KindlED
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED
Season 1 Top 10 | #5 Dive Into Inquiry. A Conversation with Trevor MacKenzie.
We're continuing summer break with #5 of our Top 10 Season 1 episodes.
Ever wondered how transforming education from within can ignite a child's natural curiosity? Kaity and Adriane chat with Trevor MacKenzie, an experienced teacher, author, keynote speaker, and inquiry consultant, about this question and more. Trevor shares his journey of reshaping the educational landscape, emphasizing the importance of fostering strong teacher-student relationships and creating psychologically safe learning environments. He reveals how a values-driven, student-focused approach can significantly enhance academic achievement and student agency.
Get inspired by the stories of students transitioning from traditional to inquiry-based learning environments and the role parents play in nurturing a love for learning at home. Trevor discusses the necessity of scaffolding and gradually introducing students to different levels of inquiry to build their agency. With tips on creating psychologically safe spaces and fostering resilience, this episode is a treasure trove for anyone invested in modern education.
Don't miss the chance to learn how to empower children to explore their interests and thrive.
ABOUT THE GUEST:
Trevor MacKenzie is an experienced teacher, author, keynote speaker and inquiry
consultant who has worked in schools throughout Australia, Asia, North America, South Africa, and Europe. He is an inquiry practitioner currently as a teacher with the Greater Victoria School District in Victoria, Canada. He has three publications: Dive into Inquiry, Inquiry Mindset Elementary Edition, and Inquiry Mindset Assessment Edition. He has vast experience supporting schools across several years in implementation strategies in public schools, international schools, and International Baccalaureate programs.
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast:
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
Got a burning question?
We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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Welcome to the Kindled podcast everyone. Adrienne, how's it going today?
Speaker 2:It is great, Katie. It is great. I would like to know what episode we are re-releasing today.
Speaker 1:Aren't you lucky, because I happen to know which one it is and I'm going to tell you right now. It's episode 36. It's called Dive Into Inquiry and this is a conversation we had with Trevor McKenzie. He is one of the world's most leading experts on inquiry-driven education and he is actually from Canada and I was so impressed because he's still a practicing teacher and he also teaches all sorts of things online and does conferences. He's just all over the place and I was so inspired by this conversation because a lot of people and almost a little bit myself included in this.
Speaker 1:It's like so hard to think like we can actually change the education system because people have tried. It's very slow, it's very hard to get things changed there, changed there, and so it's easy to just like walk away and do something different, which in many ways, is like what you know, like what? When we homeschool or when we micro school or when we, you know, when we do something alternative, we're kind of saying like this isn't working and I can't fix it. You know, which is true right now. But Trevor McKenzie is a great example of someone who's like sticking with it and like he's in the system and he's trying to help teachers and like literally change legislation and like the goal of education to really bring it into the 21st century, and I just felt that that was really inspiring and gave me a lot of hope. What about you?
Speaker 2:I loved this episode because I'm not as familiar with inquiry You're extremely familiar with inquiry because you've read his books to be able to create our learning model at Prenda, whereas it was very new to me I mean, the concept wasn't new to me, but how to do it was new to me and I found it very fascinating.
Speaker 2:This can be done in any classroom, traditional or not, in any grade. I thought it was so fascinating and it works so well for the littles because they're already so inquisitive and curious and then by the time they say what fourth grade like, they started to lose creativity and there's lots of research and reasons behind that, and so I loved that. How applicable it could be in the classroom or in homeschool or in anywhere. I've walked into micro schools and just see inquiry walls or the question walls and I just find it so fascinating. The kids are so excited to come and tell me about the questions that they've dove into and you could just see that fire within them, which is what Kindled is all about. So I really, really enjoyed this conversation with Trevor here you go.
Speaker 1:Episode 36, dive into Inquiry a conversation with Trevor McKenzie.
Speaker 3:If there is anyone listening, thinking why curiosity? Once we get our kids curious about their curriculum, when we ask kids their feelings about school, they say all the most beautiful things. School is engaging, school is fun. I like my teacher, I like my peers, I like myself. And you know, parents know this right. Parents know that when their child's curious, right, you just run after them, you follow them wherever they're going to take you, like we've all learned so much about our children through what they find is relevant, important, and I think this is a key move teachers and parents can make is show interests in their interests.
Speaker 1:Hi and welcome to the Kindle podcast where we dig into the art and science behind kindling the motivation, curiosity and mental wellbeing of the young humans in our lives.
Speaker 2:Together, we'll discover practical tools and strategies you can use to help kids unlock their full potential and become the strongest version of their future selves. Welcome to the Kindle podcast. I'm here with Katie. Katie. What's happening today?
Speaker 1:I'm just super excited to talk to one of my favorite authors. Is all.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm super excited too. I haven't read the entire book yet, to be honest. I'm about halfway through and I already want to buy copies for every one of my son's teachers, because they're already set up to do this kind of learning and I think this is just the missing piece, so I cannot wait to get it into their hands. And I can't wait to talk to him today.
Speaker 1:All right. So here's the big reveal we're talking to Trevor McKenzie. He's the author of a book called Dive Into Inquiry and several other books which I will tell you about now in his bio. Trevor McKenzie is an experienced teacher, author, keynote speaker and inquiry consultant who has worked in schools throughout Australia, asia, north America, south Africa and Europe. He's an inquiry practitioner, currently as a teacher with the Greater Victoria School District in Victoria, canada. He has three publications Dive into Inquiry. Inquiry Mindset Elementary Edition. Inquiry Mindset Assessment Edition. He has vast experience supporting schools across several years in implementation strategies in public schools, international schools and international baccalaureate programs. So let's talk to Trevor. Trevor McGenzie, thank you for coming to the Kindle podcast. We're super excited to talk to you today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what an honor. Thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to the chat and I admire both your work, and so I'm looking forward to sharing, but also learning, with you and from you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, All right, so let's jump in. Tell us a bit about your background. How did you come to the work you're doing? What's your big? Why? What's the change you're seeking to make in the world? Just give us the full story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, that's a big one way to open it up. Let's do it Well. So I'm a practicing teacher, so I teach high school here in Victoria, british Columbia, canada. This is my 21st year of teaching and so I teach from an inquiry stance. I have certain values and beliefs that shape the time I have with students, and those values and beliefs show up in the planning and the relationship and the experiences of which we share. And those values and beliefs shape my authorship, they shape my consultancy, my research. I travel the world supporting schools that have adopted similar values, and I support those schools in kind of implementing structures and frameworks and systems to kind of do schooling differently than perhaps we on this call and others that are listening experienced ourselves. And so I have a lot of whys like why this work.
