Joe Weston is an international thought leader, facilitator, trainer, author, lecturer, consultant, coach, professor and—above all else—an advocate for lasting peace. With a career spanning 30+ years in the fields of conflict prevention, leadership, stress management and communication, he is a highly sought-after facilitator and has worked with groups ranging from NASA scientists to prison inmates. He’s the author of "Respectful Confrontation" and his newest book, "Fierce Civility", which we focus on in this interview. His Tedx Talk (linked below) is titled “A Cure for Chronic Niceness."
We start this interview by talking about my story of the work I’ve done with Joe and how it helped me connect with my embodied authentic power. We then hear about his journey in developing two main bodies of work and the books that express them. And what the evolution of his work has been like. We talk about purpose and approaching it from a place of being in greatest service to the higher will.
Next, we explore the global spiritual malnourishment he observes, where our global heart is being technologically overfed and spiritually under fed. Then we get into the ways people can soften their hearts, what that look like, at what the value of it is.
Joe talks about his belief that it’s in your vulnerability where your true power is revealed. He shares a story that illustrates what’s needed for people to feel safe enough to step into their vulnerability. We end with the question, "How do you become a catalyst for fierce hope?" All these topics and more in this profound and powerful interview with my teacher and friend, Joe Weston.
Learn more about Joe here- https://joeweston.com/
Check out his free monthly meditation here- https://joeweston.com/event/global-heart-gathering-2/2024-05-14/
Watch his Tedx Talk here- https://joeweston.com/tedx-speaker/
Learn more about Wil and connect with him here- https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/
Joe Weston is an international thought leader, facilitator, trainer, author, lecturer, consultant, coach, professor and—above all else—an advocate for lasting peace. With a career spanning 30+ years in the fields of conflict prevention, leadership, stress management and communication, he is a highly sought-after facilitator and has worked with groups ranging from NASA scientists to prison inmates. He’s the author of "Respectful Confrontation" and his newest book, "Fierce Civility", which we focus on in this interview. His Tedx Talk (linked below) is titled “A Cure for Chronic Niceness."
We start this interview by talking about my story of the work I’ve done with Joe and how it helped me connect with my embodied authentic power. We then hear about his journey in developing two main bodies of work and the books that express them. And what the evolution of his work has been like. We talk about purpose and approaching it from a place of being in greatest service to the higher will.
Next, we explore the global spiritual malnourishment he observes, where our global heart is being technologically overfed and spiritually under fed. Then we get into the ways people can soften their hearts, what that look like, at what the value of it is.
Joe talks about his belief that it’s in your vulnerability where your true power is revealed. He shares a story that illustrates what’s needed for people to feel safe enough to step into their vulnerability. We end with the question, "How do you become a catalyst for fierce hope?" All these topics and more in this profound and powerful interview with my teacher and friend, Joe Weston.
Learn more about Joe here- https://joeweston.com/
Check out his free monthly meditation here- https://joeweston.com/event/global-heart-gathering-2/2024-05-14/
Watch his Tedx Talk here- https://joeweston.com/tedx-speaker/
Learn more about Wil and connect with him here- https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/
Wil Fisher 0:00
Queerly Beloveds, We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and clearly spiritual.
I'm Sylvia will gather rainbow, a spiritual life coach retreat hosts with the most and drag queens, and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks are simply sharing some wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wound together in this spiritual a queer a cosmic container and blast off.
And no Beloved's and welcome to another episode of clearly beloved in this one I talk with my friend Joe Weston, whose TED talk titled a cure for chronic niceness just came out a couple weeks ago. Joe is an international thought leader, facilitator, trainer, author, lecturer, consultant, coach, professor, and above all else, an advocate for lasting peace with a career spanning 30 plus years in the fields of Conflict Prevention, leadership, stress management and communication. He is a highly sought after facilitator and has worked with groups ranging from NASA scientists to prison inmates. He's the author of respectful confrontation and his newest book, fear, civility, which we focus on in this interview. So we start by talking about my story of working with Joe, and getting to experience perhaps for the first time, my embodied authentic power thanks to Joe's work. We then hear about his journey in developing his two main bodies of work, and the books that express them and what the evolution of work has been like for him. We talk about purpose and approaching it from this place of being in greatest service to the higher will next be explore the global spiritual malnourishment, that show observes, where our global heart is being technologically overfed, and spiritually underfed, then we get into ways that we can soften our hearts. And we look at the value of that action. Joe then talks about his belief that it's in your vulnerability where your true power is revealed. And he illustrates that with a story that is really profound and powerful. We end with the question, how do you become a catalyst for fierce hope? All of these topics and more in this interview with my teacher and friend, Joe Weston, enjoy. Well, hello, Joe Weston, welcome to clearly Beloved. Hi,
Joe 2:39
it's great to be here. It's great to be here doing this with you. I
Wil Fisher 2:43
love you so much. And I'm so happy that we're finally doing this. We've talked about it a few times. And now it's happening and I couldn't be happier.
