Innovation & Menu Development w/ Rosio Sanchez, Arielle Johnson, Ryan Chetiyawardana & Thomas Frebel

#58. Dive into an exhilarating episode of The meez Podcast recorded live at The Chef Conference in Philadelphia. This special installment features a dynamic panel discussion hosted by our founder and CEO, Josh Sharkey, with four culinary luminaries, each bringing a unique blend of creativity, science, and innovation to the table.

Join us as we engage with Rosio Sanchez, the esteemed former pastry chef at Noma and now thriving as the chef and founder of Sanchez and Hija de Sanchez in Copenhagen. Alongside her, experience the insightful musings of Arielle Johnson, PhD, a flavor scientist and co-founder of the Fermentation Lab, who has advised some of the world's top chefs and authored the book "Flavorama."

The conversation also includes Ryan Chetiyawardana, aka Mr. Lyan, a cocktail virtuoso recognized globally for his award-winning bars and innovative drink creations. Completing the panel is Thomas Frebel, former head of R&D for Noma, who has continued to push culinary boundaries as the chef of the Michelin-starred Inua in Japan and now as the creative director at Noma.

This episode delves deep into the intricacies of menu development, the blend of scientific and creative approaches in culinary arts, and the continuous pursuit of innovation. From discussing when a dish feels complete to exploring R&D processes and the essence of collaboration, this panel covers it all.

Where to find Ryan Chetiyawardana:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Where to find Rosio Sanchez: 

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Where to find Arielle Johnson: 

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Where to find Thomas Frebel:

• Instagram

Where to find host Josh Sharkey:

• Instagram
• LinkedIn
• TikTok
• Twitter

In this episode, we cover:

(04:27): Introductions
(06:05): When do you know that a dish is done?
(18:53): How do you combat analysis paralysis?
(33:22): Arielle's book and why it's important to understand why.
(42:41): How do you balance that absence of pragmatism when you're coming up with new ideas?
(59:22): Q&A from the audience

Transcript

[00:00:00] Josh Sharkey: 

You're listening to season two of The meez Podcast. I'm your host, Josh Sharkey, the founder and CEO of meez, a culinary operating system for food professionals. On the show, we're going to talk to high performers in the food business, everything from chefs to CEOs, technologists, writers, investors, and more about how they innovate and operate and how they consistently execute at a high level.

[00:00:24] 

And I would really love it if you could drop us a five star review anywhere that you listen to your podcast. That could be Apple, that could be Spotify, could be Google. I'm not picky. Anywhere works. But I really appreciate the support. And as always, I hope you enjoy the show. 

[00:00:43] Josh Sharkey: 

All right, ladies and gentlemen. This is a special episode of The meez Podcast in that it was an interview that I did in person, a panel at The Chef Conference in Philadelphia run by the incredible Mike Traud. And this was a panel with four just unbelievable culinary all stars, if you will. And we talked about menu development and things related to innovation, iteration, creativity, and you know the drill.

[00:01:17] Josh Sharkey: 

The things that I love to dig into. So we had Rosio Sanchez, former pastry chef from restaurant Noma, and now the chef and founder of Sanchez and Hija de Sanchez in Copenhagen, Arielle Johnson, who is this incredible, Flavor scientist. She has a PhD from UC Davis. She advises, like, some of the most incredible chefs around the world.

[00:01:41] 

She's just sort of a savant and expert on why things taste the way they do, why food reacts the way that it does. She's the co founder of the Fermentation Lab. She was the science officer for Alton Brown's show, Good Eats. The list goes on. She's also the author of the new book, Flavorama, which everyone on the panel knows.

[00:02:02] 

Actually, and everyone who was viewing the panel got as a gift, which is pretty incredible. And she signed the books. But we had Ryan Chetiyawardana, also called Mr. Lyan. He is this world renowned, which is sort of downplaying what he is. He's a proprietor of some of the most incredible cocktail bars in the world.

[00:02:20]

He has one best cocktail bar in the world. He's one best bartender in the world. He's one bartender. Person of the decade. He's based in UK. I were personality of the decade. Just the list goes on. He's just an incredible developer of flavors in drinks among many other things. The last guest was chef Thomas Frebel, who was the head of R&D for restaurant Noma for A decade and then open up the two Michelin star spot called Inua Japan, and now is the creative director at Noma.

[00:02:53] 

So man, we had a blast and these four actually have a conversation similar to what we talked about somewhat often. And we chatted about a week before the panel. And what I heard from. All of them among praising each other was that they wished that they could record their conversations. So that we did.

[00:03:13] 

And we recorded this panel live in Philly in front of an incredible audience. And we talked about everything from when does a dish feel done to their process of R&D and creativity, thinking through sort of having an absence of pragmatism when we're starting from zero to one of a new idea, how we approach collaboration, And the difference between the scientific approach and the creative approach and just so much more and we topped it off with a live birthday singing for Arielle because it was actually her birthday that day And had a delicious cake as well and just all in all Man, just an incredible experience.

[00:03:54] 

And I'm so excited to share it with all of you. We did have a little issue with the audio recording, mostly on my mic. I think everybody else's was, was pretty good. So apologies if you have a little trouble hearing my questions, but that's kind of the least important part of the conversation. So we should be good.

[00:04:13] 

And as always, I know it goes without saying, but I hope that you enjoy the As much as I did.

[00:04:27] 

Well, I'm excited. Is everybody excited here? Very excited. Also, we spoke last week and the conversation that you're going to hear today is something that these four have fairly often. And a few of them at least said, I wish we could record this. So, now you're all miked up, outside of this, and we're gonna send you the recording.

[00:04:52] 

So, we have a lot to talk about. We also need to give a shout out to a bunch of things. We have a little surprise at the end that we're gonna do, and everyone's gonna need to stay for this surprise. Everybody probably knows everyone here, but I'll do a quick background, starting backwards. Arielle, well, Fords, I guess.

[00:05:10] 

Flavor scientist. Oracle to some of the greatest chefs in the world, I would say. Author of Flavorama. Does everybody have the book? Ryan Chetiyawardana, aka Mr. Lyan. bartender extraordinaire proprietor Awards like person of the decade world's greatest bartender world's greatest bar Most handsome man on the Milky Way.

[00:05:39] 

It just goes on Thomas Frebel is a part of a Noma and creative director at Noma projects his restaurant in Tokyo in a Inua, closed in the pandemic and Thomas is now based in Copenhagen and the former pastry chef of Noma and now proprietor of Sanchez and Hija de Sanchez in Copenhagen, Rosio Sanchez. So welcome everybody and thank you for being here.

[00:06:05] 

So we are going to talk today about ideation, iteration, the process of this creativity, innovation, and how all of your beautiful minds work. And I want to start at the end of the process and kind of work our way backwards. So, You know, you all work on dishes, or products, or drinks for months and months, or sometimes years before they ever go on a menu, and even then, once they're on a menu, you know, they're still tweaking, and iteration, and things like that, and my first question for each of you is, when do you know that a dish is done?

[00:06:45] 

Done that. You can sort of check that box that, okay, I don't need to mess with this anymore. It's good to go. And I'm going to go sort of at the end. So Rosio, why don't you kick us off? 

[00:06:57] Rosio Sanchez: 

For me, I guess it's a all about like taste and especially when working with a group, I try to look that. First of all, that I'm like, it cannot taste any better.

[00:07:06] 

It hits everything. But then, uh, the second part of that is giving it to my trusted colleagues around me. And if they all think is as fantastic as I think it is, then I think it's, it's good to go. But I think if, if some people are like, Oh, I don't, I don't get it. Um, I think it's worth working on because you have, uh, a wide range of people that are going to be tasting that, that you have to kind of consider that everyone should be happy with it as, as, or as happy as you are.

[00:07:35] 

So I think it's important to, you know, I also sometimes, um, give it to a random person in our workplace that maybe doesn't necessarily is involved in the creative process, but just say, what do you think about this and have them taste it and if they really, really love it the same way, I think it's done, but I think it should still feel that way because sometimes you can unfortunately get into like this rabbit hole of tasting the same thing over and over and then you think it's It's super amazing.

