Rabbi Dr. Jay Michaelson is a writer, journalist, meditation teacher, and professor. He is the author of ten books, most recently The Secret That is Not a Secret, a collection of ten interlocking tales of mysticism, queerness, and magic. Jay’s previous book, The Heresy of Jacob Frank: From Jewish Messianism to Esoteric Myth, won the 2022 National Jewish Book Award.
As a journalist, Jay regularly appears on CNN and in Rolling Stone, The Daily Beast, The Forward, and other publications, and won the 2023 New York Society for Professional Journalists Award for Opinion Writing. For ten years, he worked as an LGBTQ activist, and is the author of the bestselling God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality. Jay is also a meditation teacher in Buddhist and Jewish traditions and serves on the leadership team of the New York Insight Meditation Center.
In the academic world, Dr. Michaelson a public fellow at American Jewish University and a field scholar at the Emory Center for Psychedelics and Spirituality. He holds a PhD in Jewish Thought from Hebrew University, a JD from Yale Law School, and nondenominational rabbinic ordination. He lives outside New York City.
In this interview we cover many topics including Jay giving an introduction to what Jewish Mysticism is all about. We also explore the nuggets of queer spirituality found within traditional religious beliefs. We cover some of the stark differences between spirituality and religion and the tension they create.
Inspired by a story from his newly released book of stories, The Secret that is not a Secret, I share about my first erotic experience with a guy which happened in a hot tub. I then ask Jay about how his experiences in spaces like radical faeries gathering and Burning Man have impacted his spirituality and the way he communes with spirit.
And, Jay shares a story that helped him realize that our full expression as sexual beings contributes to, is informed by and enriches our full expression as spiritual beings. Please enjoy this thought provoking and fun interview with my friend, Jay Michelson.
Subscribe to Jay's Substack here-
https://jaymichaelson.substack.com/
Grab Jay's new book, The Secret that is not a Secret, here-
https://www.jaymichaelson.net/books/the-secret/
Connect with Wil Fisher here-
https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/contact
Rabbi Dr. Jay Michaelson is a writer, journalist, meditation teacher, and professor. He is the author of ten books, most recently The Secret That is Not a Secret, a collection of ten interlocking tales of mysticism, queerness, and magic. Jay’s previous book, The Heresy of Jacob Frank: From Jewish Messianism to Esoteric Myth, won the 2022 National Jewish Book Award.
As a journalist, Jay regularly appears on CNN and in Rolling Stone, The Daily Beast, The Forward, and other publications, and won the 2023 New York Society for Professional Journalists Award for Opinion Writing. For ten years, he worked as an LGBTQ activist, and is the author of the bestselling God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality. Jay is also a meditation teacher in Buddhist and Jewish traditions and serves on the leadership team of the New York Insight Meditation Center.
In the academic world, Dr. Michaelson a public fellow at American Jewish University and a field scholar at the Emory Center for Psychedelics and Spirituality. He holds a PhD in Jewish Thought from Hebrew University, a JD from Yale Law School, and nondenominational rabbinic ordination. He lives outside New York City.
In this interview we cover many topics including Jay giving an introduction to what Jewish Mysticism is all about. We also explore the nuggets of queer spirituality found within traditional religious beliefs. We cover some of the stark differences between spirituality and religion and the tension they create.
Inspired by a story from his newly released book of stories, The Secret that is not a Secret, I share about my first erotic experience with a guy which happened in a hot tub. I then ask Jay about how his experiences in spaces like radical faeries gathering and Burning Man have impacted his spirituality and the way he communes with spirit.
And, Jay shares a story that helped him realize that our full expression as sexual beings contributes to, is informed by and enriches our full expression as spiritual beings. Please enjoy this thought provoking and fun interview with my friend, Jay Michelson.
Subscribe to Jay's Substack here-
https://jaymichaelson.substack.com/
Grab Jay's new book, The Secret that is not a Secret, here-
https://www.jaymichaelson.net/books/the-secret/
Connect with Wil Fisher here-
https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/contact
Wil Fisher 0:00
Queerly beloveds, we are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and clearly spiritual. I'm Sylvia will gather rainbow, spiritual life coach retreat hosts with the most and drag queens and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks are simply sharing some wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wound together in this spiritually queer a cosmic container and blast off. Hello Beloved's. Welcome back to clearly Beloved. In this episode, I chat with my friend, Rabbi Dr. Jay Michaelson, who is a writer, journalist, meditation teacher and professor. He's the author of 10 books, most recently the secret that is not a secret, which is a collection of 10 interlocking tales of mysticism, queerness and magic, which we talked about in this podcast episode. As a journalist, Jay regularly appears on CNN, and in fact, he was just appearing on CNN directly before jumping on zoom with me, and he shares at the end of the interview about what he was commenting on there. He also appears in the Rolling Stone, The Daily Beast, the Ford and other publications and won the 2023 New York society for professional journalists award for opinion writing. For 10 years, he's worked as an LGBTQ activist, and is the author of the best selling book God versus gay the religious case for equality. Jay is a meditation teacher in Buddhist and Jewish traditions, holds a PhD in Jewish thought from Hebrew University, a JD from Yale Law School, and a nondenominational rabbinic ordination. And this interview, we cover so many topics, starting with an introduction to what Jewish mysticism is all about. We also explore the nuggets of queer spirituality found within traditional religious beliefs. And then we cover some of the stark differences between spirituality and religion, and also the tension that those differences create. Then inspired by a story from the newly released the secret that is not a secret, I share about my first erotic experience with a man which happened in a hot tub. I also asked Jay about how his experiences and spaces like radical fairy gatherings and Burning Man have impacted his spirituality in the way he communes with spirit. So we get into all of that. Jay then shares this story that helped him realize that being gay and connecting with God weren't two separate things, and that, in fact, our full expression as sexual beings contributes to and is informed by our full expression as spiritual beings, all and the teaser with that one, but we get into so many more topics. I'm really excited for you to jump in to this interview. That is thought provoking and fun with my friend, Jay Michaelson. Enjoy. Hello, Jay Michaelson.
