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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Supporting Healthy Coping and Functioning Strategies - Anthony Tucker (Tuck)
Join us in this episode of Neurodivergent Mates as we chat with Anthony Tucker (Tuck), a close friend and advocate for neurodivergent individuals. We’ll explore the challenges of discovering healthy coping strategies, the impact of neurodivergence on personal growth, and how identity issues can shape recovery from substance use.
Tuck shares practical tips for building routines that support mental health, along with the vital role community plays in maintaining these strategies. Don’t miss this insightful conversation on resilience, self-compassion, and the path to recovery.
Questions
- Tell us a bit about yourself.
- Tell us a bit about your work.
- What challenges did you face in discovering healthy coping strategies?
- How does neurodivergence affect developing coping mechanisms?
- How do identity issues impact recovery from substance use for neurodivergent people?
- What tips do you have for building functional routines to support mental health?
- How does community support help in recovery and maintaining coping strategies?
- Where can people connect with you and your work?
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with my special guest, anthony Tuck, who's going to be talking about supporting healthy coping and functioning strategies. Tuck, what's going on, my friend? Hello mate, how are you today? Yeah, yeah, you know, can't complain, it was actually interesting. Tuck and I were Tuck's from Adelaide, or Radelaide, they like to call it down there, am I right, mate? I forget you have to leave that one alone.
Speaker 1:Oh really, You've got to leave that one alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we've seen that one. I think we're over that one.
Speaker 1:Okay, because you know the funniest thing about it when the only people who seem to call it radelaide are people from adelaide themselves. So, um, that was an interesting one when I heard that, but, um, no, oh good, it was actually interesting because before we started the podcast, we're talking about, uh, where tucks from, and we'll talk a little bit about the football as well. So tucks are um, port adelaide supporter and we're just talking about a little bit about how much adelaide has changed. So, for those of you who don't know, I used to have to do a little bit of work down in adelaide and I spent a little bit of time in port adelaide there and just how much it's growing. And you know, um, yeah, it's been quite interesting, but how do you reckon the boys went this year?
Speaker 2:well, not too bad, mate, like it's been a challenging year. But how do you reckon the boys went this year? Well, not too bad, mate. Look, it's been a challenging year. It was a really close season. You followed a bit of AFL, so it was like one of those things one week you cheer and the next week you're crying. Port Adelaide are parochial. So one week we love our team, the next week we sack the coach and we've moved out. Yeah, by the end of the season it was okay. We finished third, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah you didn't do too bad. Hopefully next year's the year, right? It always seems like I'm sick of saying that Will, I'm so sick. Yeah, I reckon you would be. I reckon you would be. You know what. You know what. It's funny, right, because obviously, like I said before, but obviously, like I said before, I was brought up with Geelong, my father's from Geelong, so I was always like you've got to be a Geelong supporter, right. But I obviously lived up in Brisbane, right, and you know, obviously the Lions were quite a good team back in the day and it was Port Adelaide who knocked them off.
Speaker 2:In the end, it was you were, 2004, a very good year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then your other team in 2007 are the source of much of my PTSD. When you beat us in the grand final, by what was it? 100 and too many points in the grand final.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's just one of those things, but I think it just goes to prove how much, when your team does win the grand final, to savour that memory so much you know, because you don't know when you're going to get it again.
Speaker 2:Get it again, yeah. But yeah, but you know what happens, unless you're a Penrith supporter, of course.
Speaker 1:When you're a Penrith supporter.
Speaker 2:It's every year, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Supporter. Of course, when you're Penrith supporter, it's every year, isn't it? Yeah, oh my God. Oh my God, Do not get me started with Penrith. I liked Penrith when they weren't as good, but now it's just like.
Speaker 2:The underdog thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. You just want to see someone knock them off and it will happen. It always happens at some point. It's just a matter of when. But you know what, talking about all this heartache and that with the football, I think it probably works well into supporting healthy, coping and functioning strategies.
Speaker 2:What do you reckon, my friend? This is where you have to learn it. Through the fire is when you're learning coping strategies.
Speaker 1:Totally, mate, totally, totally. But look, before we do get started, I'll do just a little bit of housekeeping, if there's anyone who hasn't listened to us before. So if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x Twitch, youtube and LinkedIn, and please go check us out wherever you listen to your podcast. Please subscribe, rate the podcast. The more you can do that, the more the podcast gets out there through the algorithms. Also, if you haven't already done so, please check out the work we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy. You can check us out at neurodiversityacademycom. Also, on today's program or show, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1:I'll just do a little bit of a disclaimer, so warning some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies and if you have any questions, you know, feel free to put them in the comments section of the social media pages you might be watching the live version from. So we're currently on the live version at the moment and, look, I know there's a little bit of a delay through the live version, and all that for safety reasons. If we get it in time, we'll try and answer those questions as best as we can. Tuck you ready to rock and roll, my friend. Sure thing, you're born ready, mate, buzzer's ready. Buzzer is ready. All right, cool man, so easy question first. Well, it might not be that easy, who knows. But look, tell us a little bit about yourself, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I love talking about myself, not really. No, I'm. Where do I start? I grew up in a rural area of South Australia, like just past Adelaide Hills. My family were generational farmers, so I grew up there and you know I had a pretty good life out there on the farm, you know. But you know it had its challenges also, like my dad, um, you know he's he's a great guy, but he had his own challenges around um alcohol misuse, which which led to him and mum divorcing when I was quite young and with all the stuff that that brings. So so that was it there. And because I was on a farm, I got shipped off the back in the day, I got shipped off the boarding school. So you know that was another thing that you kind of learned.
