Pastor to Pastor
The Heart of Pastoring: Embracing Authentic Leadership and Community Support
Ever wondered what it truly means to shepherd a congregation? Join us as Pastor Jason and Pastor Seth pull back the curtain on the realities of pastoring in today's world. From the emotional and physical toll it takes to the profound joy and fulfillment it brings, they offer an honest and heartfelt look into their experiences, especially during the tumultuous year of 2020 when Jason stepped into the role of lead pastor amidst a global pandemic. You'll discover the difference between the perception and reality of pastoral work and gain a deeper appreciation for the honor and responsibility that comes with guiding a community of faith.
Pastors often face immense pressure to emulate successful churches and their charismatic leaders, but Jason and Seth emphasize the importance of authenticity in ministry. Drawing from personal anecdotes, they discuss the dangers of striving to be a "super preacher" and the liberation that comes from embracing one's unique calling. They also share invaluable leadership insights, stressing the need for pastors to take ownership of failures while crediting successes to their teams and to God. Learn how to navigate the balance between practical tasks and maintaining spiritual integrity, ensuring that your ministry remains true to its core mission.
Supporting your pastor goes beyond attending Sunday services. This episode offers practical advice for congregants looking to strengthen their church community. From serving alongside your pastor to fervently praying for their well-being, you'll discover tangible ways to make a positive impact. Pastor Jason and Pastor Seth underscore the collective effort required to sustain a vibrant church, and their tips on continuous learning and leadership transitions provide a roadmap for pastors at any stage of their journey. Tune in for an eye-opening exploration of the pastoral vocation and the shared commitment needed to foster a thriving spiritual home.
Ever wondered what it truly means to shepherd a congregation? Join us as Pastor Jason and Pastor Seth pull back the curtain on the realities of pastoring in today's world. From the emotional and physical toll it takes to the profound joy and fulfillment it brings, they offer an honest and heartfelt look into their experiences, especially during the tumultuous year of 2020 when Jason stepped into the role of lead pastor amidst a global pandemic. You'll discover the difference between the perception and reality of pastoral work and gain a deeper appreciation for the honor and responsibility that comes with guiding a community of faith.
Pastors often face immense pressure to emulate successful churches and their charismatic leaders, but Jason and Seth emphasize the importance of authenticity in ministry. Drawing from personal anecdotes, they discuss the dangers of striving to be a "super preacher" and the liberation that comes from embracing one's unique calling. They also share invaluable leadership insights, stressing the need for pastors to take ownership of failures while crediting successes to their teams and to God. Learn how to navigate the balance between practical tasks and maintaining spiritual integrity, ensuring that your ministry remains true to its core mission.
Supporting your pastor goes beyond attending Sunday services. This episode offers practical advice for congregants looking to strengthen their church community. From serving alongside your pastor to fervently praying for their well-being, you'll discover tangible ways to make a positive impact. Pastor Jason and Pastor Seth underscore the collective effort required to sustain a vibrant church, and their tips on continuous learning and leadership transitions provide a roadmap for pastors at any stage of their journey. Tune in for an eye-opening exploration of the pastoral vocation and the shared commitment needed to foster a thriving spiritual home.
hey, it's another episode of pastor the pastor? Of course I'm pastor jason, and I got with me pastor seth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey. Look guys, we are so happy. You guys keep tuning in every single week to uh hear what we have to say. That's right, in fact. When we don't post, because our schedules are absolutely crazy, when we don't't post, I get messages where's the podcast right? Where's the podcast at? So we're super happy.
Speaker 2:This is blessing you guys they're scratching and it went up.
Speaker 1:I love it got him with him in podcast.
Speaker 1:Right, we're passing a pass that yeah, man, we're so glad that this, uh, that this, this podcast, is blessing you and and feel, you know, we feel like it's drawing people closer to god. It's certainly allowing us to kind of reflect on some things that we say and do, and the content we're providing are absolutely content that I think that we think will grow and help you become better disciples of Jesus Christ. So we're so grateful and so thankful you guys are tuning in for another one. We invite you to share this with other people to subscribe. If you haven't like whatever like, however, you can do, because we absolutely try our hardest to release one every single week, although some weeks, for whatever reason, one reason or another, mostly scheduled we're not able to.
Speaker 2:But we are absolutely excited and happy when we're here. Yeah, we appreciate all the messages and text messages that we get, encouraging us with previous podcasts and stuff. Man, I'm excited for what God's doing and stay tuned. This content is only going to get better.
Speaker 1:That's it. In fact, we've got a great one for today. Pastor, we're going to talk about being a pastor, yeah that's right, and as we begin talking about this, I think we were both kind of smiling and reflecting, because you don't realize until you think back and realize.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:What all being a pastor is like. And it's not that I think it's just different. I think perception and reality are different. It's different for you when you become a pastor and it's different for when you're not the pastor. You're just kind of a part of a pastorate.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you when I first got called into ministry, I couldn't wait to be a lead pastor. And now I'm like maybe you should have kept waiting a little bit longer before you came in.
Speaker 1:Man, sometimes it can absolutely be challenging. I've been in law enforcement for 18, 19 years now and I'm telling you, law enforcement is tough, it is absolutely tough. But to be completely and totally honest with you, I have to say that pastoring is probably and this ain't good English more tougher, More tougher. It's, more tougher. It is absolutely. It's tough man. It is tough dealing with laws black and white, but in law enforcement there's a letter of the law and a spirit of the law, and then being a pastor is just different man, it is harder. It's almost like you want better for other people than they want for themselves at times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like why won't you get me?
Speaker 1:Listen to me.
Speaker 2:Listen to him church.
Speaker 1:You're trying hard to get people to understand what you're trying to show them, but not always the case. Some people are happy being saved and that's really all they want, and I think we're called to more than that and some of that frustration kind of happens. But let's talk about some of the perception and some of the reality of pastoring.
Speaker 2:Well, just to give a little background, first off, I want to say this that, even though what we're going to talk about might sound a little different than what our heart is, I just want to say that pastoring is one of the most rewarding things that I've ever been a part of Now.
