59. Tania Johnson and the Institute of Child Psychology

In today’s episode, we get to spend time with Tania Johnson from Edmonton Alberta. Tania is a registered psychologist and co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology. She shares her journey from growing up in South Africa to becoming a leader in child psychology and play therapy in Canada. She discusses the importance of play therapy, strategies for raising resilient children, and the crucial role of parental relationships in child development. Our conversation also explores the challenges and developments in mental health for children, the impact of neurodivergence, and the significance of creating nurturing environments. We delve into the critical aspects of intentional parenting, offering insights into how parents can navigate the complex landscape of raising children in today's world.

Connect With Tania
The Institute of Child Psychology
The Child Psych App

Tania's Books
The Parenting Handbook
myparentinghandbook.com

Books
Hold on to Your Kids
Anatomy of Peace

This Golden Hour
Free eBook Course
thisgoldenhour.org

Transcript

Tania Johnson: 0:00

For children, their language is play. It's not words. It's play. And so as play therapists, we're taught how to code children's play, how to look for themes in their play. And then we look at that coding. We look at the toys they're choosing. We look at their play. We look at how the themes develop in-their play and From that, we're able to begin to figure out what's happening underneath for them.

Timmy Eaton: 0:26

Hi, I'm Timmy Eaton, homeschool father of six and doctor of education. We've been homeschooling for more than 15 years and have watched our children go from birth to university successfully and completely without the school system. Homeschooling has grown tremendously in recent years and tons of parents are becoming interested in trying it out. But people have questions and concerns and misconceptions and lack the confidence to get started. New and seasoned homeschoolers are looking for more knowledge and peace and assurance to continue homeschooling. The guests and discussions on this podcast will empower anyone thinking of homeschooling to bring their kids home and start homeschooling. And homeschoolers at all stages of the journey will get what they need and want from these conversations. Thank you for joining us today and enjoy this episode of this Golden Hour Podcast as you exercise, drive, clean, or just chill. You're listening to this Golden Hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time with Tanya Johnson from Edmonton, Alberta. Tanya is a registered psychologist and co founder of the Institute of Child Psychology. She shares her journey from growing up in South Africa to becoming a leader in child psychology and play therapy in Canada. She discusses the importance of play therapy strategies for raising resilient children and the crucial role of parental relationships in child development. Our conversation also explores the challenges and developments In mental health for children, the impact of neurodivergence and the significance of creating nurturing environments, we delve into the critical aspects of intentional parenting, offering insights into how parents can navigate the complex landscape of raising children in today's world. Welcome back to this golden hour podcast today. We have with us Tanya Johnson from the Edmonton area, but not from there You're from South Africa originally.

Tania Johnson: 2:18

That's correct. So how long

Timmy Eaton: 2:20

have you lived in Alberta?

Tania Johnson: 2:22

Oh, a long time. I'm going to say 16 years, 17 years, believe it or not. Oh, wow.

Timmy Eaton: 2:27

Okay. So that's you and me both. We're similar. So I'm from the States and so I've been here for a while, but let me just do a little intro and then let you give a bio also and talk some talk about the great work that you guys are doing. Tanya is a mother and she is a registered psychologist and a registered play therapist, which I definitely want you to help us understand more about that. She's also co founder of the Institute of Child Psychology with Tammy Shamoon, and they're the hosts of the Child Psych Podcast. And we're really excited to talk about um, they're both authors of the parenting handbook, your guide to raising resilient children. And so this is a homeschooling podcast but so many relevant things there for our audience. So thank you for joining with us.

Tania Johnson: 3:09

Oh, it's an honor to be here. Thank you, Tim.

Timmy Eaton: 3:11

I appreciate that. And would you mind giving us a little bio of yourself?

Tania Johnson: 3:15

As you mentioned, I was raised and grew up in South Africa. And after finishing my undergraduate degree, I went to Taiwan and I always joke that's where I met my future husband and he proposed while I was in Taiwan before I'd ever experienced an Albertan winter. I think had it been the other way around, I might've said no, but he caught me before I'd been here. He's from here. So we both landed up in Taiwan to teach English. And then I actually went to Chicago and I did a one year internship where you are now. I was just mentioning that Chicago is such a beautiful city. And then we moved to Alberta and I finished my graduate degree, got my master's, became a registered psychologist, followed that up to become a registered play therapist. I worked for a little while in private practice which was absolutely wonderful. And that's actually where I met Tammy, which was the beginning of the Institute.

Timmy Eaton: 4:06

Wow. Okay. That's, that was good. That was concise. Um, Yeah. And so, what happened from there? Tell us, cause tell us how that got to be a thing between the two of you.