Speaker 3:And you know, actually one of the most fascinating assignments I did as part of my graduate work was an autoethnography, where the assignment was to kind of trace back all of your experiences and schooling and learning experiences, to kind of take you up to your current date, and in doing so checking for biases, looking for shadow spaces, looking for assumptions.
Speaker 3:And in doing that assignment I realized, gosh, I have a lot of whys. There wasn't just one tipping point. There was a series of experiences that I think softened edges and helped me step into classrooms with a certain set of values and beliefs. I think I could list a few students that motivated me. I think I can look back at my early years of teaching and the culture of the school where I was kind of discovering myself as a young educator and how, you know, it was really collaborative, it was really mentorship founded, if you will, and I think slowly over the years I've just become more kind of comfortable in living and breathing and talking about these values and then acting upon them. So I'm sure those values I keep on saying that I'm sure those values are going to come up in our call, because that's kind of what brought us together for this conversation is common values and beliefs around what schooling can look like and sound like and feel like right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and one of the values, or like frameworks, that you are really into supporting is inquiry led learning, which I'd love to dive into right now, but real quick.
Speaker 2:can I ask so do you teach like Monday through Friday, or because I'm just wondering how you're able to be on this call with us.
Speaker 3:Good question. I do teach Monday through Friday. A number of years ago I reduced my teaching time to afternoons only, so right now, as we're recording, it's a morning recording. I'll go in just before lunch and I have two classes this semester, two groups of seniors, and I'll do that teacher thing until four o'clock in the afternoon, and so my consultancy is very much, you know, wrapped around my teaching. Everything I support schools in implementing, everything I write about, is very much classroom focused. You know what's the experience of inquiry? What am I doing with my students? What am I doing with other students? What am I doing with other classrooms and schools that I support? It's very much trying to focus on the practical strategies. The theory is beautiful, but getting away from the theory and towards the practical, so that's kind of how I'm doing. It is a half time. A number of years ago I reduced my teaching load and gosh before I reduced my teaching load. It was a lot of work, a lot of beautiful work, though, work I really, really love doing.
Speaker 2:And I would say that this work is definitely rooted in relationship because maybe we can step back even before we get into inquiry. Led is I love. In your book you talk about how you ask the students what is a good teacher and they like list all the different things you know. Can we talk about like that relationship piece first first and then maybe dive into the inquiry led piece.
Speaker 3:Yeah oh. Relationship, as we know, is pivotal in terms of psychological safety, right, creating inclusivity, and to get to know your students and their strengths and their stretches so we can plan with those in mind. So many schools I support they've adopted some kind of know me before you teach me philosophy and framework where, you know, in the traditional school setting, the principal encourages teachers with a kind hand slap. You know that if I see you doing a traditional lesson I'm going to let you know that's not what we are planning or committed to doing in the first five, six, seven weeks of school. And that doesn't mean assignments don't happen, you know. That doesn't mean learning doesn't happen. It just means everything is wrapped around, those notions of getting to know our students, them getting to know each other and them getting to know themselves. And you know, when we see schools engage in that kind of work to kick off a year, we actually hear from parents and students. We want more of that, like once that's over, it was such a drastic change, like why can't that just be the way that we live and breathe in our schooling time together? So you know, psychological safety, inclusivity, but also teachers planning around, what they discover, as they listen as they ask and they listen.
Speaker 3:I think that's a distinction we'd like to make is relationships are great. However, what we learn needs to shape our time with scholars and our time in school and that's something I support schools in doing is what do we know of our scholars and how could we leverage that to plan learning experiences ongoingly? We could have a whole podcast about the power of relationship. To be honest, we could look at case studies where there's strong relationship and poor relationship, and academic achievement, belonging, wellness. Students feel more healthy when they are in a classroom where they are seen and honored by the teacher, so it's not rocket science. However, when we talk about some of those values, that has to be one of them. We value relationship-driven learning.
Speaker 1:How have you seen that kind of shift happen in the traditional classroom Because I mean traditional classrooms and public-funded education is a wonderful boon to society but it kind of is, it seems, like at odds to creating that space and using those educational, like instructional minutes, if you will, for that purpose. So how have you seen schools overcome that and kind of turn the corner on this culture?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, from personal experience, I think I I butt my head up against the wall for too many years trying to do too much right Like cover the curriculum, and there is no deep learning or meaningful, authentic learning if it didn't center the student first, and I learned that early in my career. So thankfully I didn't butt my head up against the wall for too long. But personally, you know, I really looked at where are the students taking me through the curriculum? Where are they taking me through the standards? How is the curriculum something for us to uncover and discover rather than cover that's a bit of a cliche, but that is really something that we embrace is that the curriculum is malleable. We can sculpt it together.
Speaker 3:So, personally, that was a shift I made. It was a mindset shift. And then what I've found in my practice is that we utilize structures where, if we spend time differently, we get a different return on investment. Looking at the curriculum with my scholars as something that we explore, we get curious, we find relevant contextual ties to the curriculum. I end up getting a whole bunch of outcomes that I couldn't have gotten any other way.
Speaker 3:You know, I get that wellness piece, I get that agency piece, that engagement piece, but then I actually get products students are proud of creating right. I get writing that is more strong. It's a better sample of writing because students actually see the point of what they're writing about and why they're writing it. I think that's a clear shift that I encourage schools to engage in is we're going to do things differently but we're going to get different outcomes right. We're going to get more outcomes, more return on investment. I work with school districts who have gotten to a place where they bang their head up against the wall for long enough that they're willing to help teachers make that shift. Which is, I think, a really big piece of the conversation is how schools and districts have committed to certain values to support teachers in teaching differently.
Speaker 1:I think in general, we've kind of fallen into this trap of and this happens early as we're parenting young children like I'm bigger than you and I need you to be quiet and obedient, and so I need you to kind of fit into this box and I'm gonna kind of scaffold your behavior and all of your actions. And then, when we get kids down the line, we're like why aren't you curious? It's like where's the stress? It's like, well, we've kind of been shooting herself in the foot here for the last decade. Like we get kids into fifth, sixth grade when they're 10, 11. So how have you seen? Like how, how do you coach teachers to maintain that curiosity, like through those younger years? You know? Like we don't. We don't have anyone complaining about toddlers and four-year-olds like asking two little questions, right, like so talk to me about curiosity and like how you help that flow through.