Speaker 2:It's hard, it's stressful on your mind, it's weary on your body, but I will say it's the most rewarding thing and it's such an honor to be able to be called by God to shepherd his people. And so just a little bit of background, and then we're going to talk about the perceptions that we had coming into lead pastoring, and then what actually became a reality. Really quick, yeah, for sure. Like a little throat check, you know what.
Speaker 2:I'm saying but you know. So, pastor Jason, let's open it up. How long have you been a lead pastor?
Speaker 1:So I've been a lead pastor since September of 2020. And it's funny because I had a bunch of people reach out to me when I became pastor, congratulating me. You know, when the bishop came up and installed us, and I had a lot of people reach out and say, hey, man, congratulations. But, man, you picked a rough year to be pastor. I mean, if you know anything about 2020, it was the height of COVID and, man, I'm telling you, there were some challenges even the most seasoned pastors were struggling with trying to figure it out, trying to navigate through. So, yeah, I've been the lead pastor here at Crosspoint since September of 2020, as my first pastor. I was associate pastor for three years before that. I've been through Sunday school superintendent, I've been through youth pastor. I've done those different jobs and I've been doing it over the last 12 years. But since.
Speaker 1:September 2020, I've been the actual lead pastor and I'm blessed to be able to pastor the church that really I grew up in. Even though Crosspoint is new in its location, new in its name, it's actually East Longburg, pentecostal 2.0.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's who we are. That's where we came from. We came from East Longburg. We were East Longburg Pentecostal Holiness Church, and I remember standing in the pulpit when I was like four years old, telling everybody I wanted to be a preacher. And then God reminds me of that at times too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you want to give up. Hey, you asked for this Right.
Speaker 1:You asked for this right and I'm like I forgot about it, but no, he absolutely reminds me man, and I am blessed and honored to be pastoring. It's a blessing, it is absolutely a blessing.
Speaker 2:You're a blessing to your people too, man, and I remember you might not remember this, but when y'all were at the old church at East Longborough, pentecostal Holdings, before it came to Crosspoint, y'all hosted a revival. I was early in ministry and I preached one of the revivals. Now, at this time, y'all were recording the sermon and content on DVDs, like on CDs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I, a couple of years ago, went back and watched it and my dad would always tell me, no matter where I preached at, like you're doing, that was a good job.
Speaker 1:like great job and.
Speaker 2:I remember going back and watching that and I was like, oh my Lord, that was awful, that was awful, that was awful, right preaching communication and everything. I went back to my dad I was like, listen, you lied to me, for like five years there's no way this was good. You thought it's good.
Speaker 2:He said, son, you've come a long way, come a long way, but I remember, I remember back in the day that was right, but yeah, so I've been, uh, lead pastoring about 17, 18 months, 2023, 22 we launched reliant church in southern pines and before that we've been student pastors, children pastors, connection pastors and executive pastors. And I'll tell you, none of that compares to what we do now, bro, nothing at all, it's a little different.
Speaker 2:It is a little different, and so let's break down some. You know, we you're right at four years now, I'm almost at two as far as lead pastoring, and we're going to talk about what we've experienced so far. So let's talk about. One of the perceptions that we talked about is that we could, we could pastor everyone.
Speaker 1:Man, look, I thought being pastor. Everybody I talk to is going to be saved. Everybody I talk to is going to become disciples. Everybody I talk to is going to start walking the right life and following Christ and picking up their cross. They're going to be doing all the things, man.
Speaker 2:Follow me as I follow Christ.
Speaker 1:Imitate me Right right, yeah, I thought for sure man. And then you become lead pastor and you get and I don't know these might be misconceptions, it may not be for other people, but for me it was. I thought I could pastor everybody, but I quickly learned that I'm not called to pastor everybody.
Speaker 2:Neither do we want to pastor everybody. Oh, come on, man, come on. We were joking previously that there are certain people that I'm just going to start inviting over to Jason's church instead of to Reliant Church, Like you know what I think he wants to pastor you, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, man, look, you know one of the from around this area where we live at, one of the greatest, to do this job. To do this, I should say not even this job, this calling, because it's not a job. It's a calling Because if you do this for a paycheck, you're in it for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:But one of the greatest ever doing in this area, pastor Belize. He said one time you got to be crazy to want to be a pastor. The amount that you have to do. We'll get into some of that here in a minute. But, man, and he said something else that always stuck with me is I'm not called to pastor everybody. There are some people who are better in other locations and we're joking.
Speaker 1:But honestly, man, if I feel like you come to our church and I don't know where to go I've been to a few and I kind of get a reading on who you are and where God wants you or if I'm able to kind of tell really I think this ministry would probably be wants you, or if I'm able to kind of tell, really I think this ministry would probably be you would probably be more comfortable in this ministry. I am totally 100% okay with sending you and going with you, even to introduce you to the pastor or whatever the case is, to get you planted into a congregation and into a ministry where you can thrive, where you can be planted and you can grow and you can thrive and be a blessing to the community, be a blessing to your family and that church, that faith family. I will gladly walk you over, connect you with that ministry, because my ultimate goal for everyone and I know your heart too is for people to grow, for people to thrive.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I realized that cross point is not everybody's cup of tea. I understand that. Look, we may do things a little differently. Our language, our sound, those things may be different and maybe that doesn't fit you. But I will gladly place you after a conversation where I feel like you should be.
Speaker 2:And what I've learned too, pastor Jason, if you look, just look at the shepherd and his sheep and that's really what a pastor is is a shepherd who is shepherding the flock, god's flock. You know, if you have three fields lined up and every field is separated by fencing and every field has its own sheep with three different shepherds, right, one shepherd can be over here with these sheep, but call the sheep that know his voice. Right, it is every. All sheep have a voice of a shepherd that they're drawn to and that are called to be led by. And so that shepherd, although he's trying to call these sheep, the sheep that are called to him and for him to shepherd, will be the ones that come.
