Have you ever felt the weight of life's challenges bearing down on you? Ever wondered how to navigate change, heal from trauma, and break free from a victim mentality? In our latest episode, you'll find thought-provoking insights and practical strategies — a veritable roadmap to begin your journey towards healing. In a heart-to-heart with our guest, Jess, a licensed psychologist and dog trainer, we delve into these topics and much more.
Jess shares her professional experiences working with individuals in the mental health space, highlighting the importance of emotional intelligence and communication in our daily lives. Diving deeper into the concept of self-love, we share personal practices that have brought us solace amidst life's pressures. Moreover, we discuss society's inclination towards toxic positivity and why it's essential to be present with ourselves, finding peace in stillness.
As we steer our conversation towards the trauma healing process, we explore how past experiences influence our ability to trust and accept love. We shed light on the significance of understanding victim mentality, receiving feedback, and trusting intuition to build confidence. Our episode concludes with a deep dive into self-reflection, connection, balance, and finding meaning in life. So join us and Jess on this enriching journey — we promise it'll be a conversation you won't want to miss.
Have you ever felt the weight of life's challenges bearing down on you? Ever wondered how to navigate change, heal from trauma, and break free from a victim mentality? In our latest episode, you'll find thought-provoking insights and practical strategies — a veritable roadmap to begin your journey towards healing. In a heart-to-heart with our guest, Jess, a licensed psychologist and dog trainer, we delve into these topics and much more.
Jess shares her professional experiences working with individuals in the mental health space, highlighting the importance of emotional intelligence and communication in our daily lives. Diving deeper into the concept of self-love, we share personal practices that have brought us solace amidst life's pressures. Moreover, we discuss society's inclination towards toxic positivity and why it's essential to be present with ourselves, finding peace in stillness.
As we steer our conversation towards the trauma healing process, we explore how past experiences influence our ability to trust and accept love. We shed light on the significance of understanding victim mentality, receiving feedback, and trusting intuition to build confidence. Our episode concludes with a deep dive into self-reflection, connection, balance, and finding meaning in life. So join us and Jess on this enriching journey — we promise it'll be a conversation you won't want to miss.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Pockets of Time hosted by Chunky Panda and today's episode. We are going to be discussing a little bit of touching base on a little bit of traumas, triggers and victim mentality and for the most part we're just going to free flow. So it's just kind of like a go with the flow kind of episode and I am also super excited to introduce you guys my special guest and dear friend, jess, who is a licensed psychologist and is also a dog trainer and probably a lot more things that I have yet to uncover. I'm going to hand it off to her so she can say maybe a couple more things about herself. Here we go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what? What am I? Who am I? I am a lot of things I am realizing a beautiful mom. I'm also a new mom pretty new mom, yeah but I started out my career in psychotherapy, so I've been a licensed psychologist since. I don't even know what year, I think 2016- it was. And I then found myself. I call them happy accidents. I found my career going into from there, a mix of psychotherapy related to other things for like employee well being.
Speaker 1:And when you say psychotherapy is that that's not like hypnotherapy, that's yeah, so psychotherapy is.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of different sort of specialties within it, but in general it's related to mental health and talk therapy or talked as a modality for healing and mental wellness, and I more so focused on what we call kind of the worried. Well, quote unquote, which means I didn't work a lot with people who have severe and persistent mental illnesses. You know things that are like schizophrenia like more of those diagnoses.
Speaker 2:Instead, I worked more with things like depression, anxiety and oftentimes in communities or populations that were the worried. Well means you know they were struggling but, they were in general still sane. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. So it was like still pretty privileged population, yes, still put together, I guess still able to manage and cope yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the big divide for me was I had done some like what we call inpatient work, where you work with people that that are hospitalized or need to be hospitalized or need more significant treatments for the scope of their life, and it was not the right fit for me. I found it was like inspiring, I learned a ton from it, but I was also very aware that I would totally burn out if I did that for too long. So I worked more in the this again quote unquote worried well population and in the last few years I mentioned some happy accidents I ended up accidentally more or less finding myself working with professionals that again, a worried well population, but professionals that. It started out working with professionals in more of the mental health space and transitioned into working with them actually in the professional setting. So doing more of what we call like corporate wellness or industrial organizational psychology, trying to work with people being well in the workplace in order to improve their performance.
Speaker 1:Which is hugely important because I feel like a lot of the times the workplace is like a place for productivity, but if you're not, you know if you're too stressed or if you got a lot going on or you don't know how to communicate, and I feel like you step in and you kind of help them be better at that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so true. I mean, I think organizations realized this years ago. Where they were, they recognized. Okay, we have employees, we pay them to do these things to contribute to our revenue. But all of that plan is kind of a moot point if your employees are not well enough to be performing and so, or even yourself like not being able to communicate what it is you need to say.
Speaker 2:Yes, so the wellness piece of it. And then, to your point, coaching and enabling them to perform better in their jobs, whatever that is. And the communication thing is huge. You know like we communicate every day, but the difference between how much of an impact you can have when you know how to communicate, when you know how to connect with people, when you have emotional intelligence like that, can really make or break people's whole careers. So that piece has been in more recent years like a big focus for me and something I really enjoy doing. And also we spend what so much of our life I don't know the hour, the quote of like how many, how much of our time has spent working, and so for us to do our jobs and either feel ineffective or like we don't enjoy it, that to me is like a huge waste of life.
Speaker 1:So we're not really appreciated to that?
Speaker 2:true, that's totally true too. So part of the part of what I do enjoy most about working in like organizations is it's working with people, it's working with the company, but then trying to figure out how to make the right environment to like really bring out people's talents and strengths. That's a super inspiring area of work for me. And then, when I'm not doing that to your point, I'm dog training, or I guess not, or and I'm taking care of my son. It's not really an option to take care of your kids.
Speaker 1:And just has two badass dobermans. I do.
Speaker 2:I'm a dober mom as well. Yeah, everyone who is in the dog community wonders why I do that to myself, but I am obsessed with them and I actually. I have a three day weekend coming up and I'm going to spend most of it training my dogs, so I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1:But I love that you still make that time even though you know your mom, and then you work corporate right now and then you do all the other stuff. I think that's. It's just a lot of people just kind of forget and life happens so yeah, thanks for calling that out.
