Episode 30 Understanding and Navigating Grief: Conversations with End-of-Life Doula, Linda Campbell

Warning, this episode discusses death, grief, loss and su*c*de.

Do you avoid people who are grieving because you don't know what to say? Or wonder if there is something wrong with you - are you doing grief right? Is there a right way?

In this episode exploring grief, who better to guide us than Linda Campbell, a compassionate professional with a wealth of personal and professional experiences! Linda, an end-of-life doula and hypnotherapist, lends her expertise in this candid conversation, dissecting the intricacies of grief, the hormones at play, and the uniqueness of each individual's journey.  Linda and Fiona share some of their own experiences with grief,  giving us a personal insight into the profound experience that is grief and loss.

Linda helps us understand and normalise our feelings and the changes that happen in a grieving brain and how that affects our day to day lives .

We also take a deep look at the damaging impact of insensitive remarks about grief and the importance of allowing the grieving person to lead the conversation. Prepare to debunk common myths about grief and learn about the power of genuine and empathetic communication in supporting a grieving individual.

In the closing stages of our conversation, we focus on how to be there for someone in grief. We discuss the need to give them space to share their stories in their own time, the importance of practical support, and how love can manifest differently in these circumstances. Linda reflects on how her own grief journey has influenced her role as an end-of-life doula. Don't miss out on this thought provoking exploration of grief, loss, and healing.

Linda's websites:

WalkingWithYou.com.au

MindMastery.com.au

Learn more about booking a nutrition consultation with Fiona: https://informedhealth.com.au/

Learn more about Fiona's speaking and media services: https://fionakane.com.au/

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Credit for the music used in this podcast:

The Beat of Nature

Music by Olexy from Pixabay

Transcript

Fiona Kane: 0:31

Welcome to the Wellness Connection podcast with Fiona Kane. I'm your host, Fiona Kin, and today I'm actually joined by a great friend of mine. We've been friends for many years. Her name is Linda Campbell. Hi Linda, hi Fiona. How are you? I'm well, thanks today. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. So, and actually that's another conversation we could have about why we say we're fine sometimes and I am actually today but in society, how we do that, but that's a whole of a conversation we could have.

Linda Campbell: 1:04

I'm okay, I yeah, I try to be a little bit more honest sometimes, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 1:09

I'm okay or I'm not so okay, but anyway, that's the joy with the two of us is there's about 57,000 conversations we could have, and for us it's just like turning it down to one topic at a time, which I struggle with. But anyway, for those who don't know you please tell us about who you are.

Linda Campbell: 1:28

Well, obviously, by my accent. I wasn't born here, so I come from Scotland, from Edinburgh, came out here in 1980. And I've still got a bit of a Scottish accent, I think, but people don't tell me I've got an Australian accent. So I don't know what my accent is anymore. So you don't fit anywhere anymore. I don't fit anywhere. I. My background professionally is in welfare, so I've spent about 20 years working in welfare, working from prisons to halfway houses to youth refugees and children's homes and family support, all kinds of stuff. But for the past 17 years I think something like that I've been working as a hypnotherapist, so that's my professional. I have two sons and I've been a single mum since, oh, for 20 years, but yeah, and I also have another business called Walking with You, where I'm an end of life doula, so I work with people that are dying and their families to help support them through that transition.

Fiona Kane: 2:57

Okay, and that's exactly why I got you on today, because I if anyone who has been listening or watching this podcast, would be aware that I have talked about grief here and there throughout, because I lost my mum a couple of years ago and and I've been figuring out that whole grief journey, which is more complicated than I ever imagined. And it is. And look, I know that professionally you have experience in this, but also you have personal experience in this as well. So, you know, can you please share a little bit about that?

Linda Campbell: 3:33

Well, I've. Basically I've sat with both my mother, my father, as they took their last breath, but the most painful one of all was my son, and that's will be 2016. So it's been a few years now, but look, there are still days where I really struggle with his death, so that's part of grief. It's not something that you just get over or move through. Going back even further, though, when I lived in Scotland when I was a child, my grandmother and I shared a bedroom, and she actually was nursed through her final illness in that bedroom and died in that room and was laid out in her coffin in that room. So I didn't have to sleep in the room because the coffin was there, but I guess that's meant that I have a more comfortable around death and dying than a lot of other people are.

Fiona Kane: 4:42

Yes, I think in the Western world I know, at least in Australia I can speak for and someone of my age, which I'm 52, it's never been something that has been around like, not around me in that way, never in that way. It was always something a far away. It was at the hospital, it was at the funeral home, but not something in your home.

Linda Campbell: 5:01

That's right. That's right and that's there is a move back towards people dying at home, which is, you know, as an end of life doula. That's something that I would help people with yes, putting in those arrangements. If you ask people, most people would say they want to die at home, but the reality is that the majority of people die in hospital. Yes, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 5:26

Because dying is can be quite a complicated business physically and emotionally, so there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, of course.

Linda Campbell: 5:36

It can take a long time I mean it can be sudden as opposed to my son, or it can be a long drawn out process which families have to deal with, whether that's the persons at home or in hospital. It's something that the families have to cope with.

Fiona Kane: 6:00

I know it can be quite complicated, as in I know that at the end of my mother's life she, the last few days, the specialists, they were actually reviewing their treatments every three or four hours because her needs changed very rapidly, yes, and they would change, and then they'd change again and they'd change again and they were vital at the end of her life to just keep her level of comfort until she passed. And so I know it would have been lovely to have her at home, but I'm glad actually that she wasn't at home and we were with her in the hospital, because it was just so complicated. I would have had to have all the staff with us at home, I suppose, otherwise. But at the hospital kind of dealt with some of those really complicated things. Yes, it was really hard for us to manage and so, yeah, there's not one right way of happening. I suppose it's just what works out for that family or for that person.

