Ghana with Eric Kumeh Mensah and Emmanuel Tomude

In this podcast we take a look at Ghana, where landscapes are changing as mining and industrialisation affect traditional ways of managing the land. We look at the impact on cocoa and the effectiveness of global regulations on preventing deforestation and contrast these with traditional community methods.

The Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is interested in promoting a wide variety of views and opinions on nature recovery from researchers and practitioners.

The views, opinions and positions expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers alone, they do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery, or its researchers.

The work of the Leverhulme Centre for Nature Recovery is made possible thanks to the support of the Leverhulme Trust.

Transcript

stephen thomas: 0:05

Welcome to the nature recovery podcast, we're going to take a closer look at some of the solutions to counter biodiversity decline. And we'll find out more about the people behind these ideas. Hello, and welcome to the nature recovery podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Thomas. And this week, we're going to be finding out about Garner with my friends, Eric van Selassie, one of the things I love about this podcast is I get to eradicate my own ignorance. I knew very little about Ghana, going hopefully it's all okay to your ears. I will do better next week. All right, let's hear from Eric, as I say. Hello, and welcome to the nature recovery Podcast. I'm really, really delighted today that I'm joined by two very special guests, Eric Kimmie Mensa and Emmanuel Selassie comedy. And they are going to be here we're gonna be talking about Ghana, but not only Ghana, the natural Ghana. And some of the

Erik Kumeh Mensah: 1:43

Yeah. Hello, Steven, thank you so much for hosting us. It's a pleasure to be here. So I work on the governance of nature recovery, land use and sustainable supply chains. I focus a lot on Ghana. And what that means, basically, is I'm interested in who makes decisions when it comes

Emmanuel Tomude: 2:15

Thank you very much, Steven. Yeah, my name is Emmanuel, Salah cetology Busman, formerly known as Selassie simple. And I'm also working on the Agile sprint three programme, and which is basically focusing on scaling up in ERP solution, looking at extend where we can scale up

stephen thomas: 2:34

Well, thank you. Thank you both, very much. So I'm gonna start. So yeah, we're gonna be finding out more about Garner, Garner, Ghana is a fascinating country and something place I don't know too much about. It's the ninth richest country in Africa, by GDP forced about 16 by GDP per things would stand out? What What can you give us a flavour of what God is like to live and work in?

Unknown: 3:32

Yeah, so in Ghana is a really fascinating place to live. It's, it's a paradise on earth, I would say. It's a country of abundance, abundance of everything, you know, from forests to Savannah, you know, huge diversity of people. But, you know, apart from all this personally, what what was I stood out to her. And I couldn't agree more. Personally, it's the people that makes a difference for Ghana. Thank you very much. On that, looking at, I'm coming from this guy in the south of Ghana, which is the western part of Ghana recently was divided into two we have the north, the North, Northwestern, or the western North. Yeah. And it's quite interesting when you come from the western part of Canada, southern part of China to mine, and having their families raise there. So they also find these places very interesting, and some have lived there. For almost four decades of application, they find this place is very interesting in describing Ghana has to be one of the best place to live on ATM.

stephen thomas: 5:38

Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean, it looking at pictures of it. I mean, that's, you know, clean, vibrant, lush, tropical, some amazing architecture, you know, pretty idyllic, and it sounds like yeah, you've got lots of lots of vegetation, and also lots of diverse communities coming might, I might be able to see them

Unknown: 6:20

for western part of Ghana, we can say to live in western part of Ghana is more or less like to live with nature, we live with nature. So in as much as agriculture goes on, in those places, and mining going on in those places, we're also very concerned with the environment, the environment because they also needed to know that these are also kind of provide an order essential, such as social ecosystem services to them. Yeah, providing shades, and beautifying environments. They also know these kinds of techniques of putting those environment clean in terms of how we should should be

stephen thomas: 7:20

Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, so connected, already connected to the environment, maybe without giving the scientific literature, this kind of sense of people being deeply connected and appreciating of the beautiful nature of this now,