Speaker 2:I think that's you know. We might get into talking a bit about self love today and whether we put that under that umbrella or not, like I think, for me it's just realizing like you can be so many things to other people or to other animals, or you know whatever it is, but if you lose track of filling, your own bucket you're. You also can become pretty useless. I can become pretty useless.
Speaker 1:I think that's anybody, and you might get a little manic because you're just like I've, I'm empty.
Speaker 2:I'm completely empty. So, yeah, what do you do to fill your bucket on a regular basis? It's different.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's self. Love is just dependent on case by case you know, sometimes it might be hey, you know, like I didn't go and go to the gym and do my release. Or sometimes it's hey, I just need to go sit down and cry and just really just be with myself, or it's journaling I try to do every day.
Speaker 1:I try to make sure I get like some journaling done. I meditate in the morning and I go for like walks outside with my dog. I feel like it makes me be more present, but I feel like self love looks different for me all the time, like this past week I went and got my nails done and I was just like I feel like a human and I don't have trophy anymore.
Speaker 2:You know the second. I actually saw you tonight. I instantly noticed your nails and they look lovely. Oh, my God, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I'm just like now, I'm just like here. Let me just hit this button for you. Do you want me to hold your hand? Cause. I'll do that with my nails up, you know, and it's just funny how those tiny little things like make or break you sometimes, you know, and it gives you that extra thing of confidence, you know it's very true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, small things can make a big difference.
Speaker 1:It's when we don't make time for anything that the problem I mean I'm sure the nail lady looked at my toes and was like that was not a French manicure.
Speaker 2:Or maybe it was a French manicure a year ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah it grew out pretty badly. Girl, yeah, but no, what about you?
Speaker 2:So the dog thing, I think, is big, you know it's. It fills my cup to spend time with my son, but it also it's like the weirdest relationship I've ever had, in that I adore him and I like constantly think about him and want to be with him and I'm also so exhausted that I also like simultaneously want to. Not, it's just a very strange dynamic.
Speaker 1:I mean it's kids, you know like it's your it's like it's a job but then it's not yeah, I mean yeah, so you're like. It's like a. I think it's because you know you're responsible. Yeah for, for that's a great, that's a great point.
Speaker 2:I had not thought about that before. There is a like a background kind of Low-level pressure associated with yeah, all the time. So it's wonderful when I have those moments and I also need some breaks at times. Yeah, so actually part of filling my cup back up has been Going back to work after having a kid like I. I did not. I thought I was gonna Be like sort of fully in stay-at-home mom mode and I did it for Think I did five months of it and.
Speaker 2:I realized that is actually the hardest job in the world.
Speaker 1:I can only imagine just the fact of carrying a little human inside of you for nine months and I think early. You talked about the whole like sometimes you'd have contractions and you'd be like it's time, and then it'd be like not just kidding, yeah labor was not the smoothest.
Speaker 2:So I just find that I have so much respect and I wish Sides a bit backwards, like I wish we paid moms To be moms, because that, I think, is like one of the most important jobs in the world and it is remarkably, I mean, it's not paid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not paid and I'm sure the hormones are all over the place and you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think I found that, like I guess kind of to your point before of self-love looks different all the time it is. It's like balance.
Speaker 1:It's figuring out what you need when and being present enough with yourself to know that. And it's just like what we said, I think, at the gym the other day I said strong looks different every single day. Yeah, depending on your strong that day at yourself, love could look completely different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true. It's hard to let your bar change all the time, for whatever you're trying to gauge.
Speaker 1:But I think it's nice because it's not every day you get the same answer, because I feel like, if that was the case and it's just like a plug-and-play, all the time, you get to explore yourself, yeah, and be a more aware of what it is that you're missing it does, it force it and it forces you to be present.
Speaker 2:Yes it's very easy to like get stuck in. What is it, you know, just like can autopilot like just not yeah when you're present, it's different.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I feel like it's hard, because we live in a fast-paced world where it's consumed to be on the next level, to you know, and if you're not consuming, or if you're not looking at something, or if you're not checking your phone, it's like you're missing out on something. Yeah, it's like we have really bad FOMO, yeah, and I feel like a lot of people don't take a break. I feel like everybody should take 30 minutes at least.
Speaker 1:That's the minimum, to just sit there in silence and just kind of really think about your thoughts or how you feel.
Speaker 2:You know you know people struggle with it, myself included. If I'm in a mode where I've been go-go, like, it takes me a while to shift my mindset, but for some people it becomes like really truly compulsive, like the inability to sit still, to not be consuming Something like the. There's a lot of anxiety that comes up when that's, and I feel like it's a lot of.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not this person today. I need to, like you know, find the next answer, or find the next level, or you know, it's like you're comparing yourself to a future you that doesn't even exist, yet you know what? I mean, and it's like the person that's supposed to be like taken care of, is you right now? Because that's the foundation. Yeah, that that you there, it's like almost unfair, because you're like I'm not there yet, but it's like that person doesn't even exist. Yeah, you're comparing yourself to an imaginary.
Speaker 2:Not even real person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This, this sort of struggle with, you know, on this topic of like, self-love and I don't know, our society does not do a great job of Balancing, striving, like, wanting to move forward and get better and improve, with the fact that something you don't always have to improve, sometimes you can just be like it's fine to be where you are.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it's also like even toxic positivity. Mmm, I feel like a lot of us I don't have that problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I'm not. I joke. I like really admire people that are very positive and I'm not capable of it. I'm I know how to do positivity at times, but I also have a bit of a cynicism streak in me.
Speaker 1:I feel like everyone, even though they don't like and that goes. You know what you see on social media. You're like, wow, this person must be positive all the time, but it's no. They have like times and moments where yeah, I feel like for you to be positive, you have to have those low-lows. Yeah, you know, it's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're this idea of opposites, like you can't have one without the other, you can't know one side of something without the other, and I think you're right. You can't really look at the bright side or be positive or have joy unless you also know sadness or setbacks, or Negativity because how are you supposed to decipher the difference if you don't know?
