What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
What we lose in the Shadows (A father and daughter True Crime Podcast)
The Deadly Elixir: Unraveling the Shocking Saga of Peggy Carr
Are you ready to get lost in the shadows of a real-life mystery? This episode of "What We Lose in the Shadows" takes you on a compelling journey into the life of Peggy Carr, a woman born to deaf parents in a small, rural Florida town, and a mystery that would leave a community on edge.
Stay with us as we unravel the strange occurrences in Peggy's life that lead to her untimely and tragic death by poisoning. Finally, we reveal how the determination of law enforcement, paired with a carefully crafted Mensa profile led to the capture of the cunning perpetrator. Tune in and prepare to be captivated!
Forensic Files: Peggy Carr timeline 2/27/2022
Poison Mind: The Mensa Murderer Publishers Weekly
Los Angeles Times 2/17/1991
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
Background music by Michael Shuller Music
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the Shadows.
Speaker 2:A father, daughter true crime podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Jameson Keyes.
Speaker 2:I'm Caroline, happy Tuesday.
Speaker 1:Happy Tuesday, Caroline. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:Very good, because my favorite time of the year is autumn and we are in the midst of it Nice, crisp mornings. I haven't turned my heater on yet, it's all great.
Speaker 2:I'm shocked at the fact you haven't turned your heater on yet. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:No, I get up. It's nice and crisp, it's nice sleeping weather, you know, and all that kind of thing. I just love fall.
Speaker 2:I don't mind fall. If I can stay inside for the entirety of the season, I think I would really like it. It's like a window open here and there to get some fresh air would be nice, but the fact that I have to go into work almost every day disturbing. I mean, I wake up and it's cold. I have to get out of bed Wow, horrible. And then I literally get into my car. It's cold, I have my jacket. I have to take off my jacket to drive, because it's too much to drive with the jacket. Like it's just, it's too much, there's too much going on. Like it's cozy if you can stay in. Like the nights where you stay in are cozy and nice, watching a movie, when it's, like you know, cold outside, but like you're cozy inside and you have a candle. But I can't stand fall, and even more so winter. I hate winter. I hate it, but I'm happy you like it.
Speaker 1:I'd rather be too cold than too hot. That's just my personal preference.
Speaker 2:This is true, I know, because whenever we're together and at your place, literally it's always cold and I have to bring out a blanket that I crocheted you because you don't have that ready blankets, because you're not cold.
Speaker 1:It's so thick. I mean it has to be desperately cold for me to really.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about that when I was making it, hey it's great.
Speaker 1:It's great for, you know, certain like times during the winter, but it has the consistency of Kevlar. I honestly believe it could probably stop a bullet if need be, but it's a wonderful blanket.
Speaker 2:It's, literally, it's big too Absolutely. I'm trying to finish the other one I started actually right now. I started it a while ago and I was making it for my girlfriend, but I just have a lot of time. I haven't touched it in like a month or two or four. I need to. I need to do it because it's been like a year and I still haven't finished it, but soon. Today's trigger warnings are poisoning and murder.
Speaker 1:So today, caroline, this is um, this is a little older crown. This happened in 1988.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's not. That's younger than you 1988.
Speaker 1:That's the year 1988.
Speaker 2:I said it was older, but it's a dunger than you, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, age not withstanding. Uh, this particular crime happened in 1988. It's the story of Peggy Carr, and Peggy Carr was born in a small rural town in Florida and Peggy was a coda. Both of her parents were actually deaf. Oh my goodness, yeah, and and as we know today, and especially back in the eighties, it's a very hard thing because, um, they really weren't. They didn't really make much money or didn't have much money, because, you know, it's difficult sometimes for deaf people to find employment, especially so back in the eighties.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is actually, and it it's. The reason that it's so difficult for deaf and hard of hearing people to find employment is because people oppress them, because they don't think that they can do the jobs that they actually can do, and it's actually just ridiculous. But I say that because I'm actually an ASL interpreter and so I have some background in that. But, um, yeah, that's sad to hear that they were struggling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and because it was so rural and because, you know, they really didn't have a whole lot of money, peggy had to start working when she was very young and because of that she had to take whatever jobs she could find. Um, you know, things like working night shifts in different places and also like working, uh, like night shifts in a truck stop where she was a waitress. I'm guessing she was probably 17 or 18 when she started working there, but she wasn't very big, she was kind of, you know, petite and so on. So she put on this persona because truck stops, you know, can be kind of a tough place, right?
