Little Beer Fest with John Holl, Matty Hargrove, Lisa Allen, and Augie Carton

Celebrating the love of low ABV beers

Last year's Little Beer Fest provided unusually cold temps in Duluth, GA with a bit of "wintery mix," aka rain, snow, and sleet.  Fortunately we didn't see a repeat and this year's event provided plenty of sunshine and temps in the 70s.  Perfect weather for enjoying some low ABV beers.  Huge shoutout to Todd DiMatteo and Good Word Brewing for hosting a great festival.

Matty Hargrove - Blackberry Farm Brewery

As we sipped our way through the festival we talked with Matty Hargrove from Blackberry Farm Brewery.  He brought us Bloody Marys so w were off to a good start.  Matty talked about the farm and the brewery and doing things (brewing, food, service) with intention.  We reminisce about the Nuit Belge festival and how much we enjoy their Classic Saison.

John Holl - All About Beer & Steal This Beer

Fresh off his Lager Panel at Little Beer Fest beer journalist John Holl joined us to chat.  When asked if we were in a lager moment John pauses to remind us that lagers have been king in America for many years, and craft lager is catching up.  We also discuss the rise of hazy IPAs and how it coincides with the popularity of Instagram and other photo and video sites where image is more important than quality.  On the quality note, many craft brewers are focusing on classic European and German lagers where nuance is more important than all that juice.

You can hear more from John, and Augie Carton, on the Steal This Beer podcast.

Lisa Allen - Heater Allen

Heater Allen was an early entry into craft lager with their brewery coming up on 15 years.  Their taproom is currently undergoing renovations and will soon feature beers from a fun side project, Gold Dot Beer - a joint venture with Wayfinder Beer's Kevin Davey, the creator of the Cold IPA.  Gold Dot will bring IPAs and English styles to the taproom.  Lisa also shares the unique aspects of brewing beer in Wine Country as we ask about wine barrels and grape must in beers.

Augie Carton - Carton Brewing & Steal This Beer

Chatting with Augie Carton was a great way to wrap up the show.  He now holds the record for the most swear words in a segment.  We should ge

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Chapters

• 0:00 Augie Carton with Carton Brewing
• 2:05 Welcome to Little Beer Fest
• 2:32 Blackberry Farm Brewery with Matty Hargrove
• 13:29 This generation's John Holl
• 16:54 A craft lager moment?
• 30:23 Lisa Allen with Heater Allen and Gold Dot Beer
• 45:39 New Jersey's crazy alcohol laws

Transcript

Announcer - 00:00:10:

Open up a tab, grab a seat, and pour a pint. It's time for the Beer Guys Radio Show.


Announcer - 00:00:10:

You want free beer, go to the brewery, dedicated to the art, science, and enjoyment of craft beer. Yeah. What's wrong with the beer we got now? Here are your hosts, Tim Dennis and Brian Hewitt.


Tim - 00:00:29:

Welcome to the Beer Guys Radio Show. We are broadcasting from Little Beer Fest in beautiful downtown Duluth, Georgia. I am Tim Dennis. With me, as always, my good friend and co host, Brian Hewitt.


Brian Hewitt - 00:00:41:

Hey, Tim. So, yes, we're joined right now by Matty Hargrove and is your title regional sales manager. I got that from your website.


Matty Hargrove - 00:00:49:

It is.


Brian Hewitt - 00:00:50:

Okay. All right. So of Blackberry Farm, singular, Brewery Farm.


Tim Dennis - 00:00:54:

That is right.


Matty Hargrove - 00:00:54:

Blackberry Farm.


Brian Hewitt - 00:00:55:

It's big, but one very large farm. Not a multi, large farm.


Brian Hewitt - 00:00:59:

Okay. Yeah. And we're going to see what's going on with Blackberry Farm.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:02:

Absolutely. Matty, thanks for joining us. Cheers. We appreciate it. And you know what Matty did, and he's now 300. This will be episode 363. Brian.


Brian Hewitt - 00:01:11:

Yes, 363.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:12:

Matty is unquestionably my favorite guest we've.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:15:

Ever had on the show.


Brian Hewitt - 00:01:16:

I have a good idea why.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:17:

Yeah. He brought us Bloody Marys.


Matty Hargrove - 00:01:19:

I strive.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:20:

He brought us Bloody Marys. We're in it. Cheers, guys. Cheers. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers. We got cheers. Bloody Marys here. We're having a good time with it. And you all real quick, this is kind of a transitional show for us, because as we announced last week, that was the last week recorded in the Beer Guys Radio studios. We're moving. We're no longer on the radio. We are podcasts only now. We'll have a new format starting next week. But for now, this is going to be a podcast show. We can go wild if we want to. We can. Yeah.


Matty Hargrove - 00:01:49:

But we're going to keep it let's get wild.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:51:

We're going to keep it fairly tame. We're a family friendly alcohol show.


Brian Hewitt - 00:01:56:

We are. Until we have a few more of these bloody marriages.


Tim Dennis - 00:01:58:

Yeah. Then it gets crazy.


Matty Hargrove - 00:01:59:

I'll be right back.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:00:

Crazy.


Brian Hewitt - 00:02:01:

He's on another mission.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:03:

Yeah, but this is it. Matty little beer fest. So have you been to this fest before?


Matty Hargrove - 00:02:08:

I have. This is the Brewers Fest. It is what the brewers want to come to. Lucas Todd di Mateo curates an amazing time, both with Little Beer and with Les Bon.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:22:

Les Bon. Did you come for Les Bon?


Brian Hewitt - 00:02:25:

Yeah.


Matty Hargrove - 00:02:26:

Our flagship beer is a Saison.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:27:

Yes, that's right.


Matty Hargrove - 00:02:28:

So why would not we would not be here.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:30:

Yeah, I figured that you would. Classic Saison.


Matty Hargrove - 00:02:33:

Classic Saison.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:33:

Yes. You know what?


Brian Hewitt - 00:02:36:

When our homebrew stays on and when we stop doing homebrew, we got busy.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:41:

Yeah.


Brian Hewitt - 00:02:42:

Here's the thing. You don't need to because your Saison and not to pat ourselves on the back too much, almost identical.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:49:

Very similar.


Brian Hewitt - 00:02:50:

Very similar. So when I drink that, I'm like, oh, my goodness, I never have to brew a Saison again.


Matty Hargrove - 00:02:54:

Yeah, well, I need to try your Saison.


John Holl - 00:02:56:

Yeah.


Tim Dennis - 00:02:56:

You know what? I think there's one bottle left in existence right now because we haven't brooded in probably seven years.


Matty Hargrove - 00:03:03:

Well, how far away do you live, man?


Tim Dennis - 00:03:04:

40 miles.


Matty Hargrove - 00:03:08:

You got many miles from here.


Tim Dennis - 00:03:09:

So you got one bottle, and we can do this.


Brian Hewitt - 00:03:11:

This is 40 miles in Atlanta. So that's like 3 hours away.


John Holl - 00:03:14:

Yeah, 3 hours.


Tim Dennis - 00:03:16:

That's for fix it. Exactly. Oh. Matty Blackberry Farm, as you mentioned, flagship, is a classic Saison. We've got actually, a can of your white L, a Belgian style wheat. I'm going to open that up right now so we can get that to enjoy why we converse. There we go.


Brian Hewitt - 00:03:34:

Is that your lowest ABV offering here?


Matty Hargrove - 00:03:38:

No, I think our German pilsner is a little lower.


Tim Dennis - 00:03:41:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:03:41:

It's 5%, this beer. When we moved the pilsner year round, we needed a spring seasonal. And our amazing production manager, Tim, has been brewing this beer for his wife for probably 20 years.


Tim Dennis - 00:03:58:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:03:58:

And he's like, hey, what if we do our white El? And we were all in agreement, like, yeah, needs to happen.


Tim Dennis - 00:04:06:

One thing I instantly notice when I pour this, when I see white ale, I'm expecting some haziness to it. And this one's crystal clear.


Matty Hargrove - 00:04:14:

Crystal clear. We don't filter our beer. Every beer of ours, it does its own thing. It does its own thing.


Tim Dennis - 00:04:25:

It does its own thing, man.


Matty Hargrove - 00:04:26:

Yeah, like living, breathing animal.


Tim Dennis - 00:04:28:

Yeah.


Matty Hargrove - 00:04:28:

No filters. That's what your liver is for.


