EnneagramU
The Achiever: Enneagram Type Three Special Guest
When my wife, Paula, an Enneagram Three, it was quite a surprise. As we journeyed through Paula's story, she candidly spoke about her battle with the label of being a "Three" and how she transformed resistance into acceptance, using her unique strengths to foster personal growth. Our conversation brought to light the nuances of Enneagram Threes like Paula, who navigate life with a blend of ambition and adaptability, and how understanding one's own Enneagram can lead to deeper self-awareness and improved relationships.
We all remember the sting of feeling inadequate when compared to the "teacher's pet" or the high achiever in the room. This episode doesn't just empathize; it dissects the impact of comparison on self-worth and the vital importance of recognizing our individual contributions.
Tackling the intimate landscape of relationships, Paula and I opened up about the dance of balancing contrasting traits when making life decisions, managing finances, and communicating effectively.
www.vufaith.com
https://www.instagram.com/faithandcommunity/
When my wife, Paula, an Enneagram Three, it was quite a surprise. As we journeyed through Paula's story, she candidly spoke about her battle with the label of being a "Three" and how she transformed resistance into acceptance, using her unique strengths to foster personal growth. Our conversation brought to light the nuances of Enneagram Threes like Paula, who navigate life with a blend of ambition and adaptability, and how understanding one's own Enneagram can lead to deeper self-awareness and improved relationships.
We all remember the sting of feeling inadequate when compared to the "teacher's pet" or the high achiever in the room. This episode doesn't just empathize; it dissects the impact of comparison on self-worth and the vital importance of recognizing our individual contributions.
Tackling the intimate landscape of relationships, Paula and I opened up about the dance of balancing contrasting traits when making life decisions, managing finances, and communicating effectively.
www.vufaith.com
https://www.instagram.com/faithandcommunity/
Welcome to Enneagram U with Damon and Kelly, where we explore the mysteries of human personality and help you learn more about you. With your skeptic or an enthusiast, together we'll take you on a journey of self-discovery using the ancient wisdom of the Enneagram. This is Enneagram U. Everyone. Welcome to Enneagram U. My name is Damon and I'm here with Kelly Shelly Wright. Hello, Kelly.
Speaker 2:Hey Damon.
Speaker 1:Kelly, I'm feeling overwhelmed today in so many ways. Are you? I don't know why. Well, I thought we were friends first of all. I don't know. I think it's in question at this point.
Speaker 2:I think you'll see just what a good friend I am after this episode.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, I'm shocked, I'm feeling shocked.
Speaker 2:Dumpfounded.
Speaker 1:I'm speechless, and so last week I didn't have a voice. That's right. This week, I'm just choosing not to speak.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm feeling.
Speaker 1:How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:I'm feeling thrilled.
Speaker 1:I don't care.
Speaker 2:I am so, so excited In so many ways. I'm thrilled first of all because our guest is the wonderful Paula Fontenelle. She's in the studio, which I know is contributing to you feeling overwhelmed.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But listeners, Damon's wife is here and Damon had no idea until we walked in.
Speaker 1:Kelly, I was, I was. I don't know how you did it, but I'm just. Everyone knows it's listening that how in the world would he not think that this is going to happen? True.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as we're interviewing threes of course we would want our favorite three.
Speaker 1:How did I not know? I mean, like I thought about it, I thought, oh, that would be awful, and there, so I'm staring out the door. I was talking to another view person and I see I see my wife walking up. I'm like, oh, there's Paula and there's Kelly and what's happening, and I'm like it all came together.
Speaker 2:The worlds have come aligned, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So today I guess we're talking about threes and our relationship with them, and there happens to be one here that I have a relationship with that is true and never fear.
Speaker 2:I am, you know, a former marriage counselor. So if we need to off-road a bit.
Speaker 1:no, yeah, no, yeah, it might happen, and so why don't you welcome our guest?
Speaker 2:Yes, paula, welcome. I guess we could start with you. So you know I'm thrilled Wait a second Overwhelmed.
Speaker 1:Can I interrupt? I need a drink.