Joe 2:52
It's a great time of the year to do it's almost your birthday, all that kind of fun stuff. You're so on
Wil Fisher 2:58
top of birthdays. I love that about you.
Joe 3:03
Someone's going to do
Wil Fisher 3:05
so well the question that I start every interview with which I usually tell people in advance so they can have a second to prepare. But I have not given you that. That grace, because I have faith and your creativity is this question. Who are you in this moment, but tell me by describing the perfect drag avatar that describes that that embodies that? And it doesn't have to be like a drag queen. It can be any kind of Avatar. And so I invite you to you know, take a breath and then speak when you are ready.
Joe 3:43
Well, I've been thinking of myself lately as a catalyst in a way that to activate to activate peace to activate conversation. catalysts are also very uncomfortable. So usually when I think about what would my drag persona be or my avatar I always think of Luna from Harry Potter. I don't know if you remember Oh, no, I think she's so pure and so wise and so powerful in her but in terms of a catalyst I think of Katniss Everdeen when she in The Hunger Games when she is on the chariot and she lights herself up on fire. I guess if I would have a persona it will be something that if I turn the switch just lights up with fire. Yeah,
Wil Fisher 4:34
yes. That that fire, Alchemy energy in the room. I love that. Thank you. And I'll share my dragon avatar in this moment is there's a softness that I'm experiencing in myself right now. A humbleness and humility. And, and within that there's also a fierce determination And so the avatar is like, it's like a soft white flower. But with these bright pinks, like popping through hydrangea, is that what that may be? Maybe I'm a hydrangea. Hydrangea Redragon name? Yeah, let's get one. So yeah, that's that's, that's my experience right now.
Joe 5:27
Huh? Dairy and, and sounds like it's steady, soft, powerful, growing and beautiful, huh?
Wil Fisher 5:36
Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that reflection. And, yeah, I am so grateful to you for all the ways you've helped me become that flower, all the ways that you have supported my growth journey. And when I speak about my path to where I'm at right now, I often talk about the time when I became Executive Director of Eastern Mountain, and recognize that I was not able to lead and the way that I desired and the way that the responsibility of being Ed was, was needing, and that the reason for that was that I wasn't connected to my authentic power. And it was the workshops that I got to do with you, that supported me to understand my authentic power and step into my authentic power. And it was a real catalyst moment for me. And so I am forever grateful.
Joe 6:43
Thank you. Thank you. Can I share my reflection of that? Yeah, please? Well, I remember that very first time when you sat in a workshop up at Eastern Mountain when it was on my four pillars of resilient power or true power. And it was going through the four different ways of finding your authentic power. And I'll never forget the moment of I think it was the final circle at the end of the of the of that session, and looking over at you and you were in there were tears coming down your eyes, and you were lit up. And ecstatic, I would say. And, for me, what I was observing and witnessing was a recognition of your authentic self. I think there was a recognition of the work. Like a shock, like I can't believe this is possible. But I but I would turn it around and say I was witnessing you saying that about yourself. I can't believe this is possible that I can be experiencing and feeling this right now. And it was sacred was an honor to be a witness to that. Thank you,
Wil Fisher 7:45
thank you so much. And I'm getting emotional. Recalling that moment. And it was such a lesson in embodiment. For me, it was like I understood that I had now stepped into a position of power, I understood that I knew a few things and had some wisdom to share. There were quality, there were leadership qualities within me, I understood it on a mental level, but I hadn't experienced it in an embodied way. And that was what shifted in that, you know, hour and a half or however long that workshop was, I got to get a taste of embodied authentic power. And that was such a game changer for me. So yeah, thank you again. And it's been such an honor to be connected to your work and get to see your work as it's evolved. And so, you know, as I talk to you on the Zoom screen, I can see the two books behind you respectful conference, confrontation and fierce civility. And I'm curious, what it's been like to, to move from one body of work to the next, as as we start this conversation that will mostly be focused on the themes with with fierce civility, as I know, those are most alive within you right now.
