Liz Wiseman Maximizing Educational Impact: Multiplier Leadership and Empowering School Systems

Unlock the secrets of multiplier leadership in education with Liz Wiseman, whose groundbreaking work is now a core part of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association Professional Learning Suite. Liz joins us to discuss her journey, including pivotal moments with influential figures like Kerry Patterson, and how embracing the multiplier approach can transform schools into high-performing, exhilarating environments. You'll learn how leaders can harness the full potential of their teams, leading to triple the productivity and creating a lasting, positive impact on both educators and students.

Reflect on the profound impact of a play-based childhood and pressure-free education systems as we share personal anecdotes about the creativity and self-directed learning fostered by permissive educators and non-elite school settings. Hear touching stories of how educators' seemingly playful comments can shape student self-perception and the significant "multiplier moments" that steer children's educational journeys. This episode delves into the emotional aspects of parenting and education, highlighting how nurturing individual strengths can lead to remarkable personal growth and confidence.

Get inspired by real-world success stories, from medical schools producing multiplier physician leaders to Amy Ruzicka's transformative work as superintendent of Bayless School District. Discover the critical role of coaching in sustaining multiplier leadership and how it can drive systemic change in educational settings. Liz Wiseman's insights emphasize that true leadership not only tackles complex challenges but also fosters an invigorating work environment. If you’re ready to explore these powerful concepts further, don’t miss out on the Multiplier course available on the New South Wales PPA website.

To view our Professional Learning Offerings visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

Transcript

Drew: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Season 2 of the Principal Learnings Podcast. If you're a principal or educational leader looking to enhance your skills, this is the place for you, so let's get into it, let's embark on this learning journey together.

Liz: 0:18

I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier leader, and both kind of can get you there, but in one way to look at it is you want to lead this way because you get more from people. And I think that was what was so shocking to me in the research is how diminishing leaders were getting less than half of people's available intelligence, whereas multipliers were getting virtually all of it available intelligence, whereas multipliers we're getting virtually all of it. It's a 2x effect broadly, but when we go into our school districts it starts to look more like a 3x difference. And there is a compelling reason to lead this way, which is, you know, my short understanding, or my summary of my understanding of the challenges in education is like education has all the challenges in education is like education has all the challenges that businesses and for-profit having. They just have them, I think, in in like sharper ways. In sharper ways, I think the problems are a little bit more acute and harder. So, like educational leaders need to be able to do more by getting more from people. That's one reason.

Liz: 1:25

But I'm always reminded and when I think of myself as a leader and like why I want to lead this way, some of it comes to gee, I want to get the most from people because we got hard problems to solve and I need this, but I remind myself that the real reason to lead this way is about legacy, and not just how much you get from people, but what kind of work experience do you offer and what's the impact on the people you lead? And how do you really want to be remembered as a leader? And when I boil it down to you know what I've learned from 35 years of leading, and my own research is you know, I want to be remembered as a leader. People grow around and maybe that's it, and it's about getting more, but it's also about giving to people an experience that feels less exhausting and more exhilarating. Feels less exhausting and more exhilarating.

Drew: 2:28

Today's episode is dedicated to unpacking the work of Liz Wiseman with a focus on Multipliers, which is a new addition to the New South Wales Primary Principals Association Professional Learning Suite that has been gaining a lot of popularity with schools, executives and principal networks across New South Wales. I'm really looking forward to sharing this discussion that we have with Liz, as well as the impact and relevance of multipliers in the educational leadership landscape. Liz, Wiseman, to our podcast. It's great to have you with us and I'm looking forward to our discussion today.

Liz: 3:05

Well, it's absolutely a pleasure to be with you, and I look forward to this conversation.

Drew: 3:11

Yeah, so am I. I'm really looking forward to where we're really going to look at from your work in the educational leadership space. We're going to start with leadership development, though, is your work is about shaping effective leaders. What was a particular moment or influence in your career that sparked your passion, Liz, in this field?

