Personable
Meet Guy Kinnings the Man who Runs Golf: Dep. CEO DP World Tour & Executive Director Ryder Cup Ep 8
We're thrilled to welcome Guy Kinnings, the Deputy CEO of the DP World Tour and the Executive Director of the Ryder Cup. A titan in the world of golf, Guy shares his unique journey from a legal background to becoming an influential figure in the World of golf.
Personable is a podcast dedicated to helping listeners become the best they can be by learning from the world’s best in their respective fields. This mission is inspired by my mother, Louise, who encouraged me to become the best version of myself before she passed away from cancer in 2023.
Connect with Harvey:
Harvey's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harveybracken-smith/
Harvey's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harveybsmith/
Personable Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harveybsmithpodcast_/
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My dad's startup: https://www.thedraft.io/
Donate to the charity we have founded in memory of my mum: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/LouLouRacefoiundation?utm_term=PvByaxmdn
We're thrilled to welcome Guy Kinnings, the Deputy CEO of the DP World Tour and the Executive Director of the Ryder Cup. A titan in the world of golf, Guy shares his unique journey from a legal background to becoming an influential figure in the World of golf.
Personable is a podcast dedicated to helping listeners become the best they can be by learning from the world’s best in their respective fields. This mission is inspired by my mother, Louise, who encouraged me to become the best version of myself before she passed away from cancer in 2023.
Connect with Harvey:
Harvey's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harveybracken-smith/
Harvey's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harveybsmith/
Personable Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harveybsmithpodcast_/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7JOTYDER6m2FDrlhop4api
My dad's startup: https://www.thedraft.io/
Donate to the charity we have founded in memory of my mum: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/LouLouRacefoiundation?utm_term=PvByaxmdn
Hello and welcome to episode 8 of Personalable. Today, I'm hugely honoured to be joined by Guy Kinnings. Guy is hugely successful being the Deputy CEO of the European Tour Group as well as the Chief Commercial Officer, and he is also the Executive Director of the Rider Cup. I feel hugely honoured to be joined by Guy today and I'm very excited for our conversation.
Speaker 2:It'll be good to see you, dirden. Very kindly, nice intro, much appreciated.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, guy. So I wanted to get started by asking you very quickly to sum up those roles, and what exactly do each of those mean?
Speaker 2:It's a good question, because no one should really have three titles. The reason I do is because and I'm sure we'll touch on it I've worked in golf for many decades and I was at a firm called IMG when I chose about five, six years ago five years ago, just over five years ago to leave there. I came to work at what was the European Tour Group and we have now rebranded the main tour as a DP World Tour. I joined to run the Rider Cup. It's an event I've always loved. So I came in as the Rider Cup Director now Executive Director of the Rider Cup but also, I think, they chose to involve me in some aspects of the tour as well.
Speaker 2:Obviously, the Rider Cup is an event that happens every two years. We run over 100 events a year on the tour across three different tours. So I came in as a deputy CEO and then, about maybe a year after that, I took on the role of the Chief Commercial Officer, which is something I'd covered in passing at IMG. So that's how I've ended up with the three roles. Obviously, with what's happened recently, my focus has been largely on the Rider Cup, but there's also been a huge amount going on in golf. So that's how I've ended up with the other three monikers.
Speaker 1:Amazing. How did you sort of backtracking a lot? What was your sort of like journey like as a teenager going to university, what were your initial career plans and then how did that transition towards golf?
Speaker 2:I was. I left school having studied kind of classics, english history, and played a lot of sport fairly mediocrely but loved it, you know and in lots of different areas, ended up at university and I studied law. And I studied law not because I had this burning desire to go and be a lawyer. I kind of liked the idea of it and had watched lots of legal dramas, things like that. But the truth was I kind of felt what I'd studied lent itself and law didn't close a lot of doors. It gave you this kind of learning that hopefully would be applicable wherever I ended up. And again at uni I was very lucky.
Speaker 2:I went to Oxford, I got to study law there and I got to play a lot of college, some university sport, at fairly modest levels. But I funnily enough, joined a sports club, the Vincent's Club, and worked there, did some stuff on the committee there and there was that sort of thought maybe I could work in sport in some way. But I still graduated. I went and studied at Freshfields, a fantastic magic circle law firm, ended up doing qualifying in the company commercial area, had the most wonderful time but and was thoroughly enjoying it. But when the opportunity arose because I was still young and feckless and someone came along working for Mark McCormack who had kind of invented the sport spirit. The opportunity came along then to go and work there and I thought, oh, that's wonderful, you know I'll immediately go and work in sport.
Speaker 2:The reality was you just can't go in and do that. I went in as an in-house lawyer and ended up running the legal department and then I transferred into where I kind of wanted to be, which was sport. So I'd love to claim it was all part of a grand plan. It really wasn't. You know, these things happen and it's what you make of them. But I'm very glad, I'm really glad I studied what I studied. I'm glad I did classics. Strangely enough, I thought that it seemed very applicable. I'm really glad I studied law, and working in the city as a lawyer was fantastic. So although they're not used every day, I think some of the skills I picked up there are kind of useful where I've ended up in working in sport. How?
Speaker 1:did you transition from the law department to what you did, and do you think something like that is still possible in today's world?
