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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Midlife & Neurodivergent Relationships - Tamsin Jowett
This week, we’re joined by special guest Tamsin Jowett to dive into how neurodivergence impacts relationships in midlife! We’ll cover everything from redefining expectations to navigating life changes like menopause, with practical advice for neurodivergent individuals and their loved ones.
Questions
Tell us a bit about yourself?
Tell us a bit about your work?
How has neurodivergence shaped your midlife relationships?
How do neurodivergent adults adjust relationship expectations in midlife?
What support helps neurodivergent adults with midlife relationship issues?
How do menopause or other midlife changes affect neurodivergent relationships?
What advice would you give neurodivergent individuals navigating midlife relationships?
Where can people find and connect with you?
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you're listening to neurodivergent mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of NeuroDivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, joined with my main man, photon John. What's going on, brother? Oh, you know.
Speaker 3:Beginning of the work week. I got up this morning thinking there'd be work and there wasn't. So I did that ADHD thing where I thought all day about what I should do and did nothing. Oh okay, interesting.
Speaker 2:Oh man, my day was actually pretty hectic. You know, when you know you've got a day and you've um, I don't know, like, it wasn't like I had. He, I did have things planned, but then just stuff started happening. People started reaching out. I needed to quickly email people, so it was very, but it just seemed to go real. A lot of stuff happened, if that makes sense, so it was pretty cool. But no, no, but look for our listeners today. You know, we did have a different topic that we weren't going to cover originally and unfortunately, the guest had to pull out last minute. So these things happen in the podcasting world and you know it's neurodivergent people yeah, especially live as well. We, we had to get our creative thinking caps on and we're able to to reach out to an awesome person to, to tell you the truth, um, I think it's probably a better topic than the one that we're going to be covering anyway, it's still coming on.
Speaker 2:Don't say that, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know, but I think it's good, I think it just it just really hit a spot with me. So, yeah, I just think you know, I think what I'm more getting at is the other topic that we're going to be talking about. It wasn't that it's not relevant. I think that when you're sort of trying to scramble to get something happening and then we came across a really awesome topic and a person to come join us, it was like, yes, this is awesome, it feels good, right, so let's get stuck into this. So today, what we're going to be covering is midlife and neurodivergent relationships with Tamsyn Jowett Tamsyn. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm great, thank you for having me. No problem at all.
Speaker 2:No problem at all. And look, no problem at all. And look, thank you so much for like last-minute call-up type of thing. And I think, like I was saying just previously, like this morning I woke up I saw that you had replied to my message, so it was like all systems go and then, you know, normally for us, especially with the podcast, we spend like an afternoon going through questions like vote on John and myself. So it was a very big scramble but we made it happen. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, love it, and I love talking about neurodivergence and participating in shows. You know, your show is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no problem, problem, no problem. So what we might do just before we get started, we'll do our housekeeping, like we always do so. For anyone who hasn't checked this out before, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on tiktok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube, linkedin. We're also available on every platform where you listen to your podcast. Also, if you haven't already done so, please check out the work that we're doing with neurodiversity academy. You can check us out at neurodiversityacademycom also today.
Speaker 2:Um, some of the discussions may be triggering for some. If you need need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Also, if you've got any questions, please, while we're going through the live podcast, put it in the comments on our social media pages and hopefully, if it's a good comment, we'll put it up on the on the podcast here for us to um answer. All right, well, I did pretty well on that one. What do you reckon for it on john?
Speaker 3:back on form, my friend yeah, man, back in form.
Speaker 2:You know what, right, how we say. Um, some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one, loved one, or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. I was thinking about that. Sometimes we do have doctors, so I wonder what's going to happen. Once we get it, we go. We are not doctors. I'll have to say we one person is a doctor.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean yeah but, um, I just think it's good that we cover all of that anyway. But, tamsin, like I said, thank you so much for coming on today. You know I've known a lot of the work that you're doing, but you know, I think it would be really great for our audience to just hear a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, I'm not a doctor, I'm originally a lawyer. But I grew up in a family where my dad was a GP and he was a country GP and one of his mantras was Tamsin, there is no normal, it's a myth. Just don't think about that. Everyone is different. So I just grew up with that, that about that, everyone is different. So I just grew up with that, that thought that everyone is different and that's great, it's okay. And he thought it was wonderful.
Speaker 1:And, um, I, but I went on, became a lawyer, went into the corporate world very corporatized, masked, perfect, you know that sort of scene. And then, um, when I was living in Dubai and I was working for BP my eldest son we started to realize he was a bit different. And next thing, we know, of course, you know, you go through the diagnostic process and all of that. And so 17 years ago we realized that he was autistic. And it was this whole world that opened up for me. And and of course, there's like it's like domino effect, because you look at all your family and everything. Oh my god, I've lived with this all my life and this is this me there, and my husband was definitely as well and then all the lawyers and other friends of ours, um, and then when I got back to Australia, it was what, what do I do around this? What can I do? And I felt you feel a bit helpless and you know, 17, 18 years ago there wasn't a lot in our space. There was.
Speaker 1:It was early and so I became. I started volunteering at Asperger's Victoria and then I became the president of Asperger's Victoria and I really loved that sort of way of empowering people with resources and providing community and a place to belong. That was what I thought was really important that place to connect, where you were safe, you're accepted and for just who you are. And so I went on to become. We got some funding in employment programs and I became the CEO at Asperger's Victoria and in that time, to do my employment programs, I became an ICF coach, and so now I've left AV and I'm focusing more on coaching, which is the ICF standard for coaching.