Speaker 1:What type of farm was it out of?
Speaker 2:curiosity. Oh, we had a bit of everything, you know we had cereal crops and then also beef cattle and sheep as well. Did you have to deal with much drought? From what I remember, growing up, we lived right on the Finnis River, which is, I think, from memory carries the second largest amount of water of rivers in South Australia, right next to the Murray. So in wintertime sections of our property were quite flooded. But yeah, we did have to. You know it's very seasonal, like if anything's going to bring you drama in your life. Be a farmer. You know it's like you're in the middle of the. You know it's very seasonal, like if anything's going to bring your drama to your life, be a farmer, you know it's like yeah, it's like it's a hard road.
Speaker 1:Like I, I've watched some things about farmers and like at the moment that the farmers are doing quite well, which is really good, you know. But you know, for years those poor people have gone through heartache just to do what they love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's true, yeah, it's true, and we were like we went back on the farm a little bit like my brother and I, like there was only the two of us in our family. But you know, we were the last kind of generation of farmers. You know, it all got sold. It was just too difficult to do, you know. So, yeah, from there, for me, I was. You know, it all got sold, you know it was just too difficult to do, you know. So, yeah, from there, for me, I was.
Speaker 2:You know, I've done. The only thing that I have more of other than professions has been hobbies in my life. I've tried and done a bit of everything, but I've done everything else. I was a soldier, I was a farmer, I was a touring muso, I was, like, owned a small business and know, and then, uh, you know, life led me, you know, put one foot in the other, learn from one thing and go on to the next, and that's where I ended up where I am today. I work for mission australia today and, um, I came in starting work for mission um, what they call a community rehabilitation support worker, which is, um, someone that does case management, support for people that have got psychosocial disabilities and because of my management and business experience, you know, I've kind of moved on a little bit from there and in a management role there I'm the area manager, so I look after all our AOD and mental health programs for mission in Adelaide Metro and Southern SA, which is really really cool. I love it.
Speaker 1:No, that's cool. That's cool, Just out of curiosity. You were saying that you went to boarding school. Right yeah, how is boarding school for yourself? Was that a great experience, or was that quite difficult, or you know was there any struggles. Yeah, that was a challenge for me, you know.
Speaker 2:Was there any struggles? Yeah, that was a challenge for me. You know, like I'd and as we'll get on to, like most of my life, I didn't feel like I fitted in a lot of places. You know, I was always going. Why does it seem so much easier for everyone else, you know? And so boarding school wasn't much different than that. I got there and you know I wanted to be accepted and included and part of staff and you know I had pretty good friendships, but it just, you know, I was always the outer of the inner, you know, and so it was a challenge.
Speaker 2:You know, the boarding schools came with a fair level of bullying and things as you go, especially as a young kid going in. I went straight out of primary school. I was a 12 or 13 and moved away. My parents had just divorced, my dad was remarrying and there was so much kind of complexity around it and you kind of felt like it's another thing. You know, it was a challenging time, like it's one of those things you look back on and go oh yeah, I have some good memories from it, but there's also some some stuff in there you go.
Speaker 1:You know, crap, that was a bit hard yeah, totally so, and you know, I think sometimes, as harsh as it sounds, sometimes, that shapes us into the person, people that we are today you know, sometimes it's the challenging parts that and and you know I'm assuming as well probably with a lot of the stuff that you're doing now, you know some of that could have been, could be trauma or whatever that you've taken from those days in boarding school and you know your parents break up all of that am I correct yeah, I think you I think you're spot on, spot on Like I did lots of different things with work and with my personal life and just always felt like there was just something not quite right, like all those things and I'm sure a lot of people that are listening struggled with they're feeling like you know that negative messaging you get from a lot of stuff you know you don't fit.
Speaker 2:Struggled with feeling like you know that negative messaging you get from a lot of stuff you know you don't fit. And so, as almost a side note, I was down the street with my other half the other day and we bumped in a completely different city, bumped into a primary school teacher I had, and I recognised her. I said, oh, and she recognised me and she goes oh, anthony, and we stopped and had a chat, introduced her to my other half and talking about life and stuff, and she goes to. She said, oh, he's such a lovely young boy. The only thing we could never get him to concentrate is always daydreaming, you know, and she was in my first couple of grades, you know. So that's, you know, one of those things you go oh, the signs were there, but it just wasn't picked up on.
Speaker 1:So that was your ADHD, is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and like this is only a new discovery for me, like I went through life and I just kind of putting out spot fires and different things you know and trying to, and what we're talking about today is a bit of coping strategies and you know, a lot of my life was trying to put out the fires of symptoms and you know, in unhealthy and end up in healthy. I was always a heavy drinker, always wasn't great at relationships or romantic relationships and I just couldn't get it to make work and these were always like to cover things up. I didn't feel worthy and accepted, so I looked for places that I would feel worthy and accepted.
Speaker 1:And what were they? Out of curiosity, what were my strategies? Well, no, no, like you said, you would try and find places that were oh yeah. And you know, because I had, you know, big drinking problems and it was like and you don't realise it at the time, but like those, you're trying to go to places where you're accepted and it's like, okay, well, I'll go to a place where other people are drinking and they'll accept me because they'll be drinking as well, or whatever that was, and it was actually very unhealthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're exactly right, and the place is sweet. Like my dad, as I said, my dad was a drinker, and so when him and mum separated, when I was at his place, I grew up in the pub, you know, and so what did I see? My model of what a bloke was like and how he dealt with his life was he was drinking and he was womanizing and he was, you know, all these kind of kind of things, and so they're the kind of people that I was around and you know, mum was doing her best to kind of, you know, keep me on the right track.