[00:08:02] 

Or maybe you're just tired of it and you're like, I'm tired of tasting it. It's done. Uh, but it has to still have that spark. Uh, so yeah, sometimes it can be very fast and sometimes, um, it takes a bit longer and it can take months. And sometimes it is, as you said, you revisit it in another, you know, Or in, uh, the year later, but you've already started an idea.

[00:08:24] 

So it's something like maybe not right now, but maybe next season we'll, 

we'll get, we'll get it. And it's sometimes, sometimes it develops. 

[00:08:33] Thomas Frebel: 

So the way it works for us actually at Noma in the test kitchen is very similar to what Rosio was saying. It's a group of people. a very trusted group of people who has been working together for quite some time.

[00:08:45] 

And we start amongst us having a, uh, an open dialogue, really. Okay. Really? What do you think? And do you like it? Why do you like it? Or also very often, why is it you don't like it? And then we, we work on it. And once we get to a moment where We believe a dish is done. It goes further down the line and we present it to our beverage team as they also need to work with those flavors to our service team and then also to a very trusted group of regulars of the restaurant who will give us their honest opinion.

[00:09:26] 

Um, and if all those stars are aligned, then, um, it's one of those high five moments and we, we carry on. Um, but also having that set. I think a dish is never done. I mean, maybe a guideline to a dish is, um, is on, on a piece of paper. But as we all know, ingredients change most of the time on daily basis.

[00:09:50] 

Looking at the summer, if, you know, if the sun was shining for, for three days, most likely the tomatoes will be incredible. And you don't need to do much to that tomato. But if it was raining for a week, you might just going to take it off because it's very unlikely that the tomato will cross those boxes.

[00:10:07] Mr Lyan: 

Unsurprisingly, there's a lot of that I'll echo in that. But the only other thing I think is sometimes when we're developing a recipe is we will have an idea in mind about what it needs to represent. And that might be emotion around it might be, it might reference something. The like a classic that people will know, and it needs to ground in that, and so we'll often do a little bit of back and forth as a group, and it's not about committee.

[00:10:30] 

It's just about making sure everybody agrees that it's hitting the premise that we're trying to represent by this particular recipe or or this iteration that we're putting out. So it will be a little bit of back and forth about going. Does that Kind of represent everything that we want it to be. Um, do we need to tweak it in terms of the presentation or any of the kind of like final details to make sure it delivers in, in the way that we want to?

[00:10:52] 

But I think similarly, there'll be points where we'll come back to something where we've done a recipe for, for a certain period of time. And, you know, I think this was more acutely observed when we were doing it of stuff reflecting on several years past and recipes that were kind of historically part of the company and going, well, not only.

[00:11:10] 

Do you get the variants and ingredients and you know that there might be something at the wrong point in its season, but also your palate might have changed to it. What you have put in front of people, the way that they've interacted with it has changed. So you'll do kind of little tweaks. So it's never quite fully finished.

[00:11:25] 

Um, and I think as something that's organic, it's not about being kind of yeah. Totally dialed in and staying firm to that because I think any of the stuff that we we see is the kind of recipes is they are the guidelines rather than being kind of the hard and fast rules of it. 

[00:11:39] Arielle Johnson: 

I'm a terrible example to follow. So don't don't do this. But for me, it's really only done when, like, I'm, uh, Uh, forced by, uh, contractual obligations or deadlines or, uh, or guests literally arriving, uh, uh, then it's done. So they're, they're much better at this than I am. Yeah. 

[00:11:59] Josh Sharkey: 

That makes sense. 

[00:12:00] Arielle Johnson: to give, yeah, to give you the full picture, that's me.

[00:12:02] Josh Sharkey: 

You know, I'm just recalling, like, I remember seeing, I think an Instagram post once of, oh yeah, that didn't make it on the menu. Uh, and I think it was, we've seen Rene post it a couple of times. You know, what I'm curious about is, how do you, how do you synthesize and process this feedback that you get from your customers, from your team, from your colleagues, you know, from yourself?

[00:12:23] 

Are there, are there frameworks that you use? Because food is sometimes subjective, sometimes it's not, often it's, it's objective, but, you know, something If it's disgusting, it's disgusting. But then there's sort of, you know, polarizing lines, right? Where some people don't like this, but they like this. Are there any mental models or frameworks that you all use to process and synthesize the feedback that you get before you decide something is at least close to done enough that you feel good enough to keep it going?

[00:12:52] Thomas Frebel: 

I think it starts with two very different, uh, very simple questions. It's. Do you like it or do you don't like it? And then you can continue. Why is it you like it or why is it you don't like it? And I think that's also those questions, even for us as professionals, um, something you need to ask yourself probably every day to become better.

[00:13:11] 

And also for what Ryan is doing, because sometimes it's also, it's just like what you don't like about it is actually exactly what we wanted to create or to achieve. And then maybe. It is isn't as as bad as you may think or it's for that matter, maybe much better than what we're hoping it to be. So, but then also what Rosio was saying, the issue is working.

[00:13:37] 

creatively in a test kitchen or whatever, any creative environment. Sometimes you go so deep down the rabbit hole that you lose everything else around it. And, and then you're trying to, to tweak like this. Is it one more grain of salt or two more grains of salt or less? But actually the grain of salt doesn't matter anymore because you have gone off so far that you know, you actually need to find a way out and, and see the whole thing from, from afar again.

[00:14:04] 

And that's where also feedback from other colleagues or regulars or, or the beverage team can be very, very helpful. 

[00:14:12] Rosio Sanchez: 

I was going to say, I think it's important to also, um, like the reason set like said item is, is being worked on and whether that translates to who's ever having it, uh, because we. You could nerd out easily and be like, Oh, this is so cool.

[00:14:27] 

Cause it's referencing, referencing this and then that, and instead of this, we're using that. And then it's a, someone will have it and they're like, what the hell is this? I don't know. I don't, I don't relate to this, you know, it's unrelatable. So that's one issue that could happen. And I think that's sort of like hinders a little bit creativity.

[00:14:45] 

Like you want to do this thing. But in our sense, for example, like if we wanted to do this specific mole and we're using this and that and, but people don't get what a mole is, first of all, in Scandinavia, then it's sort of lost. Like, we've been very careful to not. Uh, when we opened Sanchez, because, uh, you know, I had a lot of experience with the guys at Noma and it's been really exciting to be able to push all those limits.

[00:15:14] 

But then when you have in a restaurant like, like my, myself, where it's a Mexican restaurant in a place where people don't know how to eat a taco, then it's very important that our creativity is maybe on. You know, how to, how to be creative in a way that is still creative, but not over the top, like here is, um, you know, uh, whatever kind of mole that people are like, what's a mole I have no idea what a mole is.

[00:15:40] 

And I think then, then we have to work on, okay, let's do a. Let's work on a green mole, which is very traditional, a mole verde, but like we're going to use our, you know, local ingredients and Scandinavian wild herbs and, you know, maybe a little bit of Jerusalem artichoke. That's not very normal in a mole, but it's there, you know, like we can work creatively in other ways that still fulfills us, but isn't going to get lost.

[00:16:04] 

And I think that's when it's, it becomes a conversation worth respecting of When you're making a dish and who's tasting it, what's the feedback? And then processing that feedback so it's, you don't take it personal. You kind of realize what, who are you cooking for and why? And what, why is that dish on the menu or drink?

[00:16:23] Arielle Johnson: 

I also just wanted to interject back to the, uh, Scandinavians don't understand what a taco is. When you opened Hija, we actually had to make a poster about how to eat a taco with your hands, because a lot of Danish people really don't understand eating with your hands. So the educational component can also be, you know, sometimes external to the dish.

[00:16:42] Mr Lyan: 

And I think that bit is really crucial when you're getting that point of connection when you're putting it in front of guests rather than kind of like internally as a team. It's about exactly that. Does it track with them? Does it become relatable? Does it something that's connection? And sometimes we realize we might have got something.