Linda Campbell: 6:56

Yeah, and the palliative care units in the hospital are really really good at working with people and giving support to the family as well.

Fiona Kane: 7:08

Yeah, yeah, and it's just, like I've said, so complicated. And what I do know is that you and I have had these conversations. A lot is that there are lots of, there's lots of lots of sayings about grief, lots of things that people believe about grief that I just think are not true or not as simple as maybe they that is made to sound. So I suppose if you were to sort of myth bust some things around grief or clarify some things, what are some things that you've learned?

Linda Campbell: 7:43

Okay, so one of the things is the stages of grief, and that is a popular or was a very popular sort of theory around grief, based on Elizabeth Kubler Ross's work, and it talks about five stages of grief. The thing is that Kubler Ross wasn't working with people that were grieving. She was working with people who were dying, so it was the way that those people came to accept their own mortality and their own death. So that's where the five stages came from. So the grief about their own death.

Fiona Kane: 8:34

Yeah, that's very, very different personal experience of the person dying to the experience of the loved ones.

Linda Campbell: 8:39

It's very different, but people have got kind of stuck on that. Lots of people have got stuck on that. The truth is there's more than five stages and they're not linear. We don't go from anger to denial to you know, we, we, we go round in circles and sometimes you can be feeling guilty, or sometimes you're sad, or sometimes you're angry or whatever. Those are all natural responses to grief and we go, we go through them, we jump about in them. We're not, yeah, it's not linear. I quite often in my hypnotherapy practice because I work with grieving people in that as well I get people that come in that feel like they're doing grief wrong because they're not following the five stages.

Fiona Kane: 9:33

Yes, yeah. Well, on day 47, it should look like this and day 157, it should look like that.

Linda Campbell: 9:39

So that's one thing that are. You know there is no right or wrong way to grief. It's whatever is right for you and we don't sort of move on from grief. We don't move, we. We kind of people try to put a time limit on it. You know it's been, it's been so many months or so many years. You should be over it by now.

Fiona Kane: 10:10

Yes, the whole, the whole idea of over it.

Linda Campbell: 10:13

Yes.

Fiona Kane: 10:14

Over it. Okay, You've lost your son. You should be over it.

Linda Campbell: 10:21

The truth is that you never. You never really get over it, because losing a parent or a sibling or a child or even a close friend, anything changes you in so many ways. There's a couple of ways that I think about grief. One is if you think of grief as a stone in a jar as time goes on, the jar gets bigger but the stone stays the same size, so the grief is still there. It's just that you grow around the grief, if that makes sense. And another one again. It's like that you carry grief in your pocket and you kind of you know if you've got something in your pocket for a long time, you won't say you forget it's there, but you lose awareness of it to a certain extent. But then you put your hand into your pocket to get something else out and you pull out the grief and it hits you just like the first day. Yes.

Linda Campbell: 11:50

And you know, it doesn't matter how long the person's been gone. There are certain days that those triggers will be stronger. So birthdays, anniversaries, all those kind of days are liable to stir up that griefing.

Fiona Kane: 12:12

yet and often it builds up, doesn't it? That's been my experience that when the date's coming up, suddenly you start noticing that you're emotionally, that you're not coping as well, or that you're feeling sad or whatever. But something changes emotionally, and it's not just even on the date. It might be for some people a bit of a build up too, and then a recovery from the date as well.

Linda Campbell: 12:40

That's right, yeah, and sometimes the day itself isn't that bad. Yes, the build up can be worse. Yeah.

Linda Campbell: 12:54

But those special dates, what I'd say to people is is organised to do something. You know, like on my son's birthday I'll go out for dinner with some of his friends, or I have done in the past. I kind of fell apart during lockdown, but, you know, just doing something with people that know him or knew him and the same. With the anniversary of his death I'll plan something and carry it out, and that way I'm more supported on that day as well. Yeah. Yeah, and with my sorry, go.

Fiona Kane: 13:40

No, you go ahead. I was just going to say, with my experience of grief it's. I suppose it's like you were saying, with your hand in your pocket and you feel that rock that's in your pocket, I find that it just it comes in waves, so it's. And a wave can come out of anywhere, at any time. So it may relate to an anniversary or something, it may be a song on the radio, it may be something that somebody says it might be a scent, it might be a season it's winter now or spring or something, and that's. You say whatever it is. But you can have this kind of wave that hits you out of nowhere and you can feel like, oh, I feel like I'm doing better, and then suddenly you're not. And that's not necessary. That doesn't mean you know you've gone backwards or you're doing it wrong or whatever. That's kind of just how it is.

Linda Campbell: 14:34

That's right. Yeah, that's right and it is very. I mean, just back in May I think, there was a song that really set me off grieving for my son and it was a song that was written about somebody who had suicide and, as you know, my son's suicide, so that it was written from the point of view of a survivor that liked the person's sister and how she felt around. That it really triggered me. It was like, yep, and that's okay. It's not pleasant, but it's okay.

Fiona Kane: 15:21

Yeah, it's not pleasant, but it doesn't mean that, you know, it's not some pathology or something that needs to be, you know, treated in that sort of a way. It's just it's natural that these things will happen sometimes.