Speaker 2:Um, but, um, you know, where would you rather be as a pre-teen, teenager, boy? Would you rather be at home, sitting with your mum, or down the pub with your dad, walking the streets and hanging out? You know, and that was me, you know, up to no good. So, you know, that was kind of what I got from that. You know, at that age Dad was a good fella and had a lot of friends, but he, you know, that was the kind of things that I saw.
Speaker 1:But you know, I don't know if it's the same with you, but at that time, you know, if I think back to when I was younger and you know, really getting introduced to a lot of that stuff, you don't see it as a problem back in those days. No, you know people who struggle with that stuff. Right, that's not you, that's other people. Do you know what I mean? That's what you're thinking in your head, you know. And then you start to see that you know, especially like some of the stuff that I had going on, it's like, oh, hang on, what I'm dealing with with actually a lot of other people aren't like this you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean they don't get blackout drunk every, every weekend and all of that type of stuff. And that's where you start to go oh my god, this is a problem yeah, and I think I was.
Speaker 2:I was surrounding myself with people that were the same. You know you're looking for places of belonging and for me I was a muso so I was playing all the time and you know we'd be touring. So you'd pull into a town and play one night and that might be everyone you bump into. That's their night of the week partying. But then you're on to another place the next night and that's their one night of the week. But every night of the week is your night of the week with your party and sometimes you're getting paid in alcohol as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know you're getting your ride, you're getting all of that type of stuff. So you know it's like you can't and almost as well right, like, say, like a lot of these big famous rock stars we see that you know, some of them into their 60s or whatever, are in and out of rehab and all of that stuff, because you just can't escape that lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for me, like I remember, I never thought it was a problem. You know what I mean. In hindsight, I go, yeah, I was just wasting my time, and you know the things that I went through after that is that you know the guilt and the shame that comes with that after what you see is a wasted life or wasted this, and it's just really made me think. It wasn't until much later that I actually re-evaluated that time, because it got worse. Like anything, if you don't deal with it, you're just throwing Band-Aids over the same issues, not dealing with issues. Also, your relationship problems that come with it, your inability to stay connected or to stay focused, all these kind of things that play with it.
Speaker 2:yeah, um, you know inability to stay connected or to stay focused and all these kind of things that play into it, and then eventually one thing or the other and then there was other substances got involved and so you know, I was, um, you know, all this kind of led to a point over from the time I started using meth or other substances through to the time I lost everything was only about four or five years you know like.
Speaker 2:I went um. I remember um one time we'd moved to the port this stage because I thought I've got to get away from my hometown to get, to get better to get away, and we moved to the port of all places, and anyone that's probably thought where you move to get, so yeah, for those people who don't know, like port adelaide, like it used to be quite a rough area.
Speaker 1:It's actually quite um up market. Now I'm assuming I haven't been there for years, but, um, I'm assuming someone who wants to probably back when you move there, who wanted to get clean, uh, probably not the best move. Not the best move.
Speaker 2:And the problem is you know? They always say you know you can't run away from problems because you're still there when you get there. And you know I just met up with the same crowd and, you know, just continued on my merry way and you know I'd and it's funny how you attract them.
Speaker 1:Do you know you don't have a sign on your back going hey look, I'm this and that. Because I remember it was sort of a similar type of situation for me when I moved to the UK. I had broken up with a long-term girlfriend. I was like you know, and even back when I was with her, there was a lot of drinking drugs, whatever right, and I was like I really want, and even back when I was with her, there was a lot of drinking drugs, whatever right, and I was like I really want to get away from all of this stuff. I remember getting over there and then I remember like it was probably, I know, six months into me being over there I'm like, oh my God, all I'm doing is attracting the same, exact same people, just in a different country, who I was trying to get away from back in the day, right, same people with a different accent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, some of them were Australian, but yeah, some of them were from other countries and all of that and you know. But the thing was, I did learn a lot about myself. I did go over there to try and refine myself in that, but I think that was one of the things which was an eye-opener. It was like, holy crap, man, you've moved all this way and you've you've found the exact same people that you're trying to get away from. Yeah, is that a problem? You know so. It's little things, people that you're trying to get away from. Yeah, is that a problem? You know? So it was little things like that. You know well, you've never really had a career. You really should build a career, you know. It was all of those types of things that I really learnt when I was over there. So there were some positives, but there was a lot of negativity there as well.
Speaker 2:I think you still build skills and you still build lived experience, whatever you do. You know, like I look at where I'm at now and there's some stuff that I picked up along the way in random kind of jobs, random concentrations that I find myself relying on all the time, or they're playing to the skills that that have me doing what I'm doing now. But it was like the catalyst to change for me was around exactly that. I remember, you know, my relationship at the time, which is my ex, was on again, off again. It was just, you know, toxic kind of situation. We had one kid and I had a stepson at the time and you know, I just got up one morning I looked in the mirror and I was like who the heck are you?
Speaker 2:You know, like you had every opportunity at your feet, you had all the advantages that you'd want as a person. How did you end up here? You smoke and crack out of a light bulb, you know, and you've lost everything you own. You know it's like what the heck is going on, how, how does someone that has every opportunity still end up this way, you know, and there's there was a lot of just naturally bad choices, but there was a a lot of messaging that I internalized. A lot of those poor coping strategies, like a emotional regulation was was not non-existent, um unable to maintain, um you know, normalcy or jobs. You know, like I was, I was lucky. I found patches through that time where I was able to find jobs that suited me.
