Exploring Our Queer Spiritual Roles with Don Kilhefner

The LGBTQ History Project maintains that Don Kilhefner is the most dangerous gay activist alive in America. For over 50 years, he has fought to secure civil rights for LGBTQ people. Without a doubt, the fruits of his work have changed the world. He was a founding member of the Gay Liberation Front in 1970, one of the first organizations to bring gay rights to the general public’s attention.  He co-founded the Los Angeles LGBT Center, which has become the model of all LGBTQ Centers around the world with a $172 million yearly budget and nearly 800 employees. In 1978, he co-founded the Radical Faeries, a counter-culture network and movement that explores queer consciousness and queer spirituality and is alive and well today all around the world. He has dedicated the second chapter of his life to the exploration of queer consciousness and his community-based psychology practice.

We start this interview by discussing the importance of intergenerational connections in the LGBTQ community. Next, we get into a juicy conversation addressing how heterosupremacy defined who we are based on sex, and now it’s time to re-envision who we are and what it means to be gay beyond sex. We explored the possible purpose and roles of LGBTQ folks from a historical and anthropological perspective. Two possible roles we identified are the altruistic impulse, and the cooperative principal which Don describes. 

Don then shares the origin story of the radical faeries and the part he played in starting the radical faerie movement along with Harry Hay. Delightfully we get to learn some of the beautiful details from the very first radical faerie gathering. 

We end with Don sharing his thoughts on what our community’s biggest challenges. This included a concept called "elite capture" meaning we’ve moved from a grassroots community-based movement to a movement where the elite have monopolization the LGBTQ community and it’s fight for rights. This shift is failing, and Don and I consider what needs to change.

This is a pretty epic interview with a very epic figurehead of the LGBTQ history!

Transcript

Wil Fisher  0:02  
Queerly Beloved, We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and clearly spiritual. I'm still the a will gather rainbow, spiritual life coach retreat hosts with the most and drag queens and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks are simply sharing some wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wound together in this spiritually queer a cosmic container and blast off.

Don  3:12  
I was looking forward to this interview will, oh, I've said something about your history, and involved in in the gay community with insightfulness, with which you ask questions. I look forward to this interview. I appreciate that some I see it more as a dialogue. Interview. Well, thank you, that means so much, especially coming from you and your remarkable history in the LGBTQ community. And we'll see if there's time for me to add my two cents, but I've got so much that I want to hear from you. So we will see. But I'm certainly excited for it to be a conversation. And I just am aware that there's so much that I want to hear from you. So thank you for making the time to do this. It's really a an honor and a pleasure.

Wil Fisher  0:00  
Are

A low beloved, I'm so excited to introduce the first interview of the second season of clearly beloved, and this one happens to be with an incredible man, a historical figurehead and LGBTQ movement that has done so much for queer liberation and in the world of exploring queer consciousness. This man is Don keel Hefner. The LGBTQ history project maintains that Dawn is the most dangerous gay activist alive in America. And for over 50 years he has fought to secure civil rights for LGBTQ folks. Without a doubt the fruits of his labor have changed the world. He was a founding member of the Gay Liberation Front in 1971 of the first organizations to bring gay rights to the general public's attention. he co founded the Los Angeles LGBTQ Center, which has become the model of all centers around the world, with $172 million yearly budget and nearly 800 employees. In 1978. he co founded the radical fairies, a counterculture network and movement that explores queer consciousness and queer spirituality, which is alive and well today all around the world. He's dedicated the second chapter of his life to the exploration of queer consciousness, and his community based psychology practice. So in this interview, we start off by discussing the importance of intergenerational connections in the LGBTQ community. And next we get into a conversation addressing how hetero supremacy defined who we are based on sex. And now it's time to re envision who we are and what it means to be gay. We explored the purpose and our roles as LGBTQ folks from a historical and anthropological perspective, identifying commonalities and theories of our queer purpose, including the altruistic impulse and the cooperative principle. Don then shares the origin stories of the radical fairies, and the party he played in starting the radical fairy movement along with Harry Haye. And he shares some really beautiful details, we end the interview with Don sharing his thoughts on what our community's biggest challenges are these days, including a concept called elite capture, where we've moved from a grassroots community based movement to movement where elite have monopolized the LGBTQ community and its fight for rights, and how this is failing and what we might do instead. This is a pretty epic interview with a very epic figurehead in LGBTQ history. And I'm so proud and so thrilled and so honored to be sharing it with you all as the first interview in the second season of clearly beloved, enjoy. Good morning, Dawn. So good to see you. Welcome to clearly beloved.

Don  4:08  
I enjoy intergenerational dialogues.

Wil Fisher  4:12  
And it's so important for unity. I feel like one of the things that our community lacks and one of the things that I've seen you taking an initiative to to to solve to create some alchemy around is that the lack of intergenerational connection in our community.