Joe 9:10
It's a good question. I think it was just, I mean, I think all my life, I've always stepped into the unknown and fog created impulse and surprising to myself, you know, that I do that. But that, you know, since I was a kid, and you know, and my whole quest of just like as a joke, saying, I'm going to after university, I'm going to bomb around Europe for a year and then going to Holland and staying for 18 years and doing all the things that I did there and then deciding to come back and developing this body of work of respectful confrontation that it I guess it's part of my spiritual practice and emotional practice of feeling into the creative impulse of what is might be needed at this moment. Hmm. And the respectful confrontation came out of my years of training in Tai Chi and martial arts and Taoism, and particularly Taoist alchemy, and my, my deep practice in Tibetan Buddhism, specifically in Tibetan Buddhism, the practice of developing, cultivating the compassionate heart. So in a sense that enforce the sense of being in balance and flow, the DAO ism and attend the martial arts being in balance and flow with myself, others and the environment and Tibetan Buddhism, in the sense of cultivating wisdom, but mostly cultivating How can I increase my capacity in my heart, to be of service to others. So in a sense, there was years of that, that I developed. And one of the big impulses for me to return to the states, where I did develop the respectful confrontation work was when the United States invaded Iraq, in 2003. And I was literally in bed for two days sick from that, from that, because it was an opportunity, I can spend a long time saying, I was a missed opportunity with 911, that the US made some mistakes, I would say mistakes that we could have gone a different direction on the planet, and then thought, and then, in one of my meditations in one of my Buddhist practices, I envisioned myself walking the perimeter of the United States in the shape of a heart. And that's how I came up with the, my avatar, the heart Walker, right. And the message I got was United States need some love. And so that was one of the reasons I came back, went to Northern California, where I did some amazing work on various communities develop the work, because I felt the need was I was coming across so many people on the planet who I felt had something to offer, they weren't they that could offer some kind of impact in a beneficial way. But we're not finding their power of finding their voice. So that was the original impulse with respectful confrontation was to help people find their power and to and to know the difference between assertiveness and aggression so that they could stretch their capacity to have an impact and not worry about the things that we usually people pleasers and people who suffer from a new concept. I'm working with chronic niceness, how do we overcome our chronic niceness. And I did that in many different venues, as you know, in, in corporate, in government and nonprofits, for individuals in the Middle East, working with women's rights organizations, social justice organizations. And that's where I started feeling the world has been changing. It's been getting more polarized. It's, we're losing our connection with our hearts and our humanity, out of fear and anxiety and uncertainty. More and more people are buying into the bully paradigm. Even people who don't want to be seen as bullies or don't think themselves as bullies. It's good. It's been rewarded in the last 10 years. So that's where the impetus came for fear. civility is where respectful confrontation is how do we confront ourselves, and people in our lives? Fear civility is how do we have the courage and the skills to confront a world system? Power over system, a system that rewards the bully? And how do we become how do we confront a bully without becoming a bully? Hmm, yeah, that that was the transition and all that happened, really, during the pandemic, the real push to did most of the writing happened during the whole period of the pandemic. Where the world was changing from hour to hour. So my book was changing. And all the things that we saw with the pandemic with with George Floyd in the US, the lockdowns in Europe, with all of a sudden anti vaxxers, vaxxers, anti vaxxers, massacres, massacres, and all of that, which made us even more polarized.
