Getting Good with Grief (and Joy!) with Moe Ari and Tiffany

I loved being in conversation with these two amazing people!

 Moe Ari (they/he) is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, The Love and Connection Expert at Hinge, a TEDx Speaker, a Board Member for It Gets Better Project, a published academic writer, and a Leading Expert in Transgender Mental Health. He also identifies as Transgender. He's been featured in magazines and news outlets throughout the US, UK, and Australia for his expertise in Transgender identity, love, and relationships

 Tiffany (she/her) is a ç, public speaker, and femme-powerment coach! She is the founder of Birthing The Empress Within, a platform she is developing to help women nurture themselves as they go through the journey of motherhood. Tiffany is also a brand partner for the Irth app, a tech company dedicated to equity in Black Maternal Health.

 Our drag avatars kickstart us into a conversation about dancing with shadow and light, inspiring me to share a dream I had the night before the interview about a jaguar picking me up gently in it’s teeth. 

 We move onto to discuss how Tiffany, as a post-partum birth duala - sees birth from a spiritual perspective. She acknowledges the incredible Right of passage that occurs not just for the baby and it’s mom, but for everyone connected to a new child coming into the world. 

 Moe then shares about how shadow work is not just working with what traumas from the past- but it’s looking at the shadows as they are showing up in the present moment. 

He also talks about the shadow work that surfaced during his gender transition. And specifically, we talk about grieving our lost identities as we evolve into new versions of ourselves. 

 This brings in the idea of being in good relationship with grief and other challenging emotions- and recognizing that grief can actually call-in gratitude. 

 Moe then shares how he see shis being transgender as an invitation for people to see others beyond their physical form and we talk about slaying limitations. 

 We then get into what spiritual lessons they are learning from raising their 3-year old daughter.

 We chat about the journey of reclaiming spirituality after growing up in traditional religious background and coming out of the closet as spiritual

 And we end with an invitation into one ness and love. <3

Check out their Be Your Own Love Goals Podcast here:
 https://pod.link/1621380464

My upcoming retreat Awakened Hearts-
https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/events#hearts-alive

Transcript

Wil Fisher  0:00  
Queerly Beloved, We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and clearly spiritual. I'm Sylvia will gather rainbow, spiritual life coach retreat hosts with the most, and drag queens, and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks are simply sharing some wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wound together in this spiritually queer a cosmic container

Hello Beloved's. And welcome back to another episode of queerly. Beloved, I'm so excited to share this one. You know, every time I make these little intros, I go back and rewatch the interviews. And this time when I did, it brought me right back to the joy I experienced being in flow with these two incredible guests, Mo Ari, and Tiffany and also I recognize the deep wisdom that came through. And so I'm so excited to share it with you today. So let me tell you more about them. So Moe Ari is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. They are the love and connection expert at hinge. He's a TEDx speaker, a board member for a Gets Better Project, a publish academic writer and a leading expert in transgender mental health. He identifies as transgender and he's been featured in magazines and news outlets around the world for his expertise as transgender identity, love and relationships. Tiffany is a public speaker and empowerment coach. She's the founder of birthing the Empress within a platform she's developing to help women nurture themselves as they go through the journey of motherhood. Tiffany is also a brand partner for the IR T H app, a tech company dedicated to equity and black maternal health. And the two of them are life partners and also partners in their podcast the Be Your Own love goals, which you should totally check out. So in this interview, we start by talking with Tiffany about her work as a postpartum birth, doula, and how she sees birth from a spiritual perspective. And this inspires us to acknowledge the incredible rite of passage that occurs not just for the baby and its new mom. But for everyone connected to this new child coming into the world. Moe then shares about his shadow work, and the shadow work that is not just looking at the traumas from the past, but looking at how the shadows are showing up in the present moment. And he goes on to share about the shadow work that surfaced during his gender transition. And specifically, we talked about grieving our loss identities as we evolve into new versions of ourselves, which brings in the idea of being in good relationship with grief and other challenging emotions. And recognizing that grief can actually call in gratitude, most shares how he sees his being transgender, as an invitation for people to see others beyond their physical form. And we also talked about slaying limitations, we then get into what spiritual lessons they're both learning in raising their incredible three year old daughter, and we chat about the journey of reclaiming spirituality after growing up in traditional religious backgrounds, and coming out of the closet as spiritual. All these topics and many more in this exciting interview. Enjoy. Right welcome Tiffany and lo to queerly. Beloved, so happy to have you on the show today. How are ya?

Moe  3:17  
Thank you so much for having a cue. We're

Tiffany  3:20  
excited,

Wil Fisher  3:21  
right? Ah, yeah, it's been such a delight already getting to know you both. And I'm excited to drop in further. So as I mentioned, before we hit record, my opening question is to tell me who you are, to tell me in this moment, who you are in this moment, in particular, in this part of your life on this day, but tell me by describing a drag avatar that embodies that. And as I mentioned, I can go first to give you guys a second to think about it. Mm hmm. So let's see. Often I find inspiration from what I'm already wearing, because I feel like when I'm dressing myself, I am tuning into that like who am I today and I'm kind of like finding stuff that is going to help express that and help me connect more with that. And so today, I felt really drawn to this this light blue cashmere sweater. And so I am feeling like this softness in my heart and in my presence and sort of feeling into the vibes of the cozy winter time. You know, the holiday season I was telling you all that I'm going to be hanging out with my nephew this afternoon and there's something so cozy and sweet about that. And so my drag avatar is like this cozy fairy princess she's like, just like so sweet. And she's always you know, kind of ready to just lie on a soft pillow and just kind of like be there with you and kind of like perch up and she is wearing cashmere you know, in this case, it's like a cashmere dress though it goes all the way down to her ankles and she's like barefoot with beautiful like light blue nail polish and just, you know, super sweet and she even when she comes into the room, she just makes people feel warm. So that's that's the drag avatar that that represents me right now. Love it.

