The Construction Veteran Podcast
Welcome to the Construction Veteran Podcast. This is a podcast connecting and celebrating veterans in construction, those who have the desire to be in the industry, and those who support them to create the built environment.
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The Construction Veteran Podcast
From the Battlefield to the Job Site: A Mental Health Dialogue
What if the pressure to be perfect is silently harming our best workers? Join us to uncover the hidden mental health crisis within the construction industry as we sit down with Thomas LeMay and Brian Winningham. Thomas, the child of a Navy veteran, and Brian, a former Ranger, bring their expert perspectives to a crucial conversation on leadership and mental health. They introduce their collaborative project—a book aimed at equipping foremen with essential leadership tools, filling a vital gap in support and training for those on the front lines.
We delve into the story of Emilio Stevens, a veteran who transitioned into a foreman role, and his harrowing experience of losing a colleague to suicide. This emotional narrative brings to light the systemic issues plaguing the industry, from relentless demands to inadequate mental health support. We explore the devastating impact of bad leadership on team morale and mental well-being, emphasizing the need for a cultural shift to prioritize mental health and work-life balance.
Ending on a note of hope and practical advice, we discuss the importance of self-care and seeking help. Drawing from personal experiences, we share actionable steps for setting boundaries and managing stress effectively. Highlighting the analogy of the hidden roof leak, we stress the importance of recognizing and addressing mental health issues before they lead to irreversible consequences. Join us in this vital discussion to better understand the intersection of leadership, mental health, and the construction industry.
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If you're a military veteran in the construction industry, or you're in the construction industry and support our military vets, and you'd like to be a guest on the podcast you can find me at constructionvetpodcast@gmail.com , or send me a message on LinkedIn. You can find me there at Scott Friend. Let's share the stories and motivate others!
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but also protect your body from your own mind, and that your mind is very powerful. It's like a supercomputer.
Speaker 2:It'll trick your own body this is the construction veteran podcast, connecting and celebrating veterans in construction now. Now, here's your host, scott Friend.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to a special episode of the Construction Veteran, where I talk with Thomas LeMay and Brian Winningham about a very somber subject, but one that needs to be discussed in the construction industry mental health and taking of one's own life.
Speaker 2:Thomas, and Brian. How are you guys Doing? Fantastic Doing great.
Speaker 3:Very good. Well, this is a unique episode. This is not going to air on my typical Mondays because I want to get this out as soon as possible. We are in the midst of Suicide Prevention Month, very now well talked about within the industry Not well as in a positive light, but it's become a lot more noticed by a lot of people throughout the industry, and especially veterans within the construction industry. So I've got Brian and Thomas on with me. Brian is a returning guest, my first. I feel like I should send you a trophy. Yeah, very good. So I'm going to ask Brian and Thomas to introduce themselves real quick. Just a quick background on your service and what you do in the construction industry, brian. We'll start with you.
Speaker 2:Sure, I was a long time ago, back 1988 to 92. I was a member of the 3rd Ranger Battalion, 75th Regiment, so I spent my time as a ranger. After I got out, I went to school for a little while and ended up back in construction, where I'd been most of my life before the service anyway in construction, where I'd been most of my life before the service anyway. And then a few years ago well, back in the early 2000s I became a project manager and did that for almost 20 years. And now I'm a consultant. I help companies and teams and projects have better outcomes than they might normally have.
Speaker 1:Very good, well said. How about you, thomas? I am Thomas LeMay. I work at DPR. My path's a little different. I am a child of a veteran and of a career Navy guy and I would like, uh, I would, I would like to say that, uh, the GI bill, definitely, uh, was the reason why I'm here, because, uh, in through that, through the process of that, uh, my father met my mother and and immediately went into the United States Naval Reserve. Uh, and then I was brought into this world shortly thereafter. So that's my part. But Brian and I crossed paths on many, many. Actually, we actually worked for the same company for a good while and didn't even know each other. But we crossed paths on the construction kind of the lean, lean and continuous improvement groups kind of online, and then we just go from there. So I'm happy you guys are.
Speaker 3:you're located in different spots, right? So Brian you're down in San Antonio, thomas you're in South Carolina, is that correct?
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, it's very neat how we can all get together and do this and have a chat. So reason I have these guys on is Brian had reached out to me. He and Thomas are working on a very unique project. He's kind of given a little bit of snippets here and there on social media, but I want to let you guys lead the charge here and tell me about what we're here to talk about and what is it you guys are working on.
Speaker 2:So we're working on a book aimed at foreman trade foreman basically giving them some tools and leadership tools that they can use. We feel like that there's a huge gap there. We both spent time in the field, like a lot of folks do, and we feel like there's a huge gap there. You know that there's really something missing. So we've been working on that for a while and I don't know. Go ahead and tell a little bit more, thomas, and then I'll jump in about how we got started, on why we're here today.