Speaker 2:It's a very good question because it was then, funnily enough, a very good route to get into sport. I think things have changed. So when I went there, mark McCormack, who had founded not just IMG, but when he shook hands with Arnold Palmer in 1963, he kind of created the whole sports marketing business. And Mark was a lawyer and a pretty good lawyer. He's also a good golfer. He got to play in the I think it was the US Open and he ends up standing on the range hitting balls pretty well, and then he's conscious that the guy next to him is hitting him and it makes a different noise and he goes a different distance and he's like, well, of course it's Arnie and he turns and they become lifelong friends and lifelong business partners. And Arnie was the start of the first client of IMG and Mark from there signed up, jack signed up, gary signed up, you know Jackie Stewart and Rod Laver and John Bookillion and all those classes. But he did it, having been a lawyer. So, funnily enough, those days going in as a lawyer or on the financial side was a really good training to then transition out. So after about I'd been working on the legal department and I'd been doing contracts in the golf area, which was a very big part of the business, in tennis, which was very big and, funnily enough, in fashion and in classical music. I self-evidently know nothing about fashion. I knew less about classical music side. I enjoyed, though not a great, not an absolute. I played many other sports, but golf was still relatively new, but I enjoyed working on the golf side. So I was doing contracts and we were incredibly lucky Lucky, or maybe Mark Muarty was doing.
Speaker 2:There was this amazing generation of pro golfers, all born within a year of each other, and it was Sonek Faldo and Woosie Sandy Lyle, I think it was Nicky Price, greg Norm and Bernard Langer. I think they were all born with, I think Seville as well. They were all born within a year of each other and Mark ended up managing almost all of those not Seville but all of the other and I was working on the legal side for that and I think I had what may have been the only career talk I ever had, which was my then boss, a gentleman I think, called Ian Todd and said you should be doing the legal stuff and I'm like, oh, I thought that's what they did. He went, no, no, no, you should be managing, and that was it. I ended up working with two brilliant golfers who then both had come from the county where I was brought up in Shropshire. That was Sandy Lyle and Ian Woosie, and they were the guys I ended up working with initially and then from there. So I effectively became an agent and handed over legal to people who did it infinitely better than I did and then went from there and worked with them and then got to sign some of my own clients and inherited some others and that's how I ended up.
Speaker 2:It was through no great golfing ability. It was kind of knowing what they did there, how their businesses were being managed legally, and it may felt transition easier. And your question is a good one because I Think that is still possible and I think there are still. There are still People who've done that, who worked as lawyers, moved across. I was at the rugby World Cup at the at the weekend with Alan Gilpin, who does a brilliant job there, but he like me, I think, started as a lawyer and moved over.
Speaker 2:I think now people tend to maybe specialize earlier and come with skill sets in. It may be legal and finance, but it may well be in marketing or it may be in sports management or it may be in all of these different areas. So I think people tend to go in and stay in those roles a little bit more. But that was how it worked then and it had worked for Mark Ian Todd had also been legally trained and a lot of the people who had been there at IMG at that kind of boom type I mean the business Growing exponentially into all of the areas from golf into media and what a number of them had been Trained legally and financially.
Speaker 2:Which hope, I think. I think I remember one client, monty, always used to say it's kind of handy to have a have a, have a, have an officer qualified lawyer managing. I think he probably learned to regret that, but the notion was this you could say at least a gate, say. He could say it in black and it sounded good, Even if he knew it was holding him back, but he was, he was kind enough to still let me do it.
Speaker 1:Do you think, do you think, you were had any inherent Skills that made you so good at this role, and what sort of value were you providing these players that made them want to work with you over Someone else or another firm?
Speaker 2:It's well I'm done. Certainly no, in the clear, many inherent skills I got the I've been and I've been lucky throughout. I've had the most wonderful time doing all this stuff. When I went in, I think that you know there were a lot of people who work and manage players and they have lots of, lots of different skill sets and are those who Played the sport at the highest level, which self evidently was not me. It was those of the bid on tour and experienced it. My knowledge and skill set when I went in there was Legal training and so I knew my way around the contracts that ultimately we would be generating for them and, and hopefully my bosses had seen something that meant that they thought I would be able to communicate with those people and within the business, you also, to be honest, to do it. You, you, you. You got a. You got a love the sport and I do. I have. I love other sports, but I love working in golf and the people I've met and the values and all the stuff that goes with golf and makes it such an attractive event albeit an issue event of sport. It is a very attractive sport. So you know, I had a Love of the game, a bit of a knowledge of it, a respect for it. You know to be a good agent. You really go apart your ego to do it properly. The end of the day, you know who the talent is and you know who needs to be front of the house and you need to be able to read it. Part that ego gets stuck in roll-up sleeves, do the menial along with the creative and whatever. I was lucky enough to be part of and I work with an amazing team Across everyone at IMG, particularly in the golf team, and I worked there during the McCormack era, which was amazing because the man who's founded the whole business and he was a Absolute inspiration mentor to me. But equally, there were others or people who work within Mr Johnson, bob Kane, when Mark sadly passed, got to work with Teddy foresman, with Ari Emanuel, who who ran that business. These are, you know, amazing people and it was, it was, it was a privilege and you've got to learn how to do these things in different ways. So I wouldn't say it was inherent skills. I think there are lots of different ways.
Speaker 2:The only thing that really matters to a player, a client, doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter what you've done. They got to trust you. You know, the reality is you, whether it's a broadcaster or a Sponsor or a promoter of an event. They don't want to deal with an agent. In reality, they want to deal with the player, the talent, therefore. But they can't because guess what? The talents got to be away practicing, preparing or playing. Therefore, they got to deal with you. That player has to trust that you will represent them as well as if they were there and, in some cases, hopefully better. And In the end, it all comes down to trust.
