The TeleWellness Hub Podcast

Ep 62 Embracing Financial Wellness: Hanna Morrell on Building Self-Trust and Transforming Your Money Mindset

• Martamaria Hamilton

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Unlock the door to financial self-trust with Hanna Morrell, our returning guest who brings her deep understanding as a holistic, trauma-informed financial coach to the Telewellness Hub. She offers an inspiring look into her own journey towards separating self-worth from the bank account balance and introduces us to the groundbreaking Pacific Stoa Financial Wellness Curriculum. As Hanna walks us through her interactive workbooks, you'll see how a personalized, shame-free approach to money management can transform the way you handle your finances. Our dialogue spans emotional intelligence in fiscal matters and the creation of money systems that truly fit with who you are and how you live.

Have you ever felt the sting of perceived financial loss, or found yourself putting off budgeting? We're here to show that there's a playful, engaging side to managing money. I share strategies designed to make financial decision-making less daunting and more like an exciting game, one that even kids can join in on to develop their own savvy early on. This episode empowers you to adopt an 'expected spending' mindset, turning budgeting into a fulfilling activity rather than a source of stress. Together with Hanna, we explore how embracing this mindset can lend a sense of control and intention to your spending, even amidst life's unpredictability.

Navigating the waters of procrastination and financial resilience need not be a solitary journey. We examine why delaying financial tasks is often a form of self-protection, and how nurturing self-compassion is crucial when our financial equilibrium is thrown off balance. Hanna presents her 45-day workbook as a tool for those ready to recalibrate their money mindset and habits. At the close, Hanna extends a warm invitation to continue the conversation beyond the podcast, providing her contact information for anyone eager to deepen their financial wellness. So tune in, and take the first steps towards crafting a relationship with money that's as healthy as it is fulfilling.

Love what you heard and wish you could work with someone like Hanna?! We have great news! You can connect with her and get started on your financial wellness journey today!
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Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Telewellness Hub podcast. I'm Marty Hamilton, your host, and today we get to speak with Hanna Morrell. She's a repeat guest. We got to talk earlier on in season one. She comes from yourworthcoachcom. She's the founder of that. She's a holistic, trauma-informed financial coach who helps individuals and couples build customized, adaptable money systems while learning to trust themselves with money. She is the author of two interactive workbooks the 45-Day Financial Wellness Workbook and the System Building Workbook. Hanna is the creator of the Pacific Stoa Financial Wellness Curriculum. This is an innovative curriculum. It's the first of its kind to combine money mechanics with the soft skills that it takes to implement and integrate money systems into a person or couple's life all without shame, judgment, accountability or restriction. So thank you so much for joining again, hannah.

Hanna Morrell:

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Marta.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, I love connecting with you in season one and just I loved talking to you a little bit about what brought you here. But some people might have might not have listened to that episode yet and so for those listening, could you share, and start with why do you do the wellness work that you do?

Hanna Morrell:

Excellent question and something I could fill up hours talking about, but I'll keep it brief for your listeners, mostly because I have a history of not trusting myself with money Like I know what it's like to sort of be on the razor's edge of my finances, to make plenty of money and not be a huge spender but also still somehow never be able to quite get caught up. And I was definitely. I knew I was missing something. I reached out to the financial services world and I got sold product and actually got sold a career. So I actually was part of the financial services world for a hot minute and then very quickly became disillusioned from that. I was asking them for something very specific. I was asking I need you to help me disconnect my self-worth from my finances. And they said you need to make more money, and I was frustrated with that. Of course there was deep, deep anger for that over a while, but it wasn't their job. That's not the job of financial services.