Tiffany  5:25  
Love. All right, which of us ready to go? You ready? Oh, I'll go. So this morning, I actually was recorded a podcast all about maternal health. And so I am a doula

in outside of being a podcast host. And so my drag avatar today feels like what I call an Earth Mother Goddess. And so it was very much not in traditional white today. So she might be wearing some bright pink and some bright green, but very much in flow with earth and nature and spirits. I am wearing my amethyst. It's in the shape of a pregnant person. So I am wearing that today. It's all filling love and connection to creativity and birth. So is giving a bright pink and green earth mother got it.

Wil Fisher  6:33  
Feel it her? Yes.

Moe  6:38  
These were so good. I'm like judging mine. You know, pressure. It's perfect. Perfect.

Wil Fisher  6:45  
Yeah.

Moe  6:45  
So hi, everybody. I'm Aubrey. I am here with my lovely wife, Tiffany. I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And currently the love and connection expert, a hinge. So a lot of the work I do is around helping people to build lasting partnerships and really connect with love in a way that's authentic to them. In that journey, I found that it's a real healing journey. So if I was tapping into my drag persona today, I think it's something like a Shadow Queen. Now shake queen, those are two different things. Shadow Queen, Shadow Warrior. I think for me, a lot of my journey was having to go into spaces that I didn't really want to go spaces inside of myself or spaces externally, in order to to understand myself better. So I'm really connected to that today. This these shadow spaces in my story that brought me pain, but also taught me so much about my gifts and my authenticity, or the spaces in my life that maybe have challenged me or brought me a significant amount of grief, and also broke my heart wide open to receive even more love. So I think the shadow is this necessary space, that kind of dance in or the lightning is not really scary. It's just like the unconscious or what is hidden. And I like to invite people into that space in my work and I definitely say in our relationship to the contents of the light so that there is not this need to hide that we get to fully be seen so that we can be loved unconditionally. So I'd say I'm like the Shadow Queen.

Wil Fisher  8:46  
For distinction, yeah, I love that. And it's interesting. You know, I started off saying that mine was a little inspired by my light blue cashmere sweater that I'm wearing today. And then Tiffany we had your hot pink and bright green pop in Earth Mother Goddess which you've got that beautiful sweater on today. And then I see for you mo you've got this black and white sweater going you know which I see in that this shadow and light you know, the way that those two get to dance together and I do feel like there is power in rather than being in fear of shadow. And feeling like that is something we need to resist and hide from. It's like how can we embody the shadow Slayer the the Shadow Queen that is ready to move through it and to to face it and to in facing it illuminate and welcome the light. So there's something really powerful about that.

Tiffany  9:48  
Thank you for reflecting that back to me.

Wil Fisher  9:51  
Yeah, it's interesting. Just last night, I had a dream that was very much inviting me into some potential shadow Whoa, and into the unknown, where a Black Panther a Jaguar appeared. And I had prayed the night before, which is not something I typically do, or this particular prayer, praying for guides to show up in my dreams. Yes. And this Jaguar shows up and I was like, Okay, I believe that guy. And this Jaguar was fierce. And I was scared of it at first, but then I gave it some food. And it was kind of like, like, started to cuddle with me and receive like, pets from me. But then I was like, Okay, this is nice, but I think I'm ready to go. It feels a little dangerous. And then it did that thing that like a mama dog or cat does, where it kind of like, grabs part of your skin without piercing. And it just grabbed my skin and was like, No, you're staying here. You're staying with me? Yeah. And yeah, the invitation for me was to, to recognize that the power and the value of being in that shadow space being in that unknown space. And that, yes, it could be a little, it can be scary. And there's, there's value in it. And so I just stayed with the Jaguar and then like it released me and I was able to pet it and cuddle it a little bit. And then it turned into another animal in that I left and so yeah, it's interesting these themes coming up. Wow. Yeah, thanks for thanks for giving me the space to share that. So I let's let's play with both of these. These introductions. And I think you know, since Tiffany, you started and you were really calling in this Mother Earth doula earth goddess woman. I'd love to hear more about your work as a as a doula post postpartum doula, right? And what that word means to you from a spiritual perspective.