Speaker 1:I didn't even know you, Brian, and I was introduced to some of your work. And then Brian here he's a warrior poet, if no one knows and go to rangerwinniecom and that's what I did. That's actually how I was initially introduced to Brian here and there's some heavy stuff in there and our chapter, which we just recently posted, is right there alongside of it. But what we're trying to do and what kind of maybe I encourage Brian, I pulled on his heartstrings, I go, I want to write a book about small unit leadership and he's like oh yes, it speaks to the ranger in him.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh yeah, oh you know, it speaks to the ranger in him. Yes, oh yeah, oh, you know it right, the ranger in CO with that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, and I was like it's not about a lot and a lot of the publications and books and there's consultants out there and they're all great. And there's consultants out there and they're all great. They talk a lot about like, hey, we need to do process improvement on a big scale, like we need to get out GoPros and we got to change entire operations, or we have to change our contracts or we have to buy really expensive like pieces of equipment, and those are all good and I'm a big part of that. But what I'm interested in now is leaders who may not even like think of themselves as a leader, but you work in a group of maybe five to seven people. But if you think about the workers who work in groups in a crew of like five to seven people, think of like a foreman, and our main character in this chapter and in the rest of this book is he works in a framing and drywall crew. So if you think about framing and drywall crew, you have layout, you have detailers who do you know, like the trim and the backing, and then you have the kind of production workers who do work at height, and so you have a lot of various jobs and there's a lot of things that need to happen. You have material moving and then you have the flow of information, and then you also have like change and then you also have the element of danger.
Speaker 1:And I was like I finally got to meet Brian in person we were in New Orleans and I was like, have you ever like seen one of these kits? And I was like showing him one of these kits. I think you take them to ranger school, or probably it's for officers that take them to ranger school. I think you were telling me this, but like it's string and it's like um little magnets and and little things and you build and you were like that's a sand table. And I was like no, this is like a logistic thing. I'm like what I am really interested in is that kind of stuff. It's you work in a small group of people. You don't have to have really expensive things to do massive change.
Speaker 1:What I mean by that is like if you wanted to do better organization of your workspace, you could just pick up trash off the floor or rearrange the things that are in your buggy or in your scissor lift and make it more efficient. And then, once you do that it's like, okay, now I can somehow see that, I see that this is labeled here, this is here, and I say like I need this and all of a sudden you say, okay, I need this and I link that together. And if you link that together, you suddenly need more people, right? So you start to work in a small unit and this is like where I'm like I have to think about this, but also think about this, perhaps with more of an expert who's been expertly trained in this and and and and probably the the world's most difficult crucible both, both in the regimen and and in all your cool guy schools that you've gone to, and and in activity. But um, um.
Speaker 1:So I just started to ask Brian these questions and, and, and he's been teaching me about the kind of things that that I've listened and, and, being a child of a veteran, and maybe this is this is something to talk about here just for a second. But you've partitioned off your life. So my father, vietnam, he partitions that off. I'm like pantomiming a partition and that's not even talked about. There might be. His uniform is hung up in a closet, that's like in the guest room and there might, and his shadow box is like down in the basement, like way in the corner, and that's it. There's there's no other mention of it and both my grandfather's ones, world War II, the other one's Korea, same way, same way, um, so I like, and even if you tried to bring it up, they changed the subject, but for whatever reason, brian finally, like was willing to talk about it and I said it's like you open the floodgates and that's where we really went into.
Speaker 1:So we've started to combine the ideas. It's like, if you take small unit leadership, small unit tactics, these ways you move, the way you organize, even the way you talk, like plan signaling, we talk, you talk like plan plan signaling. We talk about signaling like using your hands or the way you mark studs. It's similar to, perhaps, the way you would use smoke or talk on the radio. So we definitely like, really get into that and we break it down and we use the and it's all fiction, but we use the stories in there to teach some lessons that you can like immediately take away, um, even in your small unit and in your own personal life.
Speaker 1:And so we started this book and it starts in a heavy way and you talked about that this week is, you know, construction prevention week, construction suicide prevention week, and then this month is suicide awareness week in the United States overall, and we go right at it and you have to have it be a ranger to have violence of action.
Speaker 1:And maybe I'll let Brian kind of reflect a little more, but I think that's the way, and this chapter is the genesis of the rest of the book and it lurches our character and his small unit into change because of this situation, a death, and it's unexpected, and when you deal with suicide you deal with unexpected death.
Speaker 1:Um, a lot of things suddenly that were unseen suddenly become incredibly seen, and a lot of facts that were once hidden, like drug abuse or depression or not feeling well or problems at home, suddenly become incredibly clear once they're gone, because that person who has been hiding that can't do it anymore because they're not there. And so what we want to say in this chapter is you have to be able to recognize when somebody is hiding, you have to recognize the signs. And Uh, yeah, maybe I was, I'm getting a little hung up here on my words, but uh, you have to. You have to recognize those signs. So we, we, we started this chapter off and it's heavy right off the front of the gate, but it's heavy for that reason that it kind of pulls you into this to the story. I mean, I'll let Brian talk a little more.
