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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by two neurodistinct professionals – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host, and Kevin, aka Photon Jon, an Autistic and ADHD cohost. They candidly share their personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
What is masking & how does it affect us - Shamus Hart
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we’re thrilled to have Shamus Hart as our special guest. Join us as we explore - What is masking & how does it affect us. Shamus shares personal insights and experiences, shedding light on the challenges many neurodivergent individuals face when trying to fit into societal norms. Don’t miss this enlightening conversation!
QUESTIONS:
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work
3. What is masking?
4. How does masking affect neurodivergent individuals?
5. Can masking be a useful tool?
6. There's a bit of of an "unmasking movement" happening at the moment. What your thoughts on it?
7. What have been your experiences around masking in the workplace?
8. What advice could you give to any neurodivergent people out there about managing masking in their life?
9. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of NeuroDivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, joined with my main man, photon John. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know working hard. A lot of Neurodiversity Academy stuff today, nice, good, good, good good good, good, good, good to see.
Speaker 3:Good to see. Good to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just a whole bunch of stuff. Um, yeah, just um, a whole bunch of stuff. So obviously, with neurodiversity academy, we've got um, we've put out for an advisory board and um, we've actually had some really good um candidates apply. So I've been doing a few interviews there, um, that's going to help me to develop the um accreditationsations in areas I don't know. So you know I'm surrounded by these masters, meaning you and Prateek, but I lack all this other experience. So having these people come on board is going to be so helpful. So it's been fun yeah, it has been. But I tell you what right, it's not as exciting as the guests that we've got coming on today. So what we're going to be covering is what is masking and how does it affect us with Seamus Hart. Seamus, how's it going, my friend?
Speaker 3:Hey guys, yeah great, and thank you for inviting me on the show. I think it's a really exciting topic.
Speaker 1:No problem. No problem, it's great to be able for inviting me on the show. I think it's a really exciting topic. Um, no problem, yeah, we talk a bit about it and it's it's um, yeah, it's a daily thing, you know, yeah, totally, and I think, like you know, even for for me, like when kev you know, I'm not autistic and Kev's taught me a lot about autism and I remember him talking a lot about masking I'm like what is masking? Or he'd tell me stuff, like you know, I went out with my mates and I said, look, I'm not going to mask tonight and I want you to be okay with that, am I right, ferdon John?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tried demasking for the first time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I was sort of like, well, what does that look like? You know, what do? What should I know? As like a friend maybe, or whatever. So when you came in, when you and I were talking the other week, it was sort of like you know, you're talking a lot about that, especially at work, and how you mask a lot, and I was like, oh my God, this will be such a cool topic to get Photon John in and yourself to talk about this, you know. But before we do get started, I might just do a little bit of housekeeping, just so we can. I don't know, just let all of our listeners know. And I don't know, just let all of our listeners know. So, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, linkedin, facebook, instagram, x, twitch and YouTube.
Speaker 3:Man, I stuffed it up a little bit there, man, I usually have it all in order, but I got it, I got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. But also too, if you haven't already done so, please check out all the work we're doing at neurodiversityacademycom. We've got some really cool stuff happening there. And also too, um, maybe while we're talking, some of the discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to loved one, to a loved one, or call emergency services. We are are not doctors. This is the space for sharing experience and strategies. Also, too, if you've got any questions while we're going through the live podcast, please pop it in the chat channels on our pages there, and if we're still live, we'll ask the questions or have a bit of a discussion while we're going through it. All right, I think I may. Oh, here we go. We've got a guest already. I know that one. I know that one.
Speaker 1:Thank you, joe, for saying hello, awesome, okay, cool. So you know, first things. First, Seamus, um, tell us a little bit about yourself. You've done some really awesome stuff. And um, yeah, just tell us a little bit about ourselves okay, I'll probably give you the the 10,000 foot view.
Speaker 3:So, uh, yeah, I originally got a Asperger's diagnosis well, a temporary one, I would probably say in 2007. So it was like oh, here's your piece of paper. Oh, by the way, it's adults, we don't have much to actually help you with. Here's the certificate and go on your merry way. It took me about 10 years to really kind of come to terms with it, and what actually happened was I had quite a bit of burnout and ended up getting another diagnosis in 2017, which was ASD level what excuse me? Autism spectrum disorder, level one. And then I recently got re-diagnosed again, about a year or two ago. So I'm actually ASD level two with ADHD, and the interesting part about it is that part of the reason why my diagnosis had changed so dramatically from 17 now is due to masking. So even a lot of practitioners and medical professionals professionals especially for diagnosing women are just not sure about masking and where it fits in, and there's a couple of dimensions to it. So for me, I missed out because I didn't know I was masking as much. Uh, it's not funny.
Speaker 1:Big vote on John. You were the same right brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you just described my entire life from 2007, including the diagnoses and the time they happened. So, yeah, I did my first test and, quote, failed it. You know, maybe you have Vespa, but yeah, I was sort of answering the questions as I kind of had learnt to, but not really as I felt, because I didn't realise the extent to which I was masking. You know, I was like, yeah, I've kind of learnt to deal with that, so I'll answer it this way, not, oh, actually that really bothers me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah it's an interesting journey oh sorry.
Speaker 1:So what has happened? Like you know, since, like you know, being diagnosed, all that, how has that changed for you?