Tiffany  11:53  
Mm hmm. Good question. It really great question. So I believe that birthing, maternal and Perinatal health is extremely, is one of the most beautiful processes. And I think that it's extremely spiritual. And I think in a lot of context, the spiritual nature of it gets lost. And so my work as a postpartum doula doula, particularly in my practice, is to connect birthing people to that spiritual connection that includes grounding, that includes meditation that includes creating, and subscribing to rituals that resonate with you, whether that's in the delivery room, or whether that's after the fact or whether that's throughout the pregnancy. And so, because I believe that birthing is like one of the greatest rites of passage of all time, I believe that birthing people are portals for life. So they're portals to bring these beings from spiritual world into this world. And so I think that there is a real sacred nature to that process to people that carry to people that are parents to people that are a part of that tribe. And so in my work, I really try to press upon people how beautiful and important it is that babies are born. But in that process, mothers are born fathers are born parents are born, community tribe, it's like so many people that are born in birth. And so, so much of that process is spiritual. It's like, a lot of times, there's no words to explain that. There's the intuition that guides us there. There is, you know, our ancestors wisdom that guides us. And I think we've gotten so far away from that. And so my work is to educate on some of these practices and traditions, encourage people to feel empowered, and to connect to their own intuition is simply put, like, as a new mom, as a new parent, you are the best person for the job, lean into your intuition, lean into what you know, and be guided by that. And so that's my work in a nutshell, but really the educating in the belief that it is a spiritual process, and we have to surrender to it in order to, in my opinion, in order to make the best of that experience.

Wil Fisher  14:30  
Beautiful. Wow. Yeah, I got chills. Just hearing that. I've never really considered that when a child is born. It isn't just a rite of passage for the parents and the child. But for everyone, right that Yeah. An uncle is born in that yes, grandfather's board and that process that is great transformation happens for everyone who is connected with this child, this new being and it's A beautiful piece to recognize that this child brings this gift of transformation, this gift of a, a passageway into something new for everybody for the community, as you mentioned, that's so powerful. I

Tiffany  15:17  
agree. I'm sitting with that. Like, I just love that. You said that. I don't know if you've said that in this way before. So I'm like, okay, making a mental note. It's a write that down later is powerful. I don't know how. Yeah,

yeah. So I, you know, during the pandemic, as I became a mom, I started birthing the Empress within. And so a lot of it surrounds this work is that as I became a mother, as I birthed Nova into the world, Tiffany was born as well, a different version of me, and I call her imprints. And so she was born through that process. So I had to, like, take care of her, nurture her, feed her nurse her, like, do all the things that, you know, I was doing for nothing that the people around me were doing for Nova. And so I'm recognizing that so many different things. And people are burst through the birthing process, even not just the baby. And so I think that's where my work is right now, just illuminating that. So people

Wil Fisher  16:21  
beautiful that illumination feels so important and valuable. And in illuminating it and acknowledging it and honoring it, we're able to step into it more fully, we're able to be with it in a in a more intentional, more mindful, more powerful way. And I see that in as a parallel to, to your acknowledgement, that, that birthing and parenting is a spiritual process, a spiritual journey. And, and it is like, it is spiritual, no matter what, in my opinion, whether we call it spiritual or not, it's spiritual. So for the the most, you know, staunch atheist, it's still spiritual. And when we acknowledge it, as spiritual, we give it power in the spirit realm. And in so doing, were able to receive more of the support and blessings and guidance and love from the spirit realm. That's what I was kind of tapping into, as you were saying, how you bring that into the light. And in so doing, the parents are able to receive the support that can come from that acknowledgement. Yeah,

Tiffany  17:31  
absolutely. Absolutely.

Wil Fisher  17:35  
Powerful work. Yeah. I'm curious, what helps you in that work? What helps you be a grounded Earth Mother Goddess that's able to support some of the I'm sure, so many fears and shadows that are illuminated through the process? Yeah,

Tiffany  17:54  
I think the surrender is a big part of it. So in the moments that I've noticed, I've resisted doing the shadow work that I can sometimes be afraid of. I am called back into that work. And so, you know, in my own process of being a mother, I had to do things like examine my own relationship with my mother, or examine relationships with other people that in my life that might encourage or prevent how I showed up as a mother. And so having to go to, to the depths of potential pain, or those experiences come face to face with my own grief. And on a daily, more practical way, I think it's finding ways to ground so that I am showing up as the best version of myself so that I can support other people. And so I think that's constantly evolving. It's one that I have to choose to do every single day, because it can be very ungrounded at times. So I think it's being creative about what that looks like, if that's taking a walk. If that's journaling, if it's waking up at 5am, just trying to find ways to do that on a daily basis. And then more big picture in general is like surrendering to the process.

Wil Fisher  19:14  
Yeah, makes a lot of sense that grounding is such an important piece to it. And especially as we consider that the birth process is giving birth to so many new transformations, so many rites of passage. There's uncertainty that comes with every rite of passage uncertainty that comes with every piece of transformation. So when we think about it, on this ripple effect way, that's a lot of uncertainty. And so the more grounded that everyone in that process can be, the more we're able to hold that up. And of course, you being sort of the one of the pillars or the pillar, yeah. That is holding that space is beautiful.