Speaker 2:Cosmen.
Speaker 1:But uh, so so, yeah, so she put on this persona as this tough you're really a person with an attitude and love that, yeah, and she wanted to push that to the outside world. Uh, so no one would mess with her and she developed that kind of reputation. But the one thing is it made it also hard for suitors. Sometimes men that wanted to maybe go out with her were probably intimidated by the fact that she seemed so tough.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, if they realized she had to be? I mean she's around a bunch of truck drivers no offense to truck drivers, but you know, sometimes I'm just leaving it at that.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I feel like they can get a little mean Maybe, okay, anyways, uh, but fortunately she did find a gentleman that she fell in love with. They got married and they had three children. It didn't last very long, Uh, and eventually they got divorced, damn. So later on, you know, her children noticed that Peggy was um, yeah, she was just sort of sad. She didn't have that rough persona with her children. Obviously she was a loving mother, that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she was at home and away from work. That she just sort of sad, and they hoped that at some point in time she would meet someone, she would get married again and be happy. And that did happen. Uh, this gentleman, uh, I think his name is Pry Lee, but everyone called him Pye, his last name was Carr, and uh, they met at the diner. Pye also was divorced and he had two kids and they lived in uh, altaurus, florida.
Speaker 1:Pye worked for a mining company. Within a few months, uh, they kind of bonded right. You know he was a good guy and they fell madly in love and within a short period of time, a few months, they actually got married and so they kind of became this blended family, because Peggy had three children, pye had two children and they lived in this kind of a smallish house, uh, in this rural Florida community. So things went along pretty well for a while. But suddenly things started to kind of get out of joint right and uh, peggy and Pye started to not get along well. What had happened was Pye was always working, he was constantly working at this mining company. So Peggy was curious, so one night she and her daughter kind of tried to find him. So they drove her to the mining company and they noticed that the only two cars at the building, at the structure, were Pye's car and a former girlfriend's car.
Speaker 2:Suspicious, to say the least.
Speaker 1:Well, and those suspicions were actually, you know, they were actually examined and then it was found out that Pye was indeed having an affair with this woman.
Speaker 2:While she washed his children, sorry watched not washed, maybe washed, I don't know. Maybe both, maybe both. But while she's watching his kids and her own kids, right, he's off cheating Right With his ex.
Speaker 1:So it became a rocky relationship and everyone was assuming that, you know, this wasn't going to last very long. So in late October of 1988, um, he got up one day and, without really announcing it, he went on a hunting trip and he just said I'm going hunting, you know, I'll be back later. And she really didn't care at that point. She was just like fine, I'll, you know, have fun, I'll see what he would be like.
Speaker 2:Okay, watching his children.
Speaker 1:Right, the kids weren't children, children, they were like teenagers, even worse.
Speaker 2:It's a lot to keep track of.
Speaker 1:So this day, the same day that he started and went hunting, Peggy and her daughter Sissy both worked at this truck stop. So she showed up for work that day. As soon as she got there, shortly after she started getting organized, started to take some orders and so on, she noticed that her heart was racing. Her heart was pounding right, and she hadn't done any real physical exertion or anything like that that would necessitate her heart pounding like that. Yeah, that's scary. So she took a couple of minutes and she went into the employee restroom and she kind of just sat down there for a minute thinking I'll do some deep breathing and everything will be fine. But problem was it wasn't. Her heart kept pounding and it kept pounding. And then she started to notice she was getting numb in her hands and in her feet. So she thought to herself my God, I'm having a heart attack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would think the same.
Speaker 1:So you or I might think I'm gonna go to the doctor, call me an ambulance, I'm having a heart attack, right. But Peggy was a tough person, so she just said she went to her daughter and said, listen, I'm not feeling well, I'm afraid I might be having a heart attack. And the girl just kind of looked at her and she said I'm gonna go home and I'm just gonna kind of relax and rest and maybe it's some sort of a virus.
Speaker 2:I wonder if she didn't have health insurance though.
Speaker 1:That's a good question. Maybe not, Not probably.
Speaker 2:That could be a possibility, yeah because I feel like a lot of people, if they're underinsured or not insured, like that's how many thousands of dollars?