Speaker 3:Ooh, I think probably the big one is, I would say, identity. It's probably the biggest one because I guess pre-diagnosis you're fitting in and for me it was a matter of world was in hard mode, couldn't work out why, like, and there was things that people could do that I thought that they're not struggling at it or maybe they are, but they're not saying anything about it. Everything from work to home to relationships, to doing things like going out and then coming home and like being totally shattered for you know, a couple of days, or just not having the medical. I guess the medical side kind of validated.
Speaker 3:Um, like, I mean, something happens, you get sick and it's like there are other underlying reasons for it. Um, like the burnout isn't burnout, it's because of you know, my cup is, yay, full and I've used more than I can, so it was like a bit of an energy sort of a thing. Um, I think it's also as well you understand, when you get an autism diagnosis, that you've been fitting into what a neurotypical world is and how that works, and then you kind of look at yourself and you go, well, who actually am I? I think that's probably the most significant thing to come out of it is that you realise that you've just, basically, there's an identity that you've made to fit into a world that's not really accommodating and not really understanding of what you need, and that's from like school to even to the workplace.
Speaker 1:And I think that's probably a neurodivergent thing as a whole, because I'm not autistic, but I look at a lot of things myself, or even when I was younger, and think, you know, I don't feel normal, if that makes sense, I know that's very not me.
Speaker 1:That was what was going on in my head at the time. I'm like, well, I feel like I don't fit into this crowd. But I feel like I don't fit into this crowd but I can, I feel like I can be amongst it. Um, and that was very difficult and, I suppose, confusing at the same time. That I don't know, I just felt like I didn't really have a like. I just know, when I was at school, I would was the one who would move around from crowd to crowd, not to stay with the one lot of people, because and I suppose when I look at it now, it's probably my ADHD, for example going okay, you've had enough of these people, they're boring, you need to go on to the next people type of thing. You're the friendly guy, yeah.
Speaker 3:I was about to the only thing I was going to add to that that you just sparked a memory. It was like when I when I was in in high school. One of the things is they talk about like peer group pressure, and I'm sitting in there and I just like I didn't get it. I'm like why would you want to do that?
Speaker 1:that really should have been an indication for being yeah, true, it probably could have been a lot like that, but you know what, like when, when you and I sat down, I think it was about a week or so or two weeks ago, whenever it was, time flies when you're having fun, I suppose, um, and you were talking to me about a lot of stuff. You know, you you've done a lot of work, but you've, um, you're really trying to get into the neurodiversity space now. So, you know, tell us a little bit about the work that you do or you're trying to work towards. I'd really love to hear a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I guess part of it is that part of the identity and self-discovery. I started a psych degree and I've also one subject left on a double, basically a double major in philosophy and applied ethics, and part of it. I just found all of these things that I thought I really wish I knew these when I was a teenager. They would have weighed. You know, things like attachment theory, attachment styles, how people interact. I really wish I kind of knew that. And it applied really well to to being a ux designer, because you're designing for you know people doing things. Um, so there was part of that which kind of was a natural um connection. But there's the other part of it. I found that there was a lot of um neurodivergent people who I had worked with and some were out, some weren't, and I found that a lot of the stuff that I had, exactly what they had. So I started kind of posting things up on Medium, just doing some random posts, doing a few workshops with places of work. A lot of it resonated a lot. It was either someone was neurodivergent or they had neurodivergent kids and they're like, okay, that's why they're doing that.
Speaker 3:Um, I had quite a few people I worked with and um really great instances that one of the the guys who I worked with had a um, had an autistic child and one of the things that they struggled with was the concept of tomorrow opposed to days of the week, and like explaining to them like tomorrow isn't logical, but Tuesday is, so it doesn't change. And that helped them. And another one as well, said you know, they're having problems after lunch with their autistic child and it was purely the sensory from a playground. They gave them headphones and that just solved them. That's like, yeah, wow, their wife goes oh my God, you're my new best friend. And I just found that there was a lot of need for it. There was stuff that for me was logical and just made sense.
Speaker 1:But can I just say on that, like you know, I'm not a parent, but I'm assuming as a parent you just wouldn't think that playing in the playground would be something that someone would be affected by, because you'd think, oh great, the kids out there having fun. You know that. Do you know what I mean? You're thinking, oh, they're playing on the swings, how could that affect them? Do you know?
Speaker 3:what I mean it's.
Speaker 1:It's a whole different and I suppose it's a whole different way of looking at it going. Well, that could actually affect them a lot because of these things going on. Yeah, speaking from experience.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking from experience, they might be having an absolutely traumatic nightmare.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but people just wouldn't see it that way. People just may not see it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean it's funny. You know you were talking before about um, uh, masking and graduate and the identity side of stuff, you know, tying into the school thing. I was the kid in grade one or whatever, just walking around by themselves at lunch because I just there was just complete disconnect with me and the other kids. I couldn't comprehend them and they couldn't comprehend me. And then, as I got older, you know, I got lonely, so I started learning oh, this is the correct way to behave, and I'm I don't have any idea what masking is, but I build this sort of series of um behaviors that I've gradually learned through very harsh trial and error, uh, the way to get people to.
Speaker 1:You know, not hate on you and um, yeah, and you think what was?
Speaker 2:um, I was just a very strange kid. I was just like there was, there was a um. I remember when we were in going to school in tasmania, there was this other kid. I think we made friends because we're just as weird as each other, because we didn't talk to each other. And I remember I was it was like grade one we were on the monkey bars and I was just, yeah, we just sort of silently agreed that we would both play on the monkey bars and you know doing a few things that were funny and then started laughing and then we just became friends, right, and it was just there was.
