Being Completely Gay AND Completely Spiritual with David Monticalvo

David Monticalvo began to celebrate his gayness in his mid-30s, after experiencing an unplanned period of transition. During this process of beautiful challenge, David discovered the teachings of New Thought, which empowered him to view his journey as divine and perfect. Currently he leads the Gay Men’s Spirituality Group based out of Unity Church San Francisco. He earned a master’s degree in public health from the University of Florida and has a bachelor’s in social work. As a teacher on gay men’s wellness, he has spoken on rejection, creativity, and substance use disorders. His first book will be finished this year.

This interview starts with David sharing (perhaps the most!) well thought out drag avatar that embodies who he is at this moment. We then talk about his experience coming out later in life and the energy that has resulted as he embraces being totally gay and totally spiritual- a combination he used to not believe was possible. In fact, originally for David, choosing Christianity was his attempt to hide his queerness. This eventually lead to his experience of Miso theism (which is hating, or resenting God). And what a journey has taken to come to loving God and loving his queerness.

I speak about my journey to being unabashedly spiritual and my growth edge with prayer, admitting that sometimes I feel a bit in being shy about praying. And this leads to us chatting about how following our intuitive hits enables our true gifts to be revealed.

Next, we chat about Spiritual hobbies- distinct from spiritual practices. And we talk about connecting with spirit through creativity (and connecting with creativity through spirit). We also touch on how Play is a magic sauce to create heart centered connectivity.

We end envisioning a world where gay folks embrace their true spiritual selves, and they heal world.

David on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidmonticalvo/ 

Wil's Personal Retreats: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/events

Transcript

Wil Fisher  0:01  
Queerly Beloved, we are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually clear and clearly spiritual. I'm wil Fisher, and I'm a lightworker retreat, making Maven, a coach and a drag queen. And I'll be chatting with the most amazing healers, visionaries, wizards and witches who I can't wait for you to get to know and to learn from their epic stories and powerful practices. All right, let's get super wound together into spiritual a queer a cosmic container and blast off. Hello Beloved's. Today I interviewed David monte-carlo, who began to celebrate his gain is in his mid 30s. And during this time discovered the teachings of New Thought, which empowered him to view his journey as divine and perfect. Currently, he leads the gay men spirituality group based out of Unity Church in San Francisco, where he serves on staff. As a teacher on gay men's wellness. He has spoken on rejection, creativity, and substance use disorders, and his first book will be finished this year. So in this interview, I really can't wait for you to hear David's very well thought out drag avatar, it's pretty epic. We talk about his experience coming out later in life and this energy he has embracing being totally gay and totally spiritual, a combination he used to not believe was possible. In fact, originally for David choosing Christianity was his attempt to hide his queerness which eventually led to his experience of miso theism, which is hating or resenting God, and what a journey he has taken to come to loving God and loving his queerness I speak a little bit about my journey to being unabashedly spiritual, in the context of sometimes still being shy about praying. And this leads to us chatting about how following our intuitive hits enables our true gifts to be revealed. Next, we chat about spiritual hobbies distinct from spiritual practices. We chat about connecting with spirit through creativity, and vice versa, connecting with creativity through spirit. We talked about how play is the magic sauce to creating heart centered connectivity. And we end envisioning a world where gay folks have embraced their true spiritual selves and gifts, and to heal the world. I can't wait for you to get into this one. Enjoy. Alright, David, so good to have you. Welcome to clearly Beloved.

David  2:26  
Thank you. I'm so excited. Yay. Yeah,

Wil Fisher  2:29  
we've been chatting on Instagram and then communicating leading up to this moment. I'm just really happy to be sharing this space with you and to be in the moment now.

David  2:40  
I'm ready to answer your next question.

Wil Fisher  2:44  
I was so excited to ask you. So tell me who you are in this moment, but share by describing the perfect drag avatar that embodies that.

David  2:53  
Okay, so my drag avatar is named Rebecca revelation REVELAY A T Iowan? Yes, when I walk into the work room, I'm going to say revelation, because after I'm done with you, you're going to be screaming Oh god. Ah, Rebecca revelation is a mixture of Mariah Carey Dua Lipa, and Pope Francis. So she is pointing people, she's fierce. And she's also pointing people to, she wears high drag. And so she just embodies that feminine that campiness that fierceness so it's, she embodies everything, everything is sexual there, there's divine and in celebrating the masculine and the feminine and just being really fierce and sassy, but also being able to take some time to meditate and lead maps and have a basilica where people are bowing down and enjoying and having a good time.

Wil Fisher  4:01  
There's I love her. Tell me her name again.

David  4:04  
Rebecca revelation,

Wil Fisher  4:05  
and what do you imagine she looks like? What's her aesthetic?

David  4:08  
Yes, so she's got that so imagine a pope, but instead of a warm fluffy robe, she's got a tight little corset on you can see her titties you can snatched up to the gods like, and she's fierce. She's wearing a miter, which is that pointy hat. And she's just a sec. She's got some winged eyeliner, longer lashes, beautiful lips. She's got a beauty mark right here. Of course she's wearing a ring, and she has to have a scepter but it's like a butterfly scepter flies symbolizes metamorphosis and change. And so she is all about that she's a goddess, but she's also a creator and she's fierce and she also can sing so

Wil Fisher  4:55  
yeah, yes, God.

