Making Deeper Connections Without Alcohol

In today's episode, Steph and Kevin talk about why we believe that alcohol brings us closer to other people and strategies for deepening connections with friends and family when we're cutting back or quitting drinking.

The Reframeable podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the #1 app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast@reframeapp.com or, if you're on the Reframe app, give it a shake and let us know what you want to hear.

Transcript

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S2E6: Deepening Connections Without Alcohol

​[00:00:00]

Kevin: Welcome everyone to another episode of the Reframeable podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. 

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to help you reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the ReFrame 

Steph: app. And I'm Steph Prangley. I'm a nutritional therapy practitioner. I have a virtual private practice called the Sober Rebellion. And I'm also a recovery coach here at ReFrame. So let's get started, Kev.

What's new with you? How's it going? [00:01:00]

Kevin: What's new with me? Uh, it's going well. Um, It's funny, I was thinking about this and my daughter just came home last night, uh, from a little first date, and she told me that they were talking and they were talking about like, Oh, what are your parents do?

What are your parents do? And I'm like, well, what did you say? Uh, she's like, she's like, I don't know. He works for, he works for an app. Oh, she said he's a drinking coach. Um, I'm like, what else did you say? And she told me and it to him. But I was like, drinking coach makes me sound like I help people learn how to drink.

I'm like, I'm like, okay. So I gave her like two lines of what to say, um, in the future, which she was like, do you think I'm going to remember that? I'm like, no, I don't. But whatever. Um. It was just funny. Like, okay. I was like, how did you answer that question? Because it's funny because I, I didn't know how to answer that question for the longest time.

Like I was like, okay, what, what do I do? Like [00:02:00] it was, it was easier before to say, what do you do? Oh, I'm an accountant. I mean that, that whole tick tock thing of like nobody.

Um, because everybody launches into like their own personal taxes, I'm like, I have to stop them immediately. And I'm like, I don't do that. I have no idea how to help you. So it's not a, it's not surprising that she didn't know necessarily how to answer it when I didn't know myself for a long time.

So 

Steph: that's so cute though. 

Kevin: What about you? What have you been up to? What's 

Steph: new with me? Um. So I guess, I mean, this isn't really topical because I'll be back by then, but, um, I am looking forward to going to sober in the city. Uh, I will be going up to Portland, Maine. Um, we're recording this on August 26th.

So I think I'll be back from sober in the city by the time this episode comes out, but that's okay. Um, [00:03:00] I'm. Like half excited for it and half it's really far outside of what I like doing. Um, I, I look forward to meeting a lot of these people in person, but I'm not really a huge fan of socializing in bigger groups with a bunch of people that.

Um, so it's just, and honestly, I'm still preparing for it as if, cause it's a sober first for me, like it, I would consider it fun, but like, it's a networking type of event. Um, and even though it's a sober activity, I'm still like, I'm still doing that. Like I have travel days that I have to deal with. What if a flight's delayed?

Um, I'm not really, I'm not nervous about it, but it's like, I just think it's better to be overprepared in situations like this. And this is a perfect example of a time when I would [00:04:00] overdrink to kind of suppress the anxiety I have meeting a bunch of new faces at once. Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm like mentally preparing for it.

I have a prevention plan in place, including permission to leave whenever I want. Like I don't need to do all of the activities. It's all like the same stuff that I put into place early on in sobriety. I think it's just, um, it's important to highlight that. I mean, I don't know if this ever goes away, depending on how much time you have, I have like, I don't know, 15, 16 months of being alcohol free at this point, and I've traveled before and whatever, but I don't know, it's important to me to have a prevention plan, it's, it doesn't take more than 10 minutes for me to write it out, and I do physically write it out.

Um, but I don't know. I just kind of want to highlight that it's still something that it's not like drinking comes to mind, but I know as soon as I get too confident with it. It [00:05:00] has a chance to, to slip in and this would be like a higher risk scenario for me with that. Yeah. Even though it's Sober in the city.

Kevin: Yeah. I understand that. But I mean, I just think back to, I'm assuming you went to actuarial conferences. I went to tax conferences and it was, I know how I did all those. Like, you know, I know that how I showed up and drinking was a big part of it. And drinking was a big part of it, probably because of social anxiety for me and talking with people.

Um, and that takes time to, you know, again, we, we get uncomfortable with it and you just have to do it without to get more comfortable, but that doesn't help you when you're, you know, whenever, whenever there's still that, for me, it doesn't, it doesn't go away. Like if I was going there, yeah, like travel wouldn't be bad for me, but.

You know, still I'd be sitting in my hotel room getting ready to go down to whatever the first event is and just be nervous about like, okay, walking into a [00:06:00] room full of people. I mean, that doesn't go away for me. 

Steph: What do I do with my arms? That's my thing. Where do they go when I talk to people? 

Kevin: Yeah. Um, yeah, because I always had that thing in my hand.

Um, So 

Steph: that's a good point. Cause I, yeah, I haven't done something like this. You're absolutely right about the actuarial conferences. I used to get so hammered to get through, like, to go like handle them because it's. I mean, I worked from home, even as an actuary, I am used to my spreadsheets and my solitude.

And then to sit in these meetings all day and then you like network and socialize afterwards. It's like people like me don't have a chance to do that in a healthy way. Like I, if I were to do that again, I'd have to really prepare and change a bunch of stuff up. And I don't know, I guess I feel validated in you saying that, like comparing this.

It's just something like that because it's true. It is. It's [00:07:00] similar. It's like a, you know, a full day of activities and socializing and doing stuff like that. And then there's stuff in the evenings too. It's just a long day for me. 