Speaker 1:and I know like it's a super cliche thing, but you know how would you appreciate the sunny days if you never had the rainy days? You know there's no difference and every day is just about the same.
Speaker 2:Did you know? That's literally how perception works, like at the very base level of the way our brains work. We don't know light unless we experience darkness. So that's literally at a Biological, neurological level, the way that we operate, and it's so true, like mentally to and emotionally. Yeah, it just makes a big difference to be able to see, sort of you have to see one to see the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of the times we spend so much time I found I think I watched this video is so interesting. It was this guy and I've probably mentioned this multiple times, but the guy was talking to his therapist and he said you know, sometimes I have these super highs and then sometimes I have these lows, you know, to the ground, and I feel like I can't get up. And he was like I just want to just mellow out and be in the middle.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. And I thought it was interesting because this therapist said you know if you in the middle, but like the heart monitors, you're flat lining. Oh yeah, and she was like you have to know the highs to know the lows. Yeah you have to know the lows to know the highs, and I was like that makes so much sense and it's always like when we're at our lowest we're about to get a breakthrough. Yeah, or something is coming for us to learn and we have to work through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that we can have the highs yeah it's true, but we as humans, we suck at change, Like the change from it's, because we want to control everything we do, we often do yeah yeah, I. And on the topic of trauma, I think that's another part where it's you know, when you go through something that's really hard, whether it's we Talk about traumas that are kind of like your classic or capital T traumas like things that, like everyone would instantly define, as you know, trauma.
Speaker 2:There's also like lower case, like lower T traumas, like things that you know it could be at a certain vulnerable stage in your life, like you were humiliated in such a way that like really, yeah, was you know emotionally traumatizing for you, but that going through those experiences, I think you go through a moment and then so much of your life becomes after that if it's like really self-defining for you about figuring out how to cope or how to go on from that. And when we were talking about, like change just a minute ago, I think that's a significant change in your life, but for some people, like that actually becomes the new norm for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and going muscle memory exactly and I think, like your brain holds on to that, your emotions hold on to that and then, even if you spend so much of your time trying to change, to get out of that trauma and to move on from it, that also becomes almost, for some people can become their new norm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's really hard to break out of and that's funny that you say that, because I feel like I Always say the saying it's you deserve the love that you give, not the love that you've been conditioned to receive. Mmm and that comes from like the trauma of you've gone through the same situations over and over, to the point where it does become your norm. Yeah, and then anything outside of that feels unsafe, even though it's healthy, it's true. It's. Yeah, that was a hard lesson to learn, but yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a mind fuck.
Speaker 1:It is because you're just like but this person's so good, but. I'm not worthy yeah because you know of what, your patterns that you've witnessed in the path, like it's just, you know it's interesting when you really look at it and dive into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's. You know, we get used to whatever we have and then, sort of that, the change in and of itself can feel like more trauma On top of it. But I really like that phrase, like the piece related to you.
Speaker 1:Say it one more time the love you deserve the love that you give, not the love that you're conditioned to receive. I love that. I say that because I realize you know for me from all the things that I've been through as a kid. Growing up and you know, just a very strict Asian family, tiger mom, tiger dad. I just never felt like I was good enough and I always felt like Less of and I was bullied when I was little, so for me it's, and I remember all those mean things that people would say.
Speaker 1:But it was like I never, like I forgave them. It wasn't like I held on and was like I hate you because you know.
Speaker 1:But for me it's. I took all that and I just kept shoving it into people's faces because I realized over time, now that I think about it, it's the love that I needed. It's the love that I give is what I needed. And it's just funny because we don't realize what our love languages are, but we give it all the time. That's so true. And then sometimes we give it to people but it's I don't resonate with that same love language.
Speaker 1:So you're not you think that you're giving them, like you know, their love language but it's actually yours.
Speaker 2:You don't realize it. Yeah, I've heard that sort of a similar sort of phrase, for we call it the platinum rule. The golden rule has been described as treat others the way that you want to be treated. That actually is garbage. It does not work well at all because so often other people do not want to be treated the way that you want to be treated.
Speaker 1:They want to be treated. That is actually so true Now that I mean I think about it. No, you're right. If you really break that down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at the next level, go beyond gold. Platinum is like treat others the way that they want to be treated, but that takes a lot of work to but also accept.
Speaker 1:You know the treatment that you want for yourself. Yes, Cause, then that gets tricky, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you. I think when this does this is a complex balance of figuring out, like being aware for yourself of what is the way that you need to be loved, the way you need to be treated. Communicate that. Being able to, like assert when you are, or not getting that, but then also being like, confident, sort of stable enough in yourself to be able to see someone else for who they truly are and the way that they need to be loved and the way they need to be, treated.
Speaker 2:It's a hard dance. Sometimes I'm like you know we can be hard on myself ourselves, but life is a lot of work.
Speaker 1:It is, I swear. It's like a journey, constant journey of like growth. And just when you think you know yourself it's nah, there's another level. Yeah, we're going to make you super uncomfortable. So I don't want this feeling again. Oh man, it's true, and then you get stuck in it again and then you're like, okay, fine, it's a puzzle, I get it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is really. We chatted about this. We had dinner the other night and we were chatting about how, like every phase of life I know for me personally, I'm always sort of thinking about or preparing for the next phase and I'm like, oh, I am never going to be ready for whatever that thing is. And then, like you get there and like you're uncomfortable but like you figure it out and you make it work, and then that becomes your new norm and then you know the next phase, like it's terrifying again, but it is hard, like life is just constant change and adaptation, but through that you remember that.
Speaker 1:wow, the last time I thought I couldn't make it, I made it. You know what I mean. So it's just like remembering that, hey, I have been through something tough and I've made it out, so this time it's not going to be any different, it's true, If you can remember back to those.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's where confidence comes from. They talk about fake it till you make it Some of it's that, but then you actually have to go through hardships and get to the other side.
