KindlED
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED
Episode 41: School Choice & Policy. A Conversation with Norton Rainey.
This week, Kaity and Adriane chat with Norton Rainey, CEO of ACE Scholarships. Norton is all in on opening doors to top-notch education for every kid, no matter where they come from. In this episode, Norton dives into how ACE Scholarships is making a huge difference for families and just how important it is for parents to stand up for their kids' learning.
Episode 41 also explores:
🔥 tax credits and Education Savings Accounts and what that means for public schools' cash flow
🔥 how tech makes it a breeze to apply for scholarships
🔥 the future of learning
🔥 and so much more!
Don't miss this eye-opening conversation on how school choice and education policy are changing lives 🚀✨
*Correction: In the episode, Kaity says ClassWallet is the program manager for Arizona's Empowerment Scholarship Accounts. However, the Arizona Department of Education administers the ESA program, and ClassWallet is the financial management platform for the ESA program.
👤 ABOUT THE GUEST 👤
Norton Rainey serves as the CEO of ACE Scholarships, leading the charge for education reform in America. ACE Scholarships provides K-12 scholarships to lower-income children, enabling them to attend private K-12 schools. In addition, the organization collaborates with state legislatures to advocate for school choice policies.
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Zip codes often determine the quality of education a student receives, with lower-income neighborhoods having limited access to good schools.
- Education savings accounts (ESAs) and other school choice programs allow parents to choose the best educational environment for their children.
- Research shows that school choice programs have positive outcomes, including higher graduation rates, improved test scores, and increased parental engagement.
🔗 LINKS 🔗
- Learn more about ACE Scholarships and their work in the school choice movement.
- Follow Norton on LinkedIn
- Follow ACE Scholarships on Facebook
- Follow ACE Scholarships on Instagram
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast:
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
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We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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and the most powerful voices in our country. It's not organizations like ACE, it's the parents who are fighting on behalf of their children to have access to good schools, and so that's why we're seeing programs across the country explode, because legislatures are hearing from parents and they're also looking at the facts, and that is that we're not performing as a country educationally, and so we must do something about it.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to the Kindled podcast where we dig into the art and science behind kindling the motivation, curiosity and mental well-being of the young humans in our lives.
Speaker 3:Together, we'll discover practical tools and strategies you can use to help kids unlock their full potential and become the strongest version of their future selves. Welcome to the Kindled podcast. My name is Adrienne Thompson and I'm here with Katie Broadbent, and today we are going to talk about education, choice and education policy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, usually policy doesn't sound super exciting, I guess, but it really is exciting because when we have laws and legislature that helps families get the kind of education that they need for their kids, then we can empower learners, which is our goal. So I think it's a really important topic and it's a very heated topic right now, I feel, like you know, in the on the national scene.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, especially where we live in Arizona, just because ESAs and I, you just went down to the Capitol, didn't?
Speaker 2:you yeah.
Speaker 3:Your micro school yeah.
Speaker 2:Arizona has one of the, I will say, best education choice laws in the country and there's a lot of opposition to it and hopefully our guest today will help us understand the why behind that. But yeah, we just took some micro schools down to the Capitol just to show our support for all of these kids who are getting this very dreamy education. And lots of these kids came out of public schools. They had been bullied, they were not doing well academically. They've really had to fight for the ability to go to a school that they love and that supports them, and we just feel like more people ought to have that right.
Speaker 2:So our guest today is Norton Rainey. He serves as the CEO of ACE Scholarships. He's leading the charge for education reform in America. Ace Scholarships provides K-12 scholarships to lower-income children, enabling them to attend private K-12 schools. In addition, the organization collaborates with state legislatures to advocate for school choice policies. Norton Rainey is highly respected for his expertise in organizational management, board governance, revenue growth, relationship management and scalability. So super excited to talk to Norton today. Let's do it. Norton Rainey, welcome to the Kindle podcast. We're super excited to have you on today.
Speaker 1:Me too. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the first question we want to dig into is tell us a little bit about your background and your big why. What change are you seeking to make in the world and how did you come into this work?
Speaker 1:Katie and Adrienne, thanks again for having me on your program. It's always great to talk about education education in America and arguably what I think is the most important issue that is facing our country. In the United States of America, you know, listen, we live in the greatest country in the world. America has always led the world, it doesn't matter what sector it is, and what we're seeing right now is something that is unbelievable. We're seeing our country fall behind other countries at a record pace, and that has to do solely with our education in America. When you look at math and science and reading and how we stack up against other countries, the fact is we're just not performing, and that's unacceptable as America. And so the work that we do at ACE Scholarships is really critical, and I've been very fortunate to be in the school choice movement now for 22 years.
Speaker 1:The organization I have the privilege of leading is called ACE Scholarships, and we were founded almost 25 years ago by these remarkable business leaders that had a desire to really level the playing field for lower income parents and students in Denver, colorado, and so they funded a program, and we've given out 80,000 scholarships since our founding in the year 2000.
