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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Substance Use in Aged Care - Erin Flint
On this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we welcome special guest Erin Flint to discuss a crucial topic: Substance Use in Aged Care.
Erin will share insights into the prevalence of substance use among the elderly, the unique challenges they face, and effective strategies for identification and intervention.
We’ll explore the impact of substance use on the physical, mental, and social well-being of older adults, and discuss ways caregivers and healthcare providers can offer better support.
Join us for this important conversation to understand how we can improve care and outcomes for our elderly population dealing with substance use.
QUESTIONS:
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work and research
3. How common is substance use in aged care?
4. Could you define use vs abuse and what the focus of your research was?
5. What are the more common substances that older adults tend to use?
6. How do those substances affect older adults compared to younger individuals?
7. What are some of the reasons you've found that older adults use substances?
8. There is research showing a higher rate of substance abuse in neurodivergent individuals. Have you noticed this in your research?
9. What are some things that aged care facilities and government could do better on this topic?
10. Where can people connect with you and your work?
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler.
Speaker 2:Join with my.
Speaker 1:Oh, I forgot to turn the repeat off. Oh well, anyway, you're listening to Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler. Join with my main man, photon John Kev. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:I had an excellent day today. I woke up like body woke me up at 6.30 and I was just immediately in hyper-focus mode. Really.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:I made a list this afternoon of all the things I got done. I'm like, how did I even find time in a day with time?
Speaker 1:Oh, you just froze up there, kev? Oh no, you're there, You're back. Yes, sweet, oh good man, that's good. That's good, it's good when you can just wake up and be ready to rock and roll, you know.
Speaker 2:You know, for me this morning.
Speaker 1:Right, I slept in because it's a public holiday here in Sydney. So I was like, oh cool, I was able to sleep in. So I was like, oh cool, you know, I was able to sleep in. But you know, those days when you know you can sleep in but you don't yeah, you know what I mean. It's like I'm going to sleep in tomorrow and then it doesn't happen. So I was like I slept in, so I was like I feel really good, but I know tonight I'm probably not going to be able to get to sleep until like really late and then try to wake up early tomorrow and be like, oh man, I've got no sleep. But anyway, we should really get stuck into this today. We've got a really good topic that we're talking about and a really cool guest coming on. So today, what we're going to be talking about is substance use in aged care with special guest Erin Flint. Erin, how are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm really good. I'm wishing I had some of John's hyper focus, though Hyper focus I'd have to grab some of that, yeah, yeah, yeah, not a problem.
Speaker 1:But look, thank you so much for coming on, coming on. You know, I think this. When Fodor and John came to me with this topic and said, look, man, I know this person who's doing all this research and that into this topic, I was like, oh wow, that's interesting. So, you know, thank you so much for coming on. We're definitely really keen to talk more about it. But before we do what we might do, we might do a bit of a shout out to anyone who's listening. So, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube, linkedin. We're also available on all platforms where you listen to your podcast. Also, too, please remember to subscribe, rate us, do everything to help with the algorithm so more people can listen to us and check out all the cool people who are coming onto our platform, to our podcast. Vote on, john.
Speaker 2:You'll add that one today, brother yeah, yeah, I'll double down on that algorithm stuff. At the moment, I know there's some some seismic shifts going on with most social media, including YouTube, so it really does help when people actually interact with the video rather than just watch it.
Speaker 1:But, obviously.
Speaker 2:Thank you for watching.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. Hey also too. And before I forget this, vote on John. It's our 50th episode, everyone. Awesome, it's our 50th episode Every Awesome. It's our 50th episode, every time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought it was only 49 last week, but remember we had to remove one. For some reason it was showing that, oh yeah. Yeah, so we're actually at. This is our 50th episode, so congratulations, photon.
Speaker 2:John.
Speaker 1:Eric, congratulations for being our 50th episode. So congratulations, photon, john. Eric, congratulations for being our 50th person on.
Speaker 3:I wish I did have a wine with me right now. Yeah, we probably should. Yeah, we probably should have A little party hat.
Speaker 1:I wish I could have. You know if anyone from StreamYard, who we do all this through, has listening right now. I wish we could have buttons that you could press that like shoot off things across the stage or make noises or something like that but also, too, for all of our listeners as well. We've got our sponsor, neurodiversity Academy, so if you want to check out more of what's going on with the podcast or what we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy so if you want to check out more of what's going on with the podcast or what we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy, please check us out at neurodiversityacademycom Also, too.
Speaker 1:Just a little bit of a shout out before we get started Warning some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. You actually must have cut off. I probably need to add a little bit more there, but you get what I'm saying there. Also to any listeners we have please ask any questions through the comments there while we're on the live platform.
Speaker 2:Nice man, that was a lot that was a lot to get through there, right man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did all, right, hey all right, cool, but we better get on to the main person, erin. So thank you so much for coming on, but please share with us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:We'd love to hear about you with us a little bit about yourself. We'd love to hear about it. So, firstly, it's such an honour to be here. As I was saying before, I feel like a little fish in a big pond and when I was asked to do this, I was like me, like who this girl? And so I really am so honoured to be here, am so honoured to be here. About myself I'm 35. I am a cat, mum to a 16-year-old boy, very spoiled 16-year-old cat boy. I study social work, so I'm in my final year of a Bachelor of Social Work and I'm doing my honors, which is what this project is, which is why it feels so weird, because it's such a little project but it's so big. So yeah to me, and you know what?