[00:16:56] 

Exactly right from what we think is the right flavors, the right name, the right connections. And then you put it in front of something, you know, we have a habit of wanting to do things that are fairly weird as well. So you're kind of going, well, are people okay with this? Like, have we got the right communication around that?

[00:17:12] 

And that's, that's not necessarily then changing the recipe. It's changing all of the ways in which we pitch it and kind of talk about it. So it's not freaking people out and it's kind of giving the right sense of, um, Opportunity for people to then dive into what it tastes like and explores. But even when we're also on the similar side, when we're doing it for the teams and that kind of internal development, it's, you know, we try and get a point of like parity of language because to the points about what do you like about this?

[00:17:37] 

What don't you like about it? It's, you know, flavor is quite a hard thing to describe. Um, so how do you get into ways of trying to, you know, I learned this very early on in the days where I'd be like, Oh, it needs more pink or something like that. And like, yeah. You know, language that wasn't necessarily universal to everybody to try and describe.

[00:17:53] 

But it means now as a team and particularly are kind of like, yeah, there's something to really help around this. Um, but it's true, you know, there wasn't many resources before, before things like this to help people kind of get on the same level to, to then be able to, because you know, you want to be able to be answering the same question together.

[00:18:12] 

Um, and so using some of that language to make sure you're working on it in the right iterations rather than going, Oh, I just want to add this. 

[00:18:20] Josh Sharkey: 

This is so much fun, by the way. I'm going to divert a bit because, Arielle, I think if we asked you how you process feedback as a scientist, the scientific method and Likert scales or Weider matrix, there's probably a whole rabbit hole there, but I have some questions on that that we're going to go into in a bit, but, uh, we're going to get to that.

[00:18:36] 

But, um, Rosio, mentioned Molle. And it makes me think of, you know, a problem with creativity, which is analysis paralysis, right? You just overwork. I mean, you have a mole and right, do I want to use, you could use any nut and any dried fruit. Do I just change the nut? Do I need to start food? I'm using pork fat.

[00:18:53] 

Should I try another kind of, there's so many different things that you could think of. I'm curious, especially for you all, how do you combat Analysis paralysis over engineering a dish and I guess a through line to that is are the ways in which you create Creative boundaries within your business your you know your ideas so that you can prevent that? 

[00:19:17] Mr Lyan: 

It's a huge question, but I think this Yes. Um, the creative boundaries, I think, is one of the key ones that we do. And I think for each of the projects we work on, they have their own set of restrictions. And we very much play to that as a way of of trying to push us in a particular direction. And, you know, a lot of the work that we do at first to develop things is, Sounds strange, but it's more on paper than it is kind of like working through things.

[00:19:42] 

Of course, if we come across something, if we've been experimenting on a technique, we come across an amazing ingredient that might be the starting point. But often we're kind of, you know, we often start with stories and we start with, you know, the whole team and we start in very lateral ways of looking at things before we're getting into any of the minutia.

[00:19:58] 

So it means that we can start to to kind of create those boundaries and set it on a path before we've even started getting into flavors and development of how do we layer that up in into a finalized recipe. So a big part of it for us is, is framing the question, making sure that we're actually purposefully putting in the restrictions so we're not actually making it feel so, kind of chaotic of having everything so wide is actually finding a way to force it together.

[00:20:26] Josh Sharkey: 

I definitely want to hear from everyone, but maybe tactically, is there a example of that that you can think of that you've done either recently or in the past? 

[00:20:34] Mr Lyan: 

Well, in a very much kind of restriction sense, sometimes it's just the kind of physicality of things. You know, we know that if we put something, you know, when we first worked with, with Arielle, it was, you know, working on Koji, we have this drink called the Koji heartshake and the plan was to be able to use Koji as an ingredient rather than as a transformative agent as part of the flavor of this drink.

[00:20:53] 

Uh, and then we realized that at Danline we're going to pump out a thousand cocktails in a night and the amount of Koji we'd need to produce is not going to work. Uh, so we, we then worked, Just kind of putting up restrictions around it from a physical point of view to go. Okay, how do we then get around this path?

[00:21:06] 

But often it will be much wider will give the team a brief and it will be a word. It will be a title. And so you know that they're looking for stories that express within that created boundary. So for our team, previous menu at lioness, for example, there was a thing called we called our ancestral cookbook and it was looking at ways in which we find kind of commonality between each other, not to do with uh, kind of blood lineage or genetics or anything like that.

[00:21:29] 

How do we find our chosen families and what ways in which we as You know cultures gather together and find commonality so within that they can go explore and that's the restrictions of what they have to do Before we then start taking things away from them That's often what we try and do more than anything else to be able to kind of focus it in a bit I don't know if that does answer that.

[00:21:52] Thomas Frebel: 

Well, I think Boundaries are also one of the greatest source of creativity. Um, and you can be as simple as that. We limit ourselves to our region. What I believe a lot of chefs do in our days. And of course, with that region comes culture, with that region comes seasonality, it comes micro seasons.

[00:22:15] 

It comes even to that extent, you know, the, the weather changes from one day to another. So should we serve, uh, a cold broth? Uh, vice versa, a hot broth or a drink for that matter. And why does the broth doesn't taste as good when it is cold, uh, vice versa, it's hot. And then you call Arielle and Arielle can, can tell us how to fix it.

[00:22:39] Arielle Johnson: 

I mean, and there's also like, I mean, I think Noma is a great example of like pretty extreme like geographic limitations. So it's like, not only can you use seasonal ingredients, but like lemons and wine vinegar are not allowed anymore. So then how do you find. Like, things to even cook. 

[00:22:55] Josh Sharkey: 

Was that a thing?

[00:22:56] Arielle Johnson: 

Hm? 

[00:22:56] Josh Sharkey: 

Was that a thing? Lemon and wine vinegar were not allowed? 

[00:22:58] Arielle Johnson: 

Yeah, well, lemon, lemons, and lemons don't grow in Scandinavia, and, uh, I mean, I guess there's that one tiny island. in like southern Denmark that has wine, but like for the most part, there's not, uh, so I think, I mean, at least for stuff that I worked on, you know, doing like the fermentation lab and stuff, that was, that was a big driver of like, okay, so how are we going to like, you know, fill out our palate of, uh, of flavors as, but I know it's like kind of a basic example, but, uh, 

[00:23:27] Thomas Frebel: 

And then of course, another, for example, boundaries also simply a resources. Um, you know, how much people, how much space do you actually have to prepare or assemble whatever you're planning to do? Then you can also say, okay, do whatever you want to call it. Do you want to call it complex simplicity? Um, you know, maybe we spend some more time working with Arielle.

[00:23:49] 

How can we create, ferment more flavors, uh, which will last longer and which will help us to assemble dishes easier. When we are actually in service, so it doesn't require as much time. It doesn't require as much, uh, uh, chefs to, to, to do it. And 

[00:24:07] Rosio Sanchez: 

I was going to say the very obvious is seasonality. Like we're just, uh, like every other chef working with, uh, what's available.

[00:24:15] 

And in Copenhagen, that's very limiting in the summer. And in the winter, there's like very short seasons for certain things. So that's, That's already a great, uh, tool to go by. Um, and if you know what you're expecting, you can kind of work on that. Uh, but also for us, I mean, I've had the privilege of working with Noma and having all these awesome experiences of having the ability to do anything you want, but we have, like, we can't do that.

[00:24:43] 

So when we make a dish, we're like, there's no way we can do that. That's too much work. So we just have to sort of like work, make the best dish we can make. And then say, okay, how do we. Still deliver that idea, but tone it, tone it down a bit. And also for us at that, it still has to have a, this, this feeling of, uh, being fed in a Mexican restaurant, like that's very important for me.

[00:25:07] 

And I think also having the knowledge of not crossing, uh, regions. for Mexico, like we would never do a mole in a salbute or something like that. So I think that's, those are other restrictions where we say, like, if we're using a flour tortilla for something, we have to know sort of like, it's coming from the north of Mexico, what's available over there.