Tania Johnson: 4:16

Yeah. Part of what we experienced in private practice, and I still do some clinical work, but part of what we were experiencing, we're both registered play therapists, is that we would have. These children come in and we would work with them, but each week that they would come, we would just be able to do a tiny little bit of work. And really what I wanted to be doing was talking to the child's parents, to their teachers, to their coaches, to the grandparents. And it was driving me crazy. It was, it felt really slow. And I really wanted to be talking to their village. And Tammy and I were talking and talking, what are we going to do? How are we going to do this? And then Tammy actually came to me and said, What if we just start? Presenting some of the stuff that we'd be talking to parents about over 12 weeks. So generally when kids come in for therapy, we'll see the parents, then we'll do four sessions with the kid, then we'll see the parents. But it's like little pieces of information that's given out over usually three, four months. And she said, what if we just sat them down like for a day and said, yeah, this is what we would give you over three months. So Tammy actually did the first one by herself. She did it on childhood anxiety and yeah. It was fantastic. And then we said, why don't we just start moving this across Canada? And then slowly childhood anxiety morphed into courses on emotion regulation, which went into courses on ADHD and then depression. So it just, it grew and grew by itself. But it was just such an honor to be able to sit with the people who are truly making a difference in a child's world.

Timmy Eaton: 5:46

Oh that's beautiful to see that kind of more from where you had begun. Can you give us a good understanding? What is play therapy?

Tania Johnson: 5:54

So play therapy is amazing. So when we think about what we would expect as an adult going into therapy, we sit often, not always, therapy is becoming a little bit more creative, but often we sit across from our therapist and we talk about what's happening for us. For children, their language is play. It's not words. It's play. And so as play therapists, we're taught how to code children's play, how to look for themes in their play. And then we look at that coding. We look at the toys they're choosing. We look at their play. We look at how the themes develop in their play and From that, we're able to begin to figure out what's happening underneath for them. And then we gradually use play to help them to process what they might be struggling with, whether that's anxiety, whether that's trauma, whether it's just building confidence. And there's so much beautiful research now that shows that when children play, they're basically working through different needs.

Timmy Eaton: 6:50

Wow, that's really helpful. That's really helpful. And what's the typical age range of kids that you are with?

Tania Johnson: 6:57

Yeah, so you can come as young as three for play therapy. Generally I find my three, four year olds, it ends up being quite a bit of parent work, but they can come in at three or four and we can go to play. Generally, I see that it's great for kids age 5 to 11, 12 ish. And then with my teenagers, when they come in, because we've been trained, I'm still often using a lot of the techniques that I use with the young kids. I'm just adapting it a little bit.

Timmy Eaton: 7:22

And is there like a predominant, Concern that you've noticed with parents. Everyone has been talking about the rise of anxiety and depression and the connections to social media and other things. And I'm excited to talk about attachment with you. But have you noticed that just like in your personal experience? In your clinical experience, have you noticed a predominant theme or concern that is, I'm sure there's a myriad of issues that you are seeing or that are brought to you, but what are, what's the most common concern?

Tania Johnson: 7:53

Yeah. I think something, unfortunately along the way in, within Western psychology, we got lost a little bit and we started focusing a lot on relieving symptoms for kids. They don't want to go to school. So what is the plan that we put in place that the teacher can follow that the parent can follow? Or they have a tummy ache. What's the plan and totally understandable, right? Even as a parent, it's like my kid won't go to school. What am I supposed to do? We always want to jump to that. What am I supposed to do? That's always the first question. Even though kids come in presenting with different things, what Tammy and I have really tried to do within our book, within our podcast, within our courses, within the people who we connect with is to look deeper for what's happening for our children to go, what's the underlying thing that's happening here? And for me, What I see often now is that children are lacking that, almost that anchor in their life. It's almost as if their worlds are moving too quickly. They're waking up and it's wake up, TV, rush to the bus, school day, daycare, hockey, homework, bath, fight with mom and dad, look at your phone, fall asleep, repeat repeat. And so I believe that's at the root of a lot of what's happening for the kiddos who we see. They just come in presenting differently, whether it's depression, whether it's anxiety whether it's somatic complaints. But often when I look underneath, it's tied to our children just not feeling anchored.

Timmy Eaton: 9:26

That's interesting. I think that is the right word. Like when you say anchored, one of the most common I guess ideas or philosophies in homeschooling, unschooling, that kind of thing is this idea of free play. Charlotte Mason, who is a British educator and philosopher. She talked about this term masterly inactivity. And I just I feel like just what you just, that, that list of things that you rattled off about a typical day that is difficult for children. And so I love the idea of free play and of masterly inactivity. A lot of people call it boredom. They'll just say, it's just good for kids to have some boredom in their lives so that they can be curious and create. And that was an aside. That was awesome. But take us back to the institute. So then you guys started doing that and what happened?

