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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by two neurodistinct professionals – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host, and Kevin, aka Photon Jon, an Autistic and ADHD cohost. They candidly share their personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
How being undiagnosed wreaked havoc on my teens and early 20's - Myke Ireland
On this episode of Neurodivergent Mate’s we are excited to be chatting with Myke Ireland, on - How being undiagnosed wreaked havoc on my teens and early 20's.
The questions we will be covering include:
QUESTIONS:
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work
3. Tell us a bit about your diagnosis journey
4. What are you now realising about how being undiagnosed impacted you in your teens?
5. And how did it impact your early adulthood?
6. What were some positive ways that neurodivergence impacted your early years?
7. What was the catalyst for you getting a diagnosis?
8. Your diagnosis is recent, so what are your takeways so far?
9. Where can people connect with you and your work?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, joined with my main man, Photon John. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:You know, having one of those Mondays Battling executive dysfunction a little bit Lots to do, yeah.
Speaker 1:Not a lot of energy to do it. Yeah, I know how about yourself.
Speaker 1:I'm stressed, stressed, I'm very stressed dealing with workplace harassment and bullying. I'm not going to go into too much about it, but you know what? It's just not right, you know, I think this day and age, neurodivergent people should feel comfortable to be able to go into a workplace, whichever workplace, and know that they're going to be treated respectfully and in the way that everyone should be treated. This day and age, you know, bullying just doesn't, it's just not a thing, you know, and I think we need to do the best to reduce this and stop it. So I'm stressed, mate.
Speaker 2:So sorry to start the conversation. I remember one of those days too, but we ploughed through it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, I might just ask if you can turn your microphone just down a tad, brother, I can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good man, I think that's a lot better. But hey, you know what we should really get into this today? We've got an awesome guest all the way from Melbourne, a good friend of mine, mike Ireland, to talk to us about how being undiagnosed wreaked havoc on my teens and early twenties. Mike, how's it going? My friend Good.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Jens. Thanks so much for having me. This is a pleasure. I think I mentioned before um first time I've ever been a guest on someone's podcast, so yeah, no welcome, no welcome.
Speaker 1:So, um, uh, just a little bit of, I suppose, insight into, um, I suppose, mike's and i's relationship, um, when I was down in melbourne and oh, gee, gee was, how long was that about a month ago now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, about four weeks ago now, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just reached out and said look, everyone, I'm going to be down in Melbourne. Mike reached out. He's like man, come on to my podcast and I apologise, I can't remember the name of your podcast again. Real.
Speaker 3:Insight Real Insight. Real Insight I knew Insight was there.
Speaker 1:I couldn't remember the first part.
Speaker 1:But, man, awesome set-up Like your set-up is killer Like proper microphones, everything. So it was such a great experience and you know, I think any listeners here definitely check out the work that you're doing. But you know we're just so stoked that you were able to um, come on today. Um, but look, before we do get stuck into it, let's do a little bit of housekeeping, just for all of our listeners out there now. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube, linkedin, and we're also available on anywhere you subscribe to your podcasts. Also, too, if you haven't already done so, check out all the awesome work we're doing over at Neurodiversity Academy, and you can check that out at neurodiversityacademycom Also.
Speaker 1:Today. We may who knows? We may talk about some you know, maybe some distressing sort of things here, so some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Also, too, if you are listening on the live version which we are currently in um, please feel free to ask us any, any questions or interact with the show. We always love to hear from all of our listeners.
Speaker 1:Mike, you look, thank you so much for coming on. You know um where you know we've been chatting forward and backwards since, uh, catching up in melbourne. Um, you know you spoke about um, you've just gotten a whole bunch of diagnosis, all of that type stuff, and when you and I were talking, you spoke um. You know you were speaking about a lot of stuff and I don't I think there was some that you weren't quite sure. Uh, I don't think you got a diagnosis for some of them at one point there. But look, um, I reckon um tell us a little bit about yourself sure, all right.
Speaker 3:So if we start with with what I know now, and then we can go back and talk about how bad that was not knowing. But yeah, so when we caught up, when you came onto my show, it was well and truly known that I had ADHD. And that came from a bunch of just years and years of not knowing what was going on with my life. But then, particularly in the last probably three or four years, I wouldn't say that I had what you would describe as a mental break, but I definitely went off the rails a little bit. You know, to the point where, just where you know that you aren't dealing very well with life and it's not necessarily something that you're aware of, why you know, like I wasn't necessarily chronically depressed or have any sort of condition that was persisting, but there's just something not right. So, anyway, we knew that we had adhd, um, and then, as part of the follow-up to that, uh, I expressed my interest to try medication, um, but if you mention medication, the tests sort of go a little bit deeper and there's some other stuff that they like to uncover, because stimulant medication needs to be respected, um, and that's the sort of thing that you want to, you know, make sure that you're fit for so.
Speaker 3:Further tests um then revealed that I'm also, uh, asd and out of those two diagnoses ironically, you know, the adhd diagnosis was somewhat satisfying um, the asd diagnosis was the jackpot for me. Yeah, that, that was what really hit home, um, because I relate so much more to what I know about myself, exemplifying autistic traits that have really been the persistent part of my entire life, the ADHD stuff you can always see as an undertone. But I recognize, particularly with ASD, my struggles in early childhood and through my teen years, just you making friendships and understanding the nature of what good friendships are and how to maintain them and how they should feel. So, yeah, the pitch is complete now and I can title myself AUDHD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd like to say welcome to the club, but I don't actually come under the banner of AUDHD, so welcome to our photon john's club.
Speaker 2:hey, mate, hey yeah, uh, it was actually flipped for me. So I I knew for ages about the autism because my younger sister's autistic and we kind of figured it out through her diagnosis. But the adhd I just didn't didn't really know anything about because I was sort of focused on being autistic and that was how I identified. And then when the person who diagnosed me finally said, actually I think ADHD as well, I was like, oh, I better read up on this and I'm like that's actually the dominant force in my life. So yeah, wow, yeah.