David  4:59  
Go and watch I that is so important to me is because you know, I'm in this phase, I work full time for a church at a Unity Church, and I'm embracing all sides of me. And so I can still be I can be completely gay and completely spiritual. And those are two things that my entire life I came out later on in life. And those are all things that I just kind of thought had to be separated. And Rebecca information says that it can be all of those things.

Wil Fisher  5:29  
Yes, embracing all that is we talked about that a lot on the show, because to me, that is one of the commonalities of spirituality as a concept, and queerness. Right, both of these to me are calling us into embracing all that is and queer spirituality. You know, when we bring those two words together, to me, that is the alchemy of that is so powerful invitation of calling in all that is all that we are is welcome all that we are as invited in, and I see her as sort of a champion for that. So thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious, have you seen the new drag? We were chatting about drag race right before we hit record? And so I know that you're a fan of the US version. But have you seen any of the the international ones?

David  6:18  
Yeah, like UK down and yeah, you know, the versus the world versus the universe versus

Wil Fisher  6:25  
the cast of the Mexican one came out, it's a new, they haven't done that yet. And one of the girls her opening her promo look is like the Pope. She's in like, yeah, you got to check it out. She's not she's not as sexy. As you mentioned. She's more like, clown Pope, almost very, like plugged like club kid Pope. But It's fierce. And I imagine that yeah, there could be some, some connection there. Yeah, check her out. Great, thank you. And I love that that was so well prepared, and that you've been excited to share that with me. My drag persona today, I'm very much in my warrior energy today. I've been like, since like 6am. I've been like in action mode. I've been very assertive and directed and just moving ship forward. And it's been great. You know, I was in Hawaii last week. And then I started this week, sort of with a lot of spaciousness. And then this day, I've been like, okay, when am I going to be an actually I've been sort of now wanting to push it. And today I just woke up with this fire in me and I've just been going and so my drag persona bodies that I'm seeing like a lot of black and red and orange. So like, black bass with like these fiery accents. So like definitely looks like gorgeous red fiery hair. That's big and beautiful. And his eyes that match that and you know, this like kind of cropped top that's all like, ripped up and burnt maybe and she's got this like hot leather miniskirt, these thigh high boots, and she's just like, ready to slay and you know, and she's slaying for good. She's slaying with love. But it is fierce. It's a fierce energy that's moving her forward and a good way.

David  8:15  
I love that. Don't fuck with me or do right. Yeah, that's

Wil Fisher  8:20  
right. Yes, that's right. I'm here for it. Whether you fuck with me or not? Yes. Great. So yeah, tell me a little bit about your relationship with drag because it did strike me as you were excited to share this. You also mentioned that you know, earlier today, you've been watching some drag race. So I'm feeling this real, you know, affinity towards it. I'm curious what your relationship is with drag.

David  8:44  
Oh my gosh. So my relationship to it is I've lived most of my life afraid of it. And just like like appalled by it almost. And so I am. I came out later in life at Clint came out in my early 30s. And so up to that point, I kind of hidden these like parts of me that were feminine that wanted to be Ariel, The Little Mermaid at three years old. I ran away from that. And so now that I'm out, I'm kind of in a, a, like a kid in a candy store or a sandbox or a toy box, whatever you want to call it. Just a bunch of freedom and joy and trying to understand trying to embrace all the things that I ran away from and so I've never done drag but I am so wanting to I just have not yet. My partner has introduced me to drag race and have loved it just because the people are able to just embrace their, their race all the sides of them, but they're also creative about it. And one of these times like I challenged myself to like thank you Like, how would I How would I do that? Look, if it were me, I incorporate elements that are just outside of my edge, but also still embody who I am. And so I think that's what tracks speaks to, for me, and, and so I, you know, the first time I have put on heels, the first time I put on heels, it was like, kind of awkward, and obviously for like structural reasons. But then part of it was that I, it was awkward because I was ashamed, like, I'm like, Here I am, you know, sis, male, like, and I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be walking like this. But then the next time that I put them on, I owned that shit, and who's like, became me, and I started walking with the strut and I started embodying that and it was it was like a fulfillment of another side of me. And so what I love about being a a gay man, a queer man is that I'm able to embrace my feminine and my masculine. And so you know, I love being able to go to the gym and lift heavy weights. But then I also love getting to listen to Britney Spears Greatest Hits, while I'm doing so. Racing those sides of me that I thought weren't typical, but they're actually brought together.

Wil Fisher  11:19  
Love it, love it. And, you know, to mention that all folks have that capacity, all folks can be invited into that, it just so happens that as queer people, there's a different assumed permission slip for us to be able to embrace all of who we are to embrace our divine feminine embrace our divine masculine. And in many ways, when we do that, we are modeling it for our hetero counterparts, right, we get to be champions for this opportunity. And so and I love you as someone who came out later in life, to sort of be in the presence of your energy of embracing that that permission slip, right? I feel like many gay people, it's a slower build. And, you know, there's something about your energy that's like, I'm queer, and it's so exciting. And I get to do all this stuff, you know, and I just want to celebrate your celebration of your queer spirit.