Speaker 2:You know, you look at many reasons why you work with players and I've been incredibly lucky. I've worked with the most amazing talent, an amazing personality. At the end of the day, you know, be like well, what have you done? You need to make sure they're commercially well off. You need to have good career advice. You need to advise and avoid pitfalls. The end of the day, they, they just got to trust you for that. So I I've always believed, but the single most important thing is is is you know I messed up the whole time. These guys knew this. I've been sacked by the best of them, but in the end, they got to trust that you're gonna do the best you can, and I think that's what is at the heart of Of doing that job, for whether you're working with players, whether you're working with commercial partners, with you're working with other people, whoever they are, you represent. They got a trust.
Speaker 1:If you created, and you think you create, this trust and you Marry to work with some of the world's best players, was there ever a part of you that thought of maybe going to another firm, another sport, or starting your own firm within golf to do a Similar thing? Why did you set the same firm for for so long?
Speaker 2:I did and I you know what I had to explain this. I remember when and Teddy foresmen took the firm, took, bought the business from the McCormack estate and it wasn't just me, there were a number of others who'd been there for you know a number of years, 20 years and he's like you could see him thinking why are you so lacking in ambition? You know you all hit the reason was, in reality, when I went to IG, they were absolutely the market leader In sports management. Now there are a lot of other utterly brilliant firms that have come along since then and do a wonderful job and certainly in golf we were the market leaders and Whether it was on the talent side, on the event side, on the media side, every aspect, we were the best and we had the best client base and it was wonderful. Now these things always evolve for me.
Speaker 2:I I Post-rationalized, not moving around one. I knew I work better in a big organization. I know my limitations and I knew I needed people who did think better than I could in the different areas, because it's not just one person managing a player or running an event, it's a huge team. You may front it, they are all there Doing the hard work. You're taking the credit, so one. I knew I needed a team, so I was never gonna go work on my own. I absolutely didn't want to do that class. I Loved working with a lot of talent, a lot of events, all aspects of the sport. If you go on your own you you are ultimately gonna get more limited to work with just either one individual, however brilliant that individual is All one event or so one. I like the variety too. I love the people there and I love the business and the way it would run. And you know it, my role evolved. So I started out as a, as a low-life agent, you know, scuttling around on tour doing that. I then got to run the client business. I then got to run the overall golf business. I then moved away from more around players into big Corporations. We represented governing bodies. You know I work incredibly closely with the RNA and others. So for me, although I was left in order to murder, time never felt like that yeah, because one the role kept changing to the people you were with.
Speaker 2:Although I got to work with a lot of brilliant people for a very long time, there was always change and there were always people coming in at senior level, junior level, that kept it fresh and it's, you know, whatever you say and I'd, I'd love my time as a lot, but it is fun. We are privileged to get to work with these amazing players, amazing events. I can't quite believe that. You know, I get to work on the rider cut, which I just think is maybe the best. I think it's best thing. You got fun by it.
Speaker 2:I'll offend others because they're other brilliant event, kind of think it's one of the best things in sport and you get to work on it. And you know, sure it's hard work and shoot it, but you have to occasionally pinch yourself and stand there and go Look what I'm doing. And so that was the case it was. I had no desire Till the opportunity arose to go and work on the rider cut, which for me was the thing. I had no real desire and I had looked around at other things and it just they either weren't right at the right time or, you know, ultimately I was very happy and I signed off going. Couldn't have had a better time there, wonderful organization. And then I got to go to another brilliant organ. I think so.
Speaker 1:I've been lucky. That's amazing. I mean, I was gonna ask you about the DP World Tour. But while we're on the topic of the rider car, I'd be curious as with an event like that that's so wild, famous how you balance the mix between innovating, improving and both the revenue, the content of the few days Versus maintaining the tradition and keeping the players happy. How do you balance those two out with it With a tournament like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. That's a very, very pertinent question at any time, but it's particularly relevant right now, funnily enough, working in golf full-stop. You have to, to an extent, balance that, because Golf isn't Football, it isn't a huge global sport. It punches way above its weight. It is a niche sport, that is. But he's global, is growing demographically, growing commercially and more people are being brought in than ever. So it's in, it's a boom time for golf. But what you balance, exactly as you've asked, is it is centered in history and Honesty and integrity. And the reason the sport is so appealing to fans and to, you know, abc ones, to C-suite executives, to big companies, is because it embodies all this kind of Self-policing.
Speaker 2:Old and young can play together, male, female, handicapping. You can truly play against Tiger Woods Because of handicapping. The reality is you can't look up against Federer, you can't drive against a Hamilton because you just so. We're very lucky we have a handy a program where you get to play for three or four hours with your true heroes and you can compete. So golf has all of these Inherent values that you have to nurture, and whether that is the rider cup, which has this near hundred year history of true sporting Excellence, but played in the right value. You're not players, do not get paid. They play for their country, they're continent each other, they're captain and it you can see they know they're playing for something bigger and different and that's why it's different from from any other event. Um, I and you do need to innovate. As you've rightly said, you cannot sit still unless you're progressing. Your standing still. So we did, oh my God, 2025 things differently in Rome and tried things out, and we'll do more. And we'll do more when we go to New York in 25, we'll do more. We go to Adair Manor in Ireland in 27. But you have to do them in a way that is improves the experience for the players, for the spectators, for the viewers, for everyone. Grow, improve, but still, to my mind, respect what is all about the essence of the game. So people go oh, they ride a car. It's amazing. Why don't we play it every year? And you know what? It's great for three days. Let's do, thor. The problem is, you analyze it and what you would do is, I believe, take away the essence of what that event is, and we built out the weak in advance.
