KindlED
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED
Episode 45: Authentic Creativity & Living in the What If. A Conversation with Melquea Smith.
This week, Kaity and Adriane chat with Melquea Smith, a New York-based children's book illustrator who is obsessed with children's media. Melquea shares her love of designing black characters for children's books and creating characters that children can relate to, from the curls of their hair to the unique patterns of their clothes.
Melquea also shares the secrets of her craft, her approach to the process of creating authentic black characters in her illustrations, and how she's changing the game by redefining representation in children's literature.
This episode also covers the significant shift towards inclusivity in children's books, the challenges illustrators face in the industry when it comes to depicting black characters, and just how important it is for children to see themselves reflected in the books they read.
Melquea emphasizes the significance of portraying black joy in children's book illustrations, highlighting how crucial this is for fostering a sense of belonging and self-worth among young black readers. Plus, she even gives us some insight into how we can live in the "what if" and embrace our own authentic creativity in our day-to-day lives.
This is an episode you don't want to miss! Tune in now.
ABOUT THE GUEST:
Melquea Smith is a New York based children's book illustrator with an obsession with children’s media. When not illustrating, you can find her watching cartoons and animated movies, learning all about Japan, practicing Spanish with her cat Kilala, and patting her other cat Bumblebee on her super fluffy tummy.
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast:
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
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We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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as little ones. We draw and we doodle as much as we want to, but as we get older I notice a lot of adults who are just like I. Have no idea how to tap into that creativity anymore because I've been taught to monetize what I do. There's nothing wrong with an artist who is a hobbyist or who doesn't want to monetize their work because that just brings some joy.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to the Kindled podcast where we dig into the art and science behind kindling the motivation, curiosity and mental wellbeing of the young humans in our lives.
Speaker 3:Together, we'll discover practical tools and strategies you can use to help kids unlock their full potential and become the strongest version of their future selves.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Kindled podcast everyone. Adrienne, how are you today? I?
Speaker 3:am really good. I just am so excited about this podcast and just to meet a new friend. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. This topic and our guest today is very timely because I'm creating a book list for our Treasure Hunt reading folks, and so I was just going through my children's library which is most of my house and just really gaining an appreciation for how many stinking books I have in my house and how many like really high quality kids books there are. But then also I'm trying to make this list and there's like empty spots where I'm like, oh, like there we really don't have any in this category, or you know. Anyways, I've just been thinking a lot about children's literature and how to help children love learning and to really like hold onto their creativity.
Speaker 2:Where do you store all of these books? They're everywhere. So all of my kids have book baskets and bookshelves, and then in our loft my husband built these long bookshelves that go like the whole length of the room just really long, and so it's just like there's no, like you know how people have bookshelves, and then they'll have like a little statue and like a little picture, like nope, it's just like wall to wall straight books. There's no like cluttery knickknacks on my bookshelves. So that's how we do it.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. We just stayed in Pennsylvania with my in-laws. They have this big you go to the top of their steps and the entire wall is this extremely massive bookshelf. I mean there has to be like thousands of books, I kid you not. At least, maybe at least a thousand on this bookshelf and they're all the spines are color coded. It is so beautiful. And they have four girls and they were having trouble with like losing the books.
Speaker 3:And so, right before we got there, they created this library checkout system and my son, who is very, you know, rigid, follows the rules, and so he, every single time he got a book, cause he read so many books while we were there he's like this is amazing, they have a library in their house and I have to check it out. And so my youngest grabbed a book. We were getting ready to go somewhere a couple hours, you know, an hour away, and the um Nolan was like you didn't check out your book, Like was so freaked out that he did not check out his book. I was like I will text you and Jamie and let her know we checked the book out. So do you have a checkout system or we don't, but for for Christmas I got um an embosser.
Speaker 2:Have you seen this? It's like a little embossing stamp that it says like from the library of blah blah, blah blah, and so my kids have been stamping the front page of all of our books. So then if we lend them out or anything, it's so just like writing your name in it. It's just like so classy. So I'm really excited about our book embosser. It's a great gift. You can get them on Etsy. Uh, they'll. You can like design it yourself and, like you know, put your name in there or whatever. It's very fun so books so fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're running out of where to put books in my house, so we just do a lot of library books and then I get rid of them every two weeks because I just have no space. But maybe we'll figure out somewhere we can put more bookshelves, okay, so let's get to our guest today. So Melquia Smith is a New York based children's book illustrator with an obsession with children's media. When not illustrating, you can find her watching cartoons and animated movies, learning all about Japan, practicing Spanish with her cat and patting her other cat, bumblebee, on her super fluffy tummy. Cannot wait to meet Melquia. That's got to be the best intro we've ever had so funny.
Speaker 3:Her super fluffy tummy Very fun. Okay, let's talk to Melquia. Melquia, welcome to the Kindled podcast. We are so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting, I know I'm super excited to dive into your work and get to know you. So can you start off by just telling us a little bit about your background and what is your? Why, Like why, do you do this work in the world so?
Speaker 1:hello listeners. My name is Melquia. I'm a children's book illustrator. My why, oh goodness, I feel like a generic illustrator by saying I drew and I drawn as long as I've had a pencil in my hand, and I definitely did, but I kept with it and this was just something that has been a part of me, a part of my heart, my passion, career. I've realized that illustrating illustrating books and illustrating kids has definitely been something that just allows for other kids to be able to see themselves and to feel a little less alone in this weird world.