Wil Fisher 14:12
Yeah, I love hearing you reflect on the evolution of your work. And one of the things that strikes me and what you just shared, is this. This opening to what is needed from me, and it strikes me especially because I see people as they're seeking their life's purpose, often begin with what do I desire? And what am I good at? And what do I want? What do I how do I want to serve, which there's nothing bad about that? It makes sense for us to find aligned paths that are connecting us to our passions and our skills and our experiences. And the question that you is often overlooked is what does the world need from me? And, and, and often that might come in after the fact. But it strikes me as, as for you, you're you're, you're defaulting to that, that that's the first question you ask, what does the world need for me? And then, of course, like, Where do my passions and my skills and experiences fit into that? And how can I serve that need? And it really feels aligned with some work that I'm doing right now, which is asking God like, what, how do you want to use me? You know, I'm here for your use, like, how do you want to use me, and doing my best to show up as a pure channel for that? And, and I, I, yeah, and inspired by that, that default setting of yours to, to lead with service, and to seek what service is most being needed?
Joe 16:00
Thank you, thank you, I appreciate you seeing that. And I think I am wired for that. And I practiced it. And it can practice that. I mean, you know, I will to will, they will, you've heard me say that I think that's I forget which tradition that is, I think that ruins I think you can see that in or make me an instrument of thy peace, right? That's the same thing I will to will by Well, my only intention is to be of service to your, your will a higher one. And that's where true happiness comes. That's where my Buddhism that of the study in Buddhism is that to say, you know, certainly in one of the things that you hear that His Holiness the Dalai Lama, say, as well as Buddha, the teaching of Buddha, is, if you're seeking your own happiness, you find suffering, if you seek the happening, happiness of others, that's when you find true, authentic, lasting happiness that has that has deeper merit and deeper ramifications and impact and benefit. And I don't know how, in Buddhist traditions, if you look at the whole, all the teachings, there's a lot of choices there. And either what you're more wired to or what you choose, maybe you heard the terms Hinayana and Mahayana. Hinayana path is more for self liberation, which is closer, I think, to a lot of Hindu traditions, it's about self deliberate liberation, self actualization. And the Mahayana path is to become enlightened, in order to be of service to help other beings become enlightened. One is not better than the other, it's simply a choice. Some people are more wired to their own practice and their own devotion to themselves. And, and some people are wired towards the Mahayana path, which is, how can I possibly if I were to achieve that liberation, how can I possibly relax into that, knowing that so many beings are still suffering?
Wil Fisher 18:05
Yep. Yeah, beautiful. And, yeah, this piece around happiness, it's feels like such an important piece today. And it, I see it as part of this, this work around the spiritual malnourishment that you speak of, in your book, that folks are living in this paradigm where we are seeking happiness, where many people are seeking happiness on a very surface level, where we are seeking happiness in the form of consumerism in the form of what can I you know, order on Amazon or GrubHub? That will give me my fix of dopamine, you know, and, and serotonin like, what how can I just get this quick fix of happiness? does that relate to this spiritual malnourishment? And if so, can you speak to that? Yeah,
Joe 19:03
I think, you know, anything I'm going to say is, I just want to clarify, this is just my truth, right? I'm not saying I'm right. It's just how I'm observing it in my limited capacity to understand myself, others and the universe. And I hope it comes across as assessment and not judgment. So I just want to clarify that. That even going back to your question about our people, what if people want to be of service? Are they more wired to do it because what would what would I enjoy doing or what is needed? Right? I work with clients and they're looking for that the questions I ask is, you know, what is your priority? Is it happiness or is it fulfillment, purpose and meaning? So, you know, and for every one that could be different from me, happiness seems lofty, it seems, you know, whereas to me and not in love being happy and but For me, there's a difference than to say instead of being happy what I'm what I'm seeking is purpose and meaning. That's deeper, and then that shifts it. And then and then I talk about creative social activism that you can turn anything you do into into a form of activism. And for me, activism simply means stretching out of your limits and helping others stretch out of theirs to experience the world in a broader way, and maybe more beneficial, loving way, right? So and the example I give is someone wanted to be of service, they felt like I want to do something. And they just and I helped them through the coaching to discover that they're really good at knitting. And they just called up a local senior citizens home and just ask, can I go and sit there, bring needles and yarn, and sit with people for an afternoon and knit with them. And that was that person's act of service. They love doing it. It was an alignment with them, and they shifted those people's lives for that moment. So going back to your question is that you know, on many levels, were seeking something that we may think it's deeper and purpose and finding that it's not fully nourishing us in that way. And that could also be spiritual practice, right at it. A lot of times a lot of ice, a lot of spiritual practice, ends up being simply self soothing. Where, where people might think that that's something that's benefiting a larger group of people, but in essence, it's it's just satisfying something within yourself. It's calming your nervous system. And it's