Liz: 3:37

I feel like my career was very much shaped by educators and educational leaders and I think you know probably the sharpest moments where I was shaped by that was one being a student in uni in Carrie Patterson's OB 321 class, that's Organizational Behavior 321. I'm an undergraduate, it's a course you know, and my undergraduate degree was in finance and I took this organizational behavior class from the great and now unfortunately late Carrie Patterson, who had written a number of best-selling books People might know them from Crucial Conversations and Crucial Confrontations and Inf confrontations and influence her and change anything. I imagine some of your listeners have read these books. And he was my professor and I think I fell in love with the subject matter of interpersonal communications and leadership and I kind of fell in love with the idea of doing the kind of work Kerry was doing and he very much inspired me and I ended up going to work for him and it was the only job that I ever desperately wanted, where, like when I'm interviewing, I'm like, oh, don't screw this up, liz, I'm trying to use Jedi mind tricks to hire me for the job. And I went to work for him and he was this incredible multiplier to me and someone who believed in me, gave me hard things to do but also didn't tolerate me doing anything less than great work. And I remember vividly turning in sloppy work to him and having him kind of respond with no, not okay. And you know there's this one moment where you know he was a great thinker and a great author and so so brilliant. I'm editing some of his writing and you know I'm fixing up a bunch of stuff and I get to this one part that was really convoluted and sort of a tangle of words and I'm like, oh, that needs to be fixed.

Liz: 5:57

And I remember writing AWK in the margin you know standard editorial term for awkward and I'm like, kerry, he's so smart, you know he was my professor, you know he'll know how to fix this. I just need to like point out what's not working and he'll fix it with that great big brain of his. And you know I did all my edits and took my the document over, left it on his desk while he was at lunch and I could tell he had come back from lunch and I could tell he was coming to see me because I could hear him like marching down the hallway like aggressively toward my office. And you know he pops in and he doesn't say hello, he doesn't say anything, he just looks at me like eye contact, and he said don't you ever give me an AWK without an FIX? Like don't point out what's wrong, like, fix it. I hired you because I think you're smart and capable, whatever.

Liz: 7:01

And I remember him walking over and he did it, of course, with this twinkle in his eye, like a great educator would, and just dropped that document on my desk with this thud, with no other explanation than don't you ever give me an AWK without an FIX. And I was like, okay, I think I've just been schooled a little bit and let me think a little harder, let me fix this problem. And then I kind of sheepishly took it back and, you know, returned it to him. But he was this, I think, person that made me fall in love with the idea of the power of leaders and the ability to like direct and shape and influence and make an impact in the world, but also this ability to engender people's best thinking and best work. And so carrie was someone who was an educator, he was a leader, he was, you know, my boss. I did this internship for him who kind of set me down this path.

Drew: 8:06

Yeah, that was your multiplier moment.

Liz: 8:09

Yeah, and you know it was also like and I think the way he works like reminded me that being a multiplier leader is not about being kind, supportive, nice, trusting, empowering. It's also coupled with being demanding.

Drew: 8:31

Yeah.

Liz: 8:32

You know, I remember, you know fast forward. Oh goodness, this is probably two, almost three decades later where I've done the research behind multipliers and I've written, I'm writing this book. And I reach out to him. I'm like Kiri, they want me to write a book proposal. I have no idea how to do that. And he's like I tell him the idea and he said well, this is such a good idea that I'm just mad I didn't think of it.

Liz: 9:00

And then he said to me don't write a warm-up book. He said this is an important idea. You go and write a big book. He said you write a New York Times bestselling book, because that's what this idea needs. And it really raised my sights on this. And he said and I'd be happy to give you feedback. And oh my gosh, karius is like brilliant writer, brilliant thinker. I'm like I'll take that offer. And you know, I send him a couple chapters and writes back like 45 minutes after I had mailed them to him. You know, emailed them. He writes me back and he's like girl, have you done your homework? You know? And girl, can you write? And I'm just like swelling with confidence and pride and I'm just so delighted that he's pleased. And then he said you know why don't you come to my office and make an appointment, like let's get two hours and I'll go through and give you some detailed feedback, and I'm like great.

Drew: 10:09

Yeah.

Liz: 10:10

So I fly two states away. I go to visit him and, honestly, I had gone there. Like in hindsight I could now see that I had gone there seeking more affirmation and praise from my hero.

Drew: 10:26

Yeah.

Liz: 10:27

And for the next two hours he shreds my work. He's like oh, I really haven't time to read the new chapters in advance, so why don't I just read them aloud and give you my thoughts real time?

Drew: 10:41

It's interesting.