Speaker 1:and and I do want to say a few things right now you said I was I was surprised when you asked me to come on to the podcast, and I think the best thing about getting people like yourself is that you're real, you know, this is the type of people we want on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:You're real, you know, you live this, you live and breathe it, and I think that's what makes a lot of our guests um so awesome you know so definitely having real people on and sharing those experiences, plus also, too, with the work you're doing there, or and all the research work. This is important work, so, you know, being able for our listeners to be able to, to hear what you're doing, um, you know, from your perspective, especially based on the research, that's key.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So no, thank you so much. But in saying that, tell us a little bit about your research. We'd love to hear about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so I'll kind of take you back. I guess I like to tell people why I'm doing this. I guess I like to tell people why I'm doing this. Um, and I started working in aged care 2006, I think it was and I spent 17 years in that field. So I I think that now that I've I really reflected on it today and I think that my neurodivergence was kind of conducive to that field, because I felt with dementia specifically for quite a long time and the creativity that I had when it came to managing behaviours in dementia was unreal and I never thought about it.
Speaker 3:But really I think my neurodivergence and my character really played into that, because I have to tell you this story. I tell everyone this story. But I had a guy who he would not go to sleep until he'd spoken to his daughter on the phone and he was so Scottish, like really, really Scottish, and this daughter didn't really want to borrow him. She was like nah, call someone else. So every night I would run to another cottage, get on the phone and pretend to be his daughter in the worst Scottish accent you've ever heard in your life but, if I didn't do that he wouldn't go to sleep and he'd be dosed up on sleeping pills and and all sorts.
Speaker 3:So I just I don't know, it was a cute little reflection. Today I thought, yeah, that was like I was so creative with that stuff, like I really so anyway spent a long time in aged care, loved it, couldn't get away from it. But I had kind of dreams to do more. And you can't really grow in aged care unless you take the nursing route and I didn't want to slash.
Speaker 3:I'd also had a bit of lived experience with substance use myself and that made things difficult, had some charges that were associated with that substance use from a long time ago and it made it really difficult for me to kind of move forward in life and get what I wanted to get, um. So I eventually went into social work, which is super cool. It's definitely my my zone, um, and through social work I so I ended up doing my first placement last year at a harm reduction drug and alcohol facility, and so I'd never really I didn't know that harm reduction existed, um, but it's more or less an alternative to sobriety models and, you know, you think about uh, there's someone that uses substances, what do they? What do they do if they want help? You go to rehab or you you know, but I'd never heard of this harm reduction thing, um, where it's just kind of meeting people where they're at not pushing abstinence down their throats, not, you know, giving people clean equipment, being there to just listen, so that that kind of that was just a dream.
Speaker 3:I spent a year with them and during that time the idea of doing my honours kind of came up and I was like no, no, I couldn't, I could, never, I couldn't. I'm not that girl, but my one of my incredible supervisors. I was on a meeting with her about something else and she was asking me about myself and I told her a bit about what I've just told you both and she said I really want to do a study on older people and substances. And my mind just went like what? Like that's my two things, like that's my two things, like that's my two passions combined into one, like I have to be a part of that. So, yeah, then the Honours thing kind of came up and she was doing a different project, but I put my name down for it.
Speaker 1:You know what? Sorry, yeah, you know what. Sorry, yeah, you know what it's. It's so interesting when, um, you know, you were saying that, uh, and I'm assuming you had some problems with substances at one point. Is that correct? Yeah, um, and it's so interesting how sometimes we can have a problem with something but we can then turn that problem into a positive, which we can then create the next chapter of our life, and it's sort of like, um, we can, um, definitely.
Speaker 1:It's just interesting how it works sometimes these negative things that happen in our life and not necessarily negative, but maybe at some point of time maybe we did see it as a negative, um, well, don't get me wrong. You know I used to have a bit of problems with substance, um, back in the day, um, and, but back in the but, you know, and it was interesting you were talking about it before how you were dealing with certain people who you know were struggling with, you know, using it or whatever, and you needed clean equipment and stuff like that. You know it can be very difficult at that point of time to just quit cold turkey, you know, but sometimes, when you've got these great environments and other people around you who actually understand it or have been there done. That can definitely, I suppose they've done that can definitely, I suppose, inspire or help people to maybe want to change that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Definitely.
Speaker 2:I think you know all three of us have had previous substance issues. You know I remember myself feeling a big sense of shame around it and I knew that that sort of everyone coming at you know I remember myself feeling a big sense of shame around it and I knew that that sort of everyone coming at you going you need sobriety immediately right now, go to rehab kind of environment didn't help me at all. It made me, you know, hide.
Speaker 1:Well, do you know what? Well, do you know what? Right, like it's funny, you say that all this shame and that, but I think for me, back in the day I didn't see it as a problem. You know, I think when you think of maybe someone who has a problem with drugs or alcohol or whatever type of addiction they've got could be gambling, sex, whatever it is right you don't see it as a problem. It's hard to explain, but I suppose for myself I always thought that someone with a problem is someone who's like a junkie, all that.
Speaker 1:But if you're doing stuff, if you're like I remember back in the day, like really craving to get home just to be able to smoke a bong or whatever, like that, and I was just so angry if I couldn't get that type of stuff, but I didn't think, oh man, I've got a problem, yeah I mean. But now you know I don't need that, I don't need to, I don't crave that type of thing. Um, but it was so hard to see beyond that type of thing back in the day, if that makes sense, I think it was more once I had sort of gone oh, I want to build a career and to build my career I need to distance myself from this. Then I saw how much of a problem it was, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:I think also like defining what a problem is for someone. I think that that's a lot of the time that is. The problem is that, like society is so quick to label what is and?
