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EnneagramU
The Power and Vulnerability of Enneagram 8s: Insights from Two Female Eights
In this enlightening episode, hosts Damon and Kelly are joined by special guest Valerie to explore the complex world of Enneagram Type 8s. Two female Eights share their personal experiences, discussing the challenges of vulnerability, the strength in directness, and the misconceptions surrounding this intense personality type. Learn about the healthy and unhealthy traits of Eights, how they navigate relationships, and what they need from others. Whether you're an Eight yourself or seeking to understand the Eights in your life, this episode offers valuable insights into the protective, passionate nature of this powerful personality type.
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Welcome to Enneagram U with Damon and Kelly, where we explore the mysteries of human personality and help you learn more about you. Whether you're a skeptic or an enthusiast, together we'll take you on a journey of self-discovery using the ancient wisdom of the Enneagram. This is Enneagram U. Hey, everyone, welcome to Enneagram U. My name is Damon and I'm here with my friend Kelly. Hi Kelly, hey Damon, kelly, I'm lucky to be alive. That's my feeling for today. I know I threw my back out. Remember how, in past podcasts, we've talked about health and my shoulders, and you know my shoe there's the shoe incident from the money episode. Yes, remember that. Yes, and you know my shoe.
Speaker 2:There's the shoe incident from the money episode. Remember that? Yes, and you were just getting back on track with your workout routine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my shoes. You guys were going to buy me new shoes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had a GoFundMe, I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I'm so cheap I can't even tie my shoes today, so that's how bad my back hurts. Oh man, yeah, but I'm. Oh man, yeah, but I'm, I'm here I'm here.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, snoop dog is uh promoting his sketchers that you just slide into I need some snoops, for sure some snoop geriatric sneakers from sketchers no tie. You know we go from children, where we get the no tie shoes, to the right elderly, right back so you hurt your back, yeah, so I?
Speaker 1:I don't know how to feel about it other than it's frustrating, and because you know you want to go, you know I don't feel bad in any other way except for that, and you just have to be so yeah but it was a great excuse to get out of our staff meeting this morning.
Speaker 2:That was awesome you still called in, so that was good except for we would ask you a question, it would be silent I would say yes.
Speaker 1:No, I said well, we can. We can do a Webex, but I'm probably laying down or walking around, so I don't know, I'm not. I'm not supposed to sit for a long period of time at a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you sat for a long period of time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's what threw my back out. Is that I was? I took a long car trip to get my mother, who visits us a couple times a year, and it was like 10 hours in the car and I'm like, yeah, no big deal, I should have been a truck driver. Nope, not anymore, I'm retired as a truck driver.
Speaker 2:It's only for the young.
Speaker 1:Yep, but Kelly, you're falling apart as well.
Speaker 2:I know, damon, this episode is just going to be so incredible because you're barely hanging on and I almost died last week with COVID, week with COVID you did. Well, I didn't I'm dramatizing it, but I had COVID for the second time. I thought for sure I had passed the window. My husband had it a few days earlier, although we didn't know he had it, and he's one that maybe it's just a seven, it doesn't matter, he just kind of keeps going, and so he thought he had like a summertime cold.
Speaker 1:He didn't even give you warning signs, did he no warning?
Speaker 2:signs until we got out on a date and we went to dinner and a movie. And we get home and he puts a sweatshirt on and I'm like uh-oh, and he was like it's chilly in here and I said, oh, you've got a fever.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:So I go sleep in the other room.
Speaker 1:Yes, of course.
Speaker 2:And then think the next day and so I can't remember who maybe he said, or my son said you should take a COVID test.
Speaker 1:I was like COVID?
Speaker 2:no way, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, positive, before he put the thing in the.
Speaker 1:Oh you know, it's going around there's been several COVID episodes of people that I know yeah and I know there's been some that have had it but haven't gotten tested. Because what do you do? You just write it out these days.
Speaker 2:But you had it pretty bad yeah well, I mean, it was similar to the first time I had it so you have like. I woke up with a bad sore throat I hate that. I was like oh and then I think the thing that's the worst is just you have fever. So like I had fever for like four, four days that's awful yeah and then ended up with more of a sinus infection.
Speaker 1:Oh, so I actually asked myself that question Would I rather have COVID or the bad back? And the answer is I'd rather have a bad back than COVID. So you had it worse than I do. Well, I mean, I mean not chronic. Hopefully this is going to go away, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and it's one of those things that every day, you're starting to feel better. So, that's great, but yeah, as an eight. I do not like to be limited.
Speaker 1:Right. So how did you do your feeling?
