Stepping Into the Hologram (Caftan!) with Cator Sparks

Cator Sparks is a life coach for men. All men. With a focus on queer men. Certified through CTI and the International Coaching Federation, Cator also works for EVRYMAN leading retreats and facilitating their weekly GBTQ + men's group. Before stepping into the coaching world, Cator spent 20 years in NYC where he was a writer and editor at various publications.

In this interview we start by taking a trip down memory lane, recalling our days connecting in NYC as part of the fashion world and nightlife glitterati. And we both share our stories of how we transitioned from that kind of work and lifestyle into the work and lifestyle we’re  each experiencing now.  

Next we describe the ways working with coaches helped and influenced us on our individual paths.  We then get into the power of psychedelics and the importance of psychedelics integration.  And we chat about the possibility of seeing the world through a spiritual lens. 

Then, we discuss men’s work and the value of straight men working with gay men as coaches.  We talk about gay men being a stand for being heart-centered, for and for being vulnerability, and for being in touch with our emotions. We end sharing about the value of retreats for for GBTQ men.

Learn more about Cator here- https://www.catorsparkscoaching.com/
And his upcoming retreat here- https://www.wetravel.com/trips/gbtq-retreat-at-easton-mountain-mike-sagun-greenwich-52919054

Learn more about Wil's retreats here-
https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/events

Transcript

Wil Fisher  0:00  
Queerly beloveds, We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and clearly spiritual. I'm Sylvia will gather rainbow, spiritual life coach retreat hosts with the most and drag queens and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks are simply sharing some wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wound together in this spiritually queer a cosmic container

Hello Beloved's and welcome back to another episode of clearly Beloved. In this one I chat with my friend whom I've known for over 20 years cater sparks, who is a life coach for men with a focus on queer men. He is certified through CTI and the International coaches Federation ICF. He works for every man leading retreats and facilitating their weekly GPT Q men's group. Before stepping into the coaching world caterers spent 20 years in NYC where he was a writer and editor at various publications, and where we knew each other. So we started this interview, taking a trip down memory lane, recalling our days connecting in NYC, where we were both part of the fashion world and the nightlife glitterati. And we both share our stories of how we transition from that kind of work and lifestyle into the work and lifestyle. We're each experiencing now, in our coaching work. We thank our guardian angels at this point for keeping us safe during some very debaucherous days that we both experienced in NYC. And we talked about the ways that working with coaches has helped and influenced us on our individual paths to becoming who we are today. We then talk about the power of psychedelics and the importance of psychedelics integration, we talk about seeing the world through a spiritual lens. We chat about men's work and the value of straight men working with gay men coaches, we talked about gay men being a stand for heart centered vulnerability and being in touch with emotions. And we talk about the value of retreats for GBT, Q men, all these topics, and many more in this fun interview with cater sparks. Enjoy. Well, hello cater sparks, and welcome to clearly Beloved.

Cator  2:20  
Thanks. Well, it's so great to see you. Yeah.

Wil Fisher  2:23  
I'm excited to do this. It's so fun to have our paths cross in this way, and see how they are weaving together. And yeah, it's just a total joy.

Cator  2:35  
I totally agree. It's been what, like 20 years of knowing each other. Yeah,

Speaker 1  2:40  
I would guess so. 20 years? Which would be Yeah, when I was in my mid 20s. Yeah, in New York City. Yeah. And we'll get into some of that for sure. And I feel like there's some connections and commonalities in our in our path from where we were living it up in New York City to where we are today, living it up in other ways. But before we get into all that, and many other exciting topics, I'd like to ask you the first question, I always ask my my guests. And there's always an option to have me go first, if you want some more time to sit with it. But the question is to, to kind of take a breath and

Wil Fisher  3:25  
get centered in the present moment, and to tell me who you are in this moment, at this time in your life, and at this time in the day that you're having. But to describe who you are by describing the perfect drag avatar that embodies that. And it doesn't have to be like a RuPaul drag race avatar, it can just be any kind of Avatar, any kind of drag avatar that really encapsulates who you are in this moment.

Cator
Oh, my goodness, well, I've been doing drag since I was 18. My drag name is spectrogram. I was named by my drag mom hologram. And so I think spectris Still really captures who I am as a person just this like, Queen of the universe of all different realms of openness, excitement, adventure, curiosity, and a hell of a good dancer. That is who I am. That's the spectrum has always been a part. And when I became a coach, when I had my coach training, someone brought her up as an inner ally saying, like, as a man who can walk out in public is a woman that takes a lot of courage and a lot of power is definitely a power for you.