Jay 2:58
Hello, will Sylvia Fischer. Yes. Great
Wil Fisher 3:03
from the studios of CNN to clearly beloved.
Jay 3:10
I don't know how many people have made that exact pilgrimage. But if I'm the first er, certainly, you're certainly
perhaps no Anderson yet. No,
Wil Fisher 3:20
Anderson, no. But he's on the list. I'm sure he wants to come in here and talk about being queer and spiritual and all his fun. Woo woo does
Jay 3:28
actually, you know, every so often, he gives an interview that he does want to talk about those things.
Wil Fisher 3:32
Does he? He has like a spiritual? Yeah. Yeah.
Jay 3:36
It's a meditator, then. You know, he's another like, eat dad late in life. And that's its own spiritual practice. Yeah.
Wil Fisher 3:45
Beautiful. I'm putting him in on him on my list of dream guests. But you are also on that list, my friend. And I'm so grateful for you for making this time.
Jay 3:55
Thank you. It really is fun to hang out again. Yeah, it's been a lot of time. And
Wil Fisher 4:00
I so enjoyed the book. And it's beautiful. By the way, listeners won't be able to see this, but anyone who watches the YouTube will, it covers so cool. It reminded me a little bit of morning story of more learning. More morning,
Jay 4:14
I was curious if the lions evoke anything for you.
Wil Fisher 4:18
What was interesting j is that I didn't see the lines until like, two months after starting to read it. And then I suddenly was like, Oh, the lines and it took a whole new dimensionality. To me it evoked like a playful newness because it almost seemed like maybe you had your daughter draw them, I'll just say. So I felt like a childlike wonder of connection of like bringing things in into a weaving connected way. I
Jay 4:53
love that. I feel like the rush. This is just a Rorschach test those lines like people have very different reactions. If you want I'm gonna maybe ruin it for you. A lot of people say they kind of look like pubic hairs. Oh, I see that now. And there is a lot of sexual theme, a lot of sexual themes in the stories. That was not the intention of the artist David Banner. Roche is a very talented artist was just meant to feel very hand drawn. And you know, the lines don't all connect in the same way. So it's kind of a metaphor for queerness. But some people see it as more earthy, but I love that you didn't actually I love your I love your version of it.
Wil Fisher 5:29
Yeah, it's also giving me so for the reader. I mentioned the morning show, because the morning show intro has all those like circles coming and spinning. The the book cover has these beautiful circles of different colors. And that has also given me like chakra is kind of like, yeah,
Jay 5:46
it's meant to be the Tree of Life, the spirit and which, you know, they're similar in certain ways to the to the chakras. And each of those colors, the spirit are actually associated with different colors, these different potencies of or energies. And so we kind of used the traditional ones, but also cleared it up a little bit. Hmm,
Wil Fisher 6:03
love it. Love it. All right, we're getting out of ourselves. So I want to ask you the first question I asked all my guests, I'm clearly beloved, which is, who are you in this moment, but tell me by describing the perfect drag avatar that embodies that, feel free to take a couple breaths and ask yourself that question, and reply when you're ready.
Jay 6:27
So since I practice this before we started my answers already front of heart and mind. So what I like about my drag avatar is that she is nameless and inevitable, inevitable, like the divine herself. Because she would be based on Barbra Streisand, who was, you know, the sort of neurotic Jewish, multi hyphenate. You know, person is an inspiration for me. We have different hyphens. And my talent, of course, is not, doesn't register on the Richter scale of Barbara. But what I love about her is that, as you and I were talking before we started, there's not really a direct name, maybe some listeners could send some in. Yeah, we've actually solved for 20 years, I've been thinking if I was sitting to do a drag character, her name would be based somehow on Barbra Streisand. And I just never came up with it, even though the word bra is like right in there. So you think like you could do something with that. But I love that my drag avatar is, you know, a kind of controlling Jewish woman on the one hand and ineffable nameless on the other. Perfect. That is the sides of the two sides of me.
Wil Fisher 7:31
Yes, I see that. I absolutely. I love that. Have you been paying attention to? Is it a book that she came up with reach out with recently? Yeah, I
Jay 7:41
think it's a memoir, write a memoir. Yeah.