Speaker 2:People had astonishing experiences in Rome. We had a welcome ceremony we've never had before. We adapted the opening ceremony, we had the junior right, we had all of these things, but in the end it's what happens inside the ropes from Friday morning to Sunday evening and you see what those players did both teams was astonishing, absolutely astonishing. Privileged work because you could see how much it meant to them it was in the rider cup is very fortunate. Even when it isn't close, it feels close and that was close and that was amazing.
Speaker 2:So many stories, so many interwoven stuff. So you had these three days of utterly compelling viewing and I will never forget when I was given the chance to work on it, I was undecided, I was very happy where I was, lovely play and I was. I mentioned to my brother and who is not a sports man and he doesn't follow it very closely, he does other things very well and he said you do know that's the event that our mother who just passed, he said that's the one that she used to lock the doors, put the phone off the hook, get the ready meals in and literally no one would disturb it. And I think people feel a very different way about the rider cup, whether it's whether they're there and they experience, and I've had so many amazing messages after Rome with people going. We just had this amazing experience.
Speaker 2:People who watched it on the TV, listened to it on the radio, consumed it in bite size. All of those things, they all when that was something really special. And that's where sport becomes something that is so compelling, it's passionate, it's tribal. The rider cup is tribal, it's everything. Those crowds polite golf crowds, who normally clap when someone makes a birdie, are chanting on the first tee, the two tee, the two groups, and it just hair on the back of your neck stuff. So I think you rightly point out it's a mixture of the two. You have to innovate, improve, make sure we do things better, but respect the history of that sport and that event.
Speaker 1:That's insane. Well, some of your I mean you've touched on a lot of them what were some of your goals going into this rider cup of how to make it different and how to improve it, and did it work and what work?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I'll leave it for others to decide if it worked, but the general reaction seems to be that the event went well. I mean, we, it was interesting. The rider cup is, let's be honest. It was founded 1927 when Samuel Ryder handed over little gold trophy, got some replicas lurking behind and for a long time it did not capture imagination. It was a great event, but the barricade well, more often than not, and it really didn't capture everyone's imagination.
Speaker 2:Then, suddenly, 1979, gb, and I realized they needed some help from some Europeans and income this generation of Spaniards and Germans and Italians and you look at these and of course Seville led it. And of course it was Seville and Ollie and Bernadette Langer and Fran Malinar and others have done this, but they transformed the event. So suddenly, from 79 onwards, europe were competitive and the event developed this extraordinary history of people winning it against, let's be honest, unbelievable American team, brilliant American team, and somehow this, these little underdogs, the European underdogs, would rally every two years to win at home and we've won at home now for 34 years but also win away sometime in a miracle of Medina. Who will ever forget it? First time we won it when Tony Jacqueline led the team to win it. So the event became something that was very cherished in the game, amazing asset, and it grew in size and scale and value every map. I arrived in time to be there for to be of seeing what they did in Paris. Hadn't done all the preparatory work but I arrived there for it and Paris was amazing, really amazing. Brilliant tournament. Thomas Bjorn led the team, brilliant, amazing team effort had it was a superb event and everyone went. How do you top that? And it was really interesting because we sat down and we went yeah, no, they're right, really good, but we could do this, we could do that, we could do the other.
Speaker 2:And you're always changing because you're going from. You're going from a great European capital in Paris to Rome, and Rome was under 10 miles away from the golf course. Now there are practical challenges. You know golf is not a massive sport. In Italy I think in a survey it was voted the 15th most popular pastime before the event. We have moved it a bit. So one you're going in, going. We've got to pull it off in a country that's new to it. We've never staged a ride or cut there and you're building and there were delays. Covid came and you're building a new course, effectively a new course, although it was adapting. You know so all of these variables, but you were conscious that one. You were within striking distance of this amazing city, so we staged events at and around the Coliseum, on the Spanish steps, around the Trevi Fountain, all of these sort of things which adds a certain something to any sporting event.
Speaker 2:But also what was so interesting is, in between Paris and Rome, we'd gone to Whistling Straits and the Americans had had a very record, convincing victory, and it was tough. It was tough. There was no European traveling fans. Gordon Hansen did a great job, but it was very tough and we got thumped. And the American perception was you know, it's gonna be tough to do it in Italy and you know what it's gonna be. You can't see that American team losing for a decade, and some people had even said that.
Speaker 2:So, one, you've got the challenges of taking an event to this scale to a new market. You've also got with Luke Dockle, who didn't even have a full run at it, you know, he came in a little bit later in the process and he's having to galvanize a team to go up against what they know will be a brilliant American team. And so, inside and outside the ropes, rome completely exceeded all expectation, because Luke Luke, get that right did an utterly brilliant job. I mean, he really was an outstanding captain. He had brilliant vice captain and the team just responded Superstars played well, the rookies were fantastic.
Speaker 2:What they produced was an utterly compelling performance, which was incredibly exciting. So one it worked really well inside the ropes and we will all remember those moments I mean, that was just so many, I can't list them all, but there were so many but outside the ropes it also worked. And guess what? The sun came out. It was amazing crowds, marvelous Italian food, great incident. It just became this exceptional event and we now have to move on and go. How do we improve? Still from there? But yeah, the goal was just to make it every time bigger and better, each cycle on cycle.