Brian Hewitt - 00:04:32:

Exactly. It's a beautiful beer. Nice, fine bubbles on it.


Matty Hargrove - 00:04:38:

It's coriander, pink peppercorn, lemongrass, and some orange zest.


Brian Hewitt - 00:04:46:

It's called a white ales. It's kind of like a whit beer.


Matty Hargrove - 00:04:49:

Or Belgian inspired whitmeer. This is in our tried and true series. We want the style to speak for itself. So we do a great IPA, we do a great Pilsner, and they're all called BFE. Pilsner, IPA and white ale.


Brian Hewitt - 00:05:06:

Do you use the same yeast to brew this as, you know, the classic Say no.


Tim Dennis - 00:05:09:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:05:09:

I would never adulterate that.


Tim Dennis - 00:05:11:

Okay. How dare you ask? I know. I just dare. You know what?


Brian Hewitt - 00:05:15:

Here's the thing. A lot of breweries will just say, hey, you know what? This is our house. Yeast nearly got the table flipped on us.


Tim Dennis - 00:05:22:

It would be justified.


Matty Hargrove - 00:05:23:

I had an amazing I earned it amazing discussion with Dave from Brick Store last night. And it's about intention. Intentional beer food service. That's what you do.


Brian Hewitt - 00:05:39:

That's what we do.


Matty Hargrove - 00:05:42:

We put our hearts and souls into that intention.


Tim Dennis - 00:05:46:

Now, something I want to throw in real quick as we move along here. So Blackberry Farm Brewery, there is an actual large farm resort. Would that be the right word for it?


Matty Hargrove - 00:05:58:

Totally.


Tim Dennis - 00:05:59:

Fairly deluxe, correct?


Matty Hargrove - 00:06:02:

Yes, beyond fairly. It's an amazing space in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains between Blackberry Farm and Blackberry Mountain. About 11,000 acres. It's it's a place where you go for hospitality. Great food, great beer, great wine to enjoy yourself. There's nothing like it in the world.


Brian Hewitt - 00:06:31:

Is that walland?


Matty Hargrove - 00:06:32:

Walland, Tennessee?


Tim Dennis - 00:06:33:

Yes.


Matty Hargrove - 00:06:34:

So Walland is halfway between Maryville, Tennessee and Townsend on the Foothills Parkway, the Lamar Alexander Parkway. And there's nothing like it in the world.


Brian Hewitt - 00:06:46:

I'm such a geek that I remember the old bottle saying, Wallen, Tennessee, and the new classic Saison saying, Maryville, Tennessee. So you moved and opened up a tap room that I didn't even realize.


Matty Hargrove - 00:06:57:

Our country boys, we call it marvel marbles in your mouth.


Tim Dennis - 00:07:04:

Yeah.


Matty Hargrove - 00:07:04:

So we started our pilot breweries in the dairy barn at Blackberry. We still brew beer there, but we needed to have a bigger space for production. And Blackberry, as beautiful and exquisite as it is, is located down a very rural Tennessee road. And we needed something that was more accessible for big trucks to haul our beer out. And our leadership definitely chose to move 20 minutes from the farm for our production facility.


Tim Dennis - 00:07:40:

I think it's interesting putting the elite resorts and places like that. My mom's side of the family is from a little town called White Sulfur Springs, West Virginia.


Matty Hargrove - 00:07:51:

And there has been there.


Tim Dennis - 00:07:52:

The Greenbriar is in white Sulfur Springs. And it's like, look, no hate for White Sulfur Springs, but it's a podunk Hillbilly town. Or actually, I can't say that now. It's been a long time since I've been there, but it's gotten fancy.


Brian Hewitt - 00:08:04:

I know what this was from there.


Tim Dennis - 00:08:05:

But then you've got the Greenbriar there, which is just a very it's a very old south hotel. Golf and white glove treatment and all that, but other than that, it's just rural West Virginia.


Brian Hewitt - 00:08:17:

Is that the location of the secret.


Tim Dennis - 00:08:19:

Secret bunker under the Greenbriar?


Brian Hewitt - 00:08:21:

Right. Yeah.


Matty Hargrove - 00:08:24:

I'm all in on Hillbillies because I'm one of them.


Tim Dennis - 00:08:27:

See, that's what I'm 50% hillbilly and 50% redneck by my jeans here, so whatever.


Matty Hargrove - 00:08:33:

Raise Hell. Praise Dale.


Tim Dennis - 00:08:34:

There you go. Right? Yes, absolutely. Now, another festival kind of going back. They haven't been in Atlanta in a few years. Brian, what was that festival we went to that was like the dress up Saison and nice foods event? There were oysters and pomona beerico and NUI belch.


Brian Hewitt - 00:08:54:

NUI belch.


Tim Dennis - 00:08:54:

Did you ever come for Newie Belch?


Matty Hargrove - 00:08:56:

Love NUI, Belgium. My dear friend Matt Leff with Rhizome Productions. Took it around the south, had it in New Orleans, had it in Atlanta, Charleston and Nashville. Rhizomes based in Nashville, right. I think it was before its time.


Tim Dennis - 00:09:16:

I would agree.


Matty Hargrove - 00:09:17:

I loved it to have Belgian inspired beers. I mean, hell, our flagship beers Saison.


Brian Hewitt - 00:09:25:

It's perfectly fitted for us and great food pairings together.


Matty Hargrove - 00:09:29:

When you have chefs from the local markets want a pair with Belgian inspired beers, it was gorgeous, but it was before its time. Kind of like all the restaurants that were farm to table before farm to table was hip.


Tim Dennis - 00:09:43:

Right.


Matty Hargrove - 00:09:44:

Well, that's New Belgium was the same way. And I hope it comes back. I hope they bring it back. Duluth would be a fantastic place to have it.


Brian Hewitt - 00:09:52:

Yeah, that would be great.


Tim Dennis - 00:09:53:

This really is a great place for a festival and that's I don't get over here. Actually, when I come over here, it's for good word or good word related events there. So we come over, have a good time with it. But the newie Bells was nice. You dressed up a little bit for it. Nice small plate samplings from some high end great chef and the food there and all that, it was great because.


Matty Hargrove - 00:10:15:

The chefs resonated with the intention of it. I'm always going to go back to intention.


Brian Hewitt - 00:10:21:

I sense a theme.


Matty Hargrove - 00:10:22:

Yes, let's theme on. They loved pairing great food with great beer, and I think it was five years for its time.


Brian Hewitt - 00:10:33:

So one thing I would really like to ask you about to talk about the Camposecco. Camposecco, is that right? We need to talk about that a little bit. Like, we don't have a ton of time, but a coffee lager, right? And you brought that here?


Tim Dennis - 00:10:47:

Yes, that's right. You don't polarize this one, do you?


Matty Hargrove - 00:10:51:

It's polarizing.


Tim Dennis - 00:10:52:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:10:52:

It's well made. We make great beer. It's not to my taste, but that's not what rules the day.


Brian Hewitt - 00:10:59:

Does it need more coffee or what? Would you like more about it if.


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:05:

It were changed for me? Why mess with a great thing?


Brian Hewitt - 00:11:10:

Okay. Don't put the coffee in it at all.


Tim Dennis - 00:11:12:

But it's great.


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:13:

It's a great beer. It's well made. It's intentioned because our team wanted to do it, and I'm all about that. It just doesn't resonate for me.


Brian Hewitt - 00:11:24:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:24:

But it's fantastic. And I'll probably have another one here in about 20 minutes.


Tim Dennis - 00:11:29:

So, Matty, one more question for you. Being there in the hills of Tennessee, do you guys do any spontaneous beers up there? Capture something from the hills?


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:39:

Several years ago, we had yeast collector. He's now with Carolina Barrenhouse.


John Holl - 00:11:47:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:47:

Good dude who captured some yeast. If you want to talk about yeast, jeff Mello from Bootleg biology is around here.


Tim Dennis - 00:11:55:

Okay.


Matty Hargrove - 00:11:56:

And captures all of the goodness around Tennessee, at least in Nashville. His beer that he captured this yeast with Brandon Jones from Yazoo and Bracelet Funk Locale is a local yeast. That's what I love. What the industry is coming back to is we're using over 50% Tennessee malt, unfortunately. Unfortunately, we send it to North Carolina to be malted. Hopefully there'll be a malt stir that will rise up in Tennessee, and we can make it a little more economical and echo go all local there.


Tim Dennis - 00:12:34:

Do you send to Riverband?