Speaker 2:And that's the analogy that I want us to see is that when you're pastoring, it's not just you. That burden for you to lead everybody is just not realistic. It's not what the people. People are drawn to a voice. They're drawn to a shepherd's voice and you've got to be okay with them not being drawn to yours absolutely. And uh, when you do that, like what we tell our people, um, actually there's a couple that go to our church and a church he grew up to, grew up in has without a pastor. So they've been in our church for a little bit and now they're trying out pastors and so they've missed a couple of weeks and I'm like, listen, I genuinely want you to be where God's called you to be Exactly.
Speaker 2:And if you feel like you need to go back home to your home church, we're going to support you because we want you to be where God's leading you to be and, as pastors, we can understand that that's the healthiest thing you can do for yourself and for the people that, uh, god's calling you to or leading you to lead somewhere else. Right, and so you're right. We're not called to pastor everybody and um, that that's that's for our benefit too.
Speaker 1:To understand that absolutely it's for the sheep's benefit and for pastors benefit and for leaders benefit, um, I think the sooner you realize that, uh, and you know, I think another thing too, and we'll kind of get into the next thing, is that people leaving is your fault, like that's a misconception for pastors.
Speaker 1:You think, because someone leaves, that it's your fault. That's just. That's not reality. There are certain seasons where people come into your ministry. I remember this years ago, god saying to me that people who start with you won't finish with you Like you come into a ministry, sometimes for a season within your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you get what you need in that season and then you carry what you've gotten to another season.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so there may be seasons where you're drawn to a certain ministry. Now, here's what I don't. Here's what I don't. Here's what I'm just very cautious about, though, is I don't believe God is what's the word? Bipolar? Or I don't believe he's schizophrenic. He's not going to say, like I've had people come and say, pastor, I'm called here, god led me here. There's no doubt in my mind I'm supposed to be here next week. Well, nah, I feel like God's called me somewhere else. So was it God calling you? Or was it yourself? Was it your feelings or emotion? But there are. There are people who come into your ministry for seasons, and then there are seasons where it's time for them to move on to wherever God's called them to be.
Speaker 2:And as you mature as a pastor, you realize that One. You're not everybody's cup of tea, but when people leave, it's not always about you and when you make it about you, that's what the ministry. You always carry that burden and it's not. People leave for all types of reasons and you just have to be okay with knowing that God is sending who belongs under your shepherding and he's releasing people who you're no longer being able to steward or they got different seasons in your life. Another one of the things that was a misconception or misunderstanding was the preaching concept.
Speaker 2:Let's break that down a little bit. You know, because I used to watch my favorite preacher, pastor Danny Johnson in Goldsboro, and I'm like you know what Pastoring is just preaching a fire, greeting people, and you wait till next week.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying I can't wait to preach. That's right, especially when you're an associate pastor and you're like I want to preach.
Speaker 2:I want to preach right and then you're like you know all, you see the response and you're like man, that's a great message. And what I'm learning now is that good messages aren't always about a good response, and also, a lack of response doesn't mean it's a terrible message. We talk about this all the time because we can relate where there's weeks where we feel like we have preached our worst sermon and then, after service or a day or two later, we're getting messages like that's the best message ever. Actually, a few weeks ago, I preached one of those sermons that I just felt like I was struggling to communicate or I don't feel like it was hitting the heart of people.
Speaker 2:And one of our members says she's rewatched it three times. It's by far her favorite sermon she's heard at Reliant and they've been there for over a year ever since we launched. And so you know the misconception is preaching has to have a response.
Speaker 1:And that preaching if it doesn't have a response, that it's not good, yeah, but but the truth of the matter is we don't you learn this, and this is this, is this would be great for young pastors, those who are starting off, for those who want to be pastors. You realize that I'm not preaching for a response. I'm preaching for a change. That's right. I'm preaching for a change in people's lives, not for them to respond, because it's oftentimes when you're giving them what they need is when they're the quietest, because now I'd say, hey, we got first aid kits all around the church for them toes when I stomp on them.
Speaker 1:Because the word does that. I believe if you're truly in a ministry that cares about you and who you are, you won't always feel like you're being fed sugar. There's going to be times where you're like you know what man that really challenged. I think true words challenge us most often. If you're in a good ministry, at some point you're going to be challenged and that's what the word does sometimes. But anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll say this too, pastor Jay, if you're preaching for a response, you are tiptoeing into entertainment.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right, yeah, the entertainment.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right, yeah, and if that that what is driving your ego to think that it's a good, you might want to check that thing. Yeah, because that's not why we preach. We preach so the holy spirit can do the work. That's right, um, in people's lives and stuff. So sorry about that, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No no, I'm with you. I was kind of what I was leading into, man, we don't. We don't preach for a response, we preach for a change yeah um, and you're right, the moment we start looking for those responses to, and what it is is affirmation that I'm reaching them right, but that's not our job.
Speaker 1:My job is to preach the gospel. My job is to train, correct rebuke, reprove, like, do all those things that scripture says it does. Sometimes people are going to leave thinking, yeah, happy, and sometimes they're going to leave challenged. But that's a part of preaching the word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know the misconception was, I mean I knew that pastoring had more duties than preaching but I kind of went in thinking that preaching was a big one, of the biggest deals of ministry, of lead pastoring.
Speaker 1:But we have found out that that is the smallest part, and I was so scared because I'm like you know, my concern was being ready to preach a message every single Sunday and knowing early on especially how much prep time it took into going to a sermon man. It took hours and hours and hours the amount of time right that I sowed into a message early on. A little different. Now I've kind of got a better system down. I a message early on. A little different. Now I've kind of got a better system down. I kind of understand things a little better. I know. I think this will be helpful for for young pastors. Um, if you eat all week you don't have to cram.
Speaker 2:That's right and so well, yeah, say that if you eat all week, man, you don't have to cram, right.
Speaker 1:And it's the same thing in learning in school. I mean, if you are waiting and you don't study and all of a sudden, night before a test, you're staying up all night to prepare for the test, right? Uh, it's that same, that same kind of thing. So you've got to be eating every single day to stay healthy. So do you pour from overflow and not from just what you can regurgitate, and so um. So that's helped. But early on I was thinking man, this, this is, this is a lot In order to be able to preach. You think that's pretty much everything.