Speaker 1:Right, even back in 1980, that would have been a hefty bill for sure, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So she went home, her daughter said. She said, don't worry, if I feel any worse, I'll go to the hospital. At that point and the daughter said well, please get better and rest and relax, and I'll check on you as soon as I get home. Now, when her son his name is Duane got home, he came into the house after school and there was Peggy laying in bed, which was really weird because she was never one to take a nap, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he sent in and he kind of looked at his mom and she wasn't sleeping. She was kind of curled up in a fetal position and she was gritting her teeth, right, because she was in so much pain, wow. And he said he just said, my God, mom, what's going on? And she explained that she was having a problem. She wasn't quite sure what it was. So she said really, I think I just have some sort of a virus or a flu or something like that. I'm just gonna sleep it off, but if it gets worse then I'll let you know.
Speaker 1:So as he started to leave the room, she said you know what? To be honest with you, I'm really concerned. I feel terrible. It feels like someone's shooting fire into my veins. And he said well, my God, mom, you can't sleep that off. So he's like, we gotta find Pie, we gotta get you to the hospital. And so just about that time Pie walks in the door from his hunting trip and he said he explained what was going on. He took Pie into the bedroom and he said well, she's fine, she's as tough as nails. I mean she's probably good If she wants to sleep it off. She'd probably just do that, sleep it off. And he said not a big deal Suspicious.
Speaker 1:So he went in, he saw her, and when he saw her, he saw she was incredibly pale and she was sweating profusely. So he said no, and so he picked her up and carried her, because she, pie, picks her up and carries her because she couldn't walk at that point. She was just so constricted and her muscles were so tightened together.
Speaker 2:Jesus. I thought he would have been the one poisoning her.
Speaker 1:So he took her to the hospital and in typical fashion, the doctors weren't quite sure and they went over what your symptoms and all that kind of thing and they ran the standard battery of tests and when the tests came back they came back as either inconclusive and or negative. Damn, they weren't quite sure what was happening, right, and by that point she was actually physically screaming because she was in so much pain, so it's gotten so much worse.
Speaker 2:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:So much worse, exactly. So they said, well, all we can do is we can put her in the hospital, we can give her some morphine or something like that, manage her symptoms and just kind of watch her. And so that's what they did for three days. And so while they ran another battery test and different poison tests and things like that, they all came back negative. So after several days of this she felt a little bit better and Lisa could get up and move around. So they sent her back home. But within the next 24 hours once again she was just in excruciating pain right, and at that point she even was in such bad pain she really couldn't talk. So they called an ambulance this time, ran her back to the hospital and once again they ran the same battery of tests and they all came back negative or inconclusive.
Speaker 2:That's so frustrating.
Speaker 1:So once again they said, well, we'll put her in here, we'll put her under observation and we'll give her something for the pain and we'll see how it goes. But just as that happened, both her son, dwayne, and her and Pye's son both came into the hospital exhibiting the same symptoms.
Speaker 2:Oh shit.
Speaker 1:They were doing what they could right and they were trying to think well, you know what is this? They ran different tests and they ran various tests. They brought in specialists to people to look to trying to figure out what the hell's going on. One doctor who was, I believe he was a neurologist, and he thought something triggered because when he was taking care of her and he sat her up to listen to her lungs and so on, he noticed that large clumps of hair were coming out of the back of her head. Oh shit. So he asked, he asked Pi, and he asked everyone has she been exposed to radiation or anything like that? And they're like no, she works in a, you know, she works in a diner.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So and she doesn't have any kind of an access to you know that sort of material. But he noticed that and something triggered from when he was in residency. So he consulted a couple you know medical journals and he called for a very specialized test that they don't have in hospitals, right, so they bring the test in, they administer the test, and his suspicions were right.
Speaker 2:These doctors and medical professionals are so good, you know, they just sometimes those gut feelings really come through.
Speaker 1:Absolutely what it was. She had been exposed somehow to a mineral called and heavy metal actually called thallium.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, and thallium is used in very few things nowadays because it is such a horrible, horrible thing. It used to be used in rat poisons and things like that. Once it enters the system, it starts shutting down various features, you know, and different things in your body. And that's what it did when it killed rats. It kind of killed them from inside out. Oh, that's horrible, right? So? So that's what it was, but they were trying to think where in the world would she have come into contact with thallium?
Speaker 2:And had it inside of her system.
Speaker 1:It had it in her system.
Speaker 2:She must have literally been poisoned. She had to open Like why else would this be inside of her body?