Matty Hargrove - 00:12:36:

We work with Riverbend. They're great, Carolina. They're fantastic as well. But, yeah, you should have Jonesy on here from his locale.


Tim Dennis - 00:12:45:

We'll have to catch up with him. That'd be a fun topic. He's great.


Matty Hargrove - 00:12:47:

Yeah. He's embrace the funk, milk the funk. He's the guy.


John Holl - 00:12:53:

He's awesome.


Tim Dennis - 00:12:54:

Well, Matty, thank you so much for sharing beers and Bloody Marys and your info with us. If people want to find out what is going on with Blackberry Farm Brewery, where's going to be the best place for them to do that?


Matty Hargrove - 00:13:04:

Blackberryfarmbrewery.com easy enough.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:07:

Thanks so much.


Matty Hargrove - 00:13:08:

We appreciate it.


Brian Hewitt - 00:13:09:

Cheers.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:09:

Let's go. You are listening to the Beer Guys Radio Show live from Little Beer Fest and we will be right back.


Brian Hewitt - 00:13:16:

Welcome back to the Beer Guys Radio Show. Remember, all episodes are available on demand. So if you missed the broadcast and I know you did, get the podcast. Beer Guys Radio is available on all popular and unpopular podcasting apps. Now let's get back to the show.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:29:

We are back to the show. We have the one, the only, John Hall with us. John, thank you for joining us, sir.


John Hall - 00:13:36:

I got to correct you immediately.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:38:

Tell me.


John Hall - 00:13:38:

My dad is also John Hall. Okay, I'm not the one.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:41:

The only okay. The one. The two. Yeah, the two. John Hall.


John Hall - 00:13:46:

The old man still around and I'm grateful for that. And my grandfather is also John Hall. I'm actually seven.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:54:

Oh my gosh.


John Hall - 00:13:55:

I can see John Hall. And then it's allegedly going to end.


Tim Dennis - 00:13:59:

With me, which I'm not the only okay.


John Hall - 00:14:02:

I have a daughter and she's lovely and she's wonderful, but it'd be weird to name her John. But not impossible. Not impossible.


Tim Dennis - 00:14:10:

Absolutely.


John Hall - 00:14:10:

But I feel like there'd be screaming matches in high school if you've ruined my life. Yeah. It becomes a Johnny Cash song. Exactly.


Tim Dennis - 00:14:20:

John, you have your irons and a lot of fires here. How do you introduce yourself? John Hall?


John Hall - 00:14:27:

I'm a renaissance man. I'm a journalist who covers the beer industry, and I'm the editor of all about beer.


Tim Dennis - 00:14:32:

Perfect.


John Hall - 00:14:33:

Awesome.


Tim Dennis - 00:14:34:

Sounds good to us. John. We're at Little Beer Fest in Dulce, Georgia. You just had a logger panel as.


John Hall - 00:14:39:

Charming as all getting, isn't it?


Tim Dennis - 00:14:41:

It is. It really is.


John Hall - 00:14:42:

Like I just I can't get over it. Feels like Maybury meets The Truman Show. Like none of it does.


Brian Hewitt - 00:14:48:

This is very Truman Show.


John Hall - 00:14:50:

Yeah, that's factual, too.


Brian Hewitt - 00:14:52:

In a good way.


John Hall - 00:14:53:

No, in a good way. It's not like manipulating a young man's life from birth on.


Brian Hewitt - 00:14:58:

It could be we're just not aware of it. We'll just carry on with it being.


John Hall - 00:15:01:

Anyway, I'm sorry, we're Little Beers.


Tim Dennis - 00:15:03:

We're at Little Beer. You just held a logger panel. We didn't get to join it. We were attending to you guys were.


John Hall - 00:15:09:

On and you guys were on the air.


Tim Dennis - 00:15:10:

How'd the Lager panel go?


John Hall - 00:15:11:

Really well. I was fortunate to sit down with Lisa Allen from Heater Allen and Ashley Carter from Beerstot and Jeff Bagby from Bagby Beer and Eric Larkin from Cohesion. Todd Di Mateo, who puts on this festival from Goodword, asked me to come down and do a panel that could be broadcast out over the speakers in front of everybody and to add some educational value, which I was really confused as to why he asked me to do that. But I was grateful for the opportunity. And having those four lager brewers up there to really talk about where the state of loggers is right now was fascinating to me because it is so rooted in tradition, right? And as they were talking, I'm looking out over all these tents and thinking about everything that's being poured here. It really sort of gelled for me because there's a lot of festivals that exist right now, right? And you guys know this, where it's what's the Hype beer? Or what is the 12% imperial stout with a vanilla from a variety that you've never heard of before with £90 of coconut and all of that kind of thing. And those are good for little sips and it's kind of fun to tick off if that's what you do on untapped and all that kind of thing. But here that everybody is bringing what, it's like 5% or less, four and a half percent or less is fascinating to me. And that it's all properly done lagers, properly done english ales, small, little pale ales. And it's such a return to when I first started covering the beer industry of these are the beers that I came up on. And to see people who are just excited to be here and then hear from brewers that are passionate about making it, it's a real privilege. It's a lot of fun.


Tim Dennis - 00:16:54:

So, you know, John, something probably for five years now, I've been saying loggers are the next thing, loggers are the next hot thing. And it's something if you keep saying it long enough, there's a chance you're going to hit it. But we are in a lager moment here, would you agree?


John Hall - 00:17:09:

So Ashley Carter from Beerstat, who gets that question a lot, likes to argue that lager has been on 150 year winning streak. And she's not wrong. When you remove craft beer from the equation, the best selling beers in America, hands down, are lagers and pilsners. So the fact that now we have small brewers making them, yeah, the chance to drink local lager has never been better. But beerstot and all those other breweries that I had on, and everybody else who's making a quality lager here is never going to compete on the scale of anheuser bush or Molson cores or any of the other breweries that are heineken that are out there making some big stuff. But I think it's a cool chance to showcase historic beer styles and loggers to go beyond the American light lager that is sex in a canoe kind of thing. Being at this point where we can have fun little Vienna lagers or traditional helles where the decoction mashing is happening. Yeah, that's where we are right now. And brewers are using locally harvested malt like they're doing that whole thing. There's new hop varietals that are briefing into some lagers, but also it's a chance to give us a look back at historical hop varieties that built these styles. So, yeah, I'm not trying to go against your premise here, because I hear you. Sure, there are so many great loggers that are being made, but I think you have to seek them out. They're not readily available.


Brian Hewitt - 00:18:42:

Are people yet aware of the incredible variety there is in lager. I think people say logger, and they.


John Hall - 00:18:49:

Think Budweiser, because Bud has done a really good job driving that home. But no, I think that there's, what, 91, 9200 breweries in the country right now. Not all of them should be making loggers. Not even a quarter of them should be making loggers because they're not going to do them well. And so the ones that are doing them with intention, the ones that are doing them with historic accuracy, the ones that are doing them in an uncompromising way are the ones that are here today and the ones that deserve a closer look. But for a long time, right when you think about when I first started covering the beer industry, I'd be sitting at a bar and I'd be drinking a Hayfavis or a Red Ale or this is our blonde, or whatever, and there wasn't like, a lot to choose from. Invariably, somebody would come in, sit down at the bar, and be like, well, I only drink Miller Light, so what do you got? And they'd give them a poorly made blondale. And that was a customer that was then lost for life kind of thing. And I think that if you're fortunate to live near a good word or a halfway crooks or a beer stot or a Heater Allen and you can go down the street or Sacred Profane up in Maine now and get a really well made lager and know that you're supporting the business and it tastes like what you're familiar with with Bud Miller, cores, et cetera. That's a great thing. And that's what we need more of.


Tim Dennis - 00:20:11:

So, John, talking to that, as I talk around, I've always said, and I think everybody knows this, but your perception is your reality kind of thing. All right, being in Atlanta, we do have halfway crooks in Goodword. You'd nailed, in my opinion, our two best. These guys, for sure. Lager game is excellent. Can compete with all the other names we've thrown out here. We also have Arches brewing down in Hayfield that does some good stuff. Tucker tucker Brewing does some good loggers round trip.


Brian Hewitt - 00:20:41:

That's right. Good lagers.


Tim Dennis - 00:20:42:

Yeah, they're really cool beers, too.