Speaker 2:Nice, nice, nice nice. That sounds really interesting, I think you know. Yeah, and I'm, I was. I'm terrible with math and I was trying to figure out what 17 years ago was. It was 2024 so it would have been like early 2000s, about 2005 or 2004,. 2003 type of thing.
Speaker 1:Early and of course you know he was diagnosed aspergers, because that's what it was then. You know kind of it was all segregated and the spectrum wasn't understood and a lot of negativity. You know people saying, oh, I'm sorry to hear that and I'm like I'm not sorry. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:You know.
Speaker 1:So it was a. It was quite a negative era around all of this yeah, yeah no, that's why the?
Speaker 3:um, that's why the uh whole vaccines cause autism thing annoys me, because I'm like you're talking about this like it's the worst possible thing that could happen to your child. Yeah, no, do you know what?
Speaker 2:right, funny, funny you say that, right, I think I did. I read something or something the other day where they were talking about autism is caused by plastics being consumed by the mother, or something I think I read. I think I read something like that the other day and I'm like what? Or there was something where they're able to to reverse it, or something. I don't know. I think it's just all this crap.
Speaker 3:I'm seeing a lot of research online and some of it's legitimate research, but a lot of people are going well. People with autism tend to have this kind of diet, or people with autism tend to engage in this kind of activity, their parents engaged in this kind of activity or their parents engaged in that kind of activity, and it's like just correlation. Like you know, it's fairly solid now that it's pretty genetic and people need to be careful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's that deficit mindset about difference which I think goes right back to the mental health system, because originally if your child was diagnosed autistic, often they would get locked away. You know it was horrific. So there was a fear around having differences, which is still there to an extent.
Speaker 2:So even around that early 2000,. You had a big fear. So even around that early 2000, you had a big fear and you know you spoke about you were a lawyer and all of that. Did you then change your perspective from how you would then see things? Say, what type of law were you into?
Speaker 1:actually out of curiosity, I was corporate Pretty boring, but like still like.
Speaker 2:Was that in relation to workplace law, like how people would be treated, or anything like that?
Speaker 1:Well, when I look back, I'd always done that. I'd always been involved in the HR, even as a lawyer. So it was just who I was was about empowering people, I think. And I think initially it was having to adjust, because I'd heard about autism and I'd heard about this theory of refrigerated mothers and things like that causing it. And then I looked at my son and went no way, you know, he's so creative. He had, he sings beautifully, he was amazing school, but he had trouble making friends and sitting at mat time Is he a musician.
Speaker 1:He is a filmmaker. Now he's at VCA doing film and loving it, just loving it.
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's awesome, that's awesome. But like I suppose, um, you know, moving on from that, sorry, I'll just um, you know, and probably going a bit more into about the work that you do, type of thing, so you know, like you were saying you were, you were at, um, Asperger's, victoria, there, um, you know, especially earlys, like, if I remember back to those days there was, you know, because I remember in school there was no way there was as much stuff as what there is now. It's sort of like we still got a long way to go, but back then there was even nothing really. So you know, what was it like? I suppose, starting off around that era there, out of curiosity, because, if I think about that era for me, I had full drug and alcohol addiction, I was off tap, so there's no way I was thinking, oh, you know, should I be doing stuff for neurodiversity? So it's interesting to maybe hear what was happening around that era, if that's cool.
Speaker 1:Well, we had Amaze it just changed their name to amaze. When I and um, we had um, a couple of small organizations, but there wasn't a lot of support and there was minimal understanding in schools. I found which was. It was astonishing because when you look now you realize at least a quarter of the kids in every class are neurodivergent in some way. How those kids got through and they're the ones. So that's where I am coaching midlife, because they're the ones that went through without support and often some of them went through and sort of forced themselves into a mould and then get to midlife and have a crisis because suddenly it really doesn't make sense and anxiety and stress is built up.
Speaker 2:Or could you even say that you learn about who you are. So now you're like oh my God, now I can take the mask off and start living my normal life, and you know. But every trauma and all of that that's happened in the past starts flooding in because you're like man.
Speaker 3:That was because of this yeah, yeah, it's a whole process and then, and then there's also the um sorry I think we may have a little lag here um but then there's also the process of grief that you go through We've spoken about that a couple of times in the podcast where you sort of look back and go, wow, you know the support that I didn't get, the way things could have been different. And you do sort of go through that period before you sort of learn to adjust and accept the way things are and you know and ultimately feel better because you can move forward with a better understanding and more tools to equip you to succeed. But yeah, definitely a process. Did you have to deal with a bit of that?
Speaker 1:A little bit, you know, realising what sort of schools. You sort of assume that any school would be fine, but then there were schools that would refuse to have autistic kids, and there are still some?
Speaker 3:now I mean, like with midlife people.
Speaker 1:Do you come across a lot of midlife people who Definitely people who definitely it's um, it's a whole hindsight sort of, it's you looking back across your whole history and rewriting it in some ways, and some of it's fantastic because you realize there was something else going on and that you wouldn't, you weren't defective, you were just different and you did things differently and that people just didn't understand, whereas now, at least you know, we've done as a community across Australia, we've done so much around building understanding and neurodivergence and, as you say, well, we're getting there, but there's more to go.