Wil Fisher  4:35  
I love that. And I love that name. spectrogram. It's like a name I've never heard before. conceived. That's beautiful. And so just to help bring it into this moment to anchor it into this moment. What do you think spectro would be wearing that would help express how you're feeling in this moment in your life and on this day.

Cator  5:00  
Well, I mean today it's a cozy rainy day at home but spectrum would always be in a hologram kaftan a

Wil Fisher  5:05  
hologram, kaftan work amazing, amazing,

Cator  5:11  
maybe with some biodegradable glitter tea that she'd be, she'd be sipping, but

Wil Fisher  5:16  
it's like tea that is like glitter. It's like a cup of glitter. Amazing. And what is what is the allure? Or perhaps like meaning or significance for you of the glitter and the hologram? Like does that hold any aside from it being visually exciting and interesting? Does it hold any more significance? Meaning?

Cator  5:40  
I mean, to me, there's a psychedelic element I was a Raver, you know, 90s and I will still be stopped in my tracks when I see a star hologram sticker. Because I will look at that thing for way too long. And get back to a moment where like, de light and it 95 And a warehouse, you know, yeah. Oh, I've holograms have been something that always just bring me joy. My name is spectrogram hologram was My name is hologram. So it's something that really I've always connected with, like, I love Halloween, I love just that. I love, you know, what's the birds of the Raven that just like shiny things? You know, I'm so attracted to sparkly shiny. And also, you know, it does send me into a realm of another dimension, you know?

Wil Fisher  6:29  
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the interesting thing about holograms is that it's it's almost like a 3d experience, right? Like, it's not just seeing the flat plane, 2d, but it brings us into a 3d experience. And then that's also combined with the spectrum right of the rainbow. And so it's, in some ways, it's like the embodiment of this spiritual experience. Right? It's almost like we get to peek at what spirit might look like in a hologram. And, and it is, there's something really appealing and exciting about that. And I love that you in your drag avatar are able to stand for that and help provide that for folks. Do you actually have a hologram caftan

Cator  7:19  
I have is pink sequined Andre caftan that my friend Rainey made me for a couple of Halloweens ago that my mother has worn for her birthday party that my friend Sonny has worn for New Year's Eve. He has gotten a lot of wears. Next step is a hologram. kaftan? Yeah,

Wil FIsher 1  7:38  
that needs to manifest. That sounds amazing. So yeah, I'll check in and share where I'm at today. Hmm, so I'm on the first day of a three day water fast. And so I'm in this kind of like, oh, maybe I'm hungry. And maybe and I'm not eating for a while I like kind of like playing with that knowing. And it also has me feeling lighter, because it already has been quite a few hours since I've eaten. And so I think the drag avatar that describes this place that I'm in on day one of the three day water fast is she's kind of she's kind of floaty, and she's, so she's kind of like just floating above. She's wearing heels but she doesn't actually have contact with the ground. She just kind of floats above. And she what she's coming in as gray for me right now. She's not in the vibrancy of I've done it and I now I'm like receiving the benefits of it. She's kind of in this moment of, oh gosh, how is this going to be? And so that I'm seeing right now is like this kind of gray avatar, but it's still chic. It's still it's kind of this um, I don't know, I'm seeing like post apocalyptic like, you know, some kind of Star Wars modern fashion, you know, where it's kind of drab but fabulous, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like dune. Yeah. I haven't seen the new dune but definitely that those vibes like neutral, but really fabulous. And it's textures and it's yeah, that's that's how I'm feeling right now. Love it.

Cator  9:33  
There's no spilling the tea because that's all she has to drink, girl. That's all

Wil Fisher   9:37  
she has to drink. Right girl? Don't spill that tea. Oh my god. So yeah, it's perfect that we are talking about kaftans and do an inspired fashion because I feel like some of our roots some of our first intertwining of our paths came during the days of NYC and And galavanting around the fashion world so let's let's reflect a little bit on that before we dive into some of the more personal growth and and spiritual topics that are more involved in the work that we're both currently doing. So yeah will you share with me what you remember in terms of how we connected or what you were up to back 20 years ago?