Tim Dennis - 00:20:45:

So we've got half a dozen ish in Atlanta. So my perception is loggers are pretty strong on the crafters scene originally, but I talk to people in other areas, and I'll say even some of the brewers. How's the logger seen in your area? They're like, as you're seeing around out there, do we still have places that just haven't gone on the craft lager bandwagon yet? Yeah.


John Hall - 00:21:09:

But I'd also argue that there are lager lovers that will go to all of those breweries that you just named, but 99% of the lager drinkers in the metro Atlanta area are going to their publics and they're picking up a twelve pack of Bud heavy. Or they're picking up a twelve pack of something that is priced in a way that they think is economical for them. So the fact that to back up, right. It was fascinating. So yesterday, I got into town on Thursday. Yesterday was Friday. Today Saturday, obviously. And I picked up Augie Carton, who I host a podcast with called Steal the Spear. And Augie flew in from Jersey, and I got stuck in traffic. So I said, all right, rather than me going to the airport, go to Halfway Crooks. And he's like, what is it? And I was just like, just go there and I'll meet you there. And I got there and he showed up, and he's like, oh, I understand why we came here. And every brewer that had just flown into town, that was their first stop before they went to Brick Store.


Tim Dennis - 00:22:16:

Sure.


John Hall - 00:22:16:

And it shows you what brewers want to drink and what they're excited to drink and what they're excited to go after. Nobody was showing up at, like, whoever, sal's House of Hazy IPA, whatever that is, in Atlanta. I don't know what that brewery is, because that's not what somebody would tell me to go to. But everybody was going to Halfway Crooks, and Bob Townsend from the AJC took me there the last time, and so I was happy to go back there again this time. And that's what brewers want to drink. And I think that brewers are now trying to find ways of making loggers of exceptional quality, but then trying to communicate that to their drinkers of I know you want vanilla, or I know you think you want citru. Mosaic or I know you think you want, but there's something to be said for cracking open three lagers at the end of the day of four and a half percent and feeling really good about it and tasting some nuance and some subtlety and it's beer flavored beer. And that's what these guys want to get back to.


Brian Hewitt - 00:23:13:

I know how to change people's minds. All I need to do is experience a cult service. Honestly, after that, I'm like, it was a style that was kind of not really on my radar. I had a cold service. Like, I just I just want to go to town.


Tim Dennis - 00:23:26:

It's halfway crooks.


Tim Dennis - 00:23:26:

Halfway Crooks? Yeah. Their farina is actually pouring here today, which is what they yeah, which is what they pour. So Brick Store, pub and halfway crooks do cole service occasion.


John Hall - 00:23:36:

That's awesome. And I mean, there are breweries. I mean, Notch does it up in Salem, Massachusetts. There's a few other breweries that I know have done it. They have two locations brighton and Salem. But yeah, there's a few other Dovetail does it, obviously, but I like that. And it's the theater of beer, right. I once heard a story that was actually disproven afterwards, but in the very early days, the way the story was told to me was that when Woodmer brothers first started out in Portland, Oregon, that they would have their sales rep go out to a bar and buy rounds of Woodmer Hayfavis. Lemon in the glass. Nice. Hayfavis and glass. And walk through the bar, pay the server to do a couple of laps around, and everybody be like, oh, what is that? And then they'd see their sales increase. And I told that story to Curtin Rob Widmer once, where it was a really brilliant marketing plan. And it's like, I wish that was a true story because we would have probably sold a lot more beer early on.


Brian Hewitt - 00:24:34:

Was that maybe Blue Moon that did that?


Tim Dennis - 00:24:35:

Because I've seen that he said he.


John Hall - 00:24:38:

Actually but I mean, Whitmer was around much more earlier and the story is told to me as Widmer, and I'm sure the best advertisement Guinness can do is a Guinness being poured next to you at the bar and the theater of the Nitro porn. And so, yeah, I think that if there are ways of making beers look visually appealing, that's going to go a long way as well. And culture certainly does that. But Garrett Oliver of Brooklyn Brewery once said that Hazy IPA was made for the Instagram age because it had that sort of mystique and that cloudiness, and you couldn't quite figure out what it was, and it didn't look like beer in the glass. And there was this whole thing that people would go, I've taken how many pictures of my beer today? Kind of thing. Right. But when Hazy IPA came up was the same time as Instagram. And I think that that did help drive a lot of those beers and the popularity of a lot of those beers with younger drinkers. But now we're at the point where I think looking around mercifully, most everybody here is younger than the three, like four of us sitting here at this table right now, probably. And they're excited to be here and excited to be drinking this beer, which makes me feel good about getting back to basics and rebuilding the building blocks of beer.


Tim Dennis - 00:25:57:

Yeah. We don't see people boss pouring their loggers into a flower vase. What is it for? Their boss pour it's all the way to the top man overflowing the glass. The Liquid needs to be all the way up there completely. Even I am so far from being cool.


Brian Hewitt - 00:26:14:

They called it the man poor or the boss. It was a whole thing. It was an instagram.


Tim Dennis - 00:26:19:

Like Top Gun, maybe.


Tim Dennis - 00:26:22:

I don't actually know.


Brian Hewitt - 00:26:25:

Yeah, it was an ice man, right?


Tim Dennis - 00:26:26:

I think so, yeah.


Brian Hewitt - 00:26:27:

Anyway, no, I don't know where the name comes from. I just know there were two names the boss poor iceman. But the idea of hazy, juicy mystery, that ties in well with Instagram, and I can see why that would be popular, but I like to see a return. I see more and more breweries coming up that are we're going to do traditional German brews. We're going to do nothing but loggers, that sort of thing. And it's a model that's working for beer with intent.


John Hall - 00:26:53:

It's beer with intent. These are the beers that the owner, brewers want to be making because they're passionate about it, and it shows in the glass as opposed to places that are opening up and being like, well, the market says I really need three kettle sours and four different hazy IPAs. And it's like, yeah, but everybody else does. And unless you're going to make them better than the best ones that are out there or can price them competitively, like what Sierra is doing with Hazy little thing right now, why are you doing it? And there's not a good answer that I've gotten from brewers about it, and I think we need more beer with intent. As a writer, with what I look.


Tim Dennis - 00:27:29:

For, isn't that a theme? Because wasn't Blackberry Farm he was talking about intent.


John Hall - 00:27:35:

Hargrove and I had this conversation yesterday, and it's been rattling around a month.


Brian Hewitt - 00:27:39:

Okay, good start with intent.


Tim Dennis - 00:27:40:

John, we appreciate you joining us.


John Hall - 00:27:42:

Thanks.


Tim Dennis - 00:27:42:

You know what I want to say real quick, john has, is this your most recent book?


John Hall - 00:27:46:

It is the most recent book.


Tim Dennis - 00:27:47:

The craft brewery cookbook. This is full of recipes from brewers and their beers and lots of good stuff to try.


John Hall - 00:27:54:

Good beer with good food. Go.


Tim Dennis - 00:27:55:

Good beer, good food. Check it out. If people want to follow along with everything else that's going on with you, what's the best place to do that?


John Hall - 00:28:01:

All about beer. Just go to all about beer on Instagram and Twitter. And on Facebook. I think we're all about Beer magazine, and we're easy to find and join the conversation. Tell us what you're drinking and what we should be writing about, because that's what we care about.


Tim Dennis - 00:28:15:

Awesome. Sounds good, man. Thank you so much. You're listening to the Beer Guys Radio Show. We're going to take a break, and we'll be right back.


Lisa Allen - 00:28:22:

Have you been to the nest Kennesaw yet? Hi, I'm Adam, owner of The Nest in historic downtown Kennesaw, and I want to personally invite you to visit us with the best damn barbecue in town. 48 taps of always rotating craft beers, a dog friendly patio, all in two conjoined historical homes. We know there's something for you at the nest. Kennesaw. Find us at The nestkennesaw.com to start drooling over that menu. Or go ahead and grab your friends, your family, or just yourself and come on in for a pint. The Nest Kennesaw can't wait to have you at our table.


Tim Dennis - 00:28:52:

It's Brian and Tim. The Beer Guys. If you're like us no. Lunch or dinner is complete without a pint or two of craft beer, which.


Brian Hewitt - 00:28:58:

Is why Truck and tap in downtown Woodstock, Alfreda, and Duluth are always on our list. Tim, why do they call it truck and tap?


Tim Dennis - 00:29:06:

Well, the tap part is easy, Brian. They've got 18 of them.