Liz: 10:43

And he's like this is terrible, that's bad. I don't agree. That's aah. And he's like this is terrible, that's bad, I don't agree. That's a weak argument. And for two hours. And when we get done, he, you weren't expecting that, no, no, Because what was the bait was Girl. Can you write? That's what I heard, and and and you know, when we get done with this, I'm like man, that was painful and he looks up for what you know from like his editing. And he looked at me like I think, looking for approval, that like he'd been helpful. And I'm like Carrie, that was painful, that was horrible, Like the only thing that could have made that worse was if I was also naked while you were doing that. I was standing on a stage and everyone was watching me while you were doing that. I'm like that was horrible. And then he just smiled and he said, Liz, I'm giving you my harshest feedback because I think your work deserves it and I think you can handle it.

Drew: 11:47

Yeah, Liz, he knows you. You've had a history prior and, like you've been able to have that with Kerry, you've been able to shape and mold and he gave you a vision, which what a good leader does, and he gave you that New York Times bestseller for you and I could see the excitement when you said it's like, wow, that is a vision I haven't even thought of yet, and he just planted that seed, he made you grow to that level and he just he.

Drew: 12:18

He planted that seed, he made you grow to that, to that level.

Liz: 12:24

Absolutely, and I hadn't thought of it and I hadn't had that vision. I think he might have even said something like Liz, don't be stupid, don't do a warm-up book. And I'm thinking he's reading my mind. I probably was going to do like this is my first one, let me warm up and, like you know, maybe a few thousand people read it, and he really sets these sights like this could be important and I think you can do it and you need to do it. So like buck up and go do this. And so for me, he was probably one of my most influential educators, most influential leaders, and he also really represents that the leaders who bring out the best in us are not just supportive, like they do more than just create safety, they add equal measures of stretch, and it's when those conditions come together that I think we do our best work.

Drew: 13:25

Yeah, absolutely Liz. And so it goes to become a New York Times bestseller. What was the response after that

Liz: 13:56

Well, a copy of the manuscript, like the final or the book, and I wrote him this letter and sort of recounted the impact that he had on me, including that moment where he, like, ripped me, who called me and told me, or if his assistant told me, but he printed off that letter and he framed it and put it on his wall. He told me he did that. It was assistant who said you know, it's the only thing on his office wall, like, he doesn't put up anything. And this is someone who's gotten fan mail for like and, and I think it was um.

Drew: 14:25

I think he was proud to have made that contribution and he was proud of me and I think he was appreciative that I recognized, like, what he had done for me yeah, yeah, and it's such a great story in terms of what you can draw upon and how it has shaped your amazing career and the impact it's having multiplies across the globe and in the education context and in terms of going to education. Let's talk about education in schools and what was the impact. What are your favorite memories, liz, about education or schooling?

Liz: 15:07

Well, I want to. I graduated from high school in 1982. So I was of the generation that was like free range, you know, where I had a childhood based in play, not in pressure. I'm, you know, or, as Jonathan Haidts new book. You know the Anxious Generation.

Drew: 15:28

I'm loving that book, Liz. Have you finished it or not?

Liz: 15:32

I'm not entirely done.

Drew: 15:35

That whole anxiety and, oh my gosh, it's a fascinating read, yeah.

Liz: 15:41

It is fascinating and you know, I'm realizing that, yeah, I had this benefit of a play-based childhood and I also went to schools that were solid schools in California, but these weren't elite schools, and I'm so grateful that I did not have this education that was based in pressure, this education that was based in pressure, and you know, we had educators, both teachers and educational leaders, who were permissive, and I remember just kind of being very much in charge of my education and, like my friends and I felt like we ruled the school, like we just started things, we did things. Nobody told us no, and I'm not sure if it's because they didn't care. They were just maybe glad that we weren't drug, you know, dealers on campus or if they saw promise in us. I'm not sure, but the effect was the same. And you know, strangely, one of my most pronounced memories in high school was this extra credit project I did, for it must have been a world history class. So I'm a little shy of the grade I needed I'm probably a B plus and I'm hoping to get an A in this class and so I asked the teacher if I could do extra credit. And he knows that I sew, so I started sewing and designing things when I was really young and somehow word had gotten out, maybe, I brought like a sewing project into class and he said OK, how about for extra credit? He said my classroom could really use a set of European flags. And why don't you make me a set of European flags? And I'm like I'd love to do that.

Liz: 17:28

So I made these little mini flags. They were on wooden dowels, about yay big, and then you know the like fabric for each one of the European countries. And what I remember about this is when I made them and we go to install them, I realize that all of the flags are going one direction, but Sweden is that the blue and yellow flag. I put it on backwards and it's going the other direction. And so I say to him you know, hey, I got to go redo this one. And he said it's perfect, just the way it is. And he displayed these front and center in his classroom, like right above the whiteboard, the chalkboard, and I thought that's awfully nice of him to do that. And I went back years later to go visit him and those same flags were still up there. And by golly, sweden is backwards and it was good enough. And I think it's one of the things I think. Fortunately, I've been able to avoid some of the disease of perfectionism that sometimes schools and teachers cause.