David  12:13  
Yeah, thank you, I really appreciate that. You, you say that, it's, like, for me, it's not like it's been a slow, like, you know, I, it was just something that I think being in a space that is supportive environment. And I live in San Francisco, and I'm well aware of the privilege of getting to be like that. And that's not something then most queer people get to, you know, experience. But because I'm in a supportive environment, I've placed myself in these situations where I feel comfortable and safe. And I've. And so I've been able to thrive because of that great, cost a lot to get here soon. So it's a privilege that I've earned to it like, you know,

Wil Fisher  13:00  
yeah, for sure. And actually, yeah, I'd love to get into more of the details of your story. Before I do. I just had one other comment, which is to say that, perhaps in you describing that perfect dragon avatar, perhaps even though is in our imagination, but we might consider that your first time up in drag, you know, in this in this imaginary world that we're playing and, and to recognize that, well, first of all, I'm really excited for you to do it IRL. I'm really, I, like wish that I could be in that space and support you through that process, because it's literally one of my favorite things in the world is to help queer, gay and then get up and drag for the first time. And the reason it's so exciting for me is exactly what you were pointing to, in your experience with your heels. Is that empowerment, right? Me and one of my colleagues, Scott Harris, we present a workshop called heal yourself. H e l yourself. And that workshop is geared towards supporting men to be up and drag for the first time. And as we do we talk about some of the wounds that have prevented us from fully embracing our divine feminine. And so drag has this capacity to help us heal those old wounds help us heal this idea that we need to play small and allow us to embrace our extra nests, our bigness, our divine, feminine, all of who we are. So we can walk through the world with more of our power. I feel you wanting more of that and already started to be in it. Yeah, yeah. for that. Have beautiful so yeah, please share a little more about you know, you've mentioned a couple of times that you came out later in life. You don't look, you said you're how old are you? Do you mind

David  14:46  
36 At the end of this month, pride, pride Monday.

Wil Fisher  14:50  
Okay, fabulous. So when so you came out when and how did it transpire?

David  14:54  
Yeah, so I came out to myself about to three or four years ago, and it was, I was married to a woman and I was in a state in a place that was very much just dead to myself and emotional mental state. And so I was heavily involved in the charismatic Christian movement, and was not raised in a particular religious home. I chose it for myself. But then in hindsight, I looked, I realized, I chose I remember a specific thought that I said, if I were Christian, I wouldn't have to be gay. Yeah, so I dove headfirst into Christianity to various forms of it from Pentecostalism, to Catholicism to Southern Baptist like, and I was just searching and looking. And I know, in hindsight, that's because I have that shaman, magician archetype inside of me, as a queer man, then but, but at the time, I thought, like, religion meant that I did not have to be gay, because I didn't want to be gay. And for some reason, the message that I got was that gay will bad. So, so fast forward back to when I came out. This, the ending of that marriage was ended, for a variety of reasons, but it was kind of the icing on the cake for a lot of loss that I had experienced in the preceding three years. And so in many, many, many ways, it was rock bottom for me. And so I realized, after the marriage ended, after the death of my father, and all that I realized, fuck God. And so I was like, I am going to do what I want to do. And this is to step into being with men, because I've never done that. And that was like, the deepest thing, the darkest thing that I could have thought to do. And it was a long ish process, trying to come to terms with myself, and it wasn't exactly the first time I had sex with the guy was not like the most amazing thing. So I was like, where does that leave me, I felt like, men, I guess didn't do it. For me. Women weren't doing that leave me. And so I knew that I wasn't a sexual, but I felt like just in some kind of limbo land. And I eventually, you know, found a partner that, you know, showed me, you know, that I wasn't even gay. And so that was, that was great for me. But during that process, it wasn't just the sexual process. It was the accepting the full sides of myself. And so I little by little reveal parts of me to other people, and I found safe people, and they accepted me and, and so ended up just finally finding the community that I'm in now the, the Unity Church, that I'm a part of that embrace all sides of me. And so it was quite a beautiful revelation to be able to do that. So yeah, that's a lot of my stuff.

Wil Fisher  18:09  
Thank you for sharing all that. So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting path of going to God in order to hide from the sexuality, and then saying, fuck God, I'm going to be queer. And now merging those two. And so I'm curious how spirituality played a role in this transition for you.