Speaker 1:But the people who are getting diagnosed now are often parents who are having their kids diagnosed much earlier, like some kids diagnosed before school, which is fabulous, you know, it's fabulous, and that child can then build their self-understanding as well as that parent support them better. And then the parent has that real of wow, that's how I was and you know, school wouldn't do anything for me, um, and then the parent can open up with right, this, this is how my mind works. So I wonder if that helps my child can see it.
Speaker 2:They can.
Speaker 2:They've almost lived the um, the life of the child before the child has lived it, if that makes sense, so they're able to maybe make better decisions based on certain things.
Speaker 2:It's almost like I don't have children, but, like you know, and I think back to when I was in school and I used to get in trouble for a lot of stuff and I'd be afraid to go home and tell my mum and dad that I got in trouble because I thought I'd get in trouble again, you know, and it was clearly the teacher was bullying. And you know, because when you're a neurodivergent kid especially like I was ADHD, didn't even know I was struggled with everything You're a burden on the teacher. So they, a lot of them, don't like you, not all of them, some of them do. So you know, I think you know, maybe if I was to be a parent now, I'd be able to see straight through that type of stuff and be like hang on, don't tell me that my son's this, this is a daughter or whatever it is. We're able to see it a lot better, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we're getting there.
Speaker 3:There's also. There would be a lot of issues just with the lack of education, not to denigrate parents at all, but there would be parents who also didn't understand. So in some cases those kids might have gone home and gotten in trouble again, because the parents also don't know what's going on, as well as the teachers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's part of midlife, because often there's a bit of trauma, because our neurodivergent community are far more sensitive to everything, but including that sort of negativity and the trauma of the fear of not being able to tell your parents things and not to be yourself. So then, midlife, that unravels a lot of the time with hormones and everything else that comes in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, but you know, I think it's. I think it'd be cool to maybe get a little bit more in depth into this. So you know, obviously we're here to speak about midlife and neurodivergent relationships, all of that. So how has neurodivergence shaped your midlife relationships? And I don't know if I've really put it that way or just put it in whatever way you wanted to explain it, but you know, I think it might be important to maybe share what this is, you know, and maybe how it has affected you, if that's what you want to share, of course yeah, I mean I suppose mine's not a happy story.
Speaker 1:In some sense, I've learned so much about myself and about relationships and that's why I want to do this coaching, so I can help and support others with this. There's minimal support for neurodivergent people. Going through this is what I've realised. I'm going through the end of divorce and coming out the other side and I think I'm a much better person for where I am and what I've learned um, but it's a hard transition and um I don't want others to go through this. So if there's ways, I I you know I've developed ways I can support people um neurodivergent families and neurodivergent so they don't go through the level of um the experience that I've been through and hopefully have that self-awareness and are pre-ready for how to manage this, because relationships are just really hard in our space with communication differences. It just sets you up for a challenging relationship if you're not prepared and if you don't know what to put in the work, and I'd say I failed in some ways in that myself putting in the work.
Speaker 2:Was that? Would you say and share as much and as little as you like, you know? Was that prior to say your divorce? Or after, like especially when you and I were on the phone? We're talking about the shock. Do you know what I mean? And Fona and John, you were talking about like realisation of certain things. You know what was that? Was it? Do you sort of get to that shock sort of level and then you're like, oh my God, now I see everything that got to this point, type of thing, or why didn't I do this? Or I don't know.
Speaker 1:There is yeah, there's a great unravelling, I think, where you go through the realisation, that shock. You know, in our community we're not great on transitions and that's like an instant transition a lot of the time and having to not just manage it for yourself, you're managing it for your neurodivergent family, your kids. So it's a really tricky process to be going through. And even if you weren't going through a divorce, relationships at this stage of life are challenged, I think, because the kids are getting older. It's a different life stage. They're not as dependent on you. A lot of them move out of home, like Jack is off at uni and so and then they probably get girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever, and then they're living their own life and it probably happens like sorry, how old is your, your youngest son?
Speaker 1:the youngest is 16.
Speaker 2:Eldest is 23 oh, okay, but it probably feels like your 16 year old was only born not long ago, correct?
Speaker 1:so all of a sudden, this changes absolutely, absolutely, it's full-on, it's um. So, yeah, I'm doing a cdc, um, it's a globally certified divorce coaching course. And if you and I've done a trauma course and, uh, you know, I'm catching up. I love learning, as you know, sort of adhd, uh, neurotypic neurodivergent space um, I'm quite typical in that I love having another course, um, but you know, if I can sort of empower others so they don't go through this, that would be fantastic are you having many people reaching out to you about it actually like, oh my god, yeah, I'm going through this at the moment?
Speaker 2:or do you get maybe people who are um feeling like it may be getting to that point, if that makes sense?
Speaker 1:well, I suppose I've been doing the midlife coaching even when I was at AV and it would. Even then I was coaching people in this space, but probably not from such a lived experience lens of it all going pear-shaped in the learning I've got now. Um, so I've been in that space for a while and had people reaching out just was mainly work issues and when relationships impacted work and a bit of you know other relationships. So it's been there for a while. But I think now I've got a new lens that's even more expansive and a lot more learning that I can share and support people with.
Speaker 2:Lived experience is the key right.