Speaker 3:I find you know the nature of these things with ADHD and ASD. It's like a hamster wheel. You know where one thing is masking the other but causing the issues of the other. And it's funny, the more I see this stuff unraveled in my mind, I'm like is that actually just something that my ADHD is doing to mask this autistic trait, so that I'm, you know, not exposed? Yeah, it becomes this thing that unravels in your mind where you're like well, which part is it Like?
Speaker 1:what am I actually doing and you know what right like from. Well, it's actually interesting knowing say yourself Ferdon John, and now yourself Mike, but other Audi HDers as well, and you can almost and maybe I'm wrong when I've met, say, autistic people and maybe they have different traits to other Audi HDers. I can pick them up a lot easier through certain things where, for all DHD and maybe I'm wrong it's almost like the ADHD covers it, so it's hard to recognise. Am I right in saying that?
Speaker 3:It's 100% right. That's exactly what I'm finding, and so then it makes it a challenge to try and work out what it is that I'm actually addressing today, and because I'm sort of going down the medicated path now as well. I'm three weeks into medication. Medication is dealing with some of it. It's actually taking care of some of the ADHD stuff, but then in turn, the ASD stuff really starts to screen through now because the ADHD is being dealt with. So now I'm finding a bunch more of the ASD stuff that's creeping up, and yeah, it's. It's just a new thing for me to have to try and process yeah, that would be a complete.
Speaker 1:And you know, fredon John, I think you've said something similar in the past how some people, especially once they got onto medication, for example, they actually didn't like it because it did change maybe a lot of the things that and look, this isn't me saying, hey, get off medication, or anything like that. No, this is a conversation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. This isn't me saying hey, get off medication or anything like that.
Speaker 2:No, this is a conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah totally, you know where. It quieted the brain, where they wanted that, you know. And even if we look at who is the bloke who used to be married to oh what's that famous rapper? He's really out there. Oh, what's his name? You don't narrow it down a whole lot. Oh man man, what's his name? And his wife he used to be his wife. They've got this famous TV show and it's three sisters and the. The sister's father was Kanye West. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, yeah, so there we go. That's how ADHD mind's gone into a full plate there, right? Um, I think you know, with Kanye West we've heard that you know he's bipolar and all of that, that he doesn't use his medication because apparently it distracts him from being able to be creative and stuff like that, you know. So it doesn't work for him. It probably works, but I mean like it doesn't work in regards. It probably works, but I mean like it doesn't work in regards to his music type of thing.
Speaker 3:It's a balancing act.
Speaker 2:I think it works for some I think too.
Speaker 3:Sorry, John.
Speaker 2:Let's just go there. I think it works for some, but not others.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's a hard adjustment too, right, like you've been living this way for 30-odd something years. I got my diagnosis at 44. So 44 years of living this way and then all of a sudden, something changes and so you're like, well, what now? Like how do I know what baseline is? So I think you know, and what I've stuck with during all of this process is, you know the need to stick to talking therapies as well. So you know, yes, there's medication.
Speaker 3:Medication is not going to fix everything, right? So, um, as part of my treatment plan, um, I catch up fortnightly with a psychologist and we talk it through, because there's plenty of stuff that still needs to be talked about. And then I've got an ADHD coach as well. That's just sort of teaching me the bits and pieces to make my day a bit easier on myself. So it's a full holistic treatment plan, right? And I think you know that's one of the things that I think a lot of people get caught up in, in thinking that once I get my diagnosis, if I get medicated, then I'll be fine and and everything will be cool a lot more time, yeah it's a lot more to it, man.
Speaker 3:And and there's actually again, there's a little bit of like okay, it's great to move into the medication thing, but then there's also a bit of a okay, well, this actually needs thought and exploration as well. It's not just switch and we're all good, um, so yeah, it's a bit of a learning process there yeah, no, no, it's true, it's just, and it was actually interesting.
Speaker 1:I went out for um breakfast or brunch, I should say with my wife and um, uh, one of the new advisory board members for Neurodiversity Academy and his partner, and you know she was talking about like how she's really getting into like other therapies as well. So, for example, I remember I went to this conference and I met this guy who does like surf therapy and it's like, yes, you can have be on medication, all that, but these other things can be really beneficial as well, if that makes sense, you have to do everything you can to try and I don't want to use the word normalize, because you know normal can be a tricky word in our environment but to make your life more baseline for you.
Speaker 3:And that's the other thing that you know, I've got to get used to with this diagnosis is because I've been through my entire life a chronic people pleaser and a chronic I'm always chronically seeking external validation, you know because it's just one of those things.
Speaker 1:Can I ask what you mean by people Like what would you do to be pleasing people Like would it be like say, if someone wanted you to do something that you know you didn't want to do, you'd just do it so you could please them? Is that what you mean by that?
Speaker 3:Sometimes they wouldn't even have to ask me. Will you know, sometimes I'm driven by just thinking that if I'm not like this, if I don't have this persona about me, then I won't be liked. So then I go over and above for people and and then I've got to also try and find the balance between well, part of that is just being a nice guy too, like you can also, you know, peel that back and go. It's okay just to be cool and be wanting to, you know, take care of all your mates and do cool things. But you always have to check what is the driving validator behind that.
Speaker 3:And my psychologist put me through a really great exercise a couple of weeks ago where you form a bit of a roadmap just based on your core values. So you've got to go through this exercise of deciphering the values that are important to you, the ones that aren't important to you, and then you try and build this pyramid of what are my core values and so then checking in with those values consistently when you're making decisions that you would have normally done on that impulse because I'm either thinking I need validation or I need to serve If you're always just touching those values and going, okay, am I? If I'm aligning with at least half a dozen of these values, it's the right decision. But if I'm not and I'm still wanting to go ahead with it well then I'm being driven by something that isn't me yeah, totally, totally, totally no interesting stuff what we might do.