Speaker 2:You know they were different every day, or you know I was my own boss, or you know these things that kind of supported that but I didn't take advantage of it because I was like the spare time I had I was off touring and drinking and taking drugs. So, yeah, that was the catalyst for me. I was just like you know, I don't want to be this person anymore, you know? Yeah, and trying to work out who you are without it is the next biggest challenge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just trying to think what the turning like for me. Like, because I don't think. Like say, for example, right, when people I don't know, let's say, you see someone and you're like, ah, well, society will see a certain type of person, right, and they're like, ah, you've got to get off this stuff, you're a loser or whatever, right, not saying that you and I go around doing that, but what society would would probably be doing right, and I don't think people actually understand how difficult it is to actually just.
Speaker 1:it's like giving up smoking right, not that I used to, not that I smoke, but I'm imagining that well, I've had to give up other stuff and that was the challenging part. You know, it's hard to see that the people you're around are the ones that why you can't give up, because what I would sort of find was that I'd be trying to give up on stuff and I'd be feeling like crap and my mate would be like, look, come around, mate. And then you know, give me a cone, or here, have a beer, you know where. What I needed was actually none of that, you know, and you can't see that and you think, oh, but these are good people, you know, and they are good people.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that they're bad people, but like they just weren't good for me and the direction I wanted to go into, I think the biggest turning point for me was definitely getting into business, because I remember going to a talk and I remember Mark Boris, the guy who was on the Celebrity Apprentice, right, he got up and talked, right he's like look, you know, if you want to build a business, it's hard work. If you want to go and party and take drugs and all that, this isn't for you. You've got to be focused. And I remember leaving that just feeling full of energy, like wow, that was amazing. I've really got to make some changes. Then I went back to my house and we're having a party that night and people are like smoking crack and doing like, um, you know, like the soda bowl, are they?
Speaker 1:like the icing things, where you get high off those things and people are doing all that crap and I'm just thinking I've just come from something so life-changing to this. And then the next week I moved out. I was like nah, and that was my turning point there. It sometimes just takes something like that and did you have your diagnosis at this stage.
Speaker 2:Did you know about this?
Speaker 1:No, no, well, I knew I was dyslexic, but I only found out I was ADHD like gee about two years ago or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So no, I had no idea and yeah, it made a hell of a lot of sense, I think I'm just trying to think like, because, like I think the hardest thing for me to kick was alcohol, or you know, like I don't know about you, but all the other drugs were heaps easy to get rid of, but the alcohol, that was the hard part because, like I don't know, it's everywhere and you can just get it whenever you want it's normalized, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like it's a problem, you know, but it's normalized, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like it's a problem, you know, but now I can actually have a drink which I really like. I can have a drink and not, you know, not be like bleh legless I know when to stop. You know I know when to stop and I love that. Yeah, you know, I love that. I'm able to control it. It doesn't control me, if that makes sense. But I've actually just had someone message through from Shane.
Speaker 1:I can't pronounce. I know Shane, shane's a legend. Yeah, shane, finn, I was thinking Flynn, but Finn, yeah, I was reminded of the words of motivational speaker Jim Robin just last week you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Yeah, there you go. Thank you very much, shane, for sharing that it is true.
Speaker 2:Like I wonder, it almost works the other way too, doesn't it? Like we were saying before, I was almost looking for some, like I was almost looking for people to justify my behaviour or what was going on for me, you know. So I reckon the same story. Like I always said, you know my young people, you know when you go to your parents you say, oh careful, you're looking after them, you're worried about the kids they hang around with. But sometimes it's more of a symptom than it is a cause too, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. I agree that what he was saying about community or those people you put around, like when I got sober and clean, I went cold turkey on everything smoking, drinking, meth, you know, dropped a lot. I had a couple of relapses. You know pretty much from the go. And I look back and I go well, what was different that time and what was it? And I now look back and I go. The things that I had around me at the time addressed some of those key areas around um and this is for me, um around some of those uh, negative messaging and the symptoms of my adhd or the or the vulnerabilities of ADHD. So it was treating, it was supporting those things or meeting those needs that I didn't even know I had. And it's not now, until post, understanding how I function and my differences, I go. Oh, that's why I thrived in those situations and that's why I'm most vulnerable in other situations, like it was, like it was a huge light bulb.
Speaker 1:It is. It's actually it's true, because I remember when I got diagnosed, I would be like I'd be in the shops and I'm like, oh, I'm so frustrated, so busy and I'm like, oh, now I know why I feel like this, you know. So maybe I shouldn't be going to the shop at this time or, you know, maybe you know I was able to deal, cope with it a lot better and it was sort of like, ah, now I know why I feel and don't get me wrong, I still have issues, but like I'm able to handle them a lot better. But in saying that, we might just move forward because, you know, I want to know a little bit about the work you're doing. So you know, you've done all that. You had this very interesting life. You know from what we've spoken so far, you know how do you get into what and, look, I think, from what you've described, you'd be the perfect person for this job. But what is your job? And you know what. What do you do?
Speaker 2:um, so we look after. So Mission Australia, um, most, I'm not sure some people may know who we are or not, but, um, we're a non-for-profit organization and we uh, you know our mission is to end homelessness and meet human need, and so everything we do is around that. In South Australia, where I'm from, like I said, I look after AOD and mental health or co-existing illness programs. So co-existing is like when there's two or more things going on, and so we run programs that are government funded so they're free to access for people where they come in and get support with what they need. And you know, my role now is to look after the contracts and the program managers and look for opportunities for us to meet, you know, look for gaps and needs, such as the one we're in, you know, for people in a neurodivergent, particularly ADHD. There's a lot of statistics around about how we are more likely or more vulnerable to having a substance misuse disorder. I've got a couple of pretty cool stats here that I wanted to share, yeah, share them away, mate.