Speaker 1:But it's so much more than scholarships being provided to kids. It's about life-changing experiences. It's about our children having access to schools where they can flourish, where they can thrive and where they can actually be who they want to be not just being educated, but also students who have great values and virtues and a promise for a better future because of their education. So the work that we do at A Scholarships is awesome. We're very proud of the work we do and we're also proud to be in the school choice movement, where we have remarkable allies in this movement that are doing amazing work. Right now, and as I know we'll talk about today, we're going to discuss school choice in America and how, right now more than ever, we are seeing an explosion of school choice programs, which is so good for our country, but, more importantly, it's great for all the families that have access to meaningful programs.
Speaker 3:That's amazing what ACE is doing. But what about you as Norton Rainey? What about your personal? Why?
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks, adrienne. So my personal why in this movement is really leveling the playing field. It's allowing parents to have access to the great schools that their kids should go to. I feel very blessed as a parent, where I have a tremendous job. I was educated, so was my wife, and, honestly, we have the resources to put our children into excellent private schools and that's been a really good thing for our family. We have a student that has special needs, who is on the spectrum, and our son has benefited greatly because of private schools he's gone to. I've seen our other two children that were not on the spectrum, that just needed, frankly, a more rigorous academic environment, and so as I travel the country and I see the needs in this movement right now, I recognize that there are too many kids that are being left behind and that's unacceptable. So my personal why is really leveling the playing field and making sure that everyone has a chance at the American dream where they can be prosperous, and again, that really does begin with education.
Speaker 3:Yeah, accessibility is really important, and you know we talk about this on the podcast all the time. I also have a child on the spectrum and all three of my kids go to different educational environments. One's in a hybrid school, one has a private teacher learning pod just very eclectic education, and then another one is at a Montessori school and we're actually looking at a micro school for next year for him. So I am very, very thankful for school choice and living in a state where we have choice, because I have friends that you know live in Virginia or Pennsylvania and they're like when is this going to happen here? And it's like I don't know. And so it's really I am finding a lot of gratitude of like okay, we do have choice, now what are we going to do with this choice? And then also educating other parents who may not have the resources to be able to send their kids to an environment that's most conducive to how they learn. And so you talked about school choice. Can we dive into what exactly is school choice? What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Sure Happy to do so, and I think also, adrienne, you bring up some excellent points when you talk about education. In America, we had these awesome founding fathers of ACE scholarships. We had these five men who were extraordinarily successful in business and they made a lot of money, and one of our founders, a guy named Ed McVaney who started a software company called JD Edwards. He'd always say that if you live in a zip code and you're wealthy, likely that zip code is going to have a good public school, or you put your kid in a zip code and you're wealthy, likely that zip code is going to have a good public school, or you put your kid in a private school.
Speaker 1:If you're middle income, you move to a neighborhood where there's a great zip code and it's a good public school, but if you're poor, you're stuck in an area in a zip code that, frankly, is not allowing you access to the best education, and that's the American education system as we know it currently. We have the haves and we have the have-nots. We have those with money or who live in a great neighborhood, but for those who do not, they're really truly not being able to capitalize on opportunities that many people have, and so we are so very blessed in this movement. Many families are, but honestly, too many are being left behind. So the work that we're doing collectively is great.
Speaker 2:Real quick. We're in the education world, we know how the funding works and everything like that, but for our listeners, can we just really go back to the basics here? Why is it that if you live in a lower income, zip code that that might mean that your schools are of a lower quality? What is the tie between zip code and, like public school funding? Explain that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not a money deal. I think most people think that money is the answer and that if you just pour more money into a school, let's just take a public school system that's failing, you put more money in there that that school do better. Money is very rarely the reason why a school does well. In fact, if you look at our lowest performing schools in America, they happen to be in urban inner city communities and these are neighborhoods that are really well funded where, honestly, the per pupil operating revenue for those students is much higher. If you look at Chicago, new York, I think they're well over 30,000 per student right now. So there's a lot of money flowing into the school system.
Speaker 1:Teachers are doing just fine as well, but what it comes down to is that if you're in a wealthier neighborhood, you tend to have parents that are very invested and they have a voice that is greater based on their kids. But, for whatever reason, in lower income families right now, it's not a lack of desire for their kids to have access to good education. They just don't know how to advocate and fight for their kids. You've got single moms or you've got parents that are working two and three multiple jobs. They're just trying to make sure their kids stay safe, and so when their kid goes to a school, that is their escape so they can actually go to work. But they want their kid to have a better life, so they're not working two to three jobs and having a hard time putting food on the table. So it never is a money issue it really comes down to. Is it a focus issue? And it comes down to, I think, the school system as well their commitment to the kids and letting them fail.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we just focus on the dollar amount. There's lots tied into this, not just a money thing.
Speaker 1:Well, and Adrienne, you mentioned earlier that you live in Arizona and your family is benefiting from education savings accounts, and that's a really great thing there, so that money is actually allowing you to have choice. But you're still limited on the amount of that scholarship. In Arizona is it around $8,000 per student? Is that about?
Speaker 2:right, it's less. It's less, usually about $7,000. Depends on their grade and it's still tied to the district that you live in.
Speaker 3:It's like 90% of the funding you would have received, unless you have special needs or other qualifications where you can get additional funding and one of my son does qualify for a lot more funding than that base amount, but one is at the base amount and he goes to a private school. That's $12,000 a year. So we are still paying, you know, $4,500 out of pocket per year.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a big reason why parents are successful in school choice is because it's not a free ride.