Speaker 1:Do you? Sounds like a stupid question, but do you? Is there a representative from the US side as well and you work with them? Or are you doing the overall? I don't know. It's a good question. It's all about Europe a lot I do, and I wonder if any of the US players are like, come on, kind of people leading a tournament having favorites. Maybe they changed the whole, maybe they well, it needs to be caused.
Speaker 2:I'm allowed to be partisan because at the moment, the way the Ryder Cup is run and that's why, again, why it's unique Ryder Cup Europe run the event every four years. The PGA of America run the event every four years and so we do. I have counterparts at the PGA of America with whom we work incredibly closely and they will run the event. So they ran the event at Whistler and Straits. They will run the event at Bethpage Black in New York and 25. We ran the event in Paris. Rome will run it in a day. So, although we work closely together in terms of global sponsorship deals, media deals, we work, collaborate on areas like merchandise and consumer and we assist. It is very much US against Europe and therefore I speak about Europe because my responsibility was to stage it in Rome. I will not stage it in New York. My counterparts at the PGA of America will do it and will do it very well. So it is an interesting one. It is not a property that's run by the same team. It's run by a different team and that people could go well, have you insured consistency? Well, we insured consistency by working together. We may fight like hell inside the ropes, but outside the ropes we collaborate very closely with the PGA of America and also, in a sense, it has to feel different.
Speaker 2:Rome felt different. There is a home advantage. You probably have the larger number in the crowd. The captain can absolutely tinker how the course is set up. When we go to New York they will encounter some of the most vocal, passionate golf fans anywhere on the planet and that's why when Rory was talking about it afterwards he said you know, were looped to choose to go again.
Speaker 2:It would be astonishing if he succeeded, because it's really tough to win away and you know that's why so often we're at home and then you know. So for us to go and win in New York, if they're European team, to win in New York would be a huge challenge. But I talk about you. If you were to ask someone at the PGA of America, they would talk just as passionately about doing it, because we all have this love of the event and in a sense it needs to feel different. You're going to a New York Ryder Cup. You want to experience New York in the same way that I think people left Rome going amazing sporting event and wow, did the eternal city deliver or not, so it almost needs to have that little bit of difference. It's a tribal event. It needs to be run by the two tribes.
Speaker 1:You talk about these two tribes and collaborating during this time, but aside from that, do you and the PGA torch, do you guys view each other as enemies? Do you view them as competition or merely just people to compare yourselves to it?
Speaker 2:It's two different bodies than, to be clear. On the Ryder Cup you have the PGA of America. That's the body that represents the club pro Sure. So we, of course we're competitive. You know we want to run the best event, we want our team to do well, but equally we're conscious that we are custodians of the same event staged every two years. So we have to work closely together and luckily enough, the CEO, seth, was a good friend and you know all of the all of the other senior staff on all of us. They're people we work very closely with, so we do collaborate.
Speaker 2:It answers your question on the PGA Tour, because that's a sort of tour question. Historically, you would have said, yeah, the tours are competitive because you would fight for the talent. Are they going to play on that tour or this tour, fight for the commercial? But obviously and I know how well research you are on this you know, in recent years we have struck a strategic alliance with the PGA Tour and we now work incredibly closely with them to make sure that you make sure the best global talent gets to play where it wants to. So I would say, probably in the past we were more competitive. We still remain extremely competitive.
Speaker 2:You can see how much those players truly want to beat each other and that's why you can't make this stuff up. It's got to be real. You can't manufacture it. There is real intensity and they may look each other in the eyes and shake hands afterwards. They really want to win at the time and there is no let up on that. But equally, you know those of us who are lucky enough to work around that talent, you know. Sure there is an element where there is competitive tension, but in reality it's our job to work as well as we can to ensure a the rider cut as a property gets better. But for us you know the two tours we've got to make sure professional golf is in a better place and we can only do that by working together, and we do incredibly closely with transitioning more into the tour size.
Speaker 1:I know you say you're you're working more with them. Now I'm still curious apart from sort of geographical locations, how would you say that you can differentiate yourself from something like the PGA tour? You're still competing on things like viewing numbers, just trying to bring in as much revenue. So how do you differentiate yourself playing the same sport and the way that it's run and the way that it's filmed and the way that it's presented, the way that you interact with the agents and the players and all of that side?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a very interesting topic you raise, because the reality is golf is a really complicated sport. I'm not to play, to understand and view it, but the organization of golf is incredibly complicated and there are seven, eight, nine global tours in the men's game, and then you've got the women's game, and then you've got federations and you've got the amateur game, you've got the junior game and now we've got we've created the golf of the disabled. So golf is huge and and tricky to understand global picture where we work together and you got to remember we, you got to know what our job is. Others will have responsibilities to grow the game at grassroots and whatever PGA Tour is responsible for the members of its tour, who are the elite, the best of the best on the PGA Tour and the PGA Tour and our tracks, a lot of great players from around the world, from any number of countries. The European Tour, as it was now the DP World Tour, has always been Its heartland, has been in, in, in, in Europe. We've developed into the Middle East, into Africa, australia and into Asia and we built this history up. And so there is, of course, as you rightly say, you know where are the players going to play, where are the sponsors going to go? Where are the broadcasts going to go? But if you can make the two tours work in a compatible way, also working with the other tours you've got to remember the Japan Tour is still it, it's the second biggest national market. Golf into Korea is huge, great in Australia, south Africa, middle East. You know we do a lot of golf there. China has, you know, erased golf. So if we can all find a way of working together with all our own unique styles, and you look at the history of our 40 events on the DP World Tour, some of them have 50, 100 years of history and these events are big events in their own right and therefore you play to your strengths you say, hey, we have these big events. The best players in the world may want to play on the PJ Tour in America as the song part of the year. Luckily enough, we have a lot of players who like to travel and they will come and play in Europe, in the Middle East, in Australia, south Africa and Asia.