Speaker 1:And I know you said that you teach high school, but in your book you talk a lot about and I think you, you have a separate book actually talking about the elementary years, don't you? Um, so bring, bring me up through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And can I interject too? And how do we do this with if a teacher has to stick to the curriculum? Cause I love that you said curriculum is malleable, cause I feel like they probably get in this mindset of, oh well, this is what I have to teach and this is how I teach it, but what I'm hearing you say is there's different ways to be able to take that content, that okay, these are the standards, this is what I'm supposed to teach, but then really open it to a whole nother level of possibilities.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I was listening to both of you share and one value was bubbling up, and it was one of those values that we said would likely bubble up in our conversation. And the value here is curiosity, right? So if we're a school that values curiosity, if that's one of our you know handful of values that are going to be foundational to how we teach, then we need to identify specific structures that are aligned with that value. And when I say structures, I'm talking about in our instructional design, like how teachers teach. If we look at an hour lesson, what are the little things we do in a lesson that align with that value? And let's be a little bit pokey here, forgive me what are the structures that misalign with that value? And just as we need great relationship with our students, we need great relationship as a staff, so we can have some hard conversations around. Does that thing that we have done, or always done, or is even part of the culture, it's part of the drinking water here? Is that thing aligned or misaligned to the value? So when we look at things tied to values, we can begin to have some hard conversations. What do we keep and what do we let go of? One of those structures, one of those things we want to see in lesson design is it's called provocation. I know both of you are going to nod your head. Some teachers listening, they're going to understand this word.
Speaker 3:Provocation is a really intentional entry point to learning or something we spiral back to where the intent is. We're trying to get our kids curious ding, ding, ding about the curriculum. So we look at our objectives, we look at our targets and we think how are those localized, how are they something that we can go and grapple with or there's a contextual tie to them. You know, start local to go global, right. And so we look at our curriculum through the lens of relevance and curiosity. This is something I write about. Provocation this is something my next book focuses on is what do we do with student questions once we spark them? Right? But this teacher tool, provocation this is one thing that we train teachers in sharpening and utilizing, because once we get our kids curious about the curriculum, we see a bunch of amazing objectives. So let's just be clear. If there is anyone listening thinking why curiosity, like I don't really value that, I'll tell you why we should value that.
Speaker 3:In schools I support, we survey kids and we hear from them three amazing things. We also look at the hard data around schools. So one thing we ask kids at the end of a year is how curious were you in your studies? On a scale of one to ten, ten out of ten being really curious, one being I could have skipped school and been happier at home, right? When kids say 8, 9, or 10 out of 10, there's an amazing correlation in those classrooms with academic success. So it's not rocket science.
Speaker 3:When we have curious kids, guess what happens to their grades and all those traditional markers, they improve. Number two when we have curious kids, guess what happens to their attendance Another hard data point Kids start coming to school more often and in a more timely manner, right? So no surprises. And number three, when we ask kids their feelings about school, when they're highly curious, they say all the most beautiful things, right? School is engaging, school is fun. I like my teacher, I like my peers, I like myself. So why curiosity? Those are three pretty amazing outcomes. So if we value it, what are we doing to show that value? One thing is provocation.
Speaker 2:This is helping me with my homeschoolers. So I have read so many different ways to homeschool a child and we have kind of an eclectic, but then I landed on Charlotte Mason because he loves to read. However, I really like the self-directed approach, but it's like, okay, I work full time, he works with a private teacher. I can't just like I don't have time for us to just really dive in to allow him to fully be self-directed, so we use a curriculum. However, what you're saying is totally what I'm seeing, though, where the books he's not choosing, but then we're choosing what he's learning outside of what he's reading in these books, and they're all living literature. So it's not textbooks and he doesn't find them boring and it's just opening his world. So it's helping me go okay, it is okay that someone else is choosing the books for him, but then what can we do once we're sparking that curiosity? So that's what I'm hearing that we can use this in the classroom. We can also use this in the homeschool environment and micro school environment as well.
Speaker 3:And you know parents know this right. Parents know that when their child's curious, right, you just run after them, you follow them wherever they're going to take you Like. We've all learned so much about our children through what they find is relevant, important interests, and I think this is a key move teachers and parents can make is show interests in their interests, show interests in their ideas.
Speaker 1:It's like so mind blowing to me that we have to actually have these conversations, cause if I, if we, weren't talking about kids, it's almost like because we, we think kids are like other than us, they're like a different species than us. It's like they're actually very rational people, right, that behave more. I mean, they're not little adults. They're still developing, their brains, are different. But like, of course, if I'm going to want to like engage you, trevor, on something I'm going to want to make it relevant to your life, and like no adult's going to be like, oh yeah, I'd love to sit through eight hours of something that's completely meaningless and important to you, but not me. Like, no adult signs up for that, right and so. And then we're like, why is this kid not engaging? It's like it's.
Speaker 1:It's hilarious to me almost that we're confused at this, that, like, kids are disengaged.
Speaker 1:We see this like all of the data and the engagement cliff, like something like two thirds of of high school seniors are like I get nothing out of school, I'm out.
Speaker 1:Essentially, it's like they're trying to tell us desperately that there's a problem and if, if they were adults, we'd be like they would have rights around, like well, you need to listen to me and like I, you would be like you know, as soon as you're in college, like that person's paying to be there and if they don't want to be there, then you're going to lose money, essentially.
Speaker 1:So we're incentivized in higher education to kind of like take care of that learner and to make things engaging and and things like that, but there isn't like the incentives are switched in publicly funded school. We're actually forced to be there instead of like this is you know that mindset is different, so it doesn't evoke the same amount of care, like we care about our kids, but it's like it just seems like our priority, our value, is compliance and like like covering instead of discovering, and I think a lot of teachers and I know micro school guides just don't feel empowered enough to like step away from that and have the confidence to be in that space and be like actually we're going to do this a little differently. Do you find that? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. We know the importance of literacy and numeracy in terms of predictors of, you know, academic success later on in school. Right, like we can, we can tune into grade one, grade two, grade three and look at those literacy and numeracy scores and then look later on in that scholar's life and schooling experience and make some really strong correlations. If they aren't hitting certain data points early, oh my gosh, they're on a trajectory. Teachers teach, I've got to get those scores up, I've got to get. And a lot of times it's not teachers fault, Right, get those grades up, get those marks up. This is really important.