Speaker 2:There's been a few studies around it. One most recently was done in New Zealand, so they're, you know, pretty comparable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 2:So what have we got here? Substance use disorder. So one in five individuals with a substance use disorder so that's a diagnosed substance use disorder have ADHD. So that's one in five, which is astronomical. That's pretty high, yeah, twice as likely than those that are neurotypical. So 50% is more likely, twice as likely, 200% more likely. 45% of illicitant users have adhd um, but only a fraction of them are formally diagnosed, which I thought was another number that was what was that again? Sorry, what was the 45% of illicit stimulant users.
Speaker 1:So um stimulants wow, that is quite high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have ADHD, but only a fraction are diagnosed, so that could be higher. Yeah, it could be. People with ASD are less likely to use substances, but if they do, they face higher risks, so there's more detrimental effects to people with autism or ASD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:And then there's some other stuff around.
Speaker 1:Where did you get these stats from?
Speaker 2:out of curiosity, Like things come across my desk all the time because I'm involved in this, is part of my work, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and especially now.
Speaker 2:You know, like I'm a bit of a rag, a bull with a. What is it? Bull to a red rag, whatever it is. So when it's something like that man.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah. Mixed metaphors I'm the mixed metaphors.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so like lived experience, like one of my other roles is I'm on the board for LELAN, which is a lived experience leadership and advocacy network, so that's the peak body in South Australia for peer work and lived experience.
Speaker 2:So I'm involved in a lot of conversations like this and you know, at my level as an area manager, I get invited to a lot of these things and a lot of these papers come across my desk and so we're, you know, with the Mental Health Coalition in South Australia and all these other things. So these things come across quite often, and there was also another one that talked about people with ADHD. Just around general mental health and suicidal ideation and suicidal behaviour are five times more likely, which is just astronomical, and so I think this is just a huge unmet need that needs to be addressed. The other thing that's also interesting was that came out of the New Zealand study that 44% of adults with ADHD, with a substance use disorder, after diagnosis and treatment of their ADHD, had improvements in their AOD use. So without even addressing their Aod use, just addressing the adhd or their neurodivergence 44 showed an improvement, which I think yeah, that is interesting.
Speaker 1:That is interesting because I do believe that like I still struggle with depression and anxiety, but, like now that I'm aware of a lot of the triggers, you could probably say, yeah, I'm seeing an improvement. Like I said, I still struggle with a lot of things, but I am a little bit better just because I'm able to deal with that. But you know what? It's something interesting, especially what you were talking about there, right? Yeah, you know, unfortunately I've lost a fair few friends to like suicide and stuff like that. And when you're in, you know from what I've found, especially when you're in the scenes that we've been in, it is quite common and I often think about a lot of my friends who have, you know, left us, um, I wonder if they were undiagnosed something. Yeah, you know, just when I look back at it now and I see a lot of um this, maybe the symptoms were there, but we just had no idea, you know I did not realize.
Speaker 2:Um, it wasn't. Adults weren't being diagnosed with adhd until the early 2000s in in australia, so it wasn't a thing that they thought was present or they were. They were looking to assess. And in england, in the uk, and it wasn't until 2008 that they started assessing for adults for ADHD, which is generations of people that have gone unsupported. Um, yeah, and who knows? Who knows what the effects are? Look, I'm not. I can't look at my life and blame everything on my on an undiagnosed, unsupported neurodivergence.
Speaker 2:I know that would be ridiculous and you know it would be me trying to, but I look at some of the things that affected me so deeply and the things I've tried to cover up. You know, maybe, who knows, maybe if I was supported earlier, there might have been a better chance that I wouldn't have made those same decisions, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think it's like, I think it's almost like we always look at. Everyone probably looks at going oh man, I would have done so many things differently. But, yeah, and that's the thing, Like I often think to myself, like back when I was, like in school, and that I'm like imagine if I had like a mentor or something like that. I just don't know if, like I, would have gravitated to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I might have been like no, I don't need this crap.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know, you know, I just don't know and like it's. I think, when I look at kids these days, if I was to go, okay, go and do a talk to a school or whatever and go, you need to get a mentor and stuff like that. Kids are kids and they're going to do whatever they want.
Speaker 2:Who's this old guy? Why is he telling me he doesn't know?
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, totally, totally. And that's where it's sort of like it's so hard to be able to see it through a young person's lens, because yeah, I was that, but I'm sure there was probably people when I was that age saying the exact same thing and I was probably going ah, piss off. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think part of what you're saying there is the neurodifferences or the differences people have. So we don't know what the you know. The only way we can know about what's going on for young persons is having them tell us. So we can't like that's. I think the important of lived experience, the important of client voice in shaping the services that we have and you know we have services I look after services that are supporting people and their families from 10 up. So you know you've got 10-year-olds coming into your service with their families. We have, you know, family workers. We have psychotherapists, aod workers, peer workers, all these things to build around them, because they're things that we've heard help and they're what are being fed back by the people that are accessing the program. We have quite a large client advisory group. You know, not just us but in every state, and currently Mission is setting up a national advisory group.
Speaker 2:So I think what you're saying is just right. It's that whole kind of for want of a better term decolonising of waywardy service delivery for people Like you can't just go to people and say this is what the professionals say and this is what you need, because no one like everyone's different and everyone has different requirements. What they need is a place. You know we run one-on-one supports and group supports because people need that kind of community to normalise what's going on for them.