Speaker 2:We won't tell you what Damon's drinking today, friends, something low-carb. That's for another time, anyway. So, paula, we've heard how Damon feels. How do you feel today? I feel eager. Yes, how about that? That's a perfect three-word. Well, thank you for being willing. You were part of the surprise. So when I reached out and said, hey, I would love it if you would consider being on our podcast, but let's not tell Damon. I know that can be difficult though you know, hiding something from your spouse.
Speaker 1:She did it masterfully, she did it great. Yes, that no clue.
Speaker 2:But, I am so glad that our listeners actually get to meet you, get to hear from you. I'm sure many of them feel like they know you a little bit.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Yeah, the good sides of her, of course.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm always so at peace when I know Kelly's with you because she protects me.
Speaker 2:That's right. So yes, is that eight friend?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed again.
Speaker 2:No, we're all in this together.
Speaker 1:Sure, we are yes. Well, and what I appreciate is eight, about Paul and me.
Speaker 2:Nope, send help. What I appreciate, paul, about you, is that you have been connected with the Enneagram much longer than your husband when he finally got on board. I know it was much prayer and encouragement from you through the years.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's true. That is true that is true.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm starting to think it's not real right now. Well, I know you struggle thinking it's real, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So, paula, would you like to jump in and tell us, like, how you heard about the Enneagram, how you came to connect with your number as a three Sure? Well, thank you.
Speaker 3:I believe, kelly, it was from you. I was on staff at Woodcrest and you, I think the staff, went through it with you the first time, so that would have been like 2015 or 16 maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3:It's been. It's been a while and I think ever since then it's been part of conversation just regularly and when I took the test and scored, I was. I scored a three but I was only one point away from the one and I really wanted to be a one Because I knew some threes and I I wasn't always thrilled about what I saw in those threes. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm one of them.
Speaker 2:Well, we always want to be what we aren't necessarily. I know.
Speaker 3:I've heard that, and so what gave me just some relief was at that time, and I don't know if this still applies but there were two kinds of threes. There was the Beaver three and the Peacock three, and I'm much more aligned with the Beaver three than I do the Peacock, but I'm trying to embrace it. So ever since then I've I've just tried to make peace with the good sides of that. That's right, and just try to, you know, make a difference where I am and knowing that not everybody's like me and I'm not like everybody else and we can all come together and use each other's strengths.
Speaker 2:That's right. Well, and I think you know so often people may be a little bit repelled by the in-ear earm cause they don't want it to be something that labels them or puts them in a box, or okay, here, here are all the threes, and are we all in the same box together? And the truth is no. Each number is its own unique person, you know, and we're growing in our healthiness and we're recognizing where we're unhealthy and there's no shame or blame in it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know why. I thought the one sounded safer, like there was nothing unhealthy about the one, but there's as I'm understanding there's unhealthy pieces of all of it.
Speaker 2:And I just didn't want to admit that, I guess at the time.
Speaker 3:But I'm I'm learning to embrace that yeah.
Speaker 2:Our dark side can be a little bit more uncomfortable, cause we've lived there, yeah.
Speaker 1:In that space? Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's a great point, I know sometimes, you know, when we talked about the misidentifications with the numbers, the ones and the threes sometimes get misidentified, and so I will. I'll say to people is a one wants everything to be perfect. A three likes things to be perfect, but it's more about okay, if it at least could look perfect. It doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. So I'll say you can go to a one's house and probably everything is organized and orderly, or as much as it can be. For a three. Most everything's organized in orderly, but there's going to be that closet or that Don't, don't open that junk drawer yeah.
Speaker 3:And that was one of those things. I'm sure I am like that there are some, you know, the junkie junk drawer in the in the office but I didn't like that part. Like I wanted the outside to match the inside and I'm like, oh man, it's more about my image. Like I didn't like that, but I think there is some truth to that. Like I want to be valued.
Speaker 3:Hi when I'm around the table, I want to make a difference or like, why be there? So that's how I want to contribute and that is kind of about how.
Speaker 2:I'm perceived that's right, how others might accept you, you know, and everything can feel like a little bit of a risk, like, okay, will I be accepted, will I be valued, will I be loved? And if I'm not performing, how will that be? Damon looks really.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I wasn't really listening.