Wil Fisher 7:42
Have you been checking that out? Or say,
Jay 7:45
I have not I have read some reviews of the memoir. And I saw, you know, some interview with James Brolin actually about about it and about her. But, and it was interesting, you know, I struggle with, you know, switching to your like coaching persona for a moment, you know, I struggle with not quite regret, or envy, but comparing, let's just say, and it was fascinating to read Barbara say that she felt she was asked about her film career. And she felt like she said, I've never really never really fulfilled my potential. And a friend of mine, who I think is also like a K spirit. Person, Dan Callahan wrote this book about kind of the golden age of American songs of Barbara Frank Sinatra, people like the elephants, Cheryl. And he said he actually had agreed it was interesting, you know, like, she's obviously, no one could could debate her genius, you know, as a muse as a singer, as a musician. But it's true, you know, she's had these amazing performances as an as an actor. But you always wonder if there might have been even more. And so it's just interesting to see somebody still on that level, at this stage of her life, reflect back and actually think, Hmm, you know, I wonder I could have done more there. No, I found that inspiring as well.
Wil Fisher 8:59
Yeah, absolutely. To see someone of that caliber, and I would, I would include you in such a high caliber, you know, to regard yourself and ask, Oh, I haven't quite accomplished what my highest potential is. It is I feel comforting, especially for those of us who tend to compare ourselves to the success of others, to see that someone of such high caliber would be also questioning that. And I think the question that it brings up for me is really, what is one's highest potential? And is there ever really a meeting of it? Right? It's almost like this thing that we just keep expanding into and expanding into and trying to reach but is it actually reachable? Sort of, like performance? You know, is it is it ever perfect? It's always perfect, and it's process?
Jay 9:54
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's clear I was talking with a friend I guess I'll say him by name. I'm friends with Dan Harris, who's this best selling author and really changed the world of meditation in the United States. And he was doing that also, like, Oh, I feel like I could get hot, you know, this next potential. And it was, it's always been clear to everybody, I think that like, you know, wherever you are, you tend to look up, and you don't look, quote, unquote, down, which is, of course, this isn't even a vertical metaphor. It's really just horizontal, right? You don't look side to side and be like, Well, yeah, it was there. And now I'm here, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, you know, there's this tendency to verticalized it, and like, Oh, I'm climbing the mountain. And, you know, maybe one day I'll be as famous as this person that or as you know, as happy or as wealthy or as what you know, spiritually advanced. And obviously, it happens in the spiritual world, too. You know, we set up people in there. Sometimes that's good to set up Paragons or, let's say, role models. But then we compare ourselves, I compare myself unfavorably to them. But yeah, I've luckily, on the spiritual side, you know, I've been privileged to meet so many of these, like, amazing teachers. And the neurosis is almost always still there, you know, some degree and so there's always like, it's, I, it's one of the things that I'm sure you have encountered. I'm curious if you've encountered this, but I feel like you must have were like, it's easier to teach or preach than it is to actually practice, right? Where we're like, Yeah, well, you know, quite, you know, hold your inner critic with compassion, but don't believe them. And, you know, see that that voice may have been trying to save here protect you, but no longer serves you. I mean, I can talk the talk really well, that, but walking the walk is a different story. Yeah,
Wil Fisher 11:35
absolutely. It's always this reminder of the relationship with that inner judgment, that inner critic, it is rarely about getting them to completely leave the party, it's about how you get to be with them, and perhaps strategies you create, to be in better relationship with them. And part of that is accepting that they are at the party, and probably going to be there for maybe your whole life. And that might be it's
Jay 12:01
funny with that image, the first thing that came to mind was like, some person at the party who I want to like lock in the bathroom. It's just not the kind of relationship we want to create to this critical voice. But it is like, actually, I was just sitting with a meditation teacher named lock, Kelly. And he was having us do this practice, where we bring up some difficult material, and, you know, like, just a part of ourselves that we're judging or something like that. And, you know, then try to enter a space of a really expanded mind. And he had all these prompts to do that remembering some peak experience and inhabiting the consciousness that you had at that time, just, you know, kind of almost play acting your way into your higher self in a way. And the thing was, like, well, how does this mind how does this heart regard this part? You know, a little bit internal family systems, right, this part of you. And my immediate response without knowing thinking in my brain, what I was supposed to say was, It hates it, I hate it was clear that I was not actually in touch. It was so funny, because I was doing the practice that he had said, and I was like, sitting there grooving out and like getting into the zone. But then when the push came to shove, the prompt was like, Okay, well, how do you know, how can you relate to that part? No, I was not in my quote, unquote, awake awareness, or I forget his exact language. I
Wil Fisher 13:24
appreciate the honesty of that, you know that it wasn't coming up in this like, fake voice that you were actually being real with where you were at in that moment. Yeah. And going back to these spiritual, these spiritual leaders, these these folks who hold such high vibrations that often we look up to and remembering that they are human too. I recently watched this speech by rom Das, who was telling a story, and yeah, all his neuroses were in there, too. And it was a story about a spiritual moment that he was having. And it's just so helpful to have those folks humanized, to remember that we're all on this path together. We're all absolutely keeping it all in balance.
Jay 14:08
Anyone who has all the answers, that's the person not to believe.
Wil Fisher 14:12
Yes, yes. So I'm excited to talk about the book. Before we do I kind of just want to give some backstory around our relationship. And specifically, I want to just mention, and thank you for the Passover dinners, the queer Passover dinner, that I had the pleasure of being a guest at in Brooklyn, and you know, just want to express how much those meant to me to get to be in that circle and have that experience. Thank
Jay 14:40
you. Yeah, we were still doing I've left Brooklyn. I have a six year old daughter. And, you know, we've moved to that we've moved to a nice cozy house outside of the city. And we're very happy with that. But we did go I slept in all the stuff last year into Brooklyn, we're still holding those. So thank you. That means a lot that it stays with you after all. At this time,
Wil Fisher 15:01
yeah, there was always such a beautiful mix of these deep spiritual moments and these traditions that that were weaved together so beautifully, where I felt like I was connecting to something that had this incredible breadth of history, and doing it in this way that resonated with me as a queer person in this queer community.