Speaker 3:isn't a problem and what defines? And there is a question coming up. I hope that you ask it because it's real good, but just what defines it being a problem? And like does ask it because it's it's real good, but just what defines? What defines it being a problem? And like does the person think it's that? Does society think it's that? Who? Who's actually saying no, this is a big problem you know, like it's um, yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you say that as well, because I speak to and obviously, with a lot of the work I'm doing in the neurodiversity space, I'm coming across a lot of people who struggle with, say, social anxiety or you know, lots of different things. Now, you know, we're seeing that medical marijuana is becoming readily available and it has so many great uses, right, and it's so interesting when I'm speaking to these people that it's like they're afraid to want to be open about it because they're afraid of the judgment and that about it. You know, and once they sort of, I can pick up on it and I'm like, oh yeah, this and that on it and I'm like, oh yeah, this and that, rah, rah, rah, you can just see the whole oh, because they're like you know what it actually helps me and I feel not ashamed, but I feel like you know it helps me and that's good. But it's hard to explain that to people sometimes.
Speaker 3:I think that's tied to the stigma that's kind of put onto any substance use drug use and, I think, the illegality of it as well.
Speaker 2:Which came with decades of propaganda.
Speaker 3:Exactly, but, like, even though it's legal now to be prescribed, it, it's still got that tarnished reputation of an illegal drug that we shouldn't be having, you know. So it's it's societal expectations and the way that people talk about things that go, oh no, like. I brought it up to my mom the other week. She's got really bad tremors and she's taking all these medications and I went what about thc? Like, have you? Would you consider that? She's like oh no, no, oh no, can't do that I was like yeah, it's actually actually it was interesting.
Speaker 1:The person I was speaking to, um, was telling me about tremors and stuff, and they were telling me that it's still got tremors and that, but it's calmed it so much more than what it used to. You know, and if something can work for you, why not? Definitely, definitely Take the stigma out of it. Totally, totally. Anyway, we should move on Great conversation, by the way. So how common is substance use in aged care?
Speaker 3:yeah. So I'll preface this with two things. The first one is that, uh, I only did a very small study for my my research project, um, so hard to say. But also the data that's out there, so the data that I kind of drew on in my literature review. It's all government data. So what we found was that ages in the age cohort of 50s, 60s and 70, they're most likely to drink daily right now, which shocked me. But in this data, in this stuff, it comes up from census data, it comes from the National Drug Strategy household data. Household data they're not capturing the people that are household data. They're not capturing the people that are institutionalised, so in jail, in hospital, homeless. They're not capturing residential aged care.
Speaker 1:You know, like it's Just a small margin type of thing and they're going, they're basing everything off that small margin type of thing Definitely.
Speaker 3:But if that's saying that there is an increase and we're not capturing all of these populations that do it's, it's pretty inherent that substance use goes hand in hand with some people that go to jail, with some people that are homeless. Like how many more are out there, you know like? So it was same with illicit drugs. The age is 50 and over. It has significantly risen from 2001, the percentage of people in those age cohorts that are and again, it's self-reported data- it's a piece of real comfortable.
Speaker 2:Is that generational at all? Is it, you know, like as the 60s generation ages and then the 70s generation?
Speaker 3:That's what I've found in the research that I've kind of been looking at is that it's the baby boomer generation. I mean they're hitting that age now where they're starting to, and I mean I can't generalise, right, like I don't want to generalise and say, oh, we're the baby boomers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's something that is more common in that generation, and nursing homes just aren't prepared for it so that was kind of yeah, how I do. You know what?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know what else was interesting you said this just before that, like, um, from ages 50 through to I forget what age you said, but there can be big drinking problems and stuff like that or excessive drinking. And you know, I remember some of my parents' friends when they got to retirement age and all of that. They had moved to certain places and, you know, their marriages split up because and I found it was more probably the husbands rather than the wives that they were just drinking all the time. You know, Did it come down to boredom or I don't know you know.
Speaker 1:But you know what else I sort of found as well with a lot of these people oh, I'm going to retire, I've got nothing to do. What I might do for a hobby, I might start making my own beer or I might do. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Exactly exactly. I think about my parents who have three to four gins every night. They love a gin, they just love it. And if, from what I've discovered, if they were to go into a home tomorrow, I wouldn't do that to them. But if I, if they did that, depending on their resources, how much money they've put into the home, which home? It is what the, the management says, what staff says can they have it in their room? Can they have a bottle of jack in their room? Probably not. It's probably going to be locked in the nurse's station and divvied out to you. So that's, that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm getting better myself. No, no, no. But it's interesting because let's say, let's say, for example, I'm a way older gentleman and for a long time I've been drinking and all of that. Now I need to go into age care because maybe I've got dementia or something like that. You know, it's it's almost like they're going to go into withdrawals. Do you know what I mean? It's like cold talking, it's cold turkey, sorry, you know. So that can also be, uh, a problem within itself, because now you're, or even say, the nurses in there are fighting against someone who's who needs that, if that makes sense and they don't have the skills to be.
Speaker 3:Uh, first of all, telling someone just to stop to get into a facility, that's which is what's happening. So people actually aren't getting in the door if they disclose that they use substances. It's too hard, they're a problem child, which is blowing my mind. There's a lot that I found that I'm like I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but it's still like, oh okay.