Speaker 3:I love that so much, so do you do this full time, so I do not do this full time.
Speaker 1:I do have a nine to five, which allows me to be able to use my analytical brain, and I also illustrate picture books on the side, so that allows me to use my creative side of my brain too.
Speaker 2:I love that you found like a balanced life for both like aspects of your person. You know that's really inspiring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's super important because I've been a contrarian when I say when folks say that. I've been a contrarian when I say when, when folks say that, like you know, you find the one job or the one thing that gives you all of your warm and fuzzies and it's like, well, I can get that. I can get that from many other aspects of my life. So I try to be really intentional with how I build my life and my career, which is which is really really much of a blessing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's huge. I mean, that's such a good lesson for us to take as adults. And also like when we're asking kids like what do you want to be when you grow up? Or like helping kids kind of way. Find a little bit really illustrating that it doesn't. Oh, illustrating, see what I did there Illustrating that it doesn't just have to be one thing and it can be multiple things and you can have lots of like a very rich, like, lots of passions and lots of interests. It's not just like pick a thing that you are, you know that now defines you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think the crazy thing about that too is that like we might decide the one thing, the one and only thing, but we can always change it too. So pivoting is super. Just such an important skill to learn as well when you're, when you're a tiny one, especially as you grow up yeah, how was that experience for you as a child was?
Speaker 3:you were your parents supportive of your art and you said you always had like a pencil in your hand. I listened to another interview that you did and you said you know you had an aunt that would give you paper and different like art things, and so it's like I would love to talk a little bit about that and like the support system. And did you have the same support system with your peers and how? What did that look like?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yes, so my, I drove my mom crazy with pens and papers and everything strewn across the floor and thank goodness I didn't draw the walls because it just it was just something in me that I just needed to create and I was inspired by so many things, and so my dad used to bring paper home from from work.
Speaker 1:My aunt used to give me these, these like acrylic sculptures that you can paint Like. They're just like unfinished acrylic sculptures that you can paint, that you can paint with just paint, and it was just a great way to have, like, my creative outlet, just to have a way to have a creative outlet. And so I would say definitely my parents and my family was super duper supportive with my illustration career, with the work that I've done, with the drawings that I did, my peers also. You know, when you're known as the artist and you have a class project and all the kids turn to you in the classroom where they're like there's a visual aspect of this thing, make sure that you bring your crayons and your colored pencils, and everyone turns to you and you're like oh OK, I guess I'm popular for a second, that's so cute.
Speaker 2:Why do you think? Why do you think some kids are not supported in their artistic inclinations? You know, I have a daughter who got a fortune in a fortune cookie when she was like three. That said, you have artistic talents, or something like that, and she kept that in, she keeps it in her special box and she practices her art every day and I'm like as a parent, I'm like okay, like is she going to be an artist? And this helps me to see like you can be many different things and also have artistic talent. And, um, I think maybe when we were growing up there weren't a lot of really strong careers in like illustration or something like that. But now everyone like I do a lot of hiring for Prenda and like everyone I want to hire has to have this like aesthetic, like the world is so visual now, and so I feel like it is like the day of the artist, almost like in this generation. Would you, I mean, agree with that or what's? What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1:That makes me so happy to hear. Oh my gosh Like I, just that makes me so happy to hear. Oh my gosh like I, just that makes me so happy. Oh, it just gives me chills.
Speaker 1:I, I think that you know, way back when, there used to be this notion of the starving artist and the fact that artists could never make it, but they're even in history you can see that there are a lot of folks who had their art careers and had careers and had folks that were supportive financially of their work for decades. And I think that it's definitely different now. Because of this fast-paced world, because of so much that's going on in terms of visuals and how much we, how folks, need visuals, I think that there's always going to be that little corner and that little carve out for artists who, like me, who just have that innate sense of just, oh, this is aesthetically pleasing. Or, oh, I love that shade of green.
Speaker 1:Or, oh, your brand is this. Your brand just feels like this color. Let's, let's explore that more. And I feel like the creative side of things. Even if your daughter is not a visual artist, there's something, there's something creative about just I feel like everything that we as humans do, even if you're an accountant. There's creativity in that there's creativity in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about creativity for a minute, because I think creativity is inherently linked to joy and if you look at like the mental health statistics of both adults and like our teens, it's like there is not a lot of joy. I was just reading something that said 60% of teenage girls frequently feel sad and hopeless. It's just like girls frequently feel sad and hopeless. It's just like, oh my gosh, that's a lot of them Like 60%. That is crazy. And so I want to talk about creativity and joy and how you experience that and what it like, literally. What does it feel like?
Speaker 2:I don't. I I don't perceive myself as a very creative person, and maybe that was like a label that was given to me early on. You know, like, oh, I'm like not. Kind of the same way we say I'm not a math person, like I'm not artistic or I'm not creative, I think I kind of like got that label early and started identifying as like a non-creative, and so I just like riff on that for a minute. What does creativity feel like to you, where? How do you find joy in it?