Speaker 2:He didn't put any of that verbal stuff on me that I couldn't navigate, you know what I mean. But then he was like one of my first friends and then I sort of figured out how to have friends and figured it out more and more. And then I became a musician in high school and suddenly people want to talk to me and so I start learning all these behaviours and I think I'm progressing and improving as a person. But I'm actually getting worse because as I do this more and more I'm starting to burn out. I start to experience burnout during my teen years quite hard, and I just think I have depression and so they put me on antidepressants, but it's not really addressing any of the root causes. I'm not learning any tools to cope with this stuff, so yeah, long-winded answer Great.
Speaker 1:So maybe that goes well into our next question. Yeah, long-winded answer Great. So maybe that goes well into our next question. Yeah, but yeah, so what is masking? You know, seamus, you know I think it's important. I know, from when I first met with Kev, I was like, masking, what are you talking about? Like I just honestly didn't get it. And when you're not from that, like, um, you know, being autistic, um, and and look, don't get me wrong I, I'm learning, as well as a neurodivergent person, that I as, especially as an adhd, there was probably a lot of times I was masking, or even as a dyslexic person, I was masking as well at times, but maybe not at the level that, say, an autistic person may, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:It's interesting you say because it's a really good segue from John what you said before, because one of the things that I could not do at school and I was tested for dyslexia, I think in about year eight, remembering that I can't read under fluorescent lights, I see the flickering. So the way that I would get around that was I'd memorize a text so I could pretend that I was readingise a text so I could pretend that I was reading and going and it wasn't to do anything like that.
Speaker 3:So I mean, I think like in a simplistic way, like people look at masking as kind of acting, but it's a little bit more nuanced and a little bit more like complex than that. There's actually quite a lot of academic literature on it that goes from everything like you can think of. But the way that I kind of navigate it is that when you think about it it's an acute stress response to social stimuli. Is that I'm getting anxious for not fitting in? How can I change my behaviour and lower that stress to fit in?
Speaker 2:Which then?
Speaker 3:increases stress, exactly, and also increases cognitive load, and I think a lot of people don't realise that a lot of the autistic behaviours from high-functioning people and I hate that term are conditioned out of them inadvertently, like I mean a good one with ADHD. It's like if we're not fidgeting, we're not paying attention.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I see what you mean, yeah.
Speaker 3:So ADHD, there is forms of masking. So like I'm ADHD, adhd as well it's like if I'm fidgeting I'm not really paying attention because I'm spending all my time to actually pretend to listen when I'm clearly not. So you can imagine how great meetings are when I'm not fidgeting. So a mask would be stopping that fidget and that's reinforced. You know parents telling their kids oh, you know, you've got to pay attention in class. So they're not actually paying attention, they're, they're just masking an underlying. So try and look as if they're doing that. Yeah, exactly. And then that kind of goes into the subconscious and like there's level of levels of consciousness when you think about masking everything from like the, the behavioral stuff, like how am I going to dress and what type of scripting am I going to say when I'm talking to someone, to mirroring behaviours, mirroring the mannerisms you know, suppressing stims and that really deep subconscious stuff that you're not really aware that you're doing but you kind of do.
Speaker 2:It's quite a complicated web of cogs happening under the hood that you don't really realise. It's not just I'm pretending to be okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know, could you? I'm just trying to think, could you give like an example of maybe what that might be? So you know, we're talking a little bit about relationships before before we came on. You know how was that, and I've sort of watched a few things on TikTok, for example. We can't like take what they say on TikTok, but the people who were sharing stuff, they weren't giving advice on masking, for example, they were more sharing their experience. So I think that was sort of a. You know it was interesting to hear. But you know, I remember someone was sharing that when they would go on dates, people would be like, would be like, oh well, you know this person, but they were masking the whole time and then once, like, that relationship gets, I suppose, more involved. You know you can't just be masking the whole time you're in a relationship. That must be incredibly hard as well, because how do you present yourself straight from the get-go, especially when you're dating and things like that?
Speaker 3:It's an interesting one, especially in the dating scene, because when you think about it, that dating, in essence it's a lot of peacocking and a lot of like falseness to it, like you're presenting an avatar of what you think yourself is. Um, but yeah, it's. It's a difficult one, especially like we burn out really quickly so we can't really mask around partners and this goes across anyone who's neurodivergent. It's just we can't mask long, and that goes for both partners as well. So you get a lot of burnout or you notice that your partner is stimming, which is a really interesting thing. So I actually read a study a couple of weeks ago and they said one of the big confusing things for women on the spectrum and masking and stimming behavior is that it's often confused as flirting so one of the give me an okay, you give me an example, really really good example of it.
Speaker 3:Yes, that a neurotypical female will often play with her hair. It's a form of preening to prove that they're like, interested, and you know they're playing with her hair.
Speaker 3:It's a form of preening to prove that they're interested and they're playing with their hair. With an autistic female, it's actually quite the opposite is that they will do stimming behaviour to lower that anxiety level, and so they might have repetitive behaviour with their hair. It might be their stim playing with their hair. Yeah, that's interesting. You interpret it as, oh wow, they're really interested when it's not the case, and that could be a problem. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a oh, here you go.
Speaker 1:Oh no, you wouldn't have any problems with that. I've been sitting away. No, you don't have any.