Speaker 1:Right. But the thing is, how did these two boys also contract the same thing? How did they come into contact? So the authorities came in and they started looking, they started going through everything. You know what was she exposed to? You know, was it something in the air? They did air tests. Was it something in the water nearby? Was it something in their well water that got into them? They also looked at. There was like a grove, you know, like a agricultural site next to it, I think. They grew oranges and they tested there. They said, my God, we're using some sort of a pesticide that had thallium in it on the oranges and all of it was negative.
Speaker 1:And eventually she lapsed into a coma. Oh, my God, she, she and even the two boys. They started to take a turn for the worse as well. And the doctor tells Pi and tells the family she had more than 75 times the lethal dose of this thallium. Peggy would slip into a coma and stay in the coma for four months. Oh, that's horrible, right. And the doctor has explained to Pi and explained to Peggy when she was coherent enough and lucid enough.
Speaker 2:You have too much of this in your system.
Speaker 1:There's no way to purge it out. There is, there is sort of a remedy we can do, but you, you have too much. We can't get it out of your system. You're going to die. Wow, she just remained there and her family had the gut wrenching kind of a decision that basically, you know, they had to pull the plug off. Oh, that is so horrible.
Speaker 2:I don't know I I feel for anyone that has ever been in that situation or finds themselves in that situation. That's horrible, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now Dwayne, who was Peggy's son he was hospitalized for four months and he made a full recovery. Wow, Pi's son trapped her in a coma. Pi's son, Travis, was hospitalized for six months and he made a recovery. But exposure to the stallion has, basically it's altered the way he moves and the way he walks because it did affect his neural pathways.
Speaker 2:That is so sad.
Speaker 1:It is. So the FBI and the police came in and they pulled everything out of the house, every last thing, and they looked at everything. They were eating, everything that was in their house. There was some concern because, you know, pi did work at a mine and they were wondering could he have come into contact with thallium in this way? Mm-hmm, and as they went through they did find something suspect. They found that three empty Coca-Cola bottles contained a trace amount of thallium. So they noticed it in the, in their little pantry there, that there were three more unopened Coca-Cola bottles. So they took those back to the lab and they started doing tests on them and, sure enough, there was thallium. It was laced with just tons and tons of thallium in each one of those bottles. They went immediately to the Coca-Cola company and said did you notice anything like this happening? And Coca-Cola was like absolutely not.
Speaker 2:What the hell? Literally. I don't understand how someone's going to drug or like lace Coca-Cola and then forget to throw away the containers. Stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 1:So, and here's an even weirder thing, right.
Speaker 2:It's been months, right, Like it's literally been months, and they can still like what? Like stupid criminals, so stupid.
Speaker 1:So they went back and these were even the glass bottles with the actual metal caps on top, and they all looked to be intact.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when they did this and here's the other thing about thallium, because it's such a weird chemical, right, it changes the look of the liquid that it's in, it changes the smell of the liquid it's in. So the thought was how in the hell did like if you picked up a bottle of Coca-Cola and it's not just a normal Coca-Cola, a color which is really dark it's kind of greenish and kind of kind of it looks like tea, but like a greenish tea, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's no way you wouldn't have noticed that, and if you opened it up and it smelled weird, you probably wouldn't have drank it, right?
Speaker 2:Definitely not all three of them, Like there's no way that they're all just like overlooking that.
Speaker 1:Right and they tested the entire family because they were really concerned about pi at this point right, yeah, and the other children and the other children, right? So everyone in the family except for one of pi's daughters had been exposed to it. Wow. So had it been pi, he would not have exposed himself to it. But apparently he didn't drink enough of it to actually affect him, and the two boys drank more of it, but not nearly as much as Peggy had.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't him.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, so who was it?
Speaker 1:So that's just it. That's just it. They wondered who in the heck had done this. Now, one thing To the whole family, to the whole family At random, that might mean just anyone in the family. I feel like it was a sex, so what they found out was a couple months before, like three weeks before this all happened, they had received a letter. Pye had received a letter in the mail, random typed, not mailed, but actually just in his mailbox, right.
Speaker 2:Do you remember when that happened to me?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:What you were, the one you and mom found it.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yes, yes, do you remember? And it was a stalker Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, random type letters in your mailbox, watch out.
Speaker 1:Right, and so they looked at this and he remembered oh my God, yeah, I did get this letter and basically it said you and your so-called family have exactly one month to leave Florida or you're all going to die.