David  18:30  
Yeah. So after the split gods. Yeah, me. It's called me so theism. By the way, there's a term for I just recently discovered that term. Whoa, whoa, tell me more about that. It's bitterness, distrust hatred towards God, as opposed to atheism, which basically just says, God doesn't exist. I don't believe God exists. Wow, in my s, O T, H, E, I. Wow. And so the MISA theism that I experienced, I wanted to quit God. But I just still felt myself like drawn to an element of spirituality of some kind. So I, even though I ripped up the pages of my Bible and threw it away. The next couple of weeks later, I picked up a book called Science of mind by ernest holmes, and which is a new thought kind of teaching about the ability of the mind to heal itself. And this came across a number of authors across the Kabbalah and hermetic principles and the work of Louise Hay, etc. And realized, even though I wanted to click out I couldn't quit the things of spirituality because my heart just aligned to it by default. I tried to turn it off, but I couldn't. And, and so, over time, I kind of came to the conclusion through the teachings that I was studying that I am part of the Divine, that my gayness can be integrated with my spiritual Reality and in fact, for me, David, I am a spiritual being and and if I divorced myself for spirituality, I wouldn't be David because that's just my DNA. And so yeah, it was. And once I realized that once I was able to marry those two together my gayness and my spirituality, I almost just my heart expanded, and I just feel an element of love and, and so there are a number of ways in which I was able to kind of heal my heart through that.

Wil Fisher  20:32  
Beautiful. Wow, yeah, thanks for sharing all that. It brings up for me, this coming out process that many spiritual gay men have to go through where we come out as gay. And we reject spirituality because we feel like those two things don't fit. And then when if and when we discover spirituality again, sometimes we have to come out as spiritual and to end to the judgment of many good GBT Q people who reject spirituality, because they equate it with religion, and they equate it with the oppression that is been, you know, that has been imposed upon our community for millennia. And I've just present to it. to circle back to our that what we started to chat about before I hit record, which was we actually did a short prayer before we jumped into this conversation. And David thanked me for it and acknowledged how it impacted him and helped him to open his heart. And I shared with him is the first time I'd actually done that with a guest starting a podcast. And I'll share that Yeah, I did feel comfortable doing it with you, for whatever reason, and my intuition said, do it and then I just listened to my intuition. But it just it does make me question, you know, how many times have I actually felt that impulse? How that intuitive hit to pray before something and denied it because of that, that remaining fear of judgment? You know, prayer is such a big, big part of my life, and I still find myself hiding it. You know, when I'm praying before a meal, I'm sort of like, like, hiding my little hands or like just closing my eyes. And even this last trip with my mom and my niece and kawaii she would notice me praying before my meal, my mom would, and she'd be like, Oh, wait, what's, what's the prayer? Like, so cute, but just she would bring it to the table, and then I would feel okay, like, I'm gonna pray for the three of us. We're gonna pray together. You know, and it was, but it was still uncomfortable for me. And I feel like I'm still in my coming out process. Even though I have this podcast, which is particularly it was specifically about queerness and spirituality. It's, I'm still in the process of being unabashedly spiritual. And I just feel moved to share that.

David  23:00  
Wow, that's, that's so beautiful. You know, I think that what when you said that it immediately translated to me in the times that I've tried to hide myself. And so for you, it meant coming out spiritually and hiding, you know, just praying for Neil, but for me, that's also meant that I've tried hiding my my gayness in some way, you know, we, one of the things that I'm really into, is the concept of gay archetypes, gay patterns of behavior. And so these are things like being a purveyor of beauty. So you think of who are you know, stereotypically hairstylist or floral designers. And, you know, queer people can be consciousness scouts, where they are a little bit radical from society, but over time, society comes up to their level. And, and then by that time, it's time for the consciousness scouts to go even further. And so the concept for me, I've always been someone as I mentioned, the magician, Shaman priest kind of archetype. And so when I tried to hide things, who I truly fully am, it's awkward. And so kind of like what you said, you were trying to hide your rareness It was awkward, right? You're being you were being you know, your sister mom can can tell about that. Like, and so that just reminds me that I need to live my full self at all times. Otherwise, it's awkward and you people just feel that that's one of the things I hear on drag race a lot and the critiques is you're you're hiding yourself. That's not truly you. You're not having fun with it. It's my myself to open fully at all times.

Wil Fisher  24:52  
Yeah. 1,000%. And I think there is a process right to get there to get to the point of self awareness, where you even Have that intuitive hit or that impulse to express yourself in a certain way, right? So it's like, we have to start with getting to know ourselves and allowing those true impulses to hit us. And then it's about finding the courage to, to act upon it to express what is trying to move through us. Right. And it's in the acting upon it, that the alchemy happens, it's in the out the act that the awkwardness slowly starts to fade away, and we start to own our shit, right? We owe or I'll say, on our greatness, on our beauty on all of who we are.

David  25:41  
Yeah, I think that's just it's so wonderful to be able to step into that full expression. And I have so the key point that I'm thinking about right now is, when you were being your fullest self, by praying with me, for me, it inspired me, I benefited from that, because my heart opened up, and you were kind of on the same like, vibe. And so it's just such a reminder to me that I need to follow my intuitive hits, I need to follow these things, not just for my own benefit, but for the benefit of other people.

Wil Fisher  26:16  
Yes, that's when our gifts come out. And we are here to give our gifts and so yeah, absolutely.

David  26:24  
That point. Well, if I can say so yeah, please is, you know, I'm doing a lot of writing right now about we're spiritual spirituality. And the kind of the thesis of what I'm writing about is, when queer folks embrace their true spirituality, their spiritual gifts, their spiritual functions as Christian to work to says, their true functions, they can heal themselves, but they can also heal the world. And that's what the world needs. The world needs people right now who are able to produce beauty in the world. They need people who are activists, they need people who are the caretakers, and the, you know, all of these things we need we need to show up in the world and be unashamedly spiritual, unashamedly themselves.

