Beyond Your Number
You're more than just a personality. Beyond Your Number is a conversational Enneagram podcast where Damon and Kelly dig into what makes people tick, and what to do with what you find.
We cover all 9 types, wings, subtypes, and motivations, and how they play out in real relationships, real teams, and real life. No jargon, no fluff.
New episodes every Wednesday. Formerly known as EnneagramU.
Beyond Your Number
Understanding Enneagram Sevens: Joy, Pain, and Personal Growth with Hartley
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Ever wondered how handling a malfunctioning speaker can spark a deeper understanding of personality growth? Damon kicks off this episode with tales from his weekend as a sound guy for a band, navigating the highs and lows of live sound management. Meanwhile, Kelly reflects on a serene Fourth of July at the lake, and we're introduced to her husband, Hartley, an exuberant Enneagram Seven, who joins us for a heartfelt conversation about self-awareness and personal growth.
Hartley opens up about the duality of being perceived as the life of the party while grappling with deeper emotional struggles. Together, we delve into the Enneagram Seven's journey of embracing both pain and joy, shedding old habits, and embracing new growth. We also explore the nuances between joy and happiness, emphasizing how faith and self-understanding play critical roles in navigating life's challenges. Personal stories illustrate how the Enneagram framework has been a guide through various seasons of life, fostering resilience and emotional depth along the way.
Our discussion shifts to the complexities of living with traits like impulsivity and escapism, particularly within personal and professional spheres. Kelly and Hartley's 31-year marriage serves as a testament to the transformative power of self-awareness, trust, and presence in building meaningful relationships. We wrap up by celebrating the importance of authenticity and engagement, sharing insights on how to cultivate deep, supportive connections despite emotional challenges. Join us for an enriching episode that promises to resonate long after the final note fades.
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Exploring Human Personality With Enneagram U
Speaker 1Welcome to Enneagram U with Damon and Kelly , where we explore the mysteries of human personality and help you learn more about you . Whether you're a skeptic or an enthusiast , together we'll take you on a journey of self-discovery using the ancient wisdom of the Enneagram . This is Enneagram U . Hey everyone , welcome to Enneagram U . My name is Damon . I'm here with my friend Kelly . Hi U . Hey everyone , welcome to Enneagram U . My name is Damon . I'm here with my friend Kelly . Hi Kelly . Hey , damon . Kelly , I am feeling satisfied .
Speaker 2Okay , it's a weird feeling . I mean , but it's a feeling .
Speaker 1I couldn't come up with another word today . You're satisfied because Well , this past weekend , I sometimes mix sound for a band , yes , and this band is some of my dear friends and they are very good and we're playing this gig at pierpont great place gig .
Speaker 2Yeah and yeah , does that ? Is that what the kids are using this nowadays gig ?
Speaker 1I don't know , I can't , I can't , so I don't . Okay , gig , we'll call it gig , because that's what I call it . And one of our speakers started to pop and crackle and and there's only 150 people there . It was okay , you know , and so I had to go up and try to fix that on the fly , and then I couldn't . It was literally breaking , it burned out , it broke .
Speaker 2The amplifier did so when you say , go up , you had to like in front of this .
Speaker 1You know , like I had to go up on a ladder . Well , no , I could reach it , but I could reach it . But yeah , up up to the stage .
Speaker 2yeah , up to the stage In front of people .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , Up to the stage . You know sound guy's supposed to stay in the back .
Speaker 2Right , you like to be back in the back .
Speaker 1Yeah , so , unless there's something wrong . So I went up there and jiggled the wires , changed the cable , tried everything and then shut it off and then turned the other speaker and actually it worked . So I felt satisfied that that and it was just a great , great event .
Speaker 2Good In spite of that .
Speaker 1Well , the weather was nice , pretty good , yeah yeah . Sometimes it's super hot playing outside or the opposite Everybody's freezing . And it was it was it was perfect and it was a friend's birthday , you know .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And it was her 50th and it was fun .
Speaker 2She invited people out to listen to the band and and yeah , and they're just really good , yeah , and so when the speaker's not so good , and then I'm like feeling bad or hey , you just need one , just one speaker .
Speaker 1But I was satisfied that , okay , we made it through yes um , so I think it was still a really really good because that could be a nightmare if it didn't . Oh yeah , oh yeah , and I mean you're at the mercy of that . Now both speakers go out . And how ? What do we do ? Everybody came out and there's no backup , and so now . I'm starting to think about okay , what do I need for backup , and can we haul all that stuff , and do I even want to set that up , and et cetera , et cetera .
Speaker 2So so you get to go to your six uh .
Speaker 1I guess so , and go .