Speaker 2:It's the reason that we have changed Scott, you know, for the for the rest of the book have changed Scott, you know for the for the rest of the book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Brian, before you kind of get after it, um, I will say so. You guys released a sneak, a sneak peek, of the book. Um, I've seen it. Uh, you shared on LinkedIn. I plan on sharing it as well. Um, it's like Thomas said, it's on Brian's website where he writes some wonderful poetry that's rangerwinniecom.
Speaker 3:But you guys have done a tremendous job of getting that hook and it's it's it's heavy, Um, and it speaks to those of us who, you know, served in the field, um, who have lost people, you know, in the field or or at war, Uh, but I like that, the, the turn you guys have really focused on our industry, specifically um, in the field or or at war, Um, but I like the, the, the turn you guys have really focused on our industry, specifically um, and the stressors of that, and I'm just like waiting to hear more. I'm like, okay, give me the next chapter. So you guys have done a tremendous job on getting that hook in there right off the bat. Um, so I appreciate that. So, Brian, um, what do you want to speak to about the book?
Speaker 2:well, let me, let me first say it's probably first part, you know, first first part of next year, before the book is done. So just just, uh, uh, not going to say there won't be any more releases between now and then, we may, may, release a chapter come on man now and then. But uh, uh, for sure, uh, first part of next year, the whole first taste is free.
Speaker 1:Good you book will be done.
Speaker 2:First taste is free. Good, you get them hooked right.
Speaker 3:First taste is free, I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I mean it's just let me read something to you that I wrote very early in this process with Thomas, because it just kind of tells you why that we're doing what we're doing. As we look at a construction crew and a fire team side by side, we can begin to see some ways in which the structures and the work itself are very similar. A major similarity and much of what drives people to do this work, is that in both professions, value is created by the smallest units, who are closest to the work. The greatest impact we can have on the work is at this level. This is where transformation happens. That being the case, we must figure out how we can impact these folks' lives in positive ways, as well as increase their capacity for leadership. Bad leadership at the executive level costs companies an estimated $550 billion annually. Bad leadership is also pervasive in that bad leaders tend to surround themselves with other bad leaders. It becomes a compounding problem and ruins company culture and, ultimately, people's lives, and that's what we want to fight.
Speaker 3:But yeah, yeah, that's really good. And, Brian, since we had our episode together on the construction veteran, I've gotten a chance to speak to a lot of people. And you're right, it's neat when I get to hear from folks that have served at the tip of the spear, other special operations folks and everybody in between, how there's such a similarity between the service and this industry. But it boils down to it being all about the people, and I mean I hate to use the word resource, but they are the most important resource, if you will, in this industry. We can't do this without the people. Um, so if people want to see that um, uh, initial chapter of the book, they can go to rangerwinniecom. And can you guys give us, just like maybe, a snippet real quick to hook them in there?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So the whole scene opens up, or the chapter opens up on a Sunday evening and Emilio Stevens is our, our, our foreman, and he was also an 82nd veteran. I don't think we say where he was a veteran, but we say he was a veteran, he was. He was also a veteran, served in the, the, the global war on terror, the GWAT wars, and you know. So he gets a notification on a Sunday evening. He's in his backyard and he's just sitting there. You know we opened with him just sitting there staring at his phone, going, oh my God, he's just gotten notified that one of his journeyman drywall people has just lost their life to suicide and he's trying to figure out what to do. Right, and you know, first thought goes out to his, the guy's wife and kids. And then, all of a sudden, you know, because of what's, what's happened in his life previously, he's in the middle of a flashback, uh, you know, going back to a time when he lost a friend in in, uh war, in a firefight, and uh, you know he wasn't there, so he didn't see it happen, just like he didn't see this happen. And uh, you know it, just it, it it impacted him and uh, you know it just it impacted him, and you know. But what we see is he's he's got tools to use now. So he starts, he goes and he sits down on his back patio when he, you know, as soon as he recognized what's happening, and he opens his meditation app and he starts breathing. He starts four, seven, eight breathing, you know, four seconds in, seven seconds of holding, and then eight seconds out, slowly, and he just starts doing that, you know, until he can get on top of it.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, from there, the next scene we see is the next morning when he's got to inform the crew and there we start to see some of the signs that were apparent that we didn't really nobody looked at. Because why, you know? Why would they? And you know. And then from there we go to the funeral and you know he has a conversation with Alberto, is the person who died. He has a conversation with her wife, you know.