Tania Johnson: 10:11

Yeah. And then also just rewind a little bit. I think you're so often, if I'm lucky, I will see a kid for one in therapy. I'll see a kid for one hour a week if I'm lucky, but often it's every other week because we're so busy. And here in Canada, it's expensive. It's 220 an hour to see a therapist, which is crazy. We know that it's crazy. One in five kiddos struggle with mental health in Canada, and only about 20 percent of kids will get the help that they need. And early intervention is absolutely critical when it comes to mental health. So we're not doing a great job. We're failing miserably. And when kids come in, like I said, I'm very lucky if I see them for an hour a week. Most kids I'm only going to see twice a month, every other week. Some kids it's every three weeks. I can tell you right now that I can create a safe space where a child might begin to process and I might be able to say these are the themes, but it's not me. It's not me. It's not any therapist who's going to change a child's world. It's mom, it's dad, it's teacher, it's a coach. And so for me, it was just such a beautiful experience to be able to talk to the people who are actually the change makers in a child's world and say, here are the tools. Here's the strategies. Here's the research. You guys are the people who change a child's world. It's not me as the therapist. I like how you use the word

Timmy Eaton: 11:28

village. Like I liked how you use that. Yeah. And that is good. And so many of us are needed there. I was wondering like in your, in, in your experience as you have what can you, I know it's difficult, but, and you did talk about the busy schedule, can you attribute. Like the rise to anything in particular, or is it just a number of factors that you would attribute to the rise in mental health, like you said, one in five and maybe that's even depending on where you live, maybe that's even modest, right?

Tania Johnson: 11:57

Yes, I think it probably is modest. I. I would say largely has to do with a world that never switches off anymore. And which brings us back to social media technology. And then also just our kids, it's like a competitive edge that never goes away. So you need to be in this extracurricular than that extracurricular. And, you mentioned earlier, just the beauty of boredom. I think many of our children don't have that place or that space anymore, where there was so much wonder so many wonderful things happen.

Timmy Eaton: 12:29

Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Tania Johnson: 12:32

Yeah. I think so. Yes. Short answer to that is I attributed to basically the fast pace of life.

Timmy Eaton: 12:38

Yeah. I agree. Like without doing any kind of like really intense study on it, my observations, I have six children myself, and just living your, we observe that as a teacher too. I've taught for 20 years. So why did what you guys did resonate so much with people? What is it? Why is it so successful? Cause when I look at the, what you're doing, you guys first of all, when did it start? Like, when did you start the institute and then how has it grown?

Tania Johnson: 13:00

Yeah, we started looking at it 2016. And then it's just developed from there. So we started off, yeah, we started off all in person. It was just me and Tammy. We just took our presentation to different cities within Canada. Tammy popped over to the States. I went to South Africa. And we just kept presenting and then. Shortly before COVID actually, we'd already started to go online and then COVID hit and then of course we went online fully, but the beautiful thing that happened, there was so many hardships during COVID, but the beautiful thing that did happen is that Instead of it just being Tammy and I, we suddenly started being connected to these incredible people in the field, people I thought that I would never have the honor of being able to speak to. And then suddenly they were presenting for us at our summits, at our conferences, they had courses with us. So we were able to. Connect deeply with people who we thought would never have that chance to actually be able to do that.

Timmy Eaton: 13:59

Yeah. Name a few. Like we talked a little bit beforehand, but I had noticed that you guys had done stuff with Gordon Neufeldt and Gabor Maté,

Tania Johnson: 14:06

if I'm

Timmy Eaton: 14:07

saying that but

Tania Johnson: 14:08

Yes. Huge. We've got Dr. Shapali on there, Kim John Payne, Dr. Laura Markham, really because it's always been such an interest for me, the field of child psychology. There's a few more people I'd love to be on there, but all of the people who I went through my grad school, reading their books, suddenly they were on our platform. And I, yeah, this is one of those beautiful things that you look and you go, how did this happen? How did this happen? No, that's interesting. As

Timmy Eaton: 14:34

I, as I've done this podcast, I have now interviewed several people that I had cited in my work. I had no plan five years ago when I finished my dissertation that I would be talking to some of these individuals. And so it's been very cool to do that. So

Tania Johnson: 14:48

it's amazing when it comes full circle and you just see those pinch me moments where you say that they're here and that they're amazing.

Timmy Eaton: 14:54

And what do you make of it? Like why is that? What is it about what you guys are doing that is resonating with these leaders in the field and just people in general.

Tania Johnson: 15:01

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of it is about giving power. Back to the parents, back to teachers and saying, there is so much that we can do. And it just starts with one small change. It just starts with us saying, tomorrow morning, I'm going to do something a little bit different with my child. So I think that it was all about going, hold on. We don't need to keep these secrets. Close to our chest, these therapy secrets, why it's the parents who need them. So within all of our courses, Tammy and I have really tried to be cognizant that the research is there. So it doesn't sound, sometimes psychology can be a little bit airy fairy so that the actual concrete research is there. And the most up to date research followed by strategies. Because like I said, as parents, we often feel panicky. How do I actually help? But I think when we've got the research, then we know, okay, this is how the strategy works and it might take a little bit longer because we need whatever it's neurologically the child to shift. But I think it was all about giving power back to the parents.

Timmy Eaton: 16:01

As you say, that one thing that came to my mind is I've had several discussions on here with parents, homeschooling parents who have kids that are this term neurodivergence and. Neurodiverse children. Are we in your experience, is it like I don't know how to use the right terminology, or if it's cause and effect or if it's are, is neurodivergence a are we talking about an environmentally like influenced kind of thing that's going on? Or is this a mix of both genetics and how we're born, that kind of thing? Or is there an increase that is very easy? To to tell and to see is happening.