Speaker 3:And so for teachers to have different tools to get those literacy, numeracy scores up, but in a way in which isn't complacent, isn't passive it's actually the opposite it's active, it's engaging, it's interactive, like one of the easiest shifts we can make in a classroom is to engage in vertical learning, right, Like whiteboard or poster spaces around the room where kids can stand and document and evidence and connect and collaborate Like the most squirrely, you know, vibrating scholar in a classroom.
Speaker 3:You walk into a classroom and they're sitting on their chair like they're on their haunches, like they're about to spring like a frog right and as soon as you get them out of their chair and they're vertical, guess what is revealed Capability. So something I love for parents and teachers and anyone listening to consider is if our students are demonstrating capability, it's likely an us thing and not a them thing. It's likely that our structures aren't revealing capability. It's likely that our structures are actually diminishing capability, and so when we look at those hard structures again, if they're aligned to that value of, for example, curiosity, we end up seeing a lot more capability. So what we do in school matters and how we do it really, really matters, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so we've been talking about inquiry, but can we go back and just have you define inquiry-based learning.
Speaker 1:We know what we're talking about, but for listeners it's like well, what are we even going on about, right?
Speaker 3:now. I appreciate that Well, inquiry's like well, what are we even going on about? Right now? I appreciate that, well, inquiry is a theoretical stance, right, it's a way in which we teach and interact with one another. One another meaning with children, but also with teachers, like adults, caregivers. We're all adopting that theoretical approach to how we interact and what we want to do is engage with one another through what we call co-designing and co-constructing, like we're going to build this ship together. So, no matter what my expertise is and my years of experience teaching, I refuse to put my students in a complacent, passive experience. I just refuse to, even if they're reluctant, right. Even if students are like, just give me the worksheet, I refuse to. We build the learning together. So what do we do? We follow some kind of a process, a cycle, in which, step by step by step, we are essentially co-designing and co-constructing with the curriculum. In a traditional school setting, the curriculum is kind of the blueprint, it's the wallpaper that we're kind of guiding the learning towards. So, teacher as guide versus teacher, as you know, director, you know our role shifts in learning, but essentially we're circling back to co-designing and co-constructing.
Speaker 3:Some of those values I want to lift up. We talked about curiosity earlier. Another value is agency I want to lift up. We talked about curiosity earlier. Another value is agency. We really want students to have more of an active role and responsibility in their learning experiences. Another value is we really value skills and competencies. You know, adrian, you were talking earlier about your child and homeschooling, and gosh, if we want independent, autonomous learners, we need to slowly scaffold these really important skills, whether it's communication, critical thinking, collaboration, even in such cases, organizational skills, right. So another value is competency development, because that is our goal for our students to become more independent and autonomous learners. So that's kind of in a nutshell what inquiry is. Again, I've written three books. You know, I look at this school of thinking here. There are dozens of publications on the topic. For us to scratch at it a little bit, that's essentially where we're going towards.
Speaker 2:And so you start talking about the inquiry cycle. So can you talk about each phase a little more into detail? Can we go a little deeper?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I've got a cheat sheet here and it's funny I have these here because I use these with teachers. I use these with schools. This isn't my inquiry cycle. I didn't design this Again. This work that we're talking about it's decades old. It's nothing new. I think it's making a resurgence in today's educational landscape because of a number of things. We're seeing that, the economical and societal needs that our students face when they leave our schools, and the fact that I think schooling just doesn't work for all of our students. Right, schooling is a place where all of our students don't succeed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I feel like this inquiry-based learning is preparing us more for this ever-changing world. I mean, I just think about when the iPhone came out. My son is only 14 years old and when he was born, the iPad was just becoming a thing, and I was like it is insane to me to think about how much technology has evolved, how much just the world has evolved, and we're constantly changing, so we're still sending kids to school in an environment that prepares them for a world that doesn't exist anymore, and so I feel like this is the magic, or like the. This is the key to helping kids be curious and to be critical thinkers, and we're really preparing them for this ever-changing world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know we're standing on the shoulders of giants, you know, I think of the work of Sir Ken Robinson and how inspiring and motivating his message has been before he passed and and and the notion of we need to do something different to prepare students for a system and experiences that. You know the model was designed for something different years ago and the world is different now. So when we look at the inquiry cycle, there are some phases that clearly identify a process that we're going to follow, that we're going to kind of jump around a bit. The. The first phase is what we call tuning in, and I love that language. Tuning in and tuning in essentially is an invitation for us as a community of learners to begin to kind of narrow our focus into the learning.
Speaker 3:I mentioned provocation earlier. This is where we would introduce a provocation to kind of begin to focus our curiosities towards something we're going to learn about. Right, and from tuning in, questions are going to be generated. That's the objective from a provocation is we want kids to ask a bunch of questions about what? About that direction we are facilitating. We're going In the traditional school setting. That's the entry point into the curricular standards, right, if I can get them asking questions and generating questions about the curriculum. Now I can go places.
Speaker 1:Can you, just as we go, give a little bit like give an example of what a provocation might be, or like what might, what tuning in might sound like?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely Recently, we did a math walk at a school that I support in Tokyo, and this school has iPads. So this is neat, right, but they're not using iPads just to consume information. They're using iPads to put them in the hands of students to drive the learning. So we did a math walk where I coached the teacher to take the scholars outside onto the school grounds and to capture video and photographic evidence of some concepts that they were going to learn about Shapes, angles, geometry, and so the teacher just watched the kids and followed the kids, and kids found the most amazing, beautiful examples of these concepts. Where, in the world directly around them, kids brought in all these photos? This one video is of a spider making a web, and the web is literally flexing into all these different shapes. Right, the teacher brought all this evidence back in. She projected some of it onto the screen.
Speaker 3:That is the first lesson. What's the first thing? They bring a ruler out and measure, the meter stick and measure. It's that, right. She photocopies all those photographs and she staples the thing. That's what they begin learning about is the concept through the lens of the world around us. So some moves there. Yeah, we needed technology, right? Yeah, but what is the move? Empower your students, have a plan and follow them and then bring it back into the classroom. Katie, does that example resonate with you? When we talk about provocation, is that helpful?