Wil Fisher  27:13  
Beautiful. And so I know you hold space for a gay men's spirituality group. And I'm curious what comes up in that group? And how are you able to support the men who come to that group to move into that direction that and to be part of that movement that you're describing right now, which is fully embracing who we are in the spiritual gifts that we have to offer?

David  27:38  
Yeah, so two ways, I think, is the ways in which I really try to, like hammer home with all of this, like my goal is, the first is that it was birthed coming out of the pandemic, and people were wanting genuine connection. San Francisco does not have a shortage of gay men. And so what that means is that there are a lot of gay men have a lot of interactions with each other. But there's always other people that they can go to next. And so there's not an element of true genuine deep connection. So the group aims to create a safe space for people to connect on a deeper level connect with other spiritual folks. And so we also have, the way that we meet is that we, we meet at the Unity Center, but then we also have social gatherings. And then we've also had an online Zoom Room and just the point for people to come together. And the so that's connection. But then the other aim goal way in which we we do this is through emphasizing a strengths based perspective. I try not to talk there's always just so much pathology associated with with gayness. And as much as I love the velvet rage, I feel like there's just so much talking about the pathology, and I don't want to talk about that, because we all know it. And it's wonderful to articulate and I'm inspired by it already. But it's, but I want to talk about the strengths. I want to talk about the spiritual functions. And so I tried to talk about things from that perspective. So that way, I want the game and who leave the group saying, Oh, I'm proud to be gay. I wouldn't be gay. I would if I had a choice to change my gayness I wouldn't. I want them to come out of the group saying that. So I think those two ways are which, you know, they can come in power and healing themselves and then of course, the world.

Wil Fisher  29:38  
Beautiful. And what if anything, do you see gets in the way of that? What are these men bringing to the group that that needs healing so

David  29:49  
so I would say there's still an element of guardedness. It's an open group and so that means people come and go Oh, and, you know, people are new all the time. So I think consistency is just as important. So I think in any given way, and as someone who's I'm recently new to San Francisco, coming out and everything, and so just continuing to be consistent in any way, and even if, you know, five people show up to a Zoom meeting, we're still gonna have them. You know, and so I find just, the consistency is so important in the gay world, because there's, we're always struggling with different things competing for our attention. But the day we have to return to our center. Yes. And so yeah,

Wil Fisher  30:42  
that's beautiful work that you're doing. So thank you for that service. Thank you. Yeah. And so you mentioned your book, and you mentioned that you're delving into some of the queer archetypes. I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what's percolating for you in this book. And also, you know, I always think it's fun to hear about the process to like, what how did you decide to write this book? And how has it been going being in this process?

David  31:09  
Okay. I will answer that question. First. How I got to writing about this book started. Three years ago, before I even decided to come out and be gay, I started writing a book about rejection. And, and rejection was something that I had experienced a lot in that time of my life. But as I wrote it, it was still very much I was holding back, I was holding back. Really, I was rejecting myself my true self. I was writing in the book, as I remember writing like, Oh, am I going to talk about my gayness? Now, I'm not going to talk about it. And, and then so So last year, I kind of finished the book, and I tried to make it a, an online course. And it just, it didn't quite feel right. And I was incredibly disappointed in myself. And, and so one day, I was writing in my journal, and I practice automatic writing, which for those of you who don't know, it's just about really just letting yourself kind of just flow stream of consciousness, letting your, you know, hearing listening to your intuition, and writing whatever word it comes up. So I was doing this automatic writing. And the structure of my rejection book, the book I had been working on, I kind of had this vision that it was transforming it into a topic group for gay men. So I was able to kind of turn some of the topics into gay spirituality, and it kind of morphed and whatever. And so that was, that was about six or seven months ago. And so every morning, I've gotten up, I work full time. And so I've gotten up at 5am. And have written and have been grateful to get some writing coaching and, and have really just plugged in work in that. And so I was looking at some of my old material where I was holding back and in and hoping to repurpose that writing. And I looked at it, and it's just so not me now. And so I can almost repurpose none of it. It's like, it's hard to, but I'm trying to look at the writing process as a, as a spiritual Prince, like a spiritual hobby of mine. Because it's an outflow of my spirit. It's one of my sacred contracts, I have to write this book, I have to talk about these topics, because that's just who I am.

Wil Fisher  33:32  
Yes, yeah. Before you move on to some of the topics. Yeah, it's an interesting moment of seeing this old version of yourself through the writing, it's almost like this is the way that you've been able to mark eight, your evolution. And when you look back, you're like, oh, wait, that's not that's not my wisdom. That's not my wisdom to share anymore. And I imagine it's, it's evolved past that. And that what's cut channeling through you is, is a, maybe a higher level wisdom that wants to be heard and read.