Speaker 1:Oh man, Okay, so I like. So you, our listeners may not see me, however our hosts will, and I always look out the window. I have a window right in front of me and I always I just noticed the little things like, for example, just the fact that the weather is changing it's been winter, it's turning into spring and the, the green of the grass is just a lot more vibrant than the brown, patchy, greenish, darkish, muddy color that our green, that our grass was before. I noticed little pops of like yellow daffodils and just like yellow dandelions that are on the ground, and I'm noticing, like our trees that are just having like little bits of little green buds. And and I just noticed that just, and I think that creativity is a little bit of mindfulness, a little bit of just noticing what's around you, just taking a moment and just like noticing color, you know, noticing the color or noticing a smell or a taste or a touch, and then just being able to express that in a way. So I would love, love, love, to work on a springtime illustration, just to kind of reflect, like reflect and also share out just these little minute changes that are happening in the world. And I don't know there's a joy in that, just because, for me, like, creativity is something that it is ingrained in me, but it's something that is just like an unexplainable urge that I have to do something with my hands or something with voice or writing, or something to be as we get older, like when we're little ones, we draw and we doodle and we just continue to draw as much as we want to.
Speaker 1:But as we get older, we either learn either that it's not OK or that there's no use for it, or that there's no time that's actually put in our daily schedules as students or, as we get older, to actually take time to play, to actually take time to play.
Speaker 1:And that's why I noticed a lot of adults who are just like I I'm not creative or they're like I have no idea how to tap into that creativity anymore because I've either been taught to monetize what I do or I want to. Either I monetize what I do or make a business out of it, or it's not useful in my day-to-day life. It becomes work and yes, my illustration work is work, but I enjoy that part of it and I'm okay with that. But there's nothing wrong with an artist who is a hobbyist or who doesn't want to monetize their work because that just brings some joy, and I feel like creativity and joy is a bit of a. It's a practice, definitely a practice, and it's definitely something that we have to stand strong in, because everything wants to tell us that it's not important.
Speaker 3:As you were talking. It reminded me of a quote by Dan Pink. He wrote a whole new mind, why right brainers will rule the Future. But the quote is the future belongs to a very different kind of person with a very different kind of mind creators and empathizers, pattern recognizers which I was hearing you say and meaning makers. So we're taking this ordinary world and making meaning of it, and I just find that really fascinating.
Speaker 3:I wrote a blog post a couple of years ago and it was called the importance of creative kids. I really dive into what creativity even is. I found so many definitions from cognitive science, from psychology, from just you know, webster on Google. So there's, katie, like when you say you're not creative, I think you're one of the most creative humans I know because you have all these amazing ideas. But I think we've linked the word creative and you know being creative to artistic, which isn't necessarily, you know. And then you're talking about with the joy I think for me that is almost alluding to that flow state. When we get to a state of which I can never say his name right, came up with flow, just getting into that flow state where, even if you are getting paid for something, but you're still being intentional and you just like lose yourself into this, into your work, and your work becomes play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why I love painting. I I'm an illustrator and I have to draw and I have to figure out, like, how does the arm work, and is this kid even looking like they're rooted in space, and why does that leg look weird? But I love, I love the painting aspect. I set up my art in a way, that is, you know, I answer all those technical questions of like why does this character look this way, or why does this happen, or how does this, why does this character look this way, or why does this happen, or how does this, how does this manifest in an illustration? I choose my color scheme, I figure out, like all of those nitty gritty details, because once it's painting time, it is, that is the flow state, and that is like that icing on the very delicious cake.
Speaker 2:I love that. Oh, what did you say? You said you were talking about looking out your window and observing the world, and I just thought that that was such a unique view of creativity as like a almost like a mindfulness, like meditation of observation and gratitude for like that, that little color, that little pop you know here and there. And it reminded me of a story that I heard. It's called eyes or no eyes, and it's about this school teacher who's like welcoming these two kids into class after like a summer break or something. And this first kid comes in and he was like how was your walk to school? And he was like, fine, nothing happened.
Speaker 2:And then this other kid comes in and he's like soaking wet and he's got like twigs in his pockets and, um, he's like I've just had the most amazing time getting to school and like I saw this bird and then I followed it into a bog and then I met this man and then he told me all about this you know what he does for work and he's just like had this very like amazing gritty, like cool adventure.
Speaker 2:And then the end of the story is just like they walked along the same road to school and one of them had eyes to see like all of the amazing things that the world had put before him, and the other one was just kind of like closed off to it. And I kind of equate that to living in a state of wonder and creativity and joy, versus like kind of having closed your mind to those things. And I think that it takes some intentional waking up, because our world is so fast paced and kind of encourages and rewards this kind of like blinders on eyes, on the prize, like go, go, go kind of mentality, and to be able to pull yourself out and live in that state of wonder and creativity I think is so important.
Speaker 3:Melquia. I have to ask so, as she's telling that story, as an illustrator, do you start like illustrating, you know? Because I was, I think, in pictures too. So I was just curious as she was saying those words, like what is your process in creating these illustrations?