Kevin: Yeah. I mean, it drains your battery. So planning for that is important regardless of there's, you know, the chance of alcohol or if it's a sober event or something like that.

So 

Steph: yeah. And it's one of those situations too. Like I. I booked my own room, even though it's like way more expensive than trying to find a roommate because I know I'm going to want my solitude. But on the other hand of that, it's like, I totally could just like have the option of drinking and no one would know but myself, but you know it's not a high risk scenario for me.

But, that's something that could go through other people's minds too, where it's trying to figure out what's best for you and your unique individuality with it. 

Kevin: That's what I was just going to say, like, you know, you're, but you did, you're doing the prevention plan, right? You're writing all that out and you're weighing the cost [00:08:00] benefit analysis of like having your own room versus not, and yeah, what flight you take and what time of day and.

just all that stuff, knowing what happens when there's a delay, uh, you know, and things like that. So planning for those things and weighing that ahead of time, like, you know, know thyself, right? Um, where are you most vulnerable? And just putting a big plan around that time. 

Steph: Yeah. Yeah.

So that's, I mean, I'm really excited and I can't wait. 

All right. You ready for Shop Talk? 

Kevin: Absolutely. 

Steph: All right. Shop Talk. In this segment, we'll talk about a recovery related topic that's on our mind and yours.

We hope to cover the topic from all angles and land somewhere actionable and helpful. And we'll do our best to be concise here. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, you can send an email to podcast at reframe app. com. Or if you're on the Reframe app, give it a [00:09:00] shake and just let us know what you're thinking and what you want us to cover.

And we would be happy to keep your identity confidential if you prefer. So today we're chatting about how to deepen our connections with others when we're not drinking alcohol. Uh, I know I've heard from clients and people in the community, um, how part of what's so scary about cutting back on alcohol or giving up alcohol is the feeling of getting these like deep, complicated, Um, conversations around really important things or things that we, like, we just feel like we're connecting on a deeper level when we're drinking and drinking, at least for me, drinking heavily, I used to believe that that would bring out my most creative self, um, I thought that helped me connect with what was really going on, like, deep in my, like, deep in my [00:10:00] soul. So we're just gonna, we're gonna chat about deepening connections when we're not drinking alcohol or when you're cutting back and, um. I don't know. I want to start with, like, why do we believe that alcohol brings us closer to our loved ones?

Is this a concept that we're sold, or is there any truth to it? What do you think, Kevin? 

Kevin: I would say, I don't know that we're sold it. I think it's in Grained in us. It's ingrained in our society, in our cultures, in our activities that, you know, we believe it deepens connections because alcohol is ubiquitous.

It's everywhere and it's at every single event. Right? So I think because of that, it kind of almost is a, it's almost seen as, [00:11:00] I'm not connecting with this person because I'm, sitting there talking with them, but alcohol is there. Right? So it's like, oh, well, we had a deeper connection because alcohol was there when no we might not had a connection because we were talking AND alcohol was there.

It's not because alcohol was there. Um, I don't know that that's because it's at every social gathering. Right? I always say from, weddings and funerals to one year old birthday parties to soccer games to, I mean, it's just, it just shows up everywhere. And it, because of that, because it is everywhere, I think that's why people make that connection that I can't have fun without it because every time I had fun, it was there.

I can't, I can't have a connection without it because every time I had a connection, it was there. Um, I don't know. That's kind of how I see it. And I, I don't see it as. Thanks. You know, I, I think looking at it differently, it's remove, removing inhibitions, isn't deepening connections, right? You [00:12:00] know, just because we remove inhibitions and we talk more or more open and say the things that we wouldn't say otherwise, doesn't mean that a, we're going to remember what we said or the other person said, and, and doesn't mean that that's a deeper connection.

I don't know what your thoughts on that. 

Steph: Yeah. I mean, that's almost exactly what I was going to say. Like it feels like our emotions are more accessible when we're drinking because it is like lowering that inhibition, like you said, but, um, but like, that's different. That is different than having a deeper connection, even though it feels it feels that way because you do like your emotions are kind of right there on your sleeve and are really accessible.

But sometimes those aren't even really your emotions or even really your thoughts. I think back to like times when I've had brownouts or blackouts or something like that, where. My memory of the [00:13:00] night is having a blast and having these really great deep conversations. And then later having someone tell me like, what the hell were you talking about when you were talking about, like, whatever, um, probably like Marsha Clark and the OJ Simpson trial again.

Cause that always seems to pop up in my life. Um, but. You know, I think while we're like, while we're in the moment using whatever substance we're using, especially when we're using it, like, to an excessive amount is what I'm talking about. I don't think that you know, I don't like it takes a lot to get into the state of mind that I'm talking about from my personal experience.

Um, but that isn't even like coherent stuff that I was talking like, it's just how I remember it because. I was impaired, you know, 

Kevin: yeah, and not to say that I didn't have fun while I was drinking, right. I didn't connect with people while I was drinking. I did but I'm not saying [00:14:00] that, Oh, all my time with alcohol was not fun and all that. Like, no, I had fun, but you know, could I have done some of that without it?

Yes. Could I have done some of that without it? No, not all of it. If I think back at some things like, right, I mean, so there are things that, you know, I did because of those lowered inhibitions that, you know, that we can that I laugh at or whatever. But it's as far as that deepening connection. Um.

I think it comes down to kind of like you were saying about going on that trip. Right. I mean, there's a certain comfort level, uh, that we wanted to get to and with social interactions and connecting with somebody, whether it's like a if you're going on a first date or something like that.