[00:25:27] 

And does it make sense what we're filling in it? We're not going to put whatever we want on it. We want to sort of believe that if we had a restaurant in Mexico, it could be there. It could exist, but it also exists in Copenhagen and it has like the Copenhagen vegetables or whatever we have that's different to, to Mexico.

[00:25:44] 

That's very important for me. And we, we always have that kind of restriction in a way where we think about, and that requires also like knowing the different parts of Mexico, how everything is different and, and kind of, uh, applying that to Copenhagen, which is like the opposite, opposite of Mexico. 

[00:26:01] Josh Sharkey: 

You know, it really does seem like some of these are forcibly synthetically created boundaries, even, you know, because you don't have to do that. You could, you know, there's a Molojico in Veracruz and there's, and there's one in Oaxaca and you've just, you know, you decide those things. So it is to your point, it seems like it's a necessity, right. To have, it's chaos without it.

[00:26:22] Rosio Sanchez: 

I think I've also had a, um, a different experience where I worked at WD50 many years ago. And, um, That was a hyper creative restaurant. And we also had like, you could, you could put anything you want on the plate. That's also very hard because you're like, whatever you want and you're in a New York and it's, it's like the, the center of, uh, you know, all cuisine.

[00:26:47] 

So you can. You know, do something Japanese, something Mexican, something, you know, it's, it's just, uh, it can be a little overwhelming as well. So when I left and I went to Noma, it was, uh, almost a relief, like, Oh, cool. We can only use this, but then it's very hard. I think it's important to put yourself some boundaries like that because it forces you to look at things that maybe you would have overlooked.

[00:27:09] 

Ingredients you would have overlooked. Oh, potatoes. I don't want to use that. Well, like really try to do something with a potato. I remember we worked on a, potato dessert for months before it went on. And it was like, I don't want to be a chef anymore. I'm not good enough anymore. No, but I, I, it requires a lot of work.

[00:27:28] 

And I think that's sort of the, the cool thing about, uh, having restrictions is that you sort of force yourself to see something and something you. You might have not given it a second thought because it's so common, you know, and I think that's really, really cool and worth trying. 

[00:27:43] Arielle Johnson: 

Well, and like one of my, actually two of my favorite of your early dishes at Hija and Sanchez were like a chicharron taco, except the chicharron was cod skin, which is like super Scandinavian ingredient and also like worked in the context.

[00:27:57] 

And then, um, I don't know if you, because I, sorry, I haven't, I've been very remiss in coming into Sanchez in the past couple years, but you once had this agua chile where you were using rhubarb juice instead of lime juice, which is like, I mean, rhubarb juice, who juices rhubarb? But if you like need acids and there's rhubarb all around, because it's Northern Europe, of course you do that.

[00:28:16] 

Um, and, and like the synthesis of that just like worked like perfectly for that. So I think that's, yeah, a nice, uh, I don't know, evolution. 

[00:28:25] Rosio Sanchez: 

Yeah, well, we opened, um, nine years ago because of Sanchez. Now we have five locations and, uh, one restaurant. So I feel like now I'm like, okay, we can maybe work on that crazy mole or whatever.

[00:28:39] 

Uh, but it has been, uh, you know, something very careful, uh, on my, in my part, because also opening how, Was, uh, for a different purpose, like to bring delicious Mexican food and, um, and bring up the value of people's perception of Mexican food. Not, not because I wanted to, uh, make crazy moles and all that. I think there was a different purpose, but we also have the restaurant where I'm like, okay, we can be a little bit more creative.

[00:29:05] 

It's very important that people like it. Right. I think that's super important that it doesn't get lost and, and having people, uh, you know, You know, have the high quality ingredients that we're, we're delivering. It's been very important to me, but I finally am feeling like maybe we can do a little more, but yeah, people are still having, you know, Mexican food, food at first time in our restaurants and stuff like that.

[00:29:28] 

Uh, we have a lot of people coming from the outside that understand Mexican food. Maybe it sounds crazy to even say that, but it's, you know, we are. And I believe that when we opened, uh, much like the conversation earlier, like we opened for. Our community in Copenhagen. We're not opening like for me. It's like so Like the little European kids are having tacos and that's really cool to me because I came from, um, my parents are from Mexico.

[00:29:54] 

They came to Chicago. I grew up in Chicago and I grew up eating a lot of Mexican food in La Villita. And I always had this thought of like, Oh, it would be cool to have this community, like neighborhood spot where people are just growing up with it. It's just a part of your Like everyday life, like going to get a taco.

[00:30:13] 

That's been the biggest goal of mine. And there's also like the itch of being more creative. That's like always there. But I try to focus that on like specific events. Uh, like Thomas did one with us recently, uh, in January. So like maybe focusing that itch on like creative events where I can go all in and we can specifically, uh, show something and say, this is.

[00:30:37] 

Not Mexican. You know, I had a funny story because we had, um, We've had all these events all the time where we invite like Michelin chefs and people that have never done sort of tacos and that kind of fast casual service. I think it's really fun to introduce them to that and also to have like people that don't have access to like Michelin restaurants or maybe don't think about it having that attention on a plate.

[00:31:03]

Just get in line and have it. I think that's so cool. Uh, and much more interesting than like a four hands dinner. So that's why we do it. Uh, and one year, it was the first year that we did it. We had a super, uh, one of my favorite chefs, uh, from then in Tokyo, he came to do a pop up with us and we had some local guys, they were like, this isn't Mexican food and why is this a bunch of Chinese people in the kitchen?

[00:31:29] 

And we're like, what? But it's completely lost. And you're like, well, no, we're not making, we're, we're, we're making a Okonomiyaki tacos. So it's like, this is clearly not Mexican. Um, but it's also a realization of like, who are the people that are coming to eat with us? And we also have to respect that. And kind of like, as you said earlier, how do you communicate that?

[00:31:53] 

You have the communication around it is so important, you can't just do it, you kind of have to like lead up to it and, and let people know, just so you know, this and this and this. And I think that's very important. So yeah, there's been an evolution. Thank you for the question. 

[00:32:07] Josh Sharkey: 

You know, that's a great segue into Arielle, I'm going to tee some stuff up for you, which we'll address in a second.

[00:32:13] 

But what's so interesting from hearing that is, You know, we think of in the kitchen, right? You have to teach a cook the premise of of a gastrique or of mole and understand, you know, the technique itself before you can then iterate on it. Never thought about that. You also have to educate the consumer on the basic thing before you can give them a new version of it.

[00:32:34] 

And it leads to. I'm just sort of going to segue into this, even if it doesn't or not. Understanding why. Right? Understanding why things work or why they don't work. And for what I can understand you all, um, often we'll ping Arielle with why the heck does this not work or work. And Arielle, this is going to be for you and then we'll sort of tee up the rest of the group of the importance of understanding why things work.

[00:32:59] 

the science behind things. Why is that important? And then the through line being, oftentimes we start with the creativity, and then we try to understand why. And that's when you call Arielle. The other way would be that you deeply understand why something works, and then you get creative off of that. And I'm curious how you all think about the juxtaposition of those two.

[00:33:22] 

But let's tee it off with. This book and why, why it's important to understand why. 

[00:33:29] Arielle Johnson: 

Well, yeah, I mean, and I am, I am also interested in, well, something I think about a lot is like for, not for me, but for people who are actually like cooking and serving and being practical, like what, what is the like inflection point or crisis point where like you do go and.

[00:33:45] 

You know, decide that you need to go deeper and do something really, uh, inconvenient, like, uh, you know, spend, spend weeks on R&D or start a lab or something like that. Yeah, for me, I mean, I, I got into science because I loved food and wanted to understand it more than I started working with restaurants after I started being a scientist.

[00:34:05] 

So it's all kind of been like, you know, two halves of the same coin for me. Yeah, I mean, for for me, if I'm interested in something, I want to know, like, everything about it and how it works. Um, Personally, I have, I have trouble doing things if I don't understand how they work, so I'd be a very terrible, like, cook to have during service, because I, like, if you tell me to do something, I actually, like, can't do it until I understand why I'm doing it.