Speaker 1:And you have to internalize and remember that feeling and just have faith that you know everything is going to work out, and just I think it's a lot to do with always wanting to control.
Speaker 2:Cause.
Speaker 1:You know when things get uncomfortable, it's because change is about to happen, and that scares the mess out of all of us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah You're making me think of. I mean, I'm not super quite on target with the trauma topic, but it's kind of related to that Trust the process. I get told that. I have told people that Like it's super valuable to hear that. Trust the process and also the hardest thing to do. It applies to so many things right, like it applies to if you're going through healing from trauma. Trust the process. It applies in therapy, like we talk about all the time. Trust the process. Sometimes it's less about literally what you do and more about the process Every time you go through a change or a hard period. Trust the process. There is a I don't know where it comes from, you know, I don't know how much of it is just the way humans and our minds work.
Speaker 2:But there is a process to things and the less, we can fight it and you know, move that energy to instead focus on whatever we need to do to feel secure enough to go through it, that I think if we could all do that, we would all be a little bit more peaceful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it goes back to you know the control thing, and also it's just knowing that things are happening for you. You know like just trusting that, whoever is up there universe, God, whoever your source, whoever you believe in, just know that it's all happening for you, to you know, learn something, or see something, or understand yourself a little bit more you know what I? Mean and also in the process, but just knowing that it's not happening against you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the world is not doing something against. That's a great when we talk about like victim mentality. This is not the world doing something to you, it's.
Speaker 1:there is a process happening and I feel like when people go through trauma they like don't realize, because not a lot of people like to you know, open that to sweep it on the rug put it in a box, put it somewhere up there you know, so that they don't have to think about it. But sometimes the way you act towards certain situations it's just like muscle memory.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when you get a trigger or something that like kind of makes your nervous system go, oh my gosh. I've been there before, but you don't understand what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you're like already. The world's against me. I must defend myself or I must you know, put up this wall or something, or you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. I'm curious if you, whether it's related to trauma or not, or whether or not you want to share about your own journey, totally your call. But any sense of in life, how you notice or recognize when you're either quote, unquote triggered or activated or thrown off, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1:I want to say the most recent one was my brother. He actually I didn't even. It's like I feel like so many of us go through it without even thinking that we're doing it. It might be something so minor to I think. He was like talking about like a general, like group, and for some reason it wasn't about me, but in my head I felt the need to defend myself. Oh yeah, I felt the need to be like I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know and I didn't.
Speaker 1:It's to me that was harmless, but my brother was like. He called it to my attention and was like you know, we're not talking about you, you just you always feel like you have to defend yourself.
Speaker 1:You know, and I was just like it just hit me and I was like, wow, that is interesting. And it just goes back when I really think about it. Wow, I did get bullied when I was younger, you know. I did feel like I was always trying to prove myself and it was just all that. And it's just like we're so used to reacting that we don't even make space to see that. And I think I've worked really hard to get to this space because I feel like if he would have done that to me like three years ago, I'd have been like I'm not defending myself.
Speaker 2:You know like I would have totally downed yeah.
Speaker 1:I would have thrown that back and be like you're the one that's defending yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's. That's a great example, Because I think Certainly. I've noticed this for myself. I've seen this for clients. I see this for family members, like humans in general. Honestly, you see it in dogs too. We are not that different from dogs, by the way. At some point we can talk more about why I love dogs so much, but why I love dog training because they're just sensitive like we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're like they're just us on four legs, but what I was gonna say about that was like it's spot on. It's the. When you go from a mindset of being like conscious and able to make decisions and able to like process to reactive, like when you're sucked into something that feels out of control, or if you can even see yourself in your mind's eye and recognize that you're like different or behaving in a way that you're not intending to, I think that's a really good sign for people to be like oh wait a second, I am either triggered or activated or whatever you wanna call it.
Speaker 1:I've been conditioned to think that this is a normal way to react to the situation and, like I said, a lot of us go through it and don't even realize it and, like I said, you have to be in a really good space to actually be open to it.
Speaker 2:It's so true, and I think, in the example that you shared, two things One, it's like props to you for being able to be in a space where you can receive a cue or a signal from someone else of, oh, I can hear feedback. And also like props to your brother and to like your family for having like a connection where you have someone that can give you feedback, feedback and feedback that you can hear.
Speaker 1:Cause I think that's.
Speaker 2:It's really hard when you've been hurt in some way or when you are still in a process of healing, where you're not far enough out of it to be able to see things for yourself. Feedback is so valuable. It's like one of the only ways you can really gauge, like, what's going on and is it getting better, is it worse? What do you need to do? But it's really hard Cause, like feedback can be such a gift and also it's hard to give and it's hard to hear.
Speaker 1:And then I also think it's like very important on how you give the feedback, cause I feel like you know if you're giving the feedback, you know, not in a neutral sense then, yeah, people are going to react. That's a natural thing. But if you're giving it for, like, productivity, or you're giving it because you're like hey, I'm missing the word, but if you're trying to give it in a way where you're actually trying to help somebody, then it's different, it comes off different.
Speaker 2:So approach is huge. Yep, it's true. I've heard it called, you know, feed forward, so like giving information in order to improve.
Speaker 1:I was going to say positive feedback. That's what I was trying to do. I was like, why did I lose that word? Positive, constructive, yes, making it about wanting to better the person.
Speaker 2:I think that you're right. It does make a big difference.
Speaker 1:I went productive and I was like I mean, technically it is productive, but that wasn't the word. But now we got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like the middle ground between positive and constructive productive.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:That's great. You just made me think of another thing on the feedback topic. Actually, I lost it. It'll come back at some point, oh well.
Speaker 2:Oh that's what it was. Of course, when you're ready to move on we were, you know some of what we wanted to chat about was like victim mentality, and so you know we've chatted a little bit about like when you go through hard experiences whether or not you call that trauma and then you sort of your life changes in a way where that state becomes like your new norm, then this sense of like feeling, like it has happened to you or the world life is yes.