Speaker 1:It is In our space. No one else can understand it. But even then, lived experience is very individual. But you still get. You're more open to hearing other people's experiences and understanding.
Speaker 2:This is different there's some similarity, yeah yeah, no, crazy, crazy um. Out of curiosity, how do neurodivergent adults adjust relationship expectations in midlife? Do you think?
Speaker 3:um, and if I could just add a little addendum to this, um, as a 43 year old neurodivergent man who decided to stay single nearly nine years ago now because relationships were just a lot um yeah how do you get out of that? What's it like? What's it like for you know, I've sort of come to this real understanding of myself while single and I haven't had a relationship since. I've come to understand myself better and I'm very unsure how I would re-enter that market, especially understanding what you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's actually so critical is that self-understanding and understanding your neurodivergence, because when you come into a relationship, it becomes a mirror often, you know. So you're mirroring to each other your characteristics and so it can emphasise parts about yourself and you can, you know, and it's a negotiation, it's almost a dance. So there's three things there's you, you know, and it's a negotiation, it's almost a dance. So there's three things there's you, the other person and the relationship. So, but having that self-understanding, so then you can communicate, work out what you need and how relationships need to be for you, where your boundary needs to be, um, where your stress will be, um.
Speaker 1:Sorry if my earpod just dropped out um your love languages, how you express love which is not just to someone who's intimate with you, be generally um, and and and having that emotional work that you've probably done in the meantime is really powerful. I think that's really you know good of you to do that. You know it's sort of like respecting the other person. I'm going to come into this as a certain type of person, so yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, you know it's interesting because, let's say, the, the, the modern dating world these days is very um, let's say, it's completely different to say even what it was 2020. I'm thinking in the 90s not that I was, I was only new to dating back then. I think I was 18 or something like that. But you know, and I think Frodo and Jon and myself, you know, in a way, that was sort of why we started the podcast, not for dating, but we'd actually we were sort of like it was incredibly hard to find friends. As neurodivergent people, I think we could find friends quite easy, but like it was difficult to find the friends that met maybe our needs type of thing, and then we were looking at it from a relationship perspective as well. So you know, I think some of the difficulties and Photon, john, you can chime in if you like on this as well. Hang on, just let me finish this for a second, then you can chime in.
Speaker 2:Right, you know we were sort of going look, there's certain and like you spoke about it before Tamsin is that we do have certain needs and wants. I suppose that we really, you know, admire or really want, but sometimes trying to get that across to people right from the beginning is incredibly difficult without them thinking what the hell is this person, this person's weird, you know? So we were actually looking at trying to develop an app pardon me sorry where, um, we would be able to be up front with a lot of those things still in the works. All that's probably a long-term project, but, um, I I think it. It is so vital at that early stage of you, you know, creating a relationship or friendship, which it usually starts off as because I think that it's the problems down the track that that's where people start going. Well, I didn't sign up for this, I didn't sign up to, you know, be this and that, if that makes sense, exactly.
Speaker 3:And you will grow and change go and I think will and I, you know we weren't like we.
Speaker 3:We became closer later in our friendship, but in the beginning we would just see each other around because will was, um, covering bands and doing interviews and stuff and I was playing around and um, but uh, just our friendship in the beginning was just like, from across the room we just played, I get your energy and you know we seemed to just instinctively understand each other. So that was cool. But yeah, and we both felt very similarly that it's hard to fight Once we both started to go on our journey and discover our own neurodivergence. It is really important right in the beginning there to set all the right boundaries and explain all the right things, but that can be so difficult as well. I'm still learning now what my needs are and how to communicate them, and then the balance between what is my need and what is something where I actually just need to give a little bit as a good friend or a good partner, and that can be quite complicated to figure out sometimes yeah, I I agree.
Speaker 1:When I was at um av, one of the key things I really saw was when we had our peer groups and our um employment activities and we'd bring everyone together who in in neurodivergent space.
Speaker 1:There were no communication issues, or there are a lot less, and there's like this whole different energy because everyone communicates in a similar way and it's like I think it was described by Ian Perkis as it's like it's their own culture and when neurodivergent people get together it's slightly less stressful. The communication approach and I think you see it in relationships that you know I ended up with someone who is neurodivergent and I've grown up in a neurodivergent. You know I've got that and you do tend to gravitate. And I look at my second child, who is not his you know, new typical kind of in our house and he gravitates to neurodivergent friends. A lot of his best friends are. So it's kind of like because he yeah, you're in that space and I think that's great. But very important.
Speaker 2:To know yourself and how to be authentic is probably the hardest part in our space and you know, you know what I I've and I sort of spoke about this with you on the phone this afternoon, tanzan is that when I've been around certain people in the neurodiversity community, it's almost the openness is more accepted. And when I mean openness, I've heard some really full-on stuff from some people where people would be like if that was just to say, if you shared that in somewhere that wasn't in the neurodiversity community, people would be like whoa, what's?
Speaker 2:up with this person but in our community it's almost like it's just normal, if that makes sense and and it's almost a sigh of relief when you can be in that and you're not seen as maybe weird, or it's almost a sigh of relief when other people are just as weird as you are. I don't know if that's the word I'm looking for, but maybe that's just how I felt from other people outside of the community. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, that sort of acceptance that you might do things differently. You know, and you know oh, don't worry, that's how he does that you know. It's far more accepting and understanding where you're coming from, that you're not doing it to hurt other people or anything. It's just how you are.