[00:34:32] 

Personality flaw, in some cases, in some cases, uh, very, uh, very useful. Yeah, just do it. Just do it. Like, but why? Like, not, not like I want to challenge you, like, don't tell me what to do, but like, but why, why am I doing it? But, uh, yeah, I mean, something, you know, something I've seen, I mean, even, even in, like, hobbies, where I, like, learn, you know, not just what, like, instruct, the instructions are, but, like, the mechanisms behind it, and in, uh, you know, with, with food and food chemistry, and, um, uh, yeah, everything like that, is that, uh, For me, once you, once you understand how something works, you can kind of like move beyond the kind of surface level definition you have of it and, uh, kinda like get under the hood and make it, make it work how you want.

[00:35:18] 

So, yeah, I mean, a lot, a lot of people I think get, get an association of science being like, you know, like this, this is the correct answer. This is the sensible thing to do. This is rational. Like you must do it this way. It's very controlled, um, for me. I, I think understanding, yeah, the mechanisms of something opens up like a wonderful amount of like chaotic possibility.

[00:35:42] 

So that's why I like it so much. 

[00:35:45] Mr Lyan: 

Yeah. I mean, I think there's, there's a, I suppose a bit of a. Professional degree as well. When you're, you're getting into something, you want to understand it to help you, like, as Arielle said, to, to kind of understand the, the way it works, to be able to see what you can play in amongst that.

[00:35:59] 

Uh, I think there's a big part of it, but I think also, you know, it's been amazing being able to call on, on Arielle for some of these things, because, you know, particularly when you're using novel ingredients and it sounds like a throwaway statement, but the number of times I've kind of seen things where I'm like, that doesn't actually seem very safe and you know, that's fine when you're doing stuff like.

[00:36:17] 

You know, we've worked with some wet ingredients, and that's, you know, you need to understand what's different about it. But sometimes it's just you're working with perishable ingredients. Pathogens are a real issue. We work with booze. It's a very good solvent. We can extract things that are potentially dangerous.

[00:36:31] 

So, you know, also having somebody to call on who, uh, who knows the science is very helpful for that. And, you know, it really does seem that there's, you know, as the kind of world of food and drink expands, you know, I'm I'm hopeful people do kind of keep curious and geeky on those things because we definitely don't want to be hurting people.

[00:36:49] 

But I think it's also, you know, I, I've always seen kind of like science and arts is the same thing. It's like, how do you then get to that point of being rigorous in your processing? It's hard to understand what you can create if you can't work out what you're controlling. And so being able to kind of take some of those insights and it's been amazing being able to, to kind of work with Arielle for almost 15 years and, you know, learn about kind of ways in which, you know, You're changing something here, and that's gonna have this knock on effect.

[00:37:17] 

And I think it's not just, you know, not everybody gets to have a super brilliant doctor on call to be able to ask questions off. But I think it's actually learning the insights of of going well when you're going through this process. Check in on these things, like observe this, because that's what we should be doing as creatives anyway, is doing that observation piece and going, okay, this is what's happened as a result of my experimentation, my explorations in these things.

[00:37:42] 

And you know, that as a process, I think, is a very powerful one to learn. 

[00:37:47] Arielle Johnson: 

An example you're reminding me of with, you know, Let's, uh, figure out the basics so we can do it right. Like, very, very early on at the fermentation lab at Noma, a lot of the, um, like, sous chefs and, and Chef de Partie were doing their own projects and explorations, which is great, um, that it was, like, an environment where, where that could happen.

[00:38:05] 

And, uh, somebody was trying to make a vinegar, and, like, it kept failing over and over again, so they're trying to ferment juice into vinegar, which is something that we'd done with things like celery juice and, you know, Uh, squash juice and things like that and they're like, well, why isn't it working? And I was like, okay, so walk me through like what you did and they're like, well, I took, I took, you know, this, this like berry juice and I added vinegar to it and then I put the like airstone in because I know I see you guys doing that and needs to get bubbled with oxygen and it's just nothing's happening.

[00:38:33] 

I'm like, well, did you add alcohol? to it, and they were like, why would I add alcohol to it? I'm like, well, if you're doing an acidic fermentation, the acetic acid bacteria that makes the vinegar isn't eating like sugars or whatever it's in the juice, it eats alcohol. So that's why we have like wine vinegar and malt vinegar and you know, cider vinegar and stuff like that.

[00:38:51] 

So it was like, so you need to add alcohol to get it to work. And they were like, I had no idea that that was. And so, you know, I didn't know that either. Yeah. 

[00:38:59] Josh Sharkey: 

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[00:40:13] Arielle Johnson: 

Yeah, if you're not getting any, uh, any like alcohol formation, um, then, uh, no, it's not gonna, it's not gonna ever make vinegar. 

[00:40:21] Josh Sharkey: 

My wife's gonna be very happy because I've had a lot of stinky, like, you know, backyard things trying to figure this thing out. 

[00:40:27] Arielle Johnson: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you're welcome. That's just the way that I think all the time.

[00:40:30] 

Like, oh, making vinegar. You're doing acetic fermentation. You're converting alcohol into, into acetic acid. But until somebody tells you. that like you don't know. So you just see people doing stuff and it can seem very like esoteric. But then when you understand the, yeah, the fundamentals, then you can, you know, apply it in a easy and smart way.

[00:40:50] Thomas Frebel: 

I think I keep it very simple. The biggest difference between a chef and the scientists, I think that stuff first, and then whenever we succeed, we try to figure out why and like Arielle said, she's trying to figure out the why first before she does things. Um, and maybe that's also the beauty between the two and, you know, trying to find the connection and just maybe become a bit more creative and, but also, for that matter, a little bit more efficient in our world.

[00:41:23] Rosio Sanchez: 

I think I have more experience of like trying it out and figuring it out along the way, as you have seen all of us working before, but, uh, that's also so fun. I think that's a chef thing. Like you're like really excited to try it and we're getting our hands into it. That's a big part of it and understanding it.

[00:41:43] 

I'm very much a hands on person. So I think that's, That's definitely like the more, uh, common route. But I think now it's, I mean, again, for the book, like, uh, it's great to have like sort of these kinds of resources because these were not available before you had to, you know, find all of these scientific books, uh, that were like.

[00:42:03] 

crazy to find and figure out where to get this answer. So I think that's, that's also why it's been difficult. And now it's, it's becoming easier and easier and YouTube and all these things to kind of figure out how to approach something that you want to, you want to get to. So I think that's really exciting to have both ways to, access.

[00:42:22] Josh Sharkey: 

I love that, you know, sort of working our way back from the end of the dish to the, to the ideation part, but we, and we talked about this on a call, I think at least a Monday, maybe not the Sunday one, but oftentimes with creativity, or at least the like step function changes in innovation, there needs to be sort of an absence of pragmatism.

[00:42:41] 

And, you know, when you have to, when you start a dish, thinking about the food cost, Or the execution in my kitchen or the operations. And that's the sort of the genesis from the beginning. It makes it very hard, even if you do have boundaries to, to create net new, you know, ideas and innovations. So I'm curious how much, and especially when you're, when you're, you're, you're all running businesses that have to have a profit and you have, you know, EBITDA and you have people to pay, how do you balance that absence of pragmatism when you're coming up with wildly new ideas with, I have a business that needs to generate revenue.

[00:43:19] Rosio Sanchez: 

We, we, well, for me, we have, uh, the taquerias and then we have the restaurant. And I think that in the past, like the first year was always like every day I was trying to make something new, like, Oh, we're going to change the menu every day and all these new tacos every day. And then I thought like, no, one's coming every day.

[00:43:37] 

Like, why am I changing the menu every day for who who's coming every day? So I think like over the, over time, you're like kind of figure out and balance, like, when is it important to, you know, have that as much as possible. And I think that now we have it, that, um, the taquerias have it sort of low on that, and then on the restaurant, we'll do that more often.