David  34:03  
Exactly. And so it's beautiful to see that and it's also I have to surrender to this process. And who knows, maybe this what I'm writing this gay book may not come to the world, but I have to surrender to that. So

Wil Fisher  34:19  
so your practice is to continue doing the morning pages where you're just allowing it to flow? Yes,

David  34:24  
yes. So so the morning pages is more of my personal journaling component but but when I write for the book as I'm working on the manuscript, I'm still also trying to practice the automatic right and it just doesn't always work because I'm still so much in my head and my logic and want to have my five paragraph essay and alter its I'm having to surrender to the process. How long

Wil Fisher  34:50  
do you think this is really for me personally, because I'm working on a book. Yeah. How long do you do the process in the morning of just the free flow? Time it or is it just kind of like a? You just feel it out?

David  35:03  
Yeah, just kind of feel it out.

Wil Fisher  35:04  
Okay, cool.

David  35:05  
I know that the concept of the morning pages came about from Julia Cameron's The

Artist's Way. Yeah, right now, but

but she says in the book to do three pages, because it's really like three pages is enough to allow yourself to get out of your mind. Yeah, that's not a hard and fast rule. So sure,

Wil Fisher  35:24  
yeah, I think it's anything that we can do. I mean, for folks in this space that I imagine you can relate to, it's anything that we can do to open that channel for the wisdom to come through for the highest self knowings, the higher self lessons the you know, or you could also call it a god channel, like tapping into that God frequencies. For me, sometimes it's about playing with my Shruti box and just singing and just seeing one song wants to come out or maybe going into movement. And I mean, it makes sense that when you're writing a book, you want to focus in on that medium. But sometimes for me, I experiment with other ways that I'm just opening up the channel, and allowing sort of like, allowing it through, it's like, okay, it's kind of calm now. And I'm just kind of greasing the wheels, so to speak.

David  36:17  
Yeah, exactly. And I think so all the things that you're kind of saying right now, remind me of the creative, Renaissance process that I I'm writing up discussing, because of what you're saying, you're saying you're trying to get into some kind of like a creative flow or something that yeah, that's filling your spirit at that time. And so for me, I use the term spiritual hobbies. These are things that are not spiritual disciplines, because this is like arduous kind of connotation to fun thing. It's chant team, you know, curtain, or it's, I sing, so I still sometimes sing to myself, like, as an expression of my creativity, I'll read books and, and just kind of feel my soul that way, or I'll read some kind of spiritually, like, like, spiritual texts like, and so it's like, following your curiosity is like the greatest form of becoming creative, the greatest form of being able to connect to your spirituality, because you're following your intuition. When you're interested in something that's, that's coming from the depths of your soul. And so my favorite spiritual hobbies following my curiosity is and so that means, like, if you're going down a Wikipedia rabbit hole when you're like, looking at a topic, and then you're clicking the next one, you're just interesting. Your, your, your curiosity has been piqued and, and it's just a full process. And that's what really makes life like so rich.

Wil Fisher  37:48  
Yes. Yeah. A couple of things that comments on one is I see that as as being present to the magic, right? So that brings back that magician archetype. It's like, Ooh, what is that magic? Oh, let's go deeper into that magic, right. And so sometimes it's like looking in the magician's hat. And of course, there, it could go a little too deep. Sometimes we also have to keep it at balance. But the hobby thing really resonates with me. But my book is about play. It's about the spiritual path of play. And so it makes sense to me that you would it would resonate with you is not a practice or spiritual work, but as a hobby. So I really love that framework. Thank you for

David  38:31  
Thank you. I think that's, that's a great synergy that

Wil Fisher  38:34  
yeah, for sure. So yeah, I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on creativity and what some of your musings are.

David  38:41  
Right? And so, I mentioned the term creative renaissance. A renaissance is a rebirth. And for me, I had to rediscover my creativity. As a child, I was somebody who loved to draw and create stories and paint and all that sort of thing. As I got older, and I learned to hide my gayness. It's like, it coincided with me not being creative at all. And so I was like, clamp down. I said, I'd like to say that it was dead to that creative part of myself, because I was dead to the deepest, truest parts of myself as a gay man. And so, during the times that I was at my worst and rock bottom, I was I remember things myself, I'm just not creative. I'm not the ideas guy. I'm not. I'm not someone who's intuitive and I can't have hits about people I don't have I don't know certain things, whatever. And then it's almost like once I came out to myself, it's almost like my intuition, and creativity kind of like just like started like growing it's like almost like a picture of a plant of like a seed like starting to sprout, because I was alive to the truest core of who I was. And so the universe put, you know, situations in my life to where I started having intuitive hits and I started learning, I started deliberately seeking out ways in which I could become more creative and intuitive and gotten to a meditation and learning and going different types of courses where I was practicing, you know, different spiritual things. And, and so, you know, the biggest thing, the first thing that I had to learn as a try to recover as I was on my creative renaissance, was returning to the things I loved as a child. And so I started started writing again, which, of course, is leading to this book, and I started doing some just a little bit of drawing or doodling, and I do some kind of meditative writing in my journal, the pages of my journal have all these, you know, doodles on them and, and I started singing again, a certain lessons and that was something that I had hid, because I was trying to be, you know, act like a, you know, macho like hetero. And so all of these things I had to return to. And as I did that, I started to flourish. I also had to learn to accept the messiness of the creative process, a process that I call the grunge mindset, where it's like, I just get a lot of ideas and like, just throw them down and not worry if they make sense not worry if they look pretty or not. And so just accepting that dirtiness is dirty. This is where, you know, like, it's like, it's like, out of the mud, you can create like, beautiful like, like sand, you can create beautiful, like Master sand castles. And so being Okay, with that was just a beautiful thing. And I need to remind myself in my writing process is I'm working on this manuscript. It's like, I just need to get my ideas on the paper. I don't need an angle and wordsmith so much because perfectionist comes in.