Tania Johnson: 16:35

So when we look at neurodivergency, there's definitely a very strong genetic component, but what we do within our environments, and that's what we're trying to work on, because we can't change genetics, like as a therapist or a course, it doesn't change. The only thing that we have control over is the environment. So yes, there's a strong genetic component. But the environment, what we do with a child's environment is huge environment and relationships. And that's what we are about at the Institute is what needs to shift in the relationships and what needs to shift in the environment.

Timmy Eaton: 17:07

Beautifully said. I love that. And I agree with that. I, one thing that you guys have, I think it's like your mission. I wrote this down cause I loved it. It said. Our, we're trying to raise a generation who don't need to recover from their childhood. And I think that's, I think that's really good. Just so clear. And I think anybody who hears that goes, Oh yeah, I, we, they can feel what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah, go ahead.

Tania Johnson: 17:28

Yeah. For us too. So I'm a mom of two little girls. And I'm still learning and where this course is coming in or even presenters who I go Oh my goodness, that's brilliant. Or this is something that I need to shift or there's a new awareness within myself. And if I can shift and change, it helps my girls to be the fullest potential of themselves. And, along with the Institute, we have We have a, an app, the child psych app. And it's beautiful because it's just this community of people who are just normalizing that we're all going to struggle, that we're all going to mess up as parents, that we're all learning all of the time. And so I think that has been huge too, is that I think there's often so much shame around parenting and what's happening with your child. And did I cause this? And I think that's been huge for us too, is let's just stop all of that. Let's just all be real with one another. This is hard. Okay.

Timmy Eaton: 18:20

This is hard, man. And no one child is the same as another. And so this one size fits all approach just doesn't work because every child and every family is unique. You're talking you talked about the environment of a child. One of the hardest things, like what you just said really resonates with homeschooling parents and especially homeschooling mothers. I think it's about 95 to 97%. Of homeschooling is done principally by the mother. And that's one of the hardest things is to say, man, I've made this decision, I've chosen this option for the education and lifestyle of my child and or as a family, they've made that decision. And so they're, like you said, and there's so many things to learn as a parent. Really, I'm coming to this idea that homeschooling is just parenting or it's just, It's really whatever, option of education and lifestyle one chooses. I don't even know that homeschooling works as far as a term. It's basically just experiencing education and life as a family. But yeah. But this, when you talk about like raising resilient children in that environment, what, what are like, what are some points that you could just give this audience? What would like, I know that's probably, it's something you want to, it takes a lot of explanation and description, but what are some things that you would tell people about raising resilient children?

Tania Johnson: 19:34

So I would say to them that emotional awareness of what's happening within themselves and within others is probably. One of the most critical factors of development. So really working on children, understanding understanding what's happening in their body when they have different feelings, how to name those feelings and most importantly, having a space where they can actually express. Even with my little ones now, sometimes I'll say that they'll say I'm mad at you. And I'll say, okay, where are we feeling it in our body? What does it feel like in your body? Is it tight? Is it loose? What color is it? Or we'll talk about it afterwards that they can't talk with it. Talk to me at the time, because so often feelings are very cognitive. We have to help our children to understand just the holistic nature of feelings. So really helping them to understand feelings in their bodies. Giving them a wide array of feeling words, which is the best way to teach that is what is being role modeled in the home. So often as parents, we use the same five feelings words. How was work? Boring. The same. I'm happy. I'm mad. I'm frustrated. But our own vocabulary is not very wide. And so part of me says those feelings charts on our refrigerators, it's not for our kids, it's for our adults. When our children hear us using a wide vocabulary, they're more likely to use it. Really investing just a rich emotional vocabulary to our children and then helping them to understand what's happening for other people. When you drive through the Tim Hortons or the Starbucks, saying Oh, the lady who just helped us, did you see her eyes were downcast and she looked a little bit tentative, what do you think was happening for her? So helping them to understand what's happening in their world. I try to do that with my girls when we're reading books or watching movies. So really understand. It's a huge part of resiliency. And then a big one is having courage to fail too. So talking about our mistakes, right? To the dinner table and say, Oh, mom was supposed to get this workshop in today. Cause we're making workshops all the time. Mom was supposed to get this workshop in today and I completely. Forgot. And I had to call everybody and say I know you were expecting it today, but I really, I messed up. So talking about where we mess up too, and often we don't, like we go of course, mistakes are fine in my house. Of course, failure is fine. But we never actually talk to kids, like very authentically about mistakes and failure.

Timmy Eaton: 21:57

And I think I've read where you guys said about like normalizing, I think the stigma about mental health and specifically, but just normalizing, like you said and humanizing ourselves for our children, those two principles of environment and relationships, I just feel like are universally applicable, no matter what situation or education forum, somebody finds themselves in what about the idea of attachment? Like when you were just describing you with your daughters so you said two daughters.

Tania Johnson: 22:21

Yeah,

Timmy Eaton: 22:23

and reading with them. And I just, I've read so much about reading aloud and how kids naturally. Cuddle up to their parents or to whoever it is that's reading to them on a regular basis. And there's what is attached? How does attachment come into play here and what is it?