Speaker 2:No, so I feel, I feel alive. Yeah, what drugs are you on? I'm on a muscle relaxer. You mean this week, or?
Speaker 1:just usual In general.
Speaker 2:In general, yeah, so no, I feel much better. I feel grateful to feel much better. Yeah, and I'm grateful that this month we're talking about the eight it is your month.
Speaker 1:It is the month for the eight. If only we had another eight here to talk about it with us. I know we do.
Speaker 2:Who do we have? We do we have the wonderful, the one, the only Valerie. Hello guys, hello.
Speaker 1:Hey, step up to the mic, Valerie. Everyone wants to hear your voice.
Speaker 3:I'm not so sure about that.
Speaker 1:There it is, yes.
Speaker 3:Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Oh, we are so happy to have you here. Poor Damon, Like he's got two eights and a bad back.
Speaker 1:I'm signing off right now.
Speaker 3:Good luck, have fun you two. Bye Smart man. You got to rein us in because as eights we could probably go on and on and on. We like to control the conversation, yes.
Speaker 1:I haven't noticed.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much, valerie for being here with us.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:One of the first questions we ask is just kind of your journey with the Enneagram. How did you figure out you were an eight? What was that like for you? Well, it was a hard process.
Speaker 3:I was that like for you. Well, it was a hard process. I was in denial. I did not think that I was an eight, so I don't know if you remember this, kelly, or not. So I did. This was before you were at VU. I had just moved to Columbia and my sister, I think, had dabbled a little bit in like Enneagram and things like that and she had found a weekend retreat that you were doing prior to VU and it was during no, it wasn't during COVID, was it? What year was that?
Speaker 2:I think it was during COVID, because it was virtual.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, like maybe the beginning of COVID. And she said, hey, I've got this two-day weekend retreat on the Enneagram, if you want to do it with me. I was like, well, I can't go anywhere, I don't have anything to do. Sure, I'll do it. Captive audience. Do, sure, I'll do it, captive audience. So yeah, we went to her house and holed up for two days and watched Kelly on a screen and talked about all the Enneagram numbers, and so we had taken the pre-test before the retreat. And we took it and it said you're an eight. I was like, no, nope, I'm not an eight. Eights are mean. I don't like this, absolutely not. Screw that, I am a two, I am a two. I was convinced that I didn't test right. And so my sister's like, okay, well, we'll figure it out, we'll retest later. So we went through the whole weekend retreat and went through all the numbers, deep dive into them which I loved.
Speaker 3:It was probably halfway into the second day. I was like yep, I'm an eight. Sure like it or not, I'm an eight here we are embrace it, and I think you had a similar. You thought you were a two as well. I think these eight we just don't like what we are, but then, once you realize it, you're like you know what this is me, we gotta embrace it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I think, like our stories are similar, we're probably conditioned to be more of twos. You know, to be the helper versus to really feel free to be you know leaders.
Speaker 1:It's a secret plot by the other numbers to keep you guys down. Keep that eight in check.
Speaker 3:That's right. We do need to be put in check sometimes. Yes, very true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but for you, like you said, it was probably a mixed bag. Like no, there's no way I can be an eight.
Speaker 1:But then also like okay, this is yeah who?
Speaker 3:I am. Yeah, it's like I liked the healthy parts of eight. Those were great. I'm like sticking up for the little guy and being a leader and being powerful and bold, those are great words. But then you get to the unhealthy side of it and it's like you're a bully and you're aggressive and I'm just like, no, that's not me at all. A little introspection and I might have a little of that. I might have just a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, they do say that on the other side of an eight sometimes the people are experiencing our intensity and we don't experience it, because it's just something we're used to. And so, yeah, having to have those people around us to go. Okay, your intensity meter is way up there.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, and that has had to be told to me a few times. But I will say learning about the eight. I think it's helped me with that because now I'm aware of those things about myself myself. So when I tend to get to that aggressiveness or defensiveness I'm real quick to get defensive if I'm not in a healthy place and one. It makes me more aware of those things about myself that I may not have paid attention to before. Just I was who I was.
Speaker 3:And now I'm like, oh wow, that was a little aggressive, and especially when you go beyond and learn other people's numbers, like my sister is a two and she is so tender hearted and so sensitive and she cries at commercials guys. So, like you know, if I look at her wrong she would cry. So like, and having just that reality of like hey, when I speak to her, sometimes when I'm in those unhealthy places, that really hurts her because of how she receives that being a number two. So it's really allowed me to kind of just see it as a whole, not just other people's numbers, but like take accountability for some of those negative things that come out sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think that's such a healthy view, especially for eights. I have heard from eights more than probably any other number Well, I'm an eight and that's just who I am, you know, and it's like no, it doesn't give us just freedom to be bullies or jerks to everybody.