Speaker 2:The whole state. What the fuck?
Speaker 1:I don't know they couldn't tell. There's no handwriting, there's nothing. There's no fingerprints on the envelope. There were no fingerprints on the letter. You know they couldn't make out it was definitely a typewriter, right Interesting. So they're like who in the heck could have written this letter? And what did that mean? And was this the person that actually had done this?
Speaker 2:Definitely. Well, how do you just forget about that letter? It's very specific and very threatening.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, but he seemed like a pretty laid back dude. He was like whatever some crackpot you know, but that was so specific. You know. It's just crazy that you forget about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Now, in the meantime they started to have some, you know, suspects in one of the things that they noticed. The FBI kind of created a profile and they said whoever did this right was very, very intelligent and have to have been a chemist, because they would have to know how to counterbalance the thallium in terms of the look of it and how it would react inside of a liquid and how it wouldn't change the color. We're dealing with a very, very, very smart person.
Speaker 2:We're just well studied.
Speaker 1:There's an organization called Mensa, and Mensa is basically an organization for the upper 2% of the most intelligent people in the world.
Speaker 2:So obviously me and you.
Speaker 1:Maybe you.
Speaker 2:Not the joke.
Speaker 1:Not so much me, but yeah. So Mensa is a very, very prestigious organization. Even if you're a genius and if you aren't smart enough, you know if your IQ isn't high enough, if you can't demonstrate that fact, then you're not in Mensa. So there was a local chapter of Mensa in town, a fraternity for adults.
Speaker 2:What do they call that? A fraternity, a secret society?
Speaker 1:Kind of like a society, but not a secret society, no kind of a, you know, kind of a cultish kind of a deal, but just very, very smart people that wanna get together. And you know, that's what we call it, discuss smart things and discuss things that are far beyond my reach in terms of intelligence.
Speaker 2:Apparently, everyone else is too. Geniuses need not apply unless you're part of the 2%.
Speaker 1:Right, elon Musk don't even bother. Ooh no, I think he's a genius.
Speaker 2:But Well, I don't know about that.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, at this particular Mensa chapter they had a new member, or a new perspective member. Her name was Sherry Gwyn. Now, sherry was from out of town and she said that she was fleeing. She was trying to make friends in this new city and she was fleeing from a husband that was abusive. So she was trying to restart her life and she was trying to meet people at this Mensa chapter. She was invited to Mensa chapters. In this particular Mensa chapter they do things. They get together once a month or once every couple of months and have different things that they do. Now, this chapter, one of the interesting things that they did is once a month they would go to a hotel or they would go to, you know, a restaurant or some sort of a place and they would have what they call a murder mystery.
Speaker 2:This is ridiculous. Okay, I'm sorry, I continue. I say it's ridiculous. But then I go to like a scary book club where we do the exact same thing, but not really. But it's just funny to think of like intelligent people, like we should figure out who murdered who in this game of whatever and try to outsmart each other.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, but that's what they did. They would take a weekend and they would go to someplace and they would have two of the members would have this elaborate kind of a murder that happened and they would assign different characters within this story and they were expected to dress up and act out the character right Until they figured out who the murderer was.
Speaker 2:This reminds me of cosplay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of like cosplay, exactly. So the but with geniuses, but with geniuses, right.
Speaker 2:Not that cosplay people are not geniuses, but with an extra level of genius apparently You're just digging a hole here.
Speaker 1:So the chapter president of this particular organization was a man named George Trapal and he and his wife, who was Dr Diane Carr no relation to the cars across the street lived literally across the street from the folks. Now, the interesting thing was she was an orthopedic surgeon, and a very well-established orthopedic surgeon. He was ready A chemist, oh God. So the other interesting thing that the FBI-.
Speaker 2:Are they both part of Mensa?
Speaker 1:They were both part of Mensa.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, wait. So they both, like, were geniuses and found each other. That's crazy. It's just interesting to me that, like, two geniuses, like recognized genius in another person, were like yep, you're the one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's just very interesting. Anyways, continue. So he obviously did it right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so this new lady basically tried to buddy up with them, cause she's trying to meet people and she wants to learn as much as she can. So she goes to this murder mystery weekend and she's talking with them and she talks with everyone, but she's very, very interested and hangs out the most with George and his wife Diane. The other interesting thing the FBI found out was the bottles themselves. Right, so you have the chemical agent inside the bottles, but the caps that were attached to them, they had to be opened with a, you know, with a bottle opener. They had very microscopic scratches of someone who had expertly and very carefully pried off the caps so that they can put the chemical and the liquid in these bottles.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And then put them back and no one noticed.