Tiffany  19:53  
Yeah, it is. Thank you so much for mirroring that

Wil Fisher  19:56  
that. Yeah. My pleasure. It's an honor. So Oh, yeah, well, why don't we move to some of your shadow stuff? Because we just I'm curious to hear, you know, as the shadow Slayer, what has served you? Or actually why don't we start with some of the shadows that you can recognize you've moved through? Are some of the ones that are your your most fierce competitors? Or let's call it dance partners in this new paradigm. Yeah,

Moe  20:33  
you know, so interesting, I think, one, I love that you started us out with where we are in space and time now. Because I think there's, there's just power or to like the present moment. And a lot of times when I wanted to approach this shadow work, I was thinking past, like, I'm going into the past, and we're like, in, I think it can be disconnecting it from it can, that kind of thinking could disconnect me from how the shadow is showing up in the present moment. So it's really important to stay present in that work. That was one of my biggest lessons that I'm not always just looking at some childhood stuff. There are many ways in which these things are showing up now. So whether you figure out the root of that thing, or where that thing started, not necessarily necessary. Some people don't have memories of the traumas that they experience. But you know, what's happening in the present moment. And you know, it's not aligned with how you're trying to live your life. So there were many moments where I was realizing, throughout my journey, that I had some type of traumatic experiences that were showing up and impacting my present moment. So I'll say that that I have some, quite a few significant experiences of trauma that I had to like, deal with throughout the past, I would say 10 to 15 years. And then how I was showing up in my present moment how I was impacting my ability to connect with other people that might be impacting the anxiety or fears I had, or my fears around being seen or very visible to people. So I'll say that. And then I've gone through the journey of gender transition, I'll say, most of you will say they're always in transition, I will say that to varying degrees, we're kind of like always on the move somewhere. But in terms of gender transition, I've done a lot of the medical process around that, that it looks different for different people. But for myself, I'm pretty content with where I am in that process. But I will say that that brought up a lot of grief. So much of my life being lived as a person assigned female at birth, and being socialized in that way. And then making the decision to to be in gender transition in my 20s radically changed how people were interacting with me. They weren't seeing like a woman getting on the elevator, they're now seeing this black man. So you know, I'm starting to interface with systems of power and oppression that I hadn't met experiencing prior to that. So getting stopped by the police was not really a thing when I was cute wearing miniskirts in my 20s. But like, getting stopped now raises the level of fear inside of me or suspicion that I had to like reckon with. There are so many. There were so many moments in my gender transition where I realized, oh, there's this grief setting in. And I think grief has probably been one of the largest shadows I've had to contend with. Because I have this tendency to stuff things down and not want to deal with it. But there has been quite a bit of pain I've had to sit with and then that pain also being invitations or opportunities for me to realize, Oh, you want more connection? Oh, you actually do need support in ways you don't. So I tried to sit with the pain and understand from the pain was trying to tell me that it wasn't my initial inclination to do that. I just learned that along the way. So yeah, that's like the brief overall as brief as that could be about that.

Wil Fisher  24:33  
Yeah, so beautiful. And it's interesting. As we shifted the the paradigm of the the shadow you want to slay to the shadow to dance where that can be a similar shift with our, you know, seemingly negative emotions of grief of pain, that rather than wanting to push them away or kill them, it's like what can I learn from them? Like how can I be with you in a more loving way? and give you space to teach me what I meant to learn in this experience. And, and, and ultimately yes to be released right to release and heal that part of you. And I know from my experience more recently, I sometimes experience grief in these waves that come unexpectedly. And in the past, it's been more like, Oh, I'm sad because of blank. And now it's like, I sometimes just feel sad. And it's like, Oh, I feel sad. And I go feel sad. And I have like, a playlist that I use, that'll help me like, move it, you know, let the sadness move, right. I think I like to think of emotion is energy in motion. And so it's my job sometimes just to give it the space to move for that energy to move. Yeah. But yeah, it's so important to be in good relationship with grief. Yeah.

Moe  25:58  
Yeah. And I think that that's what you just said, so powerful, that good relationship with it. I think it's often so when we think about the lifecycle, it's easy. Some might say, I won't say typically wouldn't say, some might say that it's easy to think about birth, as in like life. But when we think about grief, we think about loss. So we think about death. So it's easy to be in the birthing process of something new is emerging that springtime in life, like there's something that is forming, there's something being created, when there are things that are passing away, there are things that no longer serve you that you have to release from your life, there are people physically passing away whatever grief, or whatever form grief takes. That is the hard part to contend with. But like you said, getting good with our relationship to the whole of that lifecycle. That's what I think, is significantly changed my reality, because I realized it just as Tiffany was talking about birthing myself as a father, in the process of us having our first child, I was also kind of birthing myself as a transgender person. So my identity was shifting kind of in a parallel. So there were many creation processes happening, but there is so much grief, even in the birth process. You're no longer a single person. You're no longer like, a couple, a family. That's grief, like we don't go out on Friday nights.

