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Welcome Home - A Podcast for Veterans, About Veterans, By Veterans
The Ageless Call: Dr. Lanny Snodgrass on Joining the Army at Age 63 and Beyond
Have you ever wondered what it takes to answer the call to service at an age when most are retiring? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Lanny Snodgrass, a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel and author of the forthcoming book "The Ageless Call to Service," who shares his awe-inspiring journey from providing mental health care during the Vietnam War in Bangkok to enlisting in the Army at age 63. Despite a heart condition, Dr. Snodgrass felt a profound sense of duty that led him to overcome rigorous physical demands and obtain age waivers, culminating in his role as a military psychiatrist.
In this episode, Dr. Snodgrass recounts his various military assignments, starting at Fort Riley, Kansas, and continuing to Germany, where he managed mental health referrals and supported wounded soldiers. He offers a poignant look at the psychological toll of war, the prevalence of PTSD among young soldiers, and the intricate connection between physical and psychological injuries. Dr. Snodgrass also discusses systemic issues related to age-related service criteria and shares his reflections on these experiences. Don't miss his insights and the anticipation surrounding his upcoming book, set to be released on Amazon in September, which delves deeper into these compelling topics.
Good morning. I'm Larry Zilliox, D irector of Culinary Services here at the Warrior Retreat at Bull Run, and today our guest is Dr Lanny Snodgrass. He's a Lieutenant Colonel, retired Army, and he's the author of a forthcoming book called The Ageless Call to Service, and I'm really excited about having him as a guest because he also holds a distinction that's very unique he's the oldest American to have ever enlisted in the Army and he completed Army Officer Basic at age 63. So I'm really interested in how that came to be and what his career was like joining the Army at age 63. But, doc, really appreciate you joining us today.
Dr. Snodgrass:Welcome to the podcast, thank you Well, my history is rather convoluted and lengthy. I have provided mental health care for military personnel, includes dependents, includes active duty reservists, people that are veterans for 45 years. My beginning occurred when the Vietnam War was on and I was finishing a doctoral program in psychology at the University of Oregon. I needed the job, like most people do, after spending a great deal of time and money in preparation for a profession or a career such as a psychologist, and so, anyway, I got hired as a psychologist in Bangkok and this was a very interesting assignment and, of course, a very interesting cultural diversity, which I was intrigued by. In fact, I embarked on my dissertation and my research study. While I was there, I began a cross-cultural study of nonverbal communication and dissonance, the difference between the East and the West. I won't go into the details about that, but most of my data, my dissertation, came from Thailand and the remainder came from Singapore.
Larry Zilliox:So who were you working for? Who hired you? Were you working for the military?
Dr. Snodgrass:I was working for International School Services actually, which was based in Princeton, new Jersey. The international school was made up of 85% from military dependents, so so the bulk of this population that I was responsible for providing psychological care for would have been through the Department of Defense At that time. During Vietnam War, bangkok was declared a safe haven city for the American shepherds, and we used to refer to the fathers as the mothers, wives and nine-month widows, you know, who were holding on and keeping things calm and collected and safe while he was off to the jungles of Vietnam. It was after that that I then embarked on medical school, and after medical school that I then started my internship and residency, and during my residency years at Mettinger's, I really got very, very, very much interested in the working of Vietnam, with Vietnam vets and some World War II v really getting into integral problems of remarks and thoughts about how their lives had been altered in not a good way. And the challenges were tremendous, yeah, to try to provide rehabilitation to a soldier that had suffered not only physical wounds but mental, emotional, psychological wounds that were terrifying, that were so menacing. So you know, after so many years I mean, I really felt that I had something I owed to all of this that I had experienced, and what I really felt I owed was joining the Army.
Dr. Snodgrass:I had to wear that uniform and my discomfort chased me through most of my career until at age 63, I said, okay, I'm going to do this or die. And at that time I was diagnosed with a heart condition. I had a problem with sick sinus syndrome. I was skipping beats. We're three seconds between beats and my base rate of 43. It wasn't because I was in great shape. My surgeon said yeah, you need a pacemaker now. The military said no, and I'll snob you. I said if you get a pacemaker now? Well, the military said no, you know snobby. I said if you get a pacemaker, you can't serve. So I said hey, I'm not going to give this up. If I can go down there and do my training and become a military doctor and active duty and wear that uniform, I will do it. So help me, god if it takes my life. And that's what I did.
Larry Zilliox:And so this was right after 9-11?.