Right. I mean, You're anxious and alcohol has that ability to lower anxiety in the beginning there, right? Um, it just depends on when it goes too far and that if you have too much, that's going to obviously flip it to the other end of [00:15:00] the spectrum there. But recognizing that

things are uncomfortable, right? Just in general, like, and that's not a bad thing, but we have to give it. I think if we give it just a little bit of time, like, to get in and not want to erase that discomfort in the beginning right away. By doing that, like we can learn how to get into these situations and be more comfortable around other people or just recognize, you know what, I'm going to be uncomfortable for 20 minutes and that's okay.

There's nothing wrong with that. But once you get talking, once you start talking with people, once you start doing things, the comfort comes because you're into the situation then, and every situation is different, but I think there's nothing wrong with being a little uncomfortable too, but we tell ourselves that we don't want that or we can't do that.

And I mean, everybody's different in that regard as well. I'm not going on many first dates. Um, it's been, it's been 20 some years since I did that. Um, but. You know, it's just how [00:16:00] can you get through that? And like I said, my daughter just did that last night, right? She wasn't drinking. Um, and you know, so yeah, it was weird.

It was uncomfortable, but they start talking and then you get through it. Uh, you know, but we learned that. We use alcohol and that helps us. And then we feel like we can't do it without it. 

Steph: Yeah. It does feel weird at first, even if you're in a situation that you're completely comfortable with, like the first few times you do something, no matter how comfortable you are with it or with the people around you, it is going to feel weird because it does feel like something's missing because something is when it's built into your witching hour or your date nights or

you know, when you're cooking dinner after work or something like that, it's like your body is just used to that. And the body likes homeostasis, no matter if the change you're making is health promoting or not. Like it doesn't, that's why habit change is so hard. That's why we [00:17:00] focus so much on that incremental 1 percent improvement, because our body just doesn't like to be thrown into this change even when we know that reducing or giving up alcohol is best for our body and like our body just isn't going to like that change.

So, and, it's important to acknowledge that, yeah, alcohol is effective at reducing that anxiety. It's just you know, people that we're attracting the reframe and attracting this podcast, we realized that we're, you know, we're taking it to a level that we're not comfortable with and, um, and we're not like stopping when we want to be stopping and stuff like that.

And, Kevin and I both don't drink at all. And. Yeah. I think what we're getting at here is just like, it's also okay to feel awkward and move through those things, but it gets, it gets better. 

Kevin: And you find tools all the way. Right. That, you know, yeah, that first drink [00:18:00] might help, but, uh, people are going to roll their eyes at this, but like, you know, so does, so does taking a couple deep breaths in the car ahead of time and all that, right.

It's different, but the more you do, the more you do things that help relieve anxiety, uh, and pressure around that. I mean, it's practicing those things, you're setting up the situation as best you can. Um, and, and kind of going through it ahead of time, visualizing it and looking at, okay, well, where are we going?

What are we doing? Uh, who's gonna be there? Is there a menu? Let me go look at the menu ahead of time and, and see what I can order and just come kind of walking through it ahead of time, visualizing that can also be something that can help, uh, get through that. But I feel like I'm jumping ahead to , you know, talking about, uh, ideas for strategies and that, but, you know, it's just, it's just getting through that, I think, um, initial discomfort, because if alcohol's always been there, And [00:19:00] you are been there in, in a certain way and you're trying to show up with it in a different way, whether that's like, Hey I'm sticking to a different target of drinks, or I'm not drinking at all.

Like, you know, recognizing that it is going to be, um, weird at first and almost treating it like a, um, I don't know. I don't want to say game, but like a test run or, you know, start, yeah. I mean. 

Steph: Well, it speaks to just approaching these situations or cravings or triggers with curiosity instead of just trying to butt heads with it and be like, Ooh, you shouldn't be here trigger.

Like, where did you come from? Why are you here? Whatever. Yeah. You know, kind of saying like, okay, why, why are you here? But in a different tone of voice, right? Like, why am I feeling this anxiety right now or whatever? And I'll give an example. Just last night someone in our neighborhood had someone who's running for mayor, um, over to their house and they invited the neighborhood to get to [00:20:00] know this, like, mayoral candidate and like our incumbents been mayor forever.

So it's a big, it's a big deal for this person, that would have been a situation that I would have agreed to go to, I would agree to go to, but would have pre drank for. Because I wouldn't have wanted to drink too much while I was there, but it's a bunch of neighbors and it's like this political person and then I get really excited about local politics and wouldn't want to feel nervous with someone like that.

And I just took a nap beforehand and made sure I ate, even though I knew they were going to have food there. Like, I know, like, hungry, tired are my biggest triggers. So it's like. I know this isn't about Deepening Connections at all, but it is about, um, like showing up and, and feeling like completely fully present and with a clear head to approach a situation that I may have drank in in the past.

Kevin: I mean, I think, I mean, Deepening Connections is, I mean, we have to... Be [00:21:00] comfortable to be with other people, right? To deepen a connection in the first place. So, I mean, I think that is, right on track with this thought because we're not going to deepen a connection if we're like, nope, I'm so I can't do this without alcohol, so I'm not going to go or so then you're not going to deepen a connection at all.

Um. So I think that is good to recognize like, you know what I've been to enough get togethers, whether it's at someone's house or somewhere else, you know, to know that sitting there talking and eating is not going to be fun and I'm going to eat like two things. So guess what? I'm going to eat ahead of time.