Speaker 2:Initially, you think that's 90% of what you do as a pastor.
Speaker 1:This is good for everybody. Everybody sees the pastor on Sunday preach, but what they're not there for are all the other things that you do. You see Tim on a Sunday service.
Speaker 2:You see a small percentage of what a pastor really does because here's the truth, here's the reality check that I got is when I'm like, okay, we've launched the church, I get all week the prep. It's gonna be great and then Monday comes and I gotta meet with somebody, and then Wednesday comes and something else happens. So it's not. It's way more than just prepping messages, man, and you're actually doing exactly what pastoring is, just like you said equipping, edifying. This discipleship is shepherding. Sheep get sick. You got to go minister to the sick sheep man.
Speaker 1:I see this same guy in the ER every time I go up there and he sees me and he's like hey pastor, hey pastor, hey pastor. I'm like man, I don't know what it is. They just keep ending up in the ER.
Speaker 2:This week I read a great book. If you're in a ministry, I think it's really wise for you to read it. It's called Smelling Like Sheep. Yeah, I Smell Like Sheep and it's about how your proximity you have to your members See in this growing culture of this celebrity mentality or I'm untouchable mentality pastors are no longer engaging in the sheep because they're doing the opposite of what we're saying, where Sunday sermons are the highlight and the most thing, but really it's the smallest thing to a true pastor.
Speaker 1:Or many pastors are looking for their congregation to pour into them, instead of them pouring into the congregation. Come on somebody. That's what we're called to do. That's what a true shepherd is, a true, a true under shepherd man. We, we are constantly looking to take care of, to build up, to edify, uh, to to take care of, like we are intertwined in their lives yeah and it shows that the fruit shows. I posted earlier something about you know. Uh, you can, you can. It's easy to duplicate gifts, but it's hard to produce fruit.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep. Anyway, I'm sorry, I'll step back.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, let me ask you this have you ever felt pressure to be like Elevation Bro, when?
Speaker 1:I first started, that was the goal. I was like man, oh man. How my perception has changed on churches since September of 2020.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's easy to see a ministry go that big. One of the things that actually kind of contributed to that transition, that started that transition for me, was when you went to a leader conference at Elevation once and you said that. One thing that I thought was pretty cool was Furtick told everybody he says these lights and these things that you see, he's like this is not you, this is not who you're necessarily called to be. He said we're not. I think a lot of churches are now or at one point we're building more of a gymnasium, multi-purpose style gym or facility, and he's like we don't have a gym because that's not who we're called to be. We are called to be who we're called to be and I think what you've got to do as a pastor, as a but you end up becoming a bad version of who you're supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right and you know. It's almost as if you offend the Lord when he's given you things, but you choose to do it somebody else's way.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And God's called you, he's equipped you. I wrote it down like this that every church has its own quarter, and not only are you limiting yourself, but you're actually limiting your reach by trying to become something that you're not or poor imitation of something that you should be. And so, when you think about pastoring and leading a church, this is where it comes in being intimate with God, getting the vision, getting the culture and the heart of the father for the people that you are created to lead, because your church looks different than like, different than mine to lead, because your church looks different than mine, and we believe, I'd say, 99% of everything. Our belief systems are the same, but our methods are different, and so you've got to understand what methods is God giving me to lead this church. That doesn't change the message.
Speaker 1:Right, because we're all in the same body but we may be different members. Yeah, and that's Scripture. I'm not trying uh, some of some of the big churches around here not trying to be like elevation anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm being who god has called us to be here at cross point I would never forget when I was preaching a sermon um, I was a youth pastor, east longbird church of god, and I wanted to be the super preacher. So I had this tdj jensen, franklin and stephen furtick and I wanted to be the super preacher, so I had this TD. Jakes Vincent Franklin and Stephen Furtick.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to take a little bit from all of them and be this super preacher. And I remember preaching a version of TD Jakes' sermon on fear and tweaking it with all these three guys' type of vernacular and communication and in the middle of me preaching I'm talking about like God didn't correct me after or before. But in the middle of preaching, the Holy Spirit, middle of me preaching, I'm gonna talk about like god didn't correct me after or before. But in the middle of preaching the holy spirit says this is not you, yeah. And in the middle of sermon I was like, okay, I need to change my voice, I need to change who I am and be authentic.
Speaker 2:In that moment I began to just I left the notes and began to just preach my heart on the subject. And when you do that, you find out that people respond to the authentic version of you. Right, and that's where it comes to pastoring is you. You've got to take your eyes off of everything else and put them on the lord for how you're to lead the ship that you're driving that's it, you know, and so you know it's.
Speaker 2:It's find your culture, find what god's called you to do and drive it. Drive it home, man absolutely that's what god's gonna bless.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you this Did you think that there would be people, something to handle, everything you would have to deal with?
Speaker 2:Man. But you know, in ministry I had a job and that's the job that I handled.
Speaker 1:When.
Speaker 2:I was a student. I was over a student. When I was kids, I was over kids. But when you leave pastor, it's like you're basically a CEO over everything and you have to have a voice in everything and make sure everything's running, because it falls on you Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Here's the interesting thing about being a pastor is if you're a good leader and I truly believe this if you're a good leader, if you get praise, you give it to other people and you give it to God always. But then if something fails, you take ownership of it and it's going to be. If you fail, it's because you failed. If the ministry fails, it's because you failed, and if it thrives, it's because other people thrived.
Speaker 2:This is exactly what we tell. Our leadership right now is that if your team drops the ball or they fall, you don't blame anybody else but yourself.
Speaker 2:You take that, because you're shepherding a team, you take ownership as a leader and it flows down all the way to the pastor. If my, one of my, one of my staff fail, hey, how can I change how I'm leading them? How can I change the structure? How can I be a better pastor, a better leader? You take that and what I found out, pastor jay is um, I'm not sure if you guys do this, but we we try to model jethro and moses. Where jethro comes, where moses is, these million people and he's answering meetings. He's got to go over here and meet with this group and meet with this group and fix everything.