Drew: 18:46

And I really remember his reaction hey, it's great, just the way it is. Yeah, the feedback was he gave you a vision. You accomplished that. He gave you some creativity as well, without the pressure points of it, and accepted the results and as a kid, you've gone. Yeah, I'm pretty good, this is great. So validated that. So that's nice, it's and that, and then era as we've we're watching it in education like that 80s, 90s period was a really fantastic time respectively now of being a kid, because it's that child-based play, that ability to be creative and interactive and all those human traits that we all crave. So, yeah, so that's the multiply moment. What about if we flip it to accidental, diminishing memories in school, anything that comes through without and this isn't a therapy session, this is just thinking around was there anything you went?

Liz: 19:54

you know I can't think of an accidentally mo moment per see I, did grow up in the era where teachers were quick to label people like good at math, bad at math. And I remember my physics teacher used to kind of tease me and he would like be going through a lesson and he'd always stop and ask me Liz, you know, do you understand it? And I'm like yeah, I got it. And he's like, ok, we can move on, Liz has got it.

Liz: 20:30

You know, and I think it was because I was maybe extroverted, I was a cheerleader and so like he would use me kind of as this little lightning rod and it was done with, like it was playful, and I experienced it as playful and I remember kind of almost feeling loved when he did that. But then you know, when you look in hindsight, boy, you know a comment like that can really do some damage, and not in terms of hurting someone, but keeping someone in a box that they don't belong in. And you know, now that I have raised, for the most part, you know, four now adult children, I've seen how sometimes a comment from me can, like even pointing out what someone is good at, can imply what someone isn't good at, and I've learned to be more cautious with that.

Drew: 21:33

Yeah, that's tricky, Liz. I was going to go there next. Liz, you said you're a mother of four and you've got a unique perspective you've grown up with in education. Liz, what about your kids' educational journeys? Have they had their multiplier moments in their schooling that you could share?

Liz: 21:53

Oh, yes, and Drew, honestly this might make me cry, you know, like tears of joy, because, as like a mother, like this is what you hope for for your children and, um, maybe I can share a quick one from from each child, um, you know, our oldest please, yeah, thank you, thank you for sharing and, and, yeah, being vulnerable too.

Liz: 22:17

Yeah, yeah um, I'm like, I'm happy to share this. Um is, you know, our oldest. Uh, we kind of put her in preschool early and we put her into kindergarten elementary school and she was still four, because that's kind of the age I started and that seemed normal to us. But she was younger than everyone else and at the end of her first year of kindergarten she really wasn't ready to go on to first grade. So now we're grappling with do we hold her back?

Liz: 22:48

And this like feels high stakes and you know I had heard word that the school was really going to want to push her on. So that you know, for lots of reasons and I went into this like IEP meeting this individual education plan there were the various educational leaders and her teacher and the school psychologist in this team assembled and I remember her teacher describing how much she loved school, like school was a joyous for her, it wasn't a struggle, but she was a little bit like maybe clueless and not ready to move on. And I remember this one school leader saying this is a child who clearly loves school and if we push her on she might feel behind and it might jeopardize that. And this is what I remember and it's what makes me want to cry? Because I cried at the time and this leader said let's keep this student loving school and let's have her do kindergarten again.

Liz: 23:50

So she like maintains this love and positive association with school and I'm just like thank you thank you for like, like understanding, like that is what's going to carry her through and of course she's thriving today and, you know, has done well and like.

Liz: 24:09

That's the moment. And you know, I remember another moment with our second where her probably her second or third grade teacher like said hey, I'm kind of having this problem with Amanda because she's taking longer than everyone else to finish things and when it's time for a recess she's not going out to recess because she wants to finish everything perfectly. And this is our daughter who I don't know that she, I think she had one B in her entire elementary and high school education and then maybe she had a B off at university. Everything else has been just A's and she helped me see. Oh, she loves to do things perfectly and she's diligent. But I remember this teacher saying I'll stay in recess so she can stay here and get it exactly the way she wants it to be, and that early heads up that this is just who she was was invaluable later. That was one of these moments.