That's a great idea to, um, to just make sure that, you know, I'm comfortable then then I don't have to do that thing, but I can also grab something. If I want it in my hands, 

Steph: right? Yeah. Yeah. It has something to do with my hands because it's so awkward. It wasn't, it wasn't awkward at all. It was totally fine, but you're absolutely right.

Like maybe that it, maybe it just happens more slowly when we think [00:22:00] about deepening connections to where it's like, okay, I'm not going to have a buzz, so I'm not going to go in there and be besties with all of my neighbors right away, but I also can go in there. You know, with this clear head and fully present without my guard up now, where, when I was a drinker, if I would have done that alcohol free, I probably would have had a guard up because I would have felt so uncomfortable.

But I've had over a year of practice now of showing up to different parties, different events and stuff like that, where, you know, haven't used alcohol and I made it through alive.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, you made it through a lot, right. And going to those things, like to skip ahead, the little of the strategies, but like not, not strategies necessarily, but just recognizing that the more you do something, the more comfortable you're going to get with it. It might not be totally comfortable, but, it's like, don't think my neighbors will listen to this, but we've gone to a couple of their parties, but they were, like a Cinco de Mayo party and a [00:23:00] uh, it was another holiday party that I brought my bag with alcohol free drinks in it and he's like, Oh, you don't have to do that. We got, we got stuff over there. And I looked and there's absolutely zero that wasn't alcohol. Like I could have got tap water and, you know, so coming prepared, uh, is one thing, but that whole time I'm like, I'm not drinking and I'm sitting there talking to the neighbors, some new neighbors and I heard at both of those parties, I heard the same 30 minute. conversation about something, at both things told the second time, told, like, it was the first time. And I was like, Oh yeah, that's, you know, and then I had another conversation about the deer around here, um, with somebody I didn't know.

And I'm like, so obviously not deepening connections here, but. I feel like we, we think that, Oh, we had this party and we had this deep connection and then we don't realize that if I was drinking, I've been all over that one story the second time I would have been like, Oh yeah. [00:24:00] And we would have laughed and it would have been, um, you know, we would have thought like, yeah, we connected there.

Um, when in reality. I heard it the first time, uh, it was, it was a good story, uh, I guess, but you know, it's just, you know, we have to take a look at, I think, and kind of pull, pull the wool back a little bit to see like these deep connections that we want or think we have, are they really that deep? Um. Or do we just feel like we wake up feeling like, Oh, we had this connection.

Steph: Yeah. I'm just, I'm like dying over the deer in the neighborhood story. That is such like a Midwest suburb conversation. 

Kevin: Yeah. I could probably look out my window right now and see a deer if I waited like two minutes. Um, but yeah, like literally 30 to 40 minutes. I was the, I was just sitting there nodding my head.

And, and I was like, okay, I'm looking around trying to [00:25:00] make eye contact with everybody else and nobody was making eye contact with me. They're like, Nope, tag, you're it. You get to hear the deer story now. Yeah, it is. It is a, we have all, we have deer all back in these woods here. 

Steph: I know my mom in Michigan will send me like pictures of the deer in her backyard.

And then she's like, this one's eating my flowers. So I get it. I totally get how that's like a party combo. Um. But yeah, I mean, you bring up like probably the holy grail of points with that is, uh, try going to one of these events and, you know, staying alcohol free or sticking to your drink limit and just see how deep those connections are.

The longer the night goes and the more and more other people drink, because you'll realize like it's the same conversation over and over again. And it's the only reason why it would feel like a deep connection is because your brain chemistry is altered. And so you think you're having this great conversation with Kevin, [00:26:00] but, you know, you don't realize that it's, you've already talked about that.

Kevin: Yeah. And I think people worry too about like, yeah, I know someone shared recently about I feel like I'm funny and I feel if I don't drink, I'm not going to be funny or I'm not going to, and I thought that too I'm sarcastic.

I'm a smart ass. I mean, I try, I try not to be, I'm not mean about it, but, um, all right, I'm not bringing my wife up here to, to confirm this. She's, she could probably be annoyed with it. I'll put it that it's certain things. Um, and unfortunately, My daughter and I are exactly like, so she's the same way.

So, my wife's outnumbered, but yeah, I mean, that was like a big concern. Like, how do I, you know, how am I going to show up? And I realized like by doing it, you know what, I'm still funny. Like I'm still, I actually, I feel like, and this feels self serving or this feels like, okay, we needed someone else to weigh in on the fact that I'm funny, but, you know, just, we feel like how we show up before.

And, we're a certain way, we're [00:27:00] out, we're outgoing, we're funny. We're a good listener, all these things, whatever it might be. And then we feel like, oh, if I take this thing away that I've used, or if I don't, you know, if I reduce it and I, and I'm not going to have as much, like I'm not going to be on that same level.

And it's scary to feel like I might be losing a part of myself, but again, it's like, that's still there. You're still funny. You're still whatever. That doesn't go away like alcohol, you know there's not a secret ingredient that includes laughter or, uh, hilarity, like, no, I mean, it's just that that's still there.

And I think we just have to, again, prove it to ourself and show it. And, you know, it was my brothers, we went out, uh, when I first stopped, um, drinking for the, for the first, uh, period, um. And they were like making fun of me. They're like, you're like the, not making fun of me. But like, I was like, boom, boom, boom.

Well, you know, brothers, or it can be a little, uh, go back and forth. Uh, and it was just like one thing after another, I was pulling out and like quick too, and they're like, [00:28:00] wow, okay. Apparently if you take away alcohol, it makes you like you took the pill from limitless where you're using a hundred percent of your brain now and just firing on all cylinders so, I kind of realized quick that I'm like, okay, that's still there.