Unknown: 7:34

it's different, I think a lot will depend on, you know, you know, what, what excites you, you know, there used to be 10 regions in Ghana on to very recently, and I've lived and our work in nine of them. And so, Ghana, Ghana is so diverse, you know, from the whole of the coast, you can very much in touch with nature. Very, it's a very amazing result. And beyond that, also, even in the Volta Region where originally come from also, you have this kind of encounter. But there you have more mangrove forests. Also, there's this really interesting place called Meet me there, it's around that that might be for you with some really beautiful waterfalls, the highest waterfall in in West Africa is there, they will be false. And then you move further up, you know, as you move further up, the vegetation also begins to thin so you move from a sort of a high forest zone to Savannah. And And if I guess that kind of what, what what do you have in terms of the, you know, the large herbivores and predators what kind of? Yeah, so you have some of the big five. You have elephants for sure there are lions also. You have lots and lots of ungulates, lots and lots of antelopes, and lots and lots of primates also. So, yeah, you should you should go for a hike and I see these amazing waterfalls and then I keep going on so far. I mean, that's like, that's my, you know,

stephen thomas: 10:15

if the funding allows. That's my next two weeks. Yeah. So

Unknown: 10:20

beautiful. And I mean, you hinted, also, again, you talked a bit about mining and agriculture. I mean, you know, Ghana is very rich in natural resources. I think in terms of like gold, it has a vast amount of kind of gold reserves. And also, I guess, when we talk about Ghana, at some Yeah, cocoa cocoa has, you know, cocoa for Ghana, you know, Ghana is cocoa and cocoa is Ghana to many and also including Ghanians. You know, we don't just see it as a commodity, it I think it's also part of a heritage, you know, and it will might interest you to know that until the mid 19th century, the particular preacher Ghanian in Rio actually subscribes to the latter view or better quality view where, you know, an alien culture industrialist culture question, I travel to a place called Fernando port present the Equatorial Guinea, and, you know, he came back with the seeds, you know, and introduced, I think it was innovation is a very interesting book by a British anthropologist Polly Hill. And she writes about the the migrant cocoa farmers of southern Ghana, where she dispelled a lot of myths, you know, in the wide held notion that cocoa, you know, establishing in Ghana is a sort so people take a lot of pride, of course, now, I think things are getting a bit murky, with prices not being so good. You know, a lot of young people are not finding cocoa so attractive. And I can understand because I spend a lot of time with cocoa farmers and I see firsthand a lot of the beautiful. But also interesting is you hinted there as well, that kind of, you know, things. Things are changing. And maybe Ajay Selassie as well. So saying, there's more there's a lot more mining, I mean, they use it, is there a transition of what's happening between cocoa farming mining think this is one of the interesting areas that needed to be looked into. Recently, we could see how long used Change is really occurring within the context of cash crops like cocoa, which has become an attract in Ghana. Previously, mining and cocoa farm were being done with rudimentary equipment it is more or less like, the cocoa farmer is also seeing the hardship and the situation that they are in looking that they have been farming for the past three decades. And he has not been able to accumulate a significant amount of money in his account. But my name within a couple of months can that cocoa is more or less like heritage, as Eric made mention of its heritage to most people, but comparing cocoa to go gold is more or less like a resource of that era. So that you can take today, but tomorrow is gonna just quickly get finished, because people are just taking as many as they is where we use the artisanal equipment to mine. But now because it is the sector is more or less like looking as a get rich sector. People are also investing in the sector. Then once you have a cocoa farm, why don't you give me 50,000 Ghana cities, which look quite hoping some of amount to the be a former colleague working with cocoa board now, they are always on the field. And he's used to abduct me, what are some of the things happening on the closet? Well, we went to see some farmers anywhere like, since I was born, I've never seen 10,000 Ghana seen before, like in book. Yeah. But still coming to changing land from cocoa farm to mining. My grandfather is having a cocoa and cocoa farm how the cocoa farm has been in the previous years it is still intact, there is no minor there's nothing in it. So it is more or less like the only thing that will happen is accepted that certain cocoa other aspect too. People are still seeing this