Speaker 1:Beautiful, yeah, awesome. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Beautiful. So the next phase is that finding out phase. So once we have some student generated questions, well, guess what we have to do with them? We've got to sort them, we've got to map them out Now we got to explore them and maybe even answer some of them.
Speaker 3:You know, adrian, you mentioned the role of technology in changing what the schooling experience looks like and sounds like and feels like Like, when we think of Google-able questions versus un-Google-able questions. I love that distinction. Right, googleable questions matter. We need those, you know, superficial, surface area questions to get to the deep learning. But gosh, if we're staying at the surface, we're doing our students a disservice, which I think a lot of classrooms tend to do. It's the regurgitative, it's the repetitive. That let me just get it back out, to get the mark.
Speaker 3:One question we love to ask students is who or what or where could guide us in exploring these questions. You know who could help us find answers or information? And, as I said, students have rich experience, story, identity, that I have books and I have resources and I have a library, but when I start with them and I center them, there's that agency, there's that curiosity, there's that relevance. So, part of that sorting out and even going further phase, which is the next phase of the inquiry cycle, is actually co-designing who or what or where could help us explore some of these questions. The next phase is making some conclusions. So, of all the learning that's happened, of all the people and places and things we've learned from, what are some conclusions we can draw, what are some summative pieces, what are some ideas that we can kind of wrap a bow on, and then even what are some things that we need to revisit as we reflect and review what we've done and who we've learned from. Are there any holes that we want to fill? Are there any other questions that we want to spiral back to?
Speaker 3:And then, ideally, we engage in the last phase, which is taking action. Like the learning matters, not because I'm telling you it matters, not because there's a test at the end of the unit, but we want the learning to be relevant enough so that it allows us to take some action. Like maybe we share the learning with a public audience, maybe we have some kind of a showcase, or maybe the learning is something that is so contextually relevant that other people have to hear about it. Right, it creates some kind of communal community shift or change. So that's kind of the inquiry cycle Again. In a nutshell, it's hard to scratch at some of these ideas without really going in depth, but again it's a process in which we follow and we jump around to guide the learning that occurs with our students.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask about conclusion. So how is that presented? Do they write about it? Do they just talk about it? Do they present in front of the classroom, like, what does this look like in a practical sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, a distinction I make is I ask my students. I ask my students questions like if you could show your learning and share your learning in any way, how would you like to show and share your learning? And there are some non negotiables in that conversation. So, for example, I'm an English teacher, so what do I want to engage my students in doing Reading, writing and speaking so I can make some suggestions with students in that non-negotiable space. But gosh, there's actually so much more room for co-design and negotiation. And so when we ask our students those questions, you can see how strength-based that is.
Speaker 3:Students bring their interests, they bring their skills, they bring ideas in which they've been nurturing or really excited about outside of school into the school. I've had students write beautiful pieces, but then I've had students create, you know, virtual reality experiences. I've had students do galleries that we walk through. I've had students engage in showcases and performances. So when we ask our students, what could this look like, we begin to co-design and co-construct. That, adrian, which is a value that we hold near and dear in our practice. Rather than me force everyone to do a poster project, I asked them about their strengths, their stretches, their interests, and we designed from there with some of those non-negotiables in mind.
Speaker 1:So sometimes when I talk to people about inquiry and we talk about student voice and choice and how the students are going to co-create this, they and maybe this comes like it depends on what framing you bring to, like how you see developing humans, but it's almost pessimistic, like if you just let them choose it, they're going to choose something easy and it won't be very rigorous. But what we see at Prenda is that when we involve kids and having an authentic audience, that it just turns the rigor up because suddenly the cognitive load to create how they're going to show, how they're going to demonstrate is now on them and that just does wonders for their ability to plan and execute things that are meaningful and relevant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And as we separate those two between you know, deep learning and sophisticated thinking and rigor from you know, I'm going to eat chocolate cake for dinner every night because I've got choice. Right Underneath that separation, underneath that, there's a culture that teachers are nurturing, that they're constantly reflecting on and being responsive to in the relationships that they're creating with their students. And so what is the culture? It's a culture of, you know, we take great pride in the things that we learn about and the things that we create. You know we create things that are worthwhile and worth our time in building and sharing with others, about kind of creating a culture of excellence. But excellence not in the academic sense, excellence in if we're going to do something, let's take pride in it. And whose pride are we talking about? The student. So we create the conditions for students to have independence, autonomy and to be empowered, and that's a key piece. It just doesn't happen because we give them choice. It happens because it's something that we're constantly reflecting on and nurturing in our time with students.
Speaker 1:Do you think it also has to do with the teacher's stance and internal belief about the capability and like nature of those students? Because if I was a teacher who kind of believed that like nobody wants to do this, no, you know, it was kind of like jaded, almost, like I don't think you could be successful almost in an inquiry based classroom, because you really have to lead with, like your passion and curiosity.
Speaker 3:And do you find that you know there's a reason why two of my publications are called Inquiry Mindset right, that there is a mindset there and part of how I help teachers shift some of that mindset piece is let's look at our values. Right, and rarely do I have teachers say things like those values are crazy. I don't believe in that. They're like I do. I agree with that value. That's amazing. And then there's a gap in if that's the value, how is the value showing up in how I'm teaching? And that's that structure. We call that a how gap. I'm citing the work of Elena Aguilar, a fantastic coach. We call that a how gap. I want that value. I just don't know how to get there.
Speaker 3:That's where we coach some of those specific structures. Things like well, if we value relationship, how do we actually intentionally and mindfully build relationship? It just doesn't happen because we're kind. It happens because of specific things that we plan to do with our students how we create the culture of learning and the community of learning in the first few moments with our students. You know what happens if I give something to my students in the first hour in which I meet them, that sets a tone of which this is going to be a place where I'm passive, he's in control, whereas if the first move I make is honoring, inviting and co-designing, that sets a tone. So we're facing all these little forks in the road in a child's learning and series of learning experiences. When we talk about mindset, katie, it's what are some of those specific things we can help teachers do, not just to shift that mindset but fill that how gap that I was referring to.