Speaker 1:We might just move forward because we do have a few questions that we, you know, and I think we're we're going through some really great stuff. But, um, you know, tell us a little bit about you know, the work you do, especially in the neurodiversity community. You've got we've spoken about your podcast all that. You know what. What was the whole, I suppose, drive behind, behind that and all of that.
Speaker 3:Well, I've always been in technology and it's one of those things where, if you were to ask me what I want to do when I grow up, I still couldn't tell you. I've always been very unsure of the career that I wanted, so I tried to at least make sure that I again natively stuck to some values. I've always loved technology, I always loved music and I'm like so what industries align with that? And music production was the thing that I landed in, which led through a few different career paths, and I ended up in commercial AV. So large-scale AV stadiums, arenas, hospitals, universities.
Speaker 1:So would you do like big concerts and stuff like that?
Speaker 3:uh, we would more fit out a stadium. So like marvel stadium, for instance, like the pa at marvel stadium is something that we look after. Oh wow, that's crazy. What bands have you done? Then, oh, I don't do. No, I don't do. I'm a complete back of house guy man. I'm the guy that builds the systems. I don't do. No, I don't do. I'm a complete back of house guy man. I'm the guy that builds the systems. I don't do any staging or mixing or anything like that.
Speaker 1:Oh, but it's for like big, like concerts, right? Corporate AV, yeah, so more so if you went to like Star City.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, if you're in Star City and you're in one of the big entertainment rooms or the big conference rooms, that's the sort of stuff that we fit out ah, okay, yeah, cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 1:So you spend a lot of time at conferences.
Speaker 3:Then always like within the understanding of how av is used in an environment. Yeah, yeah so now I.
Speaker 3:I made it through um, various executive positions heaven knows how at this point, um, but now I'm a director of technology at the firm that I work for, um, and I tell an interesting story about this because it's it's cooling how this came about.
Speaker 3:I talk about four years ago how my mental health 100 went off the rails and I was working for an organization that was um wasn't necessarily the best organization for me, I would say, similar to sort of what we were talking about before, will, where there's an understanding and then sometimes there's not an understanding, and I felt in that environment I probably wasn't understood the best.
Speaker 3:Coming to Insight, the place that I'm at now, the wholesale change in how this business was supportive of its people, culture was first, you know, inclusivity mattered. All of those things all mattered and for the first time ever, when I started to express that I may have been dealing with challenges, because I would never vocalize that in the work environment, but started vocalizing that the amount of people that rallied around me to support me was not anything that I was ever familiar with. So, inherently, what that place gave me was an opportunity to actually be able to take stock in myself, step back from the grind. That is, you know you're a senior exec and actually look after myself, and I think if I didn't make this move into this role, I probably would have never gone through the journey that I went through. We wouldn't be talking. So if they talk about the right things coming along at the right time, definitely I was fortunate enough for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's awesome and you know, just hearing about that workplace, you know how supportive they are and you know how has that made you, I suppose. How is that for every day in the workplace?
Speaker 3:out of curiosity, yeah, well, it's one of those things where I came into this place. I've worked for organisations previously that had amazing workplace culture.
Speaker 3:I worked for Alan's Music, and you'll remember alan's music yeah yep, work there for a while, another place where you work with people that are just passionate. They can't get enough of what they do. They love it, um, but in the sense of coming to this place, it's then inspired me to do a bit more around my neurodiversity, because this is all new for me Again. I've only known about this for a year. But I thought, well, I know how hard it was for me and I know how much pain I went through, not knowing what was wrong with me but also never feeling like I belonged or was supported.
Speaker 3:So it became a thing where I'm like, okay, this can cripple me or it can give me another power to wield out in the world, and so my decision was that, and so I guess almost overnight, I turned a little bit spokesperson, just because there is not enough talk about this stuff. There is still not enough talk and there's still not enough understanding, there's still not enough support and people don't get it Like. I started down this journey and we can get into this a bit later. But I started down this journey because a friend of mine told me they were neurodivergent and I turned really judgy on the word because I thought is this just another one of those words that people come up with because they can't face their real problem. And then that sent me down this rabbit hole of uncovering what neurodivergence was and then, all of a sudden, realizing that I had something that I knew.
Speaker 3:I could just do myself it's so weird.
Speaker 1:Sorry, how long ago was that?
Speaker 3:that was probably two years ago, because it was as the podcast, my podcast was starting. Yeah, um, because one of the guests that I wanted to get on is a female entrepreneur that I love and admire and have followed for years. Um, she's a good personal friend of mine but I said, okay, let's talk about like, what are we going to talk about when you come on the podcast? And she's like, I'd love to talk about what it means to be neurodivergent and an entrepreneur and I'm like what is neurodivergent?
Speaker 1:and and then, yeah, yeah, this is neurodivergent yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, sorry I'm gonna say something great, but when I came on your podcast, we didn't even have a conversation about what we were going to talk about, if I remember correctly Because I remember right rolling in thinking, oh man, the dude hasn't sent me any questions or anything and then you and I were just there talking I'm like he hasn't spoken about anything. Then we just sat down and rolled with it.
Speaker 1:It's one gift that I've got, will, the one gift that I've got is that of a gab well, the one gift that I've got is that that that of the gab there's uh, yeah, you nailed it, man, you nailed it and and and you know what. I think that's the best way to do it as well, you know, but it can depend on your guests, I think as well, because if you've got a guest, just roll with it.
Speaker 1:Then you've probably got other guests who are like oh my god, I need to know the questions before I get that type of thing.
Speaker 3:I've had episodes that haven't gone to air because they went off the rails, just the way that it is sometimes. Oh really, oh really.
Speaker 1:So ours obviously rolled. Well then, mate. Beautiful Ours obviously rolled well hey you know?
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, we don't have that luxury because we're live Speaking of which just to our audience. We're having slight technical difficulties. How am I sounding now Will?
Speaker 1:You're still a little bit loud and like really young Okay.
Speaker 3:Like what are you?
Speaker 1:doing. A bit boomy Turn it like right down, man Turn it right down.