Tania Johnson: 22:38

Yeah. So basically to break it into two different styles, we get our secure attachment, which is the one that we're looking for. And then we get our insecure attachment styles. And that's usually when there's been some sort of rupture between the parents and the child or the caregiver. But what we're looking for is that secure attachment and we mentioned the word anchor earlier, but generally what we see in a secure attachment is that primary caregiver is that child's center there, that anchor. So that child, what we want is for them to gradually go out more and explore their world, but they always come back to their primary caregiver. So when they're little. They go and play in the park and then they fall down and they cry and they come back to the primary caregiver. That's a secure attachment there. When they're older, they go on their first date and they come home and they say, dad, it was a disaster and they come back and they keep coming back throughout their lifetime to that center piece. So that, so it's not that it's A relationship that's perfect. It's not that we do everything the way the book might say these are the way that we need to discipline our kids or it's not that it's perfect parenting. It's aware parenting.

Timmy Eaton: 23:44

Yeah. Cause I'm just imagining if somebody had the philosophy of I don't know what people call it now, but tough love or something like that, where a kid comes back and says, we'll get back out there. I don't know that necessarily, just totally negates every, everything good that could have happened there. Like you said, because the center is still there and that relationship is still there. And so I love that, I, one of the most common books read among homeschool families is hold on to your kids and Dr. Neufeldt and Dr. Matei Absolutely. I think that idea that like what we're watching and I'm seeing this increasing since they wrote it. And since we've been talking about it, but just, I'm still seeing it increase that people, a lot of youth are being raised by their peers in a sense, because there's so much time and parents. In a lot of ways, abdicate their role as parents in, with good intentions to be tight with their kids. And they're in and unfortunately what they're doing is they're not improving their relationship because they're not assuming their role. And that's not to judge how different parenting styles it's that it might be just a matter of time or a matter of exposure any comments on that, the idea of peers that are raising peers instead of parents playing that central role that you're talking about.

Tania Johnson: 24:52

And that's one of my favorite books. It's brilliant stuff. And then, Dr. Gabor Mattei and Dr. Neufeld are just, they're amazing. They're amazing human beings and authors and teachers. I think the problem when peers are raising peers is that it's always conditional and we have people basically at the same developmental level. Level leading one another and what our children need is an unconditional acceptance, love and warmth where somebody is a strong leader for them and that's where the parents come in. But I'm seeing exactly the same thing where unfortunately a lot of our children are losing that connection with their parents. And

Timmy Eaton: 25:33

the parents are, even endorsing that again with good intentions but maybe to, to the detriment of the relationship in many cases.

Tania Johnson: 25:42

Yeah. And I often see that, say that to my teen clients, to their parents, as I say, I see two things happen with my, with teens is that either parents panic and they move in too closely. So they go, are you going to get into the right school? You need to be studying. Or they say. You just want to be with your friends anyway. Or he just wants to be with his friends anyway. He doesn't need me. And they're a step too far back. And really, teens still need us to be their roots. They just need us to hold them in a different way.

Timmy Eaton: 26:08

Well said. That's really good. This is my audience is homeschooling parents. The And I don't think, I think it's very few that are, that demonize other forms of education. I don't really hear that much. I think there are people have real concerns about, but are there any implications on the idea of attachment? Or, just relationship and environment with the conventional school system that you're seeing, like I'm saying from your angle. So it's not just Oh, I chose to homeschool because of the evil school. That's because I don't really hear people saying it like that. It's more like a very deliberate choice to say, I want this attachment. I want this environment for my children. And so they make this choice. To like you said, they go like your kids, especially today with with technology and the different options, especially here in Alberta, which is amazing where kids can choose lots of options of hybrid approaches to education. Kids are not just at home. And that's why homeschooling, the term doesn't really work because it's not really at home. There's world schoolers, there's, road schoolers, it's all. Types of things, unschooling. So I guess what I'm wondering is there, because the conventional system still is archaic in some ways where it's like all the same ages together, all these things, do you see any implications of attachment or environment or relationships? That, that are clearly attached to a conventional style of educating.

Tania Johnson: 27:26

The one thing that I love about what I'm hearing you say here is, and I think I used the word earlier, is that with homeschooling or the choice to homeschool, it's a very intentional choice. And Tammy and I advocate strongly for intentional parenting, wherever that's, however, that may manifest, whether it's more mainstream schooling, whether it's the extra curriculars that you put your kids into, whether it's how you decorate your house. We're big on simplicity for children. But it's all about intentional parenting. So that's what I love about what you're saying about homeschooling. Within our schools though I think it's very important that often our kids are going to school for six hours at a time, seven hours at a time. I think it's very important that parents Don't step back and become complacent. And they go, is the person who's looking after my child throughout the day, a safe person? Are they a secure base? Are they somebody that my child can look up to as a leader? What's happening within the classroom? So I'll give you an example. Prior to being Una and Maya's mom, they're my two little girls. I was a foster mom to four kids from Enoch, which is just outside of Edmonton. They were a sibling group of four. And I remember, so the kids had been through a lot, but I remember walking into one of the little boys, he's grade two classroom and the teacher she had a ladybug theme going on, but there was ladybugs hanging from the roof. There was ladybugs, all of the walls was ladybugs on all the days. So it was just, there was a lot going on. And I remember in that instance, thinking to myself, it's just a matter of time. Before he's in the principal's office, because there's no ways he's going to be able to regulate in the classroom where there's this much stimulation. Yes. And that was completely right within a little bit of, two, three weeks, we were sitting in the principal's office. But I think when you're able to. Choose a different schooling environment for your child. You have so much more choice over what's happening within the environment and the relationship. But if your kiddo is in traditional schooling, you have to remain an advocate. You have to remain really present and really aware of what's happening for your kiddo.