Speaker 1:We call it the skin-in-the-game factor, that if you're investing in your child's education you have skin in the game and so you're invested. And if you look at most of our ACE families, the average income is less than $40,000 per year. The average family size is close to four members per household. So do the math on that $10,000 per family member per year in income, that's not a lot of money. And they're committing to their child's education to go to often a private school and their average contribution many times is approximately $2,000 per year. That's a lot of money that goes into your education. So skin in the game and motivation by a family member is a really significant driver in their success. By a family member is a really significant driver in their success. But here's what we know Most Americans right now, most American parents, they want their kids in a better environment and that's why school choice is really exploding in America at this time, because they're very dissatisfied with choices that are given to them and they're demanding better options for their kids.
Speaker 3:Can you walk us through the history of school choice and you know what that looks like across the country Because you know we're in Arizona, as I mentioned. We have a lot more choice than you know people in other states. Does it vary, like, how are politics connected to school choice?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. School choice has been around for decades, for probably three to four decades, and I would say some of the founding fathers of School of Choice were the city of Milwaukee and Cleveland. They were two of the first cities to adopt legislative pass programs and they were called vouchers, and so these two cities really led the charge in School of Choice. And then over time, more cities have tried to pass what were vouchers and that's now transitioned to tax credits and now it's moved on to education savings accounts or ESAs, and ESAs just give more flexibility for families to use that money not only for a private school but for micro schools, for tutoring, transportation, really anything that enhances your education. But the movement as a whole has been a long war and there's been a lot of battles that have been fought. Some have been won, many have been lost. Sadly, in the state of Colorado we passed a voucher program in 2003, only to see that program overturned by our state Supreme Court, and so many times it falls into the hands of our legislators and lawmakers who ultimately are making decisions on behalf of kids. Sadly, in our country at this time it really is a red and a blue state model. You have red states that tend to be more conservative, that are passing legislative efforts of school choice, and they have blue states that are not for the most part, and that means that kids do not have choice in where their kids or I should say, parents do not have choice in where their kids go to school.
Speaker 1:This is not a partisan issue. It has become a partisan issue and it's very unfortunate because we're talking about the livelihood of our children and there's nothing political about education of our children and there's nothing political about education. Education is something that every single child in America deserves access to, and I would say shame on our politicians who are not voting for programs that would enable and pave the way for kids to go to great schools and basically what they're doing is they are subjecting parents into schools that aren't working. This is not an anti-public school model whatsoever. This is an anti-mediocre education. We believe that every kid is going to do great in the environment. That's right for them. So school choice is a movement that this war will rage on, but we have so much to be grateful for because, more than ever in the last couple of years, we've seen an explosion of programs across the country, because we know it works. This is not a theory. We have empirical evidence in the fact that school choice works.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Okay, so we want to get into that research, but first I kind of want to understand at at Prendo, we really like to teach kids how to think, not what to think, which means we need to really look at both sides of the equation and the argument. And I mentioned earlier that I had just taken a group of micro schools down to our capital to show support for the school choice program. But what I didn't explain is that before we went, we actually held a Socratic discussion about the issues where we actually looked at the governor's plan to reform and constrain the school choice program and we looked at the counter arguments and we let the kids really evaluate what they thought and it was really awesome to see them considering things from both sides. Then when we went down to the Capitol, they were so respectful. They did not go down there with an attitude of like we are just this like narrow minded group of people who only want one thing and can't listen to anyone else.
Speaker 2:And it was so fascinating because we listened to some conservative politicians speaking on behalf of the ESA program and then afterwards on the ride home I was like what did you guys think about that?
Speaker 2:And they were like oh, actually we disagreed with so and so, and we also teach them about argumentative styles and logical fallacies and things like that, and they were able to point out how the rhetoric of both sides of the argument in the adult world were very emotionally driven and very one-sided and all sorts of things. And we're just like oh, I'm so happy we're able to raise a generation of kids. Ironically, through the ESA program is the thing that allows us to have these conversations with these kids and these experiences, but to really help them see how the adult world works and how in many ways, it's broken and does not serve families and kids, and they were able to see that firsthand. So my question is what are some of the pushbacks against the school choice movement and you were mentioning? You know some states are less likely to vote for school choice policies and I'm just wondering why. Like what are the arguments against that? You said it's not an anti-public school movement, like, tell me more about that.
Speaker 1:Well, katie, I think you're bringing up a really good point, and that is that, unfortunately, our lawmakers, our politicians, our adults are making decisions on behalf of our children and often it's not the right decision. So I want to tell you a very quick story and I will answer your question about what the arguments are. But if you go into Chicago, chicago had a tremendous program called the Investing Kids Program and it was a scholarship program that was actually shut down last year by lawmakers of their choice. The families who received these scholarships were thriving, it was a new opportunity for them and they were doing tremendously well. But lawmakers said that they need to focus on enhancing their public schools, putting more money in their public school system. They said that this program is taking away money from public schools, and so they shut the program down.