Speaker 1:And then it's probably being put back onto the families then, because it might be like oh, we can't get dad into the aged care facility here, so he's going to have to go live with Kev. And then Kev's like oh man, you know, I don't have the time to be looking after dad and you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or they end up homeless Like there's so many. It's just wild. There's more research that needs to be done, for sure, but how common it is is, I think it's very underrepresented in the data, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And also too. Actually, we'll go on to this next question, because I think this will sort of talk a little bit about what I was sort of wanting to carry on with. But could you define use versus abuse? Sorry, could you define use of substances versus abuse and what the focus on your research was? So obviously there's a difference. So use might be like man I need to use it, and what the focus on your research was. So obviously there's a difference. So use might be like man, I need to use it because I need it to live. And then you know, abuse is obviously, you know, using too much of that type of thing. But can you clarify that a little bit more?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love this question. So actually. So, as I was saying before, what constitutes abuse? Like, who makes the rule to say, oh no, this much a day is abuse. Or one person's abuse may be the next guy's recreational limit. You know what I mean. So for me, I tackled this well in my personal life and in my professional life.
Speaker 3:I work from a real anti-oppressive framework and that's the framework I used in my research. And when we're thinking anti-oppressively, we're really looking at power, um, first and foremost, and how power is played out, uh, from, you know, the big people down to the, the little groups, and we're looking at language. And so for me, I don't talk, I don't, it's substance use. For me, it's no matter what scale you're on, where you're at, it's substance use. Once you start, you know, saying or dependency, or misuse or like, I just find it really hard to gauge. I don't know. It's part of my like framework was kind of really highlighting that I'm flipping my notes over Just really highlighted that the language that you use around substances can actually destigmatise this sort of stuff. I think the word abuse has so many negative connotations to it and if you start saying, oh, you know that guy's a substance abuser. Yeah, I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Like what?
Speaker 1:Well, I would, I would say, like it would be not, that it's I don't know. It's hard because we're not in your shoes, Totally.
Speaker 2:Do you know?
Speaker 1:what I mean. We're not, it could. Maybe it could be like if we look at let's look at neurodiversity, for example, and there's these different people can sometimes see it on different scales.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, maybe stuff like that, but I really couldn't answer the question properly because, I definitely agree with what you say because you know, I think, as well with you know you know drug use and all of that type of stuff, um, it it is a problem. You know it can be a problem at times. So, um, and sometimes you know people are trying to it's. I think sometimes people see, say, people who are struggling with with some type of use of something and think that you can just stop like that, where, like, there's so much involved with getting to that point of you know being able to stop, I think, you know, the biggest thing I think I found was, let's say, smoking weed. You know, the thing was I remember I didn't, in the end I didn't even really like the feeling I got from smoking weed, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:But I loved ripping bongs. That was what addicted me. Type of thing, it like I crave that you can't just like you can't like put nicotine in there, or like tobacco, sorry and rip bongs. It's just not the same if that makes sense, you know so that was sort of like the addiction I had, type of thing, um, not really the the drug itself. I wasn't really in the end, I just hated it. But yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was interesting how it sort of worked, yeah, I I think, um, you know, uh, obviously there are drugs you know personally, being a former user of intravenous drugs, heroin and whatnot um, where this doesn't apply, but it's. I view it a lot of the time like, like, um, poison, you know it's, it's the something that isn't poison can become poison depending on the dosage. You know the regularity, um, or the amount. So I think, um, yeah, I think use becomes a sliding scale that's much more, much more useful than going well past this point. It's now abuse and all the, all the negative connotations that come along with throwing that word at someone, uh, when you might actually be wrong about where they're at on their own exactly entirely functional and I guess, like just saying substance use, it could that that just covers that whole scale.
Speaker 3:You know, like it covers it without putting that that negative word like oh, you're misusing, misusing it or you're dependent on it. Substance use kind of encapsulates all of it, but it's just a less stigmatised way, stigmatising way of saying, you know, just referring to someone that uses substances.
Speaker 1:And in saying that, I think it could over time you know, I don't know the word I'm looking for, but using that term, maybe more people will come on board with that and understand it better. Um, you know, some people just don't know what. They're sorry, I just wanted to share this because someone wrote through and they said this is fantastic, erin, I'm so, so proud of you. Use, not abuse. Use not abuse. I'm fully supportive of your anti-oppressive approach and anti-stigmatising language around substance use. I'm so excited to read your completed research project. I'm assuming this is probably someone who knows you.
Speaker 3:If I know who it is.
Speaker 1:Because it's coming up LinkedInin users, so linkedin user, unless that's your real name. Linkedin user please um feel free to call back and um, we could give you a shout out if you like, but thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Yeah, it is like it, it's it's a big thing, I think, as I said, working anti-oppressively. There's just so many like I'm definitely not calling people out, but even the word junkie, I'm like ooh, ooh, like it's just. And again, like you said, if you're not in that context, it's really hard to know. But I used to call people junkies and now I'm like, oh, really hard to know, but I, I used to call people junkies and I'm like, oh, like it's just it, it's just the, the words, words that we use give power to oppressing groups. And oh, another person.
Speaker 1:We got another person oh there you go. Uh, is it maria? Maria james is that her name, yeah it's about choice and control and dignity of risk of risk, self-determination and being person-centered 100 thank you so much for the, for the comment there.