Speaker 1:Right. So she pout up with these folks and she hung out with them quite a bit and really she started to, you know, get there, you know, become a constant, you know, meet with them, have lunch with them, come over to their house every once in a while and really started to befriend them. Interesting thing was this lady's name wasn't actually Sherry Gwynne, it was actually special agent Susan Gorick. Oh shit, the police and the FBI found that they could not anyway get a possibility of getting inside George's house because they realized he is the prime suspect. He's bright, he's a chemist, all that sort of thing. But there's no reason, there was no probable cause for them to go do it.
Speaker 2:There was nothing linking him or them to any part of it, Just the fact that he's a chemist. Yeah, that's not enough, yeah.
Speaker 1:So she befriends them, right how?
Speaker 2:did she pass their screening or test or?
Speaker 1:whatever. Well, I guess they created this profile that she was. It's not them, it's a national organization that you test and you have to get into that, because the local chapter came to say, okay, you're a genius, you're a genius, you have to go this big, elaborate process through Mensa International to become a member of Mensa and then you just plug into a group, whichever.
Speaker 2:Oh, so you think Mensa was in on it.
Speaker 1:Mensa was in on it the police ran on it.
Speaker 1:So they created this profile for her so she could go in. So she's hanging out with them, she gets very tight with them and a few months later they decide that they're going to move to a different part of Florida but they're gonna rent out their house. So Sherry is talking to them and said oh you know, I'd really, I'd love if I could just rent your house. I love your house, I love where it's located. Could you just let me rent your house? I really would feel very, very comfortable here. She spent so much time getting close to them that they just said absolutely. So they moved out, but they left a lot of things in the garage. Oh sure, one of the things that they left in the garage and how they finally catch this guy is they had a certain amount of powdered thallium that was in the garage.
Speaker 2:Why would you keep that?
Speaker 1:They also had. This guy had a bottle cap placing machine.
Speaker 2:Why would you?
Speaker 1:keep that Literally, Because he was so arrogant and so smart he thought no one will ever figure this out.
Speaker 2:Okay. So why did he kill them, or why did he try to kill them or did kill her, but not the children?
Speaker 1:He's the one that sent the note. They didn't find the typewriter. He apparently took the typewriter or whatever he created the note with.
Speaker 2:The typewriter was the least, the most inconspicuous thing about that. Right, absolutely the trio of random evidence. But the typewriter literally could have just been for typing, but he kept the bottle sealer and chemical.
Speaker 1:So the thing about typewriters is they all are unique. They are unique in terms of they. They sometimes because of the way you use them and sometimes the way they would wear. They could have a little imperfection in the typeface that could actually be matched. So the typewriter was pretty crucial, interesting, so he took that with him or got rid of it or something. But yeah, he left the bottle cap machine and has traced him out of thallium in his garage.
Speaker 2:Nice, smart. So, Genius, Genius absolutely genius.
Speaker 1:So they arrested him, and they also found some other things in there. For example, they found an Agatha Christie novel called the Pale Horse, which describes using thallium to poison people in a household. And finally, like I said, they found the bottle capping machine that they used to replace the bottle caps and the thallium which was the final nail in this guy's coffin. Now he was tried right.
Speaker 2:Okay, but why did you do it?
Speaker 1:He did it because he was a quiet person. I mean he was a very, you know, thought he was a very brilliant person and the people across the street, the cars, they were kind of fun loving. They were loud, you know, and they weren't very educated. So you know, anytime that he had a conversation with them he felt superior and he wanted them out because they were loud and had too many children and he just bothered him. So he sent the note hoping that they would run away.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:And when he didn't, when they didn't he?
Speaker 2:carried out. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:He said I'm gonna kill you. And he did.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's horrible, just because they were loud. Right Ah how loud could they have been?
Speaker 1:How loud, not loud. Yeah, pretty loud, apparently, if you're thinking about contemplating poisoning them. But yeah, so they, they, they.
Speaker 2:Did his wife know about it?