Speaker 2:And then we go a little further along and he's gone and taken a class on how to approach this and how to talk to people who may be in distress, and he's kind of on a not a great project, you can kind of tell. We start to get ideas about this here, that his project isn't all that great because the superintendent that's that's there is kind of he's like when are you replacing him? When are you replacing Alberto? When are we getting that replacement in? You know what I mean. Just like the day after, uh, you know, and then and then was like pretty angry that they all missed because of the funeral. You know that his whole crew missed because of funeral and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:So he's a villain. I don't like that. Guy already have to read he's not. He's not, seems like it at first.
Speaker 2:It's, it's the industry that's the villain. To be honest with you, you know it really is.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about that. I want to. Um, thomas, I'm gonna kick it over to you real quick. So we both work for rather large companies. Um, what do you think we're doing wrong and what can we do better? I mean, I have my own ideas, but we're just driving people into the ground literally. Um, and that's what we're focusing on here. What's your take?
Speaker 1:it's systematic. What I mean by that and I say this a lot um, there are some roles, roles in our industry that the the. Even if you're working super hard and you're the only thing that you can do is work hard, like come in early and stay late and get after it and really get into drawings and this is the only thing that you can do, and that thing that you're doing is making everything worse because you're getting tired, you're getting stressed and you're making mistakes. But the demand, meaning the system, is you need to be here. You need to be here super early, you need to be here late. You need to disappear when really important people show up. You also need to be here late. You need to disappear when you know really important people show up. You also need to do these wacky hours because we can't disrupt. You know something else that is seemingly more important because it costs money or whatever things.
Speaker 1:So a lot of the things that we put people into into our system are terribly designed for human beings, and I'll give you one example, and that's drilling overhead and electricians and plumbers, mechanical workers they do this a lot.
Speaker 1:You have your arm above your heart and they do this a lot where they, you know you have your arm above your heart and you're, and they do this all day long, and usually you're on, uh, some kind of elevated device like a scissor lift or baker scaffold or, worse, a ladder, and so you're, it's, it's just, it's very injurious to your body. So if you do that all day and that's you know, that's what you were lined out to do, even if you did a really good job like you're a super accurate and you're super highly productive like you you've wiped yourself out. All of your energy is wiped out, and so when you go home, one, you're probably covered in silica dust and two, you're tired, and so you go home to your family and there's almost nothing left of you. And not to mention, um, a lot of our workers almost half of them, and probably that's probably more than half nowadays commute more than two hours each way, and that's it's. It's really hard, like, how do we fix that?
Speaker 2:like geez, we talk about that in the story too yes, we talk about the energy drinks yeah, I mean go to go to go to any convenience store at 5 30 in the morning. Who do you see there and what are they buying?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah so we actually yeah, so that's in like the fourth section, so like part of the system that. So one thing-.
Speaker 2:Drink those all day. Then you got to drink a six pack of beer to go to sleep. Right, we take yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you work 10 hours and you commute for four hours and you're, by the way, you're supposed to, like you know, have a life, so, like, where do you sleep in this, like you, don't you? Actually our workers will take a part of their, you know, required sleep out, and all of the studies have shown if you don't get that, last, and it's the in those last two hours of sleep is the most beneficial to human health, and if you don't get it, you get really poor quality sleep. So to feel better is to reach for, you know, substances. The easiest one is when you're filling up gas on the way into work. Energy drinks are right there and they just it's false.
Speaker 2:And since it's a two-hour drive home, you've got to get gas on the way home. So you start that 12-pack right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're in reverse and we wanted to talk about that in this chapter because it feeds into you and it's in this chapter. If you've ever dealt with someone who's passed, especially an unexpected death, it's really, it's really unsettling and you live. You live your life in kind of scenes and especially this happened to me you live your life in scenes. So we wanted to have these kind of quick, hitting, uh kind of sections in this chapter, kind of sections in this chapter and they start with a. It starts with kind of like a schedule. It's like two and a half weeks on a Wednesday afternoon and it builds and then they get a little longer and they get a little longer. There's more time in between, but you live your life in between the scenes. What you don't see in this chapter you still need to go call in that in-wall inspection. We still got to pour concrete on friday, like that never ends right, we got it.
Speaker 1:You know we have a major delivery that's got to get hooked up to the tower crane and move to the roof and that's we got a, we got a window, we have approval by the city. We really have one chance. So, like you have to kind of take life I was talking about my father partitioning off it's the same thing with construction. You take that your life and just put it on hold while this thing has to happen.
Speaker 2:And I would be willing to bet that most construction dudes probably don't talk about how shitty their day was with their wife either most of the time, oh yeah you know, I mean I bring that crap home with you, right? Yeah?
Speaker 3:I'm ashamed to tell you how many energy drinks I had today, to be quite honest and I I do say that tongue in cheek, but in all seriousness when I reached for my second energy drink today, I went man, I really shouldn't be doing this because it was because of the book and I'm like man, I really. I got to do something different, get better quality sleep. And you know, thomas, to your point it's, you're always on, but I think there's always this unspoken expectation for perfection. That's another very difficult part of our, our industry. And we're human, you know we make mistakes, and I think personally me as a leader. When somebody makes a mistake, I try to be human and hey man, it just don't do it again. It happens. You screwed up big deal, you learned to understand how it happened.