Speaker 2:No, it's nearly off. It's the connection, not the mic. I'm just going to have to jump out and back in again.
Speaker 1:Sorry guys, I'll be back. No problem, mate, I'll hold the fort for you, all right? Okay, cool, cool. So you know we've spoken a little bit about you know, when you're diagnosed, but what was that diagnosis journey like for you? Then, you know, you, you're talking to someone on your podcast going oh my god, I think this is me. What then happened for you then?
Speaker 3:yeah. So the natural inclination for me I am a dramatic researcher, you know, and research mode is a is another sort of adhd asd thing that I uncovered. But if I need to know something about anything, I need to know everything, um, and so initially, when I was looking at what does neurodivergent mean and and what does that uncover, um, I would start to come across things that seemed familiar to me, and I think the the, the symptom that I uncovered that I that really familiar to me, and I think the symptom that I uncovered that really screamed to me like you are affected by this was the concept of rejection sensitivity. So rejection sensitivity, dysphoria is probably one of my most defining symptoms, in the sense of it has prevented me from being comfortable enough to move into a bunch of things in my life that I wanted to do but always thought there's no way I'm going to be able to do this because if I fail then people will think I'm a piece of shit and so on, and so on.
Speaker 3:So RSD was that thing where I'm like, hang on a minute, is this just not how everyone feels? And then that led to another, led to another, led to another and all of a sudden you're reading like it almost feels like your autobiography. And so I went and saw the GP. Gp did what he had to do and then made some referrals. And you know, I guess I was fortunate enough that I always had connections with people that had either received diagnoses or that were in psychology. I've got a lot of friends that are sort of in you know, either clinical or research, and it's probably safe to say that. You know, I was peer-reviewed um adhd a few times by people around me that could see that they're the sorts of symptoms that I had. Um, it just took the you, the formal approach to get it worked out. And here we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go, there you go. Now. It's definitely interesting, I think, for myself. That I found was how normal life my normal life used to be before diagnosis, life my normal life used to be before diagnosis, how I started to realize that a lot of the things that I'd normally do in the past, that was what was affecting me, if that makes sense. So, you know, busy shopping center or going to a music festival or whatever that was, or even going to the pub. You know, I remember when I was younger going to a pub and being so overwhelmed by everyone there that I just had to start drinking as much as I could to get drunk so I could just kill that pain, but then I'd just keep on going. I didn't know how to stop and it was a real big problem, you know. But with that being said, what are you now realising about how being undiagnosed impacted you in your teens?
Speaker 3:Man my teens were punishing. I was a very insecure kid, um, my, my family life wasn't necessarily typical, um, you know, my, my parents separated quite early and I moved from location to location quite a lot as a kid, um, which was extremely terrifying when you don't necessarily have a big family or a big community around you. You always sort of always feel like you're facing that alone. But I could tell now, looking back at ADHD and its influence on those actions.
Speaker 3:Every time I had the opportunity to move either started new school or move into a new class at school because I, because I was so disruptive, I got moved around quite a lot um, it always presented as an opportunity for me to reinvent myself. So what I would do would be look back on the last appointment, you know, the last school or whatever I was at, all the things that people liked about me, I didn't like about me, the stuff that I said that you know got good feedback and the stuff that I said, and I would refine my character to a point where, if I go into this next school, I'm gonna be the person that they actually want this time and I would drive myself crazy, man trying to please everyone, trying yeah, people pleasing once again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 3:And then you know you also have that other thing that's going on whilst you're undiagnosed at school, which is, you know, you're always in trouble, you're consistently distracting, you are a class clown, you won't settle down. We spoke about this on my show. You get tarred with this brush, that is, you're just like an uproar um. But then you're also put in this environment where I can do really well at what you tell me to do. I'll do it that well, but I'll do it in 15 minutes. But the trade-off is you're then going to make me sit in this room for 50 minutes with my mouth closed, and that just doesn't work for me yeah, it's like pain.
Speaker 1:I think we even said this on your podcast. It's like pain it's torture.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know it's just so. Then you, you know you, yeah, you want to then, um, continue to seek that attention and that validity. And so, you know, I was always the kid that got attention by doing negative stuff, um, and it wasn't until I had one teacher. You know the one woman Jeannie Young was her name and, god bless her, she's passed away now but she was that teacher where every other teacher just wanted me gone, or, you know, they just couldn't be bothered with a problem anymore.
Speaker 3:She was the woman that decided to sit down and say mate, there's something that you're really good at, and it's not just being bad, um, and she could see through it.
Speaker 3:And she was the one that sort of put me on the path to and I credit her with my ability to speak publicly she made a bet with me in year 11 where she said if you can pull your head in and do well and I don't mean you need to get a's or anything like that, I just don't want to see you doing pull your head in and do well, and I don't mean you need to get A's or anything like that, I just don't want to see you doing the same stuff that you do every year in year 12, because I will put you on stage as a valedictorian and I'm like I couldn't think of anything better at that age than being the focal point of our graduation. So I did it and I got the gig and I credit her for that because, again, she was that one woman who decided to just look a little bit deeper and go eh, kid's got skill, just doesn't know how to use it.
Speaker 1:And you know, look, I had teachers who were the exact same. They were definitely don't get me wrong if I was doing bad stuff, they would definitely tell me off for it. Bad stuff, they would definitely tell me off for it. But yeah, it was like they knew how to build, I knew they. They respected me and I respected them back, so I did do something right. I'd be like, come on, well, and you're like, yeah, man, I can't not do. Do you know? Do this, because this is, this is the person who's doing really well for me.
Speaker 1:And a a lot of the time when I had those teachers, I really thrived and it was actually interesting.