Linda Campbell: 15:35

And the other thing we have this kind of you know we're talking about myths we have this kind of thing about keeping going and people, you know, going back to work and trying to return to a normal life, which is fine. However, grief actually changes the brain. It actually turns off certain parts of the brain. So for most people, the first six weeks of grief you're still in massive shock, even if it's an expected death or slow process, and then it can take well over 12 months for the brain to start to return to normal. In some cases it can take a couple of years, three years. So that's why they say that you should not make any major decisions within 12 months of a death. But it also means that you need to be kind to yourself. When you're going through that cognitive dysfunction that grief causes, it's easy to kind of beat yourself up over it, but it's a natural process.

Fiona Kane: 17:11

Yes, so yeah, literally, your brain is not functioning in the way it normally would be. It's not, you know, there's something wrong with you. It's just literally. That's just how grief works, as she has a physical effect on the brain.

Linda Campbell: 17:24

That's right. And the other thing is I'd just like to bring up people in pets, for example, because for people that have a dog or a cat or rabbit or any animal that's part of their life, that when that animal dies, the grief that that provokes can be as profound as if it was a family member or a friend because they are members of family, member for them.

Linda Campbell: 18:01

Yeah, and sometimes I think people are very dismissive of people that are grieving a dog or a cat or something, or it was only a dog and it's only a cat.

Fiona Kane: 18:11

I think we somehow feel like we have to grade grief like you're allowed to be have more pain if this grief, but less pain with that grief and that grief. You know you should be over that one in five minutes and like a like a rulebook that says what's acceptable and what's not. As far as feeling grief over whatever situation or whatever loss, yes, yeah.

Linda Campbell: 18:32

So, and also with grief, some people can have PTSD as well, so you can get complicated grief, complex grief, yes, where there's there's other factors that play in, especially with things like if, if the death has been through an accident or through suicide, especially if the person witnessed it, that can cause all kinds of other issues along with the grief that become that are part of the grief.

Fiona Kane: 19:11

Yes, yeah, so yeah, when you've had that trauma, that sort of trauma keeps sort of coming up and that's where it's to like I note. I just had a tiny version of that. Compared to what is someone witnessing those kinds of things or whatever. But just in that there was a few things towards the very end for mum that were unpleasant for her and unpleasant for me and, and you know, at the time I would say quite traumatizing for me. And one thing that and that's very small moments and very small things compared to kind of literally watching, you know, seeing some of the things that people have had to experience.

Fiona Kane: 19:50

But I found for myself that one of for the it's been just over two years for me, but initially I was, I was having trouble sleeping and I was replaying things in my mind and that kind of stuff. And what I've worked really hard to do and it's only been two years, but what I've worked really hard to do is have different memories and have like focus more on like like I will look at more pictures of my mother when she was a bit younger and happier and things like that, so it doesn't kind of trigger those memories of when she was unwell, you know, and so it's that sort of thing too. It's it's, it's focusing on it's, it's trying to get your brain to attach to the, the, the good times or the good memories or the good things, and not be, and not be consumed with the, the things that were traumatising for you and that's for me. It was very small, but that's obviously a big process for some people and probably probably takes a lot of support, a lot of why are you minimising yourself there?

Fiona Kane: 20:52

Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, I just sort of said that we people we grade things and then like first thing I do is get out the chart and grade myself, you know. But it is true that we have those traumas and like we remember them, and then that that does make it more complicated because that's attached to it. So you will kind of have it in different situations or whatever. Not only is your grief coming up, but you also having that that trauma, trauma, event coming up for you as well.

Linda Campbell: 21:22

Yeah, the day after my son died I got a big photo of him that was on the wall in my bedroom and I brought it through to where everybody was and I had it just sitting. I don't know if you remember that you were I do, yeah just sitting there because I wanted to fix that happy time in my mind. Yes, Rather than what had just happened.

Fiona Kane: 21:47

Yeah, I remember you saying that at the time that you were trying to create the new pictures in your mind, you replace ones that you know that were really hard.

Linda Campbell: 21:56

Yes, yes, and I think that that also brings me on to, you know, having a shrine. Some people have put up shrines to their loved one that's passed in their house, and that is fine. You may remember, I had a shrine for a while too, and people would come up to the house and put things on it. Friends of his would come up to the house and put things on it, and that's fine too. I worked with a man once who his son had suicided, and he kept putting up shrines and his wife kept taking them down because it made him sad. And it's like, yes, that's okay, it makes him sad, but it's a way of remembering. And I mean, with shrines you're usually putting on things that are happy. Sorry, I haven't got my phone on silent, that's okay. Let me just put it on silent. I forgot to do that. Usually it's on silent all the time.

Fiona Kane: 23:09

And everyone's different in what works for them, whether they want to have the photographs there or they don't all that kind of thing, and so it can be. That's the tricky thing within a family or friends that everyone deals with it in a different way, and so I suppose it's tricky for families to negotiate what that might look like for them if they're living together and one person wants this and one person wants something different.

Linda Campbell: 23:34

Yes, yes, yes. And the other thing, too, is like things, like people that are they've had the person cremated and they have their ashes and they want to keep them, they don't want to let them go and again, that's fine. Yes, yeah, but it can cause problems within a family if one person wants to do one thing and one person wants to do the other. Yeah, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 24:06

And that's why I suppose it is good if, from where it's possible, in situations where it's possible, if you're able to have a conversation with a person before they pass, in the situations where that's possible, find out what they want.

Fiona Kane: 24:19

Yeah, and that simplifies it, but it is tricky. And even then, even if you have found out what they want, it doesn't always it doesn't mean the family will agree or whatever it is. But yeah, it's tricky stuff. I think that when and when we agree, what I've seen a lot of in families is a lot of division can happen in families because everyone's hurting and they get caught up on different things and hurt each other more. And it's really just that speaking through their grief. And if we could realise that, maybe we could be a bit kinder to each other around it as well or a bit more forgiving about some of the things that happened in that early time when we're grieving like that.