Speaker 2:That sort of if we want to call that like victim mentality. That can really be something that in some way like if it fits with your narrative and your story there's some comfort in that, like you've been a victim before and so there's familiarity to it, like there's some safety in that, and it can be really hard to. It's also not speaking of feedback and it being productive. It's also not easy to hear from someone hey, you have a victim mentality.
Speaker 1:That might not be the right language, I'm not gonna lie. My brother did say that to me directly and it took me a second and I said no, Kelly, he's actually coming from a good place. Just you know, and it's keeping your ego in check. I think, that's the biggest thing, and I think the victim mentality also comes from your ego, trying to protect yourself, but protecting yourself in the wrong way, where it's at they're the problem.
Speaker 2:You are not the problem. You know what I mean, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, victim mentality does sort of spare you. It's an out for agency or accountability. You know, like you, it's powerlessness right which, as you know, when you think about powerlessness, that doesn't sound great or desirable but it can be comforting, because then you don't really have to do anything different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then let things happen. Yeah, but then the worst parts is you hit the self-loathing parts of it and just like really tough on yourself because in your mind, like I said, you're powerless. You don't have the control to change this, so you're like everything keeps happening against me.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, it's. I mean, it's just exhausting that whole. As you were describing that, it just sounds exhausting. You just want to take a breath after saying, yeah, I feel like we need wine and cheese with this.
Speaker 1:I know we're going to have to definitely do that next time. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I should have said yes, absolutely, when I asked about what should I bring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wine to wind down the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. That's too funny. No, oh wow, I didn't know you. What else do you have there?
Speaker 1:Oh, I have, there's like a trombone. Oh, oh, my goodness, you know, if I was a DJ, wow, ok, yeah, then Buh-buh-buh-buh. Oh I love that one. I think that's my favorite.
Speaker 2:Ok, yeah we'll have to bring that back to you more times.
Speaker 1:Just wink at me and I'll just hit the button for you. Well, no, OK, that's perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the victim mentality thing is it's a harder and harder topic.
Speaker 2:I feel like we were chatting a little bit before about how you know like there's been this great progressive move culturally for us where we are becoming way more aware of our impacts on people, and it's super valuable to think not only from this place of oh, I intend well and so therefore, like everything must be well, like we're becoming much more conscientious of, like intent doesn't equal impact, yes, and at the same time, there is also, culturally, a phenomena happening where there's a lot more, we're much more aware of sensitivities, and while that is great, you can be too cautious.
Speaker 1:It's also scary. I mean, like I was telling you earlier, the word snake someone put on their story the other day. They said that it's crazy because this guy's son is like telling him that it's ridiculous that they're taking the word snake away and replacing it with slithery, slippery friends or something like that. And I'm just like, if that's where we're going, how much more sensitivity is going to happen?
Speaker 2:How many things are they going to take away On the other hard part, again from a mental health perspective, while the intent is oh, we want to be more sensitive or protective of people and, in turn, more mindful of people's mental health. The paradox of that is, for things like anxiety, like anything you're sensitive about, is actual avoidance.
Speaker 2:While it might feel better in the moment, it makes problems much, much worse in the long run, and so you can't deal with anything you can't, and so you more or less incapacitate people to, instead of teaching them how to manage yeah, instead of teaching coping, like we chatted about, this related to dogs, too. If you have a dog that is afraid of something, or if you have a dog that is charging at people, or something like that. The answer is not to isolate them.
Speaker 2:The answer is not to protect them or punish them. That's a great point. That's totally counterproductive but rather, whether it's a dog or a person like it's, a matter of matching environment and tools and training and practice to help them find ways to experience safety in different environments that otherwise would have been triggering or activating for them. And that's hard because that's a lot of work right Like none of that is easy at all. When you talked about coming from growing up and having really difficult experiences, whether it's bullying or aspects of Asian culture that was hard for you.
Speaker 1:I didn't look like the typical Asian girl small.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then. So that was hard for me too, and that hit me heavy on just how I looked at myself.
Speaker 2:Because you weren't matching a stereotype or an ideal for beauty, or even back when I was younger, Strong wasn't in. That wasn't cool yeah.
Speaker 1:You were just looking at all these Victoria's Secret models and you were like, wow, they are so tall, skinny, they don't really have any calves. You know what I mean Actually they have zero calves but the crazy part is it messes with our heads because the camera adds on a little bit more weight.
Speaker 1:So what they look like on there, they're even more thinner in real life, and so for me when I took pictures of or had pictures, I was just like, oh my god, yeah, I'm like a, I feel like I'm so out of this world, like something's wrong with me, but funny story, yeah, when I was younger.
Speaker 2:Oh, funny story, it's a funny story, ok.
Speaker 1:Top, wait, nope, oh, top Up. Ok, funny story guys here, let me try it again. Funny story. Maybe not so funny, but when I was younger I had big calves and I literally looked up surgeries to reduce my calf size.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah.
Speaker 1:And I looked up surgeries to reduce my shoulder.
Speaker 2:Oh, Shoulders Because it felt like that word, it felt counter to what you thought you needed to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because when I was younger I think what happened for the youth group? We had to order these Vietnamese dress and I got measured Everything measurement got sent over there and they still were like she's everywhere is correct except for her shoulders. So they took my shoulders. So when I went to go put it on I felt like a linebacker.
Speaker 2:Oh, see that and that stuff at that age especially like it's tough yeah. That is like the age where those types of experiences like talk about trauma.
Speaker 1:Yeah, legit, that stuff really can impact a lot when you're going through that phase. But my dad did let it out.
Speaker 2:He was pretty good at that, but I cried like a baby and my dad.
Speaker 1:I felt like he didn't know what to do and he was just OK, I can let it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah.
Speaker 2:So now, like you seem to have a very different relationship with your body, with physically how you interact with the world. How did you get to that point? I?
Speaker 1:think I stopped. I just stopped comparing myself to people Okay. It's just not fair. Yeah, everybody, it's everybody's different. We have all different body types and. I just started accepting myself and even though it wasn't like everything that I wanted, but I worked to the point where I was like I'm good with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, like, I think the biggest thing is, like I said, comparison, comparing yourself to people, and I always use the term or I heard this, I think, three years ago you can't compete where you don't compare.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:Because everybody is very unique in their own sense. Yeah, and you know there's always going to be people that are prettier or smarter, but I'm me. You can't replicate that. I can't find anybody that's going to be exactly like you, and I think a lot of my confidence over the years before I made the connection with my physical body was I was so confident in who I was.