Drew: 25:21

Absolutely, Liz, and leveraging strengths can be incredibly powerful. However, without deep understanding of individual traits, working styles, it can also be misused. Perfection, while seen as a strength, can also be weaponized if it isn't handled with care In the context of education. These two stories really underscore the profound faith and dedication that teachers embody. The teachers approach their work with love and commitment, striving to bring out the best in their students. These are the multiply moments, where teachers recognize and amplify the strengths of their students and colleagues and demonstrate their transformational power of support and understand in the educational context.

Liz: 26:07

Oh, absolutely. And these moments are just so precious. And I remember with our third, our son, christian, who just has always had like marched to the beat of his own drum, as they said, and always been like wildly creative and just wildly energetic and in some ways like the teacher's worst nightmare, greatest dream kind of student. I remember his fifth grade teacher saying you know, here is what he's brilliant at, and for the entirety of his fifth grade year she just emphasized his strengths as a student and what he was good at, and that's where she put her eyes and I watched him blossom. And then I think it was his senior year in high school.

Liz: 26:53

He had this AP, so the advanced placement, the college credit, literature, and he was not a student who was getting all A's and so we were shocked that he was taking AP literature, which was one of the hardest classes in the school, from this beloved, renowned literature teacher, Ms Atsuka, and I remember her finding he adored her and I remember her finding me on open house night and saying you know, of all my years teaching, so she's teaching all these like college prep, ivy League school, kind of you know bound students, and she said he is the best student I've ever had, by far the most curious, insightful, et cetera, et cetera. My son got a C in her class and what I saw was like a teacher who could separate out oh, here's the mechanics of his performance like he didn't turn it in and she didn't give her favorite student an A, but she could see like this was someone who just was thoughtful and loved learning and was curious and was there for the right reasons not to get an A and move on. And like a teacher who can see that promise in a student who's not necessarily ticking all the boxes Incredible. And finally, you know my, our last, who is now in college as a computer science major.

Liz: 28:22

Just I remember like the relationship he had with his computer science teacher and just the way she made learning about computers exciting and she was also a mom and she said I get it, I have kids going through the same schools. Like I know what you're up against. If you ever find yourself struggling, come see me.

Drew: 28:46

Absolutely. It's all about relationships, vision and affirmation, isn't it, Liz, where you'll work on the multiplier moments, on highlighting how recognizing and amplifying strengths can lead to remarkable growth and success. When someone sees potential in you, and you might even see it in yourself, that fosters a sense of confidence as well as ambition. And and these stories, it's evident the way in which teachers engage with their students, offering positive affirmations, is setting a high expectation that students are eager to meet. So, from an educational perspective, these multiply moments are pivotal. They constantly emerge in the classroom and this approach resonated exceptionally well with the educational landscape, particularly in our context.

Liz: 30:07

Perhaps unintentionally, actions or behaviors have stifled potential? Without delving into particular war stories, can you share some examples of how accidental diminishing, or yourself as a parent? It was one of our kids I'll let everyone guess who that was who kind of got himself in trouble for, like you know, roughing it up with some of the other boys, and you know he wasn't picking fights but he just wasn't following all of the politically correct rules. You know he's a freshman in high school and I remember you know the educator saying well, he can't say that, he can't do that, he can't treat that person this way because like that's got hints of bullying and we just can't tolerate that.

Liz: 30:35

And I remember thinking, you know what, we might be being a little short-sighted, we might be overly protecting our students in the name of safety and anti-bullying, all of which are important, but like kids got to work that out themselves. And you know, maybe it would be better to let him learn from the consequences of his actions rather than, you know, getting a hand slap from the school. And you know, as we learn more and more about the consequences and I think the Anxious Generation and the book by Jonathan Haidt, you know, really emphasize that there are certain things in adolescence that kids have to learn kid to kid, that I think. Sometimes I've seen administrators hover too much to protect a student body that it actually suppresses learning. So I've seen that.

Drew: 31:33

Liz, Mistakes are essential for growth and development. A hover approach or a hover over approach might provide a temporary fix, but it doesn't lead to a long-term or long-term solutions. Instead, we need to focus on fostering independence, and resilience came through in Haight's work. Now, moving into the concept of intelligence, we flip to that. You've explored this extensively in your research, particularly with the Multiplies framework. From an educational leadership perspective, how do you see intelligence fitting into this framework? You've unpacked this concept very cleverly in your work. Could you expand on how you perceive intelligence in the context of educational leadership and how it aligns with the Multiplies approach?