Speaker 1:We hear that argument quite often, and that is that when you pass a school choice program, that you are taking away money from public schools. It's needed money, that's required, and the honest truth is you're not taking money away from public schools. If it's a tax credit program, you have to raise that money Now. Granted, the donor is receiving a tax credit, but it's incumbent upon the organization to raise that money. So this is not state money. It's money upon the organization to raise that money. So this is not state money. It's money that you have to raise A ESA program.
Speaker 1:They're almost always being funded by surpluses in the state budget or a budget allocation, so it's actually not stripping away money from public schools. If anything, as I mentioned earlier, we're seeing that teacher salaries and the cost per student is actually increasing, so it's not a money issue within our schools. But also you'll hear from people who just say you're inside public schools. It just comes down to a very basic argument and that's not the case. It really comes down to just letting parents put their kid in the environment where they can thrive. But money is always the number one issue that we hear all too often and sadly that's just not the case.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how does ACE scholarships fit into this? Is it just another option or is that privately funded? Or where's that money coming from? And how does that fit into this space with the ESAs? And is there anything like with the politics with ACE? Or is it just private? And then you're just part of this story. I'm just really curious how you fit into all of this.
Speaker 1:Sure? No, that's a great question. So there's two things we do at ACE is we provide privately funded scholarships to low income parents, or I should say lower income parents in grades K through 12. And then we also advocate for school choice legislation. So we have a policy government affairs team that is working to preserve school choice legislation and also to pass legislation as well. We operate in 12 states and in our 12 states, four of them have tax credit programs.
Speaker 1:One of our newest states, the state of Utah, just passed an ESA effort last year. State of Utah just passed an ESA effort last year and we were selected a few months ago to be the program manager for Utah. So we raised money the old-fashioned way. We raised money through tax credits and now we're accepting money from the state of Utah to be the program manager for their ESA effort. And we are advocating vigorously this year for more ESA programs in some of our partner states Arkansas is one that we operate in. They passed an ESA program. Louisiana's legislature will very soon be hearing an ESA bill and in some of our other states we're looking at also passing programs. So we've got a great team that is passing legislation.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. So just for our listeners who maybe don't know how an ESA works, essentially what happens is the state education department of education will put a pile of funds that would have been used to educate your child if they had signed up, you know, enrolled at their neighborhood public school. Those funds go into an account that is usually overseen by a program manager, and so in Arizona this is a company called Class Wallet, and in Utah it will be ACE, which is really exciting and so a program manager helps families access those funds and helps the Department of Education manage the dispersal of those funds. Is that accurate? Would you add anything to that?
Speaker 1:Katie, that's a great description. That was really well said. It really gives freedom and autonomy to the parent to choose the education that's right for their kids and the best way I would describe it. It's like a health savings account or an HSA account which you may have set up in your business, where you have a wallet that's out there and or money that's allocated to your account, and then you've got choices as to where you spend that money. Whether it's a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a traditional doctor, perhaps a functional medicine doctor, you have an allotment of dollars, and that's exactly the same thing with an ESA account is that you have an allotment of dollars that you can use. It's incumbent upon the program manager to ensure that those monies are being distributed and also used appropriately. That is one of the arguments that we do hear from people. Is that what happens if there is a misuse of dollars from a parent? Are they buying a television or traveling and using it for a personal plane ticket to go somewhere around the country? That is, our job as a program manager is to review every single expense and make sure that they are appropriate.
Speaker 1:I will point out there are some arguments against Utah or, I'm sorry, against Arizona, where some people are saying there have been a misuse of dollars, and that certainly will be the case. When you've got thousands of families, you can't ensure perfection across the board. I think that's something really critical for your listeners to know no one's ever going to be perfect. We will do our best to be perfect, but we will not be. But when you think about how we compare with other government programs that are managing similar efforts for different purposes, the abuse is much less. So far in the ESA space. It's a very, very small percentage. The ESA space it's a very, very small percentage, and there was a great study that came out by Common Sense Institute in Arizona recently that actually showcased the fact that the ESA program is actually doing a really good job managing those dollars.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we just had Jason Bedrick from the Heritage Foundation come and talk to Prenda and he said that a lot of these states that are passing ESAs that back whenever West Virginia and Arizona when they were putting the bid out for program managers that there was pretty much just class wallet and now there's a lot more. So that's saying that these programs have a lot more autonomy and choice in who's going to run these programs as well. These programs have a lot more autonomy and choice and who's going to run these programs as well. And so when did you guys like enter?
Speaker 1:this game or, you know, start to become part of this. I'm just really curious. Well, and also just a point of clarification, because it's it's very complicated, and so we've been learning as we've been drinking from the fire hose. But ClassWallet we would call them the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to the wallet space. They're really good at what they do as a wallet provider. They're not a program manager, and so what they do is they contract with the state of Arizona. In the case of Utah, ace is contracting with ClassWallet and they're going to manage our wallet division, and in many other states around the country, they're doing the same thing. What's really cool about this movement is and it's a great thing about America the great thing about business. We're seeing more competition than ever. We're seeing a lot of for-profit companies and nonprofit companies that are entering the ESA space right now, and so what we're going to see over time is we're going to see a consolidation, perhaps even a commoditized technology platform that is commonplace for everyone, and we're going to continue improving in this movement.
Speaker 1:Ace entered this space in ESAs about a year ago.