Speaker 1:I was confident that I was a good person and everything that I did. I never felt, you know, like I was doing something wrong, because I knew that I was always genuine. A lot of people got confused, but my confidence originally started with my personality and who I was as a person.
Speaker 2:If that makes sense, yeah, it does. And I mean gosh, I can't think of a better way to do it from the inside out.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, Actually now that you say that oh, what did I do? Hello, okay, I was like. Now that you say that, that's actually pretty valid, I did that without even thinking, yeah.
Speaker 2:It sounds like it was just so. I have noticed that you are very we've talked about this like a very intuitive person and that phrase trust the process like that I have shared with you. Like I actually don't feel like I'm a very intuitive person and I think that comes from for me. You know, I have gotten a lot of education. Like my understanding was like you learn how to do things, you read about things, you study things. Like I saw and I think honestly, for me personally, that came from in my family. My brother was like extremely academically gifted, like super intelligent, and I didn't understand that there are different types of intelligence, and so I found myself like really pushing and driving towards this. Oh, I need to be more intelligent, the way my brother is, which is totally I put that on myself Like my parents weren't expecting that.
Speaker 2:No one was expecting of that, but I've now come forward. I'm 30. 36.
Speaker 1:And I know a 26. Okay, yeah, okay, sure, we can say that yeah.
Speaker 2:But I now have realized that that sort of that amount of analytical training and you need some degree of it to do psychotherapy and to I. It's a I've definitely have been gifted in those ways. I value that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the flip side of it is you know we're talking about continuance a bit the intuitiveness I think is harder to access when you are so focused on sort of like trying to understand, like the trying so hard or the intentional effort, and so because of that I think I don't identify as being as intuitive. However, it is in there, it's almost like I have to connect it.
Speaker 2:Yeah connect it. But I feel like for you do have like very just kind of intuitive, like natural access to that. And so when you talked about your way of healing through developing confidence with you, who you are, first I think that's probably related to you just having trusting the process being intuitive.
Speaker 1:And so that, I think, is super. I mean, it wasn't always easy.
Speaker 2:There was definitely a chance where I was just like I can't do this, yeah, I'm sure no, but to persist, even when it's not easy and to. That's totally something you can look back on now and be like yeah, I did that, yeah, and I think it just.
Speaker 1:I think it goes back to, you know, when you're younger and it's like when you kind of slightly find your purpose or you find part of it you know what I mean For me. I think my intuitiveness also came from, you know, when I was younger, where I, you know, just felt for people you know what I mean. Just like I think I told you the five year old story. I might have been five or six, I'm not sure, but I'm gonna stick with five because that's the number that pops into my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know I was at a youth group that I got made fun of a lot and you know, and to them it's just fun and funny.
Speaker 2:But it's not fun and funny when you're a kid you know, and I struggle to even understand that Like I do, I have absolutely seen.
Speaker 1:I know it's a real thing but I have.
Speaker 2:I have never connected with. I don't understand that Like it's just not funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you're so sensitive at that time. And I think because of my experiences when I became a youth leader, I was like anyone who made fun of a child, I was like dude, you know and I was like the advocate because, like I said, you don't realize this, but the stuff sticks with you. And it's not that you hold grudges and you're like screw that person. It's just no words, just don't. They don't go away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know yeah, but I was five and there was a girl at the temple. She had eczema. Her name's Kimmy. She was my best friend back in the day and I remember she was crying about it because people were making fun of her and me being me, I had no idea.
Speaker 1:I was like you know whatever. So I took my arm and I rubbed it on her and I said you know, whatever you have, I have. And she, she was still crying and I was like, stop crying. So I got on top of the toilet Not that I was using it and I pretended to fall. I don't know what in my mind said hey Kelly, just pretend to fall. And she laughed and I swear to you it was just something inside me just unlocked.
Speaker 1:And I was like this is part of what I'm supposed to do. I know it, you know and it's just ever since then. I've just been this goofy person trying to understand people and I guess as a child you have more room for feeling versus you know being analytical and doing the education part of it. So I think that probably was a lot to do with it where.
Speaker 1:I never really understood how I was able to feel emotions from people, but I guess this makes sense because you're making me understand myself more too. So I'm like oh wow, it does make sense. Actually, pretty valid.
Speaker 2:You had a very rewarding or fulfilling experience from kind of. You didn't know you were doing it in the moment, but like trusting your gut, like just going with whatever your feeling was. And it was like it, it was fulfilling to you because you saw how much it helped someone else and, yeah, I could totally see how that would reinforce for you that like trust your intuition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then my thing was I was too empathetic, but growing up like I've learned to you know, through all the healing that I've worked on with myself, because I mean a lot of my trauma.
Speaker 2:You know I gave everything that I had because I thought that's what it took for someone to love me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, through my friendships, through relationships, through you know, whatever situations ships that were involved. That's what I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it it wasn't until maybe two or three years ago.
Speaker 2:I realized that, wow, I'm repeating these because I keep going for the same thing and I keep going to familiar relationships, yeah, that sort of familiar, that familiarity is, that familiarity can feel like love or comfort, or because it's your conditioned into it.
Speaker 1:It's so true, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, this concept of opposites keeps coming up. I wasn't planning on talking so much about opposites, but there's actually literally a therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, which is based on there's always two sides to an issue, to an experience to you know, there's always this kind of paradox that can happen and I think that going through that experience of like you found this blessing of having some intuition and following that and having love, like in giving love and following that, there's also the downside to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can do too much of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, too heavy on that, and I think you know back on the topic of, in general, whatever the trauma is, if you cope by control, if you can cope by letting go of all control, like there's downsides to each sides of that, like both sides of that can be really like a struggle or a problem. So I think that a lot of life is about figuring out how to balance balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, sometimes we learn best by letting the pendulum swing a couple times until you're like you know what I'm good, I don't need to do that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then that's funny that you say that, because that's like saying you know too much of anything is bad for anything. So nothing's really bad and nothing's really good.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's so true, but that is really like kind of terrifying thing for people to accept, because we really like control, we really like knowing, we like to see it. We like concrete and you know you mentioned you were talking much earlier about I was speaking about trusting the process and you were kind of talking about. You know we have to trust that the world is not against us whether it's the source, or whatever you call your, you know, sort of guiding.