Speaker 1:I love that concept and I'm just having this like epiphany right now that, like we talked to a lot of teachers who are a little, they're like there's a very high burnout rate, right, and teachers like it's just a hard job to feel, like you're really winning at because there's so much on your plate sometimes. So in the same way that when there's too much on the plate of a child and they're shut down about math and they're like I just can't, I'm not, you know, like they're not engaging, they don't feel like this motivational hope internally that drives their behavior. I think a lot of teachers are sitting there and what you're pointing out is that this is really a consequence of a how gap. Right, they got into teaching because they wanted to inspire and lift and all of these things and then the system has not shown them how to do that. So now they have a how gap, they're not feeling competent and that competent drives the shutdown, just like it would with a lack of competence in kids.
Speaker 3:I'll draw the curtain back on my own practice. I used to be the teacher that brought all of my marking home with me, right, and I'd lay it out on the dining table and that was my weekend. I knew what I was doing, right, I was going to be marking student work. I'd bring all that stuff back to school and give it all to my students. It wasn't helping my students in their learning, right? They weren't becoming more competent or independent or autonomous. I was working harder than they were and I was burned out because of it. The independence and autonomy that we're fostering it actually not just saves us time outside the bell schedule, it creates wellness for me and wellness for them. Wellness for them because they have an active, meaningful role in their learning.
Speaker 3:I often talk about assessment capable kids, right, I want students to be able to self-assess and peer assess with accuracy and confidence and clarity, and if I value that, I have to bring that into my time with students. I can't be doing that without them on my dining room table over the weekend. So when we talk about burnout, it is that how gap. So how do we assess more actively in class what is worth? Teacher feedback, how do I coach feedback, so my students are giving each other feedback and they're more powerfully collaborating. It is definitely a how gap. So when we begin to fill that how gap, we should see less teacher burnout. Why? Because our students are more autonomous and independent in our time with them.
Speaker 2:What comes up for me is there's so many things that we value of how other adults treat us, but for some reason there's this disconnect of then we I've seen adults then not value with kids because there's this need of control and a sense of control and needing the students to be obedient. But if we can value that with our students, like if an adult can value that with the way they look at a child in the same way that they want someone to treat them, then we won't have burnout.
Speaker 3:What do we mean when we say engagement? When I say engagement, I don't see kids quiet in desks, right, and a lot of teachers do, because engagement means control, it means calm, it means less burnout, right, it means there aren't kids, you know, sitting on their chairs ready to jump out like a frog, right? Engagement doesn't mean quiet, complacent, sitting still and listening to me. Engagement means asking questions, means being interactive, it means being thoughtful and evidence of thought. I got to see it, I got to hear it. They got to be doing it's just not being quiet. So there's a there's a rich definition of engagement, that inquiry teachers embrace. And again, we need to show in our assessment that we're actually teaching towards spaces that honor that engagement. We often say and this is going to hit it right on the head, adrian if we want curious kids, we need curious adults. If we want students to have agency, guess what teachers need to have Agency.
Speaker 3:Oftentimes the systems diminish the reality where those values are actually something teachers aren't experiencing themselves. So why the heck are they going to give that space for students? Why are they going to honor that for students? So when we look at values, schools adopt a little handful of values, right, they co-design those values with teachers. Why are we here? What do we stand for? Curiosity is a value. Then curiosity begins to shape teacher practice and then it shows up in the student's experience. Values matter tremendously in terms of how we do what we do and who we do it with.
Speaker 1:I love that. So if you are currently a teacher or not super familiar with the inquiry mindset or all of these how to's, how can you go from like I have a traditional classroom, how can I move that towards inquiry? And I'm what I'm getting at is I want you to teach us about the different, um, the different types of inquiry structured, guided, open. There's kind of like a spectrum of implementing this that I'd love you to dive into.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So friends, listening, if we can imagine a swimming pool right, a swimming pool from the shallow end to the deep end and, as we know, when we walk into that swimming pool we can feel the depths at our feet until we have to begin swimming and treading water. Right, so we can reflect on that swimming pool analogy. With regards to agency over learning, you know, if we can think about the shallow end being, I really need to take some ownership here as a teacher to coach and model the conditions of which we're going to learn in. I need to introduce my students to co-designing. I need to introduce my students to provocation and why curiosity could lead to learning and how their questions matter. I need to introduce some of those non-negotiables in the shallow end. Right, I need to.
Speaker 3:This is what we call structured inquiry. It's very much teacher-directed and teacher-driven to introduce our students to this type of inquiry and this type of learning, doing schooling differently. But then, as we slowly transition into what we call controlled and then guided, you can imagine deeper ends of the pool. Students begin to take on more ownership and responsibility around different parameters of the learning. They have a lot more choice. They have a lot more room to connect and collaborate with their peers.
Speaker 3:Eventually, if all goes well meaning if students develop certain skills we'll get to the deepest end, which is what we call free inquiry, where essentially students are designing their learning and we're helping them with specific structures and protocols to be successful with that kind of depth of agency. So when we think of inquiry across those four depths it really helps teachers see that inquiry isn't just the deep end right, which I think a lot of teachers believe that to be true. When they think of inquiry they think of endless choice for students and think about the care and time and rehearsing it takes for us to get to the deep end. If we're actually swimming, we need to engage in that intentionality, that care, long-term to get to that depth of agency. There are certain skills, there are certain experiences. So the swimming pool graphic really helps teachers begin to see that scaffolding and that gradual release of responsibility over learning, to embrace what it means to teach from an inquiry stance.
Speaker 2:And if a child has never had agency and then all of a sudden, if you go straight to the deep end, they're just going to look at you like, well, what do I do? That they're so used to being told what to do? I've told this story before, but we had my youngest in a kindergarten classroom. Story before, but we had my youngest in a kindergarten classroom. He and I both only made it three months in the traditional classroom before we moved him to Montessori and we de-schooled a little bit in between, but just in those three months he had already started to learn. I have to wait until the teacher tells me what to do, because when he started in the Montessori environment the first couple of weeks he came home he's like this is horrible. No one's telling me what to do.
Speaker 2:And this is a kid who is extremely independent and it only took three months for that independence to like start to wane in him, just you know, not knowing that he had agency. And this is a five-year-old. So imagine if we have kids that have been in this system all the way until their high school. So I'm curious this teacher I think she was probably going right to the deep end because she learned about inquiry-based learning, learning about this approach to education, and she was a homeschooler herself. But this child came from traditional school. I think he was in seventh grade and she looked at me she's like I don't have to do, he literally just sleeps all day long. He just, you know, eats his chips. He doesn't want to do it like anything. So I was like how do? I'm just curious like what this looks like for students that have never had experienced agency in the classroom before.