Speaker 2:Leland runs a series of groups called Alt2Sue Alternatives to Suicide, for People at Its Resume of Distress and it's a totally peer-led group that people access anonymously, without you know worry that they're going to have you know, emergency services called, but you know, and their whole thing is about the VCVC model, which is like validation, curiosity, vulnerability and community, you know, and so they open up spaces where they can hear from people, they can be validated for what they're feeling. They're not made to feel that there's something, you know, that there's something wrong with their identity because they're going. Actually, I feel like this is my only solution at the moment, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're going. Actually, I feel like this is my only solution at the moment. Yeah, and I will say like for me, getting to that point of being able to talk about stuff was incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1:I don't know why, but it was sort of I don't know if it was like a pride thing or whatever. But once you know, I'm very open about it. Now I'm very open about a lot of other things, but it did take me a while to get there. You know, as a teenager I probably would never have spoken about that stuff because, like, I don't know I just wasn't around the right people.
Speaker 1:If I had opened up about certain stuff to certain people back when I was younger, it could have been more like I think I did. But people would go look, I'll make you feel better here. Have a bong or you know, take this or have a beer you know, and you're thinking at the time yeah, this is great, but you don't realise that that's the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that just you know. In my case, those solutions were just causing more problems in the end, you know.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally. But you know what? Moving on from that, what challenges did you face in discovering healthy coping strategies? I think that flows well into what we're sort of talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my challenges, sort of talking about yeah, um, my challenge. So I think what we spoke about was was a lot. What we're saying, like I did, it was never modeled for me, you know. So, um, it was about it. Um, yeah, it was never modeled for me.
Speaker 2:So it's stuff you had to work out yourself, and people don't get to our age with these things by accident. So you learn, you know what is. It need breeds creativity. You know you create these kind of coping strategies to get you through, and some are healthy and some aren't. So there's a bit of trial and error there.
Speaker 2:But for some of us the lure or the quick fix of an unhealthy coping strategy is too hard to avoid. You know, that's what I'd say for me. And then it's the embarrassment and the shame that comes with it. You know would just keep doing that. And now I'm sober you know I'm not. These things are still there that I need to work through, like my coping strategies that keep me healthy when I was a frontline worker and working with people that you know you're exposed to vicarious trauma and all these kind of things that are happening all the time. I know, when I'm not doing well, you know, for me. I'll just take on more and more stuff. You know I'm a huge people pleaser. I have you know RSD is like was it sensory dysphoria?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's it. It's driven most of my life, you know. So it was. I need to be careful of those things and I think the last few years, even before understanding my ADHD, I was better aware of them and I'd naturally learnt. You know, like I said, you get to this age not by accident, so, and I've become successful in my position because I'd already established these things.
Speaker 1:So now, with my understanding of my divergence, it's like, oh, that's why that's helpful, you know, which might have been a few shortcuts before, but at least I know the strategies that I've got in place work for me, you know, and so and can you actually see, you know, like you know, and so, and can you actually see, you know, like you know, you were talking about how relationships were, um, a bit of an issue for you back in the day and all of that and and look, I, you know, I was the same.
Speaker 1:And I look at some of the people I was in relationships with and like we were just fueling that fire. Do you know what I mean? Like there'd be times where I'm just trying to, let's say, like sometimes with my adhd, I just need to chill and you know, I just can't be forced to, you know, and then someone would be like, no, we've got to do this now. And you know, just trying to, having to work against that was the problem within itself. And I look back at it now and I'm like, yes, I, that was the issue right there.
Speaker 1:Like do you look at that like back in your past, especially relationships and all that, and you're like, oh my god, I can see how we really didn't work well together. Or you may even go. I think that person might have been ADHD themselves.
Speaker 2:My partner says I was diagnosing other people, her included, which he's not super happy about.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny you say that because, like I don't know, there's been a lot of time for myself, especially working in this space. I'm able to go I'm pretty sure that person's this, I'm pretty sure that person's that, and before you know it, they've gotten the diagnosis and they are, and I'm like told you, it's like we've got a radar.
Speaker 2:You know, um, yeah, I was gonna say um, one of the things that a couple of things that really kind of were eye-opens for me in relationship, like there was one and this happened more than one relationship like when I was, um, I get that you go out and you're so supportive and you've got so much grace and so caring for other people. You get home and you've got nothing left for me. You know, and I'm like, and I like I railed against that all the time when it comes up, that many times you've got to go. Maybe there's some truth to that. And now I know that it's because I spent my time masking and you know it's hard work to engage with people. I'm a people person, but it's still hard work. I get home after work.
Speaker 1:We're staffed.
Speaker 2:And so then, to be a parent, a husband or a partner or you know, sometimes you know I really need now, I'm aware of it, I go, okay, I can feel that and I can be aware of it. And the kids too, like my oldest, you know, the only way I found it, only way I pursued this was and I know from listening now that was other people's story too was my oldest is both gender and neurodiverse, and so it was through getting attending support with them that I actually went, oh, hold on. And it was pointed to me. He said have you ever considered that this might be? Oh, okay, and so that journey with them, and now with my second youngest, is also pursuing some sort of assessment.
Speaker 2:So it's like, oh, okay, I'm really, really aware of that. Uh, that it's that, that's um, that's what it is, you know. And my oldest was going even like a partner with a relationship, like my kids are going hey, dad, we come in after you come home from work and I want to tell you something I'm really excited about, and it's like you don't care, it's like you're not interested or you zone out, or I'll be halfway through a conversation and I'll start thinking about something else.