Speaker 1:Like I said, whatever your religion is, you were put on this earth with love. It wasn't. It wasn't you weren't you're supposed it's where put on this earth through all my experiences. I was put on this earth to go through that so that I could have these moments with you, so that I could help other people.
Speaker 1:It's like everybody has a different purpose and I feel like when you start to trust that and understand that and be like you know all these experiences are working in my favor you know, and I think that's the big part of it, cause I don't think anyone's born on this earth where it was like you were born on this earth to you know, just be a chit show, or whatever you know that is.
Speaker 2:I mean that is huge there's. There was a large sort of I won't call it movement, but Victor Frankel wrote a lot about I think his book was man's search for meaning. But the idea was that, like, whatever you go through, if you can find meaning in it, if you can look through, whatever the hardship is, if you can sort of focus down on did this happen for some cause, if you can find meaning, like even some really hard shit can somehow be turned into something like magnificent.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's really hard to do on your own accord. I think you know, I think that's a lot of where people go to faith, religion, spirituality, whatever it is but that can be really hard if you don't have some sort of like a spiritual practice or a religion or people in your life that you surround yourself with that help you get feedback and find meaning and or like even the self love. Like you mentioned journaling before, that can be a great way to find like meaning in things, but it's all hard.
Speaker 1:You have to do the work. I, yeah, no, cause I mean, journaling isn't easy, you know, starting off, you just have to write whatever it is and you know, and whoever's starting out there, if you're listening, just write, even if it's one word it's gonna get easier every single day.
Speaker 1:And when you start writing down situations and things that you go through and you read back on it, you realize that you're pulling yourself out of it. And you look into it, it's wow, maybe I did, you know, or maybe it's not so bad, or maybe you know everything I felt at that time. You just know that everything's temporary too, you know and I think that's the biggest thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so much healing that can come from writing.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and it's hard yeah and if writing's not your thing, you know sing or movement and I feel like a lot of people don't dance or move, but it really you don't understand how much trauma and like stress and stuff you hold in your body and it's. I didn't realize this until I took a yoga class like a couple of years ago, and I did this pose and I started crying, yeah, and I was like I don't understand what's happening and it's. I'm not sad, but I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been in yoga classes before where people were weeping from poses.
Speaker 1:I've also I've both personally experienced and heard people tell stories about getting massages and, for whatever reason, something was just held in a certain part of their body and when that gets released emotions can really and it's you know, whenever you're stressed, a lot of it's in your traps, your shoulders and right in the middle of the shoulder blades. Yep, it's you know. And then, and that's a part of it. Yes, because your hips don't lie. Oh perfect, Did I get it. But yeah, it does, and you know massages could be self-care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's so many different ways. I also think that you know we were talking about consuming before, and sometimes consuming can be a really good thing If you don't know where to start with self-love or healing and if you don't have someone around you that you know has ideas that you can try out and use the internet.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Go search it. There are so many ideas out there for how to take care of yourself, and sometimes just getting inspired with something that you didn't think of yourself.
Speaker 1:ChatGPT is out there too. It's just, it's so true, Actually that's brilliant.
Speaker 2:I have not thought about that use for ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:I've literally watched people go, come up with this business plan for me or business idea or something with my likes of I don't know my interests of this. And it just like spits out like so much so it's. It's scary, but it's.
Speaker 2:I mean it's here so we should try to use it too. Oh yeah, I like that idea. I like that idea, yeah. So I had mentioned that I don't practice psychotherapy as much now I've been on hiatus from that for a while, but now I feel like you could you probably get a lot of healing done just from ChatGPT. Get some of your therapy through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hey, chatgpt, I'm feeling so down today.
Speaker 2:What should I do, yeah?
Speaker 1:Actually I might the next episode we get on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2:I'll be my, I'll be my catch up for you. I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that, I guess, because I mean, I think a lot of people don't do therapy because it's expensive you know Some people don't have health insurance you know, and some people do and still don't utilize it which is like I'm like what why?
Speaker 2:not. It's also really hard to find. I shouldn't say a good therapist, I should say the right therapist, cause the right therapist is like finding you know, the right friendship, the right relationship like.
Speaker 1:Whatever it is the match really matters.
Speaker 2:And a lot of the times when you're struggling, it can be even more painful to not match with someone and to try that can really hurt. And so if you don't have an established therapist that you already know as a go-to, if you try to get into it when you really need it, and that's when most people try- right when they really need it. So I think that is a huge challenge for people and there's lots of services that have gotten better at that, you know, to help match people with the right therapist and such and to make it more accessible, but it is still just hard.
Speaker 1:It is not easy and you know, just like she said, advice out there is if you're looking for a therapist and you happen to go to a therapist that you're like, ah, it's not good for me, that doesn't mean that you're not good for therapy, that means that you just haven't found your match.
Speaker 1:And I like that you brought that up because that's very important, because a lot of people that I've talked to, who have you know, tried, they get discouraged by that aspect. And then I have friends who were like you know, they went through like a couple and they found a person. They were like, oh my gosh, I could never not talk to this person, you know. So it is a journey, it is totally a journey and it's it.
Speaker 2:matches is part of it but, also like match for where you are and for what you're working on so like it is totally legit and okay to even if you have a therapist that you love for whatever you've been working on with them to talk to them about how maybe there are some other things that you need to work on. And maybe it's time to also try like a different therapist or a different modality, so I think kind of like we started out the episode with, like different ways to practice self love.
Speaker 2:Kind of depends on like your mood or like matching where you're at. I think therapy can be that way too. You have to find the right person for the right yes exactly, and so being open with yourself and whoever you're working with to reach that point, I think is really important.