Speaker 1:Um, no, also awesome chat. I'm really enjoying this because you know, like, even when I like I hated back when I was younger, like yeah, I did smoke a lot of weed and drink a lot but I had dreadlocks all the way down to my ass and stuff like that and people, well, they assumed correctly that I, they assumed I, had a drug problem and I did at that point. But, like you know, I hate how that sometimes is referred to as that person's got a problem. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but, like you know, like we're seeing and you know what as well, right, like when I first went to Amsterdam, you know, obviously weed and a lot of other stuff is legal there, and I think, like my whole perception of getting there, I was thinking, oh my God, you know what's this going to be like, you know, but when it's in a controlled environment and it's legal, and that it actually feels a lot cleaner, if that makes sense or I don't know, it was like it was just normal. It was like the pubs that you go to and see, like you go for a drink or whatever like that, and I thought there's no problems at all. It's actually a lot better because there's actually rules in place and, you know, people don't seem to abuse those rules.
Speaker 3:I guess it's also like because it's legal there, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it's taking the criminality out of it, as we were saying before, like it kind of that helps to lift the stigma, when you stop viewing everything as, oh, it's so illegal and it's the worst thing you could ever do and you'll go to hell for that. Like as you said, like maybe you felt the stigma lifted. Yeah, it's so societal.
Speaker 1:And it's actually interesting because a lot of European countries, and I think like and when I mean European countries, I'm talking like countries like, I think like Switzerland and the real, like the Scandinavian one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the real rich countries, they're like legalizing things like cocaine and heroin and all of this type of stuff and they're actually finding that because they're legalizing it. They're obviously not legalizing for people to deal it like illegally. It's still illegal to. You know, for Kev to go out and not say Kev Wood I'm just using you as an example Kev, go and sell to some people down at the train station or something right, but like it's actually being sold in, say, chemists and stuff like that. It's controlled, it's clean, people know what's in it. So a lot of like the's clean, people know what's in it. So a lot of like the and also too, I think, they're able to prescribe them the right amount. So deaths are obviously you know there's not as many deaths and all of that, and you know maybe they're finding as well that people are, you know, getting off it because you know they, yeah, lots of little stuff.
Speaker 2:Not to mention the violent crime. Drug-related crime rates went way down. Yeah, it kind of puts a lot of those people out of business.
Speaker 3:yeah, it's what you were just saying about, you know, chemists being able to prescribe certain amounts. I'm going to do a little plug here, if that's okay. Yes, please.
Speaker 1:Are you a chemist?
Speaker 3:No, okay, no, there's a place I used to work. Queensland Injectors Health Network down in Bowen Hills are now doing drug testing, so you can actually bring in a sample of the bag that you've got for Friday night and get it tested and see what the strength is and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So I think, that that's helping.
Speaker 1:And I think we were seeing a few music festivals were starting to do that as well, and a lot, especially over in Europe, were doing stuff like that as well, and it was interesting to see what they were actually detecting. But, you know, if it's saving lives because this is the thing that people don't realise right, is that okay, you could take something off someone, but they can easily go get that somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? But they can easily go get that somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? So, if we're going to play that game, you know why don't we have things in place?
Speaker 3:Well, it's giving people choice too. I think, like, get it checked, find out what's in it. Do you want to take it, or do you want to? What do you want to do with it? Like, do you want to take it back?
Speaker 1:to your dealer and punch him because it's not what he said it was. I Do you want to take it back to your dealer and punch him because it's not what he said it was?
Speaker 3:I don't know yeah maybe, but it's really good it's giving choice.
Speaker 2:It's giving safety. Yeah, I think you know I talked earlier about, you know, sort of feeling shame and stuff when I was younger and it's we forget that. You know drug use goes back pretty much to the dawn of humanity. If prohibition was going to work, I think maybe somewhere in the first thousand years maybe it might have worked. Totally, I think, if we have to face the reality. People, you know this is going to happen.
Speaker 1:We need new approaches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, harm reduction is really the best approach, I think.
Speaker 3:Totally, totally, totally. Yeah, harm reduction is really the best approach. I think, um, totally, totally. But the the focus on the research. I just realized I totally missed that, but it was. I had to narrow it down to just illicit drugs and alcohol. I had to take out smoking. I mean, substance use would encompass, like alcohol, all the illicit drugs, cocaine what about vaping? Vaping um steroid use. This was a whole big thing and I'm doing a little honors project. Um, I say little, but it's gonna be about 20 000 words and I want to cry because it's still not finished, but that's okay.
Speaker 3:Um, I had to, I just had to have you heard of chat gpt I would never. Oh, it freaks me out, I know what you mean. I know what you mean, totally, totally so it was, um, and because it's just a little project, I was uh interviewing staff in residential aged care facilities to see what the current climate is.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, no, that that's heaps cool, that's heaps cool. So you know, moving on from that, what are the more common substances that older adults tend to use? So we sort of spoke a little bit about alcohol we're talking about, you know, is there, say, prescription medication that's maybe being used a bit more than what it should be, or so also knocked that one out, because it was too big for my.
Speaker 3:But I believe, there is, but that was. I kind of took that out of my paper. But in the data again it's self-reported. We don't know if, like if I'm smoking DMT, can you smoke DMT? I think you can. If I'm on DMT five days a week, I'm not going to report on my National Drug Strategy household survey that I'm taking DMT every night, you know. So we've just got to remember that the data it leaves a lot to be.