Speaker 1:So when I was down in Melbourne for Edutech, I did the speech at Edutech, all of that, and got off stage and this lady yells out to me while I'm walking through the convention centre there and she's like Will, will, will, you're awesome. And I'm like, oh, thank you so much, you know. And I went over and started talking to her and this was a you know, this woman obviously worked in a school and she was with another woman and I could just see that this woman was just so, you know, such a lovely person and such a good. But then the woman next to her had like this angry look on her face, like what I was thinking was. She was thinking I was full of shit because of what I was. You know, I'm like, you know, when I had this and that, and you can just see she was probably one of those teachers that I would never have gotten along with, if that makes sense, you know. So they're still out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's heaps of them out there, and so you know, that's what really inspired me, I think, to make the switch. To make sure that you know, now I'm driving for that neurodiverse inclusivity because, particularly in our area, in tech, it's weird. You look at stats, man, they used to think that about 6% to 8% of people in tech were neurodiverse and now they're thinking it's more like 50 or 60. Yeah, yeah, so the amount of people in my industry that don't know of the condition that they've got, I, I'm figuring let me just make noise, you know. Let me make it known if one other person can be helped out sorry, kev, how you're back mate, how are we sounding?
Speaker 2:are we sounding better?
Speaker 1:nah, man, you're still really tinny it's a little bit better. It's a little bit better can you move the mic away from you a little bit it's on all the same settings.
Speaker 2:That normally is. I think we're dealing with us with australian internet right now move it away from you, it's yeah it's on the other side of the desk do you want to maybe put it into the other? Room, then I'll just shut up mostly, yeah, yeah, yeah all good, mate, all good, all good.
Speaker 1:Now, um, you know, we spoke about, like you know, your, your teen years and all of that type of stuff. But what about adulthood? Now, you know, because you know, because you know, I think for myself, especially when I went from being a teen into adulthood you don't have people telling you, hey, don't do that or do this or whatever. You're free to do. Whatever the hell you want. What did that look like for you?
Speaker 3:you're free to do whatever the hell you want. What did that look like for you? So there was something really interesting that happened, um, in the shift from my teen years to adulthood and it was very defining, clearly not um. I wasn't aware of what was happening. If I look back now it's very clear, but it goes back to sort of what you were saying before.
Speaker 3:So I was a pretty good kid in school as far as um like, I was a clown, but I never got into trouble. So, like, I wasn't the shoplifting kid. I didn't smoke weed, I didn't drink underage, I didn't do any of that stuff. I didn't even smoke cigarettes. I was, like, super superbehaved in terms of outside of academia and I wasn't really social as in. Like, I wasn't a kid that went to a lot of parties, or I didn't really get invited to a lot of parties, but I didn't participate in the social environment. As soon as I turned 18, I remember going out, and the first time I went out was to a nightclub in Melbourne that used to be called the Chevron and the Chevron had Thursday night, uni night, which was dollar pots and spirits. And you know, obviously, if you're a poor uni student, you go there Totally. There's big crowds, a lot of lights.
Speaker 1:With everyone else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. It was my first time, like, in nightclubs. I'd never been to nightclubs, I've never even snuck in underage. But all of a sudden I'm in a nightclub and I'm like like what you were saying before I can't deal with. This is full-on, like it's so much people, so much stuff. But then you start on these and you're like, well, life's going down, like if I have a drink, it's sweet, like I can talk to anyone, I can, yes, dance, I can. Like I'm not even worried. Um, so then you know, drinking on the regular was the thing and that was my okay. Well, now I can be social, I just have a couple drinks, all good, um, and then I fell into that scene, um, and I started djing. I started doing all of that stuff because I just loved. You know what I discovered? Um, and it became a passion for me.
Speaker 3:But obviously with those passions, in particular in those scenes, uh, you know, recreational drug use was another thing. That sort of started to creep in in my mid-20s and I say, hand on my heart, the first time I ever took ecstasy. It changed my whole ability to connect and relate to other people to a point where you know people that do, that will express how that feels for them. But I know now that that was really a similar and I won't say similar because it's not but in knowing how to use stimulants to change the way my mind works was something that I obviously learned organically through that process. And then those stimulant types of recreational drugs become something that you use to get a result. That is typically medicating yourself, but you're doing it wrong, shouldn't be doing that. But you know, that's where I started to understand that something's up with my brain, because I always struggled with personal relationships. I've always struggled with family relationships. I've always struggled with relationships at work.
Speaker 1:Has that changed now?
Speaker 3:out of curiosity. It's getting better. It's getting better because I know yeah, I know what my role is and what I'm responsible for, you know, in those relationships.
Speaker 1:Sorry, because it's actually interesting. So you know, with work for example, how, like, why doesn't it work? Type of thing. If you don't mind me asking, you know, is it that you just feel like you keep to yourself, or I'm not sure?
Speaker 3:just feel like you keep to yourself, or I'm not sure. My biggest issue in my work life was the ability to make rational decisions based on fact, without being overwhelmed by the emotional value of the decision. Um, which is one of the things we're talking about. Before that, probably the biggest change I noticed with being medicated is that now, whenever I am faced with a choice, I'm no longer faced with like this tsunami of emotion that plays out like all these different fractals of what, if it goes this way, I make this choice and this happens and, like you know, it's like inception. My mind would play out the 400 different endings and stress about them all, where now I can sort of go okay, well, there's not too much emotion with it. Now let me make the decision based on the facts that I have in front of me and the people that are involved. Um, so that's something that I've never been able to do. And now, when I look back, you know, you just see, time after time where ADHD had played its role yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, you know.
Speaker 1:But you know, obviously, um, you know, I know, for myself, especially in adulthood, um, it, it just spiraled out of control for a long time and, um, you know, definitely with drugs and and alcohol, all of that.
Speaker 1:But you know, I just got to a real point where I hated feeling the way I did when I was utilizing those those types of you know things right. So, for example, let's say, a Friday afternoon you catch up with all your mates for a beer and then you wake up Saturday morning and you're just hungover, as right. And I remember, like having a Friday night where I'm like you know what, I'm just going to watch the cricket. Tonight, for example, all of my mates were sitting out the back just pissing on, and all of that I said you know what, and they were out there like, hey, will you coming out? I'm like no, no, I'm just going to sit here and watch the cricket, watch the cricket. And then I'll never forget waking up the next day and being like, oh, my god, I'm gonna go and pay my bills. You know, because back in those days, like you would have to like pay your bills at the post office or whatever, like that and like just the feeling of being clear-headed.