Speaker 1:Our governing board came together and we started talking about the movement of ESAs and we were looking at the landscape and we recognized that we're really good at scholarship administration.
Speaker 1:We've been doing this for close to 25 years. We've been a leader in the country and we have a lot of good friends who are leaders in this movement that we love and admire. The more of us out there, the better off our country will be, but we recognize that we had a place in this movement and so we invested very heavily in technology and through our technology we can now manage the application process and what we would say is provide a very seamless experience for every single parent when they begin the ESA process, that when they go to our website and they begin their application, when they're receiving their money from ClassWallet, which we have to manage, that it is a seamless white glove experience so that they can actually have a great experience. And we are thrilled to be in this movement. We're thrilled to be looking at more states and, more importantly, I'm so excited by the fact that our country is finally recognizing how critical school choice is for the sake of the United States.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so grateful that you guys are going to be in there, because we've seen implementation of these laws go well in some states and poorly in other states. I won't mention which ones are going poorly, but they're not a state. So, yeah, really, I think that's really important, because it's great to have a law passed, but if you can't actually make these funds accessible to the average parent, if you put so many barriers to entry in forms, complicated processes like that makes it, so there, you might as well not even have the law because it's just so hard to access the funds. And so I, as a as an ESA parent in Arizona, have have loved. How easy it was to apply and to receive these funds was incredible, and so I'm so grateful to hear that you're committed to that same level of service for parents and helping these families actually access the law and to make sure that the law, the implementation of the law, is successful. So that's super important.
Speaker 1:Katie, we're thrilled about that and I think you bring up a really good point. Our policy director. When he goes to a state, he says that all too often what happens is that you have these amazing programs who come in and they pass legislation whether it's a ESA bill or tax credit and they pass it and they pack up their suitcases and they go home and there's no one to manage these programs. And that was a major reason why we decided to enter the space is that we saw that implementation was really important, and we also recognize the fact that everyone is shrinking from the firehose. These are brand new programs and some states have not been implemented as well as perhaps they need to be. But I would actually also look at that as a positive still, and what I mean by that is that it's a great win for the movement when you're passing programs in a state, because if you have access to more money for kids to go to schools even though you're going to have some cases where implementation may be a little bit rocky it means that kids now have access to schools that they didn't have access to before. And again, when you look at our country, low-income students or students as a whole are really not performing well in math and science and reading. We're not performing against other countries. Our test scores are not good. Our students are not graduating.
Speaker 1:So the win here is that more families now are, for the first time, having hope in their child's life. They're coming home and they're excited by what they're learning. Their family structures are changing and we see that at ACE all the time. It's so much more than a degree or being prepared for your ACT or your SAT, although it seems like a lot of colleges are now not even looking at test scores anymore, which is a travesty.
Speaker 1:We're seeing family dynamics change. We're seeing parents go back to school. We're seeing families eat dinner for the first time. They're playing less video games. Parents are helping them. They're going back to school. You're just seeing positivity across the board and, as we like to say, all boats rise when private schools and families are doing well. We hope that public schools are doing well. We hope that education in America thrives too. So your point is really well taken, katie, and it can be a little sticky at times when you implement these programs, but the reality is just like any great business you're going to always have stickiness when you launch, but over time we're going to get this figured out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm very confident in that too. I've been watching these states roll these programs out and there is definitely that inherent this is new to everyone kind of stickiness, but we definitely have seen the wheels get unstuck and progress being made. So, yeah, super excited to see those.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I keep hearing you reference, you know, public schools and private schools. Do you play a role in the homeschool space or this in-between space kind of where you know micro schools live?
Speaker 1:Good question. We have not played in that space until this year, now that we're in ESAs, because ESA money may be used for homeschools and micro schools Any education that is approved they can use that money toward. So in the past we've not, but now absolutely. We are very big fans of families choosing the education. That's right. We used to homeschool our kids for a period of time. It worked out fabulous. I'm a big fan of it.
Speaker 1:I think when you have parent engagement with your kids, they're doing it because they care so much. And I think that's something we should also broach in this topic is that oftentimes people say, well, if your kid's in a school that's not, or I should say, if a teacher's not certified and they don't have the proper degrees or pedigree, that they should not be teaching. And you can look at homeschool stats across the country and micro school stats. That's not the case at all when you have a caring adult and, frankly now, access to so many different platforms that provide access to good education. Now there are more sectors right now than ever in access for families to educate their kids. So just open it up as much as you can, and when you do that, great things tend to happen.
Speaker 3:Can we dive a little more into the research or what the data is saying about how school choice impacts educational outcomes? I know you mentioned some test scores go up, but do you have a little more research that supports this?
Speaker 1:We have lots of research and we love talking about this. Number one our kids graduate from high school. Last year we had a close to 100% graduation rate. They're scoring anywhere from three to five points more on their ACT scores compared to their lower income peers that are in other schools. They are going to college, they are going into the trades and the military and we know for our students who go to college they're also graduating and they're securing jobs, so they have a chance to realize the American dream. But if you look at basic testing as a whole right now, as a country we look at proficiency rates in math and science and reading and when you look at proficiency rates currently you're seeing ACE students do extraordinarily well, or I should say school choice students as a whole, even outside of ACE programs. They're just doing well.