Speaker 1:It's hard to get like an exact answer.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, but typically, from what I found, marijuana and alcohol are the top for people in older age cohorts, but there's also a. So I've used a lot of information from a great organisation called Aval and they did a paper a few years ago and it outlined that there's actually a really big community of people over 50 who are using either opiates or uh on, like prescribed opioid substitution therapy. So there are cohorts out there that are going through this, but, again, not necessarily picked up in mainstream data. Um, and in my research, what I found was that it was all alcohol, pretty much. So I had one participant out of six who told me that there's a guy that tries to keep bringing a bong into the nursing home, which I love.
Speaker 3:I was like go ahead um but, they didn't love it very much, so it was again not not surprising to me, but still it just made me a little bit angry. Like are people to do? Where's the education to tell older people that you can get a script for marijuana? Now? That guy could be doing it all above board if someone was educating him on that, but no, they're just reefing the bong off him and he's getting another one.
Speaker 2:It's some of that, you know. We talked about how it's generational and the generations that are ageing now are from the 60s and 70s and whatnot. Is age care not necessarily moving with its demographic? Are they still treating them like you know, the greatest generation? Well, I don't know that it wouldn't have been a problem, but assuming you know they were a bit straighter, is that part of the issue?
Speaker 3:I believe so. So, interestingly so, nursing homes are typically run on a biomedical model. So, and the ageist idea of society is that you start to get older, you don't have any quality of life left. So you go into a nursing home. People look after you, you've got everything you need there, that's all. There's not a big focus on quality of life and crazily.
Speaker 3:So as a future social work practitioner, I know that social work is everywhere, it's in every field you could imagine, but there's hardly any in residential aged care. So it was such a struggle to find participants who were social workers, because I think in data that I found there was like um 15 social workers in residential aged care in Australia. And I mean this is, this is a career that is advocating for the people they're working with, they are empowering them, they're fully supportive of autonomy and choice, they are completely worried about the psychosocial concerns of a person. Yet they are nowhere to be seen in residential aged care facilities. So I think that ageism plays into that. I think that the paternalism of aged care facilities and you come in here, you go by our rules it's not really like a home, it's more of like a you know.
Speaker 1:Institution.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You come in here. You follow our rules. If you drink too much, sorry, but you can't come in Crazy. It's a giant share house. I mean it's tricky, but we've got to make it happen.
Speaker 1:I was going to say a hostel, but like when I lived in hostels, man, that was pretty flowing with everything.
Speaker 3:Maybe that's what we need. It's super interesting, maybe that's what we need.
Speaker 2:It's super interesting. You know we say hostels, you know jokingly, but older people still want to have a good time. You know there was a bunch of people their age and some of the restrictions I've seen, and admittedly I don't have a lot of experience, but in aged care I would not. You know if I'm still kicking at that age. I want to have a beer with my friends. You know who lives down the hall, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But it's such a like the people I've spoken to it's such a wild concept to them. When I tell them what I'm, what I've been focusing on, they're like wait in the nursing home, like, and I'm like, yeah, why not? They're like wait. Even my gp was like, oh, I never thought about that and I was like, oh god, bit of a worry.
Speaker 1:You're a gp and you haven't thought about this you're not picking up on, like your older rep, like your older patients and stuff like that how much of a gap this which scares me, it puts a lot of like.
Speaker 2:I feel so much pressure because this it's kind of undiscovered, like there's no research in australia about this and age care needs to get their act together before millennials get there, because well I mean interestingly, and I hope I'm not going too far off topic no, it's all good.
Speaker 3:We just had the Royal Commission into Aged Care Quality and Safety recently, which was done on the back of all these horrible televised reports of abuse happening in residential aged care facilities, among other things, and so they've put together all of these documents, they've got the final report, and what interests me the most is that they've put together all of these documents. They've got the final report, and what interests me the most is that they've got you know, it's all about self-determination and autonomy and choice and dignity and person-centered care. It's oh, that's exactly what it's all going to look like. But in they've got this, this part where they talk about target populations, and they've got LGBTQIA+, they've got the homeless populations, they've got refugees, but there's nothing in the ginormous report to talk about substance use. So you've got this data telling you this is happening and they've completely missed it. Everyone seems to have ignored it or glazed over. But these nursing homes are not ready and they are turning people away that need to access care and still in this giant report it hasn't been addressed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. Hey, interesting. You know the thing is well too right like I've listened to a lot of podcasts recently and you know we're seeing that a lot of treatment for a lot of stuff. You know they're using stuff like lsd, siliposybin, um, all of this stuff which has actually been really effective. So you know, especially when you're talking about the GP not knowing about that stuff, that's interesting as well, because you'd think that people there would be sort of like, oh yeah, well, there's this new study, maybe this will help you with this or this will help you with that. I'm pretty sure they're using like, say, lsd. I'm pretty sure they're using like, say, lsd, um, and and it's probably being used in a different way than say hey, here's a tab.
Speaker 1:Um, go into your field and good luck to you. You know, yeah, it's in a different environment, a whole bunch of things, and it's almost like with, uh, you know, cbd and THC and all of that type of stuff. It's being used differently and the feeling from it is different as well. You know, you're not necessarily getting high off it, um, it might be just helping with whatever it is the element you might have. So, you know, especially with how, you know a lot of research or you know, when I mean research, I mean tests with, say, silver, siben and um, lsd. You know, obviously this is going to be stuff that we're going to be using in the future. So, and and look, this is the thing as well.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people forget that. A lot of drugs that you know, let's say, people use recreationally type of thing, those were originally drugs that were used to be helping people. Cocaine, for example, you know, dentists used to be using that to numb people's. You know, gums and all of that type of stuff. Speed, I'm pretty sure, used to be given to housewives to help them be more motivated and stuff like that. Ecstasy used to be given to pilots. Um, in, I think, the vietnam war to um. Because, hey, kev. Well, I'm not sure if you know erin, but, kev, did you ever watch like roger ramjet? You remember that that? That card did you take it? Yeah, yeah, erin, did you ever watch like roger ramjet? Do you remember that that?