Hanna Morrell:

So I endeavored to find something that would help me do what I knew that I needed to do and I didn't find it. And then there was a moment of dark realization. I was like, oh, I have to make this and I started to do that. I started to gather some tools together that I needed why is my decision making like this? And, pretty quickly afterwards, brought on my first client. So I went from having this be a little collection of life hacks to teach myself, um, to being, uh, a full and very expansive curriculum that works. Um, it's like a choose your own adventure book. I don't know if you remember this. Um, yeah, that's um to to meet people exactly where they are, to teach them how to trust themselves and build financial systems and strategies around themselves that they that work for their lives, because they were built for their lives yeah, no, I love that because I think there's so much value when someone can relate to to what you're going through.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

I think when it comes to money especially, I mean we're not really taught in schools, for example, the ins and outs of right. The running joke is like okay, well, I learned all about the comes to money especially, I mean we're not really taught in schools, for example, the ins and outs of right. The running joke is like okay, well, I learned all about the history of I don't know something but I don't know about taxes right and then we get out into I don't know how to file my taxes.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

You get out into the world and all of a sudden I mean you're having to manage or handle a lot of different money systems and deadlines and it can be really overwhelming and there's no handbook per se. So I love that you have a workbook that is a choose your own adventure curriculum approach to to money, because, especially right now, right before recording, I mentioned briefly, you know there's a lot of concern surrounding the housing market and the increased cost of goods just inflation right going to the grocery store and there is a lot of uncertainty. So what a great time to learn some skills to trust yourself with money. And so I was so grateful that you were you're coming on to talk with us a little bit because you know, especially I'm I love your sign in the background. We'll make sure to put an E on this episode.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

The restriction is bullshit, yeah, you know, cause it's. It's scary to think about. Like okay, I have to restrict, like things are getting, like finances are hard. Talk to me a little bit about that sign and your work with helping people trust themselves with money and what restriction has to do with all that.

Hanna Morrell:

Yeah, thank you. That's a wonderful question. Restriction is available to us right? It's the first kind of financial I'm doing air quotes here tool that we learn is that if things are going a little bit off kilter or sideways, or a lot sideways, our first thing, the first thing we do is we got to tighten the spells, we've got to shut it down. No more having fun, no eating out. No, no birthday parties, nothing. So we leverage restriction because it's kind of the only tool that we've been given.

Hanna Morrell:

It is not a good tool, it's a terrible tool for decision-making and it reinforces scarcity in our brains. I'm never going to have enough, I'm never going to be enough, I'm never going to work hard enough. It kind of doubles down on our brains for the lack of a totally unscientific language, our brain's freaking out. It doubles down on the freaking out and it feels like action, it feels like we're doing something, but ultimately it's sort of it's counterproductive. So restriction is kind of like making decisions if you are under the influence, like we make super fast decisions. They're super reactive. We're kind of not super thoughtful about that and very often the way to get ourselves out of a disruption or a slump is to actually turn our brains on, not turn them off again. And that's what restriction does, is it turns off our brains. Our brains either make decisions super, super fast or crazy, like glacially slow, and what we need is kind of a sweet spot in our decision making. Before I carry on, what questions do you have, marta, about what I just said? I want to make sure.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, no, thank you, because I definitely have questions. Or just you mentioning that it puts our mind into the scarcity, you know, kind of into scarcity mode and in freak out mode, and then our decision making isn't really wise and we're not able to like kind of slow down because I think that makes perfect sense, because I restriction so often can be kind of like like punishment right, like for yourself, in a way.

Hanna Morrell:

Teach myself a lesson.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah. So I could see how that brings up a lot of like negative self-talk and could impact so many areas in your life, especially if you have a partner. Right. I'm starting to think like okay, now you both have to be on board with the scarcity model and now, like you're punishing yourself, you've got negative self-talk Like are you also doing now like out loud talk, negative talk to your partner about money?

Hanna Morrell:

I could see feed off of each other. Yeah, absolutely.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, I could see how, how it's so hard, um, how it creates a really difficult environment, right, um, this, this restriction. But you're so right, I think that's kind of the first first go to like what can I cut out um order to to make this work? And when you mentioned the, the why you do the wellness work, you do that. They told you, well, you need to figure out how to make more money.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

It's funny, I was just having a conversation with, uh, a family member this weekend and they had gone to get some financial advisement and that's the first thing they said you need to figure out a way to make more money. Which is like, okay, well, how do we do this? You know, like it's it puts, it's it feels it feels like you're missing out on some kind of secret that people understand or know about. Yeah, so so I guess, more than a question, I just wanted to like say that so much that you said resonated, but my, I guess my first initial question is if it's not restriction, then what is it that people could lean into?