Wil Fisher  27:41  
That's real. And it's such an interesting dichotomy, because it feels like oh, yeah, but it's a happy thing. Yes, it's a happy thing. And there's something sad too, and it doesn't mean that, that this was better. And I should have done this. It's like, Yes, this is the direction I want to move in. And there's still sadness that I'm letting go of this. And things that you know, even I, my relationship with alcohol has changed a lot in the last year. And there, I feel great that I consume less alcohol, and I'm more mindful with it right now. I'm not consuming any but there's a part of me that's like, sad for the part of me that really enjoyed this alcohol. Absolutely, it's okay to feel that it's okay. That there's sadness anytime we lose something, even if it's for our greatest sin is good. And that we can be with both of those things at the same time, the joy of What's New, while we're also holding the sadness of what is lost. Yeah,

Moe  28:46  
yeah, they both can exist in the present to your earlier point. I think that that is, that's been one of my greatest lessons. It's not like those Friday nights dancing, we're just in the past that memory and that feeling is alive inside of me. That's why I feel the grief. Because grief really is this call toward gratitude. I am happy for those moments, I experienced that. But I'm not allowing myself to feel that happiness because I have I am telling myself, no in order to be present, and to be happy about your child, you cannot be feeling gratitude for those party for sure. So the so what you're saying getting good with grief, for me that has looked like allowing myself the memory, allowing memory to exist in the present moment. So not like this imagination of the past, like those Friday nights are right here in this moment with right in my heart, and I get to have that. And I get to enjoy dancing around my living room with my daughter.

Wil Fisher  29:49  
Yes, yes. And then we don't have to feel this sense of longing or loss for what was in the past. It's like no, that's still here. That's Yeah,

Tiffany  30:00  
and I was just gonna add that I think so much of getting good with grief is getting killed with joy. Because oftentimes I know, I've experienced the feelings of great joy. And then I'm sitting with a friend who's experiencing great grief, right? And I'm like, Well, how can I be in my joy if they're experienced this experiencing this level of sadness and loss, and I think it's honoring their grief, also honoring my joy. But if I am not able to honor the joy, I might be feeling sitting with my friend, or even the duality that might be inside of me, I'm never gonna be able to fully have a relationship with grief that will serve my highest good. That's one of the greatest lessons I've learned. Like, if I shut out this grief, I'm also shutting out this pleasure in this joy. Good with both of them. Because

they're like this. From that, like, you're getting at this, when we're talking about the light and shadow like, it's like, you can't first of all, you can't have shadows without the light like, so. If we, like spotlight a light on us right now. There'll be a big shadow on the wall. It's like, it's because of what you're talking about that joy is what is being activated to cause the grief. We know we are so happy because of our experiences of what was that we're feeling grief about the potential loss. But the truth is that we haven't lost it. It's just, it's only changed in form.

Wil Fisher  31:37  
Yeah, has Oh, so good. Okay, I'm

Tiffany  31:42  
gonna be quiet. So good. I really loved what you were saying about getting good with grief.

Wil Fisher  31:50  
Yeah, we've got our podcast episode title. So moving back to your story of transition, I'd love for you, as I asked Tiffany, about seeing it through a spiritual lens. I love seeing being a doula through that lens, I'd love for you to share a little bit about how that is for you to look at your transition period through a spiritual lens, perhaps also noting how spirit served you through that transition, if that was part of your experience. Yeah,

Tiffany  32:23  
you know, it was important for me to accept that my physical embodiment is one thing, and who I am as a soul being something separate. They're together working together in this lifetime. But this physical embodiment is not me. It is the vessel for which I do the work. And so I think, when I am facing criticism, or bullying online, or somebody is like, I don't agree with this, or that they're not talking about me, they're talking about something that's like, they're talking about my physical form. And that's very different than who I am as a soul or an entity. So I had to get really good with my own relationship to myself, to understand the work that I came here to do, why it's been important for me to be transgender in this lifetime. And, you know, I still think I'm working out my philosophy on that I don't like to offer people a, they have to go on their own journey of figuring out what that means for them. But for me, being transgender has been about encouraging people to see me beyond my physical form. I think sometimes these categories like man, woman, prevent people from seeing someone be on that body, we see somebody with a vagina, for instance, and we say, well, you should only be able to make this money, this much money, you should not really have rights over your body. Up until a certain period of time, women couldn't have bank accounts like this, and this has gone on for the beginning of time. If you if you don't have a vagina, then you get to run corporations and you said be the head of the household and you know one word, and I think sometimes that prevent that has a lot of side has prevented people from seeing an individual's real capacity, their real gifts, their real inspirations and talent. I'll tell you a really short story. Yeah, no, I'm done. I will be quite great. Our daughter has been pretty obsessed with becoming a doctor. And so she's been asking for like Doctor skates and things like that. So her grandparents being grandparents. Were like, okay, we're getting her doctor skate. So the doctors can arise and it's a it's actually on the boxes as nurses Kay but we know she loves pink. So we ordered the pink they ordered the pink one but they were like we we thought was a doctor's kit. The pink one is a nurse's kit. Oh, well, what was which one was the doctor's kit, of course, it's the blue one. Oh, surgery tools, it has everything to become a Okar surgeon, and the nurses kit has like the thermometer and the A's. And, and there's nothing wrong with being a nurse. It was not meant to be a doctor. Yeah, she heard us talking about how it said nurse and she starts saying, Nurse No, but after she'd been saying doctor Nova all we would like memo, we put new names on everything, we put pictures of women doctors, I say tried to correct this. But this is an example of how society and how it's structured sometimes prevents us from being able to see the soul of a person there. She wants to be a doctor and she's telling us my gifts or or my inclinations are this. We shouldn't deny her that. And I think that's growing up as a woman. And so much of my life was about limitations, what you couldn't do, I grew up with like four older brothers, and I wanted to be outside playing basketball with them. But girls are not supposed to do that. I want it to be spinning outside. Because I saw them doing that they're like, do that. It's all about a limitation if felt limiting to my soul. And I still think I'm coming from I'm coming out of those limitations. Still, I'm still trying to pass them. But yeah, so I'll stop there.