Speaker 2:It gives us just the ability to see, like, where we need to maybe have that sensitivity towards someone else, because, yeah, we may have a kind of intense protective exterior, but underneath is that tender heart and we would never want to make someone cry, right, I mean, unless they really deserved it.
Speaker 3:Right Now, if you're picking on someone. I want to make you cry, Okay.
Speaker 1:Here's my observation about both of you.
Speaker 2:Two minutes in. Damon's already got his pick. Oh God, this is funny.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is funny or not, but you're a counselor, Kelly. So, there's a little bit of two there that you would think, oh, you've got to be a two because you're a counselor, and I wouldn't mention this, valerie, but you mentioned your accent, and so are you from Missouri.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't think so. I just moved here five years ago.
Speaker 1:Where is your accent from? Well?
Speaker 3:it's probably a little bit of everywhere. So I was raised in northern Louisiana and then in college I moved to Mississippi and then here.
Speaker 1:So Louisiana, Mississippi, my whole life. Okay, so the observation is the southern accent is quite disarming. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's very caring.
Speaker 1:a lot of times when I met people with the southern accent I'll think, oh, how sweet that is. And then they'll say and bless your heart. And then I've learned pretty quickly that that might not be a good thing.
Speaker 3:It might not be a good thing. You never know, you never know, and that's the thing about it, we can use it in every way we want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you both can sneak up on people so that's good, that is true Interesting. Yes we don't have to go through the front door.
Speaker 2:We can go through the side window back door.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh gosh, that's funny.
Speaker 1:Bless your heart.
Speaker 3:You are in the doghouse I clutch my pearls. You know, bless your heart. That's so funny.
Speaker 2:Well, like you were saying too, valerie, and just some of those things that you embrace about the eight being protective, being someone who fights for the underdog, you know how have you seen some of those things really play out in your life as you've now known that you're an eight.
Speaker 3:I feel like, as far as like seeing those like again, like I'm more aware that I do those things now Before. I feel like, as far as like seeing this like again, like I'm more aware that I do those things now before.
Speaker 3:I don't think I was very self-aware, good or bad, like I, you know people would say stuff and I'd be like, ah, you know, and you know some people were like, oh, you're modest or whatever. And I'm like, no, I'm just not aware, like I don't really, I just go. I really tend to from the A, pull the like. I get really protective over people and that doesn't always come out in a good way. It's got like good intentions behind it. I'm always meaning something good by it. But then when I feel like someone I care about is attacked, I'm going on the attack and that is where it doesn't come out very healthy. But it comes from a good place and so if that's directed at someone, that can be a little intimidating a little bit. I try not to show that side. But again, don't come for my people.
Speaker 1:Don't come for my people.
Speaker 3:You heard it here.
Speaker 1:Be warned.
Speaker 3:No, we were talking about this at work right before I left, and my boss Amber I've pegged her as a one. She's never taken the test, but I'm like you're a one, I've learned so much about it. I feel like that. I kind of diagnose, in a way, every single one around me. But she said so, what is the number eight? Anyway, I was like, well, we kind of get a bad rap. You know, we're like we're not afraid of confrontation. She's like wait, you like confrontation? I was like no, I don't like it, I don't seek it out, but I'm not afraid of it. You know, if it needs to be done, I'll step to the forefront and I'll do it. You know I'm not. The intention behind it is usually positive.
Speaker 3:So I just have to embrace it and hope it comes out in a positive way.
Speaker 2:And, like you said, awareness is a key.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I know that I can sometimes, especially like in an unhealthy place, be abrasive and a little aggressive in my delivery of things, and I don't want to be that way. So just being aware that I can be that way kind of puts me in check. In the moment I still might react in that way, but I'm able to be like okay, wait, take a step back. This is you acting in an unhealthy way. Let's try to pull that back in and do it in a healthier way.
Speaker 3:So, it does make you a lot more self-aware, which I really like it is. I would say I'm not the easiest person to have a relationship with, though in kind of any form. I mean I'm. I have a really like close-knit. Of course, as number eight, we hate vulnerability, so I have a real big wall here. So you know, I got to trust you with everything, to even let you kind of in my little world you know, so that's a challenge for like relationships, whether it's friendships, co-workers or you know any type of relationship in my life.