Speaker 2Okay , what's the worst case scenario ? And let me plan for it .
Speaker 1Yeah , there was another . This is just funny . Um , another guy was there who's a sound person and says , hey , I've got that exact same speaker . I'm like where , in your car , let's go get it . No , he's like no , it's , it's at home . Uh and I ? I came here on my motorcycle , so like I don't know bring it with you on the back of your motorcycle .
Speaker 2Why do you tell me this ? He wants a sound man , always like be prepared .
Speaker 1But the guy is so nice that as we're getting this one repaired , he's let us borrow that . So okay yeah anyway , that's how I'm feeling okay , satisfied , I got through it and yeah and uh . I didn't really rest that much this weekend . I worked a lot , but yeah , that's where I'm at .
Speaker 2Well , it was life-giving , though , because you love doing that I do , yeah , I do , yeah .
Speaker 1So sorry , no big stories that was it ?
Speaker 2well , it's a pretty big story .
Speaker 1There was no brawl or anything like that . At the event , you're getting quite a few experiences being the sound guy for this band .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1I am , it's fun . Yeah , I'm in a lot of places I shouldn't be . Let's just say Go ahead .
Speaker 2It's just yeah , you're becoming more well-rounded than you're .
Speaker 1I am .
Speaker 2How are you feeling ? I'm feeling excited . Okay , so we had a great 4th of July weekend , long weekend at the lake , which was really relaxing . One morning I am not a sleep in kind of person One morning I woke up and it was like 9.52 .
Speaker 1Is that late for you ? Very late , I was like Seems typical to me . Something's wrong with my iPhone .
Speaker 2Like , surely it is not this late , but it was . I really slept in , so that felt good . Yeah , so that was good . But yeah , just time away , and I'm excited because we get to interview my husband today .
Speaker 1Oh , my goodness gracious . So I'm excited and also like nervous .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean our fans are very , very excited .
Speaker 1I've had people say they're tuning in today for this one .
Speaker 2Yes , so anyway , yeah , so I'm excited about that . Okay , good .
Speaker 1Is he here ? He is here . He's so quiet For now . Welcome .
Speaker 2Hartley , glad to have you .
Speaker 3Our seven .
Speaker 2Our seven .
Speaker 3Hello , glad to be here . Yes , thank you . I'm not sure which you know . I'm not used to being a guest . I'm a podcast host , not a guest , so I don't know if I should use this voice . Or I could slide into Vince Fontaine , the man who plays the stacks of wax from the house of wax W-A-X-X , or my NPR voice , which is very distinct and enunciates well , or my movie tone news .
Speaker 1He's bringing all the voices . Yeah , you can be any voice you want . You have several podcasts . What are your podcasts ?
Speaker 3Oh wow , we get to do a self-promo .
Speaker 2You promote us , we promote you .
Speaker 3Right now , I only have two , only two .
Speaker 2If a little's good , a lot more's better , right I have ?
Speaker 3one that is my oldest , my longest running . One is called Faith , finances and F-Bombs Love it , love it , great name , great name and my most recent one , which is just getting started and is called Side of Fries .
Speaker 1Side of Fries and can you find these ?
Speaker 3on Apple and Spotify you can find them wherever you listen to your favorite streaming platform , you can find them .
Speaker 1That's awesome . Yeah , Side of Fry sounds like a good one . You probably have had some great guests on that show . Yes , I sure have In fact .
Speaker 3I think I made a mistake because I had a panel for our first episode of Side of Fries , which included your son , blake and , I feel like , and even my co-host , judd LaFrance , were both .
Speaker 1after that episode , we talked and we're both very nervous that it's going to go all downhill . He's pretty good guy , yeah . I mean he had Jack with him too , and they're both uh fun . Yeah , that is a food related podcast .
Speaker 3so I'm sure everyone is wondering well , what was the panel ? And the panel was ? We all discussed our what we feel . Well , we had a rating system for wings oh , here in town , so we discussed wings .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1A best of .
Speaker 2Yes , okay , that's good , yeah , that's cool .
Speaker 1Well , thanks for sharing that and everybody tune into side of fries and something , something in F bomb . I remember that finances , oh yeah , and F bomb On that podcast .
Speaker 3We talk about faith .
Speaker 1We talk about finances .
Speaker 3And we generally don't really drop any F-bombs . We talk about things that bother us .
Speaker 1Do you ?
Speaker 3actually use the F-bomb , or do you beep it out for your audience ? Well , I don't want to put the explicit label on there , so yeah , I bleep it out but you can tell what's being said . Okay , and that's usually more my Actually actually my co-host on that one . I thought would be sure to drop one in the first episode . Second , we went like 15 , 20 in before he dropped .