Wil Fisher  36:28  
Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful point. Right, right there is that you? And I'd say we, I'd say humans, most humans are always coming out of those limitations, right. And that when we're on this journey of spiritual expansion, that's what so much of this work is about is that we have these limitations that have been placed on us from this physical realm with these social pressures to conform. And when we get closer to the truth and an expression of that truth of who we are, and how we are meant to show up in this world, that we have to slay those limitations, we have to keep moving past them so that our full light can be illuminated, is in my consideration? It's a lifelong journey.

Tiffany  37:18  
Yeah, absolutely. It is. Absolutely.

Wil Fisher  37:23  
I know it. So yeah, go ahead. As

Tiffany  37:25  
I say, especially because of where we're starting from. I think certainly, in our generation, it's gonna be a lifelong journey. My hope that day, right? The starting place is just so different. Yeah.

Wil Fisher  37:38  
Well, and we even see in the novice story that your child has the added benefit of parents who are going to help Slay those limitations for her behalf. Right. And that's beautiful gift. And so yeah, the more that folks are becoming conscious, and on a large scale, hopefully that's going to set our young people the next generations. So like sticking with the Nova theme, I was telling Tiffany that I saw that Instagram video of her receiving those cards, and I just my heart totally melted and I fell in love with her in a 32nd Instagram reel. I loved what she was like unique. That's my favorite one. Just love. I so I love your daughter. And I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts or stories to share about how raising her has has taught you what spiritual lessons or personal growth lessons you've derived from being with this beautiful being as she comes into her own?

Tiffany  38:47  
Yes, we have 1000 Tiffany stars.

I think for me, she is like, first of all, she's amazing. And she's my kids. So I'm probably biased for saying that but she is. She is the direct. She reminds me so much of all she calls me into my own inner child and not necessarily that she's like my mini me or my twin. But her being in her innocence, her joy. Her laughter calls me into what was a little Tiffany like how did how would I have shown up in this way and when I really sit and I'm intentional about those moments. I really do connect back to you know that five year old that was just wide eyed and just amazed and inquisitive about everything and watching her it particularly watching her interactions with my own parents. I'm like, wow, this is deeply healing. Wow, this is is, this is literally, my inner child being called into, you know, these lost parts of myself, you know, I'm able to reconnect with clay, you know, you cannot have a three year old without running more than you ever have getting down on the floor and just literally playing and being and having fun, you know, those trips to the Children's Museum where I probably would just want to sit on the bench and watch her play. I'm being called to like, go into the ball pit and play with her. And I might be a little resistant. But then the moment I'm like, wow, that was so fun. Like, I feel like a three year old and it's very, it's grounding. It's very connecting. And I marrying model was like one of the best days of my life and being with Nova and like the smiles and the laughter that we have as a family with her present is like, Oh my God, and if I keep talking about it, I'm probably gonna start crying. Very deeply, like, connecting experience to my own inner child and my play, enjoy that I think, for a lot of adults gets lost, you know, oh, I'm a parent, I gotta be serious, and I got to be responsible. And I have to take care of them. But so much of that care is connected to your inner child and connecting to play and connecting to fun. And so I wouldn't say that's one of the biggest lessons that I have learned continue to learn on a daily basis, with Nova even when I'm trying to put her down and she asked me like, 15 questions when I had the Okay, just, you know, this was probably you, you probably asked 20 questions. Oh,

Wil Fisher  41:54  
I love it. Yeah, thank you for sharing all that plays a huge part of my, my purpose in the world is to play and and so yeah, I love hearing that there's a speech I gave once a keynote for this gay men's retreat that was a about children as our spiritual gurus. And I just hit touched on all these things that we can learn from them from, like, play to, to, to self expression, to, you know, speaking our needs. There's just so many ways that these kids these little pure energies of light, they have got it right. And we can learn from it. Yeah. Yeah,

Tiffany  42:38  
I call know, the my greatest teacher also call her emotion was that I call her love emotion. Beautiful. And then I call myself student of love. So let's see is I just have to echo everything you said, I'm just gonna say did just that. So much of this journey really is about learning. Just learning. And it's interesting, too. I always pushed back when people we were pregnant with Nova when you were pregnant, I was a bystander. We were pregnant with Nova. And people would say, well, you, you know you're about to have to teach her so much. And now we'll be like, she's going to teach me Yeah, I felt that. And then seeing her here, she really just does do that all the time, call us into our higher selves. But literally like so if she if you tell her something she remembers. And so she watches everything that we do, and asked me to be way more accountable because I say things by impulse reaction, following through on my word, I have to be extremely intentional, because she's like watching and she's weary. Yeah, so people will say, her, we like she'll, there's the there are these videos of her she's taking photos of us. And she'll be like, Ah, I love you or ah, and people are like, she genuinely loves you all. They're like, she's mirroring this affirmation, because she gets that. Just, yeah, she's just called me into a greater walk in terms of being love. I always feel like a part of why I'm here is to try to kick past these human limitations around love and be some type of embodiment of love. And I think we all have this capacity to do that. But she's like, kind of pushing me to keep breaking past the barriers that want me to go like this. Some of the cringe factors like when we don't want to be vulnerable, and we just go like, she doesn't have that she's gonna tell you I love you three times. And now we're probably just gonna ask for 10 hugs.