Dr. Snodgrass:Well, it was 2004. It was really right after, yeah, we had just sent 130,000 soldiers over to Iraq, iraq, yeah, and then the coalition forces. I mean, with everything, it was over 250,000000, probably near $300,000, considering all the power. I had taken the oath at age 60, but I received orders. I received a letter from a man saying no, snodgrass, you've reached the age of retirement. And it was a mistake. A recruiter, you know, a mistake, you can't join. So I married, you know, for three and a half years, and finally it was, you know, pentagon finally thinking well, you know, he has a very, very important specialty and we don't have enough psychiatrists. So they waved the age restrictions finally, but of course, by that time I did have the heart condition. However, that didn't dissuade me.
Larry Zilliox:I went anyway, yeah, they give out a waiver for anything. You know, you just got to push them, but I've seen guys with brain waivers, so you know, yeah, you can get in, that's amazing.
Dr. Snodgrass:It is quite an amazing story. I mean they thought that you know I was taken to the burn scene twice through the desert. You know the experience of going through what basic we had and I just, you know, had such a rough time keeping up with the rest of the soldiers, or I should say service members. We were just going through the rigmarole of the obstacle course and the 150-pound mannequin under barbed wire, over the top of a six-foot wall and this little 60 year body, yeah, not not hitting on all of us in my own cellars. Certainly, with the hard thing, skipping those beats uh, became a problem, but uh, I made it. Yeah, where'd you do the basic and items? So that was down in port san justin, okay, and uh, uh, was the the name of that, the that area out there in the desert? Yeah, they use.
Larry Zilliox:I've been there. Yeah, it's a godforsaken place. Yeah, when I was in the Air Force, we trained there for air base ground defense at Camp Olis.
Dr. Snodgrass:It's up in there. Yeah Well, the picture on the front cover of my book has been changed. The publisher out of London decided they wanted my battle buddy with me on that picture and I told them months ago. I said, listen, there's only one way that that picture can be there. I have to reach that and I have to make sure that I have the permission of that person to do this. And I had tried for three years to get a hold of my brother and it was just, it wasn't happening. And here we are, two weeks ago, midnight hour, my colleagues and I get a call from my dad, and so it's all happening there. You just, you know, sometimes you can't choose the time, but the time happens and you kind of wonder to yourself, well, how did this really come about? And it's amazing. Anyway.
Larry Zilliox:You finished up officer candidate school there and, uh, what was your first assignment where you were deployed right away, or so no, my first assignment was for Fort Riley, Kansas.
Dr. Snodgrass:So another good point where I saw many, many young men that were coming into the military, some of them very naive, not really understanding what they had signed up for. Others were pretty much done whole, and so I was involved in the early on of taking care of referrals through mental health, those individuals that were kind of on the line. They were marginal as to whether they were going to really be fit for deployment so I made decisions fairly quickly on screening that particular problem.
Larry Zilliox:Right. And so, after Fort Riley, where did you go then, were you ever deployed? So?
Dr. Snodgrass:then I was assigned for my summer duties, because as a reservist you do have training that occurs annually, and that was in Germany, that was in. That was in Heidelberg, the med act hospital, nice. But I got my orders, uh, for deployment in 2008, okay, and they had uh scheduled me for deployment in Iraq. But when I checked in there at Longstreet and my medical records they said, well, you know, we don't have a field hospital in Iraq to take care of a cardiac procedure on you. That just wouldn't be the place for us to deploy you. So they left me in lawn school, okay, and I had some other assignments, volunteer assignments. They had a doctor up at the lawns that's the Supreme High Command post up there in Belgium and she had a family crisis and had to leave. And I said, sure, I'll fill that spot.
Dr. Snodgrass:And so the commander said, well, you know, ernest, and I guess you did a good job there you know the doctor down in Vichinza, he's got orders to go to Afghanistan. Would you take his place? I said, sure, come on. So I got some good assignments and experience what war does to change and alter emotions in people's sense about their security and sense about their confidence, especially those that are involved in some very tragic experiences of life and death and their buddies then killed, and uh, just right in front of them. And what, what that does to some individuals, young, the soldiers that are good soldiers, but uh, confronted with such raw carnage, trauma, uh, that uh, you know, has to be dealt with. Sometimes you have to hospitalize these soldiers. They have to be treated impatiently, intensively.
Larry Zilliox:So in Germany for our listeners kind of lay that give them a lay of the land. Germany really is the transit point for soldiers that were wounded, coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan. They would be stabilized in country and then flown to Germany for further evaluation treatment to decide then what stateside hospital might be appropriate based on their medical condition and their wounds and things like that. And I'm assuming that you saw a number of patients there for PTS, that pretty much every patient that came through there, it certainly was, especially in Longstool. Yeah.