Timmy Eaton: 29:40

Thank you very much. And again, I really like talking about principles because not everybody's situation can lend themselves to even the, the choice of education that they want because of their personal circumstance, perhaps, but it's the principle of what you said, advocacy for your children, intentional parenting. In fact, when you said intentional parenting, I think that is actually the right thing to do. Term for homeschooling. Because it's a principle I just don't, I just don't want to compartmentalize everything that we do. And so that's a principle based term there, intentional parenting and creating environments and relationships where kids can thrive and where they there's safety, but there's a, but there's this ability to experience the world also. And so thank you. That was, I love that term.

Tania Johnson: 30:24

Intentional parenting, and we've got it. Yeah, seriously.

Timmy Eaton: 30:26

If we can just change everything that says homeschooling. Trade

Tania Johnson: 30:29

markets. That's

Timmy Eaton: 30:30

awesome. Oh and again, I just, I'm just reviewing some of the things that I wrote down cause I loved it. Like the idea of empowering parents and caregivers to foster emotional health is what we've been talking about. Let's talk about the parenting handbook. Like this is the book that you and Tammy wrote together, correct?

Tania Johnson: 30:45

Yes, that's correct.

Timmy Eaton: 30:46

Tell us about that and when you started it and then what it's about. And get people excited to get it.

Tania Johnson: 30:52

Yeah. What a process. So I've always heard from other people when they've written a book, we've been lucky enough to interview a few people who've written books. And they'll always say to us, Oh, it's such a process. It's like birthing a child. And I'm always like yes. Until I actually done it myself. And I was like, Whoa this is huge. It's huge. So we wrote it through COVID. We wrote it for three years. We just, every Wednesday morning we would both write. And really our goal was. That there's so much information out there and it can be so incredibly overwhelming that we wanted a handbook, the parenting handbook. We wanted a handbook that basically synthesized all of that information, brought it down into kind of manageable bite sized chunks, and then followed it up with strategies. So that was our whole goal. And it was also about taking, right now on our website, I think we have over 80 different courses related to children's mental health and wellness. And so what we wanted to do was take

Timmy Eaton: 31:42

courses that you guys created.

Tania Johnson: 31:44

So we've done some, and then we have Dr. Book Gabor's course. We've got Dr. Shafali's course. So it's just as people have created.

Timmy Eaton: 31:51

Yeah. And I have seen. Not all that

Tania Johnson: 31:52

story. Like, how'd you guys do that? I was going to say, how did you

Timmy Eaton: 31:54

do that? And write a book and start a company.

Tania Johnson: 31:57

But what we want to do is that even throughout all of the courses, there's very small. And so we looked at what those themes were. So it's understanding a child's neurology and how that impacts their behavior and their ability to understand their world. So there's that. There's emotional wellness. There is how do you foster resiliency? How do you discipline in a connected way? How do you help children to really foster values? There were a number of different things that we looked at and said, these are, these themes of presence everywhere, technology, play. And then what we did is we just broke the book up into different chapters and wrote on each one of the big topics that we see present throughout all of our courses. And after three years, a baby was there and it's coming out March 7th. We're so incredibly excited.

Timmy Eaton: 32:47

Wow. Wow. So this is really coming up.

Tania Johnson: 32:50

Yeah it's, you can already pre you can pre order it and it's starting to fly a little bit because of obviously people within our community are waiting for it, but we're, yeah, we're excited. It's just beautiful to go like that. There you go. There's there it is. In one.

Timmy Eaton: 33:03

And that's part of the, like, when you go onto your website, it talks about how do you guys basically gather so much of this information that is inaccessible to, to a lot of us who don't study psychology and in these topics. And you guys really synthesize that material and make it accessible for everyone. for us common folk and be able to, I'm just saying with the people that don't study that, we're not always familiar. And so I really appreciate those efforts because it's helpful. And parenting is, like you said, it's hard and let's not pretend like it's not.

Tania Johnson: 33:32

Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it too, being a mom in 5 and 7 now. There's so much conflicting information out there. Should, for example, should you do timeouts? Should you not this is what, one mom's group saying, this is what another mom's group is saying. And we basically wants to cut through all of that and say, okay, this is what the research is actually showing. And then here is what you do. This is your next step. This is your strategy. So each chapter actually finishes off with a little toolbox that says, okay, if you need a quick go to, this is what you do. Here's your toolbox of what you do in this situation.