Speaker 2:Can we make? Sure that it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 3:If you make it 10 more times, then we're going to have a completely different conversation. But you know, I think that that, to me, is what really stands out and it really ruins your mental health. There's this expectation that everything is going to go right, and it never goes right on any project. I mean it would. It sounds great, but drawings will have some issues. It's going to happen. You're going to have people that don't show up to work. There's going to be some quality issues, no matter how hard you try. But what I appreciate about the first chapter of the book that you guys release is how he's taking that turn as a leader and really enforcing hey, I'm going to make sure my guys are healthy and whole.
Speaker 2:So I'm really excited to see what's next for his journey. I guess my contribution to what Thomas said would be go talk to any group of people who work in construction and find out anybody that you talk to who works less than 50 hours a week. And that's from the top all the way down, and it's it's almost non-existent. Uh, and they've done all these studies that say that working all these hours is really really bad for you, you know, bad for your health, and we don't do it for short periods of time, we do it for whole careers and it's crazy.
Speaker 3:I, you know that has been the mentality for so long and I think maybe it's crazy. I, you know that has been the mentality for so long and I think maybe it's changing. I don't know. I hope it is. I hope it is. I definitely, yeah, I absolutely hope it is.
Speaker 3:But one thing that I can do is I can take care of myself and I'm not going to, I'm not going to work myself to death, and if that causes me to not make the next promotion, so be it. I want my family life healthy, you know. I want my kids to know who I am, because I know way too many people and I'm sure you guys do too that they'll do these crazy 70, 80 hour weeks, like do you hate your family or what are you? What are you doing? Man, nobody's asking you to work these hours. Um, and I it took me a little while to finally put my foot down as a superintendent to say no, you're not, you're not working four hours extra tonight I got to go home, just like you do. It's not my fault, you know, and I was letting people take advantage of me, and I think we do that a lot in leadership. Um, yeah, it's no big deal Work two extra hours here, four extra hours there Cause you got to get the job done. I don't think we're leading the job very well If that's the case, if we're working these crazy hours.
Speaker 3:And what's unique that I've found is when I started holding people to those hours like guys. We're not going to work anymore in 10 hours period. Eight hours is the goal. We're not going to work anymore in 10 hours a day. And you start to see this shift in people that you know guys like OT I get that, but it's not all about the money. Guys and you start getting better production out of them. They have a better family life. Um, there's all kinds of things we can go into. I got a question about the book. Was there something specific that really like? What was the impetus to write this specific story about this individual?
Speaker 2:I don't, I'm trying to think, I think so this was like one of the last chapters that we've even started on.
Speaker 1:This one got backed into.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we sort of backed into this, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I knew. So I knew I wanted to do something for construction suicide prevention week, because I've done something for the last three years, just you know, done whatever. And it just came to me. I just started having these thoughts.
Speaker 2:It's like because we, you know, emilio's the guy and we talk about him like he's a person all the time between Thomas and I, like he's someone we know. But you know, it's like what is the impetus for them to change? What is driving them to want, you know, to even need to change? Because you know, usually it takes a shovel to the head to kind of get people to want to change, because change sucks and change is hard and you know you have to practice at it. It's, you know, like it's not something that we're just really naturally do, because we run away from change often, as often as we can. I mean I can't tell you how many times that I worked with people on construction sites that as soon as something changed on the construction site, it blew them away because they couldn't figure out how to change gears in their mind. You know the plan needs to change and you know, and that's really where it came from and it just, it was something that started sitting on my heart. You know that this is what I wanted us to do.
Speaker 2:So I approached Thomas about it and I said, thomas, well, no, I think I actually wrote it first, didn't I? And then said, yeah, so I wrote like some of it out, like the first two parts of it or something like that, and gave it to Thomas, and Thomas was like, yeah, this is it like that. And gave it to Thomas and Thomas was like, yeah, this is it. And then, you know, we started, you know, going back and forth and and you know and it's something that both of us have kind of remarked on it's like I can't tell you what parts I wrote and what parts Thomas wrote.
Speaker 2:It's just it's been that kind of partnership and it's taken us a while to get there. Don't get me wrong, but it's I. There isn't. There isn't a division. I mean, it's just we both wrote it, and other people have asked me about that too. You know how do you do that with a co-writer? I don't think I could, and it's like I didn't think I could either, but it's just, I couldn't tell you what I wrote and what Thomas wrote, to be honest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. I really enjoyed that, that first chapter you guys release, and I'll say, if the rest of the book is anything like that, then I hope every C-suite executive on down reads this thing, because I think it could. It could cause some major changes. But my question, thomas, I'll kick it to you. Um, if people are listening to this and they're going, yeah, this sounds all good and well, what can I do, regardless of their, their rank, if you will, in the structure, what, what, what can somebody physically do tomorrow to make a difference?