Linda Campbell: 25:00

But you're right, If a person knows that they're going to pass, going to die, it's good if they can make their wishes known beforehand. Yes, Like do they want their ashes scattered? Do they want to be buried? Do you know? What kind of service do they want? Do they want memorial service? All those things? Because that causes less division.

Fiona Kane: 25:28

Yes, Amongst the family later.

Fiona Kane: 25:31

Yes, and it makes it simpler, because my mother wasn't really able to talk a lot about a lot of things in regards to death, but she told me the songs that she wanted, and she told me that she wanted to be cremated and where she wanted to go, and so at least those things, because when you're in grief, like you said, your brain's just not. It's like your brain isn't together. You can't remember and you can't think and you can't piece things together. So trying to plan things at that point can be really hard. But if you've got literally sat down on my computer and typed up what she asked for and I sent a copy to my sister and my brother.

Fiona Kane: 26:06

If anything happened to my computer or something, I wasn't around, this is what needs to happen. But it just made it really really simple. It's like, okay, she wants this and this, bang Okay, and rather than going, oh, should it be this or should it be that? So I think it does, if it is possible. It's not always possible for a lot of reasons, but if it is possible it is great if you can have some of those conversations, because it makes it so much easier for you. It's like one less thing you have to struggle with when you're dealing with the grief.

Linda Campbell: 26:36

Yeah, I would encourage everybody actually to make plans for their own death and what they want. I've actually got photos picked out and the music picked out for my.

Fiona Kane: 26:52

You don't trust your son to choose the good ones, who put all the awful ones?

Linda Campbell: 26:55

I'm choosing the ones I want, I'm not leaving it up to him, and just being able to have those conversations with people is really important, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 27:11

Yeah, and the other thing.

Fiona Kane: 27:13

You were talking about it before.

Fiona Kane: 27:14

But I want to move on to another sort of different sort of topic, but one that relates to this. But just before we do that, I thought it was just good to point out something that you explained to me one time is that at the beginning and early on whether you said it's that first year or whatever it is, but early on because of the different hormones that are going through our system stress hormones, that sort of thing sometimes there can be a certain level of numbness that we have in the beginning and when those hormones start to change and that wears off, it can feel a lot worse and often that's like well, I think in your case it might have been the second year, I think that it wasn't just the second year, but people can be surprised by that that it can. They think, oh, I'm doing really well, and then suddenly the second year or 30, whatever it is, they're feeling worse and that's kind of the biological reason that that happens is literally because they don't have that numbing effect that they had maybe early on.

Linda Campbell: 28:14

That's right, I think, with traumatic death, especially if it's a child. I'm a yes, that happens. I mean somewhat in the early stages of the grief. Somebody else that I knew who had lost a child to suicide said to me the second year is worse than the first, and I was like it can't be any worse than this. And they were right. You know that's as you said. The shock sort of wears off and it just I think that first year I spent almost like tricking myself into believing you'd gone overseas for a while. It was doing a gap year overseas, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 29:06

Yeah, initially you can imagine other things. You can make up little stories in your mind to make it easier. But as time goes on, the reality.

Linda Campbell: 29:16

The reality hits. I wasn't consciously doing that, but yeah, I think. Yeah, you know, there was a time where I'd hear a car coming down the street that had an engine sounding similar to his and I would be oh, here he comes, you know, and I was still doing that six, seven months after he died. It took a little time for that to kind of change and wear off. Yes, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 29:44

And that's what's our brains trying to protect us as well. I think our brain tries to protect us from really hard stuff. So sometimes it does do don't pay those sort of different tricks on us and I'm not sort of telling people oh it gets worse the second year, or. I'm not trying to freak people out, it's just more understanding that. It doesn't mean there's something terribly wrong with you. That's right. It's just part of the grieving process that it can look different for different people and, like you said, it's not linear. So it's not like well, you know, month one it's like this, but month two it's better and month three it doesn't. It's just it doesn't work like that.

Fiona Kane: 30:20

We're human beings and it's messy and it doesn't work that way.

Linda Campbell: 30:23

It doesn't work like that. And look, I mean with both my parents I didn't have that because they were older. I expected them to die before me. So I think it varies a lot depending on what the experience was yeah, the relationship with the person and, yes, yeah, yeah.

Fiona Kane: 30:47

So the other thing that I thought it's really important to bring up is I don't know, I've had conversations with you and some other people in our friendship group who have had some similar experiences and I've heard some of the hideous things that people say, sometimes well meaningly, sometimes just not thinkingly, I don't know, but it's kind of and I know it's tricky because I know that when I arrive at someone's house and I've done this a few times where someone's lost a child and I've arrived at their house, it's like what do you say, what can you say? And I think, because we get a bit confused about that, one of two things happens either we avoid the person or we go there, but sometimes we say all sorts of weird, weird, wonderful things and you give us some tips about that. How do we manage that as that friend or family who wants to go and support that person? How do we tread around that challenging thing of what do you say or what can you say?

Linda Campbell: 31:54

I mean, look, just saying things like I'm really sorry to hear that this has happened, or that's fine if it's said genuinely yes. The things that are upsetting are when somebody says I know how you feel because you don't know. Nobody knows how that person feels.

Linda Campbell: 32:19

It doesn't matter if they've been through a similar situation themselves. If grief is unique to the person that's experiencing it, the relationship that they had with the person that's passed is unique, so nobody else can know how that feels, and it kind of devalues what the person is feeling. If somebody says something like that, I'm actually going to I've got a list here of things and it will get easier Time heals. That's another one.