Speaker 3:You nailed it in that if we throw our kids into the deep end too fast, too soon, they're going to feel anxious, overwhelmed and uncertain, right and and rightfully so they've. Students have agency, right. What does school do to school? Honor agency or diminish agency, right? So, just like you said with your child, they came into kindergarten, they had it and something happened it diminished, it dimmed, and that's that's not OK. So does school honor agency or diminish it?
Speaker 3:I often encourage teachers to start in the shallow end. Some of our students can be successful in the deep end, right. Why could they be successful right away? Because they probably have certain skills that allow them to feel competent. Competent excuse me, with that level of agency over learning, but that's not equitable. Just because one student has the skills and the other doesn't doesn't mean we all go to the place that the one student has skills. So scaffolding and engaging in that gradual release of responsibility, starting in the shallow end to get to the deep end, it's really, really helpful.
Speaker 3:I work with many schools where you know there's a lot of agency in one classroom and then there's no agency in another classroom and the student goes from a rich agency experience to one where they're complacent and passive. Think about how confusing that is for a student. Think about how uncertain they are. They're kind of like what do I need to be to be successful in this space, right? So what we try to do with schools I support is what's the hallmark of successful inquiry. It's a change of agency over time. Every setting needs to engage in a change of agency over time. I don't care if you get to free inquiry or not, the deep end or not. I do care that there's a change of agency.
Speaker 3:And this language, these values, are showing up in how we're planning learning. We don't want our students to feel overwhelmed. We want them to feel competent and confident. And so how do we do that? We continuously center the student. I think of that young student you were saying he's sleeping all the time, he's eating chips. Well, that's a call to action, right, like tune in. And how can we build learning from where they're at, because they clearly didn't get to the place that we're hoping to. How do we build learning from where they're at first? And that is student-centered learning, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and where does personalization fit in? So, because if one student's ready for the deep end and one is not, so how does that work in a classroom environment?
Speaker 3:Well, one beautiful thing that happens in a classroom such as we're describing is it becomes a community of learners. So our understanding of capability all of a sudden shifts a little bit. You know, I work with some classrooms where it's a grade five classroom and we have students reading and writing and even speaking at a grade one level. Right, how are they supposed to demonstrate capability when they are so below grade level in a traditional lens? Well, if we create a community of learners, that scholar isn't working in isolation, they're working with their peers. They may be sitting with a grade five reader, writer, speaker. There's a care, there's strong relationship, we're learning together. And then our markers of growth should be different. Right, the student who's not at grade level. Wow, their trajectory is shifting and changing, because I'm not measuring them against the other person, I'm measuring them against where they started and where they're getting to. So that community of learners piece it's everything. We all of a sudden see students who in the traditional sense, aren't capable. Guess what they are? They're fully capable when the community of learners is one of which. They're supporting each other.
Speaker 3:Another piece I hold near and dear to my practice is I'm a better teacher because of inquiry. I could personalize and differentiate and coach and work one-on-one, because I'm not trying to teach the 30 kids. I'm relying on their independence and autonomy within certain structures so that if I need to sit down with a particular student for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, I have time and space to do that. I may draw a group of students together and do some coaching with a group. I may create a group over there because they're more capable of independence and autonomy. So my structures that I actually utilize mirror what my students need from me and from one another. Does that make sense? Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and can this work, though, for the littles, because you're working with high schoolers, so hopefully they can sit by themselves. But I'm just wondering, can we?
Speaker 1:talk about that a little bit. Like, on the one hand you have a four-year-old, a five-year-old that hasn't been, like quote unquote schooled or taught to wait, to be passive. They're in full open inquiry mode all the time. Right, they're sensory sneaking, they're just like they're, they're developing those skills. So it's taking a child like that and like maintaining that, like layering on the skills that you'll, that you'll need to. Actually, you know it's like asking questions is good curiosity, but like, can the five-year-old find the answers to his questions? Can he like experience the full inquiry loop? He needs skills to be layered on top of that curiosity right To to progress. Um, but then you have kids who have lost that curiosity. So I just, I'm just interested to see, to hear you go through what this looks like at the younger ages. Maybe we'll just focus there for a minute. Sorry, it's great, it's great, so we'll just focus on that one.
Speaker 3:In a high school setting you know I'm pointing to myself here I may engage in all four of those depths of the pool in kind of like chronological order. Like I may start the year in the shallow end where I'm coaching and modeling and setting the stage for more independence and autonomy ongoingly. And I may need to do that because students have had the curiosity and the agency schooled out of them and slowly will transition through the four types, kind of all together Right. But you know I have elementary colleagues, grade one, kindergarten, they don't need to do that. Like they could do a structured numeracy lesson before recess. After recess they come back in. They're doing guided literacy, you know.
Speaker 3:After lunch they focus on loose parts and play base, which is more free inquiry, so they're able to take those depths to different areas in the learning. Why? Because the students haven't had the agency or the curiosity schooled out of them. So the types of inquiry, it's not a lockstep process, it's a reflective tool for us to be mindful of the agency that we can leverage and the number of or the spaces in which we need to take some more directed, structured decision-making and ownership over guiding the learning I think of. You know, numeracy, for example, at the younger years. That could be very much play-based loose parts or it could be something where I want to coach and model and do something more structured up here and I'm pointing to, like there's a whiteboard or a chalkboard behind me, right, so you know all students are capable.
Speaker 3:I often find the younger years is actually the most fruitful and rich in terms of inquiry practices. Right, like I think of. Kath Murdoch is a colleague out of Australia. She's written, got 18 books, all focusing on the younger years, all focusing on the younger years. To be honest, it's not the younger years, that's where it's not as rich. It begins to happen in the middle years and high school years. And so how could we, you know, curb that and take the right path in the fork on the road in the middle school and high school years it's again it's those structures and protocols that align with the values.
Speaker 1:It's funny that it's so switched. Usually you're like, oh, these older kids are like way more competent, so that they can they can, you know, do all those things where it's like, wow, those younger kids are like they're bringing a competency that has been lost at the at the later year. So it's it's just interesting to like be in a space where there's such a switch. It's fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we want to keep that fire burning. So how can parents lean into inquiry more at home as they interact with their kids? Because I think sometimes we are especially like when I was growing up. It's like I got on a bus, I went to school, it was gone all day long. I came home, so not a whole lot was done at home, it was all just it was the teacher's responsibility, whereas now it's like okay, we're realizing it needs to happen at home and at school. So how can parents, you know, lean into this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, this is going to sound a little direct, but forgive me, but we really need to check our biases at the door. Right, like a lot of work I do with schools isn't just with teachers or with students teaching lessons. Guess who I connect with? I do parent sessions, right, because parents are thinking schooling should be like we had it when we were in school, and when they don't see those traditional markers of success, or those assignments that they expect to have happen, or those test scores Bingo.