bringing you a level of satisfaction that you've committed to something and there's something wonderful about that. But I do bring up this concept that the world is out of balance, and I the global, the human family has out of balance. Its ailing. And I call it the global heart, the human family as the global heart and the global heart is not well, based on what we're seeing happening. And that the reason that I say if you just look at it, just very simply from if you went to a doctor and a person at heart disease, the doctor would say, yeah, you've got heart disease, you're, uh, you know, your heart's in trouble. Let's look at the various factors one of them is you're not eating a balanced diet. Mm hmm. And so it's, it's, it's out of its it's in an extreme it's not in balance. So usually the doctor would prescribe a diet that was more imbalanced and that's my conclusion about what's happening with the global heart it's it's ailing and that it's it's an it's not well because it's malnourished it's it's technologically overfed and spiritually malnourished. So we're living in a world now where where the intellect rules statistics rule success, success, financial success rules, right you know, the the industrial cup work complex. Oh, you know, all of that. The banking system, the economic system of how many likes do you get on, on on on your social media, all of this is based on consumer consuming and profit or technological advancements. We are technologically advanced for war, weapons and things like that, even even in sciences, you could say, and yet we're spiritually malnourished. Which means we're not investing enough time in the importance of spirituality, but also not in the basic things of basic decency. And our humanity, we're out of balance, the fact that there are so many starving people on this planet, and we're not really and we have the technological capacity to do something about it. And we're not is for me an indication of a symptom of a global heart that is technologically overfed and spiritually malnourished. Hmm.
Wil Fisher 24:11
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I know that a big part of your work is supporting people to connect with their hearts. And I'm present as you're sharing this, that we've got the global heart and then we've got our individual hearts. And what I'm, what I'm connecting is that as we individually connect with our own hearts and learn to give more value and nourishment to our hearts, that creates the possibility of us collectively nourishing and giving value to the global heart.
Joe 24:56
Yeah, it were a part of the global heart No, we can say like we're one cell in that global heart. And we're seeing if you think of each person as a cell in the global heart, just look in the United States that that person who has gets a lot of airtime on, on on in the news, that's one cell in that global heart, which has had such an impact internationally on the global heart just to show you, for those of you who think one person can make a difference, just study that person. And again, not good or bad. But from that perspective, look at the power that that one person has had to infect the global heart in a way that is led to where it is currently. And if that one cell can do it in the in the homemaker of the heart, why not you? Why not me? Why not someone else? But But what are we doing to cultivate our individual cell us as a cell, our hearts, that it becomes infectious, that it be that it spreads, it spreads?
Wil Fisher 26:03
Can you share a little more about what it means to connect with one's heart and what the value of that is? Well,
Joe 26:14
I think it has to do with. First of all, in my in the fear civility book, I talk about skills and strategies of the heart. And there's a whole set of skills to develop, which helps us get back into our hearts out of our heads, and into our bodies in our hearts. And then a whole set of strategies that go along with what I've designed as the six step pathway to hope all of that can lead us to how we can increase our capacity of having a global impact, or a local impact that could have global ramifications. And the first step of that is regulating the nervous system. Because very basically, as long as we're in a trauma state, or we're dysregulated, not only are we not connecting with our reasoning brain, which means our common sense, we're not connecting with common sense, we're also not connected to our hearts, we're too busy. In a fight, flight freeze response, meaning that anything that might seem different or new, will be perceived as a threat, maybe lives. So we're constantly in a survival state. And it's not in those moments, if you think about people who are in a hurricane situation, in the middle of that, or in trauma situations, they're not thinking about taking care of others or worrying about the impact of the words that they say they're just worrying about surviving. So the first step is coming out of this chronic stress drip state or trauma state, to get back to ourselves to get out of our out of that reactive part of our brains, back into our bodies, and into our hearts or bodies, where we're deep wisdom resides, God waste, and also the capacity to use our, our neuro cepting Our art per sit person's perception, to feel into what's happening around us and to cultivate deeper connection with ourselves others, and from there, we can soften our hearts. For me, it's in a sense in a trauma state like that. And what we're seeing with the extreme polarization problem, I think that what's unfolding is a slow process of our hearts getting harder the hardening of our hearts, meaning that we are, we can intellectually say Oh, it's terrible that those 1000 people got crushed by building but we're not really feeling it, or all of the things that are going on now with whatever side you choose to align with in terms of Israel and Gaza. The way we can rationalize and intellectualize and justify the the suffering and death of others. That means on some level, that's a system that is technologically overfed and spiritually malnourished, that we're only can experience it from a statistical intellectual level. And we can't feel it in our hearts. Where our machine resides our wisdom and our love.