Cator  10:21  
Yeah, I'm trying to remember I moved to New York in 1999 to open the store Jeffrey rip in the Meatpacking District. We started we started to be back in district and and then jumped into quickly jumped into public relations, which then led to journalism writing I was an editor and so I was out a lot covering nightlife covering design travel men's fashion, and I remember specifically when I don't know where we were we were on a rooftop with Mike McGinnis. I think and maybe it's not a hotel Americano, somewhere like that. And it was just so fun. There was sun was setting we were having such a great time. And that was a time I really enjoy connecting with you.

Wil Fisher   10:58  
I love that. Yeah, I I do feel like when I think about you, I think about my days with SME Aki. So I was working with SME Aki for a while and I feel like you probably came to some of those events that we were doing. My good friend Jason, whose last name I'm blanking on, but I feel like you connected with him. But I also I've also catered has always loved your name like cater sparks, like similar to Ruth Paul, you know, like her mom named her Ruth Hall and she knew that she was going to be this superstar that is catered sparks your actual birth given name? Or is it a name that came to you?

Cator  11:43  
It is my actual real name. My great grandfather was named Kadir Wolfert and I'm named after him. And Sparks is my my father's side, of course. And he was Greek and it was built on opals, like other changes to sparks. So yes, it is partially made up, but not by me.

Wil Fisher   11:57  
Yeah, so I feel like there's something similar to RuPaul in that, like with a name like cater sparks, there is going to be some sparkle, there's good.
And you've certainly embodied that and followed a really beautiful, inspiring and fabulous path. And so I'm curious, you know, I place a lot of value in my time, you know, in the glitterati and the glamorous New York City nightlife scene and playing in that world. And I am really pleased with how my path has evolved to bring me into this place of service and into the world of personal growth and spirituality. And I'm curious how it was for you like, what, what inspired you into making that transition it to the stuff that you're doing now?

Cator  12:49  
Yeah, well, I lost my job. I was the editor in chief of a website called the manual, we got bought out and they canned me. And that was super crushing to the ego. I thought it was a job I'd have forever I found the website. And then, and then I was in unhealthy relationship and left that so no job, no relationship. What's next. And I went to ananda ashram in upstate New York and sat with it for a couple of days. And life coaching book came to me, I've always loved working with people supporting people supporting men. I was in men's fashion. And it was kind of, you know, it was very coaching when I would, I worked for the New York Times, and I would literally change people's lives if I wrote about them. And I was learning about their process and learning who they are. And I love that I love supporting people, uplifting people. And so coaching was really something that I'd had a coach for years in Sedona, Arizona. So to find that path was really exciting for me, and I didn't look back, you know, I think I found corrective Training Institute, like a couple of weeks after that signed up, and you know, started in

Wil Fisher  13:52  
amazing, amazing, yeah, that's, I love that you were able to take that time after this, you know, somewhat traumatic event, this big ego blow to take that time to go into stillness and be able to find that, you know, it sounds like pretty efficiently, like pretty quickly. And then to follow that path and a good way.

Cator  14:18  
I've always been given the gift of having quick, very, very quick on my feet really unknowing, knowing what I want, I mean, pleased to pick out curtains and like I picked up the curtains in literally five minutes and she was like, how did you do that? I'm like, I know what I want. You know? And I've always like I've always if this is what I'm gonna do, I'm going to do it and

Wil Fisher  14:41  
yeah, that decisive energy right that key that King energy supported by the warrior it's like you see it you know, you want it and you go for it. I love that. What percent? Yeah, that's beautiful. I'd say my so you know in the art types of lover King warrior magician. my strong suit is lover. And so I am more in this space of like, but those curtains are so fabulous. And this energy and those curtains and what about those curtains? So I often am more challenged by that decisiveness that like, No, this is the thing, and I'm going to move towards it. So I admire that, that that's one of your one of your superpowers. That is definitely a valuable one. And so you went into this stillness piece, and I'm curious for you, what it was like making that transition. And specifically, I'm wondering, if you know, I think for many of us who go into the world of personal growth and spirituality and service, we do experience a lot of growth and healing in the transition into that world. And I'm curious if that was true for you, as well? And if so, you know, what, what might you want to share about it? Yeah, I'd