as a heritage. So my grandfather's cocoa farm was passed on from his grandfather's grandfather and had been passed on again. So it is more or less like it has never been changed and has not it has not been passed to the US recently launched a deforestation free regulations for cocoa, coffee, soy would palm oil, rubber and cattle. So obviously, good Europeans are just trying to stop all this deforestation. And these types of regulations saying that companies is looking at their supply chains and make sure That's a very good question seven. So, in many ways to put it's quite short, in many ways, some form of regulation is required in the cocoa sector, not just the cocoa sector, but also the other sectors you mentioned. So I opened a few primarily, because, you know, there's been over the last two to everyone equally. So it's able to achieve a sort of a landscape level change, as opposed to military approaches that may it might be a bit niche. But that notwithstanding, and also, that's where really my research, focuses, the processes involved in coming up with regulation, I think deserves a really did to get this one wrong. In that, the, that a number of countries, you know, for leading producing these commodities like Ghana, Nigeria, Brazil, have petitioned the World Trade Organisation, then in the same regulation, because they feel it's a top down imposition, that the EU is from the grassroots, and really designing solutions that fit the context. The coffee commodity chain is very different in different countries, cocoa, same oil palm, same way, we try to fit the same regulation for all of them. From what little I know, these schemes, proving, you know, proving that you've got sustainable forestry proving that you're deforestation free. It's not always easy. There are there are complex forms to fill out often like pictures, you know, if in a sustainable way or the best way possible and traditional way some Your cousin is saying hey, you know, you can we've got gold on this land we could just dig it all up but you're kind of looking at the regulations right, this is we've got gold on this land through my maternal grandfather, you know, we have lots of lander on the symphyseal Cocoa you know, he was a very wealthy cocoa farmer and a big family and you know, so like smile callbacks my mom politely to stay out of it because I want her life because yeah, once they So, when farmers are having their own land, it is more or less like, once you have your own land and the land belongs to you that you are not sharing with others, there is also a different story. And when the land is belonging to two lands, or chieftaincy, lands or whatever communal lands, you need family, we are talking about 123. Yeah, we talking about a lot, a lot of people as a family, and these people need to leave. And that is what the fathers gave to them as their livelihood. So it is really challenging when it comes to some of this regulation on that side. So land is an issue. So return, become so worried that they are always looking for sanity. So I think with this kind of regulation, it's really, really needed to put in context, not just imposing on people, we just like not knowing what is actually on the ground, because I just I made mention of the last name. So I do they are literally watching, but they are not seen anything. Yeah. Yeah, that I mean, you raised some huge tensions that it sounds like, again, if you're, depending on the situation, you know, being a part of a cricket reducing family can be really, really tough work for not much money, if good on the top layer, but actually, when, when you get down to the individual level, actually, where does the burden for? It doesn't sound like there is an easy answer. Cocoa is still going to be in Ghana for a long time, we hope and it does sound like there are ways of making it more sustainable. And, you know, I think but you know, the lushness and the beauty of it of the guy you've described is certainly certainly going to take a long time to recover from that. So I'm going to I'm going to wrap up with just two quick final questions, which is so first of all, we ask everybody that comes on So that's my question to you. Um, yeah, I think I could start. Yeah, nature going for me really, you know, it's, it means a lot of things. Especially putting it in the Ghanaian context. You know, if we talk about the cocoa, you know, farming systems, the sounds that we're talking about now, nature and more, it's good. It's because of the use of agro chemicals and the farmers are no longer planting them. So even food insecurity is becoming a massive issue in cocoa growing communities. But for me, the bottom line really is it's when I think about nature recovery, it's more about how we, you yeah, but you said last year, what would you say, would be your, your definition of, of nature recovery if I had to, fortunately have one. And it's interesting. Yeah. So I just customer, I back to the previous days, when I was in the village, we used to have a day, something we call a dim day, they