Speaker 2:And therefore, if you don't coordinate, you run up with instances where big events against each other and then that's counterproductive. You've had unhappy broadcasters, unhappy sponsors. What you've got to do is to find a way listen to the players, work with them, as you say, work with all the other stakeholders, agents and others. Then try and create a global structure and we don't by any means say we've got it absolutely right and we are part of the stuff that's going on right now as you try and integrate everything that you want to have between the PJ Tour, dp World Tour, what HIF want to do and integrate in all of that is all about finding a way that you can create a compelling global offering that will appeal, will work for the players, will appeal to broadcasters, will appeal to commercial partners, and that's why you keep needing to refine it.
Speaker 2:And if there is no arm in it being challenged and changed, you know we need to improve the whole time and we are now in the throes of working out what will be the best global golfing offering. And then you hope everything else can fall in with that, because you know the growth in the women's game has been brilliant. Let's not forget you had a wonderful Solheim cup the week before the Ryder Cup. Suzanne Pettersen came with her husband to the Ryder Cup and you know she did a wonderful job. You know inspiring that team and that was amazing. So you want to nurture all of that.
Speaker 2:So if we can get our job right, we just do the tour. You then look at what the RNA, the USGA, do for amateur golf, the LPGA do for the top level of the ladies. There's got to be a way of trying to coordinate to attract investment in find the right product and we are by no means there yet but we're working on it and hopefully it'll allow golf as I said, there's an interesting golf like almost never before to our job to try and find a way of touring and galvanizing that interest to make sure that the game is stronger going forward.
Speaker 1:With the integration of the live goal and how that's changed. To chase the game how has that changed your perspectives on the traditional game of golf, with a lot of players, you know, leaving these traditional tours and going to new competitions you know we've mentioned before balancing the. You know creating the balance between traditional innovation. Then you've got a lot of these players leaving to go to completely new tournaments. How has that changed your perspectives on the game of golf and where it moves forward?
Speaker 2:I think all anyone can ever do. If you face competition and, as I said, we're finding a way that hopefully we can all work together and that would be a best thing for the game. But irrespective of that, competition is a good thing you need to always be challenged to improve. The only thing you can really control it's pretty difficult to control what other people do. All you can really do is try and control your own product, and it's clear that the fans and the broadcasters and the sponsors want different things. Then it's our job to go and look for those and we've always tried to weave in things to our golfing product, because golf, whether it's 72 golf, stroke play, whether it's match play, like it is with Ryder Cup, whatever it may be it's an adaptable format and people come and they watch for three or four days or however long it would be. But you know you can do things like we did at the BMW PGA championship. You know you have concerts every evening, you have culinary experiences, you involve celebrities and you bring all the things.
Speaker 2:At the moment we're very lucky. We've got amazing. People tend to be drawn to golf and so to have Novak Djokovic and Carlos Sainz and Gareth Bale there at the Ryder Cup and they were doing it. You know they iconed in their own sports and yet they were there and they were enjoying it, whatever else that brings a new audience in. So I think competitions I think competitions are a good thing. We have to always strive to improve our own product and we need to work together with whoever it is that has a view and a voice in the game to try and find what is the best ultimate product. And those refinements are happening anyway, week on week, year on year, year on year. But you know, what's happened recently has made things move faster and you know, as long as we end up in the best place in the end with something that is what people want, then I think that's a good thing and it's our job to go and try and make that happen.
Speaker 1:You touched that. It wasn't your job, but still being, you know, one of the leading tours in the world, and particularly with the Ryder Cup. How do you see younger people getting involved in the sport? Because I don't know the actual numbers, but I think there's a bit of presumption that a lot of older people play. I mean, I played golf not very well but I think there's a presumption that a lot of older people play golf and not as much younger people getting involved. So are there any efforts to try and get younger people involved? I mean things like the Ryder Cup where it's more tribal. It can be perhaps even more exciting. What are your thoughts on that and trying to get that younger demographic? I?
Speaker 2:think it's the biggest and most important challenge we have. As you rightly say, golf has a perception of white middle-aged blokes in bad jumpers and you know putting off. I like your job. I mean diversity of things. You know the female players and diverse different groups and the juniors.
Speaker 2:You know there's no doubt that the sort of you know, the private members club has not always been an obviously welcoming place. The single biggest opportunity we have, I believe, is to show that actually the game can appeal to all and to make golf accessible. And in the past golf's been judged it's always judged itself very hard. I mean, you were a golf fan and you had to be. Well, when did you last play 18 holes at a private club? Well, it's a very, now very small group of people. So people who Go to top golf, people who gain, people who go to putt check, people who go and do all of these things, they're involved in golf somewhere. They may only play three holes, six holes, nine holes, they may go down. You know, attracting mums after the school run, making the golf courses appealing to, as you say, the de junior demographic. You know there is no doubt there is interest in the game for lots of reasons. But if you're being told, don't come in any jeans for sure don't bring your mobile, like you're going to limit the appeal to people. So it's not. Our role is to deliver a tour for our members, but working with people like, as I said, the RNA and the USGA and others and the PGA's who you know help through the pros. It's all about an evolving process. If we know there is interest in the sport, we've got to make it more appealing. We've got to make it more interest in whatever way you want to consume it. People may not want to sit down and watch four hours of golf covering, but if we can create compelling content with players who do help us, with celebrities who love the game, you know it's at the Ryder Cup. We played for the first ever time the junior Ryder Cup singles on the Ryder Cup course itself on the Thursday morning, and that was to inspire them, but inspire others. I remember Luke. They came a few days early to practice and Luke led the guys over the walkway that all the superstars were going to walk later in the week, walked them out into this amphitheater of the first tee where you've got six, seven thousand people making as much noise as possible to be. And when you're teeing off from here in two days time, I mean again, you can imagine they were wide eyed and boy did they respond. I mean it was the Ryder Cup junior Ryder Cup team played really well as well.