Speaker 1:I okay. So yes, I definitely was thinking about like the stick that was coming out of the little kid's pocket and the drenched hair and the dirt spots, so that very clean school uniform. But now that school uniform has to be washed and the process of creating my illustrations it can happen. Different avenues, different ways. Sometimes, like it depends on like what I'm creating for. So if I'm creating for a portfolio piece, I try to be a little bit more analytical in the beginning of figuring like, okay, what is my work missing? What do I need to illustrate? Or what do I want to illustrate how do I want to make this happen and execute it? And then I start playing and I doodle on a piece of paper or some scrap paper and I'll make words and I do like words and pictures. At the same time I will sketch things out, figure out what I want to actually show in my illustration work. So sometimes it might just be like a portfolio piece and it's like all right, I want to be able to show a kid indoors that's cooking with their mom, and I could do that. Or I could go further and say, ok, I don't have a lot of taller kids or older kids in my portfolio, so I'll, you know, work on that.
Speaker 1:And then I start thinking backwards like this is what I want. And then how do I get to there? So, a taller kid. Why is that kid taller? Why, you know? Is that kid a teenager? Oh, okay, well, if that kid's a teenager we might want to do like a middle grade cover or a YA cover. Oh, that'd be nice. What kind of a? And this is like, it's like a little mini conversation in my brain of like, it's a stream of consciousness and I think of like, oh, what a magical dragon idea would be really fun. And it's like, oh, but what if the magical dragon was this? And like and I start thinking about that before I even start drawing Sometimes. Sometimes I'll just start drawing things or I'll get inspired by something get inspired by music or color, like outside, or a season it it is.
Speaker 1:There's so many avenues of like how to get started, but then I have to actually make the decision to actually make the work, and then that's when we start getting into the process of illustration, of like, sketching things out, and I feel like that is the moment where decisions start actually happening, when I'm actually drawing. When I'm actually drawing and I'm making decisions oh, what if I draw the? What if I had the characters braids like this? Or if I had the hair like this? Or what if they wear a dress because they want to, or what if you want to? And it's a lot of what if? Questions.
Speaker 2:I was just going to pull that out. You have just said what if? Like a thousand times in that sentence. You have to kind of live in the what if is what I'm getting from this, and we like concrete things and we like to know the quickest way to the right answer is like what our educational system pushes, and so it makes us so uncomfortable sometimes to live in that. What if? And the how might we do, you know, do something specific like that.
Speaker 1:So that's so interesting just kind of ask questions that are not normally asked and to make my own, to literally make my own decisions and make my own definitions of things, Like, like when it was mentioned before of like creativity being linked to just art and I, yes, in my, in my day to day and in my life, like creativity is linked to my art. But creativity is linked to so many other things. It can be linked to the execution of something. It can be linked to the execution of something too.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be thinking about this conversation all day. I'm just going to say that, okay, so I want to understand something that you really focus on. Your work is designing black characters and I want to know what makes you focus on that and like, how do you, how do you approach that?
Speaker 1:So, interestingly enough, I used to be an animal illustrator before I, ever before I even transitioned into working into picture book work, and I quickly realized that, yes, you can absolutely make a career illustrating just animals, but it might be a little helpful if you learned how to draw kids too. And I at the time I was like I do not want to figure out how to draw hands with actual five fingers, like how does this work? I don't understand how to draw people feet, I don't know how to make the heads and like I don't know how to make this look bright, and so I had to take a moment, take a step back and practice how to actually make this work. I heard as I was breaking into the children's book world.
Speaker 1:I heard many Black authors say that a lot of times they're like we don't want animals to replace the kids that we want reflected in our books, and it made me realize that there was a definite, severe lack of representation in the children's book world. There was a lack of nuanced representation, which is something that I like to try to hone in on, where it's not just a Black girl with pigtails. There's a reason why she has her hair the way she is, or the way she does, or there's different ways that characters emote and express themselves in books too, because we're not all a monolith and not every person from one background is a monolith, so I really try to hone in on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and don't you even like change the styles of the hair? I thought found that very fascinating, because black hair is very different than white hair, and so I love that you're really paying attention to those details too. Like on one part of the story she may have her hair in braids and another part of the story it may be more curly. So I love that you're really paying attention to those details as well that I would have never thought of, you know, because I have white hair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, you know one. It's such a creative way to express just these characters and why their hair is this way. I even go so far as to go OK, maybe this, maybe this story happened on like a Sunday and mom did not have time to do this little one's hair, so she's like all right, let's do hair, let's do a head wrap, like, or you know just. And I think about all of these like little mini stories that are happening in the main story of the illustration or in the book, and I try to make really deliberate decisions as to why I make this, uh, why I make it happen. And some decisions are really just either it looks good or it feels right, and some decisions are really just either it looks good or it feels right.
Speaker 2:So when you're illustrating a children's book, I assume you get like the text first of the book and then does the author give you guidance on like I want this many pictures or like how does it? How does that work? How do you transfer like a manuscript? I was wondering about that too.
Speaker 3:Do they have? Yeah, do they have any say and like what you create or it's? They hand off the script to you or manuscript. Is that what you call it To you and then you just do what you want or how does? Yeah, what does that process look like?
Speaker 1:So so we've got one it's a publisher that reaches out to the illustrator, and then one is the actual author that reaches out to the illustrator Nine times out of 10.