Wil Fisher  45:03  
Thank you so much for sharing about that. And, yeah, so many blessings to know about this season and in her lifetime. So you're speaking of coming up against those limitations. When you are called to be a beacon of love. One of the things I'm curious to hear more about is what your path was, like, moving from your Christian backgrounds into a connection to spirituality that's separate, I imagined from the more traditional religious ideals.

Tiffany  45:38  
I don't know if it's my astrology, or our astrology. So like, I don't know if the stars aligned. But I kind of have always even in my Christian journey. I remember being a young kid, and I'm the youngest of six children. My mother is a reverend of the Christian Fae. She's gone to divinity school. So Christianity was like really present in our home. I remember having conversations, though, with her about the mysticism of the church. So the water to wine thing, that's magic to me, raising the dead, human sick people. I'm like, this is very meta. There's this spiritual, there is this. Mysticism beyond the ordinary, that I think often people ignore, in order to do this, like very regimented religiosity thing. Yeah. And so for me as a kid, I couldn't unsee it. So I was very zeroed in. So I remember having conversations, my mom like, I've been here before, where I'm like, I was like, I'm not from here. Like, this is not this not my, I remember being like seven and saying, like, I am not from here. She's like, you are not in her very Christian way. She's like, you are not of this world, you are just in this world, right? As a kid, I was very much like in tune with that. So I don't know if that was like that. But I've carried that with me my entire life, this curiosity about spirituality that goes beyond religious tradition, but who I am as like a soul. I'm really wanting to understand that from an early age.

Yeah, so I grew up in the South Baptist Church, very traditional. My parents weren't necessarily like steeped into the traditional church very much in the south, though you do it because everybody else does it. Right. Like we go to church, we go to Bible study. We're there maybe three times a week. And as I've gotten older, my dad is now a minister in the church. And as I began, you know, so much of my church family was my community in a small town like, you have you go to school with people, you go to church with people. So a lot of those people were people that were close to our families. And so as I grew into my own identity, as a woman, as a queer person, I was like, oh, something's lessons aren't adding up, like some of the things that you're saying, are not adding up, I don't really feel this unconditional love that you're describing. And so I was definitely that kid, or the one that would ask like, what is this? Like? What is this reality that we are? Where are we? And I've come to learn that that was me trying to make sense of this world and realizing there's probably more I don't really know what it is. Yeah. It never really gave me answers to it. We were oftentimes, you know, you don't question these things. Right? Yeah. So as I became more aware of my identity as Tiffany and as a queer person, I sought out my own journey of what spirituality, it to me and it's evolving, it continues to evolve. I had to go on my own journey, because I just believe that we are love. Yeah, and that's not what was always reflected to me. And so, you know, Moe and I, together have really explored a number of spiritual practices and ways to grounded connect over the past couple of years that have been totally life changing, and have evolved in so many different ways. And so I think, early on, I always had this leaning to wanting to know more wanting to get deeper not really feel like I had the space to do so. And so in a moment, when I'm in college, I'm like, Oh, let me go explore all this stuff. And so now I'm like, I'm in a place in which I've done this on social media. I came out of the spiritual closet. Yeah, yes. So say, you know, I was raised in the Baptist Church and I'm very much I'm a very spiritual person, and I'm not gonna hide it anymore. Yeah, I am not traditionally Christian. I still have a lot of the Christian traditions that I'm very near and dear to my heart. And I really like this tradition to I am just a spiritual mean, yeah.

Again those labels kind of limits our expansion into what spirituality looks like for us Yeah, connection, sometimes it's limited. Or that flow of energy you talked about sometimes constricted by these labels and those boxes. Because if you are saying you're a Christian, then people would not expect you to do any kind of like burning of sage, or any kind of ritual around intention setting for the new year. So or like, even, you know, there's this Pan African practice of whoring libations, for the ancestors, so you get a plant that's living, and you pour water into it. And we do that, like really important moments throughout the year to honor our ancestors. This is something that's specific to the black tradition. And you think that the black church would also there, it's like they have adopted it, but we don't talk about where that really comes from. Like, it's a Christian, it's not interesting kind of overlap, I think, especially for black people, because we have these very diasporic traditions from across all of like, African traditions, and we still incorporate them, but we don't talk about where that practice came from. And we talked about this pretty recently.

Wil Fisher  51:30  
Yeah, beautiful. And I think that it is so important for us spiritual and queer folks to come out of the spiritual closet, to to model that it is okay. And that it is a valuable, beautiful thing to be both queer and spiritual, because so many of our queer brothers and sisters and siblings are so damaged and hurt by the oppressive system of some of the traditional religions, that they have rejected spirituality. And so I just, I honor you both as people who are helping to hold light for the possibility of being queer and spiritual, and all the beauty that can come, all the blessings that can come in really embracing that and honoring that part of you.