Speaker 3:But you know, just learning more about yourself, it's all you know. It's a lifelong lifelong journey. But this has definitely helped because, you know, sometimes I think I was that person at one point that was like, well, it's just the way I am, yeah, but it doesn't have to be the way I am. You know, I can still have those same traits, but do it in a positive way. And I do have like a lot of the two traits. You know we do go to two in a healthy place.
Speaker 3:So learning that too, like it's not all bad Right. Yes, I can be sweet sometimes, but yeah, it's just been super informative and allows me to have better relationships with other people and just understand myself better.
Speaker 2:I feel like you know have these representations and then other personalities have other characteristics that are a part of that, and then how do we work together? Versus having to conform to be something that we're not, Because if we have all the strengths and all the healthy parts not that we're always going to be healthy, but even that when we're having a bad day and we're maybe more leaning in that average or unhealthy not to be misunderstood, Because I think what happens is for us as eights, if we get misunderstood, then we kind of kick into that control.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:How do I control the narrative?
Speaker 3:How do I?
Speaker 2:keep myself from being vulnerable. How do I protect myself here?
Speaker 1:So you've let your coworkers know you're an eight.
Speaker 3:Yes, I have an eight sticker on my desk. It's there. There's no excuse to not know.
Speaker 1:I'm an eight and probably new people are like what's that?
Speaker 3:They're like stay away from that desk. We literally had this conversation before I came here.
Speaker 1:That means stay away from that desk. So what did that conversation look like, you know, with the coworkers? I mean, because maybe other people should do that as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was some of the people in. We kind of have a little bit of a new team right now. There's a couple of us that have been there a little while and then we have like three new members, and so I was telling them today. I said we really need to do this as a team, especially now that we have new people, because, like, it just lets you know how to communicate and how to relate with other people and what their needs are and how they respond, and in the workplace that's so important and knowing how to communicate with other people and how they receive it.
Speaker 3:And so John Lightman, he sits across from me. He's like what do you think I am? Because I was like I know what you're not.
Speaker 1:Sorry, John, I can narrow it down but I know what you're not.
Speaker 3:And he said, well, I'm going to take those stats. So he took it real quick. He said it says I'm an eight. I said, hmm, I can see that. And as a fellow eight, I was like but to be fair, we can all take the test.
Speaker 1:I had to take it a couple times because it can be confusing.
Speaker 3:I think it's like any other personality test. When you take it, you kind of answer like this is what I think I would do, what I would like myself to do. You lie to yourself, yes, and I found it really interesting because my younger sister had not overtaken it and my older sister and I we're all about the Enneagram. So when she took it the first time, she said, oh, I'm a number one. I said no, you're not. This is the directness of the eight.
Speaker 1:right there I said let's take this again.
Speaker 3:And so basically, we read the questions to her and we said we kind of had to explain, like, what would drive you to do this, you know? And she was like, oh well, that makes me think about it completely differently. Well, I would do this and we're like that's what you got to stick to. Is what motivates you to do this thing. Not, would you do this? Because I think it's easy to answer what you would want to do and I think you get a lot of false results from that.
Speaker 2:We can sell ourself on anything. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So once we finally got that done, I think we pinned her. But yeah, that's what I was telling my team today. And another girl was like what do you think I am? I was like oh, I think you're a two or a nine. She was like actually I'm a seven. I said, well know, do you like to like say, oh, we don't worry about that, let's just go do that? She was like oh, absolutely like, I don't want to focus on anything important, I just want to go have fun, go live in the moment. I was like you're number seven.
Speaker 1:Then yeah, that's right, that's right so it's so fun.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, I told Amber I wanted our, our team to do that, just because I think it's. It's just such a good like growing and learning about each other. And yeah, also, it's a fair warning about me.
Speaker 1:So there, yeah, I can't say they don't, they weren't warned so you guys both said, uh, you've met people, or kelly, you said you met people and you said, valerie, that, oh, I'm just an eight right like that's who I am, and it's almost like we'll deal with it right a little bit, but I have. Here's some advice for all the other numbers. When you see somebody that's eight, you just say, oh, that's Valerie, she's just an eight. Yes, you know we can do that right back. Yes, that's why she's like that.
Speaker 3:She's an eight. She's an eight.
Speaker 1:Oh, I get it now. It's true, it can go both ways.
Speaker 3:It's true, it actually feels more healthy the way and helpful the way I said it yeah, in a sense that does allow I mean, it certainly does not give a pass for, like the negative parts that come out in an A you know, we should never intentionally be aggressive and that should never be acceptable, right? But I do think it allows you to help understand. So, like, if I react in that way, my sister's like, okay, she's feeling defensive, she's feeling, you know, like I have somehow crossed her boundary, like let's re-approach this so she understands me and I understand her, and that has helped in our relationship.