Speaker 2:Oh, that right.
Speaker 1:Sorry, mate, problems with that. I've been sitting away. It is me.
Speaker 2:no, you don't have any hair on that right? No, um, it's, it's. You know, it can be our whole experience, you know, um, I often try to explain my friends. The thing with autism is that not all the behaviors we might exhibit seem abnormal. They might be perfectly normal behaviors that anyone else exhibits. But the, my friends, the thing with autism is that not all the behaviors we might exhibit seem abnormal. They might be perfectly normal behaviors that anyone else exhibits. But the thinking that got us to that behavior was completely different and it doesn't mean what you think it means. Would that be sort of what you're getting at? Oh so your neurotypical brain sees the behavior and goes well, the way I know this, the way I understand this behavior.
Speaker 1:It means this, but the autistic person is just not even remotely in the same headspace you know, because I'm sorry, sorry to just step in on that one right because I remember, before I met my wife I I did go out on a date with a, an autistic person, at one point and she was playing with her hair and I was thinking, oh, I think this girl's interested, type of thing, so why that's? I honestly did pick that up, you know, and I thought, um that that was the case, type of thing it's.
Speaker 3:It's. It's interesting because it's like that's one of the big ones, especially masking, because you may not, by the time the I guess this is probably a really weird flip side one is that a lot of the times with masking, and when the person gets comfortable with them, they drop the mask and then suddenly you've got this oh my God, there's a completely different person. What's actually happened? So it's like it's a real weird sort of a vibe and it's like and and a lot of masking. It's like you may not even realize you're doing it, like even I I found out like the masking I was doing was effectively conditioned from a very young age, like oh, stop fidgeting. Like a lot of the, the stims that I would have done as a child, like they were disciplined out of me by well-meaning teachers. So it means that I was masking those autistic traits, which means that I go into a you know a to a medical practitioner and they're also contending with 35 years' worth of really effective masking and strategies to fit in with the group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:And when you start to become aware of masking and what it is and how it affects yourself, um, that can also be stressful, even if you're still doing it. You're still good at it. I was. I was just. You know, I hate walk-in barbers and every barber just just like walking. I'm like no, give me an appointment. I want to get in, get it done, get out, um. But I couldn't do it the other day, so I went in and I'm having to sit there with families and stuff and I just was very aware, in a way that I wasn't when I was younger, how uncomfortable, you know, the whole situation was for me.
Speaker 3:The waiting game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was supposed to do shopping afterwards and I just didn't. I just went home and just sort of sat in a dark corner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, crazy, crazy. And do you know what? Sometimes and this is nothing against the barbers, because they're probably trying to do customer service and all that but sometimes I just enjoy going to a barber where I don't have to make conversation.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean They'll just do my hair. So sometimes I'll try to go to a barber that can't speak really good English and they won't really talk to me type of thing, and they'll just do my hair and I'm out of there if that makes sense, it's.
Speaker 3:It's interesting you say that because there's also a cultural dimension to masking as well. So even from a cultural point of view you will see um people do that. I mean, best example of it is if you watch that border. You know the borders where they catch people going through customs and bringing in. All the people do it. So it's not just a phenomena that's just completely isolated to autism. It's like the degree of which depends on, like I guess the best way to look at it is the, the, the majority versus a minority. So part of it is is a social technique to fit in. So it's like it's interesting that you you kind of said that because it's that often kind of um affects other areas, just not autism and I don't think everyone's kind of yeah well you know what.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because I I'm and I think I think it sort of maybe works well into our next question how does masking affect neurodivergent individuals? And I think, as I'm learning more about my diagnosis and all that and even from you know, I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was like 10 or something like that I'm still learning a lot about certain things that sort of happened or what I was thinking back in those days. So, for example, I was meeting with someone on the weekend and when I speak to a lot of people I used to go to school with, I talk about how, you know, I was going through so much, I was failing, I had no real self-esteem, I felt like a loser, all that. And people are like what really, I thought you were just this popular, cool kid and I'm thinking what? That was the opposite to what I was thinking. But a friend of mine, they're like well, you must have been masking really well, because that was the image you were putting across, but inside I was a complete wreck, if that makes sense, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it totally does make sense. Yeah, I think probably. Yeah, john, you probably want to have a good thought on this no, no, no, no, no one thought I was good all good, all good.
Speaker 1:So how does masking affect neurodivergent individuals? So we've sort of touched a little bit on on it. But what's like? No, you know. So what can be the outcome of people having to mask all the time, say at work or whatever. That might be what, and we've sort of spoken about kev you'd have to go home and sit in a dark room, um, what you know? Could this cause illness? Can this cause people to go insane? I don't know. This is where it would be interesting to hear a little bit more about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's an interesting one because I think, probably the big one. When you think about it. It's the cognitive load, like for me, and to kind of like touch on what you guys said before, it's like for me I was a wreck and always exhausted. I've had glandular fever a couple of times. It's how fast I've pushed myself. So I've had serious burnout and it's purely because of the cognitive load.
Speaker 3:And if you think about it like this is that neurodivergent people tend to process about 40% more stimuli than a neurotypical brain. And there's like you can have a look on Google with a couple of these and they've got brain scans and showing how much they process. So we're not just processing more, but we're having more conscious thought, and I'm talking about different levels of consciousness here to actually appear normal. So we're over-processing. So it's, like you know, really over-revving a tuned car like a V6 or a V8 and not switching up the gears. So the amount of effort we have, there's always going to be burnout and it's not a matter of if you're going to get burnt out, it's a matter of when.