Jay 15:29
Thanks. Well, you know, you said years, like before we get to the book, but that's what the book is trying to do, too. So,
Wil Fisher 15:35
thank you,
Jay 15:36
that really is that, you know, this book makes use of very, you know, deep wells, of mysticism and tradition and hopefully not too deep to be penetrable by people not, you know, already immersed. But it's, I don't know, can I say queers? FAAC. On the podcast? Yeah. Like we are. Yeah, I mean, that's the goal, is to really queer it not just in the sense of like, here's some queer characters, but really queering a mystical tradition in in a fictional form. It was super liberating for me. So I'm still at the queer Seder. Beautiful.
Wil Fisher 16:11
Could you share a little bit about queer about, about Jewish mysticism?
Jay 16:18
Sure. I think one of the there's sort of a conception of mysticism that it's about having an experience of getting to a place where you can have some experience and that experience is union with with the divine or with the universe, or however, we conceptualize that there is a little of that in the Jewish mystical tradition, but most of it is not actually about that. And it's a different form of mystical and esoteric speculation, experience, writing, and even art. And it's much more about the relationship of the one to the many. So less about having that experience just of oneness and actually having kind of more of experience of experiences of multiplicity of these different energies that tends to be wrote or emanations of the Divine or the sort of energies that are in our body. Again, it is it is there are a lot of points of contact with the chakra, as some people say they're even, you know, there must be something historically in common because they're so similar. I don't know about that. But there's definitely a lot of interesting, I think they're looking at the same human, physical and spiritual form. That's why they're similar. So similarly, there's different energies that are embodied, but are also on an emotional and spiritual and an intellectual level as well. And it's also for that reason, because it's about this kind of dynamic organization, this secret organization of reality. It's also very erotic in the larger sense of the word erotic, so about arrows about desire and yearning and consummation. And sometimes in the narrower sense to and there's a lot of interesting Kabbalah, on sexuality. In its traditional form, you know, they're very concerned with like, all the energies flowing in a very particular way. And yeah, I'm not. So you know, there's, yeah, that includes like the gender binary, and it includes heteronormativity. And so it's masculine femme. There are in those 10 energies, these tends to be road. They're gendered in multiple ways. And there's some that are both have both male and female, which is as close as we'll get to sort of a non binary conception in that system. And there's actually a whole reservoir of queer stuff within the Kabbalah. But I wanted with this work of fiction to really go a little further and really explore where it collides with different queer realities. And, you know, ultimately, I mean, the book is called The Secret that is not a secret. And it's ultimately a lot about this tension, this productive tension between the real and the unreal, or the unseen. And different ways that plays out not that one is, you know, the right thing and the other is the wrong thing. But there are different ways in which that plays out for these characters struggling with desire, with a yearning with a real spiritual yearning. So that's like a really funny intro to cover lotsa Jewish mysticism, but I think it does for now.
Wil Fisher 19:07
Yeah, no, it's beautiful. It's super helpful. And yeah, I'm interested to talk more about these places of collision. I like how you call that they collide together. And, you know, just in I think one of the first stories, though, the one about the beard. Now, one of the things that I was taken aback by was, and I wasn't planning to bring this up. So I don't have it highlighted. But the the husband talked about wanting to pleasure his wife, and that being something that was ordained or that was something that was and I'm just curious, it was that Is that true, that in sort of is true. Yeah. That was really shocking to me.
Jay 19:50
Yeah, there are a couple of there are some there are some sects that are more pro sex than others. Say that 10 times fast, but in no normative Jewish tradition, the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Jews, ultra orthodox Jews, right? Yeah, the, the the, the husband has a religious obligation to give his wife pleasure. And again, that's not universal. But it's also seen, sometimes you might have heard well, and if you've heard, there's a funny thing which which people sometimes hear about, like having sex as a double mitzvah, which means I could go double commandment or double good deed on Shabbat, on Friday night. And that's when that's really when the best sex happens in those communities. And it's a double because one, it's a commandment to be fruitful and multiply, right. But the other is to have joy on the on the Sabbath. And this is a great way to have joy on the Sabbath. So one act gets you double the points, you've done two things that you're supposed to do. And yeah, it's a very, you know, it's complicated. And I say that I haven't nonfiction article called queer Kabbalah, or queer couple on queer theology. And on the one hand, I don't want like to, I don't want to sugarcoat, right. I mean, this is still in its traditional frame, very conservative. It's entirely again, entirely heteronormative. It's about monogamous relationships between man and his wife, and so on. And yet, if you can kind of get into that frame within that frame, it's quite remarkable. And it is, it is in its way sex positive, and it is very juicy and rich. And you know, there's love songs, erotic love songs between God and people. And sometimes the man, that's because it's male, it's a patriarchy, right? The men are doing the praying and the writing of the prayers, but they take on the feminine role relative to the Divine, sometimes the divine takes on the feminine role. So there's a lot of potentially liberating potential within this within this body of tradition. Yeah,
Wil Fisher 21:59
it's so fascinating, because from the outside, you would anticipate, you know, Orthodox Jewish culture, for example, to just be so steeped in puritanical ideas and ideals. And so to read that I was like, Oh, wow, there's some stuff that's underneath the surface here. And I think that was a lot of what was coming through in the book for me was realizing that in these ancient traditions, that it's not all about, puritanical ideals, and that these, these thoughts and beliefs that I hold as a queer spiritual person, around the divinity and sacredness of sexuality and pleasure, for example, and Eros, that these are also shared by you know, the, the seeds that I see in
Jay 22:55
it is yeah, I mean, again, I just did not should not sugarcoat it, right. It's within for them. It's within certain boundaries. Yeah. But But yeah, no, you're right, again, and it's not just, you know, the acidic Jews or the Orthodox Jews. It's also in Islam, you know, part of the covering up of women's bodies, not only to minimize the, you know, the, the tragedy of that, but also part of it is meant to be like, yeah, because then when they're uncovered, it's this very erotic thing between men and wife. And so you see similar things sometimes in Hinduism as well. Yeah, there's, there's not the anti sexual paranoia that you find certainly in some forms of conservative Christianity. Yeah. You know, and that draws, it's just based on what the traditions are, that they're that they're rooted in and their assumptions about, you know, the body and the spirit and how those may or may not be related. And so, yeah, it's there. It's, it's, you know, there was only so far I could really go writing nonfiction about this material. Yeah. And so for listeners who don't know, I've written nine books, or eight books of nonfiction plus one book of poetry and and this, it wasn't like, I didn't want to do it like a theology or something like that. It felt like the look the form of the these interlocking stories. And fiction in general, that just felt like the way to tell the story was to tell stories.