Speaker 1:at the bottom, the, the last section, it's. It's really fleeting, but, um, if you had the opportunity, go down. It's like the show notes, author's notes, author's notes. And it starts off with the third stanza of the Ranger Creed. As a civilian, that stanza gives me chills Gives me chills too, so that's okay.
Speaker 1:I probably didn't have to do push-ups while saying it, but it's like never shall I fail my comrades. Like never, never. There's not like. Those guys over there are assholes, right, If you have that true mindset that I will never fail those guys. I might struggle and I might have issues. They're still going to be assholes, yes, oh, no doubt.
Speaker 2:But you still don't fail them either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I struggled and I say this publicly now, but I struggled with mental illness, with panic disorder and anxiety, and I would go, I would used to have panic attacks and this happened through all geez, probably the first 15 years of my career before I finally got help.
Speaker 1:And the only reason I got help was somebody finally caught me passed out. Only reason I got help was somebody finally caught me passed out. I wasn't able to hide because I was on the floor unconscious, and if you don't know what a panic attack is, it's an imbalance and for me anyways, it's different for many people, but it's a chemical imbalance. Is what happened to your body? Your body is feeling attacked and so your fight or flight mechanisms in your, in your brain and in your hormone system and in your nervous system kick in and your, your, your body goes into protection mode and one of the ways it does it, and does it for me, is it's like I just hold my breath and I will pass out. I'm like a possum, I guess, but I don't know how that's being very protective, but there's panic attacks, there's anxiety attacks.
Speaker 2:Anxiety attacks are very different and they're more what I suffer in my mental illness. They're more like a ramp up to get there, like that building, building, building, and that's sort of like how the anxiety is a little bit different. But go up, go on, thomas.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I want people to know that because and you have to if people are struggling mentally, they're not going to do it in the middle of the OAC meeting. Okay, you might break down and have a mental breakdown and cry or something, but you're not going to. Typically it's not going to happen in a social setting, but it will most definitely happen in a hidden aspect. In our job sites.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of hiding spots and on the website and maybe you can include this as the thumbnail but we show a Connex box and you look into it and it's sturdy and it's messy and there's some moldy cardboard that's on the floor. Um, don't forget the coffee cup. And I'll get to the coffee cup and and so the coffee cup sets me off. So there's a coffee cup just set right on the the edge and you would, you would set that and the reason why that coffee cup. And then this isn't my picture, but I I just it.
Speaker 1:It triggers me because this would be something I would do and I want to share this with people that you would set your coffee cup there on the edge because you didn't want to spill it when you're about to pass out, nor did you want any of the mold and dust and, you know, in the death zone inside that thing to get into your coffee, because that's gross. This is what a person who suffers mentally like seriously goes through, and that's that place is where people suffer on job sites. I would also do it in stairwells, and the reason why I would do it in a stairwell is because you could hear people coming up or down so you could just shoot out the door. If you were at least on your feet, if you were sitting down, you could be like oh, I was just walking up 10 flights of stairs, I'm just resting.
Speaker 1:Checking messages on my phone. Yeah, in the after action review, aar. I thought that was cool, that was a good ad, brian. We talk about it. We said it's often hidden and I want people to know. The thing that you can take away and do tomorrow, scott, is look for it, because it's the worst thing. It's hidden. Number one and two we don't look for it. So if one thing is hidden and two, we don't look for it, then it'll never be found until it emerges.
Speaker 1:And a suicide is an emergent thing. It's just like a roof leak right, like you don't think about a really poorly executed roofing detail around a roof drain until it rains three inches in one day. And then, all of a sudden, it's like why didn't we do the inspection on the roofing Right? It suddenly becomes so clear, but it's too late. All of your insulation on your roof is ruined and you have to do all kinds of crazy rework.
Speaker 1:The problem with suicide is forever. There's no going back, there's no rework, there's no rework, it's forever. There's no rework, there's no rework, it's forever. So in the next bullet after that, that impulsive decision, that decision that I choose death over any other outcome that can kill me. And so if it's a hidden issue and no one's looking for it, or like we go out of our way, not like like we, we go our way to ignore it, then that that's just as bad as as the act of suicide in, in my opinion. So like we have to like. This week is so important because it raises awareness of it, but since this is towards the end of the week, what's really important is that next week we don't stop or we don't forget. We take action. And it's free. You don't need anything, any other thing aside from reading this website, but you can go there. There's no paywall.
Speaker 3:Well, what I do appreciate too that you guys talked about in that first chapter and I'm not giving anything away, cause it's out there in the ether, if you will but how he? He went up to that gentleman and just, uh, the the other tradesmen, and said, hey, what's going on, like you could tell something's different. And we, we, I think we see those signs, but a lot of us aren't humble enough to go up and say something. And so you know, we're all in this together and I try to talk to our tradesmen about that too.