Speaker 1:For the publisher it's a traditionally published book. This is when it goes through like a publishing house and there's all different teams and there's potentially a marketing team and PR and all this other good stuff. And then there's the other side, which is a self-published or indie published books as well, and mostly, at least in my experience, I've worked with a publisher who was also the author of the book and she had a small team. So there's two different ways. For the publisher side, I work with an art director and the art director is a person that kind of speaks art to me and then speaks business to the rest of the other team, so they're like a translator and they're able to distill like multiple rows of feedback and things from different people and I'm able to just have a conversation with just the art director and we work together to make the book work. So sometimes they'll have a idea or some things to kind of give me the guidelines or the North Star into what they want and, depending on what's going on, depending on, like the actual element of the story. So, for example, if the author is like, no, I need a black character here, I want a black Muslim character here, that is something that's a non-negotiable and I honor that, of course. If it's something small, like I don't know, the dog needs to have a spot on its back. You know, it's just something and it's not a part of the story. That might not make it into the book. It may, because it might be fun. It may not, it just depends, but that's usually what happens. I tend to work with the art director and then the author actually works with their editor and makes everything all nice and pristine. So I work with a completely edited, completed manuscript and I'm able to just work alongside the art director and it starts for and then for the author side of things. The author and I will work together to just like make sure that the vision of the story is expressed in the best way possible.
Speaker 1:There may be some things that the author usually ideally would allow me to stretch my creative wings and allow me to be able to illustrate the book in a way that I'm envisioning it in my head. I tend to read I read the manuscript, but also read between the lines and figure out why did that author choose that word, or why is this a picture word that's popping up in my head, or you know, and there are some things that I'd love to be able to express through there. And then the entirety like for both sides is it starts with thumbnails, really crude, stick, figure-y characters just trying to get the composition of like, where does this character stand? What is this over here? Why is this this? There's this triangle. Oh, that triangle is a house.
Speaker 1:And then we start getting a little bit more in detail, sketching things out, making more decisions on the characters, and as we keep going through each round of illustration, it gets a little bit more detailed, a little bit more detailed, a little bit more detailed, and during that time also, I'll be working on the character design. So, for example, let's say, for Biggest Gift of All, there was five characters, so all five kids I had to design at the same time and figure out the main character, her best friend and the three other friends that were also in the book project. And then, for the time machine, we had our two main characters, main character's mother and the main character's brother, and just designing all of them, just to make sure that they all look cohesive. And then, after that, inking, making those decisions of like what? The structural integrity of these illustrations that allows me to see, like, how are the eyes shaped? Like all of these different things.
Speaker 1:Color, figuring out the color throughout the book, if there's any repeating color palettes through the book, or if there's, if I want to like the time machine had a very limited color palette, even though it's so vibrant, and the biggest gift of all was just rainbows, just rainbows on rainbows. It was fantastic, I loved it. And then in painting which is my favorite favorite part just adding texture, adding detail, little elements throughout the illustrations. That's all that. That's kind of distilled in a way that that's pretty much the distilled version, and that distilled version can take between six months or 12 months.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's so much work. So something I'm hearing as you going back to like just do her braids look like this, does she have a hair wrap? Like and really doing a lot of. You're doing a lot of word world building. That's not actually in the text, right. Like, when you read a novel, there's enough text for you to really be able to like, use words to build the pictures. But in children's literature, like, the text is pretty minimal and then a lot of that story and the meaning, sometimes even like the crux of the whole story you actually get by looking at the picture, right. So, being a part of that vision and that storytelling, I think it's powerful and I want to understand more about, like, what were you seeing when you decided to focus on, like, illustrating black characters specifically, what were you seeing in children's literature that was really missing? What did you want to bring to the industry?
Speaker 1:So not only do we see, don't we don't see a lot of black kids and picture books, but, if you want to dive a little deeper, we don't see a lot of the intersectionalities of Black kids in children's books, to the shape of their body, to the glasses that they wear, to just the way that they, like I said, the way they express themselves.
Speaker 1:Like in the Time Machine, bailey is a character who's very analytical, who is similar to Ada Twist, while Nia, her best friend, is a total fashionista and the biggest gift of all, tasha, our main main character, is a 1000% goofball, like she sticks goo goo eyes on everything, and her best friend, Sam, is just the sweet, sweet, quiet character. And so I love to be able to to express those, that just that intersectionality and those tiny details and characters. Even if it's not shown in the text, even if you don't read it, you can see it by the way their body language is, or just the choice of clothes that they decided to wear today. You know, these are. Those are just some things I really love to do is just show the really the detail of these characters as whole beings, because that's who we are.
Speaker 3:We're all whole beings as you talk, I can. I love hearing just how well you know these characters and your face just lights up as you think about them and their characteristics. It's just so beautiful because it's almost like a part. You didn't write the words, but it's still. You're really getting to know these characters and you want to make sure that you're representing them. Also, I want to say you know, in the is it the biggest gift of all all the characters are not black, there's other races too, so can we talk a little bit about that too? And, like you know, representing all of the different colors of skin and you said the color palette is really important. So I'd like to talk a little bit more about that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it is so interesting illustrating characters that are not of your background, and there is this inherent fear of doing it wrong and, oh my gosh, that is yep, it exists, it exists for me, it exists for so many people.
Speaker 3:Thank you for calling that out For me.