Speaker 2:It was almost like a drug within itself neurodivergent medic self-medicating with alcohol and drugs too, can be a bit more extreme than your neurotypical person using those things. So hairs can be worse and you go a bit harder and yeah, yeah, totally, and the thing that always used to happen to me too that like it.
Speaker 3:It was weird because I couldn't understand the philosophy behind it, but whenever I was in those circles and under the influence, particularly of like, of a stimulant, recreational drug, I could do amounts of that stimulant and all my friends would be like dude, have you done anything Like? Because you seem normal, like and I would feel normal Like. I would actually sit there and be like, I can think clearly, like. You know it's. It was just. It was such a weird experience for me, um, but you know, an early indicator that there was just something not quite right with the chemistry of my brain yeah, totally, totally it's.
Speaker 1:It's definitely interesting how it works. But, um, what were some positive ways that neurodivergence impacted your early years? You know, did you see some? And maybe going into your 20s as well, you know what was and and you know, I think, when photon john and I were um putting these questions together, I think a big thing for me was, you know, I got into a band, I was very creative with writing. I would do things a lot differently to others. You know that was something that really was good. But then it was the whole other side of the thing, like what you were speaking about is. I was then around drugs, alcohol, that party lifestyle, that sort of like broke it up type of thing, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the positive stuff. I mean I was very content being alone. You know I was a loner and I was always happy being alone. And I remember, you know when, was a loner and I was always happy being alone. And I remember, you know, when I started holidaying, we used to holiday in Gippsland when I was probably between the ages of maybe 10 and 18. And it was one of those places you would go to. It's a caravan park and there's a lot of outdoor activities and kids are riding motorbikes and you know dudes are going off adventures in the bush and water skiing and all that sort of stuff. And I was pretty content taking my back when I was a sega mega drive. I was pretty content taking my mega drive, a mega drive, and I would just sit in the caravan for two weeks and play and I remember everyone saying to me like what'd?
Speaker 1:you come on the trip for exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, this understanding of know you need to be doing these other things, but I used to love what I loved and the thing that I remember as a kid was, if I love something, man, I was so in love with it. And I used to love playing video games. I used to love just watching my favorite movies as a kid over and over again, listening to the same music over and over again. You know, I started collecting comics when I was in year seven and then I started collecting figurines and I became obsessed with Star Wars and you know it's just like my obsession with things I actually love. You know, I love that I'm driven to know so much about something, sometimes Like I walk around with so much useless knowledge in my head, but sometimes someone can say something and I can drop comment and and jump in on that conversation as if I know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I know I love that. I know one of my favorite things was to take drugs and watch train spotting and I would watch that like three times in a row in a night and I would do that most weekends, you know, if I wasn't out doing stuff, it never even occurred to me that it was a bit strange until my friends were like, hey, you know, normal people don't do that, right? Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:It was.
Speaker 3:The Matrix for me.
Speaker 1:Or sitting there like early hours of the morning coming down watching Rage.
Speaker 2:Did you?
Speaker 1:ever watch it. I'm like God, I just think about that. I'm like cringe, cringe, cringe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if you couldn't get to sleep, you were up long enough to then watch Recovery, because Recovery would come on at about 8 or 9 in the morning and that's when you knew like the whole day is a waste, then yeah totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So what was the catalyst for you getting a diagnosis? I think we actually covered this before you know, so we might move on from that. Actually, now, your diagnosis is recent, so what are your takeaways so far?
Speaker 3:There's so many. There's so many. I think, you know, the one thing that I'm finding hard but is omnipresent, is this concept of now that that you have your diagnosis like be kinder to yourself um, because I've always been my harshest critic and again that being built on things like rejection, sensitivity, and you know the issues that come from no real confidence or self-belief. Um, but I'm trying to. You know, even in times like today, I was just doing something around the house and I got it wrong and the first thing that my mind does is that going piece of shit, like why do you even keep doing these things when you can just never get them right? You know, it's like no matter how many times you've done it, you keep making the same mistakes.
Speaker 3:And then I'm like this is the point where I've got to get my mind to change that response, and I can only do that by reminding myself that this is how I am, like I'm going to continue to do this for the rest of my life. It's not going to change. So I'm trying to become a bit more content in sitting with that. You know, be kinder to yourself, but you're undoing 44 years' worth of negative self-talk. So there's work to do there. But I think that's the thing that is probably the most freeing for me is once I can be convinced that it's all right, you know it's just how you are, things will get better. So that's definitely one of the key takeaways.
Speaker 2:The other key takeaway did you arrive at that point right away, or was it a bit of a realization to get to that point? Because I know for myself? It was more oh okay, well, now that I know what it is, I can learn how to be a normal person, and it took me a while to realize. No, I can learn how my brain works and to accept that and to work better with that, rather than thinking that I could be fixed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I am still in that adjustment phase, so you were just trying to you figured out just to be yourself, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm actually 70% through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's sort of like interesting. Like interesting because, like I think and I learned this over, actually, the pandemic the importance of being yourself, how much better that is on your mental health as well, and I think that's carrying into my diagnosis and all of that stuff, because, especially in business, all of that, I used to wear suits, you know, shaved heads, stuff like that, and it's like that. So wasn't me. And I think back to those days and I'm like I don't know, I just felt weak. I look at it and I think, oh my God, how strange, you know, and I think, like what you were saying before, mike was like, was it to just try and please people, or was I trying to live a world that I'm not? For example, maybe I was trying to be some big business person who wears a suit, who's like a CEO or something like that. But a CEO doesn't have to wear a suit these days. You can just be you, and once I realised that, that was where, man, I just was able to thrive so much better.