Speaker 1Really , really . I'm not saying I know him well , I don't know him that well , but I was like I know he likes to live on the edge .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2So there's that . Yeah , I think he was intentionally holding back . Okay , it had to be something really intense , but now it's not a problem .
Speaker 3Now I'm having to edit that more than I am the ums and the ands and the .
Speaker 1Let's see . So , once he opened the gate , what was I wanting to say here ? Yeah , the floodgates were open . Now , yes , all right , very good .
Speaker 2Well , and you also know about the Enneagram .
Speaker 1I do .
Speaker 2So tell us a little bit about how you came to know , about the Enneagram , about being a seven . Tell us about that journey .
Speaker 3I was part of a transforming community where I gathered with other people in community and it was an 18 month commitment and we gathered to . The entire community was focused on embracing our spiritual transformation in a way that we never had before . And so every quarter we would gather as a community to learn about a new spiritual discipline and then we would spend the quarter sitting and learning that and practicing that practice . And so when the community gathered for our discipline , to learn the discipline on spirit , on self-examination and self-awareness , that was where the Enneagram was taught , and on that particular community , I took as a guest my wife , kelly . So Kelly and I learned about the Enneagram simultaneously .
Speaker 2Yes , he's known about it as long as I have . We were introduced simultaneously .
Speaker 1What .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Hartley , I think it sounds like you introduced Kelly to the Enneagram .
Speaker 2Well , we can pretend to claim that it was his invitation for me to come to this retreat . Yes , it was . I think this is revolutionary .
Speaker 1Everyone should know this . You should sing it from the rooftop .
Speaker 3And that particular retreat was not exactly as guest friendly as others . So it wasn't really encouraged to bring people to that one , but I felt led to invite kelly to that one , and so yeah , so this was 2010 , I think it was . I think it was 2000 .
Speaker 2Yeah , it might have been 2010 because that community was um 2009 through 2011 wowza yeah , and so when you heard about the seven , did that just connect with you or tell us about your journey Of figuring out ?
Speaker 3Not really . I came to know my number and to land in that space Very hesitantly , with some resistance . It was a slow process . It was a careful process , a lot of examination , actually that's one of the things that I gathered a lot of input From other people , especially those that I'd been In community with , and so I did have a lot of resistance and it was not . It was not something I embrace , it's not something that I wanted . It was kind of a . It was . It was like a very negative . I feel . You , man , I am with you in that .
Speaker 2I am so every week . It's pretty much constant .
Speaker 1Yes , did you want to be a different number , like looking for something or no number ?
Speaker 3I wasn't really concerned about a number . I just really didn't want to land as a seven . Oh okay , and the thing is and that was my first community of several , so I've heard that same teaching and have been with people as they're learning about it multiple times , and the one thing I hear quite a bit is and it's almost verbatim must be great to be a seven . And I can tell you it is not . Oh okay , yeah , well , I mean , it has its ups and downs .
Speaker 2I mean it's nice to be a seven .
Speaker 3We all relate to the seven . We have 24-7 , the rule of seven . Some of the people you work with are affected by the rule of seven there's the lucky seven , the best of seven , the seven card stud . Seven , wonders . Seven c's seven , sins double , oh seven . You produce this podcast every seven days , so I mean , seven is important seven is imperative it is it is . It is the key to so much of life .
Speaker 1It it's so true , that's so true . Wow , okay , that was amazing .
Speaker 3But for me it is not . It is not necessarily great to be a seven , because for me it's just . There's just a lot of pain internally , there's a lot of pain , there's also , you know , surprisingly a lot of dissatisfaction , and then , externally , there's a lot of perceptions you have to take from people . And there's a lot of devaluing that happens , oh yeah .
Speaker 1I can understand that .
Speaker 3Because there are many things that I believe . Gosh , this is hard , but we are talking about me , so , at the risk of sounding arrogant , let that be a disclaimer for anything else I might say .
Speaker 2That's not arrogant at all .
Speaker 3There are things that I feel like I have been given some wisdom about and there are some things that I can really speak into and have a lot of experience , and a lot of times I'm just devalued for that because I am in the space of a seven . So that's what happens externally a lot .
Growth Through Embracing Pain and Joy
Speaker 2Well , we were talking last time just in relationship with a seven , that so often people don't necessarily go to sevens because they're not sure like will it be taken serious ? And that's where I think sevens really do feel valued when someone comes and gets input from others . But so often there might be that barrier .
Speaker 3Exactly , yeah , exactly . And then there are times when I might bring something forward and present something , and it's not taken seriously . Right , I might bring something forward and present something and it's not taken seriously . Or I might ask a very important question that is something we all need to consider and I'm not taken seriously .