Wil Fisher  41:57  
Yeah, beautiful. I have a few things I want to share about this in the context of spirituality. But before I do, what are some of your thoughts on how spirituality plays a role in all of this?

David  42:13  
The God source, the universe is creative by nature. And when we tap into that, when we make a deliberate choice to engage our spirituality, and connect with God and the divine, by an outflowing, creativity happens. And so I think when we are honoring of our spiritual, whatever that means, in our lives, creativity is just a natural flow that comes out of it. So being open to that, following our curiosity is another way in, which is another creative tip. And so, yeah, staying engaged with that is the most wonderful thing.

Wil Fisher  42:59  
Yes, I love that. Yeah. What occurs to me is that, you know, many people refer to God as creator, you know, and so, when we are connecting to God consciousness to the God that is within us, that part of us, that is God, we are also creators, right? And that I love you talking about going back to your childhood activities. And to me, when we are children, that is when we are closest to our truth, right? It's before we've had the impact of society, put pressuring us to conform and to change who we are in order to fit this mold, that is telling us that's how we need to be in order to be safe. And so when we are able to recall and connect with that inner child, and that creativity that was naturally inherent in that child, that that creator, that pure Being of Light, that's when we're able to tap back into ourselves as creator. And it is, you know, it definitely relates to what I've been working on, which is the playfulness, right? To me, playfulness is one of the paths that I like to work with to tap back into the truth of who I am, who I had great access to when I was a child. And, and so yeah, creativity is another access point.

David  44:26  
I love that what how can I play more in my life, I want to ask you,

Wil Fisher  44:31  
you strike me as somebody who's got a good mastery of play already, just in the energy that you show up with. And I think your creativity is definitely an access point. But I suppose part of it is bringing that intentionality to your life situations to your relationships, you know, and when you're in these moments, like ask yourself like, how can this circumstance Be more playful, how can I bring? How can I call that in? And, you know, it could even be with your group, you know, it's like, okay, we've got, we're gonna do a check in, how can we do this check in in a more playful way? Or how can we, you know, start with playfulness? Because the playful energy is this magic sauce that helps create heart centered connectivity, like right off the bat. And so it is something that is underused, especially with male adults, because we've been told that we need to walk through the world serious and stoic. And so when you can bring that magic sauce like it, it can be a magical alchemical path.

David  45:40  
Yeah. Well, thank you for that, that inflection because it's actually a I also appreciate that you the the comment that you made about me coming off as being open to that or like, but it's also because I have had to deliberately work towards it. Because I am by like, nature, very task oriented. And I'm like, I just want to get this done. I want to get this book finished. So I can move on to the next thing. And it's like, it sounds like very. But I also want to just be able to enjoy life. And you know, so I love that. How can we make this creative? Like, yeah, fun thing?

Wil Fisher  46:19  
Yeah, both. And I would say, for me, both playfulness, and creativity, those energies are very much in the process, right? I mean, yes, there's often a product on the other side of creativity. But the process is the real gold for the for the artists, right. And in the same way, the playfulness, the process is the gold, it's not that you won the soccer game, it's that you played the soccer game, and you had this experience that now is a memory of the soccer game and the ways that you grew and became stronger and smarter as a result of the process. Right. And so I feel like playfulness and creativity are both invitations for us to lean into the process as well, which is also of course, the spiritual principle, which is to be keep coming back to the now keep coming back to the present moment.

David  47:11  
That's so good. The process, the process.

Wil Fisher  47:15  
The results? Yeah, this

David  47:17  
is beautiful.

Wil Fisher  47:19  
Yeah, yeah. And something that's coming up as an invitation for you to consider too is, is Improv Theater. That's always been a really great line for me. And I have an improv troupe that I work with. And I teach it to young adults on the autism spectrum. And it's all about the process, because we don't usually have a product, we're just creating it in the moment, right. And so it calls in people's creativity, because you are literally creating on the spot, and you have a little bit of a pressure cooker to do something right when you've got these eyes on you. And so you have to create in a way. So yeah, improv can be a nice way to cultivate that as well.