Timmy Eaton: 34:03

Excellent. One of the, one of the most common sentiments that's expressed in these episodes and the people that I talk to from homeschooling, a lot of my guests and people listening are newer to the homeschool world. And one of the best advice that comes from people is to connect with a seasoned homeschool mom. And because it's not just. The meta research or the research that is done, professionally, but it is the experiential research, at least in the homeschooling world, that is so valuable. Have you ever read the book Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute? It's a beautiful book and it talks about this idea of, it's not necessarily the action that you carry out, whether it comes to discipline or something else, but it is, it's your center. It's what are you experiencing? So it's not necessarily the question of, do you spank a child or do you not? But it's where, that might be a, that might be a, yeah. philosophical thing for a lot of people but the idea is more about like, where are you coming from? Are you coming from a place of control? Are you coming from a place of actual discipline or is it just punishment? And you're not in control of your feelings as a parent. And so it talks, and it's really well written. It's, I would recommend

Tania Johnson: 35:11

it. That's beautiful.

Timmy Eaton: 35:13

Yeah. So that's it. That's, it's cool. And so I would just maybe think of that when you were saying, when you're making these choices that they're, that, consider I like you saying, like it's research and science based, and then there's this experiential component where, you know, a lot of times I find that when I have a question about home education or with our children, I go to a parent who has gone through it and they've gone through all the difficulties that it that it entails. And they just have so much wisdom and that wisdom comes from somebody who has been intentional and has made mistakes, but cares about their kid and wants the best for them. And and I, and it just sounds like that's what we're going to get in your book. And so I'm excited. So thank

Tania Johnson: 35:49

you. Tamino. So, So interesting as you talk about that more wiser home parents, senior person that you connect with. Ultimately, I believe that's what our children want from us too, is a space to come and be authentic and vulnerable, but a space to be heard without us talking too much, and then for us to guide them. And I, I think that's our hope with this book too, is that we give parents and we equip and empower parents with tools, so that when their kiddos come to them, there's a space that's safe, that's open, that's authentic. And then they know how to move forward with a child.

Timmy Eaton: 36:23

Excellent. Excellent. I have two more questions. Are you good with that?

Tania Johnson: 36:27

Yes. Go for it. Yes. One,

Timmy Eaton: 36:28

one that just the thought that just keeps coming to my head is there's two. So the one question is, I'm thinking of your your spouse and you when you're approaching these, and this is a really important topic, I think for anything to do with our children is Is you have two different people that are carrying out things. And if they're not philosophically on the same level, or, I imagine your husband could get frustrated being like, man, you know, everything about kids and I'm just trying to be a dad here. And you're like, I'm not allowed to say these words and I'm not allowed, like I can just imagine how do you reconcile that? How do you, maybe the better word is navigate. How do you and your spouse navigate that, Discussions around how you're going to parent and, what are you going to do for their wellbeing and what space and do you give each other? Because you're imperfect trying to do this together. And I think that's why we, that's probably why we get married and have kids is because it's so refining.

Tania Johnson: 37:19

Totally. We can have two imperfect human beings put together. Hopefully we can move forward a little bit.

Timmy Eaton: 37:23

And love their children completely, but still have their human side where they're not going to carry it out perfectly.

Tania Johnson: 37:29

Yeah. Yeah. And, I think the big thing is. To recognize that we're coming from different places with different childhoods with our own triggers. And there's, there'll be more wonderful to trigger us in our own children often to go Whoa, that's stuff that I haven't sorted out yet. Or I'm responding to my child in the same way that my parents maybe responded to me, even though that's what I don't, what I was hoping not to do. My hope is that for a lot of couples, that there's a space where perhaps we witness interactions with our kiddos and then we're able to talk to them later and say Hey, I noticed that this happened or next time that happens, could we perhaps consider whatever it might be? I'll Honestly think that parenting is one of the most important jobs that we will ever do. And if we have access to whoever it might be, a therapist, somebody at a church or an elder, somebody who can lead us, who can go okay, what are your thoughts on how we want to handle this? What are your thoughts? How do we bring those together? I think being able to sit with somebody who is outside of the parenting diet is. Massively impactful. I realized that not everybody can do that, but I think that if you have the opportunity to sit with somebody who can observe, who can listen to both of you and offer a different perspective, that's really powerful.

Timmy Eaton: 38:49

And I think a lot of times that can be in the form of like therapy, psychologist, that kind of thing, but can't, can it also be a good friend? Can it be Can it be a family member? And because I think that's a, that principle is good. And what, so what would you counsel new parents like, like that are approaching these questions and want to be deliberate? What would you, what would counsel, would you give them when it comes to having these real these realities in mind of neurodivergence and trauma in childhood, maybe from their own childhood or whatever. And then the mental health, the rise in mental health problems that we're seeing in the world today. You've got a young couple or whatever, just at any stage. And they're approaching new parenthood new parenting. What would you counsel them? And I know that's like wide open, so that's hard, but what would you tell them?