Wil Fisher 29:22
Yeah, I love in the book when you speak about a softening of the heart as an act of faith. And, and one of the stories you use to illustrate that is the man who who removed his knife. Would you share a little bit about that, to help the listeners understand this idea of the nervous system needing to be regulated in this sense of safety to be part of the equation to help us connect with our heart?
Joe 29:49
I love how you I love how you preface that into like the knife. What's the knife? So that that story I tell in terms of First of all, the first skill I mentioned I just mentioned was to regulate your nervous system so that you're more in balance. And I mentioned to mention two other skills because it's pertinent to the story is to meet the other where they are. And not try to drag someone, if you want someone to transform their viewpoints, or their habits or their patterns, just to say, Stop doing it, or you're this or you're that doesn't work, or it hasn't worked. So to meet someone where they are, and then create a space of safety and trust, so that their nervous systems can rest, they can start opening their hearts, they can become more receptive and more malleable to the idea of maybe considering shifting their viewpoints habits and patterns, they will not do that shift their viewpoints habits and patterns if they're not feeling safe, and there's not some level of trust. So I bring up the story, because one of the organizations I've worked with now for more than eight years now is a women's rights organization in Gaza, where I worked in, in the West Bank, in near Bethlehem with Western women. And then I was working with the men virtually. And I created a teacher training program for them to basically, it was a brilliant idea that the the women in the women's rights organization, found volunteers, men, who would be willing to become trained as ambassadors to go back into their communities and teach other men how to stop beating their wives, and how to reframe their viewpoints on women and girls, to advocate for women and girls. And so it was in this process that the women were training these men. And you know, as you know, well, because you've been trained in this work, too. So you know, everyone sits in a circle. And one of the fundamental principles it's is, it's in your vulnerability that your true power is revealed. So these women were working with men to create a safe enough space that they could be vulnerable. And, and it worked. I was surprised every time every workshop they did, they would tell me these remarkable stories, and one of the stories was that it was eight modules, eight sessions. And, and, and session three, one of the men raised his hand in the middle of the session and said, I know that we've made commitments and guidelines that we want to create safety and trust. But I have to confess something. And he started telling the story that he comes from a family in Gaza City, which was kind of at war for centuries with another family, kind of like the Capulets, and the Montagues, and Juliet, and that the men never left their homes without having a knife on them for fear that a rock some rival men from the other family, would happen to find this them alone in the street and ambush them. So he said, I have, I want to confess that I have never left my home without having my knife on my person. And that for the last three sessions, this session, I've always had my knife in my pocket. And this is the first time in my life that I truly feel safe enough outside of my home. And he pulled up the knife closed and said, I am now going to place this knife outside of the circle. And yeah, that's the story. That's
Wil Fisher 33:32
yeah, it's beautiful. And I love this story as an illustration of an act of faith to that, that there was still a piece of him that had to have faith in the the humaneness of all in that circle the humanity. And the other piece of brings up for me is the helpful reminder that I use often with my retreats now, and always give you credit. But it's the the insight around the dimmer switch, which I think can serve when we're thinking about the fact of faith of softening our hearts to know that it's not a matter of softening it all the way all the time. And so I'd love it if you could share with the listeners that that
Joe 34:25