Speaker 3:And it's like. I've seen a lot of people. They get their diagnosis middle-aged, like you know, in their middle 30s to 40s, and it's because they've just exerted so much energy to appear to be normal and end up burning out and, as a result, it's like oh, by the way, the underlying reason for all this exhaustion is purely because you've you know, you're masked effectively to fit in. You're doing all these compensatory acts to fit in.
Speaker 1:Can I give you an example and I was just thinking about it then of masking as a dyslexic person right Now. I think this works in with it. Well, right. So let's say, when I'm reading, right Now, I can read really well. But if I want to try to read, to look as if I really know how to read and look good, I can sound really great. But I am not going to be picking up what I'm actually reading, you know. So if you're thinking about a kid in school who's trying to read something can try to sound like everyone else so it doesn't look like they're struggling or what. It don't get me wrong. When I was in school, I still read and I was struggling.
Speaker 1:But now, because it was interesting, I had to speak at this school on last Wednesday and there was a question saying oh you know, is it true that if you read a book more than once, you will retain all of that information? And I'm thinking no way. And then someone's like then one of the people on the panel is like yeah, yeah, that's true. And I'm like thinking. One of the people on the panel is like yeah, yeah, that's true. And I'm like thinking what the hell? And I'm thinking I could read it a million times and still not pick it up.
Speaker 1:But like you were talking about with that brain and I know the pitch you're talking about you see the I think it's the autistic brain is using like its whole, the whole brain, where, say, a neurotypical brain would just be using a slight little part of it, type of thing. And I'm thinking, and like I'm no doctor, but like what I'm thinking is that because I'm trying to focus and get everything while I'm reading, I am having to try and use all of my brain and my brain feels like it's physically like like burning type of thing. It's not like that, but it's hard to explain it.
Speaker 1:But it is yeah, it is, it's like sorry, you go well, what I was sort of going to finish off with is that, let's say, I then get um a certain technology to read that book back to me. My brain's now able to relax and I'm able to just take that information, because I'm not having to do the reading, take the information in, try to be doing it at a speed that everyone else thinks it's good, so I'm able to relax and bring more like information in and learn better, you know. So I think that could be sort of like masking in a way for dyslexic people, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. It's like you're probably a 90s kid like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, 90s, girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 90s, girl.
Speaker 3:Remember getting the old 486 or the pentium one, like the first season series pentiums. You could like play some really cool 3d games, but you'd need a 3d card in it okay. So if there was no 3d card. You could still run it, um, but you'd hear the, the fan and that like burn. That's exactly what's happening with us is it's like running without gpu. That's kind of what I was going to say before.
Speaker 2:It's just like yeah I feel the burning, the burning brain thing you were talking about. Will I get that when I'm, because I don't really have a problem with loud noises as such. It's certain types of noises, or too many, going on at once and I that's when there's so much going on in the room and I'm talking to a person trying to cut out all this other sensory noise and just hear them and not appear rude. That's when my brain's on fire.
Speaker 1:It's almost like at a networking event for me. I'm trying to cut out everything else just to focus on this person. Or I remember I was sitting down with one of our advisory board members on Saturday. I took her out for lunch and we had a bit of a brainstorming session. Man, we were going for it hard as both ADHDers. Then I just got to a point and I'm like like my brain is fried and she's like so is mine. I'm like let's stop.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? It was just. It was just like it was like that. You know you can be pompous and and I think that's like a hyper focus. You know we'll hyper focus and then all of a sudden we just go boom, boom, that's it. I need to break.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. It's like, definitely, you kind of get to the end of it and your brain's just done as much as it can. It's like a switch, it just goes off?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, and it's almost like say, if we have I don't know, let's say it's like okay, work, let's have lunch. Trying to get back into what you were before lunch, for example, it can be incredibly difficult For me. It might be like I can't get back into it for another three hours. My brain is, but then I could be back in hyper focus again. It's sort of weird how it sort of really works like that.
Speaker 2:Or if you have like a whole, sorry, just if you have a whole.
Speaker 1:No, you're right.
Speaker 2:Hyper-focus day and you kick ass at work and your boss is like, oh, that's the best, and then the next morning you can't even come in. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, totally, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:That cup emptied yesterday and I'm going to need some time. You know, yeah, totally, totally, totally. It's almost like you know. Sometimes, like Friday, let's say like by the time it gets to Friday, you're like, oh my, and everyone's like this. It's like, oh my God, the weekend, you know, and it's just good to relax and recharge, type of thing. But I remember I used to only do four days a week. I'm doing five days a week now.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, oh my God, like doing four days a week was so much better for me mentally. You know, now I'm sort of like what the weekend's over, I still like, I still feel like I'm on the recharge button. Weekend's over, I still feel like I'm on the recharge button, if that makes sense, you know. But we should move on from that. Can masking be a useful tool?
Speaker 3:that's, that's a good. That's a good one. I I think you can take two. No, no, it's. It's a good one. It's it's. I think you can take two tools from it.