Speaker 2:Or have you gone to another place?
Speaker 1:Well, my wife's in the room. I'm pretty much doing what I normally do. That's not true. No, you shared beautifully and I would concur that you have a lot of one tendencies. You like things orderly and clean and you like the kitchen counter cleaned off, you know, and when we can, but she's not crazy about it. I mean, if it doesn't happen, it's like we go on you know it's okay. Definitely got a lot of three tendencies just with her work ethic, I would say, is the main thing I see with three, is it still?
Speaker 3:called the achiever. Yeah, I mean, I love my to-do list and the reason I was feeling eager today is that when I can start a Monday and know what's coming for the week, I know the people I need to talk to, I know the tasks I need to do when I start the week. Organized like that, I'm eager to do it Like I'm loving jumping into that.
Speaker 3:It's when I start the week with like, oh my gosh, I haven't even thought about who needs contact, and then I get anxious and then if there's a distraction then I don't get back to it and I have trouble getting on track then. So I love that organization. So today's been a good start. Today's been a good start.
Speaker 1:Because you have this planned. Some of us didn't have this planned. Maybe we're not quite as eager.
Speaker 2:But thankfully we have a nine in the room who can go with the flow.
Speaker 1:Am I right? Throw that in my face, sure.
Speaker 2:You know you use the label achiever. I know there's many names we give to the different numbers, but also the effective or the efficient person, and so I love that, like you're noticing, today, I've got all these things organized for the week ahead. I can be effective, I can be efficient, and what I'm getting done, which threes thrive in that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes me feel more productive, like, yeah, productivity is huge, so when I can start the day with a plan, then I know I'm going to get more done than not starting with a plan. I feel unsettled.
Speaker 1:You like that, Kelly?
Speaker 2:I am Like I do like to have a plan More, so I think the word that comes to my mind is so I can tackle the week. So it's it's almost like I got to knock these things out.
Speaker 1:But it's not necessarily for you. The checklist itself. It's that I want to get all this. I don't know it's very close.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it really is.
Speaker 1:And I have three struggles.
Speaker 2:Close. Yeah, the threes and eights are very close, and there's times where I'm like am I a three? Because I love to get things accomplished. But even that, I don't know. There's just a difference. It's like the wording that comes to my mind is I want to tackle, I want to knock it out.
Speaker 1:So it almost feels like so you can move on to the next thing. Almost like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, yeah, I don't know, and it's not so much because anyone's ever going to know besides me, really so, but the threes and eights we have a lot of similarities in the energy.
Speaker 1:Well, I would have guessed Paula as an eight Like. Had I not have this extensive education that I now have on the Enneagram, I would have said Paula is an eight.
Speaker 1:And then when she tested as a three, I'm like, okay, and at one point I thought I was a three and I was like, no, maybe I just wanted to be like Paula, but yeah, so I would have said you were an eight and you're not in the one. I can see that, and so this is why we need just so much discussion about this wonderful topic.
Speaker 2:Yes, Because we can be misidentified and really, as we've talked about, it's about motivation. So what motivates us to do that? And I think what you were saying earlier, Paula, with just, I want to be valued and so and it does matter what others might think of me, you know that image piece, because so often I think, with anything we can feel like shame about that, but when we can see it in a healthy place of like no, this is how God's created me and I just have to be careful not to let the image part be the thing that's driving my life.
Speaker 2:You know, but that, yeah, how others might experience me, is important.
Speaker 1:Can I get brownie points for a second, since I'm probably way you know?
Speaker 2:you've got brownie points, just that you came in the room Because I know that was. I mean we had to drag him in. Friends.
Speaker 1:The door looks really far away right now. So I remember in our early days of marriage Paula was working at a hospital and an administration, of course, because she's an achiever, so she's up there at a very young age and I can remember the CEO saying if I had a bunch of Paul as I could take over a small country, and that was that was true, and so in some ways being able to get that checklist done and move through and work like that and have that much work ethic as a superpower not everyone has.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Because most people don't enjoy it.
Speaker 3:No working.