Speaker 2:And you know a work thing, or you? Know, Maintaining conversation is one of my biggest challenges.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. Well, it's so funny, like my wife will say to me sometimes she'll be like, well, I'll, I'll, you'll be sitting there, but you're, you're, it's like you're off in another planet and it's like but for me it's, and like probably to her is probably thinking I'm, she's probably thinking I don't care, or whatever. Yeah, but the thing is I do care. It's just I'm focusing on something else right at that point of time and I'm like to tell you the truth, it's not that I'm ignoring. It's like my brain is going a million miles an hour about something. It could be business, it could be something that I'm working on and that's consuming my mind at that point of time.
Speaker 1:that it's so hard to almost break away from that and then be like, okay, you've got my attention, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I've got that and also like for part of it, sometimes my brain will go.
Speaker 2:she'll go honey, or talk or someone will call dad and I'll go yeah, and for my brain it goes okay, you've done that task now and it'll switch over to something else. I said yes, but I didn't listen to anything else they said. And then you know, like I said to you, both of them, both those incidents, was it's like you don't care, or it's like you're not interested, or you don't value us. It's like when you. That couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2:Like the people I love so deeply, and so when they say that, then the RSD kicks in and I just feel like horrible and terrible and it's almost like you think, but it's not that at all Like it's hard to explain, almost it's like, but I really do care, and sometimes that's really hard to sort of explain within itself, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is true, and I think the benefit of God, or the upside of God, is the kids have their own kind of diversities going on as well, and my partner works in mental health as well, so there's understanding there, but it still doesn't mean it's not hard for them. The people you live with and the love you to go, because they just want. They've got their own needs and they want something from you, and it's you know yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:But how do you reckon so? How does neurodivergence affect developing coping mechanisms? Do you reckon so? You know, do I don't know? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:So as in when you're Well the thing is the way and I'll word it a little bit differently. So you know, maybe it could be like because, where we get so sidetracked with things, and actually I'll give you an example. So I remember when I first got into business, right, I was like, man, I want to make it big. You know, I've got to make this happen, right. And I was like, yeah, my ADHD, mind, I'm going to be brilliant, hyper-focused, hyper-focused to the max, right, yeah, and I was that hyper-focused that I was working from like 7 o'clock in the morning to like 3 o'clock in the morning the next morning having a short sleep, having stopped to eat, had to go to the 24-hour shop down the road to get something to eat.
Speaker 1:Come home, have a bit of sleep, get up, do that. For even on the weekend I was like, yep, I've got this, I'm a machine, you know. And then boom, I just I broke, I had a breakdown, and you know I've had that happen twice now for similar types of things, and it's like holy crap, you know I I can now see that, but it took that to happen for me to go. Oh my god, now I know you know what I'm going to. Uh, sit on the couch and watch episode after episode of whatever show I'm watching, and that's good, you know where, back in the day I would have been like man, I'm a lazy slob, I should be working on my business, but I'm here watching TV. But for me that's great, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly right and that's my experience too. I'll sit here in the office and I'll just work until you know. I'll sit, um, I'll sit here and and or in the office and I'll just work until you know. I have to set myself reminders on the phone eat, drink, you know.
Speaker 1:Drink some water you know, actually that reminds me I'd have some water.
Speaker 2:Thanks for the reminder, mate um, yeah, I, I think, um, yeah, I think all those kind of things that, yeah, that happen to you. That hyperfocus is a big one for me too, like I just get stuck in the zone and I'll take on. For me it was multiple times in my life I've been verging on burnout because I feel, like I said before, I just take more and more things on because I just like I feel like I need to prove myself. I feel like I need to be valued. You know, avoid the rejection, be accepted, fear, you know, even in workplace, like, am I doing enough, am I? You know? You get a bit of imposter syndrome thrown in on top. You go crap. Why have they given me the keys to this place? Why, you know.
Speaker 1:Why do I deserve this yeah?
Speaker 2:Or you feel really responsible, like, for you know dozens of employees that are responsible, like if this contract falls over, you know their livelihood's at stake, you know. So you have all this, so you go, man, I've got a zone in here and you know I can. It doesn't take me too much. I can procrastinate a little bit normally on things other than work, and they'll be the things that I normally enjoy that fill my cup, you know, like playing guitar. Or you know work like, and they're the and they'll be the things that I normally enjoy, that film a cup, you know, like, um, playing guitar, or you know other things that I enjoy doing. They're the things I'll procrastinate because I've just burnt myself out in trying to trying to meet all the needs. So I think, uh, trying to meet other people's needs and take other things. I think that's what affects my, or did affect my, coping mechanisms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:And I don't think I'm not 100% on top of it, but I'm better than I was and I engage in you know. I told you before I had an EAP appointment today because I just need to check in, have someone check in on me every now and again and just say you know, how are you going, what are you doing and those things are you? It's helpful. Eh yeah, I'm like my workplace. I'm very thankful for they value lived experience, they value their workers and so these things are available to us all the time. So it's very grateful for it. So I use it, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I tell all my staff use it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know I've had to use them in the past and even like caught, like certain, especially through the pandemic and stuff like that, you know just being able because, like my wife, she wasn't at home the whole time because she was busy, like on the front line pretty much doing all the COVID testing.
Speaker 1:So she was never home, but I was home on my own the whole time, in my head, you know. So, being able to just speak to people who I didn't even know, it does help, you know.
Speaker 1:So I'm definitely really mindful of like that type of stuff. But, you know, moving on and I am mindful of the time and awesome podcast, by the way, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this because I I think it's so relevant, you know, but what tips do you have for building functional routines to support mental health, and I think what we just spoke about in regards to speaking to people is one of them. You know, what else would you recommend?
Speaker 2:I think community is a big one. I think you've got to have a space. You know, like we're here having a chat for a purpose for your podcast, but look, I'm going to leave this and go away with. You know, having to talk this through again with someone, having hearing your experiences, and I find that really helpful. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's like it's, and I guess that's the next point is like find out what is important to you.