Speaker 2:And he said what in the world are you doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Look at your marriage Like it doesn't even exist. Your family is nowhere near you anymore. You're so always gone. You're always tending to people's needs. You're the answer to every problem, right, the answer to every problem Find some people who you trust, who are of good reputation, and put them over certain things, and so we do that. Of course, with the church model is that our circle leaders, our staff members, those people they lead, they pastor those people, because if you build the ministry off of you as a pastor, then it's going to crumble.
Speaker 1:Right, we talked about this recently, about the bus model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:If you got hit by a bus tomorrow, would the ministry still?
Speaker 2:go. Would the ministry still go If your?
Speaker 1:answer's no, you need to start making some changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're doing that this Sunday because I won't be there. Oh yeah, and we're going to see how it flows. You know what? I'm would not doubt you doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, if you don't know, online we laugh and we joke, we like to cut up and have a good time, and so we posted on social media recently about each other's photos with each other's members, and we take photos and say, hey, I'm telling these people about Jesus and about Reliant.
Speaker 2:Church.
Speaker 1:I'm telling them about Jesus and Crosspoint. Well, I one-upped you, buddy. Yeah, you did. You got two of my members three of my members. I got about 25 of yours in a photo, in one photo, I'm so much better than you. That's cool, that is what it is.
Speaker 2:That's the truth, though, when it comes to pastoring, it's this misconception that things are going to run itself. But you have to have you are involved in everything, right and one. There are pastors who don't care and they're not going to be involved in everything, but someone who wants healthy culture and wants to see god's vision come to life for the heart of that church, they're going to be involved because they they want to make sure things are stewarded. Well, it's all about stewardship. How are we stewarding what god has entrusted with us? And he hasn't just entrusted you to preach. He's entrusted you with the overall church and the ministry and how it functions, and that includes the business side of this thing too yeah, there's, uh, you know, and.
Speaker 1:but here's the thing too if you only if you're, if you're depending on the size of your church, if you only have one person running the sound and audio and they call out, guess who becomes a sound and audio technician? You right? Or if something goes out, or something, the amount of things you have something, the amount of things you have to understand, the amount of things you have to know, or at least know people who know it, like I don't say you have to know everything, but you end up learning everything.
Speaker 2:The worship leader on one of our Sundays got sick. Yeah, I hadn't played the piano in years. I had to get up there and sing like the best, the simplest songs. Great are you, lord, how songs. Great are you, lord, how great is our god. And um, it was, um, doggone it. I can't remember that other song, but it's really simple all the chords were the same.
Speaker 2:Yep, all the same, gotta step in, uh, but you know that that's what it is with pastoring, and and it's a lot more than you think right now we're purchasing a building, you know it's almost a huge undertaking, a huge now. Now you're running a church, you're running ministry and now on the back end you're trying to meet with contractors flooring paint uh, meeting with realtors trying to get everything down. I mean it's the misconception was that it was preaching right and you led a team and everything else ran itself.
Speaker 2:And it's a lot more than what people think, because they see you in your sunday best and they know when they call you're gonna be there. But beside of that, there's a whole lot of things that go on sunday is like a highlight reel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you find on social media where you say, man, we want to be like that, but what you weren't there is for the other. You know, if there's 24 hours in a day and there's seven days a week, you saw a 30 second clip of all the other time it took to get that clip. That's what you see, but the truth of the matter is there's so much more behind it. This is not even including all the—you have your daily operational stuff that you have to do. You have your—like for us. We do Wednesday night discipleship, all the different ministries, and then we have Sunday morning, you know, worship, sermon, children's church, stuff like that. But then there's also that's the average routine- things very important things.
Speaker 1:They have to be there. They're the staple of who your ministry, of what your ministry is and what you do. But then there's the other things. So like we have a huge AC unit out right now. So I'm dealing with insurance companies, I'm dealing with all these other things. Right, we're not to the point where I have some executive pastor who works full-time, who can just do whatever whenever, right? Like I'm having to have my hand in every one of these things. But we're dealing with that. We're launching Crosspoint Christian Academy.
Speaker 1:We have huge events like the 4th of July is coming up. That's a huge event for our ministry. We've got Vacation Bible School right after that. If you want to do anything out in the community, you have to move, you have to get outside of the normal average routine of ministry itself. So then we're planning for taking over another ministry out in the community. That's going to be happening this fall and we're doing outreach in the fall. So there's so much going on. This has nothing to do with my full-time job. This has nothing to do with my own growth and my own development.
Speaker 1:This has nothing to do with my family's growth and their development. This has nothing to do with my family's growth and their development. This has nothing to do with the rest of that stuff. So it's funny because one of our security team, the leader of our security ministry they have access to the cameras here on the campus and I remember one day he told me he's like man if people only knew how much time you spent with other people and doing other things outside of Sunday, said it would blow their mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you see, we're talking about our, our perception versus reality. When it came into being a pastor, a lead pastor. But you know we're hoping to clear up some perceptions and really see what reality is for a pastor.
Speaker 2:Not because it's a woe, is me mentality yeah but it's that you could see all like a pastor that truly loves you. He's going to, he's involved in all the things we're talking about, loves the church, loves the people there's going to be in them late nights, counseling, all that kind of stuff, and so it's a. It's a lot. It's a lot but again let me reiterate, it is one of the most rewarding things that you can do.
Speaker 2:Taylor and I talk about this all the time because pastoring, I grew up being told in ministry that you know you're 24-7 and you know you've got to wake up at 3 am and fix problems and all this kind of stuff. And me and Taylor we talk about rhythms all the time. Some weeks are heavier than the other and so if you only live your life based off of balance, then on a week that's church heavy, you're coming out of balance. So what we do is create rhythms, and how we do that is we plan our schedules and our weeks so she knows when I got meetings, she knows when I'm going to be late nights, and that way the rhythm is adjustable but it doesn't wreck our family. And if you're in ministry, you really need to put a really big emphasis on creating rhythms so that your church isn't thriving but your marriage and family is, I mean, decreasing drastically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you have to pastor them too.