Speaker 3:Why do you think that is? Do you have even anecdotal data that supports that of like, why this is happening?
Speaker 1:I do. I think they're in a rigorous environment. They're in a healthy environment. The values of that school are top-notch. They're focused on education of their kids and making sure they're well-prepared. They're not distracted by a lot of the issues of our day and time. They're focused on one singular thing and that is the education of their kids. And what we also have to recognize is that business in America only works if business is making money. If you're not making money, you go out of business In the education system. If you're a public school, you don't go to business. You're flush with cash because of taxpayer money. If you're a private school or a micro school and you're not performing, you can't pay your bills. Parents won't put their kids in that school. So they have no choice but to provide an excellent education, because if they're not, people aren't going to pay the money for their kid to go to that school. So it better be a better product.
Speaker 3:So across the board we see great education.
Speaker 3:And you said something earlier too. You said we know that students will do well in the environment that is right for them. I think this is a really big part of that too. It's not just the environment that the parent thinks is good for the child, but attuning to what the child's needs are and seeing if they're flourishing or thriving or if they're floundering in that environment. I think that's a really big part of this too. And so if you only had one choice, if I only had the choice to send my kids to the public school, that's down the road. I know, because of their neurodivergence, that that's not the right environment for them, and so with school choice, we're able to then find an option that works well and fits each of their individual needs.
Speaker 1:Well running a school choice program. People said at times you know, Norton, you must be anti-public schools because you're advocating for a school choice. And I like to tell them my story. Growing up, I actually went to two very good private schools. I was very fortunate to grow up in a family that could afford it and I didn't like my schools and I didn't do well. They were these very small, rigorous environments. And it wasn't until my parents put me into fifth grade of public school that I began doing better and it was the right environment for me.
Speaker 1:I wanted to be in a bigger school, I wanted to have athletic programs, I needed more offerings. But you've got to also understand that I was in a good family, in a good neighborhood where our public schools were good and that served me very well all the way through high school until I went to college. But for our children our options weren't as good for public school and so we were fortunate to get into homeschool and put them into rigorous private schools where we can see the difference in our kids compared to other kids in our neighborhood, because they're being pushed so much right now within the schools they go to. But really, what it boils down to let parents choose Whatever environment they choose. We're agnostic as to where, as long as it's a high quality option.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so interesting to hear you describe what is working for your kids, because it's sounding very different than what would help my kids thrive, which is like an environment full of like choice, and I guess, not necessarily like a lack of rigor, but just like I wouldn't say my kids are being pushed, I would say my kids are learning how to push themselves and so but but that's not right or wrong.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, every little tiny human heart has a different thing that's going to make them develop into the grownup that they're supposed to become. So I just love that we can be like and going back to the idea of this is not a partisan issue Like we literally want different things for our kids and we're advocating for the same policy so we can both have what we need, and I think that's just really beautiful and pretty much what America is all about. And so it's like boggles my mind sometimes when I hear the counter arguments like the the other argument is everyone should be forced to do the same thing, at the same pace, at the same rate, when they're nine or when they're 10 or, and I just I can't say those words out loud and like not feel like that's crazy.
Speaker 3:I think it comes down to values as well, and family values I'm hearing that as well. It's like what is important to you as a family and as your like culture because you made a comment about, you know, colleges not accepting test scores as a travesty, whereas, like my value, I'm like, no, I, I'm not all about the test score. So it's like we have different values and different opinions and different you know. And so it's like what do I value? Like Katie values agency and autonomy with her kids, you know, and I value that my kids are emotionally and mentally safe in their educational environment. Other people value you know that those test scores are really high and that's going to get them into a really good college. So I think it boils down to our values as well and what we want to carry on for our children.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a good point, and it's not all about the test score. So my comments earlier that it's a travesty. What I mean by that is that we have dumbed down our education system so much. We have many kids who are graduating from high school with a 4.0 and they can't make a 20 on their ACT. And if you don't have a certain number on your ACT, you're not actually ready for a college curriculum. But we're passing kids on. We're more focused on the graduation rate, because for so long we talked about how deplorable our graduation rate was in our public school system. So the counter to that now is that we have more kids who are graduating but they're actually not prepared in life. And we have kids who are getting into schools and they're probably not ready. So instead of focusing on the fact that we have a broken system and doing something about that, we're preserving a broken system for the sake of mediocrity and going through the motions like we always have.
Speaker 2:All the while the numbers are looking better, right, it's like this false narrative where, like, yeah, graduation rates have increased because we've made it a lot easier to graduate, you know, so that we can, we can seem like we're winning but we're really not and the, the school and their reputation and like their, you know, when you drive past I drive past all these school that's they say like a plus rate at school, I'm like I don't. What does that even mean? Like are the kids? Does it mean the kids are very happy and fulfilled and making sure that, like they're becoming their strongest version of their future self? Like, how are you measuring that? That's what I care about. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We could really go down a rabbit trail with this one, so boxed.