Unknown Speaker  4:32  
Indeed, last

Don  4:36  
20 years, my life has been devoted in part to facilitating intergenerational dialogue and trying to eliminate the age apartheid that we find in the gay community that generations aren't talking to each other. And a healthy community will always have A sense of

Speaker 3  5:01  
youth, adults, elders, ancestors,

Don  5:06  
and the interdependence of these different age groups with each other. Elders need youth the same way youth need elders.

Wil Fisher  5:17  
Yeah, I wonder Dawn, you know, I just actually returned from a trip with my family with my extended family. And you know, there are multiple generations on this trip. We all went to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons together. And it was this, you know, very beautiful experience of being with people from multiple generations. And so I imagine that part of that age apartheid, is the fact that we as queer people often relate to our chosen families, right? In our communities. And with our bloodline families, there's more of that there's more of the connection between the inner generations. And I wonder is, is that where you see the cause of the the, as you describe it age apartheid? Or is it something else that's keeping us in the gay community from being connected generational intergenerational, you

Don  6:14  
have to remember that the primary purpose of heterosexuality from an evolutionary biology point of view is reproductive survival of our species. They do it well. And in that construct is a culture based on raising children, schools, what have you. Now we as as gay people, have only had about 60 years in the United States, 50 years of consciously creating a community. So it isn't like we're doing something wrong or it's not there. It's we have to create it. Yes. And so that out of gate integration, I think it's common understanding, intergenerational importance. And we have children, just as heterosexual stepchildren, it's not biological heterosexuality is based on a hetero or biological centric understanding. We as in my opinion, we as gay people, are kind of connection, our role in society is something else. And we have a spiritual

Speaker 3  7:32  
responsibility to our young. And it's

Don  7:37  
been fulfilled here and there. Not very well, but you're in there it is happening. And there's certainly more of that today than there was in the past.

Wil Fisher  7:49  
Okay, I've got follow up questions. But

Don  7:54  
I know I, after 55 years of continually studying this, and being part of manifesting this, sometimes that experience gets in the way,

Wil Fisher  8:10  
though, it's beautiful. It's like there's just an overflow of wisdom and a wealth of knowledge that wants to be poured out, or I want to drink from and that I want my listeners to drink from. So it's all

Don  8:24  
a two way street. Your enthusiasm enlivens me. Hmm, thank you.

Wil Fisher  8:31  
Yeah. So

Don  8:33  
wait Street, it's always a two way street. intergenerationally, huh.

Wil Fisher  8:37  
So my listeners expect a question up front. And so I want to make sure that I get it in there, which is to tell me who you are Don, in this moment and your life on this day on this planet in this body. But tell me who you are by describing a perfect drag avatar that embodies that. And if you'd like I can go first. If that's helpful.

Don  9:02  
I would be interested. I do that someone that might buy it. Love to hear that for you.

Wil Fisher  9:08  
Okay, yes. So just breathing into what I'm feeling in this moment. And I, there's such an excitement in my heart. You just use the word enthusiasm. And that is absolutely how I'm feeling. I'm in this energy of enthuse. And so my drop

Don  9:30  
me that word comes in to the end part means in fouzia as uncomfortable to know the spirit is within you. The spirit of the Divine is in you when you have enthusiasm. Ah, yeah.

Wil Fisher  9:45  
Yes. And I feel that spirit in me. I do too. And so my drag avatar that embodies that it's a it's a bright pink energy. It's very joyous and celebratory and spring I can so it actually is, as I say that it's like a sprite. It's a sprite energy. So I'm this like, bright sprites with sort of like a spiky pink hair. And you know the twittering wings that are just, it's so energized and excited to, you know, to drink from this nectar and to smell this flower and to move around and explore and discover. So that would be my drag avatar this enthusiastic.

Don  10:31  
You're a radical very.

Wil Fisher  10:33  
I am a radical fairy. Yeah, I

Don  10:35  
can I can ever been to a radical fairy gathering.

Wil Fisher  10:39  
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I love the Fae. My main sanctuary is destiny. And we do a lawless gathering where we produce a play. And we have skipped it for the last few years, because we're COVID. It's happening this year, which I'm so thrilled about. I'm not sure that I'm going to make it but doing that play, you know, we do it on top of the mountain and full production costumes scripts, it's written by one of the Fae. And so I often cast as the ingenue, often cast is one of the female leads, which has always been a joy. But yeah, it's the fairy, the fairy magic is alive in me and something that has given me so much life.

Don  11:28  
So your enthusiasm?

Wil Fisher  11:30  
Thank you. Thank you. And I'm excited to talk about the fairies. But before we get into all this juicy stuff, what would your drag avatar for the day being?

Don  11:39  
I don't know if I would call it an avatar. But I would say one of the models of like gender fluid person that I've always felt is the singer. Sylvester. Yes. Who grew up in Los Angeles, came to a stardom through the cockpits in San Francisco. And, and self as a musician. I always liked

Unknown Speaker  12:08  
I just always liked his

Don  12:09  
mannerisms. I liked his political consciousness. I liked his connection to the community. So one of the models for me would be so that's one of the gender fluid models for me would be Sylvester. Love that.