Speaker 1:It exists for so many people. Thank you for calling that out. Oh my gosh, yes, it happens all the time, and so, even with the Biggest Gift of All, I'll segue super quick into Tasha. Tasha is a Black character, but she's also a disabled Black character. And I am not disabled. I do not identify as being disabled, so I was terrified.
Speaker 1:But our author, who is not black but also is disabled, she was my, she was my rock. I had to lean on her with like a lot of research and a lot of things and just kind of I had to ask her. I was like, okay, so does this look right? Does this look right? How does this work? And she and also the um, the, her entire team is also. They also have different disabilities. So they were able to help me.
Speaker 1:Help me identify certain things that may not look right, or just the way that we illustrate hands for her because of her particular disability, and just so many little details that can crop up and show up, just so many little details that can crop up and show up. So I feel like the first step of like writing or illustrating a character that does not have like a background of yours is just doing it with care, with empathy and with love, because that's really. That's really the start of it and even if you do get it wrong, it's not. I don't think it's the end of the world. I do think that it is something that is just important to just start off with the basis of care and love, and then a ton of research, like a bunch of research, and then, literally, for me, I love to just say, okay, what are the stereotypes I know?
Speaker 3:And just literally list that down, oh, and the biases, and then I just and the biases, yeah, oh, and the biases.
Speaker 1:And then I just and I veer complete 180. I try to veer complete 180 from it and it's and I'm pretty sure there are some things that may crop up still, but it's always good to have an extra pair of eyes on your work, or, you know, or, if you're a writer, having having a sensitivity readers, if you're an illustrator, have other people look at your work too, because there are some things that I might not even know completely that somebody brings up and I'm like, oh, ooh, thank you for that. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and just kind of just adjust or tweak or figure this one out. So, yeah, there is a little bit of fear, but there's also a little bit of just research, seeing and also seeing what other people of that background had like, how they have illustrated or have written characters that share the same background of the character that you're also working on too. So that's super helpful.
Speaker 3:What a beautiful opportunity to open the dialogue, to talk about these things. And you said that the author is not black, and so I'm curious does she lean on other people and like her research? So it's happening both ways. It's not just you're having to do this research, but the process is really fascinating to me, and I love that you use the word care, like I do this with care. And then you added empathy and love. I love all those things too, but that care word really just struck me right here. I love that so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah. So she leaned on me with for the main crux of the story. We originally I, we had a for the biggest gift. We there was like a thought of like do you think that because Tasha's Black and the gift that she wanted to give was not enough, is there like, do you think it'll be misconstrued as a financial element? And I was like, and then we started and we thought about it and we're it was working back and forth with it and just trying to figure this out. And then for my research, I ended up giving her like a ton of research with like movies that I saw and uh videos that I, videos that I came across, and creators, uh who also who also had uh, just different aspects of just what I needed to research. And we talked about it and we were able to just like come up with this and just like show, just to show like a different version of like what, like to show a better version of what it could be.
Speaker 1:So, for example, originally when I was doing the sketches for Tasha's like initial character design, I had her in a manual wheelchair and Luda, my author, was like you know, I see a lot of characters with that manual wheelchair. She's like why can't we just have a powered wheelchair? And I'm like you know, why can't we? And so a lot of it is really just seeing what is lacking or seeing what the stereotype is and then just subverting it and it seems super simple, but it works. A lot of times it's like why does the little girl always have to have the two puffs in her hair? Why can't she have a little braid or some braids or this or that? And then just see that and just like, hmm, I think we're going to subvert this or do something different, and I love see that and just like, hmm, I think we're going to subvert this or do something different, and I love doing that.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. Can you talk a little bit about the concept of depicting black joy?
Speaker 1:I just think it's fun, I think it's awesome. I love I know that this world is scary and it is weird, know that this world is scary and it is weird, and there's just so much that there's just so much that goes on into this really complicated world and I feel like, just using the time, using my skills and using you know, my, my passion to be able to share joy, uh, with people, and it just allows it, just lets this world be just a little bit more palatable yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:So I recently. So I'm an adventure Kate in our literacy curriculum that we built for Prenda, so I'm like there's a hundred videos of me dressed up as adventure Kate in like a jungle vest, like teaching kids how to read, and so I'm I'm building a, a reading list for parents, you know, and I've been trying to build this reading list in a diverse and sensitive way and like to do it with great care, and I've had a really hard time finding books with black characters that depict black joy and just like black life. You know, like not. It's like I feel like every book where the protagonist is black is about race, and I'm like I don't necessarily need the book to be about race, I just want it to be about a child, you know, and so I would love to get your recommended reads around depicting black Joyce and include them on on our list. So absolutely.
Speaker 1:I've been working on because I'm in this children's book world and because I'm in the black children's book world too, I am aware of not only my peers who are authors and illustrators that are making these books that are coming out. I of it because it's it's so interesting how it is the time to find these books. It's so easy, yet it's still very difficult. Like we're in this weird like middle range, and especially in the publishing industry too, where it's exactly okay.