Cator  16:01  
love to hear your side of this too, especially for New York, New York era, because I did I love what I do. I love being a coach. I can't wait to just do it more and more and more, and I want to do it till you know, I'm slipped in the grave. I just had such power. It's such a powerful vehicle to see change and to witness people blossoming and finding this love and connection. And it's also really fun. I had a client last week said, we just talked about sex for an hour. I said, Guys, we can talk about sex for an hour or so it is, it can be challenging, but also so rewarding. But what I really learned is, is on so many levels of like, when I went through coach training, I was being coached myself. And that was just, you know, it was you know, there's a book called by Elizabeth lesser called broken open. And I was broken open for a year and just rewired and like learning about my past. And one thing I learned is that, you know, I came out at 18, and then never worked, worked on that trauma of being bullied and almost suicidal. That long. I just was like, I'm out. It's great. I'm moving on. And then you know, all the years in New York of looking back and be like, Wow, I was not healthy. A lot of that time. laboris being working for The New York Times covering Grace Jones, the Chaka Khan's parties, and spending this time in our Basel, but there was way too much too many drugs, way too much sex, which sex is fabulous. But when you're at 4am, and you're cross eyed, you don't know quite who it is. This is not healthy. And I looked back at that with like, I'm sorry, I had angels looking over me because I don't know how I'm still alive. I'm not sick. I'm not whatever, you know, because so I put myself in a lot of precarious situations. And it was just unhealthy. I remember walking down the street one day in Harlem thinking I don't remember the last day I was sober. And, but didn't do anything about it. Because that was our life. I'm sure Pete kids in New York these days are doing the exact same thing. And you know what, it's your journey, go for it. But what I could have accomplished in New York, if I was a little more sober and a little more had a little more self love was at the gay bars till five in the morning, you know, looking for love, which as RuPaul taught us you have to live the life you want to lead. And I wasn't living the light. I wanted to have a partner and have a house and hats and you're not finding that at five in the morning. On blow at the car.

Wil Fisher   18:30  
Yeah, so I similarly, yeah, had moments like that at the COC. And I do look back now at those times. And I also thank my angels, and I'm like, How the hell did I survive all those years? Playing in that way and at that level? And yeah, I feel very grateful to have survived all of it. And yeah, my friend, Justin Scott just made me this really beautiful book of our times in New York City, you know, a lot of like drag pictures. And because we were producing parties, we had this little party production and promotions company called Snapdragon, we had this fabulous party in the basement of the Morgan hotel, and we did a fashion show with the blondes before they were as big as they are now. And I think there you are. Yeah, that makes sense. That that Yes. So we I was just looking at these pictures and I again, I I am grateful, because what memories and what, you know, fabulous stories, but boy, I'm glad that I survived because it was not healthy. And in many ways, it was dangerous, some of these experiences that I was putting myself in.
And, yeah, similarly, I think I got to a point where I was in New York City, and I'd been there for, you know, 15 years or so. And I was starting to flirt with with queer spirituality and like learn about these other ways of being gay. And I was connecting with the radical fairies. And then I ended up at Eastern Mountain actually, they invited me to serve as a co producer of a big queer Music Festival, which I got Justin Vivian bond to come and MC and brought in a bunch of queer folks. And so it was then that I was like doing my soul searching, like maybe I don't need to be living in New York City anymore. Maybe this the lifestyle that I have, when I'm here is not what I want to do for the rest of my life. And so I was I also while I was at East and ended up meeting my coach, who was just getting started. He's like, a super coach now, like, killing it. And he was just getting started and coached me, I think for free, because he needed the hours. And so I also got this experience of like, oh, wow, coaching is so powerful. And then it was while So then one thing led to another, I ended up, you know, working part time at East and ended up serving as the executive director. And that was my big moment into, okay, now I'm like doing this big boy job and doing it for this in this world of personal growth and spirituality. Like, I need to step it up. And so how am I going to do that? And so, yeah, so that's, that was sort of my path into it.

Cator  21:26  
I love that. Yeah, very similar. And I think we all have that moment, which I'm working on with several clients of when is that moment you just say, I'm done with New York? Sometimes we have that moment that we're like, Yeah, I mean, I bought a house in Charleston that I could not afford anything in New York City. And, you know, and I have a home here that I bought 11 years ago, and I thought, Oh, it'll be a weakened place for a little bit. And then being down here, I was like, oh, no, no, no, I'm done with New York, like, you know, and then I would go back and my whole vibe just shifted, like, after three or four days, I'm like, get me out of here. You know?

Wil Fisher   22:00  
Yeah, absolutely.