Brian Hewitt - 00:29:08:

As for the truck part, that's where it gets interesting. Truck and Tap features your favorite Atlanta area food trucks, so you're getting a different menu every day.


Tim Dennis - 00:29:16:

Truck and Tap in downtown Woodstock, Alpharetta and Duluth.


Brian Hewitt - 00:29:19:

Truckandtap.com. Let them know that the Beer Guys sent you. Welcome back to the Beer Guys Radio Show. If you enjoy the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Just go to Patreon.com Beer Guys patrons get cool, perks like Beer Guys swag commercial free episodes and access to our brand new Discord server. Now let's get back to the show.


Tim Dennis - 00:29:36:

Back to the show. Little Beer Fest, Duluth, Georgia. All of the awesome little beers. Loggers from around the world, Brian.


Brian Hewitt - 00:29:45:

Indeed.


Tim Dennis - 00:29:45:

Even from out in your neck of the woods.


Brian Hewitt - 00:29:47:

Out my neck of the woods?


Tim Dennis - 00:29:48:

I see Austria.


Brian Hewitt - 00:29:49:

Like Eggenberg is here. Is that Austria?


Tim Dennis - 00:29:52:

Maybe. Who knows? No one knows. It's unknowable right now. An awesome lager brewery from out in Oregon. We have Lisa Allen with Heater Allen with us. Thank you so much for joining us.


Augie Carton - 00:30:04:

Yeah, thanks for having me on.


Tim Dennis - 00:30:06:

Absolutely. We love your beers. When we can get them, of course, way out here in the Atlanta area. But we're Pilsner, Lager fans of all shapes and sizes. So really looking forward to chatting with you here about Loggers.


Brian Hewitt - 00:30:21:

Yes, loggers, indeed. You've got a lot happening with Loggers in addition to Peter Allen, which is here presently. You've got a side project you're working on, too, right?


Augie Carton - 00:30:31:

Yeah, we do. So my partner Kevin, formerly of Wayfinder Beer, he and I actually purchased Peter Allen, and we are.


Tim Dennis - 00:30:44:

Your beer is being stolen, Lisa. Creature covers coming in here, I was.


Augie Carton - 00:30:51:

Like, who is that anyway? Yeah, so we're still going to be making the Heater Allen beer, but we also are starting our own brand called Gold Dot Beer, also specializing in Lagers. We'll also probably make IPAs, maybe English styles eventually. Kind of branching out just slightly from what Heater Allen does. But, yeah, still making the Heater Allen brand as well. And, yeah, we're in the middle of a seller expansion, so that's pretty exciting.


Tim Dennis - 00:31:18:

So I have to admit, with Heater Allen, I've followed you a lot. Your Pilsner really is the one I've had the most, and that's what I look at. But do you just focus on loggers with Heater Allen?


Augie Carton - 00:31:29:

We do seasonally. We make a Kolsch style. So that's actually in tank right now. We kind of release it late spring. Well, actually early spring, I guess it would be.


John Holl - 00:31:46:

Hard to keep.


Augie Carton - 00:31:47:

We'll probably release it, like, in mid May or so. And then we do, like, a Bavarian sal half as well. We've done an alt beer and stuff, but yeah, mostly loggers. So any ales that we do are kind of in the kind of German realm.


Tim Dennis - 00:32:04:

And you were doing loggers in that how long has Peter Allen been doing this? Like 15 years now.


Augie Carton - 00:32:09:

Yeah, actually it'll be 16 in May.


Tim Dennis - 00:32:11:

Okay.


Augie Carton - 00:32:12:

So yeah, a long time.


Tim Dennis - 00:32:14:

So that was before craft lager was.


John Holl - 00:32:16:

Cool, so to speak, right?


Tim Dennis - 00:32:18:

Yeah, that was a big jump to take at the time. What made you decide to go that route?


Augie Carton - 00:32:24:

So the brewery was started by my dad, Rick Allen, in 2007, and he kind of was looking at kind of the market and everyone's just making IPAs. And what he really wanted to drink was a crisp, refreshing lager. And so he started kind of making beer and just we're out in wine country in McMinnville, so he has a few friends that own wineries. He started kind of making beer for them and then he was convinced by those winery folks that are just like, you have to go commercial with us because no one's doing it. And he actually kind of started on a nanosystem and was trying to see if it was commercially viable to do just loggers and then obviously we're still around.


Tim Dennis - 00:33:13:

Well, that's Brian was mentioning because of going to college out there, he kept saying that wasn't beer country. That's wine country.


Augie Carton - 00:33:20:

Yeah, exactly. It still is. We actually have now that we have four breweries in McMinnville as well as one gluten free brewery. So five total. And yeah, we have excellent water out there, very good water to make beer with. It's super consistent because McMinnville owns its water source. And so we don't get a lot of people in large cities like PH will kind of change and stuff like that based on there's a lot of rainfall or if they have to get it from a different source in McMinnville, we don't have that. So it's really nice and consistent and great to make beer with.


Brian Hewitt - 00:34:03:

So are you finding a lot of people I assume there's still a lot of wine tourism there because when I was there, that was kind of we had people coming down from Portland and occasionally people coming up from California to check out wine country, the Willamette Valley. Do you find a lot of wine people coming in to try out your beers at your tap room? I guess it's not open right now.


Augie Carton - 00:34:21:

But when it was open, yeah, I mean, you definitely get the people that after a day of going out and tasting wine, come in and they want something different. And, yeah, we're in the middle of kind of remodeling redoing our tap room. And we do want to have wine available as well. So once we open back up, of course, we'll be featuring the Heater Allen and the Gold Dot beers, but we'll also have some great wine on tap as well. But, yeah, McMinnville is really. We have this great group, hospitality group, visit McMinnville Tourism Board, whatever you want to call it. And they're doing a great job at promoting the city and getting people to come out. And so we're kind of betting on getting those tourists to come in as well as locals. Our local population is really important, too, and people that live in McMinnville really want to support McMinnville businesses and especially like we've been around for a long time.


Tim Dennis - 00:35:28:

Yeah, 15 years. That's so important to get your city kind of bought into things. And that's a great example is here where we are right now in Duluth.


John Holl - 00:35:36:

Goodwood.


Tim Dennis - 00:35:37:

I've been in the Atlanta area 20 ish years, and when I moved here, Duluth, there was nothing here. No one came to Duluth. And then they've revitalized this square here that we're on right now, if you all could see it. I mean, just a gorgeous there's a big bell tower over the festival center, a clock tower.


Brian Hewitt - 00:35:55:

It's very scenic, a huge space.


Tim Dennis - 00:35:56:

It's just really nice here.


Augie Carton - 00:35:58:

It's beautiful.


Tim Dennis - 00:35:58:

And then we have the place. Like, where goodworth? Is there's barbecue, there's nachos, there's biscuits. It's just a really cool spot. And Duluth has been very good. And we're seeing a lot more cities that are embracing craft beer as part of their identity, kind of. This is what we do here. I live in Woodstock, Georgia. Probably doesn't mean a lot to people.


Brian Hewitt - 00:36:19:

But you have the Anchor Brewery there.


Tim Dennis - 00:36:21:

But we have reformation brewing. Is there? Jekyll Brewing just opened up there. Our mayor was formerly a House representative. That helped push a lot of beer bills here. So the city is very friendly to craft beer, and it's helped a lot people come down and have a drink, and then there's a restaurant that opens up next to them. Then this happens. And then you've got a thriving downtown, a thriving area that people want to come and hang out and have a logger.


Augie Carton - 00:36:47:

Yeah, exactly.


Brian Hewitt - 00:36:48:

One of the things I was wondering because of all the wine influence there, what's the big crossover beer like this Lager Wise? Is there one that people just appeals more to wine drinkers than other styles, perhaps?


Augie Carton - 00:37:00:

I mean, I definitely think our Pills, which is our flagship, that is hugely popular amongst the winery workers during harvest. I came from actually the wine side, and so I know from experience that after processing grapes all day, you do not want to drink wine. You want to drink beer. And so Pilsner is super just because it's pretty simple. But also it has this nuance to it, and it just has these really nice kind of you have a nice hop flavor. You have nice malt character to it, and it's just easy drinking. We also do a beer right around the winery harvest called the Harvest Logger. And that actually we do in conjunction with Visit McMinnville, which I was speaking of earlier. But this beer is that's a super popular one amongst the wineries as well. And actually it's kind of cool because visit McMinnville, they come and they buy like, a few cases, and then they go and they take it to wineries during harvest. So kind of a fun little project that we do with them now.