Speaker 2:Yep, absolutely, and you can't right. So the church is only as healthy as you are, and if you can't lead your family, you can't lead the church. That's the first thing that you should be leading as a pastor and as members. You should want your pastor to lead his family well. You should want them and encourage them to check in on them, make sure their family is good. It's not all about what the pastor can do for you, it's how can you serve the pastor as well so that he can one serve all that? He's trying to serve and steward it really well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it when people come up and say hey, pastor, what can I do for you? Yep, especially on Sunday morning when they see me in here, you know going over or praying or whatever the case is, you know for that. For the pop-in Say hey, Pastor, do you need anything? You good Water, you need me to do something out here, like, is there anything you need? You've got people in place to be able to help you with those things.
Speaker 2:That's right and I want to talk about that in just a minute. But I've got one more perception and reality that I want us to hit is this reality is that I have enough, or I know enough, to get into the leader of church.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was a big reality check.
Speaker 1:That is a big, big reality check.
Speaker 2:It's like I planted, so my story's a little different than yours. Yeah, I planted a church and so it's like I've got to learn graphic design, I've got to learn videography, I've got to learn, uh, marketing, I've got to learn all these things, because right now, it's just me and my wife we started with like 12 people eventually like, uh, I've got to do worship, all this kind of stuff, and you've now you done, even though we started as planning, you still did worship for like a year or so, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for several years Actually, until March of this year, I led worship even before I was lead pastor. Even as associate pastor, I led worship. For a little while, I think man, it all crumbles together.
Speaker 2:Sometime around there.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I've led worship for a while.
Speaker 2:But the reality is this is that we are still learning. Each and every week I'm learning how to pastor people better. I'm actually learning how to communicate to people better and the deeper you go. That's what you put and I think it is so valuable. Pastor Jay said the deeper you go, the more you realize how much you don't know Absolutely, and that's just the truth, man. The more you're in it and the more people that you have coming, it adds more weight more weight that you got to figure out.
Speaker 2:How do I balance this now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you start learning quickly, especially when you have growth, and when you have rapid growth. How do we make ministry scalable? How do we make things scalable so that they're easily duplicatable, so that you can continue ministering to the capacity that you want to minister to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like what needs my attention, like I pray for this all the time. There are certain things that come up and what I've learned now is I actually there's a lot of engagements preaching engagements that I turn down because I'm like this is just not the season for it. Man, we're trying to build something and so there's a lot involved and as you learn, you learn where your values are too, as a pastor for the goals for your church, because what I've learned our first year what our goals were versus what this year goals are they're completely different. Our targets and what we're trying to reach all those things are completely different.
Speaker 2:So it's an ever-evolving learning process based off what God has put in your heart. Because you're kind of like me Every year we pray for what God's word for us, what the mission is for us, like you had a year for sold out, then you had a year for multiply, and it's those things that God's giving us. So it's always a juggling what's next for us? So it's always a juggling what's next for us? And you're learning as God's developing you, because leaders learn, leaders grow in this consistent process. When I first got into ministry, thinking I was ready for lead pastoring. It's like I've seen them do it and I think I could do it better. And then I get in there. It's like you don't know nothing.
Speaker 1:You know zero, yeah, and I think the cool thing, we didn't we didn't inherit some huge ministry um yeah we've learned. I can give you. I can give you tips if you have 10 people.
Speaker 1:I can give you tips if you have 100 yeah like and and I'm not at a thousand or anything like that, like we're not, I don't. I care more about purity than I do, um, than numbers. Yeah, I really care more about having true disciples, people on fire for god, and how we can reach the lost, like that is our goal, man, yeah, is reaching lost, but, but I can help you somewhere in between. There I can help you. There are some people who say they can help you and they really can't help you. I remember one pastor in particular is like if you guys want to grow over 200, and the same pastor, you and the same pastor you know who I'm talking about. He's like you want to grow over 200?. I'm like, who wouldn't? He's like, well, just stop being spiritual. And I'm like, yeah, well, I guess we won't ever grow over 200 then, because I'm not going to sacrifice who God's called us to be and who we are for the sake of a number.
Speaker 2:When I came into Moore County to plant, the pastor is one of the really predominant pastors there in that area. If I say his name, everybody will know who it is. Yeah, I told him that we were coming to plant and I just wanted to let him know we're here, I'd love to do ministry together. He asked about the church. He said you know, for years I couldn't get beyond 200. He said the exact thing you said. I quit focusing on the spiritual side of the Holy Spirit, moving in services and I went much a more condensed version of that and they grew and to me I'm like how do you have, how do you do that? How do you have church? And you put more over numbers, more value on numbers than you do the Lord moving in people's hearts and lives being changed. And so this is why we're building churches that are full of members with no conversions, because we're taking the Holy Spirit out of it. And it isn't us who draw men unto God, it's the Holy Spirit that does it.
Speaker 2:So how are you winning souls each and every Sunday when you're eliminating this gift of the Holy Spirit to flow in your services? I feel like preaching up in here, Go ahead somebody. Because you can't grow a church without the help of the Lord and His presence and His Spirit. You know what you can build. It is just a big old clique of people or cult of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a social club.
Speaker 2:Yep, basically, and no lives are being changed. That's why I posted this week is that we have no discernment on what is entertainment versus what is worship. It's because people leave emotionally high but spiritually drained. That's right. People do not know how to wait. They leave with their emotions tweaked and feeling good, but they are far from being where God's called them to be.
Speaker 2:As a pastor, you've got to store the gifts of the Spirit in your church. It's not a Pentecostal thing, it's not a holiness thing. It is a Bible thing. The Holy Spirit came to give you gifts. As a pastor, you need to really pray of how God is using the Holy Spirit to lead you and your church in the direction, and it may not be that you ever get over 100, because God is having you raise disciples that disciple and go do ministry outside of the four walls that never stay here. What's more healthy a church that houses 1,000 and sends none, or a church that houses 100 and sends 100? Yeah right, that's where we have to be as pastors. What is God's overall goal for us during our ministry? Because success is not how big it is, that's it.