Speaker 1:That is like that. Can I comment on that? Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:He did say that and I do feel good about that inside. But when I think about then what other people think about that, then all of a sudden I'm the teacher's pet.
Speaker 3:I've been named the teacher's pet growing up you know, and so sometimes I try to de elevate that because I don't want other people to think, well, I can never compete with that, even though they may excel in something. Like you know, I have friends that are are twos, and they're so empathetic and they are great with people and if so many skills that I don't have when it comes to communicating and showing empathy, you know, I'm just like just get the job done and I forget about the feelings part. Sometimes, outwardly, I look stronger I don't know, maybe stronger is not the right word maybe more effective or more productive, and so then I make that person feel like they'll never be able to be me or be favored in the department, because I'm the one getting everything done.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 3:Cause I've had people say that, well, I'm never going to be able to do that, I'm never going to be good at spreadsheets, I'm never going to be good at to do this. I'm like, but you offer so much that I don't offer. So, yeah, I could probably do that, but I feel badly sometimes that I I love doing that. I would love to run a country.
Speaker 1:Well, there's our household.
Speaker 2:It is like a small country.
Speaker 1:When you come through our door civilized or barian?
Speaker 2:I totally see what you're saying, paula. Like you know, I think of you just sharing that story, like, is that little girl wanting to just use your skills in the classroom, you know, helping the teacher, wanting to be efficient? I mean you probably got your homework done or your test done quicker and just wanted to be of help, um, and not having a motivation to be the teacher's pet, uh, but then other kids again in that comparison game. That's really where that can fall in. And then we feel like we have to shut ourselves down, you know, and push ourselves back.
Speaker 1:Did you sit in the front of the room or in the back of the room Front?
Speaker 3:Once I saw, though, the results of that, the consequences of that in people teasing me or whatever, then I'd be like, okay, you, you don't have to prove yourself. Just be in the back and still be effective, like, still do a good job. You don't have to be in the front trying to prove yourself.
Speaker 2:Cause that's the key there, you know, is um you are worthy period, that's good yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, even if the worthy period then, as you're drawn to help someone you know, run a small country, um, that you can freely do it, you know, versus, okay, I've got to do this in order to be valued, yeah, that's great, that's, that's definitely a learning, a learning process, um yeah, and I think that what made me think of that also is that I might be a tin in a certain area, but I can't do a full project if I don't have.
Speaker 3:I'm not a tin. So I need to surround myself with the people who are tens in the areas where I'm not, so that we're more effective. So it's another piece that I'm learning as well. It's. It's what everybody brings to the table.
Speaker 2:And that's a great point, Cause we talked about with the three, uh, the temptation uh like with, uh like the like the jerseys that the football team, uh, that I grew up, uh, and Sedalia the football team once had uh t-shirts that had really big letters team and then really small letters me, and I said sometimes the challenge for a three is that the biggest letters are me and then the little letters are team, and so that's a healthy way of looking at it, Like, yeah, I'm part of the team but like to be a tin on this project, it takes everybody, Um, and I think that's an invitation to all the numbers, because none of us have a team, we just have it all. That's where we need all the numbers, Um, and except Damon, who's a bit of everything.
Speaker 1:I wasn't going to say anything.
Speaker 2:I, I, I know I'm reading his mind. Uh, at times I wasn't thinking that that's totally what you were thinking.
Speaker 1:I saw that look on your face, but I didn't say it out loud.
Speaker 2:Um, I remember, um, when Emma Stone got her Oscar for best actress. Uh, recently she got up on the the stage and she said this isn't about me, this is about all the people that made this movie, and that she's just a part of that. And I thought that's beautiful, because so often the person can get up and say it is me, because I'm the one now holding, you know, the Oscar. Um, yeah, and having to work through, I think some of those childhood wounds and childhood learnings, like you said, part of that could be wounding of, like gosh, I was made fun of because I was the teacher's pet and then I didn't want to feel like that, so I had to kind of shape shift a little bit. But then being able to look at it and say, okay, I don't have to prove myself in order to be accepted, so I don't have to go overboard, but finding that that just natural place for you of like, okay, so what is that balance then? Of?