Cator  22:02  
I still love it. I love, love, love New York. It's a special special place. And I'm so honored, I got to be there for so long. But you know, my time is here now. And it's equally as I'm equally as thankful. I totally

Wil Fisher  22:13  
love it, too. I love visiting it. And I love the people who live there and the lives that they're living. And I know so many people who stay there past the expiration date, and want to get out and it's a hard city to leave. And you know, one of my dear friends, Jeffrey Gray, he is now in Palm Springs after decades and decades in New York City. And he is just like a changed person living this really amazing life. Yeah, so I love that you're able to support people through that process. And I think that really does circle back to this decisiveness, right. It's like, so many of us know that we want something else. We know, we want a change in our lives. We know we want something different than what we have now. And getting to the place of decision backed by action is the tricky part. And we think that we've decided, but we haven't decided if the action isn't there backing it up. We're still on the fence. You know, so I'm sure your superpower comes in, and the energy supports that that process make that process of deceit? Yeah, thank

Cator  23:20  
you. Well, again, that's why coaching is so I wish I had a coach for so much longer than I you know, if I had had when I was an editor at the manual, wow, how would have been different like dealing with corporate and the bro culture and like the sexism in like, gosh, it would have been amazing. You know, I would have regulated my body and my mind in such a different way.

Wil Fisher  23:40  
Absolutely. Yeah. So I also noticed that you're doing some integration work for folks. Post psychedelic experiences. I'm curious. Were psychedelics any part of your coming to this place of who you are today? Have they supported you on your journey? And in what yeah,

Cator  24:00  
I've had a previous job. One of my bosses was very into psychedelics, and I just still thought of them as drugs that I was like, I've done with drugs. I don't do drugs. You know, I did it as a raver. I did the blow, I stopped doing coke. I'm so proud of myself. And he was like, come and do this journey with us. I'm like, Nah, drugs. And so I was like, I was curious. And I went and it was mind blowing. Absolutely. You know, being in a cabin upstate with 510 other people and just like coming through all our stuff. And you know, I learned so much about myself at that time. But what's so shocking is I came we did it and maybe they offered integration. I was so new to it. I don't remember but I home to my boyfriend at the time and I just like had this I was like wow, I had seizures on the floor and skeleton for command on my mouth. And he was like, you want to go get a drink. Understand what I was talking about and no one did and friends would kind of make fun of me and I was so I didn't do it again for a long time and then and And I did, I slowly got more more attuned after my divorce, I went to temple, the way of light did Ayahuasca. And I'd already started doing more psychedelics before then, but a lot of mushrooms, which I think are so powerful. And so I know that people need that integration, they need, you know, whether they've been to the temple and they need integration, or they did it by themselves, they need some support. I'm here for them, you know, and seeing how that's piqued people's interest. When it's on my website that I got, again, it was I like to be trained, I like to, like have a certificate, that's my, like King power, I guess I want to be all like, you know, prim and proper about it. So I went to blue in a psychedelic training course it was all online. It was a weekend, zoom. It was fascinating. And so which it's, you know, integration therapy, as you know, is just like coaching, you know, done ketamine to know how to coach someone through, you know, just what are you what's your What was your intention? And where are you now, you know, and it's been really beautiful. And I'm just thankful that those, I told my mom when I was like, 18, and I was doing ecstasy, and acid and peyote and all of it and she was so worried. And I said, Mom, this is helping me and I and I, I promise you this will be legal one day and be changed. And here we are, you know, hospital in Charleston that does it with military veterans to help. Wow, this d so we're getting, we're getting

Wil Fisher  26:27  
there. Yeah, absolutely. Beautiful way. Quick. Sidenote, what is your astrological sign?

Cator  26:33  
I'm a Taurus, your Taurus. Cool. Cool.

Wil Fisher 26:36  
I had I had a sense that, yeah, I am a Capricorn and I also like certifications. So yeah, I think it's so important. And there's just so many people who are riding this wave of psychedelic tourism. And I think that the integrative opportunities or invitations, can really help address that so that people aren't just going and having a big roller coaster type of experience, and then being different for a few days, but then allowing the back the old patterns to come right back. Were the the more recent psychedelic experiences and perhaps, particularly the ones in Iosco. How did they serve you if at all, in terms of your spiritual development, your connection to spirit and the spirit realm? Well, I