Speaker 2:I mean if you could get any better.
Speaker 3:she's like my best friend, but even in our close relationship, it helps us understand why the person's being that way. And it's not intentional and it's not about you, so I think that that has really helped in even the closest of relationships.
Speaker 2:For sure, and I think for eights especially, like you mentioned, the one thing that is like kryptonite to us is vulnerability, and so when you have that sense of being known and being in a relationship with someone that you can trust whether it's family, friends, co-workers- I mean, those are such gifts and I think for people to recognize the gift that they are to eight, that we can trust them to be vulnerable, but then also the gift that it is that we can be ourselves with them too, so it plays both a lot yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:It takes a lot to get to that place and be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:It does for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah and to stay vulnerable.
Speaker 2:I know there's constantly this ticker tape in my mind about why I shouldn't be and having to fight against that.
Speaker 3:a lot of times it always just I mean, I kind of just envy the people who that just comes naturally to, because it is such a struggle. I mean probably for all eights, but certainly for me it is. But what number is that? That's very vulnerable, easily vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Is that a two? Probably, probably be a two. They're just kind of an open book. Yeah, they're an open book. Take me, love me here I am and I'm like stay away from me, You're too close. We say to the twos no, that is not safe. That's not safe. Let me protect you. Yes, you can be safe with me, but don't say that to anybody else. That's right, I'll be your protector.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's so true, that's funny, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and so, as you're talking about just relationships, it's been very helpful, it sounds like, especially in relationships with others and helping them know what their numbers are too, Because I know I think, when I very first started at VU, you and Vanessa reached out and you were like we're sisters, we love the. Enneagram and just even having your family take it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my whole family's taken it. Pretty much everyone in our life has taken it All our friends, all our family. I need to know everything about you if you're going to be in my circle. So here's the Enneagram.
Speaker 2:Here's the entry point. Here's your test. That's so true, but I think too, it gives us a freedom to be able to say, and I think, especially for us as female eights and again I know this is the lens that I look through and have looked through, so I'm biased in that, biased in that, but I think in other female eights, you know, in conversations with them it gives us freedom to actually be ourselves versus having to feel like we have to condition ourselves to be something different.
Speaker 2:You know, being able to say you know, okay, this is my personality and you know if I am, you know, coming across aggressive, like I want to give you permission, like to let me know because I may not see that. But I trust you that you will let me know, because I don't want to be aggressive. This is coming from a place of love, but if I'm too intense and too passionate about it, it's going to come across as you're my enemy. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And I think understanding that about that person allows that open communication. If somebody had come to me before I was self-aware, I would have immediately been on the defensive.
Speaker 1:Like, how dare you say that to me? Like I'm not you know, because I couldn't see it.
Speaker 3:I couldn't see that. But, yeah, this has allowed me to be like you know, you're right, I absolutely was that way, you know, and I think it allows you to be able to, you know, take accountability and be able to say you're sorry for hurting someone because it's certainly not intentional, but I don't know that I was self aware enough to do that before.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, and you know, when we think about that self awareness of you, know, that sense of like, what is it like to walk in my shoes, you know. But then a question we ask so often too as we relating to others, is what is it like to be on the other side of me? And so I think, for us, as eights, you know, okay, what is it like to walk in my shoes, Because I think our perspective is usually outward focused. Okay, so what is it that this person needs? This person needs? How do I need to intervene or help? Right Kind of, you know. They say we're, you know, like a superhero with our cape.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't like to look inside so that's the easy part, let's just look at everybody else. Look at everybody else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that sense of self-awareness to pause, to just go. Okay, I'm going to hold myself with grace and love here, but also I need to be aware of what might be going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I think can be really challenging for us, as we've been just more focused outward and avoiding vulnerability. Right, it takes courage to look inside. Yes, it does.
Speaker 3:I'm not very brave. I know it says I'm brave as an eight, but I'm just brave outwardly, not internally.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that is so true, there was an image I saw like a meme a couple years ago, so it had a kid in a swimming pool. You know, two different pictures. And so the first picture was what eights look on the outside, and it was like this kid just swimming, you know, just in the water, having a great old time. And then the second picture was what an eight really feels like on the inside, and it was just like this. You know, underneath the water, the surface, it was like struggle kind of like the duck you know, on the outside they look calm, yeah, under the surface.
Speaker 2:We've been on a good phase, but the trap that I think eights can fall into is, more externally, focusing on other people and letting the chaos continue and not even having an awareness of the chaos being there until there's that gut knowing or, as I, as I've shared my stories of you know, even my body letting me know that you know I need to be cared for. You're done. I can only soldier through so much so yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm the same way. I will just continue on until my body's like you're done. I'm stopping, I'm shutting down. I'll either get sick or you know, and it's like you won't stop.