Speaker 2:that card? Did you take it?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah did you used to? Watch that and yeah remember, like so, what he used to do so he could have magical powers, and all that on energy pill spinach was that really spinach? Yeah, well, what the hell is that?
Speaker 2:I have no idea my whole life is suddenly making sense through the lens that I grew up on. Yeah, uh, just just uh. I'm aware we're sort of starting to run out of time a bit. Um, I would really like to get to the one question we have around, neurodivergence specifically uh, okay, yeah, which way, let me just ah, yeah okay, yeah so there is research showing a higher rate of substance we should have used.
Speaker 2:Use then now that we've had, like the had the uh the conversation let's rename it problematic substance use cool that you picked up on that though you could have just read it, yeah I'm learning, right, I'm learning, we're changing
Speaker 1:I'll read. I'll read it back out. So, uh, there is research showing a higher rate of substance use in neurodivergent individuals. Have you noticed this in your research?
Speaker 3:so with my cohort that I'm kind of looking into? Definitely not, because I guess um like I know it's. I mean, we've all spoken about our own experiences with substance use and being neurodivergent. This is just three of us, but it's three for three, so it's definitely um, definitely more common. But in in people at residential aged care level, can you even imagine how many people might be misdiagnosed or undiagnosed like?
Speaker 1:can you even and would not even think that they would even come under this umbrella.
Speaker 3:Would not have even entered their or their doctor's minds, because I guess ADHD on its own was not even put in the DSM until I think the 60s or something and it was a children's disorder, and I think it was the 90s that it became like recognised as an adult disorder. But they're not going to go around the nursing homes and go. We should probably do an assessment.
Speaker 1:Let's do an assessment on everybody.
Speaker 2:You know. So like I hate to, think. Without armchair diagnosing? Did you have any personal experiences with people through your research? Where you went? Ah, you know, but you were dealing with the nurses right.
Speaker 3:It was all staff, yeah, so if I do a PhD, which I'm getting poked and prodded out for, it would be to actually do the the study with with the older people themselves. So check back to me if I end up doing that and I can tell you we'll have that, then we'll have dr erin flint on the show, right sorry, even unrelated to drug use.
Speaker 2:Um, I'd love to see a study on, you know, the prevalence of neurodivergence in that generation. You know, especially in aged care, that just would have. You know, they weren't just not diagnosed, there wasn't a diagnosis, or you know.
Speaker 3:Definitely. What does that?
Speaker 2:look like.
Speaker 3:Definitely. I think that's always hard too, because, like, you're looking back over your life and yeah, I don't even I would love to know what a diagnostic tool would look like for that because, like and and what?
Speaker 2:someone who's neurodivergent has been undiagnosed their entire life and are reaching the end of their life. What does that look like you?
Speaker 3:know, like I don't know, if I could, well you'd have so many.
Speaker 1:Well, you'd have so many like you. You know, if you come, if you've lived a long life type of thing, you would have had so many processes in place that you've naturally done your whole life type of thing to be able to just live every day with this. Yeah, exactly, you know, and you would have just thought that that what I mean I'm weird.
Speaker 3:There's something wrong with yeah or weird or like this is normal you? Know I? Honestly, when I read that question I went oh god, god, I can't even. I have no idea. There must be so many people.
Speaker 1:And I think that's good that you've answered that question like that, because I think it just goes to show how there is minimal research or so much research still to be done. It's like when I'm doing talks in certain parts of education, especially in higher education, and I'm like look, this is from my experience and a lot of experience that I've heard from other people the research still doesn't exist. But you know, know, you could probably be guaranteed that there is a high chance that a lot of this is correct. But I can't give a correct answer on a lot of stuff because the evidence just isn't backing it yet, because it doesn't exist exactly, and I guess people haven't had that drive to go and look into it yet.
Speaker 1:Like it's, but now, where do you start? Where do you start?
Speaker 3:Let's go do this project, the three of us. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is, it's so like you could do, like we could do I don't know research on neurodiversity for males who may start using drugs at the age of 13. You know, that's one thing. It's so broad within itself. You know we could then go hey, we want to do testing on neurodivergent females who have an addiction to shopping.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Like there's so many things that you impulse by yes yes, yes, yes, yeah totally, totally, totally, totally, and it's just it's where do we start? Where does it end? It would never end. It's such a big pool and that's the hard part of being trying to, and I think this is where it's so important to you know, for people to be sharing those lived experiences to really, so we can be like ah, okay, yeah, cool. Um, because I think as well is that when I hear certain people share things, I can say, oh man, I can relate to that, or I'm not really like that, but yeah, I can relate to that, or I'm not really like that, but yeah, I can relate to that, and you know, vice versa, type of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is really I don't know. I've found that's really important, since understanding that I have ADHD and potentially autism, that I can get that relativity to someone else or something else, because it's just always felt weird.