Speaker 1:And that's the truth, man. And I remember specifically, I was at a conference and a young pastor stood up and he asked a question. He said, with all of you pastors up there who are successful, and he was asking a question. He said with all of you pastors up there who are successful, and he was asking a question, and my first thought was what's successful? What do you think is successful? Because what you think is successful may not be what I think is successful. What I think is success is doing exactly what God's called me to do, how he's called me to do it. Not what I want to see, but what he says is right. Not what I think is right, but what God says is right for me and for the ministry he's called me to. Your success may be 10 people. Your success may be 1,000. I don't know, that's between you and God, but anyway we could hang our hat there, for a little while, for sure could.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one thing, last thing we learned and we're going to talk about how, as laity, as members of the church, how you can help make pastoring a lot easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, let's talk real quick. One more about transition.
Speaker 2:Because this is big.
Speaker 1:This is big. This is important, especially for young pastors who are in the wing or those who are going to take over, those who are coming to a new church. If you're establishing your own, you establish your own culture. But if you were taking over a ministry, the thought could be I'm going to snatch this thing in a direction I want it to go.
Speaker 1:And you will lose. You will end up causing more problems and chaos than you do, drawing people to the ministry and drawing people to God. I remember when I first took over, I was talking with our bishop he's not the bishop anymore Brother Greg Amos. He gave me a book and the book was called Three Kings and it was about the difference between Saul, david and Absalom and how they came to power, and it was basically about submitting yourself to authority, submitting yourself to your leadership. When God's ready for you to come along, he will put you in the position.
Speaker 1:And then he told me another thing that stuck with me forever. He said, jason, I want you to understand that ministry, the church, is a battleship. It's not a jet ski, he said. It may be fun to go out there and ride the waves and turn it left and right, he said, but that boat only houses one. He said a battleship is what the church really is. And it turns slow and you have to have everybody on the weapon systems. They have to know how to run the weapon systems, they need to know who the enemy truly is, he said. And you turn it slowly, inch by inch, because if you snatch it around you're going to end up causing more chaos and hurt than you are rallying people to fight the true enemy.
Speaker 2:Yep, and the misconception is that you're the lead pastor. You do what you want Exactly. Here's the truth, though, is if a good lead pastor even though that reality is kind of true I mean, if God's giving you, you something, you want to be able to make that decision, to get the support from however your board and stuff is laid, yeah so you are technically overseeing it all.
Speaker 2:But a good pastor wants to cast vision absolutely and get people involved to help that way. This my pastor told me. He said whenever you change certain things, or you're gonna, you want people involved make it feel like it, feel like it was their idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you cast vision, get them so involved in it that they feel a part of it, and those ships, like the Titanic, are a lot easier to turn because you've cast it with vision. I even tell our leaders this that even if you make a smallest change, like why you changed a policy or why you changed something that we did on Sunday, do it with vision. Hey, we are now going to rotate people on the worship team is because we want you to rest and because we want people to be able to sing differently together and cast vision. Now people don't think that you took them off like this Sunday because they sang bad the previous Sunday.
Speaker 2:You cast vision, same thing with transitions and stuff like that, because it's going to happen and some people will just still jump ship.
Speaker 1:You got to as a pastor.
Speaker 2:You just got to see that. But what you got to also understand is that if that's what happens, then they weren't meant to be a part of where God's taking you next. Right, just what you said at the very beginning. There are some people there for seasons and some of those transitional things that you cast with vision or season ending conversations for certain people. Um, we've talked about this a little bit when it came to um, uh, people at our church like there are some people like we talked about stephen furtick and our messages are a little different because he is a very surface level. It based of what we we've listened to. I've heard him in a very long time. It could have changed by now. And then us we dig deeper into a little word Now we break it down and stuff like that. Our theology is a little different than his, but we realize that, based off people's spiritual maturity, they can transition out of a ministry into another one, because surface level stuff don't feel me anymore.
Speaker 2:And now they've got to transition over to another place. So even when, as a new pastor coming in and transitioning, those things happen too and you've got to be able to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And speaking of which, you know, I had a lady and it wasn't wasn't really that long ago came to me. She's a pastor. I just I feel like. I feel like there, I get it. I understand what you're saying. She was why are we doing it this way? Why are we doing this? And I said here's what you have to understand. You see yourself and your maturity. I see 100 people. Yeah, some are newly, freshly saved, don't know anything other than Jesus loves them, and some of them understand how to cast out demons.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And they understand the spiritual side of things. Now, as a pastor, how do you lead all those different people in the same direction at the same time? Yep, you have to. There's this depth that not everybody has, not everybody's ready for, not everybody wants. I'm trying to lead these people and she's like well, I just I feel like you know it's time for me to move on.
Speaker 1:And I said I get it, I understand, and I did like I normally said come in on Sunday, we'll bless you, we'll send you on your way. If you feel like that's what God's called you to do, how can I argue with the authority If that's what God, if you truly now, not just that you feel like God said this yesterday and now God changed his mind today. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if you really truly feel like God has called you to go do something else, then come in. We'll bless you, we'll help you. I'm here to help. Yeah, and like I told her when she left, I said if you ever felt like you, you made a bad decision, that if you're always welcome back, we love you that's it, but anyway yeah, lady, go ahead yep, so let's talk about.
Speaker 2:I got four ways and you might can add some more, and we can talk about this really briefly. But of all these ways that you can help your pastor, one is show up. Show up the church, yes, uh, helps your pastor, it gives them confidence. Our, our churches, is that we don't. We don't guilt trip people for not attending, because we believe that the church is only as healthy as the families that make it up. Right, and part of the ways to keep you healthy is you serve together, you worship together, and the last thing is that you spend time together, and sometimes that means missing sunday to go spend a weekend together, and so we put a high value on that. But I think it's very important that, if you can be there, show up to church, yeah. And so the second thing is serve. Serve alongside the pastor, because the easier that when we talk about healthy church is, when not the same people is not doing everything, and it lightens the load of the pastor, because the pastor can actually offer more things for the church, the more vision for the church when there's more people involved in actually being hands-on, right, being the hands of the feet of jesus. So, if you'll, if you'll show up, you'll serve. And hey, we got to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Give. Give is the easy way to let vision. Not, I'm talking about paying salaries. The salaries are beyond the, the thing you and I both know. I could tell you, for us, salaries is not the biggest thing that we care about. I will say this, don't kill me. I know Pastor Jay has paid people out of his own pocket to serve the body. I was one of those who benefited from that. For us, we would rather get a building before I get full time in ministry. I was one of those who benefited from that, and for us, we would rather get a building Before I get full time in ministry. So giving, when we say giving, it's not so you can fill the pastor's pocket, that's that misconception.