Cator  27:34  
always whenever I take mushrooms, and now I Alaska, like I, once it kicks in, I always hit myself, Oh, here I am back. You know, I feel like Oh, I'm in that place. I shouldn't be I'm in I'm in I talked about holograms I am in this other universe that like we should all experience the beauty of that third eye and like seeing the world in such a different beautiful way. Vulnerable hallway. And so the Ayahuasca retreat was was really profound for me, because I went, I was supposed to go for my divorce, but in COVID happened. So I went three years later, we already had a process my divorce, new partner, but, you know, I had a lot of anger with, you know, the politics in America and stuff. And so I did a lot of inner child healing, which is bound and you know, but you know, when you're in the middle of the jungle, and you're doing ayahuasca and you're hearing the Shipibo, and you hear the frogs, and you see the bats and like, all this and the butterflies, you were just so connected, you know, I know we tell our clients to or I mean, I tell my clients like when you're feeling stressed or anxious, like go outside touch a tree. And that can feel so healing, but wow, once you've done psychedelics and touch that tree, there's a whole nother level of touching that tree.

Wil Fisher   28:49  
Yeah, it's stepping into the hologram and then touching the tree.

Cator  28:56  
And not that you have to be in that hologram every time you touch the tree, but I now know what it feels like to touch that tree and an altar in a different state. It's a altered state, so I can connect to that tree differently or to nature ground everything you know,

Wil Fisher  29:11  
everything I'll all aspects of life. I mean, I would say that what we're talking about here, from my perspective, is seeing the world more through a spiritual lens. So it's what it makes me think of as you know, those like kaleidoscopes it makes me think of like just using a kaleidoscope and looking at different aspects of our lives through the kaleidoscope through the hologram and being able to see more aspects of it more that the deeper, richer, more Technicolor truth of situations rather than just the human physical story that we place on these things usually from our egos.

Cator  29:51  
100%

Wil Fisher   29:54  
Cool, so yeah, let's shift over to men's work. I love that. That is your main fun focus in your work and also in not only in your one on one coaching, but also in your facilitation. I know we both have men's retreats coming up. So yeah, let's chat a little bit about what is men's work and why that feels like a particular passion for you to be in service of. Thanks.

Cator  30:19  
Yeah, well, two reasons. One I was so when Well, three things one, they said when I started coaching, like you need an angle, just be life coach period, like life coach Roman for men for, you know, pregnant women for alcoholics, or whatever. And I was like, Well, life coach for men, resonates with me, because I was I was an editor, I was efficient, I was a men's fashion editor. So I like the men's world for so long and men's fashion, that I thought why I enjoy that I enjoy connecting with men and these different levels. So it makes sense to go that way. But also, a big part of it was a little bit of fear of like, leaning into, like working with straight men, like they're the ones who bully, you know, for 18 years, and I like still do some of them and so to, to work with them and to be a coach for men. Like that was really leaning into some vulnerability for me and what's been mind blowing for me. I'm 47. And, you know, these younger guys, they don't think about, I mean, I don't know, but they never they, you know, they hire me. They know I'm gay. It says I'm gay. And they don't care, you know, and they're as masculine as can be and work on Wall Street and the snap, but they come to me and connect with me, and I'm so honored, but it's also still like it is that that saboteur at me? Like why is he? Why Does that strike I interested in working with a gay guy, you know?

Wil Fisher   31:36  
And what do you think a queer person or gay guy can bring to that kind of relationship? What do you think is the value of a street guy working with a gay guy? Well,

Cator  31:46  
I've heard from a lot of other coaches that a lot of straight men go for gay men, because it's it's a lot less pressure. If you're talking to a straight man to straight man, bro, bro, might be a lot harder, the harder to be vulnerable. And a gay man, you have this little like, you know, this little in that you're still a man, you still, you know, connect with me and in many ways, but there's a vulnerability there and openness that maybe queer men have that that the straight men don't I just, you know, the amount of straight coaches I know who are amazing. I don't. Okay, you know, if that's what, you know, resonates with some guys. Awesome. Yeah, credentials. Who knows, you know?