Speaker 3:I used to brush up against a lot of my old managers for that very topic. So I was the guy that always went to work like this. I've been a jeans, t-shirt and hoodie guy most of my life and, again, very ASD in nature, right, like always comfy clothes. And I used to brush up against management who'd be like no, if you're going to see that client, it's got to be full suit. I'm like why? Because that's what's expected. I'm like why is that expected? Why is it expected that I walk in in a suit? And does it matter if I walk in in a suit, talk absolute rubbish, don't know anything that I need to know about and just bullshit my way through it? Is the suit going to sell that? Or is it better that I go in with a hoodie and a pair of jeans and actually know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3:I used to always have that grief.
Speaker 2:I've had this experience lately with rebranding my business and calling it punk digital instead of proper digital. And it came to me when I was getting my knuckle tattoos and it was running through my head like, oh, what a client's going to think about this. And I was like you know what? No, I need to be more myself and more like this, and they might look at me sideways when I come in the room. But once I was like you know what? No, I need to be more myself and more like this, and they might look at me sideways when I come in the room, but once I start talking, they can see that I know what I'm doing and I get that freedom and that stress relief of being myself.
Speaker 3:And that's the gift again, that's the gift that I've been afforded with this employment, though I have worked for other employers that were very, uh, supportive and encouraging and things like that.
Speaker 3:Never have I been in a business where you were so invited to be yourself, um. But then I'm also aware too that, like you know, at an executive level there is a little bit more opportunity to be yourself, right, because you're sort of setting the standard. So at that point, you know, that's where then I also lent right into that diagnosis, because, well, now I can actually set an example as to what it means to build an environment for people to thrive, because I've got inside knowledge. You know, for the first time ever I've got inside knowledge in what it's like to be, of neurodivergence, um, simply just having lived a life that way, and I've never just naturally known something, um. So that's one of those things where I think, okay, well, well, this is really I'm gonna say it's a calling, but it's, it's something that I need to be able to spend more time leaning into, um, otherwise it's a waste and you want to.
Speaker 2:You want to anyway because you remember your. You remember your own experience being undiagnosed for so long and you don't. You don't want to see other people have to go through that and the only way that changes is through conversations correct?
Speaker 1:yeah, and it's true, because how many? And I don't know about you guys, but I am coming across so many people now who, just because I'm talking about certain things or I'm open about certain things, they're learning a lot more about themselves and they're going oh my god, I think I'm this now, and then they'll end up going get tested, all that, and it'll come back that they're ADHD or they're ASD or whatever. That is, what about your mum?
Speaker 2:that's her, that's her experience. So through my sister's diagnosis and my diagnosis, she got to her own oh really, and now she's learning through the podcast and just knowing me and yeah, it's great, great to see.
Speaker 3:Oh, nice, nice, nice, nice, it's definitely I get a stack of um of messages. Now, like you know, I'm pretty, uh, vocal on linkedin um, because linked LinkedIn can be a bit dry, particularly in our community, you know. People don't necessarily do a lot of talking about that. So I've made a point to really be loud about it on LinkedIn and I get people messaging me. Some of these people I've known for 10, 15 years and all of a sudden they reach out. They're like hey, just wanted to ask you some questions because I've got a son, you know, that is showing these sorts of things and what should you think I should do? Or, you know, did you relate to this when you were a kid? And just little things where I'm like okay, well, I'm just going to keep doing this because it seems to be working it's actually so.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting because whenever I'm talking at conferences or whatever, you know, I I'm open as right, and it is it's the parents, after I get off stage, who are coming up to me and they're like, oh my God, thank you so much for speaking, because that's my son, my son's growing up, but really worried about you know what's next for them in regards to what education to do in regards to higher learning for them, in regards to what education to do in regards to higher learning, all of that type of stuff. And I think that's where it's really beneficial to speak about these things, and I think as well, by speaking, it's not forcing people to have to disclose. If that makes sense, they just might feel more comfortable to want to disclose then. If that makes sense, they just might feel more comfortable to want to disclose then, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or they run into you at you know an event three months from now and you're just that person that they can gravitate to and go. Hey, you know you've got five minutes. I just wanted to ask you something.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting because it's like when I do meet people who you know are either ADHD, autistic or whatever, we just seem to. It's like this Instant. It was like when you and I met up, right Like to tell you the truth, right like when I met up with you, I drank coffee Now, I hardly ever drink coffee and I was on edge when I saw you mate.
Speaker 3:I was like oh my.
Speaker 1:God, how do I calm down? Because I hardly ever drink coffee.
Speaker 1:And it was only because I'd flown down really early in the morning that I was like you know what? I think I might have a coffee, but yeah, it just put me on edge. So I was on edge when I was with you, but the thing it was just like oh, we just clicked, you know, and I think it was good because we were speaking before we went on the podcast, and it was like it was more sort of like oh, let's just move it to the podcast now, and then we just it just flowed, type of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I've got a story that I wanted to capitalize on that too, because you talk about in the vein of neurodivergent people clicking, and this is one of the things that, when I got my diagnosis, my mind went back and I went back to a point where I'm back at this caravan park that I used to holiday at and I'm probably 13 or 14 years old and, like I said, every year upon year I would go there and I wouldn't necessarily click with anyone because they're all very different. I remember one year there was a kid, a new family had come to the caravan park for the first time. There was a kid, aaron I certainly his name was Aaron. He had a younger brother, aaron and I became mates instantly, didn't even know each other and we became mates because we just had all the same little things that we like to do and I thought this is great.
Speaker 3:I'm going to love coming here again, because now I finally got a friend and I remember about four or five days after I met him, we're just riding pushbikes around and we're at the front of his caravan and his parents came out and his dad came up to me and said oh hey, you know, it's really nice to meet you. We really appreciate you spending some time with Aaron, because Aaron's got ADD and it's hard for him to make friends. I had no idea what ADD was.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't know what you're talking about, dude, I don't know what the jam is.
Speaker 1:He's a cool kid and I'm hanging out with him and we're having a good time, Like whatever.