Speaker 1I've seen that with other sevens . Yes for sure .
Speaker 2And so for you like we were talking last time too , like the seven , we think of the seven so often and I think people think of sevens and are like , oh my gosh , it's the life of the party . Always so fun . But you said you really came to know about you being a seven through pain .
Speaker 3Yes , yeah , I think that's why I struggled with it and resisted it so much , because , yes , I was reading about the fun side of it , but you can't read about why a seven is in the and I don't want to say a seven you can't read about someone seven is in the and I don't want to say a seven .
Speaker 3You can't read about someone who is in the space of a seven without understanding what it is that causes them to be that way . And I just felt I did have a , even though I spent so much time resisting it and seeking input . I kind of knew in my heart and my gut that I probably was a seven and I just didn't want to do that because I knew that to grow as a seven and to transform as a seven , I would have to embrace that pain .
Speaker 3And I just I just did not , did not want to do that .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Gotcha , thanks for sharing that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I want to avoid the pain or , you know , just focus on the silver lining or the bright side of things and , you know , make the world a happy place , make people around them happy , and so for you personally , it sounds like that journey of transformation has a big part of this has been just knowing about your number , maybe working through the pain Right .
Speaker 3Yeah , it has been .
Speaker 2Any other ways you'd say that it's helped you grow personally .
Speaker 3Well , I think , if I can give you a big picture , like maybe a 30,000 foot , level and give you a big picture , like over all what it has done for me , and then bring it kind of back down to reality . And I think the big picture for me is that what the Enneagram has allowed me to do is it has taught me to embrace four seasons , or the different seasons of my life , seasons of change in my life .
Speaker 3So trees shed their leaves and are dormant before there is regrowth . And so , in realizing that , I think what do I need to shed to allow something new to grow ? And then the ground shivers under a white , frosty blanket in the wintertime and I think about what pain do I need to let die and bury , to allow life for inappropriate pleasure ? And then , in spring , the new bravely surfaces and I let go of my fear of scarcity . And in summer , there are games , sun and fun , and I am present and I am who God has created me to be . So I live focused on summer and I thrive on summer . But as a seven , I get distracted by summer's world , not realizing I'm getting lost in a seasonal world .
Speaker 3And so that's a big struggle for the seven . How do I be in the world and not ? How do I be apart and present to the world and not get lost in it Because we're just spending time being numb or not embracing what we need to ?
Speaker 3So , that's kind of the 30,000 feet . That's the big picture of what the Enneagram how it's helped me grow personally and then more on the plane of reality is . It's helped me move from gluttony to sobriety . Actually , not fully . Listeners can't see me , so you don't know . I do have a little bit of girth upon my person .
Speaker 3So maybe not complete sobriety , but it's helping me move from gluttony to sobriety and it's helped me to grab hold of my pain and wrestle with it . I don't think I would if not for the Enneagram , because I am a firm believer that no change truly , that a person does not truly change without self-awareness and self-examination and embracing those things . And so that's what I do I wrestle with it and I'm still learning . I'm learning through moments or small windows where I actually take the time to depend on others for many things and ask for help . And I'm still learning , and I'm actually learning that I will be taken care of , because that's kind of a childhood message that goes with me .
Speaker 3I can't count on anyone , I can't rely on anyone and I'm not going to be taken care of . So that's where it is at the reality . Now , unfortunately , it's still challenging , probably because I spend more time as an average seven , or maybe not , but I think we all have average time , and so the challenges for me is I continue to feel as though I still have no clue how to grieve , and I'm not sure how crazy that makes my therapist , because we talk about that quite a bit .
Speaker 3And then the downstream and upstream practices which you'll probably talk about next week . I don't feast as much as I would like , and that's not feasts in terms of a big meal , but just being with people and embracing them in a celebratory meal . And then I'm too impatient to have silence and solitude every day . I appreciate silence and solitude .
Speaker 3It's something I value , it's something I preach to others about the importance of it , but I'm just not patient enough to do it every single day . So that's something I work on . And then I can never embrace Lent , which I think I should as a seven , but I just don't like to fast .
Speaker 2Well , sevens don't like to be boxed in , you know , or have those boundaries a lot of times , and so sometimes it's that rebellious side . I'm saying this as someone with a strong seven wing , you know , as just if you say no , I think we tend to want to go to that even faster , right , yeah ?
Speaker 3Right , and you said something last week . On last week's episode , you even pointed out the . You mentioned something about if you talk about a potential , like I have , if you were to present to me the potential , I have to do something . And , damon , you were surprised to hear that that doesn't work as a motivator . You are exactly right . I don't know if that was an insight you had .