Hanna Morrell:

yeah, I'm not going to take a restriction away from me and not give you something in return. Yeah, well, and because very often if I say restriction as bullshit restriction doesn't work, people see like, okay, what's the opposite of restriction? And that's just willy-nilly spending without thoughtfulness, without just kind of going nuts, and that binary is kind of false. Right, there is a third option, but we don't often think about it and that's called expected spending, and that's what a budget is built around, is the expectation of spending. So I'm gonna give you a scenario and I want you to kind of tell me what the difference is between these two scenarios. So let's say I'm gonna go to the grocery store tonight and I tell myself I can't spend more than $100. That's condition number one. Condition number two is I'm going to spend exactly $100. That's condition number one. Condition number two is I'm going to spend exactly $100. And which one of those two conditions do you think I'll make better, more thoughtful, slower choices?

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Definitely that I'm going to spend $100. Sounds like an opportunity to use your money rather than I got to keep it under $100. Right.

Hanna Morrell:

Yeah, and this is at this level. This is just a word game, right, we're just kind of like telling our brains a little lie. But it works because, like, how we move through the world with restriction is that sort of scarcity, that sort of urgency, the sort of desperation that comes along with it, but with expected, like expected spending, we are practicing thoughtfulness. I'll make different choices in those two conditions, and on the restriction condition, I'm also going to fall prey to something called loss aversion. I can explain more if needed, but I don't want to get too far off track.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Is this in any of your workbooks, by the way, not in the ones?

Hanna Morrell:

that I made it can be. I can make a workbook for you. I can absolutely. For you listeners, I can make a workbook that kind of talks about this like the difference between restriction.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

I'd expect it's been a no problem, no-transcript, they don't need a workbook per se, but we can definitely just share a little bit about an overview.

Hanna Morrell:

It would be fine so loss aversion, that sort of desperation thing is our brain's natural tendency to perceive losses more than we perceive gains. The example I like to use is I was teaching a group class not last year sometime and let's say there's 20 participants in this class. It was an in-person class and somebody had donated big, big, big bags of Starbucks coffee. They're like the really big ones. This is not. I'm sorry, didn't mean to plug. So let's say there's 18 bags of coffee and 20 people. Those two people are likely to perceive the fact that they didn't get coffee as a loss. Did anybody go to their house and remove coffee? No, were they expecting coffee when they walked in and didn't get some? No, but our brains will perceive that as a loss.

Hanna Morrell:

So let's go back to my grocery shopping thing. So let's say I can't spend more than a hundred dollars I'm working under that condition and make it to the checkout line and it's $112. I've got to put something back. My brain is going to lose it because now I'm putting back my blueberries or whatever right. So it's going to register to my brain as a loss and that is deeply concerning and disturbing to our brain. So we don't respond well to that. In the expected spending condition. If I'm spending, if my expectation that I'm going to spend exactly a hundred dollars or let's go less my expectation is to spend exactly $90, then I will make better decisions. As I'm shopping, I will consider things and reject them. I will do math. I'm trying to find a goal to hit exactly $90. And if I'm putting stuff back on the shelf, it's less likely to register as a loss.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Do you have any tips or tools for people in the grocery scenario, for example, what they're going to practice? They listen to this, they're hearing you and they're saying okay, today when I go grocery shopping, I will listen to Hannah, I'm going to work on my worth and I'm going to put this into practice. With expected spending, I will be spending $90. Do you have any tips or tools? Like do you recommend they actually like write down the costs or have a calculator with them, or what recommendations would you make?

Hanna Morrell:

Absolutely. Calculator is going to help with this, but I think the biggest tool that you can leverage in this is the mindset part of this, and that's to treat this like a game, cause all of a sudden we have permission to spend and that just lifts off the that you can almost I'm. I love when I teach my clients this through a deeper version of this which I can include in the workbook for you folks. It's like you. Almost always people go, they have permission to spend, right, there's an expectation of it and that changes the way that our brains function. So I would say treat this like a game. So let's say I expect I'm going to spend exactly $90 and I hit 92 or 87. Does that actually matter? Not really.