Speaker 3:I think, at a fundamental level, masking when and this is kind of like from all the academic stuff it's compensatory behavior for not fitting in or a stereotype bias, depending on how you look at it. So part of it is the utility and this is from a utilitarian stance. So it's like, as an outcome, is that it's something that we do to fit in and that's more of a symptom of not having the right structures and supports and accommodations. So it's like for us to get the basic level of social well we have to mask. But then, if you look at it from the other point of view, so the antisocial version of masking and a lot of people don't look at it it's called dark acting. It's called dark acting. So psychopaths, so anything on the dark triad trait, which is psychopathy, machiavellianism and narcissism. Yeah, narcissism tends to use dark acting to get they want. So they use this acting or masking as a utility To get what they want, type of thing. Yeah, they use this acting or masking as a utility.
Speaker 1:People like us To get what they want type of thing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's to manipulate and get the outcome they want. On the other hand, we need to use it to fit in, because, I mean, we're already excluded from a lot of things and the best way we can get that is not really being ourselves, but by fitting in with the, the accepted behaviors, like you kind of said before. Like, oh, at school you thought everyone thought you had it together and you were the cool guy and all that, but it was like deep down it wasn't. It was part of driving behavior was to get that level of acceptance. Um, not a nefarious, nefarious type of thing, it was just that's what you were trying to get out of it and yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah totally, and you know, kev, what sorry I'll feed on john.
Speaker 1:What about yourself, mate? Like what was some of you know when you were like in your band and stuff, was it like similar for that, or is that more like you could be more yourself?
Speaker 2:yeah, the band got better and my vocal performances got far better when I just pulled the curtain down and stopped all that nonsense of trying to.
Speaker 2:You know, because I was like it was a very I was doing the sorts of performances that other singers were doing, but I was doing it in a way that I had studied them and I'm thinking mechanically about everything that I'm doing every minute of every song and it distracted me from quality and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So as soon as I just went, I'm going to dance around like a crazy person and stim on stage and I'm going to be really open online about the fact that I'm autistic and ADHD and possibly other things. But you know, music's easy because people are really accepting and they like different people and it made me such a unique vocalist that way that we became more popular and so it was a really good thing. But in dealing with venues, sometimes when you're touring around, in dealing with people to do with work, especially where sales are concerned, or just a short interaction it's not something I've ever forced myself to do for long periods of time, but I do find sometimes there's just a short interaction that I need to have with someone at the shop or at work and I'll just put it on the mask and because it just makes it happen easier and I need to get an answer out of them or something like that. But I just don't recommend it as a long time, all the time, kind of strategy, you know.
Speaker 1:So when I come up to visit, do you remember? I'm coming up to visit you in, like, yeah, october, november, okay, I'm glad because I would have been homeless, I could have gone to my parents house, but, um, I would have had to go all the way from Redcliffe back down to Victoria Point. But anyway, that's all another story. Will you be masking that whole time on there?
Speaker 2:Not really. No, it's. You know it's little things and it's big things, and I'm still learning when I'm masking. I still haven't fully figured it out. And you know, there's that identity thing that you spoke about, seamus. I'm still figuring that out too, but it's starting to become. You know, the more I marinate in this community and you know, the podcast has been like amazing for me.
Speaker 1:Can I ask what you mean by the identity thing? Well, you don't know what do you mean? The identity thing?
Speaker 2:Well, you get so used to masking. You do it for so many years you don't know what parts of you are you really being you and what parts of you were learned behaviors to become more accepted.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Wow. So now it's like this thing. Now there's like little things. My friends know if we're in a, a club or whatever, and because I'm fine when there's like a band on or I'm in the band because it's one moving piece of sound that just drowns out everything else, if you know what I mean. But they're trying to talk to me and all I can hear is the air conditioner two rooms away. I can just say that to them and they're like, oh okay, well, I'll finish this conversation with you later then.
Speaker 3:And they don't expect me and they understand that they don't expect me or get upset with me if I can't focus.
Speaker 1:They understand that I'm having a if I can't focus. That's interesting. That's interesting because I've sort of I suppose I've learnt a lot about myself as well in regards to once I got diagnosed with my ADHD, that I couldn't go to the shops at certain times because there was just way too many people and there's babies crying and, you know, trolleys in my way and I just couldn't be in this free for all, like you know. I just felt. But now, when I've sort of got a better idea of what time to go there or to get it dropped to my boot, I now know that works for me. Seamus, what's it been like for you? Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 3:It's funny because that was probably the big thing that I kind of got out of it and it's kind of part of the reason why I started studying philosophy. Long story short and a friend of mine knows that kind of one of my special interests is like mythology and I was like absolutely ancient Egypt crazy. When I was a child Got me the Myth of Sisyphus, thinking it was like mythology and it's not. It's basically an existentialism book by Camus Great read, by the way, and a lot of it. Like there's bits in it that it's just so on point about being autistic and especially about the sense of meaning, and it's like you kind of realise that what you're doing is none of it's for yourself and none of it's things that you actually get a lot of joy out of or any sort of meaning. It's just purely to fit in. So I'm acting this way to fit in, like that's the purpose.
Speaker 3:It's not like, oh well, you know I like doing this, so it's actually I don't like doing this and it's only doing that fitting in. I mean one of the the big ones that I got out of Camus when he said and this is the light bulb moment for me when I thought, oh, I am probably 100% autistic on this one because I really didn't come to terms to it until like 2016, 2017, that he said you'd be surprised how many people put so much energy in to be appearing normal when they're not. And I'm just like that was me. I may have muffed up the quote a little bit, but that's roughly what he said and it's like for me. It's like that identity bit, because the mask, you start doing it, you're doing it all the time and you lose who and why you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're doing it all the time and you, like, you lose who, who and why. You're doing it. Yeah, can we just, can I just take a moment to point out that amazing bloody sense of relief when not just diagnosis, but these things start to dawn on you. You're going, oh, okay, also a little bit of a grieving process as you learn. You're like things could be very different. But, yeah, that I, I, you know it's been so beautiful learning more about it and having these chats, you know, on the podcast and yeah, it just and probably validated well, probably connecting with people similar who have had a similar experience.