Liz: 32:27

Yeah, well, when I began the research, I started with a pretty clear definition of intelligence. And you know it's this, of course, this ability to think and reason and solve hard problems. But it's also adaptive in nature. It's not just the ability to find an answer, it's this ability to adapt and change and learn as the world around us is changing. So it's this very growth-oriented view of intelligence which I think is, you know, very compatible with, like, carol Dweck's work and Carol and I actually had some fun, like she was one of the people who weighed in early on some of my research but it's also this notion that you know intelligence exists in many forms and you know it exists in technicolor rather than black and white. And I think that's probably the common message of maybe what I shared in educators who were multipliers to my children is they saw my children not as like units moving through a system, but as unique individuals with their own strengths, their own vulnerabilities and like how do we respect and appreciate intelligence in all its forms?

Drew: 33:52

Absolutely, Liz. Your stories perfectly highlight the importance of looking beyond the systems, grades and averages to focus on the human aspects of education. It's all about getting the best out of humanity. You mentioned the work of Jonathan Haidt, which adds another layer to our discussion on the evolution of schooling and education we're working through. It's a fascinating area to explore. Now I'd like to talk about the values of our association.

Drew: 34:21

You might know that the Franklin Covey aligns with the New South Wales Primary Principals Association. The multiplier framework has been incredibly successful with us to date, reflecting on our core values of support, empower, advocate and lead. We also integrate other leadership frameworks from Franklin Covey, such as the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and the Speed of Trust. These frameworks have significantly contributed to our approach and successes in educational leadership in New South Wales. Now I'm going to read this to you. This is actually an extraction from a website from the late Stephen Covey In 2010,.

Drew: 35:03

Stephen Covey considered the impact of multipliers could have in the world and he mused impact of multipliers could have in the world and he mused just imagine what would happen in our world if every leader on the planet took one step from diminisher to multiplier, serendipitously through the very company that Dr Covey co-founded. Millions of leaders will take up this step within the next decade. Imagine that, and Liz, that is from, obviously, the Wiseman Group. Liz, our audience would love to hear more about any real world success stories with multipliers that you could share. Any instances of multipliers in action, whether in education or leadership or another context, would be fascinating. Are there any multiplier moments or stories that stand out? Is there any multiplier moments or stories from an educational perspective or leadership perspective you could say has come through, that you could share?

Liz: 36:07

Well, boy, it's been a great privilege to watch organizations play with these ideas, adopt them, embed them deeply in their thinking and have's happening with educational systems around the world, and it's thrilling to watch. Maybe two that come to mind. One is a medical school that took the ideas and said you know what we need to not only be multipliers ourselves, we need to raise physician leaders who are going to be multipliers not know it alls and so we're going to completely rebuild our medical education curriculum to raise multipliers, and that's what we're producing. We're producing physicians who are multiplier leaders, and to see the dean of that medical school so deeply embraced the concepts and reinvent that medical education process was really interesting. Another that I learned about just recently was the work of Amy Ruzicka, who is the superintendent at the Bayless School District in St Louis, missouri. Now, this is an inner city school district that has all the challenges of a very diverse population macro, economic challenge, demographic challenge. She took over as a superintendent in February of 2022. And she had read Multipliers or the Multiplier Effect one of those two books and she wanted to share it with her team and I think she decided it was going to be one of the foundations for her leadership in this school district and she started by doing a book study not a big curriculum, a book study across her entire leadership team. And she did something very simple but very powerful. She asked all of her team members to focus on one multiplier experiment based on their accidental diminisher tendencies. Just one like, just focus on one things. And then she incorporated that into each one of their professional development plans you know their own individual plans and then she just stayed at it. And it's one of the things we see with leaders who really transform their organizations. It's not that they do something amazing hand-weighting or something expensive, they just stay at it. And she supported this with check-ins. She's letting people know like I'm really serious about this.

Liz: 38:55

She made some personnel changes where it became clear certain school leaders principals were really not going to be able to lead this way. She said, well, we're going to have to, you're going to have to lead somewhere else. That's not the kind of leadership our community and our students and our teachers deserve. They spent about 18 months of just a year and a half in her words like fully walking out the multiplier's work. She shared with me how their school climate has changed.