Speaker 3:you know, I like to be effective and efficient, and so when I'm working on a project, like feeling free to be you, yeah, I'm in a group chat with some people and it's really easy for me to look at the question, if I know the answer, to be the first one to answer, like I know what. I'm going to put that on there because I want to be helpful, but I'm learning to like I don't have to be the first person to respond to that, like somebody else can do that. I can be doing something else, so it's all. It is this game that we play. I don't know. I guess it's a game we play to.
Speaker 1:Would I go first, Like if somebody put a question out and I need the answer? Yeah, I would go first. I would answer right away.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry, I didn't think I didn't understand. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 3:You wait and see. If nobody else answers, I'll answer.
Speaker 1:Eventually.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I get around to it. I want to do it right now.
Speaker 1:It must be hell for you to live with me.
Speaker 3:Let's get into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1:But she has been a driving force because you know, with it's great to have threes around because they are doers and achievers and executors. And for me, who is not that naturally, and when Kelly taught me that like, oh, your problem is inertia, I'm like, well, I'm living with inertia, so I can live off of that and that works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they say behind every, you know, strong company, organization relationship. It's that balance, that if a three is leading, not so much that everybody else is like falling and dragging behind them, but you know if a three is leading they charge up all the other numbers. Yeah, it has to just be at a pace that works.
Speaker 3:But I think too, just like I've mentioned before, is that it's easy then for me to make all the decisions.
Speaker 3:That's right and that happens with us, and so I've had to like back off, don't make the decision, don't lead. And it especially was a factor when I made more money than he did, because then, because when I was in healthcare and all of that, you were in like a youth leader or something, so I was making more money. So I thought, oh well, I've got the money, I've got the power, I'm going to make all the decisions. And that didn't go well.
Speaker 1:Right, damon, come on. Well, I don't know why it didn't go well.
Speaker 3:Well, because I was asleep on the couch.
Speaker 2:I didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't trust it.
Speaker 3:One great example was when you took over the credit cards and you know our bill payment. We were late for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Confession time. Yeah, it's a learning.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, right, and I would. Just it wasn't that I didn't want to pay the bills or that we couldn't, it was more that, oh, I forgot. Yeah, that forgetting part, yeah, and so that has to be frustrating for you sometimes, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I don't want to be the nagging wife. And so I'm like okay, how, how patient do I be? How can I gently nudge? I mean, I'm learning like at night, when I'm still working at eight o'clock in my office and you're sitting watching TV. I'm like does he not see that there's? Dishes that can be done, and I'm in there.
Speaker 2:I don't see them, he's selective blindness is what that is.
Speaker 3:But I'm like that's also that unhealthy side of me that I don't know when to stop, like I need to put boundaries on myself. So I think you've been helpful for me to say okay, get out of the office, let's have some downtime, let's watch TV or whatever.
Speaker 1:And you've been helpful for me because I do clean the dishes up some nights and I think we should be accountable.
Speaker 2:I think we need to let this be some accountability of like. Yeah, the question each week Damon, have you cleaned the kitchen? Oh Lord, I think that could be good, you could do it.
Speaker 1:Ask me anything you want after this after this podcast. Kelly, I don't even know that I'm coming back.
Speaker 2:This may be our last one, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, Paula will probably have my job.
Speaker 2:That's usually how it goes she first.
Speaker 1:Dang, I can't introduce her to the world.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, the world has needed to hear from her, that's for sure yeah. And what you guys are sharing, I think, is just the beautifulness of being in a relationship, because if we married someone or we're in a relationship with someone just like us, they would drive us crazy.
Speaker 1:It probably does drive some people crazy. Yeah, they're not hopeless. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:But I mean, and every relationship has things to work through but, like you guys were saying, like that balance point of you know, for you, paula, okay, you, if we use this as an example, you might get in the car and drive 50 miles an hour, but yet if you drive 50 miles an hour too much, it's going to cause wear and tear.