Wil Fisher 24:16
Hmm, yeah. They're such fascinating and fun stories, too. So you're going back to this idea of finding some of the, you know, what I would call queer spirituality within these traditional religions? I'm curious what your thoughts are on that distinction between spirituality and religion and particularly in the context of how that has impacted LGBTQ folks who so many that I know in the LGBTQ community have rejected spirituality because of the negative impacts of religion of organized religion. And, and it's sad because there are some real golden threads that read through both religion and spirituality, when when we take the time to discover them, right as, as I was able to see in this book, for example, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on on that?
Jay 25:14
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, following so I've worked on this and like, in an academic context, you know, for my graduate work, I think, you know, religion is almost impossible to separate from something around like institutional religion or societal structures, you know, and spirituality, by its nature, is open to a kind of experience that might be destabilizing, right, and may take you out of your box out of your identity, in perhaps in relationship with others, or perhaps on your on your own, and but it takes you out of that zone. And there's some kind of transformation that's possible. And that's found in religion, and at the same time, intention with religion, which is often about setting up social structures, and creating structures, whereby people, you know, for better or for worse, are organized, and sometimes often for worse in the case of patriarchy, or, and a lot of other cases as well. So for me, yeah, I've like come out the other end of you know, having rejected religion, I was able to kind of re embrace it in a certain way. But I don't have any, I try not to put any stock or, you know, these characters in this book are much more traditional than I am. And it was funny whether it's not true in all of the stories, right. I mean, there's, there's a couple of characters who are a lot like me, and who are in a contemporary space, but there's a sort of tension, which, as a writer, was just very appealing about these more traditional characters who were still to some degree or another trapped within those structures. And yet, they're feeling this call to the transcendent. And that, to me, are a call to the imminent that call to maybe what's right in front of us. And that to me, is that tension, the spirituality religion tension, that there is these structures and forms like this is the way it goes, it's it's channels in this way, in this direct way. And this one, and no other one. And then like those lines on the on the cover, that's just not how it is. It's not out as it goes in all kinds of directions. And you know, nature itself is very clear. And in the sense of, not not conforming to simple binaries, or simple accounts of this is how it is. So that's the that's the joy of it. Beautiful.
Wil Fisher 27:31
Yeah, that's really helpful. So I want to talk going back to these collisions, I want to talk about the I would call it more of a mixing than a collision, but the mixing of the the purification of water, and then arrows of being naked or bathing in water with one another in the mikvah events are on and this one particularly, I connected with because one of my actually yes, my first queer erotic experience was in a hot tub. And in fact, the first blow to
Jay 28:04
hot tub that you and I were in you were Oh, not cleaned by then. I was.
Wil Fisher 28:08
It was a great school. Yeah, for for our history. Jay Michaelson and I've been have had this interview relationship once before in a hot tub at Easton mountain where I had him on my show tub talks. Back in the day. No, it's not that hot tub. But it was the hot tub of my parents house when I was in grade school. And yeah, and I gave my first blowjob under the water.
Jay 28:34
It was pretty impressive for like a young kid to do just just the mechanics, forgetting about the great sexual awakening, just managing to accomplish that task. Good for you. Yeah. required a lot of breath control. Yeah, breath work. See, that's why you're so into breath work now. calls you back to that primal moment. That's
Wil Fisher 28:52
right. But yeah, there is something that I really love to connect in terms of this. fluidity and almost like innocence of water with arrows and sexuality. And so I really felt that in in that that particular story.