Wil Fisher  12:24  
What's your favorite Sylvester song? My favorite one? Song by Sylvester?

Don  12:29  
Um, you know, it's been a long time since I've listened to them. Yeah, I can't name one offhand. Okay, yeah. 85. Sometimes, once memory gets a little problem, we'll

Wil Fisher  12:43  
see if we die.

Don  12:44  
But let me just say what I loved about him was his mannerisms. And how he was truly queer. How he was truly a radical theory. Truly gender fluid, truly beautiful to look at. Beautiful in terms of Iranian beautiful in terms of this commitment to our community, particularly with the beginning of the AIDS pandemic.

Wil Fisher  13:11  
Was he around during the radical fairies? Did he ever show up at a gathering I, to the

Don  13:17  
best of my knowledge, he hasn't. But you know, one of the things about the radical fairies Harry and I made sure from the beginning, that the radical fairies would be decentralized. There's no radical fairy Pope. So that the things are happening with radical fairies all over the world. Every now and then I'll get an email cluing me into what's happening in Australia, or Taiwan, or Europe, or on and on and on? I really don't know if so that's a shut up

Wil Fisher  13:54  
under rankled Very good. Yeah. Yeah. But you're just

Don  13:56  
so much going on that one person can't keep it all trackable.

Wil Fisher  14:02  
Yeah. Well, one of the favorite songs for me is you make me feel mighty real.

Don  14:07  
Yeah. So I know the song. I love it. Thank you for reminding me of it. Real? Well, I think so Lester has influenced you.

Wil Fisher  14:18  
Oh, for sure. And I love that message. Right? What do you like about it? I love also just their energy and their unabashedly queerness during that time, and they were huge, you know, they were they were adored and and celebrated in such a beautiful way. And in that way, I'd say a revolutionary towards our, our acceptance, you know, and our our capacity to be celebrated role models for folks to be all of who they are to be their authentic selves. I mean, yeah, they Sylvester is a hero of our of our movement for sure.

Don  15:01  
this coming Wednesday. In my mailing up gay tribal elders I send out weekly, there will be an article about Sylvester.

Wil Fisher  15:11  
Oh, want to make sure you read it this way? I will. I will. Absolutely. So, you know, one of the things you mentioned, as we were talking about heterosexual, and they're one of their purpose being to create it to procreate and to create kids. And then you mentioned that, you know, gay people, LGBTQ people have a different purpose. And I know this is a big question, but I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts on what you believe our purpose is

Don  15:44  
why I'm suggesting to LGBT people, particularly gay man, where most of my work has been with gay men and women, that there's a need for revisioning a, what it means to be gay, what that word means, up until the end of the 19th century, and let's say in Europe, we'll call sodomites. It was a negative term, and resulted in our being burdened alive

Speaker 3  16:16  
at the stake, at the end of the 19th

Don  16:20  
century, came in the scientific study of sex. And for the first time, the words heterosexual, and homosexual or use heterosexual, good and normal, homosexual, bad and abnormal. So what we've done is we've allowed hetero supremacy, to define who we are sexual beings. And we have largely live that out with all kinds of different ways that houses white parties, you name it, that we think that we are a sex act, and our identity comes from that, I would suggest it hard to tell about self respecting identity out of a blow job. I love both jobs giving and receiving. But that's not what we are. We know from evolutionary biology, that a trade does not remain in a species, unless like trade is fulfilling some evolutionary purpose. As long as we've had written records, there have been people like you and me around the very first epic in Western literature is the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh, the king falls along with in canoe, and much of the epic revolves around that relationship.

Unknown Speaker  17:54  
Got it.

Don  17:58  
3000 BC and Egypt, there's a glyph, that talks about two men living together
as a couple.

Don  18:08  
They were part of the taros entourage. And the person that's talked about it, and it was the pharaohs hairdresser around for a long time, doing certain roles for a long time. And so I think it is to the task of our generation, that a new generation,
actually, another thing coming generation is to begin to look at gay identity in a new way. That is more or less about assimilation and sexual orientation, and more about something essential that we're doing essentialism and social contribution.
Dr. one of the great evolutionary biologists has written and a Pulitzer Prize winning book call on human nature. Homosexuals, namely the rare carriers of the altruistic impulse  in the human species, unquote. You get that, quote,

Don  19:22  
homosexual may be the rare areas, the altruistic impulse in the human species. He doesn't talk about erogenous zones. He doesn't talk about sex acts. He says there's something else that we're doing our little signs they came up to say your internet connection is unstable. It's nothing personal. Anyway, it's John Ross garden, a transit professor at Stanford University, has written a book called evolutions rainbow. where she looks normal, and yet LGBTQ people, humans, but she looks at us in other species. And she says, We carry the cooperative principle in the human species. Again, she says nothing about sex. But she says there's something now. So EO Wilson talks about altruism, idealism. John Ross garden talks about the cooperative principle,

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
you get it.