Hanna Morrell:

This was just a game, right, so treating it like a game. If you want to play this with kids, especially like kids over the age of about eight, you can send them off into the grocery store looking for something that costs $5 and 25 cents. Right that they're. They're aiming for an exact dollar amount or all total kid, come back to me with things that total $10. And we're doing a bunch of stuff there, right, we're working on math skills and number recognition, but also teaching them that there's an that we expect to spend, no more, no less. But even if you don't hit it, I'm like who cares? Right, this is just a game. So treating it like a game takes that pressure off.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, I love that. You know I have nine-year-old twins and so they're right at that age frame where they're starting to, yeah, think about money. And you know we talked earlier we don't really necessarily learn how to, how to navigate money as a curriculum in school. How amazing if we could help shape and mold the wiring of brains because what you're describing is so true, so much as how we are have wired our brains to think about money and spending and restriction, if we could look at um as a game and even shared as a family but for the kids, and start that wiring about how to, how to look at and, like you mentioned, the mindset behind money. What a gift that is, you know, in terms for parents out there yeah, and it's easy.

Hanna Morrell:

You don't have to like sit them down and teach them. Like, hello child, sit down, I'm going to teach you a life lesson. I don't know, they don't respond really well to that. Yeah, but this is a game, right? This is, this is um addressable to them. They can, they can understand that.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Keep it age appropriate, of course, like a three-year-old is going to understand this differently than a nine-year-old but um, yeah, this is a way that we can like reinforce it to ourselves as we're teaching it to our kids too yeah, I love that when, when it comes to trusting yourself and um, coming back instead of doing restriction but expected spending, especially after a big life disruption right, we're talking job loss, maybe poor financial investment, decision making, closed business, different things Divorce.

Hanna Morrell:

Divorce.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yeah, a big life disruption where what we expected to happen is no longer actually what we're faced with. What kind of insight do you give people or recommendations Granted? I know every individual case is different, but just in general, yeah.

Hanna Morrell:

There's a bunch of different tools that I use when I'm working with folks who are going through a big disruption. Divorce, separation, are kind of the the my, what I work with a lot, but, yeah, closing up a business or like having to move or a health emergency are all really good examples of that. One of the biggest tools I think of is a way to understand how do I say this correctly A way to understand when we can't make decisions, because very often in these high stakes situations, we kind of feel like we need to make all the decisions at once. We kind of feel like we need to make all the decisions at once, um, and this is yeah, it's very like we get frustrated and we get psyched, pulled into that cycle. You got to do it. I'm going to make the decision fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. Um, and one of the ways to sort of begin to make decisions when you're more able to make decisions I don't feel like I'm saying this clearly, but I'm getting, I'm going somewhere is to kind of like think about, think about a scale from plus five to minus five. Plus five is heck, yes. Minus five is heck, no. And you can use the effort to. I use the effort but I won't do it now Cause that's a lot of bombs for one podcast. So it will and to kind of evaluate yourself on desire and capacity, especially capacity if you're recovering from something frail or disruptive.

Hanna Morrell:

So what is my capacity to make this decision right now, right? Is my capacity a minus two, then maybe I don't need to make this decision right now, right, and kind of waiting until our capacities are a little bit higher. My capacity is now plus one. I can practice making decisions in a place bit higher. My capacity is now plus one. I can practice making decisions in a place where I have higher capacity. Does that mean we now suddenly are only able to make decisions when our capacity is higher? No, absolutely not. We're still going to be subjected to the things where we have to make decisions outside of our capacity. But if you don't understand what your capacity is, you can't be respectful of it. So that's like giving your capacity a number and appreciating it and sort of accepting your capacity in the moment. You can't really know what your capacity is 20 minutes from now, but you could probably take your temperature on your capacity right now and then to be respectful of that as much as you can, of course.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

That's incredibly empowering. Yeah, and that's empowering, and especially in a situation where maybe there's some something unexpected, a major life disruption that you don't expect to be able to pause and give yourself a scale to assess. You're so right. What you wrote about, what you mentioned about capacity, I wrote. I wrote it down because there is a sense of urgency, like I've got, I've got to make.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Yes, and that is you know, we know from research so disruptive to our brain when it comes to everything from cortisol levels. Brain, when it comes to everything from cortisol levels, you know, literally on a biological level, we can do a saliva swab and people's cortisol is through the roof, which impacts so much physical health decision making. All of that, you're more likely to make errors and that's so cyclical, like I need to urgently make these decisions to fix. Yeah, how terrible, yeah, to have to be in that loop.