Jay 29:10
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that story is set. So that's, that's true. That has some autobiographical element, not the fun part, unfortunately. But it's set with a an Orthodox Jewish man who has this practice of going to the mikvah, which is like a ritual bath, once a week. And in some communities, it's only that practice is only done by women who go to the go to the mikvah after the end of the menstrual cycle. And that quote, unquote, purifies them to then be able to have sex with their husbands. But in many communities, men also go and he adopts this practice and he's still quite closeted and self hating about his own sexuality. And so for him, I think he if I remember my own phrase, he describes it as like the the expression and self Abnegation. have his sexuality at the same time. So it's like he's in this space with other naked men. It's gender segregated the Mecca. So it's only it's only other men. And it's often before you know, that was based on my experience going to the mikvah in Jerusalem when I lived there. You can get a little crowded before the Sabbath comes in on a Friday afternoon. And so you're really are like you're right in there with like a whole bunch of naked men, you have to go into the into the mikvah completely naked. And yet, at the same time, at the same time, it's charged with that Aeros. It's also this place where he does this purification practice because he thinks of his erotic expression as sinful and is in need of purification. I won't do a spoiler for the for what happens in the second part of the story, but maybe some of those lines get crossed in a provocative way. And that, that was my experience, you know, the very first draft of these stories was written. Gosh, that one actually goes way back. That's almost 1520 years ago. And I was just in a different place in my own journey. And when I first had those experiences at the mikvah, again, not the fun one that's in the book. But yeah, I was still in the closet. It was in the 90s, the early 90s, before I came out, and it was this, it was this heated, compressed experience of being in this kind of, it's not hyper sexualized, No, nobody's having sex, but it is hyper eroticized. You know, this is me at age like 2122. And so not that much older from where we sit now, not that much older from your experience in that at the time, of course, you know, five years difference, that's an eternity. But now, anyway, so this is me, as you know, quite young and, and having that experience of simultaneously experiencing one sexuality and rejecting it at the same time.
Wil Fisher 31:52
And purifying that, right,
Jay 31:55
you're right, he feels a real release, that character feels a real release in the Mecca as I did. And it's such a trap in a way like you don't. It's like when you feel release. What you really need to be released from is the idea that there's something to be released from Yeah, right. That's like part of the secret. That's not a secret, right? It's like, but when you feel release, you're like, I'm released. It's great. This is perfect. Everything is great. But you're still by as long as you're in that zone, if I'm being released, or I'm being purified, you're still in prison.
Wil Fisher 32:29
Yeah, you're you're fooling yourself. Yeah.
Jay 32:31
And you're like deluding yourself that there is a prison? Yes. Right. Like there has to be that there has to be this line. Yeah, that's that beyond this line is forbidden. And on this side, as far as prohibited, as permitted, and you can, you know, by going back and forth, like it was I was, you know, I'm trying to think of it I guess it's like amazing grace or something. Right? I was sinful, right? I was blind. But now I can see you go back and forth, you back and forth. That back and forth is itself the problem. So even the the experience of liberation can contribute to our servitude. Hmm,
Wil Fisher 33:07
wow. That's deep. Yeah. Am I taking that went in? Yeah. So a couple of things like one is that it's like, keeps you stuck in neutrality in a sense, right? That you can never really expand into something greater. You can't really ever find that transcendence. You can't find that, like you said that true liberation, when you're stuck in that paradigm when you're stuck in that story. But yeah, I it also relates to the binary right, that the servitude like it's, it's stuck in that as well.
Jay 33:48
Yeah, and I think, you know, there's, I hold out a little hope for liberation for that character, and the hope that the experience that he does have in the megaphone might transform him. But I deliberately didn't. Well, I didn't want to determine that. Yeah, I don't know if that's true. And actually, there's a little thing this is a little bit of a spoiler, but that character, one of the things I loved doing that was just fun, was weaving the stories together. And that character kind of appears in a later story and he's married a woman that he has not actually maybe learned but maybe that is kind of a spoiler because you don't really it's I tried to not hit the reader over the head with that and it's just mentioned briefly that this this character had this name and this background and, and
but, yeah, there's like a, there's a I didn't want it to be just happy endings. Yeah.
Wil Fisher 34:49
That's hilarious. So let's move on to another one that I found really provocative, which was the verse and well, yeah, I'll just say quick cleave that when we're talking about the verse we're talking about, ended with a man you shall not lie as with a woman, it's an abomination. And so want to just describe what happens with that verse in the story.
Jay 35:12
Sure. So it starts out with the characters kind of lying in bed, I'm not sure if he's awake or asleep, if not sure if the if it's really a dream. And he hears that this verse has been magically erased from every handwritten Taurus girl on the planet. And just by way of background, this is to, for it to be an official Torah that's used for ritual purposes and services. It has to be handwritten on parchment. So it's actually a very time consuming activity. It's also very expensive. And, but that's what makes it a real one, as opposed to just you know, a book or something like that. And so this magical thing happens in the story then becomes kind of panoramic. Looking at different characters all around the world, and how they're relating to it joyfully, or, or carefully and trying to end wrestling with it in various different ways. And finally, it's fine. I'll tell you the original version of this and then I changed it in a way that I think you'll like, the original version. So the so the story ends, there's this again, another closeted figure who was praying ardently and and to God, to have this verse removed from the Torah, like just just make it disappear. And then I can be fully faithful and serve you he wants to have that religious slash spiritual life, but he feels shut out from it. And in the original version like that, that prayer raises up it rises up to heaven, and that's that's what accomplishes this deed, but I just didn't like that enough. And so the current the current version, as you know, has this like radical fairy pagan ritual. It's not named as radical fairies, but it's obviously based on the Beltane ritual and radical fairies sanctuary, obviously, to those who know what that is, and yeah, there are people are dancing around the maypole, and some are naked and some are, you know, in some kind of orgiastic expression or something. And it's the combination the union, I would say, the sexual union of that sort of earth energy channeled up through the goddess and pardon me for being a little heteronormative here but she didn't let that Goddess Energy uniting with the male god energy of the of that person praying and it's that magic, the earth magic meeting the sky that affects this magical transformation. And that for me felt more. Yeah, that's the ending I wanted.