Don  20:32  
It's Joy law as sex is, we mean, looking at the tail wagging the dog, and we haven't been paying attention to the dog. So that's why I'm saying there needs to be a revisioning. But what it means to be gay, it has to come from us, heterosexual cannot do it for us, although they can be allies and help us like EO Wilson. We have to do the homework, all the hard work of identifying what it is that we're contributing to society. And that we need to be able to communicate that understanding to the dominant culture. We are here for a purpose. We're here for purpose every meaning to being gay.

Unknown Speaker  21:16  
Anyway, you

Wil Fisher  21:19  
know, that's still your

Don  21:22  
reaction to that,

Wil Fisher  21:23  
I'd love to yeah, stay stay swimming in this in this sea of purpose. And, you know, what I see as as two ships within the sea, are this altruistic impulse and this cooperative principle? So I wonder, you know, to flush that out, what, where could we go with that? So perhaps our purpose is around cooperation and altruism as a starting point. And to me that need

Don  21:58  
is a selling point. A starting point of explanation. Yeah.

Wil Fisher  22:03  
Only point, no starting starting point.

Don  22:05  
Okay. I'm sorry about that. Yeah.

Wil Fisher  22:07  
So my thought is that, and I'm curious how this resonates with you and curious to hear your thoughts. But it's our role as as peacemakers our role as unifiers you know, it's, it's interesting in this time, or in now, in, I was just listening to a little thing, by an incredible drag queen in San Francisco, that I love Juanita Moore, and she was talking about the United States, you know, and questioning that word united, you know, when you when you hear about all these laws being past, you know, challenging our rights and this recent decision around affirmative action and just how we might be as a country forgetting this United piece of United States. Absolutely. I wonder if that is part of our purpose is to be the the medicine that unites people the medicine that unites different communities and and builds bridges. Well, you

Don  23:12  
get this. You got this? Yeah, absolutely. The idea here, you're talking like that,

Wil Fisher  23:19  
huh? Thank you. Yeah, you

Don  23:22  
get this, that we're doing something that makes us important that every generation three and four reappearing, even though
logically doesn't make sense, heterosexual or creating us. There's something in our evolutionary trajectory that requires us to be there. And our oppressors in every instance goes down the drain pipe of history, whoever those depressants are, and we keep reappearing. So there's something important that we're doing in terms of the evolution of the human species. Now, we are also found in other species, there's a book called psycho biological exuberates where a gay man has looked at all of the research on species and gay and lesbian appearances and trans occurrences in species in peer reviewed journals. So it's the cream of the crop. He has identified over 300 vertebrae learning very species, that people like yeah, that hadn't been like you and me and wow, that are doing something. When I when I read about the lesbian, I use the word lesbian quotation mark, the lesbian lizards in Arizona. They mock me on my lesbian friends here in Los Angeles. Why? I read about the savanna baboons in Tanzania, and the difficulty maintaining your monogamous relationships and cheating on their partner. I say, Oh, my God, it just sounds like what's probably would you get it? We have theory and other species. There's a reason why people like you and I are brought into this world. And it involves a change in consciousness on the part of gay people, that we don't reduce ourselves to a sex act, or a party animal. But that were contributed something is either around me with, for example, hairdressers, the Egyptian ancient Egyptian example I gave those hairdressers are still here today.

Speaker 3  25:49  
Many, many women get counseling

Don  25:53  
from their hairdressers, it's more than just a new hairdo. There's a

Speaker 3  25:58  
dialogue that takes place. And that's helpful to heterosexual

Don  26:05  
I work as a elder and other ways. That's a human in depth psychologists and other roles are I worked with a lot of young heterosexual men. It's the here it is a saccade elder, helping these young men to grow into their masculine or manhood in a healthy way, you get it. I really like what we're doing something important.

Unknown Speaker  26:38  
This culture.

Don  26:40  
When I was in the shamanic training with Michael Porter, at the foundation for shamanic studies, I would say in my cohort, cohort, we did a lot of training along with three years of trading with Michael. And I would say that probably in a room of

Speaker 3  27:00  
40 people, I was able to probably half or many

Don  27:07  
60% are gay men are lesbians. You get it, that we're drawn to. That's our role that we play as medicine men and medicine woman that is recognized by indigenous people. They don't recognize us by a sex act are recognized via role weekly. For example of knowledge on a soulmate West African shaman and has two PhDs, one from the Gora, the Sorbonne, one from Brandeis University. Now the DOMA says among his people, gender is determined not by the plumbing between your legs. But gender is determined by your vibrations, your vibrational energy. And those with the highest vibrational energy are called gatekeepers. Their role is to keep open the gate between the visible and invisible world because of those doorways ever closed, the garden people would no longer exist. Those gatekeepers are people like you and me. Gay and lesbian people have that higher vibrational energy, that they become the gatekeepers, you get this, you get what I'm talking about here. Absolutely the role that we play, that becomes very, very important. And this is recognized, and pre industrial, indigenous societies,

Unknown Speaker  28:45  
nature of societies.