Speaker 3:My mind is going in so many different ways. And then I think about trades too. It's like, okay, we're so focused on college I mean, we were just talking about that but you look around and trades there's no one entering these trades and they're still really important. You know, I have a friend that has a machine shop and he is trying to start like a school to educate people because they just don't have enough people that know how to use these machines. And it's still needed in the world. Everything is not on the computer and AI, and I know we're moving in that direction, but we still need more than just the education that you're gonna get by going to college.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we spent a fortune recently. Our dishwasher has broken 10 times in the last two months and we've had a service come in different times, and it's actually not easy getting that service.
Speaker 1:But you're exactly right, though, adrienne the trades are something that we look down upon and there's nothing that we should be looking down upon. If you're a smart kid right now I don't mean just academically and you're thinking about your future and you want to be debt free and you want to have a job where you can make good money we have apprentices right now going in the trades. I say we don't mean ace, I mean as a whole in our country that we're starting out at 75,000 and they're very quickly making six figures. We need electricians, we need plumbers, we need carpenters and we look down upon these very valuable trades, and we shouldn't be, and everything they do. They provide freedom in your life because now you're working autonomously, you can work at the level that you want to work and make some very good money. So it is a travesty that we look down upon the trades when, frankly, it's probably one of the greatest opportunities ever in America.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Okay. So I want to dive into the policies a little bit more. We've mentioned ESAs. We've mentioned tax credits. Are there other kind of buckets of policies that fall under the school choice umbrella that we should be kind of watching?
Speaker 1:No, not currently. The old one was vouchers traditional vouchers but there have not been any voucher bills in recent years.
Speaker 2:Can you quickly define voucher, because I still hear that word thrown around like as a replacement for ESA. So can you kind of tease that apart for us.
Speaker 1:Sure. So a voucher is using state money or government money to put your child into a private school. That would probably be the most pure definition of a voucher, and that's what the original school choice programs were that were founded in our country. There is so much opposition to vouchers, saying that you're taking money away from public schools, that it transitioned to tax credit programs and that's where an organization has to raise that money. But the state is offering a tax credit for donations given to that program and that money that's raised can then be used for a kid to go to a private school.
Speaker 1:Esas, or what opponents of ESAs would like to say, is another term for a voucher, is a state appropriation of dollars that allows families to use that money to put their kid not just into a private school but into, as we discussed earlier, a micro school.
Speaker 1:Use the money for homeschool, anything that enhances your education, so you can call it whatever it is. But here's what we do know is that parents voices are being heard, legislatures are doing something about it, and COVID is the time we learned so much about education. Kids were at home, they were on a computer and parents saw what their kids were learning or perhaps what they were not learning, and they were enraged and they spoke up, and the most powerful voices in our country, it's not organizations like ACE, it's our parents. It's the parents who are fighting on behalf of their children to have access to good schools, and so that's why we're seeing programs across the country explode, because legislatures are hearing from parents and they're also looking at the facts, and that is that we're not performing as a country educationally, and so we must do something about it.
Speaker 2:That's good to know that it's not as complicated as Katie thought it was. That's lovely.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think also Katie too. If you look at ESA programs, there are 13 ESA programs in the country. Currently there are 25 states that have a formal school choice, including tax credits and vouchers, and there are multiple states this year that are looking at passing ESAs. So by next year we could have more states with programs, and what I do know is almost every program across the country is expanding because we're seeing such tremendous success from early on and the demand among parents is off the charts and we're unable to fulfill that demand right now. So thank God our legislatures once again are actually doing something about it and passing programs that put more money into the hands of parents.
Speaker 2:Something you said just reminded me of another type of school choice thing, like I'll hear. So in Arizona we have open enrollment. Essentially you don't have to go to the school that you're technically assigned to. If you can get your child to the school, you can enroll there. So that's another type of school choice policy. I just think that it's important to differentiate all these words, because people will look at an open enrollment state and say you guys already have school choice, you can choose any public school to go to.
Speaker 2:But that's really not what we're talking about. We're talking about complete, not complete, because I think there are still definite regulations and restrictions on how you use these funds, which I think are good. I'm actually very in favor of them as long as they're reasonable, but it's it's so limited. It's like would you like this apple or this other identical apple, right? It's like, you know, like the choice is not appreciable. So, um, when we're talking about school choice and um, esas, I think it's important that, like the, we can kind of like, place these things along along a spectrum, right Of like how much choice the law or type of school choice policy would give to a family.
Speaker 2:And I think, looking at a program, like we have in Arizona as a model, is really important because it allows all of the kids like there's unlimited or what's the word they use. Universal access, meaning any child in the state can apply for it. So there's like an eligibility, universality there. That's one point. And then there's the where can you take these funds? And I see some states like Iowa, pass ESAs, where it's essentially a voucher. You're only allowed to use them at state accredited private schools, right, so you couldn't purchase a homeschool curriculum, you couldn't go to a micro school or something like that. So then there are all of these little caveats in the law. So just if you're listening to this and you hear like, oh, my state's getting an ESA, hooray, we'll be able to do whatever you know, like what we really want, like you have to go look at the law and understand all of the nuance, because there are a lot of words being thrown around and they don't always mean exactly what they seem to mean.