Tim Dennis - 00:38:11:

Have you put anything in wine barrels or maybe put some grape must in a pilsner?


Augie Carton - 00:38:15:

We don't. We haven't. I don't know if we will.


Tim Dennis - 00:38:19:

All right.


Augie Carton - 00:38:20:

I never say never.


Brian Hewitt - 00:38:22:

An abundance of barrels around. That's a lot of opportunity.


Augie Carton - 00:38:25:

Oh, yeah. We did a few kind of early on. I've dabbled in doing a couple of barrel age loggers. The hard part is just like the storage situation and kind of all of that. We don't have a great way to store them. It's also because we don't have the great storage either. Typically the beers can become oxidized pretty easily, but never say never. There's an Italian style of Vlogger where they do use kind of a great must, and it's kind of interesting.


Brian Hewitt - 00:39:10:

What's the great must thing?


Tim Dennis - 00:39:11:

That I always are you thinking of fantasm?


Brian Hewitt - 00:39:13:

Fantasm? Like an IPL with fantastic. That's kind of what I'm thinking of. I'm not sure that's where you want to go.


Tim Dennis - 00:39:20:

So, Brian, you threw out IPL here. I think this is timely to mention this. So with Gold Dot, your partner being Kevin Davy from Wayfinder, I believe he is credited with inventing the Cold IP. Is that right?


Augie Carton - 00:39:34:

Yes.


Tim Dennis - 00:39:35:

Okay, so tell Kevin we don't mean any harm with our memes talking about it just being an IPL or something. And I know that's a heated topic. I think I got a slightly irritated Twitter reply from him one time. Possibly.


Brian Hewitt - 00:39:51:

We assume that Gold will be exclusively cold.


Tim Dennis - 00:39:55:

IPA all cold IPAs. Right. Good stuff.


Augie Carton - 00:39:57:

I mean, we will make Cold IPA, but not exclusively.


Tim Dennis - 00:40:03:

You kind of have to have one, right? Yeah, good stuff. I didn't know it first until I think you made a comment about opening up. So Gold Dot and Heater Allen, it's within the same space. Correct.


Augie Carton - 00:40:16:

Yeah. Gold Dot is kind of like a brand underneath Heater Allen.


Tim Dennis - 00:40:22:

Okay.


Brian Hewitt - 00:40:25:

What will be the distinction between the beers from Heater Allen versus Gold Dot?


Augie Carton - 00:40:29:

Well, we're still working on a logo and all that sort of stuff. I think we'll have it ready soon to release, but we'll have like, a different hand label and all of that sort of stuff. Still want to do loggers because that's both, like, Kevin and my passion is making lager beer. But, yeah, we will have a Cold IPA. And yeah, like I said earlier, maybe some English style beers eventually.


John Holl - 00:40:57:

Very cool.


Tim Dennis - 00:40:58:

And when is the timeline to get that going? Get the tap room open?


Augie Carton - 00:41:02:

We're hoping so we're going to open kind of we have a big outdoor space, and we're going to open that once it stops raining in Oregon.


Tim Dennis - 00:41:12:

Okay, got you.


Brian Hewitt - 00:41:12:

It never stops, you'll never open.


Augie Carton - 00:41:18:

We're hoping, like, late June kind of by the latest, like early July. And then the indoor we don't really know because we're kind of like we have to move a bunch of stuff around before we can even start remodeling. So that will be we're hoping, like, late fall, but we're hoping we can start remodel on the indoor portion of the tap room by August, September, so it kind of depends on how stuff goes. One of those things of putting all the pieces together.


Tim Dennis - 00:41:51:

And that's always a challenge anytime you're building something out. But right now, supply chain and all of that, there's just so many variables with exactly. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining us, chatting with us about beer. We love beer. We love talking about it. So if people want to know what's going on with Heater Allen or Gold Dot, what's going to be the best place for them to go?


Augie Carton - 00:42:10:

So, yeah, you can follow on Instagram. Heater Allen is at Heater Allen beer. Gold Dot, I think, is at Gold Beer. I think that's right.


Tim Dennis - 00:42:21:

We'll find it, Google it. Yeah.


Augie Carton - 00:42:25:

And then also, we haven't built out the website for Gold Beer yet, but Heaterallenheaterallen.com is a really good way to kind of read about the brewery and learn about what's going on. We update it relatively regularly.


Tim Dennis - 00:42:40:

Awesome. Well, thanks again. We really appreciate it.


Augie Carton - 00:42:42:

Yeah, thanks for having me on.


Tim Dennis - 00:42:43:

You bet. You're listening to the Beer Guys Radio Show. We're at Little beer fest. We're going to take another break, but we'll be back in just a minute.


Brian Hewitt - 00:42:52:

Welcome back to the Beer Guys Radio Show. If you enjoy the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Just go to Patreon.com beer Guys patrons get cool, perks like Beer Guys swag commercial free episodes and access to a brand new Discord server. Now let's get back to the show.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:06:

We're back to the show. We are at Little beer fest. We are in Duluth, Georgia, USA. And we have Augie Carton with us. Of Carton brewing. Augie, thanks for joining us.


John Holl - 00:43:16:

Thank you for having me.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:16:

Absolutely, man.


John Holl - 00:43:17:

A lot of fun.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:18:

We got a couple of your beers here right now. I'm enjoying the check.


John Holl - 00:43:21:

Pilsner.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:22:

Brian is enjoying one called Drink Off the Beaten Craft.


John Holl - 00:43:26:

No, it's actually called this state needs more pub. This is more pub, correct.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:30:

Yeah. So you know what? We're going to start there. What's this beer all about?


John Holl - 00:43:33:

All right. So Jersey, because of really bad politics, for as long as there's been a Jersey, has made it hard to do things. But down here, they have this bar that just I was in for the first time yesterday. So I think all of us are enamored the first time you walk in a brick store.


Tim Dennis - 00:43:50:

Absolutely.


John Holl - 00:43:51:

But I walk in a brick store, and let's face it, like, mathematically, jersey has 8 million people, the most densely populated per square mile state, and there's not a single bar in the whole state that committed to Beers of the world service. And it's never going to change because our laws are just terrible. So this is my argument. So we can't condition a Pub Ale every six weeks, just a little amount in a grundy tank. And we just thought, I think we're just trying to get if 10,000 people of those 8 million are like, I wish you had Pub Ale, we think somebody ten places would start. So this is my mission against humanity, to force the Pub Ale cast conditioning, beer engine, camera, you know what I mean? Clearly you guys like drinking, you know what I mean? It should be an option, too.


Tim Dennis - 00:44:43:

Yes.


John Holl - 00:44:44:

In the most densely populated state in the world, there should be 50 bars doing Cask. At least ten.


Brian Hewitt - 00:44:51:

You would think.


John Holl - 00:44:52:

Yes, but we don't at all. And the places that try can't perkin is how many pints of beers? It's not a significant number of beers.


Tim Dennis - 00:44:59:

I legitimately have no idea how big is a perkin?


John Holl - 00:45:02:

I'm going to guess because clearly I'm not doing strong math this late in a Georgia beer festival. Right? But I'm guessing it's under 60 pints. If you had a bartender that liked it at a Good bar on a Friday, you'd be out by Saturday.


Tim Dennis - 00:45:18:

And speaking of Pub L's and Cascales, and that you've been to Brick Store Pub, you've been to Goodword. Fun fact about both of those places, they are both Cask Mark certified.


Brian Hewitt - 00:45:27:

That's correct.


Tim Dennis - 00:45:28:

Serving those types of beers. And I believe I'm going to be off on this because I don't, but I think there's only like seven or nine total in the US. They're in and out of that certification. Now, I'm curious, Augie, why can they not or they just don't do that kind of pup thing in Jersey?


John Holl - 00:45:44:

Well, it's just the business, right? Because we have a finite number of beer licenses. So for that same 8 million people, it's 6000 licenses, okay? And those licenses are privately held and they're sold person to person. And no matter what you do to try to make art out of food and beer and whatever, at some point, because everything's stacked for distributors and license holders, you end up having to do a wing night or you're not going to pay your rent. And once you do a wing night, once you have 250 cores light and $13 cheeseburger, you're never coming back around to bartender who knows how to handle filing. You know what I mean? Okay. One will always stop the other.