Wil Fisher  28:49  
Beautiful. Yeah, you know, what it makes me think of is, when you talk about it from that more spiritual perspective and the, between the worlds between the genders, it's more bridges, it's more bridge making, it's more opportunities for unity, more opportunities for the cooperative principle, where we are bridging the physical world with the spiritual world. We are creating cooperation between those things.

Don  29:16  
Absolutely. In an idealistic, altruistic way.

Wil Fisher  29:20  
Yes, in an ideal way. Yeah.

Don  29:23  
We're not just taking care of Archer, Archer, our children are taking care of all children.

Wil Fisher  29:28  
Yes.

Unknown Speaker  29:30  
Who cares?

Don  29:37  
Talking with you, you get this I can tell by looking at your eyes. I can tell you.

Wil Fisher  29:43  
I feel it in my heart. You're right. So one of the things I wanted to make sure I created some space for in our time together was some stories around the fairies because a lot of radical fairies Dude, listen to this podcast. And I don't think many of them have heard it straight from the sources mouth, the origin story. So I'd love it if you, we could detour from some of these amazing concepts, which I'm sure we'll circle back to, and perhaps it's interwoven within the story. But I'd love to hear about the founding of the Fae. Well, that it's

Don  30:23  
connected. What we were talking about revisioning, gay identity, and the radical periods of connection, Harry and Harry, of course, being the founder of being key to the founding of the magazine society in 1950. And I involved with the Gay Liberation Front row of Los Angeles and creating the gay community center in Los Angeles, I co created. Harry and I, during the 70s stayed in contact with each other. He moved to San Juan Pueblo in New Mexico, I was here in LA, periodically, I would go to San Juan Pueblo, periodically, he would come to Los Angeles. And whenever we did, we carved out a large amount of time to dialogue with each other. That 1978 I was doing a retreat, Buddhist meditation retreat and fasting at a lama, a Sufi community and the SAM de Cristo Mountains, in northern New Mexico north in the mountains above the towels. And Harry came in John showing something called this Metricon. And I reconnected with him again. And then after the retreat was over, I went and spent time that St. One and Harry and I were very disturbed about the direction that the gay movement was going a decade after Stonewall that there was more of an assimilationist hetero nor Maliseet electoral politics, a gay rights movement, meaning let's change the laws for us, but forget about everybody else. So a liberation movement, a gay liberation, but with become a gay rights movement. And we were concerned about the identity of gay people again. So Harry and I decided after much dialogue, to call a conference, we looked for a year at for the right place, and finally found an ashram remotely located east of Tucson, Arizona, in the desert. And it had been used as a juvenile detention facility. And so I had nice facilities, it had a swimming pool. It was amazing. And the middle of this desert, the hair was this girl. And we sent out the invitation for the gathering. We thought if 25 gay men showed up, we'll be lucky. And the gathering was, was described on the leaflet as exploring the spiritual dimension of being gay, exploring breakthroughs and gay consciousness, which was The stated reason for calling the radical theories into being. So you see the connection? Yes. What we're talking about and revisioning gay identity. And what Harry and I were trying to do with the radical theories, as it turned out, over 200 gay men from all over North America, found their way to this remote location in the desert. And for over Labor Day weekend in 1979. That, yeah, 1979 and it was magical. There was no agenda.

Unknown Speaker  34:10  
We said,

Don  34:12  
You are the raw materials of this gathering. You bring your gifts to this gathering, so much structure a couple of days, where we have some great, a great fairy circle each day. We all have a chance to get together and share from our hearts, our hearts, which we did every morning, and then in the afternoon and evenings, share your gifts with the rest of us, whatever they might be. And so there was a workshop on crocheting. There was a workshop on a gemstone there. It was all created by us. And it was amazing. What gifts we carry. I mean it from A to Z. We were there. And then on the closing night, David Cohen of San Diego, the actor, I don't know if Dave is still alive or not. But he has a wonderful, wonderful beam fairy. And he took the leadership and creating a closing ritual, which was one of the most moving things I've ever experienced. And the day that the gathering ended, we vacant, we showed up a week, early and pink, a lot of bread. And so we gave a loaf of bread to everybody, as they were leaving to sustain them on their journey home. And as the last car pulled out of the ashram, a double rainbow, or above the place where we were located. Anyways, as I said, earlier, we wanted just to be decent drawings, that fairies everywhere, fairies are hard to corral, as you know. And so we said, we're not wanting to do any of that. But we're hoping that fairy gatherings happen all over. And they did buy that was in early September 1979. By October, late October, it took me there was a very gathering in San Francisco. And there was a very gathering outside of Boston, there was a bariatric on my butt, and then you couldn't keep track of them anymore. Because somehow or another we had tapped in to something that was extremely important to gay men. were men. And that is who are we?