Speaker 2:So right, here we go. I got to stop you. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely me. Yeah, well, when you think about just that self-awareness. So what is it like to be on the other side of you when you're in that healthy place, oh, when?
Speaker 3:I'm in a healthy place. It's great this is the best. I mean, I feel like and I actually asked my sister this last night because, you know, I don't know what it's like to be on the other side of me you know, I can only guess, and so I did ask her and she literally said oh, on the other side of you she was like you're a caretaker, you want to help other people, you jump to be the leader of everything, but not in a controlling way.
Speaker 3:Not like I'm going to control this situation, but just be like let me take care of this you know, kind of in that caretaker mode, but just taking charge and being a leader without trying to control the situation, which is the flip side when you're unhealthy. You want to control the situation because you don't want to let it go, you know.
Speaker 3:so you can definitely have that controlling in both the positive and negative. I'm more patient when I'm in a healthy place. I don't get defensive. Yeah, I definitely think I'm just more laid back in general when I'm in a healthy place, I don't get defensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely think I'm just more laid back in general when I'm in a healthy place.
Speaker 3:I'm not anxiety-ridden and worried about this and worried about that controlling things, which is, I think, a pretty big battle for me, and I'm sure that has to do with being a number eight, but I like to control every situation and when I don't, I feel like, in a sense, my independence is being taken away. And number eight, but like I like to control every situation and when I don't, I feel like, in a sense, my independence being taken away. And you know we, as number eights, we're independent. Don't try to take that from us.
Speaker 3:You know, don't try to control us. Tell us we can't be independent.
Speaker 2:So I can definitely get a little. Well and that's a great point I've heard it said and this totally resonated with me that ones don't or sorry, eights don't necessarily want control. They don't want to be controlled. Yes, and so, in order to not be controlled, I need to control, Because if we feel controlled, we feel boxed in. Absolutely yes.
Speaker 3:Independence is very important to me, yes, and it's so interesting because I mean, I've had people say, oh, you know, let me help you with this, and I'm almost like no, I got it, I got it. And I'm like you know. Normally you would just be like you know, thank you. No, it's totally fine, you know, but it's almost taken as like do you think I can't do this, you know? And it's just like where does that come from? That's so sad. I don't want to be that way.
Speaker 3:You know, but it is it that today. But yeah, definitely the independence. And it's so interesting because coming from a household like my sister is a number two and she is the opposite, and I'm like how did we grow up in the same household and be completely different? But again, knowing each other and these things about each other, it helps us relate even better. Because she is not an independent person. She's like you know, nope, somebody can do it for me. I want to be with people, very dependent, and I'm just like I'm good, I'm good, I don't need anybody, don't need anything, right, you know?
Speaker 3:and that's not always a good thing.
Speaker 2:Well, you see the nature and the nurture you know, that you can tell, even sometimes with babies, just the different personalities you babies, just the different personalities, Even though we're raised in the same home, the same parents. It's different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my mom has said, ever since I could walk, I was spitting orders and not taking help. So apparently it's been since I could walk. You do this, you do that, leave me alone.
Speaker 1:Are you also first born?
Speaker 3:I'm not, I'm the middle, I'm the middle child. I don't know, maybe that's a middle child syndrome too. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I've seen it also in like we have family friends that they have five kids and their youngest is the second girl and when she was a baby she was spitting out orders to her older siblings.
Speaker 1:I don't know if we can say there's a direct correlation to birth order and Enneagram.
Speaker 2:I don't know, that's another book for Kelly.
Speaker 3:We're waiting, Kelly. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Well, and so you mentioned like on the healthy side, just, you know, very patient very much like I don't want to control. That's all I just want to come alongside and help. Yeah, what would it be like on the other side of you and you're unhealthy.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's not great. That's not great. I'm definitely defensive. I can be. I hate using the word aggressive because it sounds so bad and I don't mean like obviously physically aggressive. This is where you have to be vulnerable. No, I don't do that. I'm going to write.
Speaker 1:I don't either. I just make stuff up, so go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's almost like I'm responding in like attack mode almost.
Speaker 1:That defensive.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's just that like aggressive voice and it's not I don't know, and I've definitely been called out on it, so I definitely know I do that and it does come from the defense mechanism. If I think someone is either trying to control me or take away my independence or tell me I can't do something, I immediately go up, that wall goes up and I'm very bold, direct, and bold and direct can be good in a positive way as well, but definitely not in this sense. It's I say what I mean and I don't really care how it comes out, and that's the unhealthy part of that, like directness, is great.