Speaker 2:You know, and Damon, for you your average speed may be 30, you know, and so it's like, okay, how do we balance out where we can have this kind of happy medium where Paula for you okay, I've worked past the time, that's good for me and I need to relax and you know Damon's going to help you with that. He's out on the couch Sounds like that hasn't changed in all these years. Get off your butt and get to work Yep, and you're also helping Damon because you know he's a productive citizen now.
Speaker 1:And before the Enneagram? No, there was none of that. That's so true. That's so true, yes, well, it's hard to come in and be vulnerable about you know, sit across from your spouse and say, yep, here are all of our weaknesses. So good job, and good job to me.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm admitting that I do, you know, not always clean the kitchen.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, none of us are perfect, we're now that we're older and you know we've been married 35 years and I think, we can be more secure in knowing that every relationship has things and if there, if there's a vulnerability that we can share, it helps. People know like okay, I'm not alone. Because when we were younger and I was feeling like these things, I was questioning like, who did I marry and is this the right thing? And what have I gotten myself into? And now, if we can help others, you know what? This is normal. What you're experiencing is normal. You just have to figure things out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like it makes sense right.
Speaker 2:I know. I remember when I got married, my mom probably the week that I got married she said I want to give you some marriage advice and she said pretty soon you will ask yourself what have I done? And you will feel like you have made the biggest mistake in the world. And I thought she has lost her mind. Where is this coming from? Probably two weeks into being married I don't even know what started it my husband was mowing the grass outside, I was doing the dishes and I'm looking out the window as he's cutting the grass and I remember just tears and I sat down on the kitchen floor and I was just like, what have I done?
Speaker 2:I think it was like I'm an adult now, like, and this is like I'm married again. But I think that's a question. But I think what happens so often is if those of us that have been on the journey longer don't share, like you're saying, like marriage can be difficult, it's the greatest thing, it's a difficult thing, but if we don't share that, yeah, that's normal. I think couples tend to think, oh, I made a mistake or, you know, I've gotten myself into something or whatever. So I think it's good.
Speaker 3:Like you, said to share, and I think, blake being 25. Our son.
Speaker 3:Blake's our son. He was like mom, you need to tell me some of these things, because I look at you and dad now and you get along and you work things out, you understand each other, so you're not on each other because I don't see that. And so when I'm looking for someone to live the rest of my life with, I don't see that. Those things I have to work through, yeah, you know. And so he's like I'm never going to find anybody, and so I think he's needing us to be vulnerable with him.
Speaker 3:Like he says well, what was hard, what did you struggle with? He goes I don't know any of that. I just look at you guys and you're great. And so those are some conversations we have yet to have with him about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it took a while to get here. Takes a while to become that well-oiled machine.
Speaker 3:And even that you know there can be bumps in that. Absolutely, and he sees those.
Speaker 2:Well, paula, if you think one question we ask is you know what does it like to be on the other side of me? You know that's Damon's favorite question.
Speaker 1:I'm not asking you, damon, I'm asking Paula. It's just bad for anyone.
Speaker 2:It gets Damon off the mental couch having to ask that question I know my world is so calm and peaceful.
Speaker 1:And then I come on this podcast. You're just trying to help you.
Speaker 2:But you know that idea of like, being on the other side of me, like when, like, let's say, when you are, you know, when you're healthy, when you're that beautiful three who is efficient and effective and helping others, like what do you think people experience on the other side of you when you're in your healthiness?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I hope that people are inspired Like I hope they feel confidence if I'm a part of what they're doing, that this is going to be great, that she's going to hold up her responsibility, she's going to get things done, she's going to get them on time, like that's going to help our project or whatever it is moving forward.
Speaker 3:And they'll know that I'm going to do my best. I hope also, though, that I am at a point where I can express my value of them and not just think about what I'm bringing to the table, but to express appreciation and understand the value that they bring to the table, so I want them to hear that from me too, and that's really good because you're actually giving them your core need, which is worthiness, and I think sometimes, if we're not in a space where we feel worthy, it's hard to give that to someone else.
Speaker 2:It doesn't feel like there's enough air in the room, so to speak. Yeah, that's good. On the other end of that, what do you think people might experience when you're maybe in that average or unhealthy part of the three? What might that look like?