Unknown Speaker  36:36  
How do we contribute? So that's

Don  36:39  
the founding story. No good. radical theories.

Wil Fisher  36:44  
How do you define radical fairies?

Don  36:47  
I don't define it. I don't define it. I let it come out of each person. There's a radical cherry on you. And it's come out today, I can see it with a smile on your face by the sparkle in your eye.

Unknown Speaker  37:04  
You get it? Yeah. Yeah, you got it?

Wil Fisher  37:08  
Yeah, it makes sense that there's a resistance or that we don't want to define it because part of the foundation of the radical fairies is sort of anti conformity, right. It's an A, a escape from boxes. And so and

Don  37:24  
an exploration. Yes, definitions stand in the way of exploration. We want people to wait for gay men to explore what it means to be gay. That's what it means to be queer. From a gay centered definition, rather than a federal definition that's been laid on us by hetero supremacy,

Wil Fisher  37:49  
yes.

Unknown Speaker  37:51  
Oh,

Don  37:54  
I love that. I love that I could see the wheels turning in your head.

Wil Fisher  38:01  
It's been such a gift for me, Dawn. So I thank you for that work that you did for following that impulse, that altruistic impulse to gather, then at that time, gay men at that time, it has been a huge part of my spiritual journey of my personal growth journey to have access to such an incredible community. And for me, it has really helped me. Yeah, move out of the heteronormative paradigm and to explore who I truly am. And honestly, not just the heteronormative paradigm, I'd say the hormone normative paradigm, right. I think when I first came out, I slipped into just being a gay man, as I understood what that was with, you know, going to bars, you know, multiple nights a week and going shopping and wearing the right clothes and going to the right parties, and there was a certain new conformity that I escaped hetero conformity, but I stepped into homo conformity. And so I remember my first time, you know, at a radical fairy gathering, it was my eyes were just so open and my heart expanding, when I realized that I could create something totally new and something that was so much more authentic to who I am and how I want to express myself and my way of being. And so I just, I thank you and honor you for, you know, planting that seed of re envisioning what it can mean to be queer because it is certainly supported. You're describing

Don  39:40  
in terms of that Homo regimentation, that is what I could never identify with either. I was never any I've never gone to a white party. I've never bars not been a big part of my life. It's been a small part. cuz I was a it wasn't until I was 42 that I went to get that house and tell him how illiterate I was. I went to a bad house in Reno at three o'clock in the afternoon. The the towel, man, and you realize there's nobody here until after

Wil Fisher  40:25  
3pm and Reno's bad. That's, that's so funny. Yeah, you know, I do want to hear about the

Don  40:35  
for you, let me ask you approach it with your biological family or with other biological beings, what role do you play?

Wil Fisher  40:42  
Oh, yeah, thank you for asking that. So as I mentioned, I just got back from this trip. And a big part of my role is, is being a child, a child Wrangler, I'm constantly, you know, the one who the mom and dad have too many kids. And so one of the babies ends up in my arms, or one of the toddlers becomes under my watch. So that's a big part. And, yeah, certainly, a, I would say this, this building of bridges, you know, and gathering people together, you know, my fairy name is gather. And so I do love gathering my family and finding opportunities for the family to come together and, and create some of those intergenerational connections within my biological family. But yeah, I have a big, beautiful family that I'm super grateful for. And I'm super grateful for my queer family, as well

Don  41:47  
as my biological family on the East Coast. I had very little contact with their family building. By here on the west coast of Los Angeles, there was a man by the name of Alan Brosa, heterosexual man, Attorney century at Century City that became legal counsel for the Gay Liberation Front, and then became the legal counsel for the gay community service center, which is the LA LGBT center today. And for 25 years, Alan served in that role. I became a good friend of Alan and his wife, Sheila. And when they had their first child, Jeremy, I could see that they were so fatigued, they were so worn out. They were. And so I suggested, how about if I need you on a Saturday evening, I keep your money, and you to go out and have some fun? Oh, that's a great idea. Again, here comes Theo Wilson with altruism. So here it is that I have no biological children, but healthy heterosexual, who are part of my extended, I'm helping them to raise their children. And a couple years later became my second child, Heather, and I continue playing that role. And they would go away from a wheat for a weekend. And I just move into the house and help to raise these two kids. They go to Europe for two weeks, and I move into the house and pick up the kids. They are both tied up in their jobs, and can't pick up the kids after school. I know over pick up the kid bring them back to the gay center and have them play there until six o'clock until their parents show up. Yeah, and so I helped raise two hetero children. I spent the first 18 years of their lives in their lives, going to movies with them, helping them with homework, you name it. I as an extended family, evolving to Hinderaker currents to Henro children and myself. And at the beginning, they would call me uncle Don. I said no, no, no, I'm not your uncle. I'm not uncle. Well, what do we call you? I said, I'm your fairy godfather. That's why I want to be known as your fairy. And the kids did that. They introduced their fairy godmother. That's beautiful. Anyways, yeah,

Wil Fisher  44:23  
I'm really blessed to have my nephew lives next door, my sister and brother in law and my nephew live right next door to me. We ordered your nephew. We share a gay, he's 11 now but I've been living here for six years. So I've really gotten to be a co parent in many ways. You know, that's a big you can picking him up from school or band camp and, you know, during COVID I was helping with some of the the in home teaching and I'd go visit its class and teach the kids improv theater. And so I've really also gotten to have that, that blessing of parenting without you know the full response. ability of parenting.