Speaker 2:Find out I have to live my whole life, defined by other things, whether it's trying to please other people, trying to fit in.
Speaker 2:Defined by other things, whether it's trying to please other people trying to fit in, trying to be loved, accepted, being affected by drugs and alcohol, all these kind of other things that have gone on. At one stage I was getting some help and the person said so what do you want? Like you've sat here for the last hour and I've heard about your family, I've heard about your partners, I've heard about this. But what's important to you and I'm like I couldn't do it, like it led to some huge the ability to self-reflect is way underrated. I reckon Like it's something I try and do with our staff is like encourage people to self-reflect and take self-responsibility, and that's why another thing I think groups are really helpful for, because people can share that kind of kind of stuff but being able to define what your best life looks like and, I think, understanding that your life is not a there's no end goal, that everything's a process. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like it's a work in progress type of thing? Yeah, it's true, it's always changing. It never goes the way you sort of plan. You know what's a plan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what's a plan. Yeah, yeah, it's a plan. And I heard someone the other day say something and I went I really like that. And it says the whole recovery, the whole journey in life is. And she said, fall in love with the process of being the best version of yourself. And I thought, you know that might be hoopla to anyone else, but for me it kind of jumped in because I'm very goal-orientated most of the time and so being present, being able to sit with the now and the process of, you know, even going like exercise, oh, I can't wait till I've been able to swim extra laps or can't wait till I've lost 10 kilos, but it's being able to go. Actually it's that's so important.
Speaker 2:What's important is I turned up today and I'm doing the best I can today and I think that can flow through to your work, your relationships, anything just like okay, it's a process, like I don't have to be anything other than what I am today.
Speaker 1:So interesting. So do you work from home? A?
Speaker 2:lot. Yeah, bits and pieces, like I'm here, they're everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I work from home. Like I now work from home more than I've ever worked from home ever. Do you know what I mean? And for me, I'm a people person, so I really enjoyed being in the office and talking to people or whatever, like that I'd get more done at home than what I would at the office because I was probably talking.
Speaker 1:But you know, I've noticed how impactful working at home has been, um, on my mental health and maybe in a negative way, um, because, like I don't have those people that I can talk to.
Speaker 1:So, for example, when you and I had a chat the other day, that was great because it sort of was like, okay, I've got to talk with Tuck. You know, and you know I'm sort of finding other coping strategies to sort of deal with that now. Coping strategies to sort of deal with that now, um, but, um, it's, it's definitely been a hard road, but you know, I think this is another thing too. This is the way of work these days. A lot of people are working from home. So you know you're talking about routine and you know, just fronting up to the pool to go for a swim, you know, for me it might be making sure I do have a shower before, like I could sit in my pyjamas all day if I really wanted to, but still staying in that routine of getting up, having the shower you know having breakfast, yep, sitting down, having a break, you know your lunch because it's so easy to just get stuck here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my partner's like super organized, so she's, you know she's the other end of the spectrum, so she keeps me at not the spectrum, so to speak yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, the other end, she, uh, she's vigilant and stuff, so the bed has to be made all the time. So, like like when we first got together, it's like man, this is a bit of a drag you know, but now it's like oh, you know, I don't.
Speaker 2:I feel like getting up and making the bed is something I do every day, because it's kind of like um, it's like okay, now it's moving on to the next stage. You know, it's like and I think all those kind of little things help with that yeah, yeah, yeah it is.
Speaker 1:And you know, for me it's like even doing the shopping on friday um, you know, picking up the groceries, you know getting all that stuff, um, you know paying all the bills, like in regards I don't mean like I pay all the bills, but like actually paying them, not going. You know, those are little chores for me, type of thing, and I think that's what keeps me on track. It's sort of funny, like I'm very good with organising and all that. Like, for example, our wedding. I organised everything and everyone's like what. So your wife did nothing? I'm like she really isn't good with that.
Speaker 1:I was the one who organized it all um and it's just interesting how it works, but uh, hey tuck, we're actually towards the end of the end of the podcast here. Man, awesome chat, that went really fast. But you know, if people want to connect with you and find out a little bit more of your work, where can they go to check you out, mate?
Speaker 2:So if you're interested in Mission Australia and the programs we do, you can go to the Mission Australia website, which is missionaustraliaorgau, so on there you'll find my service and you can look at your state and see what's available for you there. And then for LELN, which is the Lived Experience Leadership and Advocacy Network, that's LELNorg what was it au LELNorgau? And then also, I don't have, I try to stay off socials because otherwise I'll doomsday scroll, so I'm not on socials a lot. But my email that I've got that anyone's happy to email, is tuck T-U-C-K 5015 at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:So happy to have a chat with you. Hopefully you don't get a whole bunch of spam emails now if you put that out to our community. But all good mate hey um, thank you thank you. So, yeah, be quiet please. Um, you know he's trying to do good stuff here. Um, hey, tuck, thank you so much for giving us the time to chat with me today. I really appreciate it it's.
Speaker 1:It's so good to just sit down with someone who you know has lived a similar experience to myself. So, look, thank you so much for sharing that and, yes, please, anyone. If you want to connect with Tuck, please feel free to email him. All of that. We really appreciate your time, mate.
Speaker 2:No worries, it's been really good and thanks to the podcast you know that's how we connected was? I stumbled across your podcast and I found some of the other interviews really, really helpful, just about community.
Speaker 1:Right? Yeah, it is, Sure is my friend. It is Awesome. So those of you who haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. My name's Will and this is NeuroDivergent Mates. Till next time, you.