Fiona Kane: 33:12

Yeah, yeah, and that can lead to that. What we're talking about before, people somehow feeling they're failing because time's not healing. And it's not just time that heals, it's actually experiencing the grief that helps to heal and not saying even necessary heal. But I suppose it's a type of healing, but not a curing, but a healing to some extent or just a shifting of a change in the shape of things or whatever.

Linda Campbell: 33:40

Yeah, and even just commenting that somebody's going to sound bizarre, but I actually had somebody at a network meeting saying oh, you're looking really good today. Isn't it amazing how time heals? And this is like five years after my son died. Yes, and what that does is it makes you feel almost guilty that you're able to do things and look good and do things you know, enjoy things without that person that's died. So that's something else to be really careful of.

Fiona Kane: 34:23

I know it's meant as a compliment, but it's, but also that person's making an assumption about how you do feel. Yes, and as you've recovered to a certain extent and you're physically looking at yourself a bit better, and you're looking better doesn't mean you know what I mean. You can't make assumptions of what that really means.

Fiona Kane: 34:43

What's really going on for the person, but yeah also, like you said, it's that sort of and I think it's a particularly complicated thing with parents is that you never want. You feel terrible. You even thought that you would somehow be okay one day and one day you'll smile and be happy or whatever. It just seems like that's not okay and it's not possible. And then, if it is possible, what does that say about you? You know there's all this guilt that associated with it isn't there?

Linda Campbell: 35:13

That's right. Okay, any phrase that begins with you should you will. Any phrase like that they fear of. Everything happens for a reason. That was said. Yes, everything happens for a reason.

Fiona Kane: 35:32

I shared with you that. I said that to my grandmother once many years ago and she put me right in my place, and I'm glad that she did, because we have all these Like we just have all these random sayings that our society uses, that we just parrot and we don't necessarily mean harm by them, but sometimes you never just really stop and think about what something means. You know, and a different way you could say that we can find meaning in grief and we can find meaning in hard situations. Yes, but everything happens for a reason, is you know? That's yeah, it's a really insulting thing to say, I think.

Linda Campbell: 36:11

It is because, even if that is the person's belief system, like the person that's grieving when somebody dies there is, there is no good reason for it.

Fiona Kane: 36:34

Yes.

Linda Campbell: 36:36

That's implying that there's a good reason for it. I kind of hold in with the, or at least with God now or some phrase along those lines.

Fiona Kane: 36:52

And maybe something like that. The God thing is a bit more. It's just dependent on who the person is, because if it's a friend of yours who is Christian and that makes them feel better and they actually saying that themselves, well then sure I think, if it's that person, if it's comfortable for them, and if it's real for them and if they're kind of saying that, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

Fiona Kane: 37:18

But if you're saying it to someone who maybe doesn't have that belief system or isn't saying that or isn't ready for that or will never be ready for that because it's just not their belief system, whatever it is, then it could be quite jarring for someone.

Linda Campbell: 37:30

Yeah, it can, so that's something I would avoid. I'm just looking at my little list that I've got here. She brought this on herself, or he knew the risks, or you know, my mum was a smoker and she died of lung cancer and I had people saying that to me that you know well. She knew the risks of smoking. She brought this on herself. That doesn't help at all.

Fiona Kane: 37:58

Yeah, yeah, and you know you're not God or whoever it also is, but you're not the person in charge of it all. You don't really know. And even if you do really know, even if it is very clear that person did A and B happened, and it's very clear that A caused B, so who are you to make to bring judgment about? You know?

Linda Campbell: 38:20

You're blaming the deceased for their own death.

Fiona Kane: 38:22

Yeah, and also it's the way I see it is that person's paid the price already. They don't need your judgment on it. So that person paid the ultimate price. So, even if you think there's oh well, whatever, whatever judgment you have around it, keep it to yourself. Firstly, who the hell are you anyway to say that? And secondly, who is that going to help? Who's going to be better off by you saying that? And, like I said, it is judging someone who's not there anymore to speak for themselves. And I just think that we're all human beings and I think that we have to be careful in judging each other, because we're all going to die sometimes.

Fiona Kane: 39:10

We're going to die some way somehow, and I'm not going to be the first one to be. It's like a whole glass houses thing. I'm not going to be throwing stones at people in glass houses. Shouldn't throw stones at them. We're all in glass houses because we're all humans.

Linda Campbell: 39:26

Another one is you're so strong or you need to stay strong for the other children or the other. You know, yes. So the person needs to be able to be vulnerable and allow themselves those emotions around it. So when you're telling a person that they're strong, again, you're denying how they're actually feeling.

Fiona Kane: 40:04

And you're confirming that the best way to deal with grief is just to push it down and pretend it's not there, and, of course, you can only move. The only way to have any kind of recovery from grief is to move through it, not to pretend it's not there or push it down.

Linda Campbell: 40:18

That's right, and you're saying you know you need to stay strong for the other children. Let's say, or whatever no children need to see adults experiencing grief so that they'll learn how to deal with grief.

Fiona Kane: 40:34

Exactly so. If you stay strong in a in inverted commas, they might feel like they need to do the same thing and like they're not allowed to experience their grief. So all you're doing is modeling, not dealing with grief.

Linda Campbell: 40:48

That's right.

Fiona Kane: 40:49

Yeah, if you allow yourself to be vulnerable, you're modeling. This is what grief looks like, and it's normal and it's okay.

Linda Campbell: 40:55

Yes, and it's okay to be sad, it's okay to feel this way and, again, that was something I got from my childhood, with my grandmother dying in the house and stuff. So I think it's important to model that for children because otherwise, just as you said, they're never going to learn how to deal adequately with grief and we're all going to go through grief in some form or other.