Don  45:03  
So that's something again, the idea of EO Wilson's idea of altruism and John rock garden, say, Oh, we're doing that in lots of different species over 300 vertebrates. And the way it happens amongst Eagle. Mama lays

Speaker 3  45:23  
the egg. She sits on the hatches.

Don  45:27  
Morning sitting on an egg. Then the father sits on the egg. Now he gets more to it than the queer Seagull sits on the egg by the hatch the egg, and so they rotate. So the three of them instead of just one.

Unknown Speaker  45:47  
Love it, yeah.

Don  45:50  
altruistically.

Wil Fisher  45:51  
Yes,

Don  45:52  
helping each other, helping the larger species with raising their young and instilling in them. Ideals of AI altruism, cooperation, and those are spiritual qualities. altruism, idealism, cooperate, those are spiritual qualities, bringing into the culture by what we do, not by what we say, but what we do.

Wil Fisher  46:19  
Yeah, and I see that in the the fact that these aren't our kids biologically, they're not our responsibility. And they, they there's a bit of a an attachment, it's like their well being is not is not a responsibility of ours. And yet we are called to support the community in those ways. We are Ristic impulse. It's different

Don  46:42  
than a hero parent. That's why I said fairy godfather, Godfather or godmother. Originally those roles were meant to the around the spiritual education of children, that parents raising these kids have a rough time, which is keep a roof over their head and food on the table.

Wil Fisher  47:03  
Yes,

Don  47:04  
godmother or a godfather. A Fairy Godmother or theory document the Father raises these kids with spiritual values, because we carry those values. So that's why I was working with Heather and Jeremy grosses kids. And you're working with your nephew.

Unknown Speaker  47:24  
Just naturally, yes. Beautiful.

Don  47:27  
Yeah, heterosexuals have their children. We are responsible for all children. And we do that without even knowing it without being conscious that what we're doing?

Wil Fisher  47:40  
Yes. Cool. Okay, so I am conscious of time, and I wanted to create some space. Yes, we

Don  47:48  
have 11, nine more minutes

Wil Fisher  47:51  
to talk about current day. You know, as I mentioned earlier, there's a lot at stake right now, there's a lot coming up against the LGBTQ community and our rights. And I know that you're such a, a very passionate, activist and advocate. And I'd love for you to share what you're most present to as some of the risks that we're up against some of the challenges we're up against. And, you know, perhaps to inform the folks who are listening of some of the topics that maybe are not getting the media coverage that they deserve, and even perhaps some ways that folks might be able to support the movement. One of

Don  48:37  
the advantages I have is I had been in the room or having a front row seat to the evolution of the gay community in Los Angeles over the last 55 years. And history has always been a first love of mine. So I always was absorbing that history. I got involved before there was a community. And one of the things that gay liberation did, and, and an ancillary way the Metropolitan Community Church was developing the concept of a community. And a core element to any community is it assumed responsibility for each other, either to a lesser or greater extent, but basically, it's assuming responsibility for each other. That's a new concept for gay people. The idea that we are responsible for each other, and each other's welfare, and all of that consciousness coming out of Sunday called the gay survival Committee, and the gay liberation fund came the gay community services center in Los Angeles, the first and largest gay community center in the world. And basically that was the word gay. As we're opening the vault who we are, we're in your face, actually. And we're pretty militant about it. Some unity, it was seen as other around what your community could be for services, we have to be able to give, find out what gay people need, and provide those services, and a center or other around what your community. And it worked. It worked in Los Angeles, it worked in San Diego, it worked in Santa Barbara, and worked throughout the country. So that that beginning with gay liberation was grassroots, lots of people involved, and it was community base, community become central to it. Over the last 50 years, what has happened is something that I'm writing an essay on right now called

Speaker 3  50:52  
elite capture, elite capture,

Don  50:57  
meaning that what is happening with moves from a grassroots community based community, to a community in which the elite and elite usually involves wealth usually involves race. White, a usually involves privilege, a usually involves, we own what is best for you, you become a spectator, rather than a participant in your own history. And so we're over the last 55 years. That's what happened. That's what's happened to the, to the community, that we no longer a grassroots participation, we no longer have, like you will meet just going out and doing what needs to be done. We're waiting for somebody else to do it. And politically, it's been a failure for the leak after it's been a failure. All you have to do is look around all these setbacks that have been happening to Ghana, during the gay liberation grid, that wouldn't have happened, we would have fought back. Today, we're watching it happen. And people don't feel young people, they don't know how to get involved with it.