Speaker 1But it's exactly right . It works as a box . It's like that's an expectation someone else has for me , so screw that they may be right , but I may be crazy .
Speaker 2In that case , a little nod to that . Well , and so , yeah , embracing the seven , embracing the pain , but also , have you found , as you are embracing the pain , what does that do for the joy for you ? I mean , does that make the joy more authentic ? Or what do you think , because I loved even your , you know , referencing like the four seasons and it sounds like in working through , like the winter , like knowing okay , but there's spring on the other side of that .
Speaker 3Right . I believe it does help me embrace the joy . It certainly gets me there quicker than it used to . That's a spiritual thing for me , and so I'll just say , if I can talk about interaction with God , because I don't- think I can get to the joy without relying on him and a dependence on him .
Connecting Through Self-Awareness and Joy
Speaker 3And , as a seven , I like to plan , and so when I came to a realization that I'm part of a holy plan that God has for me , I think that fills my heart with joy . When I think about that , even in the worst moments , even fighting against pain or resisting pain even more , or telling him exactly how I feel about the traumas that I've had in my life , that he was there , not taking part in personally , but he was there to witness and was there experiencing that with me , just knowing that I'm part of a holy plan fills my heart with joy , and I think that's why I can affirm that there is a spiritual dimension to my life .
Speaker 2Well , and so often we think of like a verse in the Bible that says the joy of the Lord is my strength , and we're like , oh the joy , or the happiness , or like being jovial , and it's like really , when you look at and in its true context , it's not like , oh , the happiness is my strength , it's exactly what you're saying being a part of God's bigger plan and that , no matter what we might be experiencing , we're able to find really our strength in Him .
Speaker 2Exactly , and that brings about maybe a hope or a joy differently than how we might think of it .
Speaker 3Yeah , it does , that's a good point , and we don't want to confuse . We should not confuse joy with happiness , because you can be joy , you can be very joyful internally in our soul , but it's not coming out and being expressed as happiness always , or how we might think of like a seven , like we were talking last time , like a comedian , you know being up on the stage performing .
Speaker 2I think that's where we do a disservice to sevens is just , you know , make us happy or make us laugh , or you know , and that's definitely I mean , sevens can do that , they can bring that , but if we start to have that expectation or put them just in that box , we're missing that true joy . Yeah , so how would you say to the Enneagrams helped us in relating with others . I know we talk about this a lot with our marriage .
Speaker 1Oh , I'm all ears , I'm all ears , I'm listening .
Speaker 3I would really prefer not to talk about that here in this media .
Speaker 1Oh , you know , I agree , and it was a surprise when my wife was brought on this show . So I feel for you , man . I'm actually on your side this whole episode .
Speaker 3I think the Enneagram has helped me to relate to others , because I think it taught me how to relate to others . I was not able to relate to others , I feel I don't believe I really could relate to others . I didn't have a good example of what a relationship looked like . My parents were poor parents , secondary to not being good at relating well to one another . I had a relationship with my sister , but the very first trauma , the first two traumas in my life , were her getting diagnosed with cancer and then passing away . She passed away six weeks after I turned five . So what relationship I was building there was just completely severed . And so I feel like I started at a deficit and didn't have any examples and didn't find any people who I could look to to say what does a relationship really look like ? So basically , in essence , I grew up really not knowing how to relate to others .
Speaker 3Now I did . I think I probably did it poorly , I did it maybe insufficiently or maybe I'll say it this way I did the best I could , not having any examples . So I started with that deficit and then I was introduced to the Enneagram at 30 years old . So now , with 30 years behind me and along with that , now understanding that I'm a seven , which is why I did many things that I did and so many of my conscious decisions not giving any care to what they were kind of wreaked a little havoc in my life , and so now understanding that that was very difficult , but it taught me how to relate to other people .
Speaker 2And if I could just say , because you and I have known each other for so long , let me get my calculator 40 years .
Speaker 2We met on the school bus but I would say , even though maybe internally for you you didn't feel like you were connecting or relating to others , everybody loves you . Yeah , I mean from the times you were little like , I remember your mom telling stories about all the little girls in the neighborhood coming and wanting you to be the judge of their beauty contest . If you can imagine , you know Mr Charming here and then you know , and people like you know Mr Charming here and then you know , and people like you , just you did entertain , you know , and you were so much fun to be around . But I could imagine that was the exterior , but on the inside you feel like you weren't able to really relate .
Speaker 1So I would never have said that about you at all , right From what I know .
Speaker 3That's a good point and I appreciate that . I think I'm able to relate well with others , or maybe I need to reverse that .