Fiona Kane: 41:28

Yeah, it's inevitable yeah.

Linda Campbell: 41:31

So some of the other things. At least you have other children, or at least you have you know. That again is negating the value of the person that's dying to the person that's grieving.

Speaker 3: 41:55

I think anything that starts with the word, at least sorry, I was just saying.

Fiona Kane: 41:59

anything that starts with the words at least, is somehow minimizing something.

Linda Campbell: 42:06

Yeah, that's right, and other ones that I've heard. You know somebody that's lost a partner. At least you can get married again. You're still young, you know. Yes, and again it's that kind of or even with a pet, you can get another dog. Yeah, you're negating the value of that person or that animal.

Fiona Kane: 42:30

And it doesn't matter if you have 10 other children or 10 other dogs.

Linda Campbell: 42:34

No.

Fiona Kane: 42:34

That doesn't change the grief you have for that individual, that's the one that's gone. It doesn't make the grief less or take it away, it's just, yeah, it's just. That's so insulting.

Linda Campbell: 42:49

So I've got a list here. God never gives us more than we can handle. Again, there's that assumption that the person believes in God.

Fiona Kane: 42:59

Yeah.

Linda Campbell: 43:00

But you know what, sometimes he does give us more than we can handle, especially if it's a suicide. You know, siblings of suicides are more likely to suicide Because some kind of survivor's guilt, so it is more than they can handle.

Fiona Kane: 43:17

Yeah, and the person who's taken their life in the first place. That was more than they could handle, you know. So, yeah, sometimes we do get more than we can handle. That's I think. And again, I think this it's well meaning, yes, it is. Most of these things I think are well meaning or well intentioned, but I think we just needed to stop and think about the words and if you don't actually have, if you don't know what to say, maybe just don't say anything and just be there, you know, or just be led by the other person, be led by the person.

Linda Campbell: 43:55

What about the other person I said? You know, saying that you're you're sorry, saying something like I'm really sorry that this has happened, that this person's died, I don't have any words for you. You know that's being honest.

Fiona Kane: 44:13

Yes, yeah, yeah, and that wouldn't. No words are going to take away that pain. No, and that wouldn't offend the person because they're like well, there isn't words, that's why you don't have words. So you know, rather than trying to come up with these, you know wise words. You know as this kind of whole. Let me come up with some wise wise words.

Fiona Kane: 44:36

Try not to be wise, just try and be present, and I think the more that and that's the other thing too I think it's being led by the person because, for example, you don't. The other thing that I think is important, a really important one for you to explain to us too, is, you know, before I was saying, okay, well, religious stuff, well, you talk to the person the way they talk. So if they use religious language, fine, then you want to use that with them, great. But if they don't, then you don't.

Fiona Kane: 45:05

But the other thing, too, is asking people to share things that they don't want to share. So, if you want, you know, there were times that you know when I, when I was with you, where there was things that you wanted to share and you told me a lot of detail about a lot of things, and there was other times that maybe you didn't, but I never asked you to, and so I just let you choose if and when you shared things and when you didn't. But you know, that sort of you've told me about some situations where people ask you to share, and it's really inappropriate.

Linda Campbell: 45:41

Yeah, you're right, it's. You should always let the person that's grieving set the pace of any conversation, and often the person will want to talk about the person that's died. They want to remember them. One of the biggest fears I suppose that people have is that other people are going to forget their loved one, so they often will want to talk about them and share memories. And if that's how they are, then encourage that. Yes, so, and even if you personally knew the person and you've got memories that you can share, you share them. But yeah, that whole. There's things that people have said sort of like talking, talking about them isn't going to bring them back.

Fiona Kane: 46:53

That's another one that Like you thought it was.

Linda Campbell: 46:56

Yeah, but that's because that's making the person that they're talking to feel uncomfortable.

Fiona Kane: 47:03

It's not yeah.

Linda Campbell: 47:05

It's got nothing to do with the person that's doing the talking.

Fiona Kane: 47:07

Yeah, that's why I think we have to examine our emotions around this stuff and understand what's motivating us to say the things we do and don't say. And I think there is that there's that balance between and this is a tricky one the balance between you don't want to act like the person doesn't exist anymore, because it's important for the person grieving that that person does exist in their life and they can still talk about them and whatever. I think the tricky thing for other people is knowing, like, if to bring them up at all, because you don't want to act like the person doesn't exist, but you also don't want to trigger or trauma, trigger someone or traumatize someone. You know what I mean. Yeah, I think that's the tricky thing that sometimes people have too, and it's talking to you. Do they even bring it up and do they talk about? Do they talk about those experiences or do they talk about that person? Or do they kind of just act like just don't say anything because they don't want to upset you?

Linda Campbell: 48:01

I think in general, even if it upsets the person, the grieving person, then hearing somebody else talk about their loved one can be very healing. Yes, you know, I love it when somebody tells me a story about my son or when his brother says, hey, remember when. That's important to me and I think to most people it would be, even if it makes them cry. Yeah. And again it's. We feel uncomfortable about it because we're not comfortable with their pain.

Fiona Kane: 48:52

Yeah, yeah, I've had that happen to me, where I've cried and then the person's like oh God, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm like no, it's okay, yes, it's not, you didn't do anything wrong. But I'm really vulnerable right now and I'm feeling a lot of pain right now. So that's just, that was natural, it was going to happen. But I didn't feel angry or, you know, I wasn't upset that the person said anything. I was upset because I was sad, you know, but that person didn't. You know, it wasn't a bad thing. You know it's like no, no, it's okay, you didn't do anything bad, you didn't do anything wrong. And I think that's because we are uncomfortable, the tears come out and I think, oh, my God what have we done?