Speaker 3:Say what you mean, mean what you say. But you can do it in a kind way and not in an aggressive way Right if it's motivated more from that unhealthy place. Right.
Speaker 2:That can be where it can feel more like shots fired. That can be where it can feel more like shots fired. Yes Towards someone.
Speaker 3:Yes, like I feel attacked, and so, therefore, I'm attacking back.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And definitely lose patience.
Speaker 1:I don't have as much patience.
Speaker 3:I do like to control the situation when I'm in a negative space, because it just makes me feel more secure. Yeah, you know. So yeah, being on the unhealthy side of an eight is not usually a great place to be. It's not. It's not fun, especially if you are a number two and you're sensitive because you you know, you don't, you don't know how to take that Right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think you know, since eights pretty much are direct if you're on the on the wrong side of an eight, you know, or if there's challenges, the person's probably going to know it. You know whether it's they feel it in the atmosphere or we might say, yeah, that's so true, we don't have that poker face? What is?
Speaker 1:the aftermath of that. Let's say you're in an unhealthy, you're aware. First of all, to set that context, you're aware, I know I'm an eight, so we won't go back to any time where you were unaware. And then you have that unhealthy moment with someone. Later is there a little bit like remorse, of like, oh, I attacked that person a little too hard and I shouldn't have, and I didn't realize I was even doing it. What's an eight? Go through after the fact.
Speaker 3:There is for me now that I'm aware Absolutely, and usually it doesn't even take that long, especially if it's someone that I'm close to and I know how that was received for them. If it's someone I'm not close to and I have no idea how that was received, I probably will think about it, but I don't know that I would go right to that person. But if it's someone that I care about and that I know and I know how that was probably received from them, yes, absolutely, I would immediately be like that was not meant the way it came off, and I think that I've said I'm sorry more in my life since the Enneagram than ever before.
Speaker 3:Because I, just as an aide and just maybe my general personality, I'm not great at saying I'm sorry. I'm not good at taking accountability, yes and being able to accept that I did something wrong. Even if I know I did, it's still hard to say that and I think that is part of that vulnerability part that we struggle with. But yeah, I would absolutely say I say I'm sorry a lot more now.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:A lot more now. That's interesting. Yeah, you guys have both said a word. That's over and over, notice I haven't had to talk.
Speaker 3:This is really good. I wasn't surprised about that.
Speaker 1:Me and Kelly can talk for hours. I actually went to the bathroom and came back. You guys didn't even know I was gone, but you both use the word direct a lot and I think that that says what an eight is in a very positive way. I know, like with my relationship with Kelly, I can go to her and I can say just about anything to her directly, so you can receive direct information pretty well.
Speaker 1:Other people may react differently. They maybe even overreact. And an eight is I don't know what it is about your superpower, but you're able to take hard news and and digest that usually correctly and be okay with it. So, probably what makes you a good counselor, too, is because you do hear hard things, sure, and then you can always expect the eight usually to say exactly what they're thinking, I think, most of the time in a healthy situation. It's like here it is.
Speaker 1:And it's just laid right out out there, and so on the receiving end of that, we, just as other numbers, have to go. Okay, that's, that was the bottom line, you know, like we don't have to think too much I actually like that a lot because it just kind of cuts to it where I'm more political, so it'll take me a long time to get to where.
Speaker 1:Here's what I really mean. I tried to massage this conversation enough so that I didn't hurt you too much, but you know what I mean. But where it's just like no, I'm just going to punch you in the face With love, in love With love In love, but it's actually really. I think that can be really healthy yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely think that directness has more healthy than unhealthy. I mean certainly if you're in an unhealthy place, it can come across the wrong way. That you're in a healthy place. That can come across the wrong way. That's not so kind.
Speaker 2:But I always prefer someone to be direct with me.
Speaker 3:I don't want to. I have enough anxiety. I don't want to question and wonder and think did they?
Speaker 2:mean this? Did they mean that?
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I'd rather someone be direct with me and positive or negative, I'm okay with it, you know. As long as I know it's direct and it's the truth, I can handle it good or bad. And I do try to be that way, Even in a healthy place. I try to say things intentionally and as clear as I can. Sometimes I miss the mark and have to go back and clarify a little bit, but at the end of the day I do think people appreciate that.
Speaker 2:For sure. I think, like you said, being thoughtful, so like thinking before we speak, is important, so that way we can really lean into the two and the five, being contemplative, like okay, how do I want to word this? What is a way that? I can word this in love, so speaking the truth in love is important.