Speaker 2Maybe I could relate to others , but I did not feel I was relating well . Well , and I think that's where a seven so often feels like how we would perceive a seven as the life of the party or interacting with everyone . But a seven can leave a party feeling really alone and isolated because they've been someone that's been telling stories or doing different things , but yet not feeling then connected . So , like you said , with people , but not necessarily connected in that . But , like you said , it's given you a tool , a way to connect .
Speaker 3Right , and I think one of the biggest ways it's helped me relate to others is it has allowed me to increase and practice self-awareness . So a big part of that has been just coming to a realization , a shocking revelation of just how self-referenced I have been for most of my life . So my self-referenced living was way out of control . It's also helped me to learn how to possess the good things of life without being sensitive to the needs of others . Um , and one of the biggest things too , has been it's it's allowed me without the Enneagram I'll say it this way without the Enneagram I would not slow down , I would not slow my thoughts . Uh , it would . Uh . It's helped me to be more slow to speak , slow to react and to be intentional and learning to regulate . And probably one of the best , best things that's helped me in relating to others is that I have learned and I am getting really good at the practice of holding the quip response , the joke , the sarcasm , the observation , just keeping that inside .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3And you don't know how difficult that is to do .
Speaker 2You do share them , though , at the right time , as I was sharing last week . Like no one can make me , like belly laugh , cry laughing like you can .
Speaker 1I mean still after all these years , and no one can tell a story like he can . No , there's just nobody else .
Speaker 2So so true , like he can't nobody else , so so true . And yet , uh , you know , like you said , being willing to like , think through that , you know , and and to be able to decide when that's appropriate to share , and yeah , last week I shared that I can go there a little bit and I can do that a while , but then I get fatigued pretty quickly .
Speaker 1But I think also if I'm around a seven , that doesn't regulate , I can get fatigued quickly as well , because it's like well , the jokes just keep coming and coming , Like okay , we're done , I need to breathe the show's over , the comedy show's over , you know , yeah a little bit of that so that's really good insight on your part , hartley .
Speaker 1I think , and we all need that with our numbers to realize . I hate this question . Kelly always asks it what's it like to be on the other side of you ? And each number would benefit from thinking that way .
Speaker 2Yeah , for sure . Well , and with that we'll just ask that question , but we like to ask it in both ways . What is it like to be on the other side of you when you're healthy ? So what would you say ? That that looks like .
Speaker 3True Seinfeld fans would get this reference . I'm like a proctologist at a party . You are going to want to listen to every story and never leave my side , not even for a moment . My colleagues on Broadway have told me more than once , and more than one of them have said something to this effect man , I have never , I have never enjoyed a time square in Manhattan as much as I did with you last night . But , man , I am freaking worn out .
Speaker 3So seriously , the serious answer to the question because you're talking about every day , day in and day out , when I'm healthy . The serious answer is I'm enthusiastic and vivacious , resilient , cheerful , deeply grateful and appreciative . If you're interacting with me , I will see you and I will be responsive to you . If we're working on a team , I will be very productive and practical . I'll help you accomplish things and my multi talented skills will come alive .
Speaker 2Really good , yeah , yeah . Yeah because there's something about that seven energy that again brings the mood , but it's also a champion for others .
Speaker 3Right .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think , like we were saying last week , the hope for the seven is making others around them happy , and that can become codependent , for sure , but also being able to champion or support . You know , be that energy .
Speaker 3And I can stay true to that and I can stay present to that when I'm healthy If I'm in an average state . I'm not necessarily I'm providing all of that , but I'm not necessarily present to it and I'm not very true to it . I might be doing something good , but I'm thinking there's something better around the corner .
Speaker 3My mind is focused on the next . It's anticipation . So if I'm completely healthy , there's no anticipation there . If I'm just kind of average , I'm still giving you all of that good stuff , but my mind is on the anticipation of what's next and what's to come and this is good . But there's got to be something better that I could be doing .
Speaker 2I'm a little more scattered and distracted in those moments and what would you say then to what's it like to be on the other side of you , maybe in that unhealthy place ? What do you think people experience ?
Speaker 3I would just say get away from me you're saying that .
Speaker 2You're saying you want people to get away from you , or that's what people are saying .
Speaker 3I'm saying if I am unhealthy , get away from me .
Speaker 3I'm gonna , I'm , I feel , um , and I'm a seven , so I'm probably a little more self-critical , but I feel I'm very unpleasant to be
Navigating Personality Growth Through Self-Awareness
Speaker 3around . I know I'm impulsive , I'm escapist , I'll even in in every way , um , I'm prone to erratic mood swings , self-defeating and negative . I will not see you and will have no genuine , genuine interest in you and refuse to let in and express love . I will not be slow to speak and will usually say something hurtful just for the sake of a witty quip or having the last word , even more so if I think it's going to get a laugh . But really I become acquisitive , self-centered , demanding , controlling , perfectionistic , rigid , compulsive , self-critical . Stop me .