Speaker 2:So you're quite right, it is our job and people, a lot of people talk about it and go yes, no, we've got to attract the junior audience. But it is the job of everyone who works in the game, in whatever capacity it is, to make it accessible. And you know the RNA have done a lot of that. We've tried to. You know we have the challenge to show a pathway for good amateurs to then get into pro ranks to achieve where they want to get at the top of the game. Rna have done a lot of this to try with programs. We all want to try and find a way. We at the tour have school outreach programs. We go out to schools. Whenever we go to a tournament we go out. We have strong sustainability views. So we want to be relevant because people aren't going to be drawn to the sport unless you are sustainable environmentally and you support the you know the golfer disabled to also bring people in and get them to see what it means to be at a tournament. They'd even work in the sport.
Speaker 2:So I would say that that the sport has made hugely in recent years. I've seen it for a very, very long time and I think there's been a recognition that those are the most important audiences to draw in. I'm glad you're playing golf. You can play any sport you like. You've been drawn to golf. I mean you. However badly you play, it won't be as bad as me. And I've been around it. I've learned you can't soak up a great swing by osmosis, sadly, but otherwise it would have got just stood slightly closer to the track.
Speaker 2:Everyone wants to believe that one. Everyone, sadly. No, it's down to hard work. For the truth is it is a tough sport because you know you do have to work hard to get good at it. But as long as you make it appealing to everyone and they, they get to learn and they can go for lessons with the club pro and they could aspire to come to events and enjoy events. And you know we, we build villages at these tournaments to make sure that people come with their families so that they can have a great experience and not just be defined by that. So I think the sport record, the sport, is in a state of change. That can only be a good thing, um, and as long as it makes it more appealing. You know, we know the the limitations. How can you make the game more and more robust and more appealing? It's down to everyone involved in it in some way or another.
Speaker 1:How have you found that as you've expanded into new countries? How have you found that the demographics changed around the world as you start to as events and new countries do similar events like? You talked to me through a bit the demographic both on the DP World tour side and also on the rider cart and how you've seen that transition over the past years and where that's headed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very interesting. The the rider cup is played on European soil and where we choose to go, um, it is something that is thought about very carefully If you look at how the game has grown as as as, as people know, the biggest golfing market worldwide is North America, um, and then you have very strong markets, as we said, in Japan, in GBN Island, uh, across continental Europe. But the sport has grown and you see governments recognizing the appeal of a golfing economy. So people have built golf courses across the Middle East, in Thailand, in China, in, in Australia, wonderful golf courses same with South Africa, and they build a golfing tourism business. And and there's a statistic which shows golf tourists spend a lot more, seven, eight times more than a regulatory. But to capture the imagination in that sport, one, you've got to televise it there. Two, you've got to take events there, build the courses, and often you get the you, um, you often get the real interest by visiting superstars. So we've been incredibly lucky, from the sixties on, arnold Palmer, gary player, jack Nicholas, they traveled the world, they played all over the world and then we had the man who transformed the sport beyond any recognition. We've all been incredibly lucky. We lived through the tiger era and everyone in the sport should go and shake his hand every day, because he took the sport to somewhere that no one ever believed and we never thought that golf would have the global athlete in it. And he traveled, and he all many of the other superstars that we've been lucky enough to have by then traveling. You then capture the imagination in that market that hopefully then breeds homegrown town and suddenly you have players emerging in that country and I, I could lean it. They weren't played there. Then you have super stock Korean players, male and female. You have Chinese players coming through, you have all of us. So the way it works is we like to play our events where it works for our members, so it might play when it's good weather. Can't play in Europe all the time, so go around the world, play on wonderful golf courses. Well, that's enough. Those are being built Attract. You know, let's be honest, the crowds come out to cheer on a tiger or a Rory or a John Rahm or whoever it may be, but they also come out to in New Zealand. You know they want to see their heroes there. So you do it through a mixture of that and then you try and make sure that it's a true global tour, and all of those elements come to play.
Speaker 2:The Ryder Cup is slightly different, because the Ryder Cup, as you know, had been played. It gets played at great courses around North America and then it had been played in a lot of very good British golf courses. But as the event grew and it was at the Belfry for many years and it was a wonderful venue there, but there was a recognition we need to take this further One. Look at what the Europeans have done. So it went to Scotland for the first time. It went to Wales the first time McWale first time but it also then went to France. It went to Spain first. It then went to France. It's been to Italy and you'll see wherever it goes. And there's an element to which you want to go to, where you can stage an amazing event.
Speaker 2:But you also want to leave a legacy. And what is that legacy? Well, the legacy in France was a lot of urban golf courses. A lot of roads got built in Italy around the course just in time, but they got built and they will be there for the locals to enjoy.