wisdom. Sure. It was this idea of a lot of the work since even before the beer civility which is about breaking through a lot of our internal polarization, the the false polarities we hold even with the respectful confrontation work that a lot of the ways we limit ourselves is that we think so much in a binary way. It's either this or that and we only we limit ourselves to two choices and they're usually not good choices because they're extreme. So one of them is you know, in everyone says you should open your heart. You should have an open heart And if you don't take the time to examine it, you're the first thing you think is, oh, they want me to open my heart completely. And I wouldn't recommend that, that anybody does that you maybe do that on your own when you're meditating or with a tree or with a dog or in moments with a loved one. And if you think you have two options, your heart is completely open or completely closed. And unfortunately, we choose to close our hearts. So we have a world of people walking around with their hearts closed, because they think their only other option is open. And that's like having an on off switch on your heart. And I say, let's get rid of the on off switch. And let's upgrade to a dimmer switch, where we have more authority and more send more and more skill and ownership and agency about how open our heart is. And that it's very important to say that if you really want to step more into an off your authentic power, and to be more of an impact in the world, you must understand that the level of how open your heart is, must be in direct proportion with how safe you feel in that moment. And there you also have personal the only person that can tell you, I think how safe you might feel is yourself. And that's not a cognitive thing. So intellectual thing, you feel it in your body. That's what we with this work, we really learned to trust our nervous system, our reptilian brain, it gets a bad rap, we think it's just primitive. But it is really a great tool for us to to step more into our power. So if you're only feeling 35%, safe in the interaction you're having with someone, then I would say if you want to open your heart, it shouldn't be more than 35% open. And if you feel more safe in the interaction with them, then you say, Okay, I'm feeling 65% safe, then you have the choice to open your heart 65%. And if they suddenly do something that triggers you, and then you don't feel safe, and you feel 10%, safe, to take care of yourself, turn the dimmer switch down to 10%. And what gives me hope, will and you know, I say this all the time, that is even if your heart is 1%, open, it's still open. And that means that in the past where our hearts are closed, we don't see solutions. If your heart is even 1% open, then there's 1% chance that a new solution can emerge. healing and reconciliation can happen. Where and yeah, and that is you know, and that's what you were saying I think is beautiful about the man with the knife that he needed faith, to feel that trust. And again, I think that's the key of fierce ability and where I, what gives me hope is that when you can get to that state of open heartedness in a healthy way, and encourage another to be in that space to that's where miracles happen. That's where solutions that don't even exist yet can emerge. And I think that that's what the world needs, the current solutions are not working. And so one could conclude that what we need are new, upgraded, radical, higher frequency solutions. And they may not have been born yet. They may not have emerged in this dimension on this planet yet. And they're waiting for our hearts to open to let them flow out. Cool, yeah,
Wil Fisher 38:42
thank you. I think that dimmer switch piece is so helpful to folks for accessibility for recognizing that they can do this work that they can take one step closer towards this connection that is so valuable, that does tap us into a deeper wisdom or wisdom that can't be copied through AI, you know, as we as AI becomes the thing and we do I experience these technological advances. I know are I sense that this kind of work in the world becomes more and more vital and becomes
the piece that is going to help save humanity? That's my belief anyways, and it feels like as the AI stuff and the technological stuff does advance that seems to get more and more attention and more focus. And, and so I am so appreciative of you for being such a powerful stand for this other way. And I'm curious if you have thoughts on how we might create more of that balance of spiritual nourishment and and technological. Yeah, how we find that balance and how we can alert more people to the need for that balance?