Speaker 2:And there are pastors like that there are, but for us, and some others that we do know of, are great stewards of finances and because it's God's money, it ain't ours. But when you give, you allow more vision to be produced out of your church, because what we believe is we are not a bank, we don't just hoard hundreds of thousands of dollars. No, we take that money and we sow, we bless, we serve, we do things for the body to build the kingdom. And so if you'll show up, if you'll serve, you'll give for the vision to go forth and don't give the vision you don't believe in now. Get a part of a vision that you believe in. If you believe in the vision, you will easily give to it, absolutely. What we tell our church is this I've already named two of these things that if you truly love the Lord this is why we don't have to talk about serving and giving every Sunday at church is because, if you truly are the Lord, two things will happen. Naturally you will want to serve the body and you will want to sow into the body, and so you want to be generous, because that's what Christians are they're generous.
Speaker 2:And last thing is, get in your word. Get in your word, and I don't say that just to push off responsibility to the pastor, off the pastor. But it's hard to lead people who struggle to be in the word, because what happens is when people aren't are in the word, they need counseling for everything. And it's not counseling that we need all the time. It could be just discipleship. It could be that you just lack getting in your word, because in your word you find freedom. In your word you find healing. In your word you can find everything that you need. Get in your word, get in your word. Get back to the bible go ahead, ahead.
Speaker 1:Hit them with it, hit them with it.
Speaker 2:Come on back to Bible. Yeah, so anything you want to add to that? Before I say the last thing we got to say about this, yeah, no, man, I'm good.
Speaker 1:I think you know what We've got here. Last man, Pray for your pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Bro, it is so huge. And that story man of the war that was going on, I think it was Moses that's holding his hands up. And as long as his hands are up, they're winning the war. But the moment his hands come down, they start losing the war. And people come up behind Moses and they help him lift his hands and hold his hands up. Man, sometimes your pastor needs that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Sometimes your pastor needs you to help hold his hands up, cover him in prayer, cover his family in prayer, because here's what I can tell you. This is our perception. I promise you, if we were to bring our wives in here, what they, as the quote unquote first lady, what their misconceptions are, what they thought about ministry, which I think we've, maybe we should do that Maybe we should, maybe, we should, we might have to, you know I mean, but really their perspective, man, what we don't realize and I can tell you this too, I've experienced this with two kids now the weight that they feel being the pastor's kid.
Speaker 1:Caleb got baptized, even recently. We baptize every family day. We just had some baptisms this past Sunday and Caleb came to me and nobody had signed up to be baptized. I was Anna. I'm like, hey, you know what, if nobody signs up, I'm, I'm not even gonna drag the tub out, fill it up and do all that stuff, like everybody comes, so just nobody signs up, we just won't do it. And then Caleb comes up later on. He's like hey, dad, you know I've been thinking about it and I know I was baptized when I was seven. He's like, but I just I really feel like I need to be baptized because now I really understand it, now I really want to show everybody You're going to get me choked up over here Hold on.
Speaker 1:That I believe in Jesus, that he's my Lord and Savior, and so he's like I think I'm going to do it again. And I didn't say anything because the dad part of me was like I ain't dragging that baptism tail out for one person. But I thought about it. If this was anybody in the congregation I'd be glad to drag it out. I didn't say one word. I said okay, son, sounds good to me. Buddy, I love that idea. Sunday came out right. Saturday, we drug it out, we filled it up, ended up being more people wanting to be baptized. Awesome, right.
Speaker 1:But ultimately, his thought was, though, when he talked to me after, he's just like oh, the pastor's kid ain't been baptized, so they carry this weight. Whether we realize it or not, they carry this weight with them as well, that I'm the pastor's kid. I can't do this. And even one he was wanting to go to vacation with a girl and he promised me we won't sleep in the same room. I said, son, you're not going. You can say and promise whatever you want to do, it's not going to happen. I said. And then I made the comment what would people think if you know the pastor talks about this, talks about that, but his kid goes and, you know, spends the night regardless in the same roof as a girl, and he's like why do we have so much you know, this and that on us? And I'm like, son, because you do.
Speaker 2:You do.
Speaker 1:It is what it is. There's no way around it. I can't sugarcoat it, I can't tiptoe around it. You are held to a higher standard and we're going to be that standard. But anyway there is a weight on our family that we don't even understand because we're not in their position.
Speaker 2:Let me just say this the standard that he felt still protected him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then sometimes we look at the standards as a disadvantage to us. Right, but, man, I could preach this, go ahead somebody. But it is to our advantage, because think, if the standard wasn't there, he could easily have fell right into sin. Absolutely, he ain't got a taste of something that got him hooked and started living in sin, right, but the standard that was withheld kept him him safe and pure and righteous. That's it. Yes, sir, and so it's all about perspective. We talk about perception and stuff. It's all about that thing. You could look at it as the burden hanging over your head for the standard, but there's a good thing about the standards, while the law, the law was a good thing, yeah, it was a good thing. But, uh, we know we got a better law now, a better relationship now. So, hey, I want to bless you, you good.
Speaker 1:I'm good sir.
Speaker 2:Let's bless the people. We always do this and we just want to bless you and thank you so much for listening. Share with somebody that you think would benefit from this.
Speaker 1:And I would say too if there's a topic that you want to hear about, would love to hear our perspective on, hey, just shoot us a message, send us an email, whatever you want to do, we'd love to hear from you guys, yep absolutely.
Speaker 2:This comes from Numbers, chapter 6. It's the priestly blessing. It says May the Lord bless you and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you his favor and give you his peace. Thanks again. So much. Share like comment. Let us know what you think about this and we'll catch you here next time. Pastor to Pastor.
Speaker 1:God bless you.