Speaker 1:I don't want another character about a big kid who's dealing with their weight. I just want to. I just want a story about a character that just happens to be big, that's it. They are doing something else and cause we we have there is an importance to those stories, and yet we still have so much more that we can expand upon too. So I even in my own manuscript wishlist when I'm working with publishers, um, I have like literally a. I would love to work on books that depict black characters but that don't always have to center on race or depict bigger characters where their size doesn't have to be the main part of the story. And you know, just to show that, like it's, I don't need a monolith, I don't need a, and then she learned how to love her hair. And, yes, we still need those books, but I also want I also want a lovely, fresh spin on it too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what I'm hearing is it's really important for kids to see themselves and that representation we had on Audrey Wish from Curious Cardinals. She helps mentors get matched with kids and they, you know, can pick any kind of topic that it's like they could do academics, they could do like a passion project, and she said that one of their core values is representation matters. And that's what I'm hearing in your work too, because there are, you know, bigger kids, smaller kids, you know dark kids, light kids, like you know, all the different shades and that just are. And yet, why, why do you think? I'm super curious that we have to put the spotlight on these things? That has to be about that thing, versus just letting us be. Do you think it's just a cultural thing or do you? I don't know. I did not prepare you on this question, but as I was talking, I was like I'm super curious and you being in this world, I'm just wondering if you're seeing that.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so interesting. I wonder. That's a good question, because I don't know. However, I have an idea, maybe. So if an industry as large as publishing let's they decide. Oh no, we only have so many books that feature black characters.
Speaker 1:We've got to make a change. What's the easiest way to do it? The easiest way to do it maybe might be a didactic experience of a character that's dealing with something, something, and this isn't and I don't say didactic in a way that's, uh, not necessarily cynical or mean or just like making fun of, but it's. It's like. It's the easy. It's the easy start to changing this giant ship that's an industry, um, and then we start moving into, uh, stories that just happen to have these characters, you know. Then we start moving into it.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's every change of like. It's almost like an introductory phase of a, of an identity. You know, I'm pretty sure we have those, those books that talk about, you know, why this person is the way they are, or why this character has the skin that they do, or or why people have these sorts of things. And then it's just we're starting to feel that shift of just these characters going on adventures and doing these things and and making friends with dragons and all of these sorts of things that, uh, that are just normal and like normalized too. So I feel like it is like the industry shift, a very long industry shift, and then actually, then it's actually just these characters are just, are and they just be.
Speaker 1:But I'm seeing it happen in both middle grade and YA. I'm seeing, and especially as we have more authors of those backgrounds too and creators of those backgrounds, we also are like yeah, no, but we don't need the, we don't need, like, an actual introductory phase of this thing. We don't need to have a book that explains it, because one it may not necessarily be for that particular audience, it's for this particular audience, and this particular audience doesn't actually need explanation because they live it. So there's, there's, there's so many different things I'm so curious about that too of like, why do we have that Like? Why? Why does that happen?
Speaker 3:And it could be just a human nature thing, Like Katie keeps talking about too, you know.
Speaker 1:And it could be just a human nature thing like Katie keeps talking about too.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just something that we feel, that you know, and even it's funny, like I grew up with.
Speaker 1:I grew up with books, but I grew up with video games more, but the feeling that those games gave to me too is similar to what I want the feelings of my books to give to little readers too. I want to be able to create these worlds that you can get lost in, that you're able to see there's a safety and the safety of expressing yourself, to know that you are awesome and that you are beautiful, and just being able to like, share that message, the message of love and care to our young readers. And then also the inspiration to draw. I like with books and with illustrators and movies and video games, like I, always there's that, that crafted element like there, if it exists, and it's a piece of art, someone made it, and so that was something that I always was attuned to and I always wanted to just draw after experiencing something that was super inspiring, or create after experiencing something that was super inspiring. So I want that same thing for our young audiences.
Speaker 3:So how do you balance the pursuit of learning and growth with a desire for comfort and consistency?
Speaker 1:Oh, comfort and consistency. I just oh, the same colors, the same composition. It feels so cozy, it's like a chair that's eating you. That's like, ah, stay here and just stay in my cocoon. So I think it. But one of the things that is like I've I had to learn was I had to learn to push myself and my boundaries for my illustration work. So I had to learn how to draw hands. It's not easy.
Speaker 3:And you said feet. It's not easy. And feet, oh and feet. I feel like eyes are hard for me to know where they go.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. And I think the tough part, even if it's a cartoon, it's that humans are humans and that's something that we innately know. So if we sense something is wrong, that's it, it's game over. So I will just take the things that I have to learn and just kind of break it down. So, for example, the illustration portfolio pieces that I'm doing, I will go and say, okay, maybe I can't draw, maybe at this moment it might not be a good idea to draw seven different characters jumping out of a blimp. Oh God, I don't even know what a blimp looks like or how to even draw it. Well, there's an explosion coming out because that's going to be our new middle grade cover. Okay, maybe instead of seven characters, we go for three characters. Maybe, instead of jumping out of a blimp, maybe they're jumping into a pool, and so I just start scaling it down and I start pushing little by little, Currently working on an illustration right now, where these two kids are pressing their face against a um, against a fish tank, and the viewer is looking at the kids head on through the fish tank and smashed, yes, and also my gosh, looking at the kids face.
Speaker 1:Kids face is pressed against glass for a. It is, it is. It is the funniest thing.
Speaker 3:I wish you could do it on here Somehow, all three of us.