Speaker 1:Well, and Katie, I forgot that point about school choice. I wasn't including, like you said, open enrollment or charter schools. We have a lot of charter schools around the country at this time here. Interesting though how some people say and you mentioned this we do have school choice, we have public school choice, and, for whatever reason, some people are limited in their definition of school choice. They believe it only should entail a public school. And then I would say there's those who are the true champions of school choice that believe you can go to school anywhere you want, whether it's a public school, open enrollment, charter school or private school.
Speaker 3:Or in my kitchen.
Speaker 1:And we believe in that. We just really believe in our parents. We believe that's what makes America uniquely great as a country is that we're not limiting the choices. And I love the story of the early 80s when, you know, the only way you could really mail a package was through the United States Postal Service and if you wanted to overnight a package, you can do it until FedEx came along Next thing. You know, ups comes along, then DHL and now there's more competition. And then what it did? It forced the United States Postal Service to up their game. So we want school choice across the board, including great public schools to enhance private schools and homeschool parents. We just want to make sure that we ensure the best education in America.
Speaker 3:That's such a good point.
Speaker 3:When I was looking for schools for my oldest when he was going into kindergarten because, coming from Pennsylvania, it's where you live you send your kid to that school, or there's a few Catholic schools or parochial schools to choose from that are really expensive, and whereas here we had all this choice and I think we had like an option of like 12 schools for him to go to kindergarten, I remember, like, why is this so complicated? He's only five. And then I realized, though, even though we had all these choices between charter and public, they were all the same. They were all rows of desks, or maybe there were some few tables, but still hard chairs, fluorescent lighting. It was all still the same environment, but a lot of different choices. So what I love that this movement is doing, especially where we live, is that you have a lot more choice outside of just the brick and mortar. There's so many possibilities on what education can look like, which just really excites me. We're starting to wrap up, but how do you see this impacting kids and the adults that they will become?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so much fun to think about. Well, I think once again, it all begins with education. If you're educated, sky's the limit. You can dream of college or the trade. You can dream of the career that you want to be, whether it's being a doctor or an attorney or starting your own business, but it really comes down to education. So to your question there, I think that's what programs like ACE and other school choice leaders from around the country are doing is we are opening up the floodgates of opportunity for children to flourish in the environment that's right for them and the careers they want to be a part of.
Speaker 1:You'll see behind me these signs. I'm at a really cool school in Denver, colorado, called St John Paul the Great, and it's a brand new Catholic high school. And there's some leaders in our community that wanted more for their children and they invested heavily in launching this new school. And this morning I had a chance to speak to the kids and you could just see much hope and optimism a glimmer in their eyes. They're learning.
Speaker 1:I had a chance to tour classrooms where they're learning Latin and history and math and science and they're speaking publicly and it just gives you hope when you see these children, but the rigor of this school, the discipline of this school. You can see they're growing. They've got a capital campaign right now too. That's a really great thing, because that means this school is serving a community that has been underserved for a period of time or there's not been access to a good school. So school choice is arguably the most beautiful movement in our country, because it opens up the floodgates of opportunity, regardless of what income level you come from. That's it too. It's not a matter of wealthy, middle income or poor families. Every single kid was made with beautiful things and they have great minds. They just need to be in an environment that helps them learn and be the best they can be.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. This is a question we ask all of our guests. Who is someone who has kindled your love of learning, curiosity, motivation or passion?
Speaker 1:and he's one of the most curious learners I've ever met in my life. It doesn't matter what issue and topic we're discussing. He thinks about things differently and he's really taught me to look at issues from a positive perspective and always thinking about the vision of where we can be in the future. And I love Alex. Alex is a great role model in my life. He's been a role model in this movement and he's really been a great mentor to me, and I just really thank Alex for his vision launching this organization but also being a great leader in our country. That's helped us all do so much more to help out kids.
Speaker 2:I love that we like to focus on that question because the whole goal of the Kindled podcast is to help adults that are listening realize that they, every day, when they interact with kids or with each other like you're. You're giving us a great example of a peer. We have the ability to change life trajectories when we interact with people in ways that are uplifting, inspiring, edifying and kind of um, when we, when we can look at a child or a human and really see the greatness inside of them and the vision, like you're talking about, of what the future of this world, or of just one life, can be. So that's why we asked that question and thank you so much for coming on the Kindle podcast. Lastly, how can listeners learn more about your work?
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, katie and Adrian, thank you for the work you're doing. You're broadcasting this message and it's making a difference. The more people hear about it, I think, the better we'll be in this movement. If you want to learn more about ACE scholarships, you can go to our website at acescholarshipsorg, and we would enthusiastically welcome you to join us, because we're making a difference and changing this country. So thanks for your consideration.
Speaker 2:I love that. Thank you so much for coming on. We've learned so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you. That is it for today. We really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Kindle podcast. If you have any questions about any of the things that we talked about, you can always email us at podcast at prendacom. If this episode was helpful to you, please like, subscribe and follow us on social at Prenda Learn. You can also join our Facebook group called the Kindled Collective and subscribe to our weekly newsletter, the Sunday Spark.
Speaker 2:The Kindle podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy for you to start and run an amazing micro school based on all of the principles and ideas that we talk about here on the Kindle podcast. If you want more information about becoming a Prenda guide, go to Prendacom. Thanks for listening and remember to keep kindling.