Speaker 3:Or you know it's just.
Speaker 3:Would it be correct to say that you know, because neurodivergence is such a broad term, it can be a lot of different things, but given that we all understand that some people have different brains, given that we all understand that some people have different brains, we don't need to understand why or how they got to the behaviour or the thing they said or the way that they are. We just are more willing to accept that that might not mean what it seems like it means, whereas I think a lot of neurotypical people will look at a neurodivergent person's behaviour and go, oh well, in my head, you do that because you're like this and they're not thinking they're not understanding.
Speaker 2:You're wild.
Speaker 3:That their way of thinking themselves into that behaviour is fundamentally different to how that person might have gotten there. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think there's a lot of compassion in our community where you know people are really willing to give others their platform and accept it. I mean, that's not everyone. There are some judgmental people in our community, absolutely, but often they sort of gradually soften. They actually see how that sort of stuff is accepted. So, yeah, we're getting there, we're improving how we educate others and so they understand where we're all coming from.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know, you just think back five or more years, you know, and just how much things have changed. Then you go 10, 20, and it's like barely existed. So yeah, I'm happy with the progress, but unhappy with the progress, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can always do more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I do believe we've lost Will. I think this is a first.
Speaker 1:Did we just lose Will? We did lose Will. Okay.
Speaker 3:So we will just wait. I think we lost our lag, though, so we might know where the culprit was coming from. Oh, okay, but I mean, I guess, with that side of things, when you're first coming to a person midlife and starting to coach them, what are the common questions that you might hear?
Speaker 1:I just want to hear their story, and it's really giving someone a chance to really tell their story without judgment. You just as a you know and I recommend this for everyone if you just sit and listen to people, it's so powerful and then you have a chance to sort of reflect back what you've heard. And in coaching that's the key thing it's often just reflecting back and then when people hear you say it, they go oh yeah, you're right. I'm like no, you said it, not me.
Speaker 1:I'm just reflecting back what you said, and this is something you could think about. You know, sort of you give some coaching around options if it's needed, but yeah, it's really much, it's very much. Yeah, we lost you Will.
Speaker 2:Welcome back Will.
Speaker 3:I think that is a neurodivergent mates.
Speaker 2:First, yeah, I know I was thinking oh my god, are they gonna be right without? Me, yeah, like come on and you guys just kept on flowing, so that was good that was good for some reason my. I just lost internet connection, so okay.
Speaker 3:Well, the lag seems to have fixed up now too, so that's good.
Speaker 2:So I'm just trying to think what we were up to. How do neurodivergent adults adjust relationship expectations in midlife? Did we just answer that one before?
Speaker 3:A little bit, but I think we did, I think we did, I think we're actually on to this one what support helps neurodivergent adults with midlife relationship issues?
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I think I'll just go back to the last one. The one thing I'd say I didn't actually get to say before is that often trying to mask our community will do people pleasing where they compromise themselves so that other people feel okay, because often we're quite sensitive and open and we will shut down. And I think that was a big issue in my own relationship that you know you have to actually look after yourself and express yourself authentically, because otherwise people don't really get to know you. It's this image of you, and so then when you hit hard times, that inauthentic image can crumble. And yeah, so it's really important to be authentic that was the support.
Speaker 3:Sorry, that was such a huge thing for me when I was having relationships in my whole life until I had this big break, because I recognized that I needed to have that break and figure some stuff out. But it was. I was just like you know. Everyone I was with seemed to be in love with this image of me and I thought it was something to do with being a musician or whatever on stage or putting me on a pedestal. It wasn't that. It was that I didn't know what I needed to communicate, what my needs were, how to communicate it effectively. I was trying but I had no idea and so I wasn't effectively communicating who I was and I was people-pleasing a little bit because I was a bit self-conscious about my neurodivergence and I wanted to. You know, I've always been strange and I was self-conscious about being strange, so I was trying to be all these things that I wasn't. I wasn't communicating very effectively and I didn't understand what my needs were very well, and that'll sort of change but, I, did just want to ask.
Speaker 3:There's probably a subset of people listening right now if they notice this topic. What if you're in a relationship? What have you been married for many years and then suddenly this diagnosis happens? How do you adjust at that that point? What's sort of the common pilots there?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's the same sort of principles as then exploring yourself as you are, with that realisation, and then keeping the channels of communication open and finding new.
Speaker 1:There probably are better ways that you didn't know you could access, that were there, and that realisation you can do things differently and it's all okay and it'll be better.
Speaker 1:I think you know the diagnosis often creates this whole revelation and you actually have a much better opportunity in your relationships because it's really authentically you and I think it still comes back in our community to you know, feeling safe enough in the relationship to be yourself and to say what you need, your communication, how you need to communicate, and also then also realising you really need to listen as well to the other person.
Speaker 1:Always is that give and take and understanding it from your new perspective of yourself. Um, and with all of that, you might have new perspective on your stress and and your love languages and all that sort of thing unravels once you had that diagnosis. So you're not quite a new person, but you've got a new perspective of yourself and how you like things and how you explain yourself. I think is probably, and for your partner to understand that and come on the journey with you is really important. Um, I think often that's where some relationships will part ways, um, and so that's really important to work on. It's a joint journey that you're on in a relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting, interesting, interesting. You know, going on from that, what support helps neurodivergent adults with? I think you sort of answered that question. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think so yeah, the five key areas as far as I've seen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we might go to coaching is what else and self-work.