Speaker 1:Well, can I say right that when I do find out and have a conversation with someone who's neurodivergent and whatever that is, I always feel like I've got that connection Do you know what I mean? Like it's I don't know. Once I sort of find out and it's like, oh, wow, I feel like I've got that connection, like, oh man, yeah, this person knows exactly. And then also too and this is another funny thing some of the conversations I have with people offline, I'll tell you, not probably on, like the podcast are some really out there conversations which maybe in the real life, maybe in the real world. So I'm not that saying that we don't live in the real world, but, um, do we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know it might be frowned upon, or people like, oh, my god, you can't say that, or like, but then we sort of get and we're like, yeah, man, totally you know what I mean you just feel like you can be more open.
Speaker 1:I don't know, that's just either that.
Speaker 2:Either that, or we just say some things about oh man, do you ever experience x and and? You're a typical person looks at you like you've just spoken another language, then what?
Speaker 1:are you talking?
Speaker 2:about when you identify you're a divergent person in the room. Have you ever experienced x?
Speaker 3:yes, instant connection totally totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:All right, we might just get one more question in um what is okay, let's go with this one, and then we'll finish it off what are some things that aged care facilities? And government could do better on this topic. I think this will be good to wrap it up right where do I start?
Speaker 3:I don't know where to start okay, let's just end.
Speaker 3:So many things, so many. I think I think, before I talk about government and aged care facilities, I think as a society we need to start doing better. I think, and that's why it's really cool that we've had this conversation tonight. I hope that it does get out there to people. I think the conversations that you have and the way that discourse is kind of spread around society, I think that we have to change the conversation about older people, not just, you know, at the end of their lives and ready to go and don't have any quality of life. We need to change that. We need to change the stigma around the use of substances, because when you've got people who use substances, they get stigmatized. When you've got older people, they get stigmatised. When you've got older people who use substances, that's a double banger and they're getting extra, extra stigmatised and discriminated against.
Speaker 3:So conversations, I think that from a government level, like I said, the Royal Commission into Aged Care Quality and Safety didn't even bring up substances one time in all of the reports they've done, which blows my mind. So I think something at that level, because I mean, facilities don't listen to that sort of stuff. Anyway, they're going to do what they want to do, but if it's not coming from up there, then how is it going to kind of trickle down? There has to be communication. Like I found that facilities aren't actually giving potential residents any information about. You know, can they use substances, can they have it in their rooms? So people are pretty much rocking up to move into a nursing home and going, oh, I can't drink here. Like really, I didn't know that You've got to have that conversation.
Speaker 3:I think that we need what else? I think that the facilities need to just take accountability and go look, we've got all of these new standards that we've got to work to. We've got new frameworks. The new Aged Care Act is coming. It's all about resident rights and dignity. It's about actually taking stock of what that looks like and not going oh, you just have the right to a shelter or food. Like you have the right to make your own choices and look there's some things around that.
Speaker 3:Like sorry.
Speaker 2:Sorry if we just throw a very quick button in there, you know, provided it's not a problem, obviously. But why should they not have the right to have a bit of fun? Why?
Speaker 3:does that?
Speaker 2:need to be, you know.
Speaker 3:I guess there'd be like some kind of like risk management or something around that, where you know you kind of meet them halfway, because I do get it, there is rules. But also we need more social workers in aged care. I'll end on that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, nice, I'll end on that. Okay, yeah, nice, nice, I like that. But, erin, thank you so much for coming on. You feel a lot more relaxed now.
Speaker 3:So much it might be the Alabama that I took, Maybe maybe, maybe no, you guys were awesome, I'm so honoured.
Speaker 1:But you probably see how, like, we're just chilled and it's just a conversation, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to come back next week, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we've got a few people in the line.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we can probably get some more people back when you're further down the road with the research. Absolutely, I'll do the 100th anniversary episode.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah, maybe you would have completed your PhD by then.
Speaker 1:You know, and that should be cool. But you know what? If anyone wants to contact you or get in touch with you with the great work you're doing, where's the best place to contact you?
Speaker 3:I would say LinkedIn is probably the best place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, so just Erin Flint.
Speaker 3:You're connected, just erin flint, I think you're connected with me?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think you're connected with me. Um, if you have a look in the linkedin um title there that we've got up on linkedin at the moment, you should be able to connect with erin there. Um. So, yeah, definitely connect with erin. Sorry, I think someone hang on. I think we've got your friend. Oh, we so do need more social workers, all right.
Speaker 1:And thank you, maria James, for all the great comments today. We love when our guests or listeners are listening through, so thank you so much, photon. John, did you have anything else before we finish up today?
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, aaron, for coming on. That was a little nerve-wracking but that was a really, really interesting topic. I'm keen to see what you did.
Speaker 3:I hope that I did it justice. I hope that I, like I didn't get my 3,000 words of notes out, but you guys helped.
Speaker 1:You facilitated a great combo you did? Didn't I tell you you won't need all of those notes? It's really good to have them. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:We want to get topics and information out there, but honestly, we're just trying to normalise conversation.
Speaker 1:You know, hell yeah, and, like I said, it's like we're sitting at a pub, you know, just having a drink or something you know.
Speaker 3:Choosing substances. Yeah, yeah, I was about to say the exact same thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you know it's just like that type of thing. But, erin, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been awesome chatting with you so good. Totally, totally. And for anyone else who's listening out there, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms or subscribe to us on our podcasting platforms. My name's Will Wheeler, join with my main man, photon John, and this is NeuroDivergent Mates. Till next time.
Speaker 3:Thank you.