Like, it's still me. Um And, you know, sometimes that just takes you to, it can be hard, but that can take proving it to yourself. Yeah. 

Steph: Yeah. I mean, I'm with you on that. Like my, even when I, if I wasn't currently drinking, but while I was still a drinker, like my brain power was so slow and I'm like you, I got that like sarcasm thing and whatever.

I just feel like my, my wittiness is next level. Like, it's not that. It's not just that it's still there. It's that it's there and it's like leveled up without, you know, with an extended period of time for me without alcohol. And part of it is, I mean, a lot of this is a trust, like trust those who came before you process to [00:29:00] where, when I think of the symptoms the first week or so, when it's just.

Like you're not feeling better yet. You're fatigued. It's just a kind of blah or whatever. Like you really have to trust everyone else that, it's going to get better. And then it's the same thing when we're talking about these social situations and deepening these connections and being able to even connect, like connect without the alcohol.

It's like, you kind of just have to trust us too and practice it a few times and observe to see, see what happens when you do that. 

Kevin: That's a great, uh, thought. Like the people, yeah, trust the people that came before you, because recognize that whether you're cutting back or quitting, like you're worried about this situation, somebody did it while moderating or while not drinking.

Right? I mean, you're not the only one that's ever gone through this. And, that's not to dismiss, what you're feeling, [00:30:00] but I think it's helpful to, I know that was helpful for me to recognize. Like, okay, I can get through this. Other people do this. I can get through this. It's like, whenever people talk about their professions, like, or, or where they live, I always laugh because, you know, at this point I've heard, I've heard it all, I've heard every city, every country, every job is the biggest.

Hardest drinking job in country and city out there. It's like, all right, people, this is everywhere. Again, back to the ubiquity of it all, like it's everywhere. So, you know, while there are unique challenges for each of those, right? There are people in each of those who don't drink or drink less, you know, so, uh, just recognizing that and realizing that you're not a pioneer, um, you know, might be a little comforting.

I don't know. 

Steph: No, it is. I mean, that's, isn't that half of what these community meetings are all about too, is just knowing that you're not alone and [00:31:00] feeling like you can really be truly open and honest about it. Like I think about. The people who feel shame when they used to like hide alcohol around the house or something like that.

And it's like, you can come to this, community of people where the other people have done that too. And it's like, you're not alone. And that makes you feel like, you know, that helps build up that confidence too. That like other people can do it. So I can too. Everyone's been through this situation, so I can make it through to. And I mean, to your point about how, you know, in every city, every country, every profession, we're not like dismissing the fact that certain jobs and places are more high stress or bigger drinking culture than others or whatever. It's your lived experience and that's true for you.

But like the most important thing that you said there was that other people in that city, that country, that industry, like not [00:32:00] everyone is using the same way .

Kevin: I mean, accounting, I know every deadline, there's a party every there's happy hours. I remember when I was, uh, initially stopping, I was so worried we were going out with our auditors, um, to this nice restaurant.

And I was like, what am I gonna order? They don't have anything on their menu. What am I going to say? And, you know, so I got there and I'm like, do you have any mock tails? I can't remember what I said, but it was awkward and weird. Cause it was like the first time I was doing this and they're like, no, I'm like, all right, I'll have a club soda and lime.

Like it was late and, and it turns out like the partner for the auditors doesn't drink and I'm like, Oh, okay. Well, and he's like, yeah, I'll have a water. It was nothing. And that was, that was really kind of eyeopening that, uh, you know, just to see someone else, especially at that level,

you feel like, you know, you have to, um, I don't know, play a game or a charade, play the charades or whatever that, that, to get, go through this. But no, [00:33:00] and I was like, okay. If he doesn't drink, then why should I care? 

Steph: Yeah, that's an excellent point. I, um, yeah, I mean, you'll learn that was one of the biggest lessons I learned.

Like. I remember going to my first brunch, you know, that was the place I would have had mimosas in the past. My husband and I were sitting at the bar and they actually had these really good mocktails on the brunch menu. And I ordered one and I look over and like the girl next to me ordered one too. And it's like, people do that?

Like other people. And, and I went to brunch, another brunch example with a bunch of girlfriends. And it was like half of us ordered. Um, alcoholic drinks, half of us didn't, the ones that ordered like a mimosa or whatever, like they would sit on the same one over the entire course of the brunch and sometimes didn't even finish it.

And I mean, seeing it now, it just, it sounds. [00:34:00] I don't know, kind of sad to me that I thought that everyone was getting bottomless mimosas and the idea of like leaving some of my alcoholic drink in the glass was, is like, I still can't even fathom how people do that. My husband does it and I'm like, wow, or he'll like, forget he opened a beer and it'll just get warm and then I'll have to dump it.

And he was like, Oh, well, like, so, I mean, that's like, that's another great takeaway. I don't, I mean, it's a little bit. Um, actually it's not off topic. People are doing it all the time, all around us. And we, we just kind of float through life thinking that everyone drinks like we do, because sometimes it's true because we put ourselves like we associate with people who do drink like we do.

And sometimes it's just because. We're getting wasted and we don't notice that someone's on the same glass of wine that they've been on the entire night, you know? 

Kevin: And that kind of, so what are your thoughts on, on this? Like, cause from that, like, we think that everybody's doing this, [00:35:00] but, but they're not, um, But maybe everyone around us is doing it, right?

You're, you're the average of the five people you hang out with or whatever that is, right? I mean, so, so you draw, you know, people towards you that are similar or doing the same things. Um, so what are your thoughts on like with this whole deepening connection thing? And those closest to us, we might have people around us who that is what they do.