Speaker 1:That's interesting, because there was no direct evidence that she had anything to do with it. She was never charged with the crime. As soon as he was arrested, she divorced him and moved away to a different part, so she's never been connected to the case in any way.
Speaker 2:What did she think the bottle sealer was for?
Speaker 1:Well, so apparently he also made his own beer.
Speaker 2:Okay, so then it definitely could have been Right. Just for that, yeah, right oh shit.
Speaker 1:So some of the evidence, you know, some of the evidence is kind of circumstantial, like, but I mean, in looking at it in totality, the thallium has been a chemist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the thallium for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's not like thallium is everywhere. No Right, it's. It's a heavy metal, it's it's something that's Never heard of it and you never want to be anywhere near the stuff too, so so yeah, he is actually. He was convicted and he was sentenced to death.
Speaker 2:Wow, oh Florida.
Speaker 1:In Florida, and he's been on death row ever since then.
Speaker 2:Oh, so he has not been put to death yet.
Speaker 1:He has not been put to death and he's been trying lately to reexamine the case and to try to get out of conviction, yeah, he's appealing. I think he's down to his last appeal, because I think he's been in prison since 1991. Okay, so this is this would be his final appeal, and if they choose not to, you know, consider that appeal, then he will be put to death.
Speaker 2:It's pretty obvious that it was him, so I think so too, especially.
Speaker 1:But you know, here's the weird part. It's so perfect, it's almost too perfect. You know what I mean? There's so many things.
Speaker 2:Because they had to do a lot of work. Like it wasn't perfect as in it was easy, Like it was. You know what I mean. Like they had to do a lot of work, send someone in undercover to go into his house at, rent his house to go figure it out. You know what I mean. Like it's not, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But then that brings up the whole question is is that constitutional to put an agent in the house?
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 1:I think so too. I'm perfectly fine with it.
Speaker 2:Renting. She asked to rent his house and he said yes and he left it there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it wouldn't hold up in court if she went in and just found it. Although if she was there and wasn't, and he wasn't aware she was a special agent and she found it, he still gave her permission to be there.
Speaker 1:Well, she's renting it.
Speaker 2:Give her? No, I'm not, but I'm saying if she wasn't renting it, would that still hold up? I don't know If you're in the legal field let us know if you think so but I'm interested in that.
Speaker 1:So Trappow was found guilty on each of the counts and the indictment and, upon advisory sentencing, the jury by a nine three majority voted to put him to death. Trappow was sentenced as the following first degree murder of Peggy Carr. Attempted first degree murder of Arlie Dwayne Dumberley, which was Dwayne, her son. Attempted first degree murder of Pie Travis Carr. First degree attempted murder of his son, travis. First degree attempted murder of Casey Bell. All those, the death penalty is what you get for the murder. All those other cases are 30 years Each and then 30 years each 30 years each.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And each one he's even convicted of poisoning of food, water, poisoning of tampering with a consumer product. All of those have 30 year sentences. Good, so if you add all that up, it's like 300 years.
Speaker 2:They made sure it doesn't. Well, you know, and it's funny because I think a lot of people they see it as like over the top to like sentence someone for five, 30 year sentences. But the reason they do that is because they know how the justice system works, for better or for worse. But you can get probation, you can get your time cut in half sometimes depending on programs. So if he has what sorry me trying to add it up if you already said it was 300, but if he has 300 years he's definitely never getting out, no matter, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if he's having over 300 years, even if they're all cut in half, he will still never get out, which is why they do that, and I never thought about it until someone explained it. In some situation I was like that makes a lot more sense now.
Speaker 1:So he is currently appealing. If this last appeal is turned down, then he will. They will carry out the sentence at some point. Justice will finally be done, but what an evil dude.
Speaker 2:And actually what a stupid genius. What a dumb genius For literally leaving everything in a house that he's renting to someone else.
Speaker 1:Stupid and arrogant.
Speaker 2:Literally. But I'm glad he was caught, I'm glad the family got justice and I feel very sorry for Peggy's family, because that's just so unfair, especially I mean just so random. Like you just got to be careful of your neighbors, for sure. Because that's scary For sure. Follow the show on whatever streaming site you're listening on.
Speaker 1:And remember. All of the source material will be available in the show notes.
Speaker 2:And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the shadows and let us know if you want to hear a specific case.
Speaker 1:Or if you just want to give us some feedback.
Speaker 2:OK, join us in the shadows next Tuesday. Bye.