Liz: 39:29

I pulled together a few of these. Supportive relationships up six points. School climate up 13 points on their school climate survey. School leadership up 25 points. You know, on the 10-point scale, the school district achieved top growths for math and English language learners. They became listed in the top workplaces in 2013 and received the National School District of Character Award in 2013. 2013, she was named Superintendent of the Year, you know, in Greater St Louis, and all at a very short period of time and again, it wasn't magic. It was just this calm but very clear persistence of this is the kind of leadership our students deserve, our teachers deserve, and this is the way we're going to lead here, and if you don't want to lead that way, I invite you to lead somewhere else. But this is how we roll here and she stayed on it with good educational follow-up.

Drew: 40:49

Yeah, Liz, what a great story and the power of that is you're showing the work and how you started with the medical and how fascinating that is for you to watch your work being incorporated into medicine and the impact that it has. And then we move into education and seeing the impact that that has. You must sit back and go wow, that's exciting to watch unpack and unfold and do you see yourself pinching yourself and you go. That is part of what I've done from a distance.

Liz: 41:25

It's absolutely thrilling to watch and you know. To come back maybe where we started our conversation, drew, is you know, I don't think I had that vision. When I started I had a I had a bee in my bonnet, as we say, like I had a bug about. Okay, this diminishing leadership is bothering me. I've done the research, I've learned some things and I need to like write it up and get it out there. I just I didn't realize the impact that would have and how the idea would in some ways change the way we think about what normal leadership and what good leadership looks like today. But it was. It took a multiplier like a Carrie Patterson who say, hey, you know what, this is a big idea and you go, do your best work on this and don't you get lazy.

Drew: 42:21

Absolutely, liz. Your point undefined expectations is crucial. The story you mentioned about the superintendent is a perfect example. They frame the situation by recognizing that sometimes there isn't an alignment of values. They communicated that, while someone could still be a leader, it might not be the current context if their values don't align. And then the superintendent moved this individual to another area, ensuring that they had the right people around them to support that vision.

Liz: 42:55

And you know what really struck me about that. I am, as background, the daughter of an educator and an educational leader, so my mom was a principal of a school district. I know a little bit about just all of the constraints school leaders and superintendents operate and, like all the pressures from the community. And you know, as I'm talking to Amy, I'm like, but wasn't it hard to make personnel changes, Weren't your hands tied? Like you can't just go around moving people because you want to Like there's laws and all this. And when it became clear is that the community was so behind her because they're seeing how this affects their children and their schools and their communities and it's like they were bought into what she was doing for the school. And so you're like, okay, if you've got to, like you know, break some eggs to make an omelet, we're with you.

Drew: 43:56

Yeah, it goes back to the purpose here. The purpose is to multiply the potential of our students, staff and leaders and by focusing on intelligence, we aim to maximize the capability of everyone's involvement and this approach has had a significant flow and effect, enhancing the entire educational ecosystem in your example. We're in the early phases of this work, but it is incredibly exciting for us as an association to witness and support this growth. Now I wanted to segue more into the next topic of coaching. It's another crucial area within the framework of multipliers. Currently, we offer a one-day delivery of multipliers but, as you mentioned with the example of the superintendent, that was an 18-month process to truly demonstrate the impact For our listeners who want to dive deeper into multipliers. Liz, where do you see coaching fitting in? Would you recommend incorporating coaching after completing the multipliers course? How would you guide individuals who have already gone through the multipliers training in terms of continuing their development through? Would you incorporate coaching?

Liz: 45:09

you know absolutely, and it's almost like you can't really implement multiplier leadership without a good coaching toolkit and I wouldn't advise someone try to do that without having coaching skills. And we go back to that bayless school district in um, missouri in the united states. I think it was one of the things, if I'm remembering right, that these personnel decisions pivoted on that. Some leaders were just not willing to play that coach role, to build that coaching set. They wanted to call the shots, they wanted to be sort of in charge, and it was probably that might've been the fundamental shift they were not able to make. And it is very typical.

Liz: 45:56

We see organizations I can think of several school districts. I think one in particular, beaverton Schools up in Oregon, which Beaverton probably maybe not known to anyone in New South Wales other than it's the headquarters of Nike. And Nike has been a big adopter of the multiplier's ideas, as have the schools in that area. But you know I remember it was a big part of their effort was coaching skills and we've seen that in other school districts, in other organizations is not long after leaders are exposed to the multiplier ideas and at the core of that is this ability to shift out of the mode of providing answers as a leader and and asking questions that get other people thinking, and to do that well, you end up building a coaching habit, and so there's a lot of great coaching programs.