Speaker 2:But you really want to see the sport, to capture the imagination of the people. You want to see juniors coming through. Of course you want to see more other people, the older generation, playing at the golf clubs. There's a huge value in that. So what your real legacy is, you want them to have that. They want juniors who went along to watch that event to be inspired to go and play golf so that there is a next generation of great hopefully Spanish, french, Italian players coming through. So it's a sort of dual responsibility between tour and rider cut. They're not dissimilar in principle, but there is a limit for us Europeans. The European rider cut needs to be played in continental Europe. The DP World Tour goes through every corner and that's a good thing, and you work with local tours there because sanction there. So it's a sort of dual approach.
Speaker 1:At both the rider cup and the DP World Tour level. I mean, as you were saying with Tidal Woods, the brand and the messages and what they represent. The players probably the most important thing or one of the most important things in the game. But when they're so involved, how do you balance between taking on their advice and what they say? And then I'm not going to mention these specific players, but when they sidetrack or perhaps don't present themselves in the best manner, that can then have a negative impact on the tour or on the rider cut. So how do you balance them being an ambassador and a voice for the sport, but also saying we don't agree with their views, or how?
Speaker 2:do you balance? Generally, we're very lucky. I mean to be honest, most of the players we have are wonderful ambassadors. They recognize the value and helping to grow the game because it will be good for the game as a whole. They also build their own brands and therefore, you know, whatever any player does, whatever impacts on that person's brand, we have to remember they are from multiple, different nations, different personalities, ages, male, female, whatever and that means that you know, you have to accept that golf is an individual sport. They come together.
Speaker 2:The rider cut works because team golf is, you know, when the rider cut played. It's a rarity and that's why people love it and it wouldn't work if you did it every week. So what you're doing, therefore, is going. You know it's an individual sport. Embrace the fact that there are different individuals. You know there is.
Speaker 2:Although Tiger was pretty dominant, other players still won then, and so you know there are always new people on the leaderboard, new leaders. So it's almost an essence of the sport that, whilst the players can work with us, they are the stars. They will define how the sport is seen. They also are individuals and they will act in the same way, and we all know golf's a tough thing. They're on display for four or five hours and you know they have to cope with adversity and get unlucky. You can play really well and the ball takes a funny bounce, whatever. So we expect a lot of them. They generally deliver really well. We are incredibly lucky that these players not only play beautifully but conduct themselves as ambassadors, help film content and do things that just change the perception of the sport. So I think we're. I think golf is in a very good place in terms of its talent.
Speaker 1:Have you ever thought this could also be a stupid question? So if you've got this already, but have you ever thought of doing like a sort of like drive to survive? You know, like they didn't form it on, but for golf we have one.
Speaker 2:We have one Yep.
Speaker 2:Full swing is going. Season two will be released in February. I'm told it was the fastest recommissioned Netflix series. Season one was very successful and season two is has been I think it's been is being finished now and will be released, and it's a real asset to have. It takes the sport to a different demographic and so we'll see. I'm really looking forward to season two and you know I'm not that the target audience and they aren't dull. I work in the sport. It's attracting people who aren't drawn to it, but we have great personalities and they focused on those and I think it'll be. I think it'll. You know, if we can emulate the drive to survive success, then we'll be very yeah.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about that, because even that, and things like YouTube as well, where you know the fans, they see the players playing, but they're going to see them more personal side, or their funny side, I think officer a unique experience and it's not just these random robots playing golf, but these people with personalities and the biggest reaction we've had is to some of the content that we've created and it is world-class content, but it only works because the players are so good and they give it their time and they're very funny.
Speaker 2:But you're absolutely right, it shows personalities. It should, otherwise it's difficult to tell on a course. Some people are very demonstrative, some are quiet, but if you get to see what they're really like and that's our job, to tell the story, because we do have wonderful players If you tell the story and most of them recognize there's a value in giving up some time. So we know we've won awards with some of the stuff that we've done and we will continue to do that because I think it puts the sport in the right sort of environment.
Speaker 1:What's sorry, last few questions.
Speaker 2:I said I am going to have to wrap up in a moment because I'm meant to be on another call.
Speaker 1:So if I can, oh, of course I'll ask you. I'll ask you then one last, well, two last questions. Well, I'll wrap in one what's your dream for the Ryder Cup in an ideal world? What's next to golf and what's next for you?
Speaker 2:Okay, dream for Ryder Cup is I just want it to improve. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful property. I'm privileged to work on it. I want it to improve every event and every home cycle. So we're all responsible. So we've just come off of an unbelievable success in Rome. I want it to be even better in Ireland and I think it can be because there is this It'll be amazing crowds to go to Ireland. It's a wonderful venue. Jayman Manis is venue at the end.
Speaker 2:So I'm very hopeful that the Ryder Cup will grow and improve. I think for the tour, my view is that we are a formative moment in the development of the tour. I think we have an opportunity to pull the game together at the professional level and make it even a better and more appealing product, and if we can do that, then that will be better for the game. And for me personally. You know what, as I said, I am so lucky, I'm blessed, I enjoy what I do. If I can keep enjoying which I believe I will everything I do around tour and Ryder Cup, then I consider myself very lucky. So I think that would be my goal.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I feel hugely privileged to have been able to talk to you today. I feel like I've learned so much. It's now just 7am, 7.30am where I am. You are very early bird.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, I've really enjoyed that. That was fascinating, very good question, amazing, thank you. Brilliant. Thanks, bobby.