Speaker 3:They get worried, they get nervous. Rightfully so, because schooling in the inquiry stance for the most part many parents didn't experience as children. So again, we talked about values and structures. We want to draw the curtain back on what teaching and learning looks like and sounds like and feels like in an inquiry school and an inquiry classroom. So parents have an understanding.
Speaker 3:One amazing structure that we love to utilize is called a learning wall. If you can imagine, it's a portion, some real estate in the classroom where it's like this visible and collaborative portfolio of learning, where teachers and students are evidencing and documenting all the rich little morsels of learning across a span of time. And when parents come into the building for parent teacher night or student led conferences and there's a learning wall in the classroom, it's like a magnet to them. They just can't help but go look. They don't come to the desk to listen to the teacher talk about grades. They want to. And why do they go there? Often Because the scholar says mom, dad, let me show you our learning wall. The student invites the parent to the learning wall and tells them the story, the narrative of their experience through learning. Learning walls didn't really exist when I was in school, like I didn't have innovative teachers who were doing really practical and sensible things like that. So what do I need to do? I need to check my biases at the door.
Speaker 3:Another big piece is what is our really big responsibility as parents? Oh, I'm going to put this on the table. It's to honor our children where they're at, create psychological safety, to create self-aware little people who feel confident and competent right. So, no matter what our wishes and hopes and dreams are for them, those can't squelch those really key foundational components to a child's growth inclusivity, belonging.
Speaker 3:My wife and I often say like we get the worst from our children right when they come home, like they could be little rascals. Why? Because this is the safest place in their lives, this is where there's the most love, this is where they come home from the craziness of the world and they let it all out. And I got to say our kids are pretty amazing, like we don't have a bad. But for parents, listening does not just ground us. Doesn't that just settle us down? If I'm doing my job as a parent, that should happen. They're looking for those parameters of where is the love, where is the inclusivity, where is the belonging in this space and if it happens at home, guess why it's supposed to happen at home, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this idea of a learning wall. Katie, do you?
Speaker 1:have a learning wall in your house. Yeah, we have a question jar that we do. And then we, you know, like just during, like casual, we do a thing called family learning time, where Preda doesn't assign homework. But we have like sectioned off this part of the day for, like, my kids are learning Portuguese, they're working on guitar, they're just, like you know, catching up on school things that for goals that they've set. But we have a question jar too, so sometimes they'll like go out and write a, they'll write a question, put in the question jar and then we'll just take some family do like family research time, love a question jar, like, and bring that into the classroom.
Speaker 3:curiosity jar, you know, invite students to put their curiosities in there, their questions. You know, when I'm alone I pull a few out and pre-read them to make sure I can see where we could go. And then let's get open and let's pull some out and begin exploring together. You know three questions my wife and I ask our children every night at dinner. It's the rose thorn, gratitude, right. What are you thankful for, like, what was a highlight, what was something that was a little bit prickly, a little bit challenging? And what are you grateful for Every night at dinner? Right?
Speaker 3:And it's become customary that we are nurturing reflective little people who could think about their day and in doing so, create some resilience and self awareness, and in doing so we can co-regulate. I got to say self-regulation is like oh, let's start with co-regulation. That's what our job, that we have to engage in as parents, is to help our kiddos figure it out. And my wife is a wizard at co-regulation. I'm not good at that. So I'm looking at my wife like teach me your ways. That's a piece that allows our young people to be successful in school when they can figure out how to co-regulate and then, in turn, slowly over time, self-regulate.
Speaker 2:Yes, so perfect, absolutely. We talk about co-regulation a lot and, yeah, and something that we do is we just have a locker full of just materials and lots of books. I'm constantly ordering books and and whatever my son is learning in school. I'm like, okay, this sounds good, like I just got which Katie um man's search for meaning You've talked about this, right so but I want to read this with my 11 year old because we're learning all about Nazi Germany and I, some of my friends are like you're going to read this with him and I'm like, absolutely, because it's tying in with what you know he's already learning and he's already really interested in it. And and then, like I said, we have these lockers and my kids are just constantly making and creating. And I mean, my house is always a mess, but I have to be okay with that, but it's really exciting because we've made being curious like a superpower in our house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a superpower.
Speaker 2:It really is Okay. We could keep talking, but we are running out of time, so this is a question we ask all of our guests who is someone who has kindled your love of learning, curiosity, motivation or your passion?
Speaker 3:Oh, my mom, right, like my mom used to just ask me, like, what would happen if? Right, like all my fears, all my little anxieties, she would just say what would happen if? And I think back to all the moments where I was like, yeah, what would happen if? Like, let's give it a go. And I love that. That kind of like whatever the tricky is in the situation, that mindset of what would happen if it just creates a perseverant, buoyant little dude and so that I could clearly see that as something that I've taken with me throughout my years is what would happen if I love that.
Speaker 1:Okay, how can listeners learn more about your work?
Speaker 3:You can go to my website, trevor McKenziecom. There's a lot of free stuff there Podcasts such as yours, resources both for parents and teachers and anyone interested in a child's upbringing. You'll find a lot of great stuff. My publications you can find those on global book services providers around the world and I'm very, you know, active on Instagram, twitter, linkedin, all the all the spaces so. But I'd say my website Trevor McKenziecom is a hub for all of that.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Okay, thank you so much for your time today. We have loved our conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you both what a joy.
Speaker 2:That is it for today. We really hope you enjoyed this podcast episode as much as we did, and if this episode was helpful to you, please like, subscribe and follow us on social at Prenda Learn. If you have a question that you would like to ask Katie and me, all you have to do is email podcast at Prendacom. You can also join our Facebook group it's called the Kindled Collective, and subscribe to our weekly newsletter at the Sunday Spark.
Speaker 1:The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy for you to start and run an amazing micro school based on all the things we talk about here on the Kindle podcast. If you want more information about guiding a Prenda micro school, just go to Prendacom no-transcript.