Speaker 1:I think that's why eights make good leaders because you make decisions making right. It's very clear. And if you could add the kind part to that clear and kind.
Speaker 3:it's great. As long as we're healthy, we can be kind as long as things are going our way, it's all good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if everything is going our way, we are kind as can be, Well, last thought too, valerie, as we're thinking through, you know, we're looking at relationships and the different numbers, so anything that you would say that you really need from your relationships with others, so, like others that are in relationships with you and I know you just mentioned like being direct, you know, and you've mentioned too throughout like just being known and having that understanding. Anything else you'd say?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, patience for me personally, because it does take me time to trust people and be vulnerable. I think just being patient with a number eight is important to allow that time. We have a lot of boundaries and we put a lot of walls up. So I think just being patient with a number eight and understanding how they are and why they're that way, and maybe just giving them a little more grace in that.
Speaker 3:Let's see what else. That's definitely important. I don't want to give eights an excuse for being not healthy, so I don't want to say anything like that, Just give them a pass for being a jerk.
Speaker 2:I don't want to say that. Well, no, the eights are going to have those bad days, though that's true, and maybe not taking those days personally. Personally, because it's not about you?
Speaker 3:It's not about you In most cases, you know, it's just the result of how we are. And you know, we're very protective of ourselves and of other people and if we feel, like you know, those boundaries are crossed, we're on defense.
Speaker 3:And you know, sometimes it's not directed at you, but it kind of might be the result of that. Being in a relationship with an aide I imagine is hard. I mean I'm sure it is. I don't do eights even have like a go-to Like. You know how they always say like in, like gymnize, and you know whatever it is oh compatibility. Yeah so do eights have that Could an eight and an eight work.
Speaker 3:No, there aren't any, I know, but I'm wondering would an eight and an eight be too much? Oh, an eight and eight would be too much.
Speaker 2:Actually, any number with their own numbers is too much.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking an eight and an eight and I'm like, wow, that could be dangerous. Yeah, Because it's just a fight for power.
Speaker 2:Eights and twos are good together and I think eights and sixes also have a good rapport together, and what we've found in the compatibility is just if you're healthy, you can be A lot of numbers. A lot in relationship with a lot of numbers, but the ones that are going to come easier there are going to be yeah, two would make sense to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I feel like an eight has a lot of the two characteristics anyway, when they're healthy, and so I feel like that would be a really compatible. But bless their heart.
Speaker 1:They got to understand an eight.
Speaker 2:They got to understand the eight. They would be the ones that would read up on us and know what's needed.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, and I think appreciating, so yeah, patience, I think appreciating their independence and eights, understanding that they really value their independence and they don't like to be controlled and giving them that freedom. I think to be able to be their own person, I think is probably crucial in a relationship with an eight. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know one of the things my husband said to me. This has been several months ago but it continues to be the greatest gift, because I always feel like I'm too much and I think for eights there can be that thing of like I'm too much, my life's too much even though.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't want it any other way, right we?
Speaker 2:wouldn't change it. We just don't want to complain about it. I'm not saying it's too much, but he said to me. He said you just lead a big life, yeah. And it wasn't like, oh, you lead a big life, it was like, no, this is just you. And I felt so understood in that moment and just so grateful. And so, whenever my self-talk might be oh, people think I'm doing too much or got too much going, but I'm reminded no, my closest person is encouraging me. No, this is just who you are.
Speaker 3:My mom literally told me last night you have too much going on. You just need to get rid of some of that stuff and I'm like like what? There's nothing I would drop. Yes, I'm exhausted and I'm probably going to complain about it, but I wouldn't trade any of it. I need to be doing all of these things. They're all important to me for different reasons yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's not too much. No, I mean it may be For someone else.
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, we can handle it. A's can handle it, we're strong. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:So the things that exhaust you are also the Correct, and so that is the tension you guys walk.
Speaker 2:It is that's true. It is the tension.
Speaker 3:So true yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, that was a lot about the eight. I would say this is the eight go-to podcast for sure for this week. Anyway, if you need to know about the eight, if you were standing in my shoes right now, I can't even feel my lower back, but I would say you guys have both been so, so helpful.
Speaker 2:Do you have any more questions, kelly?
Speaker 1:no, valerie, thank you so much for being here, and so everyone tell your friends about this podcast, valerie spread the word yep, she was a great guest yes, so we're so thankful to have you and you guys. Take care and I'll see you next time. Bye Kelly, bye Damon. What you do Without love in your heart, without love by your side, without love playing a part.