Speaker 1:What you've done is really important, that self-work where you're getting to know yourself and and coaching helps with that you can point you in the right direction and help bring it out. But then there's also that time where you might need to work on your stress management techniques and pre-plan your communication with your partner. You know, thinking about how, if it's something you want to conflict, you need to manage, pre-planning it. You know there's all sorts of sensory approaches you can think about and prepare yourself as well, empower yourself. You don't need the coach in that the coach just gives you the tools.
Speaker 2:The tools, yeah.
Speaker 1:But you can do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting. So, you know and we're talking about people pleasing before and you know, I remember I was with one of my exes and I should have left her a long time before I did, and I think a big thing for me was like, oh my God, this person, I'm going to break their heart or whatever that is. So that was on my mind and I didn't want to be that person. And then, you know, it ended up turning out that she ended up finding another person leaving me anyway. So I should have just done it anyway.
Speaker 2:But what I'm sort of getting at was, you know, and I sort of blamed myself for a while there because I was like, you know, why didn't I leave earlier? Why did I let this happen? And you know, for me it took me having to move overseas, travel and refine myself just to build that, you know, because I think as well, sometimes when you're in maybe what do you call it like unhealthy relationships, a lot of things are said and it can really knock that self-confidence. So it really took me having to move overseas, to go and meet a lot of people and, you know, for people to be like, oh yeah, will is cool, and it made me think oh yeah, I am a good person, people do like me and all of that type of stuff. But you know, I will admit that.
Speaker 2:You know, after that I was single for like nine years or something because I was like I think a big thing was like going oh my God, I've just come out of that relationship where I couldn't even really be myself, I don't think, and then sort of basing every other relationship on that. So it's like, oh my God, I need everyone else who I need to meet is going to this, and when I explain this, they're going to be like oh my God, I need everyone else who I need to meet is going to this, and when I explain this, they're going to be like oh my God, that's strange, or whatever like that. So I think that was the hard part really trying to find those next people, or even just being around people who understood.
Speaker 3:And you can't forget too, like in all of this, there is another person you know and you can be forget too. Like in all of this, there is another person you know and, um, you can be as authentic as you want you can, you can understand your needs as well as you want, but the other person has to actually, you know, make the effort to understand this. And if they're neurodivergent, it's a two-way street. But even if they're not, it's still a two-way street as a relationship. Um, you need to be aware of of how your neurodivergence might affect them and do your best to manage anything that might be negative about that. But they also need to have a built-in understanding that you're doing your best. There might be a failure rate built in with what you're doing and make some accommodations as well, and neurotypical people have accommodations that they require, sometimes just attached to their personality.
Speaker 3:They're like, well, I'm this kind of person, so you know, so it it, yeah, but that yeah that other person does does need to make the effort to understand what you're communicating to them about your brain and how it works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but do you know what right I found that when especially like I, you know, because dating changed after I broke up with one of my exes, like it went into the whole uh, you go on to a dating app and all of that and I just felt I couldn't be my authentic self, where before that, I was able to meet people and people could be like, oh my god, will's really cool because they understand my personality, but you can't get that through a dating app, which was really difficult. So what I was finding was I'd be meeting people and I just kept on meeting the same similar type of people who I just no longer wanted to be around, if that makes sense. So they were into heavy drinking, still into drug use and stuff like that, and I'm like, oh my God, and I remember even thinking. I'm like is this, you know, is this what I need to be to attract someone? Do you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean, I'm like there's got to be different ways. And that almost caused depression and anxiety within myself, because it's like I'm trying to do good now, I'm trying to do way better than what I did back in the day, but it's like I'm getting dealt a bad hand. What have I done wrong? Type of thing.
Speaker 1:So that's self-doubt and confidence starts to lack yeah, absolutely, and that energy drawing in the wrong people, um. But with all of this, it's all about safety, isn't it safety to be yourself and finding those spaces where you can, um, find people who you can be safe with. I mean, I know there is that sort of thought that with the dating app, at least you know they're interested in dating, you're not just going somewhere and there's people who are not interested and you're trying to, you talk to them with a different intention, so at least you're all there with the same intention.
Speaker 2:The only thing I've found with dating apps, for example right and you know, maybe I'm wrong is that because it's like a competition. Do you know what I mean? It's like playing bingo or something like that. Sorry, my cat's jumping up on me.
Speaker 2:So, like you know, you will connect with someone and, as an ADHDer, you're like, oh my God, here's someone new, let's start talking. And that person may not even start talking to you for days and it's really incredibly hard. And then you might be like, hi, how's it going? And they're like, yeah, good. And then you're going on a date and it's draining. You know it's so draining. Um, I don't know, it was just so draining. But I think the biggest thing I found was that what I enjoyed, especially making friends, was going and doing volunteer work where I didn't have to be around drinking or taking drugs. All of that. Actually, it was funny because I was around, all of that. I was actually helping homeless people on the weekends who were drunk and on drugs, but you know, we were helping them but you were there doing something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was finding I was meeting really cool people.
Speaker 2:So I think the hard thing is realising that the dating apps, for example, aren't the only way to meet people. How do we find?