Um, so what are your thoughts on deepening connections with those that we're already friends with that we're already hang out with? And if they're not on the same page with where we're going with this part of our. Journey, right? We're trying to cut back. We're trying to, um, quit.

That can be scary, right? Because they might not be on board with it. How do you go, how do you get past that or, or realize that I thought I had a deep connection with this person, but maybe it was just because of the alcohol or[00:36:00]and that can be where we lose friendships maybe or things like that, but what are your thoughts surrounding that aspect of it? 

Steph: I think like starting small, starting with someone who, who you can have like similar interests with outside of drinking, like for me, moving a lot of my social activities to morning or daytime.

So I have one friend who's a very heavy drinker still. Um, But he, like we go to spin class together, like that's one of the things we do together and we walk our dogs together and we started hosting game night at our house too. And he'll come over and do that. And like, I don't, there aren't like any rules or anything, but like, people aren't getting wasted at my game nights.

I wouldn't enjoy it. If they were, they're just like having a couple of drinks and whatever. Um, so I feel like. Just making sure that alcohol isn't front and center, like, isn't center stage of whatever activity [00:37:00] you're doing. That's really important for me. And even though me and this friend are just like, really just riding, like, driving to spin class together and driving home together.

Like, that feels like a really nice. Like ritual that we have and we have conversation on our way to and from. Um, and like when we walk the dogs and stuff like that, and then other friends, it's like, we're doing, you know, coffee or breakfast, uh, walks, like walks in the park are really common for us. Like we have a lot of really nice parks here.

So we'll just go and like grab a fancy coffee and walk the dogs around like Falls Park or something like that. So starting small and starting with someone who you have like known the longest or feel like you have already have a deeper connection with would be my suggestion and give it a chance too, and don't like

don't expect it to be exactly the same right away, like that the friendship dynamic will [00:38:00] likely change and it could mean that you keep that person at an arm's distance, you know, they might not be someone who's best for your recovery. You may be drinking buddies and think that it was something more just because you were, you know, you were in that haze. That's part of the acceptance piece of it too, but it's so important to give it time and give it the opportunity to evolve because it's just going to be awkward at first, especially if you're used to like me and this friend I'm talking about, we used to just stay up really late, have a campfire, get really drunk, chain smoke cigarettes, and have like these deep conversations and connections and whatever, like it took time for us to figure out how to navigate the friendship away from the late nights that we used to do.

Kevin: And I think you touched on that there were, you know, this could be a, this could be a [00:39:00] partner too. There's different, just knowing there's different layers of, um, different difficulties settings among all these relationships as far as maybe you have this deep, you feel like you have this deep connection with somebody and maybe it's your partner, right?

And maybe that's how you met or, you know, you have this ritual or this have this habit. That's built up over time where, um, drink together and you fear the, like, by stopping or cutting that back, that's going to change the connection. And maybe they're supportive, maybe they're not. Um, but you know, setting boundaries in that situation or with friends is going to be difficult, but I think letting people know like, Hey, this is I'm working on myself here. I'm not everybody goes about this differently, but I was one where I'm working on myself. I'm not trying to change you. I'm not trying to throw this relationship in the upheaval, perhaps, but I need to work on myself and I need you to respect that and you would hope that that [00:40:00] person does. But, you know, that can that can be tough to that might take time for the other person, whoever it is to come around. Not that they won't, um. But, by you making a change like this, you're shining that tiny mirrors back on everyone else.

And they think about, they look at themselves and their relationship with alcohol, perhaps, and that can lead to defensiveness that can lead to support for you, and it just depends. Um, yeah, 

Steph: that's really common. Um, certain people will feel like it's an attack on them when really you're just saying this is about me.

I need to do this for me. And it has, it isn't about you. Like everything is about you. We could probably do another episode on, um, when people that Like our partners or people that we live with when they still drink and they're, you know, maybe not supportive, um, you know, we could do a whole nother episode on that.

But, um, even if you are in that situation, like a quick tip for that, [00:41:00] I think is really just getting creative with how you choose to spend time together. I mean, even though my husband wasn't and isn't a big drinker. He still does drink. And something that we would do is sit around and have drinks at the end of the day and sit outside and talk and watch the dogs play and stuff like that.

And it's like, we still do that. I just changed what's in my glass. But, in terms of the late night stuff we used to do, that's just changed into like daytime bike rides and we'll still go to breweries with friends and there's non alcoholic beer there. You know, we're in our forties, so the late, late nights and clubbing and stuff like that a couple of decades ago, um, but, you know, changing the activity to give you that opportunity to actually connect with the person I think it's a good place to start.

All right. Let's move on. Let's just, we've been talking about this throughout, but let's just kind of [00:42:00] rapid fire some strategies that we have for deepening connections with friends and family when we're cutting back or quitting 

Kevin: alcohol. Yeah. Yeah. I think you said like. Start small, like tell someone that you're comfortable with or that you're close with, first maybe, uh, but I think it's important to tell people, tell someone, just talk about it with somebody, because if you keep it all yourself and you try and hide it and you try and just, you know, I'm just I'll figure it out myself and I'll figure out how to show up.

You know, it's not easy. You control the narrative, like I always say, like, so it's not like you have to come out and be like, Hey, I'm never drinking again. Right. Or, nope, I already had my two. I'm not having any more than that tonight, please don't offer me anymore.