Unknown Speaker  52:12  
So that one of

Don  52:13  
the big issues today is the decreased and collective action and an increase and elite, monopolization of the community. And today, that elite doesn't know what to do that elite usually throw their money at the pump. And that won't happen with this. Well, one of the things we've seen with a hetero supremacists is they had become a grassroots movement. They had become participants, lots of participants engaged, and we have become spectators to what they're doing. What we need to do is reverse that. Move back to a more grassroots community based operation, with all of us getting involved, doing what all of us can do, whatever that might, whatever our gifts might be, and contributing

Unknown Speaker  53:13  
those gifts to fighting back.

Don  53:16  
It's not going back to gay liberation, it's moving forward, what I call queer liberation, or it might be some other name. But it is a younger generation, taking control of what's happening to their lives, and developing a more grassroots, participatory participatory way

Speaker 3  53:38  
of fighting back. And we wouldn't win. We have always won.

Don  53:43  
Our fathers have always gotten the grant during fight. But we have to change the political values by which we're operating. Or it won't happen. I don't know if that answers your question or not. No,

Wil Fisher  53:58  
it makes so much sense. So much clarity there. And it also makes sense to me that as the, you know, capitalism, influence of our society builds that there would be more of a back seat that gay people have taken on the movement because there's an attachment it's like, oh, well, I just watch the news. And assume that the people who are paid to do this right paid Yes, amen. You gotta are going to do the work that needs to be done in order for us to not be you know, have our rights taken away. But they're not doing the work. They're not doing it. Yeah. And so there's this empowerment and they also a, an ignorance that it is up to us, the people on the ground to actually step up and do something about it. Amen. And I wonder what it's going to take to turn that dial to To help people, especially the younger generation who are so unattached and also this goes back to the age apartheid, right, is that many people don't know their LGBTQ history to know that that was even a thing that we actually did take to the streets. And so when they don't know that history and have that connection to elders to share the wisdom and the the context, that this is all happening within its, I imagine it's going to be hard for that, to click for them to see what is possible and to feel that motivation to initiate the the push back.

Don  55:40  
I told you, this would not be an interview, it would be a dialogue. That was beautiful, to hear you preach. That was beautiful to hear what you had said,

Wil Fisher  55:49  
you get this, thank you. And and you need to

Don  55:53  
embody that now in the community, that consciousness because young people need to hear you need to hear wil Fisher needs to hear Don keel after engaging here. Gay and queer men talking a different language and walkway have been propagandized to believe

Wil Fisher  56:19  
that so, so maybe that's the possible beginning to the solution is Yes, more people who are key to this consciousness who are understanding and aware of this truth, to be speaking out and to to get the troops, you know, to call to arms, those who are are sleeping, or

Don  56:44  
I was beautiful watching you speak. If you would just write down those words that you've said, and listen to them, you get this, you understand this. And it's your generation that'll have to mentor

Speaker 3  57:00  
you on how to do this. Because you know how to do it,

Don  57:05  
you understand it conceptually, and you have the skills to be able to do it, to embody

Unknown Speaker  57:11  
it in the world.

Don  57:14  
It's a responsibility on the shoulders of your generation, people like you here generally, just like with my generation, there was a whole generation of a part of a generation where we had to assume a responsibility for fighting that. Yes, I creating a clearing in the forest. Well, we could breed where we could be ourselves. And that clearly needs to be expanded. And it's your generation and younger people that will do that.

Unknown Speaker  57:48  
Thank you. Oh, I Yeah, it's not

Don  57:53  
we've been talking for an hour.

Wil Fisher  57:55  
Yes. And

Don  57:58  
usually after an hour, I begin to wilt I need to go eat some popcorn. Yes, yes. Drink a Diet Pepsi.

Wil Fisher  58:07  
Yes. I've been this little sprite if you're the wilty.

Don  58:13  
Riders, would you like top of your

Wil Fisher  58:15  
flowers? Thank you, Don, this has been an absolute honor. If you want

Don  58:21  
to we can continue this dialogue. That's fine. But this has been a truly enjoyable dialogue with you. I told you it would be a

Wil Fisher  58:31  
dialogue. Yes. Thank you. For your wisdom. Thank you for all your work. Well, you're welcome.

Unknown Speaker  58:37  
You're welcome. Wow, I

Wil Fisher  58:39  
don't know if you could tell how excited I was to interview Don, but it really was a total honor. And he did not disappoint. I'm so thrilled that you are here with me in this second season of crealy. Beloved, if you haven't subscribed yet, please do. Check out the notes for more info about Don and more info about me and my coaching practice wilfully living. And thank you so much for supporting the show and being on this journey with me. Oh, my God is beloved. What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay. And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time. Peace