Speaker 1:these other ways. I reckon it's, you know, finding places where you can belong. You know, like I'm not saying Asperger's Victoria, but what I'm saying is things like playing sport or you know, like golf is good, or swimming is more of a neurodivergent thing, or, you know, joining council activities like cleanups and things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, can I say, you can get out there, well, even just what I do within the community. So putting a podcast on speaking at events. I know that's business for me, but I meet so many people and it's like that's like my drug, if that makes sense because I'm meeting all these people. I, I connect with them. Hey, what's going on? I make? I'm always, you know, reaching, I know I reach out to you sometimes, tamsin, and just start conversations and stuff like that, because I just crave social interaction um and this has sort of helped with that, but sometimes it's not enough if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's that extrovert side of you. I suppose it's harder for the introverts among us who don't get the energy from being amongst people and that isolation they can feel. But you know, we talked about earlier how sometimes, even within a relationship, you can feel lonely and isolated if you're neurodivergent, especially if you can't be or you don't feel safe to really be authentic.
Speaker 2:Well, I found that like the pandemic was really bad for that for me. So my partner she was was working, she was doing all the covid testing, so she was crazy busy. I was just at home on my own the whole time and I was just going insane like I have never, because, like I would go to bed when my partner would get home, she would wake up together, she'd go to work and then I'd be on my own the whole day.
Speaker 2:Then she'd come home, so it was like I never saw anyone yeah you didn't get that energy fix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was crazy and that was where I really learned about like loneliness, especially within relationships as well, and, um, you know how hard that is to to deal with type of thing. Um, and it could even be not having guy friends to go and just talk about guy stuff, or chick friends to speak about women's stuff, and you know. Or even a guy speaking having like I have a lot of female friends as well, yeah, and you know just all of that type of stuff, you know, and it's really interesting. Once, I think the pandemic really opened my mind to that.
Speaker 1:We have to make an effort in a way, if you really want that connection, that energy connection.
Speaker 3:There's actually a study I think it was where was it? Yeah, oxford that showed, on average, the men who have the best mental health and feel most satisfied with their personal lives and their relationships spend two nights a week with their friends. So you know whether you agree with the number or not, it's an element that does actually have to happen. Hello everyone. By the way, Sorry I dropped it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're jinked. Hey, you're back. You guys are taking turns.
Speaker 3:We were talking before we jumped on about. We were saying you know, one day we'll have money for a producer and a technical guy to make sure everything runs smoothly. And you were saying Tamsin, oh, but I like the DIY. You know? Authentic vibe. Was that authentic enough for you? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was great. You know one goes off, the other comes on, you know Because that's what we do every episode, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, this is two episodes in a row for me.
Speaker 2:Well, it was lucky that it wasn't like an episode when it was just you and me, Photon John. That would have been awkward.
Speaker 3:How do I keep on talking?
Speaker 2:here, but we have had that happen in the past actually, but you know, moving on from this Tamsin. So how do menopause or other midlife changes affect neurodivergent relationships?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that menopause and hormone change, midlife is another. It's a bit like neurodivergence and how autism was. There's hardly anything known about it. And you look at all the stuff about pregnancy and hormone changes around that. There is masses, there's volumes, there's research, there's all sorts of stuff when it comes to menopause or for men it's andropause. At the same time there's nothing, there's hardly anything, and what happens is it sort of sneaks up on you. You get this hormone change and it affects your mood, affects your sleep. You can't sleep, you get more anxious generally, and women who are neurodivergent had a midlife crisis Like that's way beyond.
Speaker 2:At what age, out of curiosity.
Speaker 1:So midlife, I think, is from early mid-40s until you know 60.
Speaker 2:So we're getting towards that age. Food on john something to look forward to, brother.
Speaker 3:Yeah but I think it's important to know about and prepare can you prepare for it?
Speaker 1:oh, understanding that some people think that they're getting depressed and they've got, or you know, there's all sorts of or it might be their autism or their ADHD. But it's actually bigger than that. It's their natural hormones are dropping off which help monitor their mood and their life. And to understand that that started and it's happening, at least you can start to put things into place, to manage it into place, to manage it. And also because your relationships you know there's a lot of conflict around the fact that you know your expectations in relationships change as well. And if you don't understand it and the general community doesn't understand it, then it's a big issue. But I have heard I'm coaching a lawyer going for partnership and her law firm actually has a menopause policy.
Speaker 3:That just came in to help them, and andropause.
Speaker 1:Yeah, andropause policy because of these crises that hit especially in law firms. There's so many neurodivergent professionals like the highest.
Speaker 2:And I didn't realise yeah, so I didn't realise until I started listening to a few like panels on like this that we would see a lot of women would retire in like their early 50s and people just thought, okay, that was normal for women to retire then. But they're saying that that's probably because menopause and all of that. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a crisis and you look at work. Is it work? Is it my relationship or what is it? And often at work, because you're finding difficulty with sleep and that sort of thing or your relationship issues are slamming you in the background, your work is affected, um, and often until now you really couldn't talk about. Oh, you know, I've got andropause, I've got a midlife crisis. It was sort of covered up, um, so at least that's becoming something that's getting more, more spoken about and understood.
Speaker 3:So you know we talk a lot on this podcast about things you know, like I was talking to my mum and her friend the other day about how people, the younger generation in particular they're all about kindness and they learn a lot more about how people can be different. They learn a lot more about neurodivergence than we ever did, which was nothing. But you know, society is learning more and more to just be a bit kinder. When you don't understand something Is a midlife crisis, maybe something we need to just take a bit more compassion to when we see someone we know or love going through it, because it's potentially to do with hormonal change and I think that's spot on.