Hanna Morrell:

And both the expected spending and like the understanding and appreciating your own capacity helps us learn and or reinforce that we can be trusted. On the flip side, like what you just said, like if we're making decisions from that super fast state and we're kind of freaked out, we will make decisions that reinforce that we cannot be trusted. And if we're slowing things down a little bit, being graceful and patient with ourselves, respecting our capacity as much as possible, we instead reinforce that we can be trusted. And that is like instead of spiraling down, we are spiraling up and it's a gentle process. If you're in recovery from a big disruption, it can take some time. I know it doesn't. I don't ever want it to. I get impatient, um, but it does take some time and being gentle with yourself and patient with yourself, it's just about the only way through that I know so yeah, no, that makes perfect, perfect sense, because you're highlighting a really important thing that the disruption in and of itself could be very stressful.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

So to add to that that urgency and the and all the ways and the mistrust of yourself does not, does not help. Talk to me about procrastination, because you're an expert in this area, too, when it comes to trusting yourself with money. Procrastination, because you're an expert in this area, too, when it comes to trusting yourself with money. Talk to me a little bit about procrastination how you see it come up as a challenge for your clients and how you see them overcome it.

Hanna Morrell:

Procrastination presents in lots of different parts of our lives right Procrastination, financial procrastination one version of that is debt. Right, but we have procrastinations in all sorts of parts of our lives not doing the dishes, but we have procrastinations in all sorts of parts of our lives not doing the dishes, for example. So for most folks, procrastination doesn't hit just one domain of their life. It typically echoes out Procrastination and I'm going to get some hate from this because I'm going to talk about self-care for just a second. So procrastination and self-care have some similarities. They're not the same thing, but they are very, very closely related. They are both in service of the right now version of ourselves. To sometimes procrastination, especially to the detriment of future versions of ourselves, whether that's tomorrow or 10 years from now, that's all. Procrastination is taking care of ourselves in the right now at the detriment of future versions of ourselves, and that, like we were talking about trusting ourselves, absolutely undermines our resilience, our ability to trust ourselves, and so procrastination is something that we perceive as a personality defect. And it's absolutely not a personality defect. It's a protective strategy for some cases, and there's when I work with my clients. There's a protective strategy for some cases and when I work with my clients. There's a gigantic cycle around it that we talk about, this big model that sort of maps out the pattern of procrastination.

Hanna Morrell:

That kind of lives in all of our heads and we don't know that it's living in everybody else's head too. So we feel very isolated. We feel like we're the only ones on the planet that are doing this. And what the hell is wrong with me? Why can't I just get it together and do the dishes? We also implement restriction around procrastination. We will try to eliminate opportunities for relief for ourselves, which further freaks out our funny little brains and makes it harder and harder for us to make decisions. So procrastination and I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm doing it intentionally Procrastination is not a personality defect, it's kind of a reaction. And because it's hard sometimes to tell the difference between procrastination and self-care like, am I putting off the dishes because I'm practicing self-care? Am I putting off the dishes because I'm a procrastinating piece of garbage? Right, it's hard to tell the difference between the two. So sometimes we have lots of shame and judgment that feeds in there as well, which could undermine our ability to practice self-care.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

So, yes, no, I think that so much of what you bring up is so. It affects so many domains of our lives. Like you mentioned, the procrastination and even trusting yourself if there's a big disruption and money is part of you know how we pay to feed ourselves and our in our and what we do for fun, so I can see why, yes, so much is.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

It's so intertwined and so complex. And I think I love that you have a holistic approach because it's different than you know going to looking at your accounting and looking at a ledger. It's not like you mentioned. It's not all black or white, it's not binary. There's, there's, there are feelings and thoughts and upbringings and life circumstances and goals that vary person to person, that have to be accounted for. So that's why I've been fascinated by the work you do since I since I met you. Thank you so much, yeah, yeah, no, and I, I'm, I, I want to um, I know we're getting close on time If you could share a little bit about the workbooks you've done, so people can learn about what, what, what it involves, what it, what they can learn from it and where they can access them and get in contact with you.