Fiona Kane: 49:29

And I feel like I don't know. I feel like it's a person really said like there were times when, you know, like I'll give you an example, like with my clients, my clients were worried about me, you know. So I'd get on a call or consultation with a client and they'd ask me about mum and when, as she, when she was, when she was dying, you know and I had to kind of say, look, please just don't ask, don't talk to me about it. I will talk to you later when I'm ready, because I couldn't start a consultation. You'd about to start a consultation with someone and they how's your mum? And now you check into this place where you're watching your mother die and it's, like you know, very complicated and there's lots going on for you.

Fiona Kane: 50:07

You cannot carry on a consultation with someone and look after them and look after what they need If you launch yourself straight into that place right at the beginning of the consultation. So I actually said to my clients, I said I really I understand that you care and I understand that because I had to tell, I had to tell my clients, because I had to warn them that you know, I could suddenly cancel your appointment or things might change, or you know, I was trying to just prepare my clients that for the next few months it's a bit it would be a bit tricky and I might suddenly cancel on you or things whatever. And so and I was, I was really grateful that they cared. But I had to say that I'm glad that you care and I really appreciate that you care, but please don't ask me, and I will share, when I'm ready, as much as you need to with clients anyway, because you don't really share that much, it's not their problem, but you know.

Fiona Kane: 50:56

So sometimes I was just very honest about it and said I what I need is not to talk about that, so let's just do the consultation. So I feel like if you did, if someone wasn't comfortable, they would probably say can you not bring that up in future because I'm not ready to share or talk about that. And so, but more often than not, I think people are happy to talk and share, and I was very happy to talk and share because I felt like I had to get a lot off my chest. But it's, there are situations where maybe not, or maybe the person will just tell you and they're probably likely to tell you, but more often than not, people actually do. I feel like want to talk about it and need to share and need to be heard and need to be witnessed, or want to hear the beautiful things about your memories, about your loved one. So I suspect that more often than not, it's probably a good thing, and occasionally someone might just put some boundaries around it because they feel like they need to.

Linda Campbell: 51:51

Yeah, you actually reminded me of something else, which is never ask somebody what happened. Yes, you know, like if they want to share that that's fine. Yeah. I'll give you an example of that. About six months after my son's death, I was out shopping in a supermarket just buying bread and whatever, and I bumped into this woman who was the mother of one of his classmates from school and she hadn't heard and she asked me how he was, which is fine.

Fiona Kane: 52:33

She didn't know he died.

Linda Campbell: 52:37

And immediately she said, oh, what happened? And it's like suddenly I'm put back into that place and it's not appropriate, what would have been better? Because really she was just asking, because she was curious.

Fiona Kane: 53:00

She would have been shocked, and surprised like it would have just come out of nowhere for her.

Linda Campbell: 53:06

But it would just have been better just to have gone you know I'm sorry and left it at that.

Fiona Kane: 53:15

Yeah, and then let you. Then you have the choice to say, okay, well, I've got to get on with my shopping, but, thanks, have a nice day. Or if you want to then tell a story, you certainly can. But it gives that person that space to make that decision about whether or not they want to go there.

Linda Campbell: 53:33

Whereas it's like this oh Lord, you ride back into the trauma, back into all the trauma. So that's something that people need to be aware of. Yes, it's natural to want to know what happened. Yeah, but it's not appropriate to ask that you have to give the person the space and the time. A lot of what we've been seeing here is allowing the grieving person the time and the space to share what they want to share.

Fiona Kane: 54:08

Yeah, let them set the pace. Let them set the type of language or whether or not there's religion attached to it or not, or there's some sort of spirituality or you know whether they're talking about going to a clairvoyant and if you don't believe in that, but that gives them comfort or whatever it is just letting that person be where they need to be and do it the way that's going to work for them and having just a respect around that. You don't have to agree with everything they do or say or whatever, but just respecting that their process.

Linda Campbell: 54:40

Yeah, and I think just talking about things that we can see, as opposed to we've gone through a lot of things that is probably better not to say. But some of the things that you can say would be you know, if it's been a sudden death or a really painful death, you know it's hard to understand why these things happen. Yeah. Or you must really miss them. Yeah.

Linda Campbell: 55:15

Which is giving the person the opportunity just to share memories if they want to yeah, yeah, I know how close you were to them. You must really miss them and then, if they want, they can start sharing stuff. Yes, reassuring them that whatever they're feeling is right for them at that point in time.

Fiona Kane: 55:40

Yeah, yeah, I really feel like it's these moments in our life. I think, as human beings, we need to be witnessed, yes, and I think it's. There's a way to witness, and I think this is a whole, probably a whole other podcast we could do, because we're not comfortable with other people's pain, so we don't want to witness it. But what people need is they need a witness, and a witness that's not there to set the pace, set the agenda, and not there to sort of you know, try and make you get over it quickly so that they don't have to sit in that pain with you, but someone who's actually willing to sit there and witness and let you explore it how you need to explore it.

Fiona Kane: 56:24

I think that's a big part of it is just being prepared to be the witness, and because I think that we think that we have to do something and you know, maybe you can do something, but that might be things like you can go and buy the cat food, or you can, you know, clean the kitchen, or you can make some food for the person, or you can just listen to them. Yes, but you can't fix it, yeah, so don't go in there with your idea to fix it. Or if you just say great, you'll just have the great wise words that you'll say like it's a bit like you know the movies. You know the movies. And it gets to the point in the movie where someone just says it's great speech and then that person just gets over something. You know, I think we have this false idea about.