Brian Hewitt - 00:46:33:

What would have to change legally in New Jersey for your dream to become a reality, to open this up and make this a possibility?


John Holl - 00:46:42:

I'm not kidding. These liquor licenses that you need to buy cost, depending on where you are, 350,000 to 12 million. Oh, my God, I'm sorry, 2 million. What I'm saying is and what you're buying is a monopoly. You're one of the only three people that can serve beer in that town or the only person that can sell beer in that region, or one of 14 in my town. So that becomes once you've paid that amount of money, that becomes your job is owning that asset, and there's no charge to hold it. Meaning it can just be a pocket license. Like, if your dad bought one for 30,040 years ago and you think it's worth a million, you don't have to sell it. It never costs you money. You don't even have to have a restaurant just till somebody pays you a million. There's one closed restaurant. So what you need is people that are, like, retired cops who want to open an empanada shop to be able to put beer in this place for less than a million dollars, and then you get a beer culture.


Brian Hewitt - 00:47:42:

This kind of sounds like the original NFT, like, right?


John Holl - 00:47:47:

I've never heard that. I love that.


Tim Dennis - 00:47:48:

That is perfect.


John Holl - 00:47:50:

It's an actual NFT.


Brian Hewitt - 00:47:52:

You've bought an asset, but it has a real value.


John Holl - 00:47:53:

It has a real value that only is realized when it's paid.


Tim Dennis - 00:47:56:

Yeah.


John Holl - 00:47:57:

Well done. I love that.


Tim Dennis - 00:47:59:

Augie, did I see as well that.


Brian Hewitt - 00:48:02:

I think it was New Jersey?


Tim Dennis - 00:48:03:

Did you have something with beer events at breweries?


John Holl - 00:48:08:

So an event is turning on your TV. That's an event.


Brian Hewitt - 00:48:11:

Oh, wow.


Tim Dennis - 00:48:12:

Food trucks. Are you seeing that you're not allowed.


John Holl - 00:48:15:

To correlate with food trucks? Okay, actually, it's funny. So here's my story for that, because I love that for today. So yesterday so my friend and podcasting partner John Hall got here Thursday. I showed up yesterday. My plane was delayed by an hour and a half, which means I got out of bed at 05:00. A.m. Got here at 130 and hadn't eaten. And he's like, Meet me at halfway. Crooks. And I was like, Right, but do they have food? Because I haven't eaten yet, and if I meet you and drink three beers, that day is going to end. And I had to ask that question. But I mean, of course they do, right? They're in the other 49 states. Of course there's a way to eat. Of course. But in New Jersey, if I was meeting him at a brewery, nine out of ten times, even if they had a food truck, we wouldn't be able to know till we showed up, because against the law for us to tell you there's a food truck there.


Brian Hewitt - 00:49:06:

Oh, you can't even tell people.


Tim Dennis - 00:49:08:

Well, our laws changed 2017. We really had some changes here. We got direct to consumer sales. Laws change. And that's really when we kind of boomed here. We went from 40 or 50 breweries to, I think we're about 150 now. So about 100 growth in, say, six years. But we had tours and tastes. You'd go in, you get a sample, you'd get a little pour of beer. They couldn't sell you anything to go. Our midway point there was you could go in and get a tour, and your tour can include souvenir beers, so they could give you a six pack.


John Holl - 00:49:39:

Right? We had the same limitations. When I opened, okay, I was allowed to sell you the equivalent of two growlers or two six packs. I could only give away tastings, which is so whatever the thing here is, look what's happened to you guys. In three years, I have had the nicest beer weekend of my life. Like, everybody's making beers. There's such a density that you have some specialists in lagers, you have some specialists in Cascales, right? There's such a density and such a uniform. And what's funny is I was telling John this morning, I was like, you know what I realized when I went to bed last night is I walked into three different restaurants, saw a guiding a cheeseburger that looks so good, I had to have it at Goodword at Brick Store and down at halfway, right? Somebody I was like, because I'm not a cheeseburger guy, but I'm a food guy. I was like, that looks amazing. Get me that cheeseburger. And just my whole food yesterday was three cheeseburgers lager beers.


Brian Hewitt - 00:50:36:

We are spoiled.


John Holl - 00:50:37:

We expect top notch payment.


Tim Dennis - 00:50:40:

Yeah.


John Holl - 00:50:41:

And that's how you move to coding. And if you're in Jersey, it's worth.


Tim Dennis - 00:50:44:

Mentioning that we are a clean podcast.


John Holl - 00:50:47:

Sorry.


Tim Dennis - 00:50:48:

So we'll censor the ones, but just.


John Holl - 00:50:50:

An FYI for I'm bad about that. That's a jersey.


Tim Dennis - 00:50:54:

John was disappointed as well.


John Holl - 00:50:58:

That's authentic. That's how we talk.


Tim Dennis - 00:51:00:

That's it. You're getting the real stuff here.


John Holl - 00:51:02:

I really am sorry, because I should be better than that, but I'm just.


Brian Hewitt - 00:51:06:

Not a lot of the passion from the heart, right?


John Holl - 00:51:10:

And you're talking to me about politics anyway, so I should say I just stole a fast fashion schwarz beer.


Tim Dennis - 00:51:16:

And it was good, isn't it?


John Holl - 00:51:17:

It was very delightful.


Tim Dennis - 00:51:20:

Very delightful.


John Holl - 00:51:21:

But now I'm going to switch. It was join you guys in my beers because I'm drinking.


Brian Hewitt - 00:51:25:

I agree with him. The fast fashion Schwarz beer is quite nice, and it's worth swearing over.


John Holl - 00:51:32:

He gets me going anyway, man. Thank you, gentlemen.


Brian Hewitt - 00:51:35:

It's nice to so you got to tell me about the beer that you were talking about.


John Holl - 00:51:40:

Yes, you were drinking coffee lager. This is one of those things. So I think the beer we're most famous for is regular coffee, even though it's either boat or regular coffee, right? Boat or regular coffee. The two people know us for. And the joke there is I was trying to make a paper cup of coffee milk, two sugars beer instead of a coffee stout. And I did that by teaming up with a roaster across the street from us who helped me. He's, like, made me 30 cold brews, just put numbers on them. I gave him notes. We figured it out. We made because I wanted to taste like a tar. But the s word cup of coffee. But I wanted it to be good, right? So I was like, we need acidity and bitterness, but in a good way, right? So like artichoke bitterness and lemon acidity, not cleaner.


Brian Hewitt - 00:52:27:

So you go and like diner coffee, right?


John Holl - 00:52:29:

Right. You know what I mean? You want that old earned coffee flavor and then milk, two sugars, but I want it to be pretty. So our local roaster got me into that. We started talking and that developed a now twelve year old relationship where on my way into the brewery, I stop at his place. He's like, try this. And he's teaching me how to taste coffee. So a couple of years ago, like four years ago, like four years ago, he gives me a I want to say it was a Bali I want to say it was a Bali Blue Moon Coffee. And he starts describing it. So we're tasting and he's teaching me.


Brian Hewitt - 00:53:03:

Was it Kobe Lawak?


John Holl - 00:53:05:

I don't know. But it was a Bali. He called it Blue Moon. He's like, all right, so when you get this, you should get like dry cherries, figs, little bit of brown sugar, you know what I mean? And whatever. And as he tells me that I'm tasting it, I'm definitely getting I was like, but do you not know that you're describing a doppelbock? And he's like, what are you talking I was like, well, if you make a doppelbock exactly right, it tastes like dried cherries, figs, brown sugar, whatever. Sure. And that started this kind of idea in my head. I was like, well, could we make so basically we did was a Doppelbox grist and then took all the hops out and we put those coffee beans in green at the boil and then whole at Whirlpool and cold brewed at Trihop. And the idea wasn't to make a coffee doppelbock, it was to make a beer that somehow tied how that coffee tastes like a doppelbock and that doppelbock tastes like a coffee. So we call them Java box. There's no hops in them. And we do it every Lent. And this is what I think you love. And we do it every Lent. We sell 40 cans at the first day of Lent for $40. And if you drink one a day, like a searcher monk would during Lent in the 16 hundreds, you get one a day for your fast. But now we do it. Basically every December I come up, I'm like, go find me a different so this year was Costa Tour, right? You get a Costa Rican coffee, a tour or Bali nader? And we just make a Java Bach, which is a doppelbock with no hops and coffee beans. And we try to just find like, you can't not taste coffee, but it's not a coffee beer. So that's what we're talking about.