Speaker 3:Hey, I know you guys can all collectively hate me and that's the general contractor, and we say that tongue in cheek, but it's we're, we really are in this together and we're one team. And I'm looking out for you and I see you guys more than I do my own family. So I can tell when you're in a bad mood, uh, way better than I can tell if my own wife is in a bad mood, but that's a whole other story. But you know, you can tell when somebody comes in and they're either overly chipper or they're just down in the dumps. And so I think and Brian, I, I think you might agree with this You've got a couple more gray hairs than Thomas and I pepper Um, but you've seen the industry change.
Speaker 2:No, no, this is, this is all. You bleach it.
Speaker 3:Um, but I think, even in the last decade I'd say maybe even five years that things have changed where talking about your mental health has become a lot more acceptable Um, taking mental health days, or companies offering things like free therapy sessions, things like that Um, so I, I, I think we're doing a good job talking about it more, but talking about it isn't preventing it, I think talking to the individual is really what's going to help.
Speaker 1:There's so much good that's happened now. We have employee resources groups, we have mental health professionals that come to like at DPR, many of our job sites, DPR, like many of our job sites, we've had people like Brian who are certified and to teaching people to recognize a sign happen. And we're not the only ones. It's happening all over Like that's all great. That got us to now the awareness, the websites, the LinkedIn posts it hasn't changed the number at all.
Speaker 1:People like yes, yes. People like yes, yes, we need to find those. What is it? 53 people out of every hundred thousand. We have to talk directly to them, so like to find them. We have to get in so many more mediums. We've got to get into huddles, get on walls, get in books, get in websites, be on the radio, get in movies. Like we just can't stop you. Just all of the stuff that we've gotten to got us to today and that was really amazing, amazing work. But now we can't stop until that thing is that's zero. And then, once it's zero, let's move on to another industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, brian, I think it might've been the episode you and I did together where we were talking about people traveling and just especially the travelers. Man, I really feel for them and I've traveled a few times in my career and it just, it'll eat you alive. And I've had my own mental health struggles, especially during travel. Um, I've been very open about my alcoholism and it came to a head the last job I traveled for and it just, it got worse and worse and I'm thinking, oh, it's no big deal, but that could have led me down a really much darker path. Who knows what could have happened. But I'm not ashamed to talk about this stuff because I want people out there to hear hey, you're not alone, you really aren't. I mean, we say that and it sounds super cliche, but we're all going through this crap together.
Speaker 2:Thomas is traveling right now.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, poor Thomas.
Speaker 2:That's why there's nothing on the walls behind him.
Speaker 3:Oh nice.
Speaker 1:But we were actually we were talking about that just a little bit ago. Um, like I am away from home during the week, um, but uh, like I have many, many comforts that uh, a lot of people, um, do not, do not even though.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you're the guy who's traveling yeah, yeah, I mean, if you're the new guy 20 year old, you know, labor or whatnot and traveling for just above minimum wage and making that per diem, that's all well and good. But, like you guys said, you're going out, you're drinking all these energy drinks and you're getting drunk, feeling like crap the next day, and that's a tough life.
Speaker 2:And the sad fact is, sleeping in a hotel with probably two, three other guys Yep.
Speaker 3:And it happens a lot more than people want to admit. I mean that that is very common in our industry and it's, it's sad, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And also it's hidden also and we don't look for it, we don't talk about it. It's one of those hidden things. Everybody just knows that it happens and nobody says anything, or you know it's.
Speaker 1:It's one of those hidden things. Everybody just knows that it happens and nobody says anything, or you know it's. It's, um, yeah, like one one thing that we really can use more awareness and and you just mentioned it like the travelers, but it's not the people with the, the the easy street. Uh, you know that I'm the shiny boots now guy, even though I do take a construction selfie on the job site once in a while, but um but uh yeah, it's the pipe crews. Put me in pipe crews.
Speaker 2:They get after it.
Speaker 1:Um, but they're in the heat. I mean I'm here in South Carolina and I mean you're, it's a hundred degrees, you're down in a ditch or no breeze. I mean it's 100 degrees, you're down in a ditch, there's no breeze, and the thing that they have to go back to to rest is like a hotel room that they share with the same dudes that they're in the ditch with all day, probably Not a healthy environment. Yeah, and probably a 30 rack of keystones between them.
Speaker 3:You happen to get just a fight on the job site with that same guy. Now you got to deal with him and you talk about stress going through the roof.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult and that it all, it all kind of combines, um, and you don't see that because it's not on, there's no place for that once you leave the gate right. Um, we expect, I mean I expect that same pipe crew I was talking to this afternoon, tomorrow morning 6 am be be, you know, sober, alert and ready for the safety briefing, because we're going to get back after tomorrow and probably again on Saturday. Definitely get back on Saturday if it's dry, and that's just the way. That's just how we work in our industry. I'm sure it's the same way where you work. I'm sure it's the same way in Texas where Brian is.