didn't, they means that it is a data set aside by the traditional Council or the chieftaincy. Leaders. So what they do is they set a goes to the phone, nobody enters the forest. And nobody goes there even to do anything at all. So it kind of sounds so superstitious. But the intention behind this, to mission to the forest is cutting that. So that we can't we can't be disturbed in a forest almost every day. So there was an idea behind this, that the animals, the trees also natural recovery is something that had been practised for a very long time. But it looks like now people are becoming so over conscious that, oh, it is like something new, something new to us. But as an us as we are, as we are trying to move more, and trying to find our feet in terms of getting our this kind of superstitions, governance that we call them the gods, the monkeys are the ghosts. So these are the kind of animals there. So the idea is nobody eats them. Nobody touches them. And you see them the way we react to them. So this monkey is also sees us as because we don't have them, we think it will make the communities already having their own set of rules that they are working with. But interestingly, migration, people come in with different ideas, people travelling, for instance, the issue, the issue of mining is our workforce, their communities. People come from Burkina Faso, Yeah, it's very interesting. I think I read that that shamanism is the fastest growing religion in the UK. But there is a very real sense in other cultures and with some for some reason, we don't see it as a politically viable but the idea of, you know, to how forests speak for itself or the certain points are out. And let me give you a very clear case. So I recently did some work for the International Union for Conservation of Nature, their name tell the story of what do you need to know. And it was in a very fragile landscape of Ghana around the Northeast region. And there, you you have a burial ground for cheap, so because I know, there was one chief, we know, were just the two three, some generations ago, got one and said, the way things are going, we are losing all our waters. I'm invoking a cast that anybody who dares you know, to cut energy in this area, you know, I am so powerful, we love we love to dress up the science of nature, recovery and of academic language. And kind of be this is a new discipline, and we have to look at the technical thing and remote sensing and actually, there's so much power in understanding that, you know, you say nature's decoration. All that Mr. Curry is about, it's about ownership. It's about the people. I think, once once there's that buy in, you know that solution to context I think things work. Okay, we got to wrap up. So the final question, I'm gonna give you a week, paid vacation or whatever to any to any place within nature, any kind of ecosphere, biosphere can be somewhere new, somewhere different than where you've been before. Where you're going to go, what kind of ecosystem is I'm very much drawn to the waters and the forest. Yeah. And it's kind of shaping me because I'm from the western part, we have a lot of water bodies and some forest around. So I always love to be in those areas, was when I came here. When I started my MSc in Oxford, I always like to go to the White Excellent. Yeah. And how about your it's very similar when I was five, you know, I remember very fervently, you know, my grandfather took me to the Volta myself and my siblings, and made each of us to draw, you know, three handfuls of water and sip and like, you know, I've introduced you to the there is a bit of water, I think. Yeah, so just generally. Excellent. Well, I can't thank you enough is been educational, inspirational and a lot of fun. I've learned so much. One learns more, and I'm going to eat some more chocolate, but I'm going to do it

stephen thomas: 39:39

much more carefully and respectfully, and hopefully pay a bit more. Thank you so much for being on the next recovery podcast. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to the nature recovery podcast. I hope the audio was okay for you.

Unknown: 39:54

Sorry if it was a little bit muffled. I know that's really annoying when you listen to a podcast. I did the best I could. We had some tech got issues during the recording of this, but hopefully it was all okay. I learned so much I love chatting to these two. And I'm absolutely desperate who is awesome, she's like, if you haven't read wild soul, she's just a really insightful writer that just seems to pick fights with the traditional mainstream views of nature recovery and ecology in a really entertaining and wise way. So all of that coming up.

stephen thomas: 40:50

Thank you very much again for listening. You've been listening to the nature recovery podcast with me Stephen Thomas. Please don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you can, please consider leaving us a review, as it will really help other people to find us. Also, why not consider sharing this episode with someone