Wil Fisher 37:34
was so juicy. Thank you. Yeah, we even got it. We even got it to a description of the drag to they were Ray That's right, boobs and leather and jewels. I
Jay 37:45
love when readers read stuff and pick up the different that like, you know, I don't know what other readers are going to hone in on the drag. But of course you would that's just love that.
Wil Fisher 37:58
Ya know, that lit me up and actually really took me right back to moments that I've experienced with you around the maypole rituals. And I'm curious, you know, going down that that little rabbit hole for a bit, how has your experience of radical fairy rituals and being in that space and, and perhaps we'll, we'll throw Burning Man into this umbrella to these spaces of radical self expression and ritual opportunities? How have those spaces impacted your spirituality and the way that you commune with with spirit?
Jay 38:42
Thanks for asking that question. The short answer is profoundly. But I think one thing that I've noticed in my work is like I've written a lot about Judaism, and I've written a lot about Buddhism is are two of the three spiritual traditions that are really my root traditions. And I have not written or done as much with what I would loosely group as earth based religious tradition, some I call them pagan, which is fine, I'm fine with that, that term, or, you know, whatever we you know, and so for radical fairy stuff for the spiritual sides of Burning Man. Also, in closer to the Jewish tradition, you know, there's all kinds of earth based Judaism that's focused on the shamanic also psychedelics, I've lately just I actually have a new because I collect title Sinoma I'm affiliated now with the end Emory center for psychedelics and spirituality and doing sort of scholarly work on that intersection. And you know, it's as I have, I think, it's no coincidence that like, as I've settled into a little bit more of a householder lifestyle, you know, with our with the literally having a house and having a kid and, you know, living that life. There's I really felt like there was something missing in the way my writing is or isn't reflecting my own spirituality. And this book is by far the most pagan by far the most psychedelic, by far the juiciest and magic oriented of anything I've written. And I think on the surface, it may appear, it's not very Buddhist, which is fine, that's fine. There's, on the surface, it may appear very Jewish. But and then it is I'm not running away from that. But there is like, this constant current and most of the stories of, you know, of the real of the earth of, of the four elements in this body of the body, sometimes intention with sometimes in union with whatever we call the spirit. And so that, for me was like, I think there's more work I want to do. In that, you know, there's also like, a lot of smart people. And a lot of smart queer people have already done a lot of interesting writing, and like, I'm mostly thinking of in terms of writing, because I mean, I do a lot of visual art, music and whatever, but like, words are, where my where I'm at. And so I'm struggling, I've been struggling to like, what's to find, like, what's my contribution, but this was one at this intersection of queerness, paganism, and Jewish mysticism. There's not a lot at that particular corner. And that's the corner where I live, and it felt like there was, you know, this segues back to stuff again, I'm sure you tell your clients all the time that like, and Rick Rubin tells his clients all the time, right, that, you know, creativity is like, expressing this unique, like, what's my unique voice. And I really felt like I found a part of my voice that I hadn't been using, with this, you know, with this work with this book. And so I love that I didn't even answer the question after saying I loved it. But, you know, for me, to answer the question, not about the book, it's just been an essential piece of the of this, and it's weird to have, I like that I have these three as opposed to two because binaries kind of suck. And so at least I have the multiplicity. But, you know, all three for me interrelate mean for me a spirituality, even forms of Buddhism, even American Buddhism, can be a little down on the body sometimes, you know, and that, for me, just doesn't reach my experience of the spiritual. I mean, one of my most profound experiences, gosh, when was that 2003 or four, somewhere like that, like, almost 20 years ago, was in body electric, right, which, you know, we know you and I know, well, listeners may not combining erotic massage and breathwork. And sometimes with a very clear kind of spiritual intention, sometimes with an intention of healing, not those are different. But you know, and there are a lot of intentions one could have, for me, it was feeling at the same kind of closeness to the sacred, in that experience, as I had felt, at some of my peak experiences on silent meditation retreats. And it was like, different but similar, you know, but it was like coming home, in this very embodied way, to an experience that I'd previously had, you know, just in like, after five or six days of silent meditation, and I was crying on the table, I, you know, there's a lot of crying on those tables and body lecture. And, but for me, it was a it was that healing, that it wasn't like, you know, for me, again, this was 20 years ago, so a lot, a different point in my journey, it wasn't like, accommodating, you know, I wrote this book God versus gay, it wasn't like accommodating God and gay. It was like, seeing that they're on the same team that that like that our full expression as, as sexual beings, contributes to and is informed by an enriches our full expression as spiritual beings. Like, it wasn't like, well, I have this and I also have that and somehow direct people often even now, like when I get booked to do some LGBT stuff, like it's like reconciling religion and sexuality and if that's the framework, people are at fine, that's fine, but that's not you know, it's not like reconciling it's like these are the two ingredients two of the ingredients in the stew and one without the other feels out of balance for me so like, it's not only sex, it's also nature it's also the earth it's also the body and its pleasure. Now this is what what I have school learned from the radical fairies Burning Man Body Electric and Easton mountain where we used to we used to teach together and yeah, I'm just so grateful for the and it's been a while since that was like the growing edge. You know, there's always edges I think, right? But like, but that yeah, I've like I said, I feel like that part of me has been absent from some of my artistic work. And so it feels really good to have it out. In this in this new collection.