Speaker 1:And you're sort of like because I always, always say this I felt like when I was in school I was the only dyslexic person who was struggling and failing in school. That's what I felt. But then once I opened up, especially to some people at school, they're like oh yeah, man, I'm this. And now I'm like, oh my God, I never thought that in a million years. But then you sort of feel that like, like, oh, so it's not just me who's going through this and it's almost a sense of relief, but it's still some like some hard times back then because you felt very lonely. It was very lonely because you you didn't know you're thinking there's something not right with me. You know, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Sorry, did you have something you wanted to share, shangers?
Speaker 3:Oh no, it's just. Yeah, that made a lot of sense, what you said before.
Speaker 1:No, totally, totally Now. You know, fodor and John was actually talking about this when we were getting the questions together and he said there's a bit of an unmasking movement happening at the moment. What are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3:oh I, I. I think it's a really interesting one because I I'm probably going to say something that's probably not not in line with it. But I think it's not so much an unmasking movement, I'm saying it's more of an identity movement where it's the isolation of hey, this is not really brilliant. It's more of an existential movement, if you will. It's saying that you know autistic people exist or any type of neurodivergent person exists and because of that the movement's really identifying the behaviours from a neurominority. It's not necessarily unmasking, it's making. It's like actually educating people about them, and I think that's a good thing. Similar to what Frantz Fanon did with a lot of his cultural context of like the mid-20th century. So same sort of thing. But yeah, for me it's like I've seen all different types and I think it's still a good thing, like getting education out there about what a condition is, not just from a dsm-4 or five or whatever.
Speaker 2:Um makes a huge difference for acceptance and actually like not burning out through masking but also not not getting all of your learning on this topic from tick tock yes which is not which is not to invalidate it, but I do see a lot of influencers out there who are You're right, and look, I never disparage anyone who's not diagnosed. You know, I knew four years before I got diagnosed, but pre-diagnosis you're not always as super educated. And just people in general on social media they're not always super educated. They might get some things wrong and they shouldn't be giving medical or mental health advice. So, yeah, you've got to be careful about what, what you choose, where you choose to learn from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, yeah, and it sort of riles me a little bit because these tiktokers will build like these huge followings because I know maybe they look good in whatever they're wearing or they do some funny clips and that, but then they start becoming experts and selling books and all of this stuff and I'm like what the hell? There's people out here who's doing all this research and that, who have the evidence behind them and you know if, and it's just, it's a real problem to tell you the truth. It's a real problem, but you can get.
Speaker 2:This is what I mean by picking and choosing. I mean, um that adhd love account. You know they're kind of like what you're talking about. They've made funny videos, they're a couple um, they're really beautiful, but but they've learned a lot through diagnosis and psychologists and so they they've genuinely educated themselves and they have written a book which, um I bought for my mom who's um has found out she's all dhd and um uh, that, I know, is really genuine, genuinely helpful and full of. I can't wait to read it when she's done, you know, so it.
Speaker 2:So it can go the other way, I think you're just going to pick carefully you know who you choose to listen to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it just blows my mind that someone can do a funny video or do like I was watching a son do the other day and he was just doing something, like he was hiding behind a bin or something and going I don't know what it was, it was like an ADHD-er. When they're going out into public and they're hiding behind a bin or something like that Got thousands of views, you know, I suppose it's, you know, funny and all of that type of thing. But then you know people are like you know, all it would take is that person to then give advice and people would be like yeah, yeah, yeah, you're dead right. And then a person who does have the experience and knowledge to come in and go actually that's not right. And then, because these people have such a huge following, they'll then attack you for being wrong when you're not wrong you know what I mean, exactly, exactly, and it's even even in the space.
Speaker 3:you get quite a few people like that. They mark out their little territory and it's like they become the pseudo expert in it. And I've seen that a lot posting up on LinkedIn and Insta and it's like a lot like I think it's like a fine line and it's like even with a lot of the mainstream media shows and that I think a lot of them are a little bit dangerous on how they actually portray some neurodivergent conditions but don't actually label it so like Good Doctor, really good example of it. And to a second extent.
Speaker 3:But the Good Doctor isn't autistic, he's, he's, it's savantism. If you want to look at it, and it's like you know, I can't memorize gray's anatomy. If I could, I wouldn't be I would have been a doctor when I was 12 years old, but, yeah, that hasn't happened yeah, and you know, it's neurodiversity.
Speaker 2:You know, like all the autistic people are not the same. It's just, yeah, it's frustrating so you know, I just quickly want to say, before we move on, not to disparage any social media influences we love them, we want to have more of them on the show and we also love ready set squirrel in particular.