Wil Fisher   32:26  
Sure. Yeah. Not to say that words. We're not meaning to speak in absolutes. There's many straight men and straight coaches and straight healers who are very heart centered, very vulnerable. But I do think that there is something true in this, this piece around queer men and gay men being a stand for more heart centered connection, being a stand for a person in a male form, who is able to be with their emotions, who's able to be sensitive, I do think that we, in our tribe, queer men, specifically gay men, I feel like that is part of what our purpose is, is to embody that and to model that. And again, it's not that straight men can't do that, and don't do that. But I do think that that is one of the superpowers that is often more likely to be to be followed through by gay queer men. And that also means that gay queer men need a lot of healing to step into that to fully step into that

Cator  33:35  
under berthet. Yes. And that's, you know, and that's the other part I love is I love working with gay men, you know, I've had female coach therapists and coaches, you know, for 30 years of my life, and when I first talked to a gay coach, wow, it was just like, a wall came down. And just because they, you know, these, these women may not understand my addiction, or my sex issues, or the shame of being bullied, you know, even if they're lesbians, like there's just a different, a different connection there. And, you know, my clients will come to me and talk about like, poppers and topping and bottoming and stuff that like, you know, gay men can just connect with on a very deep level and understand the bullying, understand the sex understand so many finer points that the, it's it's so beautiful to, to witness and to be a part

Wil Fisher   34:26  
of, yeah, there's something so valuable about shared experience, right, and to be able to connect so quickly, because you have that foundational shared experience. So what about your work with every man? Is that in what ways is that different than coaching and like, can you share a little bit about men's work specifically, and I know sacred sons, so I've, I've held space for queer men who are it's really an LGBTQ plus. So we are actually attracts a lot of allies, a lot of guys who are living straight lives come to our groups as well. But I would hold space for for that on a monthly basis with sacred sons, which is a amazing organization doing men's work, we're not offering it anymore because it was part of their online offering that they're not doing right now. But um, so I don't know, every man is as as well. And I'm curious what their idea is around men's work, if you could just describe that a little bit. Yeah,

Cator  35:32  
it's really just healing men, you know, we, they were founded, I think, in 2016. And they capitol in upstate New York. And it was really started out as like a couple of retreats a year and then turn it into like, four or five or six retreats a year. And then as soon as COVID happened, I don't know how they did this so quickly, but they instantly switched to online platform. And that's where we're still we now do both we do in retreats, and online. And we have training courses, foundations, fundamentals, for men to really learn more about themselves. And even if they want to not be a certified coach through us, but learning a lot of our techniques. And it's just wonderful. And then New York Times called us CrossFit for the emotions. Nice. Well, I think a lot of the people who are in it just kind of hit, you know, hit it at the right time. And, you know, we've been in GQ and CBS, ABC, NBC, just came to Joshua Tree when we were there last September and filmed us. And that was really, really powerful, that really connected it really showed what we do. So I love it again, because I'm with a lot of straight men, that that's vulnerable for me, but they're amazing, man, I've found some great connections and every man, I facilitate the LGBTQ men's group every week, every Wednesday at two, it's open to the public. And, and I love it, because it is a place where gay men can come and drop in and be more spiritual as questions come in process something, you know, you know, their son is treating them poorly, or they're single and lonely or, or we can talk about poppers. It's really, and it's a really beautiful space. And I've been doing, I've been reading that group now for almost four years. And there's a real core group of men that show up every week. And it's fun. It's one of my highlights of my week. I love doing it. And then Mike sagoon, who was formerly an everyman, now, the new group called melt, men's emotional leadership development, he, he and I are doing our gay men's retreats at Eastern Mountain in May, and we did one last year, because we love these bigger retreats that incorporate everybody. But, you know, just like for anything, we'd love to have something specifically for our community. And we're really excited about about this. This one. Yeah,

Wil Fisher   37:48  
again, having that shared experience foundation can be really beautiful. And especially for gay men, I think to feel safe. Right. And certainly, like you said, there's some great medicine and going to a group of men that are that are straight, as well as GP tq. There's great medicine in that as well. But I think there's something specific that men get to receive when they come to a group that is specifically for LGBTQ men. And I just Yeah, I love to see men in those spaces. Connect in new ways, right. I feel like so many of the spaces that GBT Q men have access to connect with other men is very sexualized, it's very focused on partying, there aren't a lot of opportunities for gay men to really drop into their hearts together. And that's like one of the most valuable pieces of of medicine that I see them experience in these retreats that I also offer. Yeah, exactly.

Cator  39:00  
It is it's profound to watch them drop in and connect and really focus on things that are specific to our community. And that we can bring up and with somebody to even say what what do you want to get out this this retreat? What did what did you come here for? And to hear the actions and you know, we can tweak for that? It's been really beautiful.