Tiffany  52:17  
Thank you for saying that out loud. I think we are all so connected the thing that changed my life. At one day I had, I want to say it was probably 2020 2020 was a year, right, like for every one day, because we had started to work on a lot of these spiritual practices. So I will say it's going on five years. Now, by the way, you said a couple years, I think it's been about 390. So I'm sitting in my car, and I just had this realization, around our breath, I had been really sitting with the breath as a resource, why meditation is important, why breath is grounding. And I was like, you know, that same air that we breathe, it cycles out, somebody else breathes that in, they cycle it out, none of this air that's here, is like really separate from us. It's like, we're connected through our breath, connected beyond what we can, like, visibly see. So we're, like, infinitely connected. And when we think on a molecular level, there's just like space in between our molecules. There's not this real separation that we think there is, like really, when you think even if you have to, like think of like a man when he like, small and he's like between particles of matter, there is literally just space in space. So me being separate from Tiffany is just an illusion of my mind, these molecules only no space. There's no real separation and what I think about our breath and sharing that over and over again, throughout the world, I'm like we are not that we are not disconnected. That's more connected than we understand. And that became a part of my spiritual foundation. This reemergence for myself is like okay, how do I help people understand that we are infinitely connected, and that that what happens to one of us happens to all of us all of these things that we've talked about, but we haven't necessarily had the revelation in our hearts about

Wil Fisher  54:28  
so important and I think for folks who are in some ways consider on the outside, right for for folks who are minorities, for folks who are part of of groups where there isn't as much of a openness for some to say that we are one right it's like we are one in our heteronormative white Christian church that feels good, but as soon as we've got some drag queen outside You know, I'd like to come, then. Oh, yeah, we're one. But yeah. And so for folks who are sometimes pushed to the outside, to really own that, to anchor that in as our truth, that regardless of us being pushed away sometimes that we know that we are one, and that that we can hold on to that truth and be an anchor for that for for those who aren't able to hold it. I think there's something really powerful in that.

Tiffany  55:34  
Yes, thank you for saying that. I love that we are one.

Wil Fisher  55:39  
Yeah, so as we wrap up any any final things y'all want to share? This has been so juicy, he's so funny, amazing. I mean, I have a list of stuff in my notes that I didn't get a chance to ask about because we just were in the flow. And I love the conversation that unfold it. But anything you guys want to put out there. As we as we conclude this,

Tiffany  55:57  
this has been so great, you know, coming into the conversation, I'm like, Oh, what are we gonna talk about? Just really excited. And so I'm really glad we were able to have the conversation. And I just think ultimately, we are, whether we realize it or not all of us are so deeply spiritual. I think it goes back to your earlier point. It's whether we're willing to acknowledge it. I think that kind of activates it. Just really briefly, Mo and I made this post on social media that has gone viral and people are still like, comments again. Yeah, where we are talking about our version of a bedtime story. I mean, not a bedtime prayer. Yes. So Mo, you know, says his prayer, which is

how I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep if I die before our way I pray the Lord myself, let's say so this is the one

he grew up reciting. And so for me, I grew up reciting Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to guide me through the starry night, waking me a morning light. So we, you know, we, we had a poem for many people to see what was your version? And I mean,

we're approaching a million views on this. Wow. Or 50,000 comments? Yeah.

Yeah, so many people, you know, obviously saying that they grew up with most prayer, but man, dramatic it was how difficult it was some people even explaining how that instilled this fear of God that kind of turned them away. And so I say all that to say that it is very apparent that there are a lot of people in this world who long for a spiritual connection, who, you know, are aware of very early on as children how they wanted something, they didn't get it, they got fear, they got all of these things, and they didn't. And I just invite people into being creative. And so just really leaning into where your heart leaves you and where your intuition leads you. And then there's like, no right way, like just no right way, especially to our queer brothers, sisters and siblings, like, yeah, my heart by heart is so far.

Wil Fisher  58:21  
So good, such a good invitation. Thank you.

Tiffany  58:26  
Any final words for you? I just want to leave people with an affirmation that they are love, and they are loved. You are Love and you are loved. And if you are in a space in time, where you are feeling fear about whether or not you'll be accepted, I invite you to set this intention every day. And it's in my phone. This is my intention every day is an assignment like regardless of what you do, regardless of what's going on where you are, who you're with. Your goal is to just be love. That's how you'll know you're successful. That's how you know that your work is done. And I feel complete every time I go into any new situation because my goal is to be loved. If that's my intention, I can never be wrong. And so I invite you into that practice of setting that as your intention for every interaction every day. And it's really changed my life in the fear that I feel just being my authentic self.

Wil Fisher  59:36  
Beautiful. Thank you for that invitation. Oh, such good wisdom and that feels like a beautiful note to end on. You are Love and you are love. Well, thank you so much to both of you. This has been a total pleasure, total joy. Thank you. I hope you all love that interview as much as I did. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen And please check the show notes to learn more about Moe and Tiffany to check out their podcast to check out their amazing work in the world. And also see in the show notes a link to my upcoming retreat awakened hearts happening in Marin County. It's for GBT Q men who are looking to connect with their hearts and to connect with each other in meaningful ways. So please check that out. Thanks again for taking the time to listen to this today. Much love. Oh, my goddess Beloved's What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay. And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace

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