Speaker 1:She's amazing yeah, yeah, yeah, and, like we said, there are some good people doing some really great stuff. It's. It's like who are those people you know? Um, they're sometimes clouded behind the crap that's out there, the false crap. I should say, um, cool, cool, cool. So what has been your experiences around masking at work? Now, I know you and I spoke about this when you and I first caught up. How has that been for you, or your past experience, because I know you went through a fair bit of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's a really tough one. Probably the best example of it is I've done kind of in services for some businesses when I've worked there and I've spoken about autism. The thing that really shocks them is that one in five are neurodivergent and they all tend to ask and it's like there's this idea that there's none in the organisation and chances are, statistically speaking, you've probably got one in five Will's going to have something to say about this, I'm sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's really interesting. Yeah, and there's the other point of view is that your autistic specifically for autistic workers will be masking. So if they're not feeling safe around you, they're not going to ask the right accommodations, they're not going to get the right support and you're not getting the best out of them, and so it's got. A knock-on effect is that you've got kind of liabilities aside, you've got people who will burn out very quickly and for the amount of effort that they need to fit in where it's, I don't think that's a good way of managing anyone yeah, it's um, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1:It's actually interesting with the one in five, I had someone say to me oh look, we don't have dyslexic people at our workplace. And I'm just thinking, oh yeah, you've probably got, like you know, a handful of them sitting in your office right now. Um, it just shows how little you know, um, but that's the type of mindsets we're still living with, um. But you know what I'm saying? There are some workplaces who are really doing some great stuff on it now, um, but not all you know, and I it's just with some of the workplaces I'm dealing with at the moment. I'm just seeing it. I'm just like oh my god, like these guys have no idea users so users, so I don't know what the word like had it just well.
Speaker 1:It just blows my mind that what we're trying to work towards, some people are saying that they're neuro inclusive, but they're probably the worst ones you know and it's like, oh my god, like you've got so much to learn, but you know they have neuro inclusive quotas.
Speaker 2:Perhaps.
Speaker 1:But that's about it you're exactly right, it's true there's quotas that they do have to get with some things, but anyway, that's a whole. That's a whole. Nother podcast, um, but look, we're getting to the end. But like, what advice could you give to any neurodivergent people out there about managing masking in their life?
Speaker 3:I would probably start with a bit of reductive absurdism and just really ask why.
Speaker 3:I think that the hardest question to ask is why you're actually masking and there's, there's always an underlying reason for it. Um, you know it's, you know it can be anything, um, a lot of it. I, you know, I've unpacked over the last several years with, with um, with my therapist, and found out oh, by the way, you know, it was discipline Out of you at high school or like, and not just talking about punishment, it's like things like well, I would complain about the lights, and well, the explanation and this has gone through even to the workplace that you're effectively gaslit to believe that's not a problem, that you're effectively gaslit to believe that's not a problem. So I would say part of it is that underlying why are you masking? And it's usually social or sensory aspects to why you're doing that. Understanding that and it's not about unmasking, it's just understanding the why and I think it also gives a lot more validity to what you're actually going through and why things are so hard yeah, no, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts on that photo on john?
Speaker 2:um, something I was kind of going to say before about the, the demasking, or, uh, the re-educating is perhaps a better way to put it. Like you're saying before, seamus, but be careful just suddenly dropping the mask in a public space, that could. That in itself could be traumatic, you know, because, although you may have to take some time to get to know exactly every aspect of what it is you're doing to mask, there's likely going to be a few things you're aware of. We're just like, okay, I'm just going to stop doing all these things at once. That could be an experience. Do it responsibly, think about it carefully.
Speaker 1:Ah no, interesting, interesting stuff. Seamus, thank you so much for joining us today. Like you know, you're doing some really starting to do some really cool stuff out there. You know, if people are interested in some of the stuff you're doing, where can they connect with your work?
Speaker 3:The best place is LinkedIn, so a lot of the works I'm putting up on LinkedIn, so it's just like all these little interesting thought experiments that I've picked up through my studies and talking to other neurodivergent people.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, and you said you were going to be releasing a book and I say that that's correct. I'm actually in edit mode, I'm not saying so.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, it's actually in edit mode at the moment. Yeah, cool, so I've written. Yeah, yeah, I've done totally the autistic hyper focus thing and I've got about 200 000 words and I'm cutting that down, so there'll probably be a couple of books in in it. Um, I've got about 80 through editing before it gets sent on to the next stage what's um?
Speaker 1:what's the book about?
Speaker 3:uh, breaking down a lot of myths of autism, and I've taken a bit of a philosophical approach to it, so looking at kind of a lot of the kind of the mythology around autism, like masking, you know, fitting into organisations, some things about culture, relationships there's some really fascinating stuff going around about that. So it's really about breaking down those myths and using universal myths like Cassandra Ring of Gyges that I picked up through my philosophy course. So I thought I'd use that introduction Unleash nice, yeah, unleash it to the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Well, look, seamus. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been really cool talking to you. You know I can't wait to go to your big book launch, hopefully in. Sydney here. Yeah, that should be cool. Hopefully Photon John can come down for that. What do you reckon, Photon John? Or is he on mute? I think he's on mute. Did you turn yourself on mute, mate? I did, I did.
Speaker 2:No, that would be awesome. I need to come down to Sydney. I keep talking about it and not getting around to it. Totally, totally.
Speaker 1:But thank you so much seamus, it's. It's been a pleasure, my friend oh, thanks.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate. It's just been, uh, so much fun talking about you guys no, no problem, no problem.
Speaker 1:and for all of our listeners as well. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on loads of different places. Also, check us out on all of our podcasting platforms. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, my name's Will Wheeler, join with my main man, photon John, and this is NeuroDivergent. May it's until next time, yeah.