Liz: 46:57

The Coaching Habit happens to be one of those as well. Fellow Australian, michael Bungay-Stanier. His work on Coaching Habit is one that I know of as well, as Franklin Covey had a toolkits for this. But if there's a skill to go deep on, it's how to ask good questions and help people figure things out on their own.

Drew: 47:26

Absolutely, liz, and your work clearly highlights this for our listeners. It's important to understand that multiplies is not just a one-day course. Our goal is to interrogate this into a long-term systemic change focusing on altering patterns of behavior and thinking. Information and the examples you've shared reaffirm that coaching is essential to ensure this change occurs over time. So what I'm hearing is without coaching, there's a risk of the one day course being just a good feel-good session. While some will succeed immediately, others will need to continuously support to have a long-term impact. A coaching model is crucial to underpin this work, helping to reinforce and embed the changes needed to truly become effective multipliers.

Liz: 48:21

Yeah, and I think, drew, it's not just the soft side of coaching which is like let me serve as a coach and help talk them through it. It's the full range of coaching which is like, oh, let me kind of serve as a coach and help kind of talk them through it. It's the full range of coach, which is the coach who has a really high aspiration, like here's what it takes to win and here's what winning looks like, and you know, here's what human performance looks like. And here are the principles, like you don't get the results without putting in the effort. And the reps, like it's that part of coaching as well, not just the let me be a neutral, non-evaluating like facilitator of their thought process yeah, there needs to be a sense of accountability.

Drew: 49:07

Without it, as you mentioned Liz, everything can become superficial, what we might call fluffy here in Australia. There's no substance or follow through, then the impact is minimal.

Liz: 49:20

That's like a hiking buddy. That's not a coach.

Drew: 49:24

Absolutely, liz, and having a coach keeps you accountable and ensures a real follow through. It must have been challenging for that superintendent to make those tough calls, but after several discussions they made the necessary decision and you're spot on about the human resource perspective. Navigating the legal aspects of these decisions is complex, but the impact, when aligned with a multipliers framework, is substantial. So let's move forward. We've had a great discussion today covering various aspects of your work, including the multipliers moments and those of your kids. For those listeners, do you have any final thoughts or advice for our listeners who are thinking about implementing multipliers in their schools? Any guidance for those looking to make lasting impact?

Liz: 50:21

Well, I think there are two reasons to be a multiplier leader, and both kind of can get you there, but in one way to look at it is you want to lead this way because you get more from people, and I think that was what was so shocking to me in the research is how diminishing leaders were getting less than half of people's available intelligence, whereas multipliers were getting virtually all of of it. It's a 2x effect broadly, but when we go into our school districts it starts to look more like a 3x difference. And and there is a compelling reason to lead this way, which is, you know, my short understanding like, or my summary of my understanding of the challenges in education is like education has all the challenges that businesses and for profit having they just have them. I think, in in like sharper ways. In sharper ways, I think the problems are a little bit more acute and harder. So, like, educational leaders need to be able to do more by getting more from people. That's one reason.

Liz: 51:29

But I'm always reminded and when I think of myself as a leader and like why I want to lead this way, some of it comes to gee. I want to get the most from people because we got hard problems to solve and I need this. But I remind myself that the real reason to lead this way is about legacy, and not just how much you get from people, but what kind of work experience do you offer and what's the impact on the people you lead? And how do you really want to be remembered as a leader? And when I boil it down to you, know what I've learned from 35 years of leading and my own research is, you know, I want to be remembered as a leader. People grow around and maybe that's it, and it's about getting more, but it's also about giving to people an experience that feels less exhausting and more exhilarating. Feels less exhausting and more exhilarating.

Drew: 52:30

Well, Liz, your work is truly making a significant impact in the educational landscape, both globally and here in Australia, New South Wales. I want to thank you for your research and dedication to empowering everyone to become a multiplier leader. It's been fantastic having you with us here today and thank you again, once again, for your time and insights.

Liz: 52:54

Well, it's my pleasure and I want to thank everyone who's read the book or gone through the course or just entertained the ideas and had a go with them. I hope it really makes a difference for people friends for people To our listeners.

Drew: 53:17

if you've been inspired to become a multiplier from our conversation today, we invite you to enroll in our multiplies course. Principals, executive networks interested in learning more can reach out to us directly. We heard about the remarkable impact that multiplies is having with even superintendents across the globe, as well as educational leaders globally, and we're excited to bring that to New South Wales. Further details visit our website at newsouthwalesppaorgau. Forward slash multiplies.