Brian Hewitt - 00:54:44:

Does the absence of hops, is that a really noticeable thing? Or do you not just not notice it at all.


John Holl - 00:54:50:

It works for me in a cool out, but there's two things that are unique about it that I still haven't ironed out because I don't have a science relationship to things out. But there's two things. One, it's a little more slick, and I don't mean like diaceonal slick, but just like coffee oils slick. So interesting and works, but it's a mouthfeel change. And two, the acidity of the green beans. If you wait a year for the doppelbach or I've done an ice beer version of it, which is illegal in New Jersey. So you've never sold it or tasted it?


Matty Hargrove - 00:55:22:

We do it.


John Holl - 00:55:24:

We icebock it technically distilling, I believe, right? Yeah, which is a problem. But we do it. You freeze a couple of kegs and pour off. It goes immediately sour in the weirdest neatest way because of the acidity inherent to the coffee beans with the malts as you push up. So it's a very neat acidification without fermentation or acidification. So that's the other fun thing. But I can't control for that yet. So basically, I tell her, I'm like, look, if you like it like this, drink it in six months. If you want to see acidity, save the other two for a year.


Tim Dennis - 00:56:00:

Do you use the same base doppelbock recipe every time or do you change.


John Holl - 00:56:04:

For the bean 100%?


Tim Dennis - 00:56:05:

Okay.


John Holl - 00:56:06:

We're looking for where they cross. We're not trying to we do brew two beans in other projects. We do like, a yoga chef beer. We just did a collaboration with other half where Sam is now roasting coffee beans. So we got his beans and did our old all orange everything beer, plus this very orangey coffee bean he has. We always throw out coffee, and I'm always working to coffee or working coffee to us. But this one is just those beans, because you learn those tasting notes, right? Think about it. Dried cherries, figs. It's just that's what a Bach tastes like. So many coffees do that.


Brian Hewitt - 00:56:42:

I like that in a coffee. And I like that in a beer because I'm a big coffee nut and I love coffee tones in a beer.


Tim Dennis - 00:56:48:

I dig it, man. It made me think. Him talk about changing the beans and keeping the recipe. That tariff in four pack, they did five or six years. Oh, yeah. With all the different beer stout, the same based stout. Four different beers in one four pack with a different coffee bean.


John Holl - 00:57:02:

When you say that to me, all I hear is, how much did they pay for the equipment to make that happen?


Tim Dennis - 00:57:06:

Well, that's I was like, if I.


John Holl - 00:57:07:

Wanted to do four different cans in one four pack, I would need 70 more employees and I'd lose 69 of them day two.


Tim Dennis - 00:57:14:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was like, all right, this had to be hand packed, let's say here, small batch, all that good stuff.


Brian Hewitt - 00:57:20:

And it was very cool for. The consumer.


Tim Dennis - 00:57:22:

It was very noticeable how different each beer was.


John Holl - 00:57:28:

Do you remember, like, a dozen years ago when Mickler did his single Hop? But the problem was so many of them were so freaking tired. Is what you're writing all the times.


Tim Dennis - 00:57:45:

I cursed it's the timestamps.


Brian Hewitt - 00:57:46:

Definitely.


John Holl - 00:57:47:

Yeah. I owe you guys at least three sheets of paper. We need a square jar.


Brian Hewitt - 00:57:52:

We would be rich right now.


John Holl - 00:57:54:

I would just give you a beer every time. What else do we need to talk about?


Tim Dennis - 00:58:00:

I think we've hit it, Augie. I think we're here for now.


John Holl - 00:58:04:

Yeah.


Tim Dennis - 00:58:04:

So thanks for joining us.


John Holl - 00:58:06:

Thanks for having me. It's a lot of fun. Sorry about all the cursing.


Brian Hewitt - 00:58:10:

It's okay.


John Holl - 00:58:11:

By the way, just by talking about beer, don't you guys have to put a parental warning on it?


Tim Dennis - 00:58:15:

We don't. We've been clean for I love that.


John Holl - 00:58:17:

That's a good rule, and I'm sorry about that.


Tim Dennis - 00:58:20:

The reason we stayed clean is we were on the radio. We're syndicated radio. So we've done that, and we're actually and it's a good time for me to rock, folks. Subscribe to the podcast. Actually, I don't need to say it because this won't be on the radio.


Brian Hewitt - 00:58:32:

It'll be a podcast.


Tim Dennis - 00:58:33:

But subscribe. Tell a friend about the show. Look at all the cool people we talked to today. Augie Carton, John Hall, Lisa Allen. We've just had a really how great is Lisa, right?


John Holl - 00:58:43:

You know, we got to talk about that. I want to put out there. Tell me about it. Thank you, Todd.


Tim Dennis - 00:58:49:

For sure.


John Holl - 00:58:50:

This is the most dangerous I think we talked about this 4 hours ago. When I go to a typical beer fest the Carton gets invited to, I'm pretty safe because it's tasting beers. Like, I want to taste it. I want to quantify it. I want to understand. It fine. It's always a 14% or a haze or whatever.


Brian Hewitt - 00:59:06:

Sure.


John Holl - 00:59:06:

And it's great. And I want to taste 90 beers, and I get in trouble at two, and I'm in trouble a day. These are all beers by brewers. I want to drink they're drinking beers, which makes it the worst event I've ever been to. You just keep drinking beers all day. But I got to tell you, Todd deserves all the accolades in the world.


Tim Dennis - 00:59:26:

This is the neatest there he goes right there. He's just so this is Lucas. Todd di Mateo.


Brian Hewitt - 00:59:33:

This is we got it.


Tim Dennis - 00:59:34:

Todd di Mateo.


John Holl - 00:59:35:

Got to put this thank you very much.


Tim Dennis - 00:59:36:

With good Word put on this fantastic festival. He looks busy.


John Holl - 00:59:40:

He's looking at I try. I do have to go write it down.


Tim Dennis - 00:59:47:

We'll just censor todd with good word brewing. He puts on this festival. Todd and Ryan and Goodword, you met all the fellows. David, the whole crew down at Brick store.


John Holl - 00:59:58:

Amazing.


Tim Dennis - 00:59:58:

You know what?


John Holl - 00:59:59:

You guys should be pretty if you did all this in four years. If changing the law. That's all I want to say to all my politicians. Look, yeah, I was just in Georgia, and they used to be terrible, and now it's such a great culture of enthusiastic good people having a good time, and nobody's spilling beer on their sneakers here, man. Everybody's just having a nice this could be you.


Brian Hewitt - 01:00:19:

You just got to make a few changes. That's it.


Tim Dennis - 01:00:22:

Pay attention, Jersey. You can do this.


Brian Hewitt - 01:00:24:

You can do it.


John Holl - 01:00:25:

Thank you, gentlemen. I'm going to end there.


Tim Dennis - 01:00:27:

Augie, what's the best way for people to keep up with what's happening at Carton Brewing.


John Holl - 01:00:31:

Oh, God, we're terrible at that. So we've been on Instagram, which is @cartonbrewing, and basically Wednesdays at noon, I talk about what we're doing this week. So that's probably the best. I hope you guys like it still.


Tim Dennis - 01:00:42:

This beer podcast, right?


John Holl - 01:00:43:

Well, that's John Hall, but that's not Carton. John yells at me every time I talk about Carton.


Tim Dennis - 01:00:47:

Are you on every episode? Yeah.


John Holl - 01:00:49:

No, it's our podcast. John has 17. I have one.


Tim Dennis - 01:00:53:

Okay, all right.


John Holl - 01:00:54:

But John and I talk about so John and I just talk about beers and what it's doing, not what we hoped it would do. That's our gig. We drink blind, and we just try to meet cool people and share the conversation. I'm sure like you guys, but you know what I mean? We just try to share the conversation where John the beer writer, and Augie the brewer, would meet somebody in a bar and talk all day, and I'd be like, we got to take the BS out of all this and just make it like, what do you think? So that's what we try to do. Thank you.


Tim Dennis - 01:01:20:

Good. Thanks again, man. We appreciate you joining us, gentlemen.


John Holl - 01:01:23:

I appreciate you having me, y'all.


Tim Dennis - 01:01:24:

That wraps it up for this episode of Beer Guys Radio. We appreciate you tuning in for more craft. For info, follow us online. We are Beer Guys Radio on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, drink local.


John Holl - 01:01:38:

Cheers.