Speaker 1You can stop me at any time . Where's the mute button ?
Speaker 3But in those times if I'm unhealthy , I'll be critical of you and critical of others .
Speaker 2So really I can see you go into that one arrow .
Speaker 3I do those last few things I've mentioned is the one . I go yeah , I very much do that , but on a team I'll have a tendency to undermine others and be verbally abusive and manic and going after what I want .
Speaker 1Okay , I don't think I've ever experienced you that way , and I was wondering what it would look like honestly .
Speaker 3Yeah , and that's as I alluded to before . That's when I'm unhealthy . So , personally , you know , if I'm all by myself and it's just me personally , when I'm not healthy , I become indiscriminate about the experiences I pursue and I lose a sense of priorities , Gotcha . So it doesn't matter . And I'm not one for list . I have a very particular feeling about list , Even when I make list for myself .
Speaker 1I make list for him . Yeah , that's . Yeah , I'm staying out of that one .
Speaker 3Well , yeah , we're going to . We're going to stay off of that . Yes , yes , but I do want to acknowledge that I make lists for myself , but it's not in a way that I mean it's it's just a different , unique way that suits me . But even though that is prioritized , if I'm very unhealthy , those priorities just fly out the window .
Speaker 2Because I think it's in pursuit right of what would be fun or , like you said , in that average or unhealthy . It's like okay , there's got to be something better than what I'm experiencing right now .
Speaker 1One of the things that I'm noticing is that the humor , the sarcasm , the quips , all those things remain whether you're healthy or unhealthy , and it just comes from the motivation or where you're at at that point . It's the same superpower used differently . Exactly .
Speaker 3And as a result of the Enneagram and embracing this change and growth , I am able to take what in my mind begins and it's there as sarcasm and restructure it , be a little slow and restructure it and present it in a way that's not as hurtful to someone when it's fitting and when it's appropriate .
Speaker 2That sarcasm really is humor with anger attached to it . And so when you can work through some of the anger or recognize some of the feelings because I think for you and I again , growing up together , getting married , working through just ups and downs of both of our lives and our personalities , it wasn't too I mean , it was pretty early on when we came across just even how to name feelings , and I remember that was a real experience for both of us , but especially for you , of like I don't even know what I'm feeling because , sevens , are able to push those feelings and then being able to embrace that .
Speaker 2I mean what I've known of you throughout our whole time is that resilience of just because I know right now , as you're sharing . It may seem more of like you're putting that critical or negative side , but I mean , once you recognize , okay , I don't know how to process my feelings you didn't just say I'm not going to process my feelings . You're like , how do I learn how to process my feelings ? Therapy has been something you've engaged which has been so important to where you've come out the other side of it , really being able to be authentic . And even I know we've taught marriage classes for years and the how we Love is a great resource that we've recommended and taught classes on , and you're the pleaser , or once were a pleaser .
Speaker 2And I was the vacillator , and so that duet was just even that sense of how can I make you happy ? And so then when we realized , oh , crud , that's not a good dynamic , you know having to work through that of like okay , you having a voice and like it not always being my way , and you know being able to work through that of like okay , you having a voice and like it not always being my way and you know being able to work through that together to come out , you know , like 31 years of marriage now where I feel like we're stronger , healthier . Of course , you know we're always living and learning .
Speaker 3And .
Speaker 2I think the Enneagram has been a big part of that . We joke around , you know , with the Enneagram animal .
Speaker 2The eight is the bull bull , and so what I would say is I'm the bull , and so hartley , uh , as the seven is the rodeo clown okay , that's better and so like charging , like he's like , oh , let's just make this light and fluffy and I'm like I'm Taking everything down , but in that healthiness of that of like , okay , how do we work together and not use that to weaponize each other in our marriage ? But like more of okay , yeah , different isn't wrong . And like for you being able to speak into my life using the Enneagram , again not as a weapon , but like hey , I'm wondering if this is more of that space of the eight that you need to work through anger , or for me being able to say to you know to you like as a seven , you know embracing , you know the pain , embracing the emotions .
Speaker 2So well , last question we want to ask is you know , as you think about then relationship ? And this may be hard because you're going to be focused a lot more on what others need from you , but what would you say you might need from the rest of us , just to know about you , or just to know what you might need from us to be in relationship with
Embracing Authenticity and Engagement
Speaker 2you ?