Speaker 1:It's that compassion and accepting that people will struggle at stages and you know, that's that whole movement around more understanding with mental health generally, I think, which is great.
Speaker 3:People really write them off and understanding yeah. When they're going through a midlife crisis.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the reason why they write them off is like they're thinking oh, they're lazy, they just don't understand it, you know, and it probably presents in a way that they're not working and how they used to work and it's very hard to explain and for neurodivergent people that sounds very familiar yeah so it is.
Speaker 1:It's this bigger thing of being understanding and accepting that someone's mood at that time and it's not your responsibility to change their mood. That's your boundary and you know managing that part of the relationship for you at work and at home.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting as well. You know it's it's interesting as well. Like this might sound funny, but like we're seeing, like uh, going back to dating and all that type of stuff as well, um, a lot of people are dating different ages now. So some men are dating older women or some, um, or some older men are dating older women, or some older men are dating younger women, or vice versa, or whatever. That looks like right. Wonder, like that would be. I'm just trying to think how I word it. I wonder how you know, because like people just wouldn't know about what's going on with that type of stuff, and how would people, I suppose, cope when, in those types of relationships, I wonder, because things would change. Say, if you know, I'm not sure, like I don't know, sex drives change or whatever like that, and then you know it's, I don't know. Is that an argument for?
Speaker 3:age-appropriate dating. What's that? Sorry, I said, is that an argument for age-appropriate dating? Oh, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:But like you would get into that and let's say you've been dating someone for quite a while who's older than you or whatever, Then these things start to happen. You're like, oh my God, I'm never dating someone older than me again, because you know that was just grumpy, I don't know, you know, it's just interesting, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose that's ageism coming in as another thing. Isn't it another factor? You've got all sorts of different isms that impact our perspective of other people yeah, oh, that's not that's not me being ageist, but I'm not saying that like, like that's a thing.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:But um, yeah, I worry about being that older guy. You know what I mean. That's why I'm definitely looking for someone my age, but I think you know. Bringing it back around to the kindness thing, I think what Will's talking about. You know what is it endopause, menopause and you know divergence. I think, in general, just there is an overarching theme of just a bit more kindness and compassion and not being so quick to judge other people's situations, you know.
Speaker 1:And self-compassion I mean there's huge amounts of work on that.
Speaker 2:I'm not ready to go. I'm still learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Crazy, crazy. We're getting to the end of the podcast, so you know what advice would you give neurodivergent individuals navigating midlife relationships and all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think that does come back to what we just said. You know exploring yourself and do what you can to learn more about yourself. Don't assume you know everything.
Speaker 2:And maybe your partner as well, correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, continue to learn. Be open to learning and growing, I think, is the thing, because a life is one. I think someone said recently every 18 months you go through a transition in your life. So you know, thinking that life hasn't changed is not going to protect you, because it's going to hit you harder. So I think it's being open to change and growing, learning about yourself, learning about other people and if that's through coaching, that helps you, gives you more tools and more perspective of yourself. Yes, or other mentoring is another getting a mentor, but being open to knowing more about yourself and the world around you, and I think our community and neurodivergent are fantastic at getting this great general knowledge about everything that's out there, that inquisitive approach, and then then needs to come back to yourself and relationships as well, where we can struggle crazy, crazy awesome stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no. Thank you so much. Look awesome topic to talk about, very interesting. I think it's something we've definitely been interested in talking about before. I wasn't 100 sure how the topic, what sort type of area it was going to go into, so tamden. Thank you so much for coming on today but for the therapy session.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah hopefully photon john can go away and, um, uh, you know, get some tips on to help him with some stuff, and I can definitely take a lot of stuff away to help with my relationship, all of that type of stuff. But if people can want to connect with you or find out a bit more about your work, where's the best place to go?
Speaker 1:It's probably at the moment my Facebook page, the Neurodiversity Coach, and on LinkedIn, just up there as tans and jowett. That's the best connect through. I've got calendly um links in there so you can set up to have a free chat with me um, just to see what I can do what with what you issues you're facing and how we could go forward. So I I think that's probably the easiest, isn't it? I don't have a website yet. I'm still just under development.
Speaker 2:Oh, good Many of us? Yeah, we'll get there, got to start somewhere. Right, got to start somewhere.
Speaker 1:Exactly. If you want an SEO, just yeah.
Speaker 2:If you want SEO? See photo on John john. He'll be able to help you, oh really he's the king with seo perfect, that's great okay, we can.
Speaker 1:We've got a. Yeah, we can do something there, but thank you so much for having me and, um, I know we didn't get much time to prepare and whatever, but I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:No, I think we actually did pretty well. I think you know, like we said, we had no idea what it would sort of go off, as we had no plan, but we made it happen. So we appreciate you coming and coming on the podcast on short notice. I thank you so much, you nailed it. What do you reckon Photon John? Okay? So, thank you so much, you nailed it. What do you reckon Photon John? Okay, I reckon you're absolutely right. Yeah, excellent, we both get a bit of therapy out of this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, totally totally, totally.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think you're going to be an awesome coach, so thank you so much for coming on, Samson.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So, for all of our listeners out there, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. My name is Will Wheeler. Join with my main friend, Photon John, and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Until next time you.