[00:43:59] 

So we'll work on changing things more often in the restaurant. And, and that's usually me and another chef. So I think it's, uh, definitely something that's. Pressuring us from EBITDA. Like I think that's, we, we don't have like the luxury of having all these, uh, R&D, uh, time for the Taqueria, especially when like in the taquerias, we have, um, you know, students, people that are like in college and, you know, people that are, you know, studying.

[00:44:28] 

Food science and stuff like that in Copenhagen. So they're not necessarily chefs. So we also have to kind of like figure out where we can, um, put our energy into it. That isn't gonna kill like our team either. Like they, they're not exactly excited about changing the menu every day. Some of them want some stability, you know, like, aren't you excited?

[00:44:48] 

Like we're changing the menu again. And you're like, no, we just got like used to it. Uh, so we sort of have to balance that out as well, as well as like profit and all of that. Um, and I think that, you know, the way that we do it is we try to, uh, like look back on the year and figure out like how much time was spent on that.

[00:45:07] 

And that goes into our administration costs and it's, it's never enough. It's never enough time, but it's, it's kind of ranges like 20 to 30 percent of my time throughout the whole year. And that's not to say that it's 20 or 30 percent of my time in the month. It's to say. Throughout the summer months, maybe there's nothing because I'm busy working at the restaurant.

[00:45:28] 

And then maybe in February, there's like all of February and then a little bit throughout the year. So definitely something I, I, I think that, um, restaurants should work on. I think that it's not perfected as it is in other industries like fashion and, you know, you have all of these, you know, All of this revenue that you can kind of work on.

[00:45:50] 

And for me, it's been a bit difficult. We have, we have sort of a different sort of a business that is more of a casual restaurant and the taquerias as well. So I think that it's hard to figure that out or, or, um, have that make sense on paper, but we know it makes sense because if you don't create and you don't innovate, like it gets stale and people won't want to come in.

[00:46:13] 

And then you. We won't be as excited going into work 

[00:46:17] Arielle Johnson: 

When I think I think the fashion example is, I mean, I think Thomas and I've talked about this some like actually quite useful. Like if you have multiple outlets or like multiple menus or something like that, um, you know, like, like a fashion house, a place like Chanel or Dior or Jean Paul Gaultier, like build its reputation on its own couture collection.

[00:46:36] 

So these are, you know, uh, yeah. thing, garments made to a like insane level of handiwork that only like the wealthiest people can buy and everyone else just like sees the fashion show online. But then they have, you know, they're ready to wear line and then often they're like perfumes and scarves and things like that.

[00:46:53] 

So by kind of, Figuring out the balance between, or the financial balance between, like, how much and what they can sell of, like, more sustainable stuff, it can then subsidize, um, a, a, a thing that's only going to appeal to, like, a few people, but, like, keep the kind of creative engine. 

[00:47:11] Mr Lyan: 

I mean, we very much do that. And I think it wasn't that each of the businesses don't look after themselves, but it was that thinking in mind. And, you know, when we started the business, it was putting innovation at the heart. And I think with sisters as my business partners, one who is in innovation, the others who in fashion, um, like a big part was thinking about how do we balance the proposition.

[00:47:30] 

And, you know, it's very different for our more kind of like casual spaces where we don't Bacon as much R&D because it would feel kind of a disconnect to what it is as an experience. Whereas, you know, with lioness, it's a year long process and this at the height of its 32 people working a huge amount of time on on something that you kind of going, well, how do you kind of offset that cost?

[00:47:51] 

But it gets balanced into The marketing aspects of it gets balanced into the retention for us. You know, we have people that with us 5 6 7 8 9 10 years and you know, they get to be able to buy into the premise of what it is. And we get to focus that R&D and that kind of innovation time through each of those lenses.

[00:48:09] 

But we do it to exactly those points. It's kind of linking up for each of those spaces in a way that makes sense for that part of the business of it and making sure that it's what people come to, both from. a team point of view and a guest point of view to buy into that space. 

[00:48:25] Thomas Frebel: 

Isn't it exactly one of those boundaries or limitations we talked about earlier that, you know, as much as seasonality is a limitation or a boundary or your region, um, the financial aspect of what you're doing, um, can equally be, uh, very often frustrating.

[00:48:45] 

I mean, especially when you look at research and development, but also can lead the way because in the end, you know, if you don't have. the extra $5 to all the extra $10 or the extra five hands to, to, to execute whatever you're dreaming off or dreaming up, then it's, it's simply not relevant. And, um, then you just, you know, get over your ego, put it somewhere and move on and.

[00:49:11] 

That's why you have a team around you who can challenge you, but also who can support to find the best possible way forward. 

[00:49:20] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. I'm going to ask your all's advice on something because you know, I believe that the, that innovation curve that we talked about is directly correlated to how much people will pay for whatever that product is, right?

[00:49:32] 

So we might be 10, 10 years ahead of where we are today. If people were going to pay 90 for a burger as opposed to 40, right? To be fair. You know, you have to amortize the cost of this R&D to across many locations or Towards a tasting menu that is it can be expensive, but oftentimes to the same That you mentioned about the fashion right that this R&D is happening in not just in fashion, but it's in Heinz, or Heinz Celestial, where they're doing, they have R&D departments, but they're advertising that across millions of people that buy those products.

[00:50:09]

What is your advice for the, the hundreds of thousands of restaurants out there that are neighborhood restaurants, that don't have an R&D team, and realistically don't have the bandwidth or the resources to have an R&D team relative to the product that they're serving? How do they incorporate that into their Day to day, or is it that they should keep relying on folks like you to innovate and push those things downstream?

[00:50:36] Mr Lyan: 

I mean, I think innovation exists on every land of the scale. It doesn't need to be on the high end. And I think, you know, every space needs to create freedom for creativity. That doesn't mean that you have to have a huge block of time or a giant team or loads of resources to do it. I think it goes back to exactly that.

[00:50:51] 

Those points. It's the using the restriction of You just got to frame the question, like, what is the value of what you're trying to hit for that space? And the more you can be clear about what that is, you know, our industry is just full of incredibly creative people. You don't need to be, you know, having spent years researching or in kind of research labs to do that.

[00:51:12] 

Everybody, In working in this industry can be pointed in kind of ways. And I think it's often about empowering them to be able to own those tasks and be able to kind of input on those things. Cause everybody's got an opinion at every point in that business. It can help refine it, make it work better, make it well, better for everyone.

[00:51:29] 

You know, I think the more that we set up structures for creativity, the better it enables people to do it, but it's not, I really believe that it's something that exists on, you know, like every end of the scale. Um, and it does get, you know, that and that pays itself off and, you know, as you say, it gets kind of balanced across the board.

[00:51:48] 

It's not just in the products part of it. It comes through in in the marketing, in the clarity and, you know, the guest experience, all of that kind of gets tracked alongside it. 

[00:51:58] Thomas Frebel: 

I think it's also just allow creativity. It doesn't matter where you work. If you work at a three star restaurant, or if you work at, for that matter, a taqueria, allow creativity and allow your chefs to share ideas and, and maybe give them the space to.

[00:52:14] 

You know, within the given limitations to be creative just because, you know, creativity doesn't, you don't need to have 20 years of experience in a certain trait. Creativity can come from somebody who for the first time touches or tastes a strawberry. And if you just allowed whoever it is in your enterprise, in your restaurant, in your bar, if they want to be or choose to be creative or have an idea and give that.

[00:52:44] 

space to express themselves, then I think you will create a creative and innovative environment for yourself. And it doesn't matter if it's a small neighborhood restaurant, if it's a street food, uh, store somewhere sitting on plastic stools and, uh, eating, uh, from, from plastic cutlery, um, it can go to, to each spectrum.

[00:53:10] Rosio Sanchez: 

I also wanted to add that it's, uh, underestimated, like that, You know, being creative is also, it's work. I think people think that you're just creative and it is actually work. You have to work at it. And I think that it's a muscle you have to. You know, exercise, and if you don't exercise it, it doesn't come out.

[00:53:31] 

And it doesn't mean that every time, Oh, I'm going to be creative between two and four. And that's the, my time. And you could set aside that time because you're an organized person. And I do that. I am like, I'm going to work on this in this time, because the other time I have to have meetings or be in the restaurant.