Wil Fisher  39:22  
Sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, the pups bark a little bit now it's totally bark

Cator  39:27  
and he's ready to go. And, and so it's I love I love doing that and I love doing it with our community and just and sharing that space together. And and again, it doesn't have to be crying queers sad dads. It can be there's so much celebration there as well. You know, yes, we get to the heavy stuff. We get to the vulnerability but also we get to the queer joy and that's equally as therapeutic.

Wil Fisher  39:50  
Absolutely, yeah. Queer joy is definitely something that I have a stand for as well. It's definitely something I incorporate into my work and And the playfulness is it's so important to weave it in with these things. You know, going back to your comments around, you know, we can talk about these deep things, these processing experiences. And we can talk about poppers, I think that is of a particular flavor of, of how queer men often come together is we are able to both be with those heavy, serious topics. And then popcorn in sporadic bursts of queer joy, to help to help mix it up and to sometimes bring some levity to some heavier spaces. 100%

Wil Fisher   40:39  
Cool, yeah. Anything else you want to share about that particular retreat? Or men's work in general? Yeah, well,

Cator  40:45  
we're excited about it. Like I said, Eastern Mountain, May 10, to 12. And yeah, it's one of the biggest retreats we've done for the LGBTQ community. So you know, we still have space available and love some more guys. And we know we hope to do this maybe even twice a year if it resonates. Maybe east coast as well. West Coast as well. So yeah, we're really excited to do this. And and, you know, it's, it's been so incredible just to connect with men through men's work. And you know, just today, I was talking to another coach from every man about shame, and talking about how straight men deal with process shame and what their shame comes from when our shame are men and so much of it is so similar, which is so funny, you know, but it was a really beautiful conversation. So I can just do this all the time. I love connection.

Wil Fisher   41:39  
Awesome. Yeah. Have I told you or have you heard of the the infamous drag closet at Eastern Mountain? I

Cator  41:47  
think you mentioned it, please tell me more.

Wil Fisher   41:51  
I well, I not to boast and brag, but it is part of my legacy. It's one of the things I left behind. One of the things I was very much a champion for was we before I served as IDI we had some drag, but it was like on some racks that were kept like way back in this dingy area, and we'd sometimes pull it out. And so we had this space that was unused. And I had us clear it out and it became the drag closet. And with the help of some generous supporters like candy, candy stamp, candy wrapper, and other amazing folks is transformed to a space where you can go and find a gown in any size, a pair of heels in any size, lots of wigs and hats and, and there's more drag that needs to be incorporated that's currently in a storage area. So if you can't find what you want to have them bring you into the storage area. Amazing. A little tip. But yeah, it's super fun. And Easton is a very much a place where the invitation is always there to find your way into the drag closet after a dip in the hot tub and bring a look to dinner. So I encourage you to to bring that in. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's funny, like thinking about shame in relationship to that I feel like all the opportunities for self expression, you can sometimes be triggering to those who are still sitting with shame. And so I am just excited for the men who are going to come join you to be in a safe space where they can both face the challenges, the shame, if that's what's coming up, and also move past it and take go into that space of freedom and self expression.

Cator  43:43  
Thank you. Thank you. You're we're very excited. So we'll keep you posted.

Wil Fisher  43:47  
Yes, please do. And yeah, any any final thoughts or words you want to share with the listeners before we close up?

Cator  43:56  
Ah, you know, gosh, I mean, I could go on and on, but I'm so thankful for for being here. I think it's so important to have these places to be authentic, vulnerable and learning from each other. You know, these podcasts are really getting to learn from each other. And, and, and growing and, you know, just blossoming. So thank you for doing what you do,

Wil Fisher   44:20  
huh? Yeah, thank you. It's a total pleasure. And yeah, I can't wait also to see that hologram kaftan the next the next time we do it interview I want you to be wearing it

Cator  44:33  
out we'll get animal cranial in right now.

Wil Fisher  44:37  
Alright, so much fun catered. Thank you so much. This was a thank you so much for listening my beloved's as we both mentioned we each have retreats coming up. Mine on the West Coast. Here's on the East Coast. Mine is awaken hearts retreat that's happening. May 2 through fifth in Marin County, outside of San Francisco reach out of fear Interested caterers is happening at Easton mountain in upstate New York. And that's happening may 10 through 12th. And the info for both of those events will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 1  45:14  
It's always a pleasure. Much love. Oh, my goddess Beloved's What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay. And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace

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