Speaker 3:That's a weird thing to say to a kid actually, yeah, but later on, like I started always going back to that moment being like what do you mean by ADD? And then, like you learn all these different things. And then, when I got my diagnosis, I'm like well, of course it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:It course, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:It was the only kid that I could connect with. Yeah, it's interesting. Hey, it's interesting, is it? What was that like for you, phoenix john? Um, you know I I can't think back. I was just trying to think back then because I don't think I ever have to whether any of my friends were neurodivergent, but they probably were some of them. You know I hang out with the weirdest of the weird kids. It was definitely, you know, the metalhead punk kid in school Hang on.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I need to sort of say this is totally unrelated and this is just my ADHD brain. Wait, did you guys see the stuff with like Jane's Addiction on stage? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, man Harry's like 65 years old and he's trying to punch on with Navarro.
Speaker 1:I know man he just like he was pissed man. Hey, he was.
Speaker 2:Perry Farrell is a tripper.
Speaker 1:Is he?
Speaker 2:Have you ever watched an?
Speaker 3:interview with him.
Speaker 1:I've never watched. I've seen him live, but I've never like watched interviews with him.
Speaker 3:I was going to say if it's not proof of the simulation, at the same time that you've got Oasis reforming, you've got Jane's Addiction breaking down on stage. It's like what is happening. It's so weird it was.
Speaker 1:It was weird, but you know what? That was just a random thing that came to my mind. I think the reason why I wanted to share it was because, photon John, you always talk about like you were the weird kid or something like that, but then, for some reason, you'd always talk about smashing pumpkins, how you would always connect with people. You know what I mean. So I was like oh hang on Jane's addiction, you know yeah yeah, music got me through a lot of that with this.
Speaker 3:This is oh hang on jade's addiction, you know yeah, yeah yeah, this is another thing that I'd do if I ever was doing a phd. It would be trying to uncover the music genres that people relate to the most, as undiagnosed adhd sapphires, as children, because I find so many people that I connect. We all like the same bands, we all like the same type of music, not necessarily exactly the same, but the fundamentals of what the music did was universal, and what I found was I was always into music that had very clear rhythmic or polyrhythmic elements to it, with big drums, big bass, because that was where I would orient myself in music. I would put music on for days because, again, it was my other way to shut things out.
Speaker 3:So I was always attracted to music like that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if my view is skewed because I listen to alternative music, but I found most of my neurodivergent friends were drawn to alternative style music not everyone, but I think that could be, I know, for me, when I discovered Smashing Pumpkins, it was that Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness album where it's like 28 songs and they're all completely different from each other and he's singing about being alone and weird and blah, blah, blah and I'm just like, oh my God, it's my person, it's my people, this is my crowd. You know, it did a lot for me. That was Tool for me.
Speaker 3:So Tool was the album.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, Tool Tool, definitely Tool. You know, Korn, rage Against the Machine, that were just it was, I think. For me it was like aggression. I loved the aggression type of thing. Yeah, I was more into those bands. But then I went into say more, you know more. I wouldn't say Smashing Functions are melodic, but like that more grungy sort. I sort of got into grunge after the grunge era if that makes sense, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It was like I got straight into heavy metal, a little bit of hip-hop like Beastie Boys and stuff like that, and then sort of went into a more melodic type of stuff. Now I can't listen to like the heavy stuff as much anymore. It's like it's just too hard for my brain. I need that softer stuff. But there are times where I'm like you know what I feel like hate breed today. You know what I mean, and then pump that crap. You know, you know.
Speaker 3:But um nah, all cool, the first time I ever saw hate breed will was by accident. I was at a sound wave show and I walked into. They were playing like a little booth down the back or whatever. And I walked into this thing and I'm like what the hell is going on here? People were all over the joint, man jumping from the roof and off speaker stacks and like there was circle pits and this is too much for me. I had to get out of it.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? Do you know what? I remember going to a big day out years ago and the White Stripes were there and they were on this like little small stage right Then the next year they were headlining Do you know what I mean it was like I saw them in this little room there.
Speaker 2:I had the same experience with Muse. I saw them as a three-piece on a tiny side stage at like the very last Livid Festival in the year 2000.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, that would have been interesting to see what were they like back then.
Speaker 2:They were just a band. You know none of the big fireworks or anything. They only had their first album out. It was awesome. It's still a great memory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome. But hey, you know, if, if anyone wants to connect with you or find out more about the stuff you know, your podcast, all of that, where can people connect with all your awesome stuff?
Speaker 3:yeah, so you can connect with me on probably linkedin youtube. Um, I don't do many of the other socials. I'm pretty non-social in social media, but if you just give Mike Island a search in Google, you'll find a bunch of ways to get in touch with me, and that's actually spelled M-Y-K-E, correct. M-y-k-e correct.
Speaker 1:M-Y-K-E is Mike.
Speaker 3:Island. So LinkedIn is Mike Island, YouTube is Mike Island. But yeah, you can find a bunch of ways to get in touch with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, cool, cool. Mike, thank you so much for coming on today. It's been so awesome to you know, listen to your story, being able to relate to a lot of things about your story as well.
Speaker 3:I think I think that's tripped off how we finished off with music there, never really done something like that before Probably do another hour just about that. One day Will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally. But no, no, it's good, but you know what? That's what I love about podcasts you can just do whatever you want and that's a podcast, you know. You don't have to be formal like all of that type of stuff. It's just a chat. You don't have to be formal like all of that type of stuff. It's just the chat, you know. But no, look, thank you so much for coming on and we really appreciate it, my man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love being part of it. Thanks so much for reaching out Again. We broke the world record today for the first ever guest. There we go, man.
Speaker 1:I'm glad to be a part of that, but look for all of our listeners out there to be a part of that, but look for all of our listeners out there. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow all of our social media platforms and check us out on any podcasting platform. My name's Will Wheeler, join with my main man, fodon John, and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Until next time, you.