Speaker 2:Scott's in Texas also. He's just up in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the ritzy part, I guess of Texas. I don't claim Dallas, though I'm far enough south. Even though I live near Dallas.
Speaker 1:But it was the same way in San Francisco, california, where I used to work, and it's no different here in the great state of Georgia or South Carolina, I don't care who's telling you what on the internet or TV. There is good people everywhere we go. Yeah, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:Well, gentlemen, I really appreciate your time. I'm going to wrap it up here. One final question for both of you. So where can people get more involved and get behind this message and support you guys? Can people get?
Speaker 1:more involved and get behind this message and support you guys. You got to say it. It was Brian's idea. He just dropped it on Monday, but but drop it again.
Speaker 2:It's at rangerwinniecom. You can find it. You can find the link on my website. You can. You can talk to us there. You know, to be honest, I got a call today from a guy in distress and it's heartbreaking. You know this industry and it goes from one end to the other. This suicide issue we have. It's from the labor to the CEO. It's not just affecting one portion of our workforce, it's affecting everybody. The stress and the stuff that we have on our jobs is just so, so high. Self-care, self-care, self-care so important. Please do it, take care of yourselves. And yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. My company's name is Field Driven Lean. You can look me up there. Brian Winningham, I'll give you all the links.
Speaker 3:I'll share everything if you guys hadn't heard Brian and I chatting last year. It's crazy. It's already been over a year probably, but if you hadn't heard that episode, I'd encourage everybody to go listen to that. Thomas, I know we're connected on LinkedIn. I'll be sure to share your profile there as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys have some people reaching out, and same with me. If anybody ever wants to talk, I'm open man. It's whatever you want to say to me behind closed doors or over the phone, let's discuss.
Speaker 2:Well, I became this year, because this means so much to me. I became a mental health first aid instructor.
Speaker 1:Oh cool.
Speaker 2:So I'm yeah, I'm like, I said like a friend of mine that meant well, and you know we posted it on LinkedIn and he came on and said something about you know, thank you for raising awareness, and I said you know I I appreciate your support, but this isn't awareness, this is action. We're taking action now because we can't just continually just raise awareness. We have to take action, amen.
Speaker 3:Good stuff.
Speaker 1:That's um, that's the. The. Why I went to Brian and I was like I want to talk to you about smaller unit leadership, because I knew I was like he would do it. He's like, yeah, I would do it and be encouraged to do it. I am so incredibly grateful for is for those people who have dedicated all of their lives and some of them the ultimate sacrifice, into the military. That's why I'm honored to be on your podcast, scott.
Speaker 1:But it's important to also know that you have to take action and that's why we put in the in the, at the towards the end. It's like it's the same reason why airlines want you to put your oxygen mask on first. If you pass out, if you're passed out in the hallway or in the in the connex, you can't help anybody else. So if you're struggling, if you're, if you're even just feeling just a little bit uneasy, you got to take action and use those techniques that you've learned, those breathing exercises, those resources, your battle buddy, those kind of things. Call a friend, call me or Brian, hit up Scott, hit us in the DMs and we'll write you back. Yeah, call me or Brian, hit up Scott, hit us in the DMs.
Speaker 3:Slide in the DMs.
Speaker 1:And we'll write you back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's really well said, man. Take care of yourself. Make sure you're good first, yeah.
Speaker 1:Take care of yourself first, 100%. And that way and I've said this before if you think about the things that a human being needs to survive, and that's water, that's food, that's sleep, if you, if you're, if you're missing those things at work, like if you're, if you're not getting clean water, you can't even breathe, like you're, you're breathing in dust and it's okay. Like, why don't you man up like it's a little drywall, dust, leave immediately. There is no place for that. Or if, like, if you're working at a place where it's like you can't get clean access to water, somebody asks you there's no place for that.
Speaker 1:It's not protected any of that just don't do it not, there is no place for that right. And then so also be aware and that's that's, from a safety standpoint, your health like, protect your body there, but also protect your body from your own mind, and that your mind is very powerful. It's like a supercomputer. It'll trick your own body. So, um, you have to seek help because you can't even overcome it.
Speaker 1:I'm standing here today to have testimony that seeking help you can't even sometimes do it yourself. You've got to be thrust into it. But be open to it, and it's a very manly thing to do, is what I want to say, because being around for your family, uh, down, you know, down at later on in life is what it's all about really, is what it's truly about that, that, that 3am poor that we got in like three and a half years ago, I don't even remember it barely Like I remember being pissed off and that was it. So it was not an achievement. So, um, take care of yourself. That's all I got. Thank you so much, scott, and thank thanks everybody.
Speaker 3:Thanks, scott, thank you guys.