[00:53:48] 

And then that those hours can be like unsuccessful, but you have to kind of work at it and work at it and work at it. And I think a lot of. People don't really, people that haven't tried to do that. Don't understand that it's actually a lot of practice and work and trial and error and putting things in a box for later and holding off for that recipe to hit the perfect season, you know, and I think that's something that you have to just keep at, keep at, keep at, and it does require, I'll say it again, it's actually work.

[00:54:20] 

So if you're opening a restaurant or you have a small restaurant and you're like, Oh, I don't have a, yeah, you probably don't have. The, uh, time or money or whatever. And then you just have to make it and find it and do it on whenever you can. And I think that's something that is in what maybe many people want to hear, but in our restaurant world, you, you have to figure it out.

[00:54:42] 

And, and work it in and then over years you develop it into something highly organized. But I think in the beginning, especially where you're saying like for small restaurants, you're just going to have to put in the time and and do it. It's not just going to happen by itself and find the right people around, around you that can mirror that.

[00:55:00] 

The things that you want and have the same palette and you respect their palette and you, uh, can talk freely with each other without there being, uh, any, uh, personal feelings attacked, you know, like without feeling, um, yeah, I think that's very important. And what I would have. Like to hear when I was younger, because it's, it's something you learn along the way.

[00:55:21] 

Like, Oh, I can really mess up in front of this person and no one's going to be criticized. And I think that's, that's a big part of it and not looking at any of the errors. 

[00:55:33] Josh Sharkey: 

Yeah. It, it, it reminds me, this has nothing to do with food, but I heard recently that Eminem writes down. Lyrics every single day 99 percent of them.

[00:55:43] 

He does not use but the the act of writing Every day is what keeps the the muscle fresh of creativity. So it is a lot of work for in perpetuity I have a million more questions. I have one more and then I think I want to leave time for Q&A so question for you all which has little to do who we just talked about but Can you recall a time when?

[00:56:06] 

You know, we all have things that we, that we personally love, dishes that we love, ideas that we love, that we get stuck on. Can you recall a time, you probably can recall a lot, but a time when you developed a dish or a drink or or a product that you loved that you were just like, this is the best, and for some reason it just flopped and everyone else did not love it, but you did.

[00:56:30] Rosio Sanchez: 

I feel like there's been many situations where, where things are like, not finished. I don't think we, I don't know, I can't recall of making something where like, I really loved it and no one else loved it. Like maybe there's just points to fix, but nothing like so extreme. 

[00:56:50] Thomas Frebel: 

I think what I can recall is that very often you go home and you go somewhere and you meet, maybe you have a dining experience and.

[00:57:02] 

your brain starts working, I think, um, this would be a great dish. Maybe if I do this, this and this and that, and, and then you, the next day or whenever you get back to work, you're like so excited. I'm going to do this now. And this is going to be incredible. And you cook it up or whatever you need to do.

[00:57:16] 

And you taste and it's like, just, just horrible. Like, and so it's not as such a present that to anyone. No, I don't. It doesn't make the first filter. So 

[00:57:31] Mr Lyan: 

Not so much that it was, I'm signing off on this, but I think it was also getting the team's insight on what was acceptable to put in front of a guest.

[00:57:40] 

And there was one bit at white lyan, uh, our first bar where the first time I came across high racing, I can't believe I'm going to describe this in the group of people, but it's basically fossilized poop. And I was like, this is grand. 

[00:57:53] Arielle Johnson: 

It's a perfume ingredient. It's a perfume ingredient.

[00:57:55] Mr Lyan: 

There’s a, there's a background to it.

[00:57:56] 

That's not just perfume. Picking up poop. And I was like, it's great. It's got this incredible aromatic to it. We can make a Sazerac out of it. And like the team, I think are fairly like good at being like, like open minded to stuff. But they were like, we can't put that in front of guests at this stage. And I think, you know, that was over 10 years ago.

[00:58:17] 

And, you know, we'd Struggled with some things where we were kind of like trying to push the comfort zone of people. And I think that was a, you know, what we were excited by doing, but I definitely got flagged on the we're not there yet. We used to eventually, 

[00:58:33] Rosio Sanchez: 

You definitely have like, this is a question for you. Like you have a team of people where you're like, if they all say no, you're like, fine. Oh, 

[00:58:39] Mr Lyan: 

yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think it goes back to that. Like, check the ego point on it for sure. It's like, it's got a, you know, Everybody's got to buy into it. I think the buy in is always the most crucial thing as well. So if, if the team are not on board with it, then it's a no.

[00:58:52] Josh Sharkey: 

It's funny how that also is somewhat relegated, maybe not just to food, but to product because it is so. Objective in many ways, but like a business decision of we are, you know, going to have apples at the front of a restaurant We walk in, you know, the entire staff could say no and you might believe like no, no, this is the right thing I want this I want this smell and and you do it but with food, you know, that doesn't that doesn't happen So that's a beautiful thing about, about food and teams.

[00:59:22] 

Now, I want to make sure we have time for Q&A, so I'm going to shut up and leave it to the audience. I think I walk around the mic is the way to do this. Yeah. 

[00:59:30] Panel Audience: 

Hello. I just want to start off by saying I really appreciate your comments about giving the chefs the opportunity to be creative on their own.

[00:59:38] 

When I worked at a restaurant in New York City, um, every Thursday. We got together, had a meeting, and the chefs allowed the cooks to come up with a dish that they would then put on a lunch menu every single week. And it really gave me the chance to think on my own and being creative, and I really appreciate it.

[00:59:54] 

And I told myself, if I were at a restaurant, that's what I would do. absolutely have to apply at my own place. Now that I am on my own, I'm a personal chef. I have spent years imitating professionals to learn the techniques that they did and everything that they did to come up with a dish. But what I'm wondering is if you're talking about this in your book, I apologize.

[01:00:14] 

I'm only on the forward so far, but when it comes to composing a dish, what are the absolute necessities that you need to have? Like does a dish have to have an acidic profile? Um, or aspect in there, are there, do they have like carbs and dishes or is it just every dish is different? 

[01:00:31] Thomas Frebel: 

Well, I think for me it's first of all, what is the dish about or what is the main ingredient?

[01:00:40] 

And I'm going back to my tomatoes now for that matter. I think. Okay. It's very important to somehow try to experience an ingredient when it's at its absolute best or finest. In the case of a tomato, it's probably making the time and going to your farmer or to a farm, finding the right moment of the, of the day, maybe of the week.

[01:01:03] 

Like I was saying, maybe the tomato was sitting for three days in the sun. And, uh, you go into the farm and, and you pick it and he left later, late afternoon, and it's slightly warmer than your body, body temperature. You bite into the tomato, you smell the vine as well. In my opinion, probably that might be the best tomato.

[01:01:24] 

You will ever taste and you could apply that to a peach, to a strawberry, to a cucumber, most likely, and trying to understand that particular moment and that particular flavor you're tasting. And then you just take that back to your kitchen and, um, try to get as close as possible to that moment again, what you recall experiencing on the farm.

[01:01:47] 

And therefore I think there is no such formula as it needs acidity or needs to have sweetness. It's more like trying to understand a product. And then again, what is it you like about this, this moment? And what is it you like about this product? And You know, trying to express yourself through that lens.

[01:02:07] Mr Lyan: 

I apologize. I might be the least equipped person here to answer your question, but for me, it's, it's all about balance. And I think some of that is, is exactly what Tom says. You it's the analysis of, of what that is and what are the things that are balanced and that you want to represent, but it's also the wider balance.

[01:02:22] 

Like we do a lot of work on, you know, what's the occasion we're trying to build to here, you know, what is it trying to answer? And then you're thinking about that wider balance of, of how people consume it. What's the point in. e.g. the day in which it's going to be because if you're thinking about all of those variables, those are all tools you can control, right?