Tania Johnson: 39:33

In a household where there are two parents and I think what I'm about to say, some people might debate, but the most important relationship in that household is between the two parents. I always say we look after the parents first, because when we look after the parents and we look after the parental relationship, then the children are more likely to thrive. And so often what I see is that the focus is entirely on the children and not on the parents. Amen. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton: 40:02

No, let's keep going. I just, amen to what you said. I won't debate that. I'm saying I agree with you a hundred percent on that.

Tania Johnson: 40:09

So my focus is instead of a kid focused world, we need to first focus on the adults and go, what do we each need in terms of our own wellness? How do we look after that wellness? And in a real way, I think so often we show, we throw out like, Oh, you need to look after yourself to a new mom. And she's ah, how do I even how and then you feel even more guilty because you're not. But I think we really need to look at Thanks. Truly what does wellness mean for you and how do, are there people that we can connect with that can help even with giving you a little bit of space? We focus on the relationship between the two parents and then kids next. And I, it doesn't even have to be our book, but if you need to start some way to go okay, what is our parenting philosophy actually? Pick a book, find a book and start to read that book. Each of you read a chapter, come back together and go, okay, what are we going to do when, we've got a new baby, but what are we going to do when that kid turns around and they're super sassy for the first time? What is our response going to be? So again, intentional parenting. Yeah, I think that starting off with the tools and being able to discuss those tools before we actually hit those problems, and it's going to look different when we actually execute. But I think having those conversations early on is so incredibly powerful for new parents.

Timmy Eaton: 41:18

I really appreciate that response, Tanya. And again, I'm, and I, everything I've read has focused on the importance of the that parental relationship. And I think that's really good or for homeschooling parents to hear because Especially when a, typically a mother has given herself and sacrifice so much for her children, her identity becomes so wrapped up in that. And so her individuality sometimes is difficult to identify. And that there's a role there. And I think like you're saying when the. Partners are working together and the kids are observing that's so healthy for them. And like you said, you don't have to hide things. There are things that are appropriate, not appropriate, but I'm saying you don't have to hide that you're you're discussing things with your spouse. I think that's healthy for them to see that. And maybe not to To argue, contentiously, but to see them debating and talking. And I think that's healthy for kids and that's literally how they get their cues and how they, their worldview kind of forms. And so I, I love that response. I really do. The last thing I wanted to ask you, if I could, and then tell us definitely where we can connect with you and Tammy and the work that you're doing is I just wanted to hear from your own experience. What, how did you get into this? What why do you do what you do? And what is it, do you draw any connection to your own experience growing up? What is it that got you to be interested in children's psychology and just family relationships and environment.

Tania Johnson: 42:40

We won't analyze this one, but my mother's actually a therapist too. And my father studied social work and my grandfather was a priest. So I come from a line of helpers, basically. So I think it was just naturally in, it was encoded. The DNA was encoded. But as far as where I am right now in my life. So I'd mentioned earlier that I was a foster mom. And. My experience of being with the kiddos is that we were needing to access lots of different supports and we would go to appointments, but it often felt like we were going one step forward and four steps backward and no one was really helping us and the puzzle pieces weren't quite fitting together. And we were supposed to be so grateful for all of these services, but a lot of time I felt like nobody actually cared. Nobody truly cared about what was happening for these children, for these beautiful little children. And I could feel my own frustration growing. And I think that's led to where I am now is I know that we can do better. And I hope that ICP or the Institute is a stepping stone towards doing better.

Timmy Eaton: 43:43

Thank you. And thank you for caring. And and I feel that about you, your genuineness. And so I appreciate you taking time with us today. Thank you very much. Tell us where we can connect with you and best places to find your guys work and the parenting handbook and so on.

Tania Johnson: 43:57

Beautiful. So for those of you who are interested in Buying the parenting handbook. You can get it now on pre order. You can get it off Amazon. If you take your Amazon receipt and you go to my parenting handbook. com and put in the receipt number, you also had get access to one of our courses, compassionate discipline, which is a six and a half hour course. It's fantastic. Basically how to raise and discipline children, how to guide children through challenging moments. So yeah, that was My parenting handbook. com.

Timmy Eaton: 44:25

Okay. Gotcha. So it's not the parenting handbook.com. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Yeah, that's good. Yes. My parenting handbook

Tania Johnson: 44:31

do com. You can go to the Institute of Child Psychology. That's just the website if you wanna have a look at all the courses that we offer. And if you would prefer to do on your phone, you can also just download the child psych app.

Timmy Eaton: 44:43

Excellent. And we'll put that stuff in the show notes as well so people can access that. Thank you again for being with us. I really enjoyed this discussion with you. Thanks.

Tania Johnson: 44:50

Oh, it's such a pleasure. Thank you, Tim.

Timmy Eaton: 44:52

Have a wonderful evening, Tanya.

Tania Johnson: 44:53

You too.

Timmy Eaton: 44:56

That wraps up another edition of This Golden Hour podcast. If you haven't done so already, I would totally appreciate it if you would take a minute and give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it. And thank you for listening and for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.