Speaker 3I think it's important for people to know that I want a deep relationship . If you're going to begin a relationship with me , I don't want it to be superficial . I think it's important for people to know that my core emotional reaction is fear . If it's not fear , then there's anxiety of some kind , Although I'll admit I didn't realize I had anxiety until I'd had it so much that I'm like what is this thing ? It's not fear , it's not hurt . What do I do with this ? Oh , that's anxiety .
Speaker 2It's like an appendage that's always been a part of you that you start to pay attention to and you're like , oh , I do have a pinky toe .
Speaker 3Exactly .
Speaker 2I didn't know until it got hurt .
Speaker 3Right , so I think that's important to know . I think it's important to know that trust is very difficult because I've had such little of that being that I could rely on other people , so I think that's important . I would just say what I want people to know , but I don't want to take the time to tell them and I don't want to get into it . I'm fine to tell stories , but I really don't want to tell stories about myself . But I would love for people to know that I have experienced more trauma and hurt than any human should have capacity to endure , and then I would just say be authentic . And then I would just say be authentic . This would be where I'm really trying to focus on , not what others want from me , but what .
Speaker 2I need from others . It's a tough question .
Speaker 3I need authenticity and I need flexibility and I need you to be present . That last one is the hardest for people to be present , especially because I'm stepping out of my role a little bit to do something that might be something that's more prone to you than for me in terms of enjoyability . So just at least be fully engaged with me and not distracted . Be fully , fully present .
Speaker 2Yeah , I know one thing we talk about as a family , like if we're like a pet peeve , as if we're watching a movie , and especially like my son and I may have our phones and you know , looking at social media during a movie Really , and our daughter too .
Speaker 3And that just says to Harley we're not present you know , even though we're like no , we're watching the movie and doing that , but that's something that goes right along with that .
Speaker 3Now and you're fully aware , Damonon , that I have a theater background and I'm dramatic and yes , love movies and right even at one point in my life thought about going into film . Um , so if I'm there engaging in a film , honestly , quite really , I don't necessarily need this is not something I'm enjoying at the moment , but if no one else is enjoying it with me , like I'll enjoy it more if everyone's fully engaged , that's interesting . Because if you think about it ? Watching a movie together . There's not really any social interaction . So , there's not much to share if no one is watching the same things .
Speaker 2Right or partially watching .
Speaker 3Or partially watching . I cannot tell you how many times something has happened visually . And then I look around the room and I'm the only one who catches it . No one saw it , the room and I'm the only one who catches it .
Speaker 1No one saw it . That happens at my house and I won't name names .
Speaker 2Yes , but that's good for us to know . I mean , again , in giving something back to you , that's just what your preference would be , right , yeah ?
Speaker 3Right . And then I think it goes without saying that one of my hot buttons is having my freedom restricted . I mean , don't put me in a box in any way . And it's amazing how many small , subtle things can be communicated that I perceive and realistically , logically , work through and say that's kind of a box that I don't want to be in .
Speaker 1We probably need to wrap this up , but before everybody turns off their podcast , I want to say , hey , thank you , hartley , for being here and sharing so many insights and your heart , and I really appreciate that . And , kelly , you're also vulnerable when your husband's in the room . I know how that is .
Speaker 1Damon's finally like finally yes , and I want to tell everybody hey , tune into Side of Fries , look it up , and also Faith Finances and F-Bombs . Did I get that right ? Yep , and I have a new podcast that's going to be coming out soon and this podcast stars the entire Wright family all four of them and it is going to be called the Wright Way .
Speaker 2Yes , and .
Speaker 1I think that's a great podcast .
Speaker 2We got to do that . Yes , we could just get our kids on board . I think they're on board , on board .
Speaker 1I think they're on board .
Speaker 2I think they should all you guys should all do that . Yes , that would be fabulous . So fun . It's Hartley's idea .
Speaker 3You could just record your evenings , when you're all together , just do that . You're speaking into a slight , a tiny little wound that I have because I had everybody on board and we were going to do something of something of that nature .
Speaker 2Yeah , family therapy , I think , is what you're going to call it .
Speaker 3I thought about calling it family therapy . We would just talk about how we've handled things . We need to just have the mics out and have it ready and then , when it came time for commitment , madison was like no , I knew it was Madison Not going to do that Madison .
Speaker 1I knew it was you because you're a nine and I wouldn't do it either , and I understand All do it either and I understand . So all right , Well , we better wrap this up . Thanks everybody for joining us on this week's episode and , Hartley , again thank you for being here .
Speaker 3Thank you for trusting me .
Speaker 1Yes , you bet All right . Bye Kelly , Bye Damon .
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