Like it doesn't, you don't have to do that. It can just be like, what are you comfortable with saying in this group of people? I think it's always, uh, it's dependent on who you're with, uh, you know, as far as how deep you want to get with a discussion on it [00:43:00] and know that you don't have to get deep at all and just be like, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not feeling it today.

I'm not drinking and leave it at that, and maybe someone will have a follow up question to it. But, you know, that can feel easy in some circumstances and hard in others. But having somebody know, at least, to talk about it with a friend, uh, can be helpful to... Start the process of getting comfortable with talking to people about it.

Steph: Well, what would you say to someone who doesn't feel ready to share it with anyone yet or feel scared? Because if say that they're, um, yeah, if they're trying to give up alcohol or cut back on it and then they. And then they mess up, like they go over their drink limit. And so they don't want to like tell someone in their life because they're scared that they'll be like, see, we knew you couldn't do it.

Or like, there are people like that out there and that's a legitimate concern. So what would you say to someone like that? 

Kevin: I think, [00:44:00] uh, framing it in a different way. Like, cause I feel like we, we, people think they need to have a certain amount of time doing something before they can announce it, whether that's not drinking, whether that's cutting back, but you don't have to tell people like, I'm not drinking anymore.

And then they see you drinking and they're like, well, and then you feel bad and they're like, Oh, see, you know, instead of. I think framing it in a way that like, you know what I'm working on, this isn't showing up the way I want it. This is impacting me negatively. You know, I, I'm not sleeping well. Whatever it is like to throw out there that, um, so I'm working on my relationship with alcohol right now. Not framing it and I'm not drinking or I'm only having this much and then they see you, whether it is a slip or whether you're drinking more or, or more than they thought, like, I think just framing it, because all this is is this about, working on

you, um, it's not about the alcohol. It's about the reasons, that we might reach for [00:45:00] alcohol that have become, um, not great. Right. Reaching for stress, needing it as a crutch to, uh, talk with people and things like that. So, it's working on all these other things in our life.

And yeah, by doing that, like I'm removing or reducing alcohol. Um, but not framing it as solely like, I can't have alcohol. I can't drink that much. Because nobody's perfect, right? I mean, nobody's perfect. So, you know, take, say, Hey, I'm taking this month to just kind of work on my relationship with alcohol.

I know some people might be like, I'm not going to say that, but, but say it in your own words. Like, what does that look like? Like, no, yeah, I've been drinking too much. I'm, I'm taking a break, not sure what that means yet. Um, but right. I mean, taking the pressure off or, you know, sometimes people thrive on challenges, like, no, I'm doing sober September or whatever coming up here and [00:46:00] whatever you want to call it.

Like, and if you drink 10 days in September is not over. Right. So just keep working on yourself. And if someone calls you out on that or says something, be like, yeah, I had a slip up, but I'm right back at it and working on it. Um, Yeah, figuring it out. It's tough. 

Steph: Yeah, that's really good advice. I mean, my opinion is most people won't notice or won't, they'll just be like, Oh, okay.

Like the other day we had our game, like our game night on Wednesday. And, um, one of the dudes who came over, he works outside and he's like, I'm drinking Gatorade tonight because it was just so hot in the sun all day, you know, and he's a drinker too. And it's just like, yeah, it is hot out. Of course you're like, you're dehydrated because you work outside all day.

Like that, it sounds like a Gatorade would be really refreshing right now. Um, so I feel like. In most [00:47:00] scenarios, most of our true friends and like our loving family, they'll just like, no one will really notice or care, but sometimes they do. Like, I mean, I hear like from the community that people will like have people pushing it on them or whatever, but, um, yeah, I mean, telling people that's at least one person, um, yeah, good advice and sharing whatever your company, like auditing the situation on hand, auditing the people you're with. How you're feeling that day, how far you want to get into it or potentially get into it. Yeah, those are all factors to consider with that. Um, so what else do you think about deepening connections without alcohol? 

Kevin: You mentioned some things before, like finding new ways to connect with people I think is so important.

Instead of staying up late and, drinking, you can go for the bike ride during the day, like you said, or, meeting at the coffee shop, uh, [00:48:00] for lunch or, or meeting for lunch instead of dinner and drinks or finding those other ways to connect with people because it's not always gonna, it doesn't always have to be something like that too, but, but you have to get, you have to get comfortable with yourself before I think you can, um, show up and maybe old ways too like, I wasn't ready to just go straight to the bar for you know, we talked about, football season and stuff.

I wasn't ready to go to the bar right away and watch games or something like that. But now I'll do it like I can connect in those ways before and I'll order a Heineken Zero and then I'll switch over to Diet Coke and I show up how I show up now and, but I wasn't necessarily ready for that and I think recognizing that we don't have to be. We feel like maybe we need to, oh, I have these connections.

I have these, uh, friends that are there. And if I, okay. Don't go to this thing. If I don't go to their party, if I don't do this or that, they're going to [00:49:00] just like toss me aside. It might happen. Like I know I've drifted apart, drifted away from certain friends who we just went out and drank. Um, but. You know, we, we find other ways and then we ourselves get more comfortable too.

I don't know if that's a, it's not necessarily a tip, um, but just recognizing that, I guess finding new ways, I think, to connect with people, I think is important. 

Steph: Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head with that, where, I do see people who are like. on their first or second weekend or something.

And they're like, oh, there's this party. I like invited to go to a bar for someone's birthday. And, I don't want to Not have a social life because I'm, you know, should I go and all of that? And let's just like, yeah, just because you miss one early on, doesn't mean that this is your life forever.