Fiona Kane: 57:04

You know what our role is and it's not to necessarily be the wise sage. Well, the wise sage is the person who sometimes doesn't says less, not more.

Linda Campbell: 57:15

I think just sitting there in silence, if that's what the person needs at that point in time just being there, yes, and you made a point about you know getting cat food. Then we'll say things like if there's anything you need, just let me know. The thing is that at that point in time the person can't think what they need, yeah, and even when they do, it's hard to ask for help for a lot of people. So it's better to, you know, maybe phone up and say, hey, I'm just going down the shops. What would you like me to get for you?

Fiona Kane: 57:57

You know being a bit more, yeah. Or you might even remind them if they're a bit so, they don't know what, and you say, well, have you got cat food, or have you got something for dinner tonight, or you know have you run out of milk or whatever? Yeah, yeah. Have you run out of toilet paper because you have a lot of people come to your house or whatever? I might sound silly, but just simple things like that that you just haven't even not even capable of thinking about, that's right, that's right.

Linda Campbell: 58:25

But we want to help but we don't know how. But I think we need to be more specific to that person.

Fiona Kane: 58:32

Yeah, yeah. Or there might be a person in that person's life who often there's a person who comes in and they do become the one who's a bit of a you know, in charge is probably the wrong word, but who kind of just gets things done, and maybe that's the person you need to talk to them and say, all right, you're the person in that you know you're the sister-in-law or whoever it is that's coming and is helping Whatever they need, and that person can maybe, can maybe be the one who feels all of those conversations.

Linda Campbell: 59:02

Yeah, yeah, and making sure that the person knows that they can, if this is appropriate, phone you any time, day or night, because, and be prepared to take a phone call at three o'clock in the morning, yeah, when that person has woken up, yes, and just wants to talk about something. Yes, yeah, so you know that's another way that people can help. Yeah, definitely. So I, yeah, and then that reassurance that there's no right or wrong way to grieve and that whatever they're experiencing is right for them.

Linda Campbell: 59:55

I think, yeah, it's hard, and it's mainly hard because it's coming from, as you said, being uncomfortable with somebody else's pain. And the other thing is there's some and I found I did this when my son died because his friends were really upset and they were turning up at the house and I found that I was comforting them. So you know being being careful about that as well, if there's a circle, a sort of card to explain it on on this, but there is a circle of circles of grief, if you. If you think of concentric circles getting smaller towards the middle. In the middle are the people that were closest to that person and that are hardest hit by the grief, and then the circle moves out, and it should always be comfort going from the outer circles in. Yes, comfort and support going in.

Fiona Kane: 1:01:16

Yeah, yeah, the person on the inner circle comforting the person on the outer circle should be people on the outer circles comforting the people in the inner circle.

Linda Campbell: 1:01:27

Yes.

Fiona Kane: 1:01:28

Yes, and often ends up being the other way around.

Linda Campbell: 1:01:32

It does especially, I think, for people like you and I, who are quite empathic. Yes, yeah, yeah, we support them and when I think back now, that was not really appropriate, but it was what happened at the time.

Fiona Kane: 1:01:51

Yes, yeah, and I have an awareness now that we've just gone over an hour. So I think that we we should wind this up because we've got so many topics we can talk about, and we will in the future, but is there anything that you haven't said that you really feel that you'd want to add to this?

Linda Campbell: 1:02:10

Okay, I just a little poem by Laura Coward, Grief. Maybe not love with nowhere to go, maybe love that looks different than what you thought you knew. So that's just. The love is always there, yes. Yeah. But it's going to be different. It's going to look different. Yeah.

Fiona Kane: 1:02:41

Well, I just want to thank you today. I really appreciate it, because I knew that. You know it's a big ask to ask someone to talk about these things when they've been through with a been through the ringer with it, but I really appreciate that. I felt like that. That's exactly why you're the right person, though, to have to begin these conversations around grief, because I think grief conversations are really important. I think that you have such an insight into it that you were the right person. But thank you, because not everyone would have said yes, it's not easy.

Linda Campbell: 1:03:16

Well, thank you for the opportunity because I am, I guess, a passionate person, helping people with grief to come to terms with dying.

Fiona Kane: 1:03:29

Yes, yeah, and that's a whole other episode we could maybe do is talking about the other side of it, the person who is dying, as opposed to the people dealing with the grief, because that's a what's the different type of grief. Anyway, another topic for another time. Another topic. But yeah, I really would like to thank you for that and I will put ways to connect with you in the show notes. Is there a particular website or something you want to direct people to? It'll be in the notes as well, but if you want to tell us how to contact you, walkingwithyou dot com dot au.

Linda Campbell: 1:03:58

Okay, so that was walkingwithyou dot com dot au.

Fiona Kane: 1:04:00

Yes.

Linda Campbell: 1:04:03

That's the website for the work that I do as an end of life doula.

Fiona Kane: 1:04:08

Okay, all right, and if anyone missed that, any relevant contacts I will put in the show notes so that you can contact Linda and, if it's okay with you, I would like to invite you back for some future episodes because I think we've got lots of different topics we could talk about.

Linda Campbell: 1:04:22

Yes.

Fiona Kane: 1:04:23

Yeah, that would be lovely, Thank you. Thanks again, Linda, I really appreciate it. Thanks to everyone listening and watching. Thank you for coming along for the ride and if you made it to the end of this episode, well done, because I know it says tricky. These are tricky emotions and tricky conversations. And please, if you can, like and subscribe and share so I can build this podcast. And thank you so much and I will see you all again next week. Thanks, bye.