Speaker 1:I didn't even think about it that way, but now it's like connecting the dots and hope. You guys out there, you know, reconsidering if you've had any past, like you know, mishaps or just not connections, but it is out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's totally out there and there are such a like a wide spectrum for why people go to therapy, like, yeah, it can be really like clear cut trauma, like very like classic textbook trauma. It can be like we talked about. You know certain experiences when you were feeling vulnerable or certain phases of life.
Speaker 2:It can literally be like phases of adjustment. There is a diagnosis called adjustment disorder where, like it's literally, you can have symptoms of depression or anxiety that come up during a phase of life. That is hard and this, to me, is like very at the forefront of my mind, like I just had a baby about almost a year ago now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know postpartum is hard for a lot of reasons, but I think a big part of it is like it's a huge adjustment and I think for people should just know that there's like nothing. There's no level of intensity or type of experience that is a requisite for going to therapy.
Speaker 1:Like you go to therapy when you feel like you're stuck or something's off or you could be getting more out of your life, and it doesn't need to be anything. Like you know, I mean, people go for traumatizing things, but like it doesn't have to be traumatizing. It could be, hey, you're right, I'm stuck, or hey, I really want to, like you know, do this and that, but it's like I can't bring myself to do it and usually it might be a blockage of maybe it's something that you don't even realize. That's going on, that's happening and they can help you uncover that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that's, and that's part of what I fell in love with psychology in general that it can absolutely be used to help people when they are truly not unwell, Like there's absolutely a place for that. But there is also this other side of it to maximizing your life, maximizing your potential that I think yeah sometimes we we miss that side of things. I think it's valuable regardless.
Speaker 1:Yep In all aspects, so don't think of it as a thing that you're like only for this case. There's so many different cases. So, I love that you brought that up, because I feel like a lot of the times when we think of therapy, we're like, oh, something must be wrong but it's not really true, and I feel like our perception of ourselves and things need to change too. It's no, not that something's wrong, it's hey, I'm bettering my life. It's a changing the toner, the way you think about things is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can be used for sharpening your tools. It can be used for, you know, like you mentioned, feeling stuck or like wanting to get better at something. Also, it could literally be used for, you know, I feel like I don't know myself. Well, I feel like I just need a mirror to kind of help me understand myself better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's, it goes back to. I think this is funny too, because it's you know, you just walk around and someone just one day asks you like how are you doing?
Speaker 2:And you answer yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm good, but then when they walk away, you're like wait, how, how am I doing?
Speaker 2:It's like you don't really check in with yourself.
Speaker 1:So you saying that's pretty valid Cause sometimes it's happened to me a lot of times in the elevator and I'm like, yeah, I'm good, and then I'm like hey, what?
Speaker 2:I think so. It's true. Yeah, it's very true, yeah, that that part I will say, that piece of if you can do that for yourself, great. If you can have the discipline to check in with yourself regularly, fantastic. Life does go fast, and so it does not hurt to have someone to talk to, but forces you to look at yourself regularly.
Speaker 1:Nope, I agree, man.
Speaker 2:I think we've solved all of the world's problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, I think so too, and oh snap. No, I'm so happy we did this. And it's crazy cause I don't know if you guys know, but I met Jess at the gym. You know, I just kept being very like in her face. Hi, what's up.
Speaker 2:She didn't have to try that hard. I was very quickly Yep, this is a person.
Speaker 1:And then it was me and that really got me, so me and his, her son, I remember he was. You guys were pushing him on a stroller through the gym and I had the deer park bottle. I don't know if this works anymore, but oh, I bet it would work. Yeah, I bet it's like I just kept crinkling it and it caught his attention and he would smile and he just loved it Magic.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have to bring that back. Or maybe I should say that for the next time you see him, you can just show up with your deer park bottle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know there's stock there.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:But no, I'm so grateful to have met you and I'm I hope that you know you'll be on more of these with me, because I think you're incredible and it's nice to get your insight on it, you know.
Speaker 2:I would love to. This is I always enjoy chatting with you and I think it's. It takes a lot of searching to find people that want to have in depth conversations on stuff Like this is not like it's hard to chat about this in the bathroom with the gym, like you're like okay, I got to go and do my next.
Speaker 1:You know lift. I got four lifts that I said I was going to do yeah.
Speaker 2:But I also think that there's, you know, going back to kind of the intuition side, like I say, I don't have it, but I do get a sense of like I can feel when I have a good vibe with someone.
Speaker 2:And I remember instantly feeling that with you, and I think some of that's related to like you don't always know how much someone either relates to you or you can learn from them or you can be inspired from them, like you don't always know all of that until you like start, until you sit down and you start to dig in. So I enjoy this conversation, both for getting to know and connect with you more, and also, you know we chatted a little bit about if anyone is out there and they're either unsure, they don't know how to connect, they don't know what they think about therapy any of that, I think that's huge, if they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that you know to all you guys listening out there, we just hope that you know, whatever has been shared today you guys take with you. I think that we both have kind of the same. You know. We just want to debunk some of the things that you know is hard to decipher and make it a little bit easier and just give you guys a little bit more foresight on things, and sometimes we do that by also letting you know we have no idea what we're doing in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the crazy part is you know, you think everybody knows but once you really talk to people you're just like wow, you don't know, just like I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's some comfort. Yeah, you guys are not alone.
Speaker 1:We're all lost because life is a journey. It's not a growth, isn't linear.
Speaker 2:Like linear.
Speaker 1:I was like linear for growth isn't linear it's. You know, sometimes it could be sideways and sometimes it might go down and then go back up. You know, it's just like we said earlier trust the process and the world is not out to get you. I just know that everything that is happening for you to see or to figure out, whatever it is, yep, yeah, thanks for joining us and thank you for joining me. I will see you guys next time and we will see you guys next time we will.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. Thank you, wow, that was great. Did you like the? I feel?
Speaker 1:like a DJ, now like a Fred again. He's like, yeah, but okay, bye, Bye. Last time, in last time, on youryk.