Hanna Morrell:

So the the 45 day workbook is is designed to kind of be sort of the first session or two that I have with my clients. It's not, of course. Yeah, it's kind of talking through like mindset around money. It talks about the beginning stages of tracking, tracking spending, Um, and it's something that could be moved through in 45 days or you could just literally just flip around it and like it doesn't have, um, it doesn't have a structure to it, which could be sort of frustrating sometimes.

Hanna Morrell:

But if it's meant to be sort which can be sort of frustrating sometimes, but if it's meant to be sort of a journal and sort of a roadmap at the same time, so it can be messed around with as much as you like, there's an option in there that you can do multiple of them in a row and that you could kind of reflect back. There's even a part of it says if this is your second or progressive one I think this is language um, what were your reflections on the first one? So people can go into end 45 days, 45 days, 45 days, or they can take a break in the middle and it it's meant to sort of adapt with you if you've done it more than once, I believe that yeah, it's a yeah, just to create an awareness, because it's probably hard to make changes if without that initial reflection and awareness.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

So I love that. That's a great starting point.

Hanna Morrell:

Yeah, the daily journal prompts are pretty gentle. They're really, really focused around the mindset of things. I believe it's still for Sal Renzi, but if you email me I will just send it to you. Don't go pay for it. The other one is a system building workbook and that I developed, actually for therapists, but of course they modified it so that it would be useful for everybody.

Hanna Morrell:

Very often the systems that we have around us whether it's a financial system or like an exercise routine type system we tend to evaluate ourselves when we are system building and that doesn't work. If you're trying to comply with a system, it's probably going to fail. I don't know if you or any of your listeners have tried to print out the percentage-based budgets like spend 20% of your income on blankety blank, whatever those last for about six weeks and then don't work, and then we really don't. We evaluate ourselves like I can't keep with that. This way of system building is focused on evaluating the system itself and iterating through that process. And by not evaluating our own performance, our own productivity, by evaluating how the system is complying with our lives, you can literally build any system, whether that's a budgeting system or like a marketing system or a health, I don't know. Pick a thing. You can build a system around it.

Hanna Morrell:

Systematize system nope, that's the word. Systematize, no, forget it. Systemization. There it is. I got it. It took me a couple of tries, and building routines around us that adapt and fit into our life, I think is probably one of the best ways that we can adapt and change and and make our lives a little bit easier. And that one also, that one, that one I think you'll need to email me through. I don't think I have that. That's just a, just a resource I have. It might be on the website.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Okay, okay, yeah, I'll just confirm with you because I I think that's incredible for people who maybe are listening and want to get just jump in. So that they can, we'll make sure to put the link at least to the one on Etsy, for example, that workbook so they can just kind of jump in and get started and and start a system, because I think you're right, systems are so helpful in anything, and how awesome to have something that's gentle enough with yourself, that recognizes the feelings, the thoughts, all the belief systems when it comes to money, while being effective as well. So, hannah, what's the best way for people to get in contact with you?

Hanna Morrell:

Folks are welcome to email me. I am Hannah H-A-N-N-A at Pacific Stoa. That's Pacific, like the ocean, and then S, as in Sam T-O-Acom. You're also welcome to text me. I'm at 5 0, 3, 9, 0, 8, 3, 4, 2, 5. Or you can go to the website yourworthcoachcom, and there's like all websites and there's a thousand opportunities to reach out to me through there. Just depends on um you know how much back and forth you want with me, but um I welcome questions, feedback, um. I'd be grateful for for that from your listeners wonderful.

Martamaria Hamilton- TeleWellness Hub:

Well, hannah, thank you so much for joining and for being a part of our wellness journey today. Thank you.