[01:02:39] 

So how do you try and express something that feels as balanced as possible to represent for that moment? I think this is, you know, we try and get the teams to, Think on everything within their control to be able to look out for those points and and choose a point of observation. It's about making a choice on it, but it's not about just throwing shit against the wall about going.

[01:02:58] 

Okay, now I can do this and there it's about, you know, again, throwing away those kind of formula for it. It's not about going. Okay, to be this. It's got to have this included in it. I think it's you get some of the most exciting innovations where You're thinking about what the need is. What's the emotional need?

[01:03:15] 

What's suited for that occasion? How are people going to consume it? Um, and you're finding a way around it. Um, for example, again, I'm going to bring it to the booze well for a second. It's like it doesn't need the alcohol to be the heart of that. The point is not, you know, a what we're just putting in the glass.

[01:03:31] 

It's everything around it. But it's like you can problem solve in a completely different way. If you're if you're not restricting yourself to going, Oh, Oh, it's got to have carbs. It's got to have this in it. You're going actually to create this balance. It needs to. Actually, what if we did this as a result of it as well?

[01:03:45] 

And I think that's where it opens up some of the best playground for like you're learning when you're doing bits of development 

[01:03:52] Josh Sharkey: 

Would love to hear everyone. But I think I wanna make sure we get enough questions in. We have five minutes left before another thing. So anybody else have questions? I'm going to pass back here. I happen to know this person's name, Chris. 

[01:04:06] Panel Audience: 

Thank you. I'm curious as to what resources and routines you utilize to sort of enter the creative process, right? Like, do you use books? Do you use the internet? Do you meditate? I'm just very curious to understand how you sort of get there on your own. 

[01:04:20] Thomas Frebel: 

Going to the farmer's market or going to the farms. Really and trying to very often we spend way too much time in in our restaurants and with that also I feel like you disconnect from you know time and place and and seasonality and your region and By going to the farmers market or going to a farm again. I think it's a great way to reconnect and And be in that moment again, which helps me at least personally to be creative.

[01:04:49] Rosio Sanchez: 

Yeah, for us, when we have like, either we have a specific idea that we're excited about, or we went to Mexico or did something that we want to work on is one. And then if we're Like starting from zero, I'll tell Laura, like order, Laura's our executive chef, like try to order every vegetable, like the farms have and have it delivered today.

[01:05:07] 

And then we'll like, look at it all. And then we're like, what are we excited about? What's available? If you're not able to go to all the farmers, uh, you know, all the farms, because that takes a long time and, uh, they're usually not too close by to each other. So I would suggest like having a, get in, in a little sample of everything, putting it all together and trying to figure out.

[01:05:29] 

Like, what draws you in, what's exciting, and what tastes really well, because everything changes throughout the season. So doing that periodically and saying, okay, now we're in spring, all these are all forage things. These are all root vegetables. These are all greens. Like, what are we excited to create out of this?

[01:05:46] 

And then pick from there and narrow it down and then do that again in the winter when there's like only root vegetables. Things like that is very, very good to do. When you're having a, like, when you're stumped and you don't know where to start. But yeah, definitely going, eating out, tasting, going to the farmer's markets.

[01:06:04] 

Because it all starts with that. You can't make something tasty if it's not tasty itself from the beginning. 

[01:06:12] Josh Sharkey: 

We have one last question, and then we'll go to the back of the room for that one. 

[01:06:17] Panel Audience:

Thank you. Hi, I'm Krista Barfield. I'm the CEO of Farmerjohn Agriculture. So I'm really happy to hear many of you talking about the importance of farming and because we don't hear it enough in this industry of how important we, we actually are from the start.

[01:06:30] 

Um, so really want to talk about as we're in the essence of menu development and food costs being such a, you know, one of the top things that a restaurant has to worry about or a chef. Um, Can you speak to any experience you may have in partnering with chefs at the start, instead of planning menus after, but thinking about saving money on food costs by having a partnership with the farmer or farmer?

[01:06:57] Thomas Frebel: 

First of all, um, I had a, and that goes a little bit back also to being creative and, and innovative and, and all those kind of things. Um, Um, I had a great conversation, um, a couple of years back with a Japanese chef where we talked about creativity and innovating menus and how it was taking place in my restaurant in Japan.

[01:07:18] 

And I asked him the same question and he was telling me I'm too old to be creative. Um, I'm actually just spending all my time traveling and, uh, finding the best ingredients available to me and, uh, let the ingredients speak for me or, uh, let the ingredients do the work for me. For me, it was very, very powerful for me, uh, when he said it, because in the end, Rosio said, if it doesn't taste good, you can make it tasty.

[01:07:44] 

Very, very rare occasions. Um, so an exceptional ingredient is in the end, almost like a, like an uncut gem or like a diamond you find, and you need to do very, very little with it. Pre ordering ingredients, pre ordering, um, farmed vegetables. I think it's necessary, but also it's a little bit of a gamble going back to, you never know what the season will give you or what the season will bring.

[01:08:16] 

For example, in Copenhagen, we had the first, uh, cherry blossoms. We had the first, uh, plum blossoms coming up and all that stuff. Frost came again. Uh, a lot of the flowers, um, were fallen, uh, were killed. And, uh, So that means we might have a not so, not so good fruit season in Copenhagen. So what do you want to do?

[01:08:38] 

Either you have to preorder most of your stone fruits in order to actually have them. at all, or you need to, to, to say, I wait, I gamble and see what we have. Um, and the same goes with vegetables. Again, going back to my tomato, of course I could pre order a hundred kilos of tomato, but then what is if it's raining the entire, the entire summer, the tomatoes will not be off the standard.

[01:09:04] 

We would probably use them. And, and then it becomes very difficult and, and you need to be. Again, creative or need to use other resources to maybe trying to make a product good, but unfortunately it is not. As good as it should be from the get go. 

[01:09:22] Rosio Sanchez: 

I was going to say very quickly, we, uh, at the taqueria where we have, um, we use like pork and, and beef, uh, over the last few years, we're working with our supplier.

[01:09:33] 

Uh, we will change like the combination of like the cuts that we use for the barbacoa or for the cochinita in order to have an organic product. So they, you know, gather from different farms to supply, uh, organic meat, but then they have like leftover meats that people are not getting. So we're like working closely with them so that we've changed that.

[01:09:52] 

And we've done that a few times already in the last two years. Uh, which as I told my chef, I'm like, that's still sort of R&D. You know, we're like trying out things. It doesn't necessarily mean that we're recreating something that's never been done before. It's also about like working with what we have.

[01:10:09] 

And in the Taqueria being creative is like, how are we doing the balance for the Cochinita? And in order for it to be organic and everybody wins. And then in the restaurant we can work on, okay, going to the farmer and then we have this special, uh, fruit and all of that. So I think it's, there's many different ways that people can be creative and that's definitely one of them.

[01:10:29] 

And I'm glad you brought that up because I think that you can, you don't just have to stick to your recipe and like, that's the recipe forever and ever. It's like, that recipe should have an evolution and it should serve also different purposes for the better, for taste as well, always, but also that it can benefit.

[01:10:47] Arielle Johnson: 

Well, and this is, um, my, my answer goes like way, way deeper into the R&D process, so it's, it doesn't have as Yeah, immediate payoff, but a project I've been involved with for a while that I'm really excited about is this group called the Culinary Breeding Network at the University of Oregon. And they actually not only work with chefs and farmers, but also plant breeders and bring all three groups together to like evaluate.

[01:11:13] 

So not just like, okay, what's good coming off the farm, but like, how can we breed these fruits and vegetables to like be better and perform better in whatever, uh, thing chefs. Need them for so that's yeah, pretty cool. 

[01:11:27] Josh Sharkey: 

We are a little over time, and we have, I wanna bring mic over here, but can we get, maybe give a, a round of applause.

[01:11:36] Josh Sharkey: 

Thanks for tuning into the Me podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist, Fresh Daily. For show notes and more, visit get me.com/podcast. That's G-E-T-M-E z.com/podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[01:12:00] Josh Sharkey: 

Keep innovating, don't settle, make today a little bit better than yesterday, and remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next time.