Speaker 3:I still go there. Sometimes I think people feel pressure from me to keep up and I think I often not often I sometimes give off that vibe, and I've probably done that with my spouse more than anybody. It's those perfectionist tendencies, I think, come out and I probably push people away, even though I'm not trying to. I think they just think I can't do that, so I can't be you. So what value do I bring?
Speaker 3:I have a mentor in my health and wellness business. I have started and it's been very hard for me, but I've started sharing some of the conversations that I'm having with others that help the business to grow, and to even put that out there for her to speak into like yeah, you probably should have said it this way instead of this way. That's been risky for me, like I've not wanted to do that. I wanted her to just be able to say, oh my gosh, you're just killing it. But she has the freedom now to be able to speak to me in that way and she's probably being very careful because she doesn't want to hurt my feelings but she's been able to speak some truth in some areas where I can say things differently. So to be able to get to that point of just not thinking that I've got it all together, I can handle this. But to ask people for help, I think has been a growing experience for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as you think about, then, being a three in relationship, what is it that you would want others in relationship with you to know about what you might need in relationship?
Speaker 1:Could you ask that question again? What is that?
Speaker 2:We're not pointing fingers at Damon. I mean, I think just generally, but this could also be for Damon. What are the things that you need from?
Speaker 3:others. Well, I think that boundary thing that we talked about of if I'm stuck doing tasks and I'm never getting away, pull me away Value me enough to say, please stop, you don't have to do that tonight. Come on, let's go to a movie or let's go out or whatever. And it's not just with Damon, but that's with my girlfriends too. They know that I would just work for the sake of work, I think, also letting me feel like it's OK when I am the one that comes with the checklist. And here's our plan of speaking truth. If they have an idea as well, I want to hear that for sure, but to not feel like I have to be the person who's the teacher's pet, has to sit in the third row and to just value that. Yeah, because that's needed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you want that. I sometimes feel like, oh my gosh, this is not going to go forward, this is not going to go forward. I feel like I have to say something. I'm the one that comes with the plan and the way to execute. And, yeah, sometimes I feel like if it's not going to get done, if I don't do it, it's not going to get done, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fair. That's fair, it's true a lot.
Speaker 2:I can't tell. If that look is like I feel guilty.
Speaker 1:I left that pause on purpose. No, I don't really feel much guilt killing, I'm good.
Speaker 2:He's just kind of numb right now.
Speaker 1:I still don't know what's happening. He's just so much.
Speaker 2:But you're right. I love that because, again, it's that balance of not feeling like you have to over edit who you are and the gifts that you are, the gift that God has brought into you, that you're a reflection of him in our world, as that efficient and effective person, and so not to feel like, oh, I've got to really limit or edit myself. Again, you have self-awareness, but also just wanting others to know, Like for you, like to have empathy. What is it like to be Paula? You know, what does Paula need? Well, Paula is an effective, efficient person and so we need to maybe start with hey, Paula, tell us what your plan is. You know, or what would be a plan, and then you're very good at then letting people sprinkle in, you know, or how can we help? Come alongside you in that which is really important.
Speaker 3:I mean, you can include this in the podcast or not, but I have a question about so could? Is some of this learned behavior from how you grew up versus divinely instilled? I grew up in a situation where my chore outside on the farm might have been a, but if I didn't see that chore B and C also needed to be done at the same time, I would get in trouble, even though I did the chore that was assigned. If I didn't do those other things as well because I saw that they were needed, then I would be punished for that or disciplined for that, and so I've just grown up with that. What else is there? What?
Speaker 1:am I missing.
Speaker 3:What else is there I need to do? And I don't know if that has fed into the enneagram or if it's just evidence of my number or what, but that was a question that.
Speaker 2:I had. Well, that's a great question, because I think, again, as we look at personality, it is I think nature and nurture is that great question which came first. You know, the chicken or the egg? I think God does give us the personality that he would want us. You know how he wants us to reflect Him in the world. But then we experience the world out of that number, you know.