And I'm so glad that you brought that up too, because I was the exact same. Like I withdrew pretty hard the first month or so, like I didn't see it as [00:50:00] withdrawing. I wasn't really that worried about it. I was just like. I know I'm so exhausted and I know if I go out feeling exhausted, I'll want to drink and I don't want to drink.

So it's like protecting yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah, I try to tell this to clients too, where I'm like, it's just, it's just temporary, like changing your environment temporarily so that you can. And like what we talked about a couple weeks ago, like the, um, prioritizing yourself where it's like, it's, it's just like a short period of time where you're really getting to know yourself without the substance or with reduced amount of alcohol and all of this stuff pops up and you just, you need more space to work through it.

And the answer isn't always distracting yourself by going out and trying to immediately have the same exact life you had before, just without the substance or with a reduced amount of the substance, it's going to change. And, you know, [00:51:00] that's, that's part of what we need to be honest about too, is that there are aspects that change and it's still worth it.

A surprising benefit to me doing all of this personal growth stuff was just how confident I felt making these decisions, even when it was to skip the thing where I didn't feel like. Maybe in the beginning I felt like I was missing out and it's like, Oh, I'm not drinking.

And so I'm not going to go to this like wine tasting or whatever. And then now it's like, I just want to spend my time other ways and I don't feel like I'm missing out because I'm still filling my days with these people and with these activities that bring me joy. And I still get to spend time with these people, but like, I don't know, it's just when alcohol is center stage, that's.

It's just something I don't really want to, I genuinely don't want to be a part of. And yeah, like husband, go ahead, go have fun, you know, whatever. Um, but I don't know when it shifts, but there is that subtle shift where [00:52:00] it doesn't feel like you're missing out on anything anymore. You're just building a life by design, like the way that you want to design it.

And that's something that doesn't fit in anymore. There's other ways you'd rather spend your time than doing something like that. So, yeah. 

Kevin: But, you know, again, having that plan in place, like thinking and thinking through is like, how do I show up with these things and how can I show up successfully here? Can I show up successfully here? Um, and yeah. Continue to ask those questions. 

Steph: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay. Um, anything else you want to chat about?

About deepening connections before we move on? 

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think just, you know, we might have mentioned it, just being prepared that some friends might not know how to react too. Might some people, friends, family, whatever it might be, you know, might need more time. to, get behind this new thing that [00:53:00] we're doing perhaps.

Um, That doesn't mean they won't, but, not going into it thinking like everybody's going to be so happy for me and or so mad or whatever. Right. And there's that middle ground.

Steph: Yeah, that's pink cloud thinking right there. Um, no, that's a good point. Like we're not really meant to have deep connections with everyone either.

Um, I think it's. And I think there's like various levels of friendships and connections and acquaintances that you can have. And, I don't know. I think, yeah, being honest about that too, like you, like that's exactly what you were saying where it's like, yeah, it might take some people time to come along, to come around and they, they might not.

And it doesn't mean that you have to cut them out of your life. It just means that. That relationship may evolve right along with you as you like work through your stuff. So, um, yeah, it's just a good way to be [00:54:00] really honest and authentic and like fact finding, like what are the facts right now and, you know, making decisions based on that.

So, all right. Anything else, Kevin? 

Kevin: Uh, no, I don't think. 

Steph: All right. Let's move on to tip of the week, uh, in this segment, we'll. Um, we'll give you one tip that you can take action on this week to move your life forward, Kevin, what do you have for us? 

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm going to be repeating, uh, you know, some of the stuff that we've already talked about, but I think again, whenever we're thinking strictly, like just thinking in the realm of how do I have deep connections?

You know, it's just looking back at what we think our deep connections were to begin with and asking ourselves, like, were those deep connections? Just looking at it through this new lens of, um, [00:55:00] because we kind of had, we bucket things and we're like, Oh, deep connection, deep connection, deep connection.

And like. I connect with this person, but ask yourself well, why, why have I connected with this person all the time? How have I connected with this person all the time looking at the connection itself and is it based on mutual likes and dislikes or is it based on, um, Hey, we do this thing, and we remember half of it on.

I'm not saying that just because you drink with someone means that you don't have a deep connection at all. But I think being honest with the level of the depth of that connection sometimes and how alcohol plays a role in that I think is important. So, you know, just looking at it honestly, and then, recognizing that you won't figure this out and in a day. It's not going to, um, some people might take more time to come around, but also,

you're going to learn along the way. Uh, yeah, we always talk about how, [00:56:00] you know, that picture that we have in our head, whenever we start out on something like this, uh, Hey, I'm going to quit drinking, I'm going to cut back on drinking. We have this picture in our head at that moment, and I'm going to tell you that picture is not going to be what it's like down the road, you know, that picture will change.

Um. And I think just, giving yourself the opportunity to figure it out as you go and to connect with people, meet them where they are and have them meet you where you are at that time and not kind of, don't feel the, you're going to feel pressure to keep things status quo. But remember that you're doing this for yourself first and foremost, so how can you.

Respect that and still connect with people. And that just takes time. 

Steph: Love it. Great tip, Kevin. Thank you. All right, let's wrap it up. 

Kevin: All right. , thanks, Steph. Thank you [00:57:00] all for listening to this week's episode of the Reframeable podcast brought to you by the Reframe app reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. If you have a topic you'd like us to cover for on the podcast, send an email to podcast at reframe app.

com, and we will take your comments and questions and answer them anonymously throughout our episodes, if you're on the Reframe app, you can just. Give the phone a shake when you're in the app and ask a question and let us know there too. I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back next week for another episode.

Have a great day. Bye Kevin. See ya. 

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