David  48:00  
Love that. As you're talking about the process. What I'm hearing is, the processes were connection happens. Because oftentimes, people see the results. And they think the results are kind of unattainable, or they think I'll never get there. But when they see the point when people see the process or know what the process is like, it's like there's an element of relatability. And under the dog kind of perspective, it's like, oh, well, if David can go through all of these things, and hear about all the stories, when I read his book, it's like, Oh, it doesn't sound like he has it all together. Because I know this process, right. He knows that it's a it's a beautiful process. It's like, it's like the process allows us to see that the end result has has merit. It hasn't legs. The stone has a foundation. It has a platform. Yeah. Has depth. Yeah, depth. Exactly. I love that the process I'm going to remind remind myself

Wil Fisher  48:59  
happens. Yeah, me too beautiful. Oh, this has been so much fun. Any other topics you feel called to cover anything else you feel moved to share?

David  49:11  
Yeah. You know, and I think just one last note about creativity. And what has really helped me is the process of creative visualization. And so the other day, I'm taking some some classes on on like a metaphysics class, and the leader asked me what my meditation process was like, and this other students were talking about, you know, like, I guess what I would consider more mindfulness, you know, trying to clear your mind or like, focus on a word. And then when he asked me, I was like, Well, I visualized this inner castle that I have. And as I was saying it I was noticing I was trying to lean back I was trying to I wasn't living my full self. I was like, I see you know, just try to connect My divine purpose and I connect this. But in reality, what I should have said was that I go and I talk to my spirit guides, and then I go to one wing of this interior castle where I'm going to my past lives. And then I go to the other one where I'm going to my creative visualization future like self and all of these. And so, as I close my eyes and visualize my meditation is actually quite beautiful. And vision. You know, so So, so seeing that I was able to get ideas that are out there in this interior Castle, which Heaven or could be, you know, whatever it is where I connect to my divine place, but it's, it's where I visualize and I go to that spot, in my mind.

Wil Fisher  50:43  
Beautiful. So I love that that's so juicy. So with that in mind, I present you with a challenge or just, oh, it's more of a playful invitation, which is can you imagine a world where queer spirituality has been this medicine that has just sort of like, rained down over the universe, and created so much healing and transformation? And what does society look like? What how does this universe operate and function? Once it has received the elixir that is queer spirituality?

David  51:23  
All of this is amazing. I love this question. Well, I think humanity as a whole is, the main purpose is to realize their fulfillment, their sacred contract, Paulo Coelho, and the alchemist says, trying to realize their personal legend, what makes them come alive. That's humanity as a whole. We're hetero whatever, you know, you assign yourself queer spirituality, because of the spiritual functions that we have. And I invite the listener to look up Krishna to where it does work, because I think he does a really great job on describing this where I learned all of these archetypes, and other writers have written on it as well. And look at these archetypes and seeing when queer folks embrace these archetypes. They, they help the rest of humanity lean into this realization of their personal legend. Because humanity is flawed, and the world is what it is, people deal with sickness and we deal with death and problems. When we have queer spirituality. We can people live in the queers who queer people who live in their spirituality are able to have these functions that they can heal the world. So for example, if a person is sick, one of the queer archetypes is a caretaker. And when a queer person leans into their caretaker nature, if they have that particular archetype, then the people who are sick can can receive that healing, then the person who the queer person who lives in that caretaker has the fulfillment in it. People like you and I, as I assume would want to yours would be as the alchemist. And for me, it is when I get to create when we get to create and show people teach people spiritual lessons, or help them realize their divinity. We're fulfilled because that's one of our giftings. But then they're fulfilled because they get to have a realization of the Divine. And so my dream for the world and humanity is just for that for queer folks to live in their spirituality so they can heal themselves in the world. Yeah,

Wil Fisher  53:51  
beautiful. Yeah. And the visual that was coming up for me, it was like, as you were describing this gorgeous reciprocity of queers working with their gifts and people receiving them, but it's like the divine in individuals sort of coming online like these little lights, you know, as the queer person steps into that, that power that gift, their light comes on and as they heal, or provide that gift, the light of the receiver comes on and all this divine light coming into, into illuminance. Yeah, cool.

David  54:31  
Sparkle effervescence.

Wil Fisher  54:34  
Yes, yeah, it's a sparkly world, a beautiful, sparkly world of love. Well, this has been so much fun. I'm so so glad that we took this time. I am really just inspired by you and grateful for you and the way that you show up in this world and happy to be connected to you. So thank you so much.

David  54:58  
Thank you so much. Well, and I I'm so excited that the work that really beloved is doing, you know, I came across this podcast, and it was like, oh my god, this is exactly what I like my soul needs and I'm excited to like, Listen, I've like binge listened to the other episodes. And I'm just so excited there other folks like you and all your other guests that are just like this, like, radical embracing of their spirituality because it's inspiring and it helps me lean into that even more for myself.

Wil Fisher  55:33  
So I'm so glad you're part of it. Blessings to you.

David  55:36  
Yes, thank you.

Wil Fisher  55:38  
Thank you so much for listening Beloved's I hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as I enjoyed creating it. And I hope you're all having a fabulous summer. Please remember that I host personal one to one retreats. And this summer is a wonderful time to do it as they take place in my hometown in San Diego, California, which is a mazing place to be during the summer. So please check that out in the show notes. You can find the link and I'd love to talk to you about what that would look like for you. Have a beautiful beautiful day. Oh my goddess Beloved's What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay, sending so much love and light your way today and every day. Until next time, peace.