Joe 40:11
Well, I think that it has to do with this idea again. AI is another example of technologically overfed and spiritually malnourished Vironment. And that doesn't mean AI is evil. I'm not saying it's evil. But why are we devoting all of our energy to technologically cultivates these amazing capacities? And why aren't we doing that within ourselves? There's a lack of belief or trust that we can do that. And you know, this, you know, a lot of the practices that I've studied for many years from Taoism, Buddhism, the Taoist alchemy and all of that those are technologies. Bet you know, someone once said, Joe, Don't you mean techniques? I said, No technologies. They're just, there's no metal involved. There's no steel involved. There's no, what do you call those wheels and gadgets? Well, there's no zero ones involved. That, but those are technologies, there's, and and that can be harnessed. As you know, from a lot of traditions with in different traditions, you could cultivate, that human beings have the capacity to levitate and move across the planet quickly, without without needing an airplane for that. So in a sense, we developed a capacity that we're capable of, but we've rebuilt we've trained ourselves to believe that the only way we can do it is if we're sitting in an airplane, etc, etc. You know, we need a we need a telephone to to communicate with one another when we could cultivate other technologies within us where we can do that. Tell him telepathically, perhaps. So where are we putting our time and attention? And, and understanding that, that cultivating the heart is not just a sentimental Hallmark card, the kind of thing? There is an innate transformational power. It's the fuel. You know, in a lot of the traditions that I've studied in this union of wisdom and bliss, right, it's the United States, it's the union of cultivating the wisdom to transcend the limited mind to be able to perceive encompass all of reality, that's a practice and we cultivate the compassionate heart because there is an enormous a atomic energy, oh, in the heart that we can harness and tap into that thing with the with the with the meridians. Those are there's there's there's energy that we can harness. And so part of the practice is understanding the transformational power of the heart, that that that it is possible, talking to your uncle who who has different political views than yours. Or work colleagues that have different religious views? Or, or neighbors that have different views around who you can choose to love and things like that? How can you approve all of fierce abilities? How do you approach them in a way? That a, you're open to the idea that maybe there's something you can learn? Right? And one of the fundamental things is, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be effective. And if you can, and many of us are not being effective, because we're still holding on to this need to be right. So let go of the need to be right. Even though you might be and are more concerned with being effective, and that you learn to stay regulated, meet that person where they are, create safe, trust, and slowly help them open to new ideas. That's a miracle. In this day and age, when people are so stuck in this, their idea that I know the best. So that's a way that's when I say what does it mean to get out of your head and into your heart? It's it's that, you know, and and with the global heart practice that we do now once a month, on Tuesdays, right? It's about cultivating practice of cultivating fierce compassion and resilience, to be able to, not just intellectually, but viscerally kinetically. connect more with loved ones strangers and episodes.
Wil Fisher 44:40
Yeah, that it's not just that this idea, but it's this embodied experience of it. And that's, that's when the energy is actually doing something. That's when the actually the energy really moves is when we're not just talking about it or thinking about it, but doing it in an embodied way. And Yeah, as we start wrapping things up, you've dropped so many deep wisdom bombs in a very short amount of time. That's a very dense conversation. So I do think that it's wise, that looks nice. I apologize. No, please. Are you kidding me? Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm excited for folks to digest it. And I'm curious if there's anything else you want to leave folks with any final words? Yeah,
Joe 45:27
I do. I mean, I, the, for me, what my passion is, is for myself, and to help myself and to help others take all these glorious ideas of a better world and put them into action. To go from idea to action, what is that process, it's an uncomfortable process of taking it from the head into the heart, and through the body. And that's where hope resides. So many of us are ready and wired to do it. And we just have to let go of this idea that just thinking that it should be a better world and, and and all that, that it's all we are talking about it is going to do something about it, and what can we do to get active, and it doesn't have to be the one thing that's going to solve every problem on the planet, you just got to get up and do something. And I and you know, people ask me often, Joe, do you have hope. And I what I say is I'm not very optimistic for what's coming. And I think at this, particularly this year, we're gonna see a lot of hardship. And I have hope for what comes after that. Or within that, I had hope and that human spirit, I hope and what we all have cultivated on our resilience, and so many people around the world who are doing beautiful work, spiritual work, humanitarian work, peace work. And so that's what I want to say is and how do you become? My thing is how do you become what I call a catalyst for fierce hope? What can you do to be to cultivate your own fierce hope and be a catalyst to activate others fierce hope? And that's what's going to see us through.
Wil Fisher 47:12
Beautiful, yeah, and I feel this invitation to make that choice to make that courageous choice to be a catalyst for fierce hope.
Joe 47:22
Yes. If not, now, when?
Wil Fisher 47:27
If not, now, when? Why don't we leave? Why don't we end with those words, they use so much show this has been a total pleasure as expected. And I love you so much. Thank you for all your work in the world.
Joe 47:38
Love you. Well, and thank you, and thank you for all that you're holding in the world and, and the gifts that you're bringing. Thank
Wil Fisher 47:43
you for listening, folks. Please check the show notes to learn more about Joe and get a link to his TED Talk. And also get info on his monthly global heart gathering which is a free virtual offering a great way to connect with Joe and be a part of the movement. You can also find links to connect with me. I'm always so happy to hear from you. Thanks again for listening and have a beautiful day and a wonderful week. Oh my god is Beloved's. What a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay. And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace
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