Speaker 2:And so for you, I think, is that little three living on the farm where there's lots to get done, which probably in some ways were like, oh, this is good, but then whenever it was that it was healthy, when it was your lane, but then if you became in charge of all the lanes, that that could feel really overwhelming. And so you know, probably then conditioned, I've got to look at everything that's got to be done. And I feel like, even as you were describing that, I wonder if an invitation from God might be God's re-parenting you of saying, and I only want you to focus on your lane, like you don't have to look at everything, like God's the parent that has it all and that he just wants to show you what's yours now.
Speaker 3:That's great, that is so good.
Speaker 2:Because there can be healing in that, because I think you know, as we talked about before, richard Rourke says that it's like each of us our true self. We're wanting to come back to our true self we talked about this last time and the true self is like a bone in our hand and it gets broken in the fallen world, and so what we do is we start to put cast over it, and so I think what God does and kind of re-parenting us is he starts to take off those cast and so that place for you, your true self, is like I am a little girl that can live on the farm and if this is my chore, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it fast, I can get back in and do what else I want to do. But then that was broken when you got in trouble, that you weren't doing everything else that needed to be done too, and so that created kind of that false belief if I don't get everything done, I'm going to get in trouble.
Speaker 3:So what you're saying then now is those other lanes other people are going to take care of right. Like there's people who are going to step up and do that.
Speaker 2:I don't have to worry about everything that's right, yeah, or trusting God in it.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say I really love what you said and give me permission to break that and make it worse. And that is like you're kind of saying that nature makes us a certain way. Let's say God makes us a certain way. Then nurture either pushes us toward our true self or pulls us away from our true self.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's a great lesson for parents.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And spouses and all relationships really.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I hope the Enneagram can also help us do that with children that we're raising to.
Speaker 2:And again, not that Enneagram puts our kids in a box, but it just helps us as a tool, because I've heard a reframe of the proverb that says train up a child in the way he should go, and as he grows up he won't depart from it.
Speaker 2:And so I always heard that growing up was like you train up a child, you discipline them, you make sure they're in church every Sunday and when they get old they'll be Christian and follow God. I'm making that oversimplistic, but that's really the message that I got. But I heard years later my husband actually shared a message that said what that means in the original language is that we learn about that child and their personality and the ways God's gifted them, and then we give them every opportunity to thrive. And when we do that, as well as teaching them about their relationship with God, those are things that will not leave them, because it's who God's created them. And so I think for us as parents, part of the work we're doing with just our own processing and our own recognition of personality and being a healthy version of ourself, we do it for self. Definitely, we do it for others. We do it for our children too.
Speaker 1:Good stuff yeah.
Speaker 2:Hardly get good on that. He did, he did, he did Good teachings. That just blew me away, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, he's find his way here someday.
Speaker 2:He will be here.
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Sounds like our kids are going to be on too, Kelly. Hey, if they're willing, oh yes.
Speaker 1:Well, we're running Wow, Longest episode ever on EnneagramU and you know I didn't really talk that much. So what does?
Speaker 2:that say we may need an episode next time, just for you to process. Well, Paula, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say, paula, it's been great having you on. Thank you for being brave and coming on here with me. It's easy to come on with Kelly because she's going to take care of you, but you never, as you know, you never know what's going to happen with me. But I just want to tell you a couple of things before we sign off here. And that is I definitely feel inspired by you and so I also never feel like you're pressuring me that much. It's a perfect blending of the pressuring, yeah, and that's true. That's true, but some pressure is good, yeah, you know, some pressure is good.
Speaker 2:Maybe more of an invitation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so thank you for sharing and kind of go in there with us. So, kelly, you have anything else to say?
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, Paula, for being a part of our discussion today, for being in on surprising Damon. I mean, it's not very often. You get to surprise people. I'm a fan of them. I don't know if Damon likes surprises, but I hate surprises so much.
Speaker 1:Well, this will be no, it's just one of the few. This is a great one, though. Yes, good, it has to be a surprise. Yes, right, and thank you, damon, for being a good sport. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah, I learned something.
Speaker 2:Gotta go home and do the dishes right after this, do the dishes first and then lay on the couch. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Thank you everyone for joining us on Enneagram U and we will see you next time. Bye Paula, bye, bye Kelly, bye Damon.