Speaker 1:It is the funniest thing, and so that so finding joy in those things that I have to push myself into as well, like just it's. I just have to one because it will limit my career and it will limit, you know, my illustration work, but to it there's also joy. I'm seeing saying, oh yeah, I knocked those hands out of the park. Yeah, look at me.
Speaker 3:So it comes back to joy, which keeps getting brought up in this conversation, which I think is very powerful. I also had a question. You talked about painting, drawing. You know, consider yourself as a painter. I saw on your Instagram that you were doing it on the computer and just all the different tones. So can you talk? We're running out of time, but I would love to talk a little bit about that process too, of how you paint. Do you call it painting Like on the computer? It's not just like with paint on a paintbrush.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, um, so I I call myself a tradigital illustrator. I work traditionally and digitally, but I start Traditional. I love it.
Speaker 3:We're coining that term. You heard it here first.
Speaker 1:Being an illustrator yes, being an illustrator and being an artist and a creative. You're able to just make your own definitions, and I encourage that for everyone. Like why do I have to be in one bottle? Like, why do I have to be in one? Like one square, I want to be an amorphous blob with the way that I access myself, so I don't have to be just one thing or another, I can be both in all and many.
Speaker 1:So so the way that I start, sometimes I'll start sketching on like a random piece of paper, sometimes I'll sketch on a on my tablet, and sometimes I get stuck and so I have to switch the mediums and if I start on my tablet, I'm like, oh, this isn't working, I need to sketch on the piece of paper. And then the piece of paper, I'm like, oh, actually this looks pretty good, but I don't know how to get further from here. So I will take a picture on my phone, upload looks pretty good, but I don't know how to get further from here. So I will take a picture on my phone, upload it to my Dropbox, download it from my Dropbox and then draw on my tablet, and my tablet is basically a portable computer and I'm able to use a stylus pen and draw on the surface of it, and that's how I am able to make my digital illustrations.
Speaker 1:So with all of that, with all of that, it starts off with just like either shape finding, finding shapes, figure out composition, trying to figure out like what feels right, like, do I want this character to be more round and squishy, do I want their parent to be square and boxy, like if this just very fun things that I'm able to express, or if I am inspired by a movie, or like the newest animated movie that came out, or another book, and it's like oh my God, I love this character design, or I love this little cat that's with them and I start building something that is the. I start building something that is inspired by it. So I illustrate digitally, but I'm also able to paint digitally as well, and I don't necessarily have a definition of the word painting. In a sense, I think it just it doesn't. It doesn't matter what medium you use. It just matters that you're able to execute it in the way that you want to.
Speaker 3:Did you go to school for all of this, or did you just learn it vicariously through the world? I'm just super curious, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I ended up going to school for graphic design and website building. So very technical thinking about like, yeah, I can just get a job in graphic design, I'll be fine. But that came back because building my website, designing for my social media, designing for other folks' social media because I work as a virtual assistant for other authors and I'm able to design their social media, like different things on their social media platforms and all sorts of stuff that came back so that's helpful and so that allowed me to learn design. And then illustration was something that first came natural to me, started drawing as a kid and doodling, but as I've gotten older, actually honing in my skills and so traditional school a little bit, but mostly just like finding mentorships and just finding my own way of doing it and my love of drawing your own way of doing it.
Speaker 3:We celebrate that here at Kindle and at Brenda. So here's a question. We ask all of our guests who is someone who has kindled your love of learning, curiosity, motivation or passion? That is such a hard question.
Speaker 1:And there's so many and so many things, but for now we'll dedicate this to my partner, eric. He actually is someone who just loves to learn and is always curious about things, and what he gets home for he's like did you know? I learned this thing on NPR and and I and that is something that is just really cool that I love about him is that he's always learning and always seeking out more information, instead of being in that cozy cocoon of never learning and never growing, which can be so easy to fall into. So that's someone who definitely kindles my my joy of learning and figuring out just new, awesome things about this world too.
Speaker 2:I love that. Thanks so much for sharing that. So how can listeners learn more about your work?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I am on Instagram at pretty kitty paintings and I also have an email list where I share my coloring pages. If you go on prettykittypaintingscom forward slash podcast, you'll be able to download my free coloring page from one of my books the Biggest Gift of All and I also sell my coloring pages on my website as well. So if you like that, then definitely support me on that way too.
Speaker 2:I love that Amazing. I'm definitely going to subscribe to your list so I can get your coloring pages. My daughters are always like print me out and they're like watercolors are so constantly strewn all about our house it's ridiculous in here. So we're going to get those for sure. That's so beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming on the Kindle podcast. I've learned so much from this and seriously I'm going to be thinking about this like living in the what if and trying to like unlabel myself as not creative. So thank you so much for coming today.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Thank you both for giving me the time to just chat with you. This was really fun, thank you.
Speaker 3:It was nice meeting you. That's it for today. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Kindle podcast. If this episode was helpful to you and you enjoyed it as much as us, please like, subscribe and follow us on social at Prenda Learn. If you have a question you'd like for us to address, all you need to do is email us at podcast at Prendacom. You can also join our Facebook group called the Kindle Collective and subscribe to our weekly newsletter, the Sunday Spark. And don't forget to go and rate us and review us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, cause that really helps other people find our podcast the.
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