Wil Fisher 44:43
Yeah. And it is wonderful to receive it and I'm excited that it from that answer. It sounds like this is the beginning of more of that and I want to celebrate and wish for more of that because it is it is juicy and is particularly It's particularly a lens that I really resonate with this Buddhist mystical Jewish birth base paganism but all through a queer lens. It's unique and and exciting and juicy. And it definitely lights me up.
Jay 45:17
Thank you so much. Yeah, that's, that feels great. Thank you. Yeah,
Wil Fisher 45:20
some more please, More, please.
Jay 45:22
It's funny on the unlike the pole, seemingly polar opposite, but I'm gonna bring it together. You know, I have this journalism career. And last night, I was on TV talking about a ridiculous moment in the Congress that happened where like, there was a US senator and a witness in a hearing because the head of the teamsters union, and they almost came to blows, literally, like they the teamsters guy had trash talk, the Senator on Twitter, like a few months ago, they hate each other for a long time. And like, meanwhile, in the background, is this whole important clash about capitalism, because the senator as a business owner, and as a multimillionaire, probably worth about $75 million, and the teamsters guys like you're a corrupt boss, you know, Fu, et cetera, et cetera. And it literally these two men grown men, one of them is a senator, the other is the president of the most powerful union, or one of most powerful unions in the country. We're like, schoolyard children. And for me, it was just this moment of like, totally just dysfunctional masculinity. I feel like the phrase toxic masculinity is like, almost dead. It's been so overused. This was just like pathetic masculinity. Right? It was literally and the phrase that he used was like, he's like, he said, the senator said to the, to the other guy, like, you know, you you said you anytime, anywhere, anytime, anyplace, well, this is a time this is a place, let's go right now. The other guy goes, you want to go right now? And the Senator is like, yes, stand your butt up, like get out of the chair. And then the other guy says, you stand your butt up. This is verbatim because I was just on the news. Like that. And, you know, it's funny, like we're talking like it just it's like the wound. And this just the the inability to, like, see sexuality as anything other than this, like penis domination, control, power, fight the other dude. And, you know, obviously, American masculinity is in a kind of crisis right now. That's why there's been this rise of like, crazy, hyper masculine, you know, often racially, you know, people, whether it's Trump, or whether I forget that guy's name is in jail, and Romania, or Jordan Peterson or others, like, there's this, like, rise in toxic masculinity as a response to this gender crisis, where there's liberation of women liberation of queer people, and it's like, so it's funny, like, what we were just talking about, was like, cool, like the best like my, our favorite forms of spirituality. And yet, for me, it's like, juxtaposed with like, here's this example of what happens when you don't have that integration. Hmm.
Wil Fisher 47:50
Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you can chat about that stuff on CNN last night, and then come here and talk about the stuff plus jobs and blow jobs in hot tubs.
Jay 48:07
That was you for the record. That was right wing haters of Jay who set up? I feel like they're gonna need to go like way into the deep research. You know, if I ever get like, infamous enough, nobody, like we found willfully living.
Wil Fisher 48:24
A tough talk, I imagine.
Jay 48:26
Well, I kept my clothes on for that one. That's where I was actually more sensitive to my haters. That was right after God versus gay. And that book was like, meant to be a kind of mainstream book. And I did have haters, right, who were trying to like devalue. And I was like, I just don't want to be like naked in the hot tub on YouTube. Even with the bubbles on now that I know this history of you in hot tubs, you know, maybe that was
Wil Fisher 48:55
it. mikvah No. Well, Jay, as we wrap things up any final words of wisdom you want to share with the listener?
Jay 49:07
This was super. I am, I guess, trash should try to do some marketing, which is that I did launch a new sub sect newsletter recently. Yes. Jay michaelson.substack.com. But you could just Google me and substack. And it's a lot. It's it's a lot about the intersection of politics and spirituality. So it's like this publication and just like, we're that little, that little rant, I just went on, you know, where we see what looks like a kind of political moment, but I think actually is deeply connected to some spiritual failings and opportunities for growth if we wanted to put it positively. And so I'm excited about that. And the book. I think, by the time this drops will be out, it's been published December 5 2023. And I'm just very excited about having it a little nervous to I'm not sure like, how, you know, the sex scenes in the mcfa Wherever ever we'll go over with some of my you know, fans, but it feels it feels a little way like yet another coming out to be able to share this side with a wider audience. Wow.
Wil Fisher 50:09
Well, thanks for your courage. Thanks. Yeah. And I'll have all that in the show notes so people can easily access that. And yeah, Jay, this has been a total pleasure. And I'm just so grateful to know you.
Jay 50:22
Thank you so much. Well, likewise. Wow, I
Wil Fisher 50:25
hope you all enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Please do check the show notes to get a copy of Jays new book and subscribe to his newsletter and learn more about his work. You'll also see info there to connect with me in case you want to learn more about the work I do as a spiritual life coach. And if you're enjoying this show, a gift you can give me this season of giving is a five star review. Happy Holidays my beloved's oh my god is Beloved's. What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay. And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace
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