Dr. Snodgrass:The Longstool Hospital is massive, it's absolutely massive. The old hospital that, my goodness, if you would walk the corridors of Longstool Hospital, it would take you three miles, three miles. They had built that kind of after the tunnels in Bataan, where they have all these parallel structures that are separated by space so that no one terrorist or no one bombing could obliterate the entire hospital. Sure, it could not, and that was for safety purposes and to secure as much as they could. But you know, the buses would come, you know, during the night, all night long, filled with wounded to the hospital. It just, it's just occurring all the time. Just, it was such an impressive experience to witness and be a part of the caring and healing of these service members. I felt honored to be really there.
Larry Zilliox:Well, I for one, am really excited about the book it's going to do out in September September and it'll be available on Amazon. Like I said, I'm going to have a link to the book so our listeners can buy it, and read it.
Dr. Snodgrass:The book examines both the upper and lower limits on military service and the implications of outdated, age-related service criteria, most of which was enacted more than 100 years ago. You know, sending in the teen, 19-year-old teenagers to do so much of the combat, to really self-sacrifice hard stuff, and you ask yourself why, why have we not examined this? Why have we not had a debate? Why has this not been something to give real priority to? And it's certainly overdue?
Dr. Snodgrass:I think probably any commander or sergeant would say well, probably it's because these 18, 19-year-olds are fearless. They're fearless, they don't really know the actual value of life. And so I bring out research that has been discovered in terms of development prefrontal cortex, what that means in terms of maturity. Until you're 25, you pretty much have an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. A prefrontal cortex has to do with the delay in reflection, because the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex, that's where you have a person who has less time to think about what they're going to do and how they're going to provide the action. So the delay is very short. I think that has some implications about why we are sending the 18, 19-year-olds. If you look at Vietnam, the average age of the soldier is 18, 18.
Dr. Snodgrass:Yeah they're very young. 30% of those came back with PTSD post-traumatic. Yeah Well, I think it's even underreported too. 30% of those came back with PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder.
Larry Zilliox:Yeah Well, I think it's even underreported too. I mean anybody with a combat wound, almost everybody we see at the hospitals, like Walter Reed. If you're looking at a soldier with a combat wound, such as an amputee, you're also looking at post-traumatic stress as well as traumatic brain injury, because it's almost impossible to receive that kind of wound without the other.
Dr. Snodgrass:That is right. There's really a very close correlation and when you look at the recent studies that show regarding post-traumatic stress disorder, they show that if you take someone under the age of 25 and put him into combat, that he has seven times greater chance of developing ptsd as somebody is 25 and older, somebody is 25 and older in courts. And then if you add two more factors, one would be a troubled childhood, a child abuse and the issue of innocence, meaning let's say that someone, a collateral damage occurred and someone, an innocent person, was killed in that particular combat scenario, that that together would bring the percentage of 97% chance of PTSD. I just mentioned some of these facts to illustrate the importance of the perspective of considering combat and age service in that kind of a highly intensive and stressful element.
Larry Zilliox:I wonder, though I mean I'm not even sure it's possible to have an older enlisted force, in the sense that if you're looking at 25 and older, then you're talking about trying to recruit into the military individuals who have gone to high school and graduated, and either went into college or didn't. They're settled into some sort of lifestyle that would be hard to recruit from, I would think.
Dr. Snodgrass:Yeah, I do think that you know, given the involvement of maturity of the brain and of that particular aspect, the prefrontal cortex of the brain. I think that you know the teenagers. I would err on the side of safety and be conservative, and you know somewhere between 20 and 25, but sending the teenagers in, I have concerns about that. Yeah, yeah.
Larry Zilliox:Well, listen, I'm looking forward to getting the book. I can't wait, sure, sure, and it's fascinating, and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to us about not only the PTS and the book coming out, but this idea that you would enlist in the Army at age 63. Uh, it's just crazy. It's just crazy to me. I, I really, uh, I really applaud you for that. I, I couldn't even imagine what that was like uh, well, that was uh.
Dr. Snodgrass:I'm sure a lot of my peers would agree with you and uh would say they would never do it, at least you know. Certainly not considering the cardiological issues of my health.
Larry Zilliox:Yeah, it's just, it was crazy. So well, doc, I really appreciate it.
Dr. Snodgrass:You know, larry, I wouldn't take it back for anything, truthfully, yeah.
Larry Zilliox:I would not.
Dr. Snodgrass:Yeah, almost everybody is better than me. It was one of the most important things, meaningful things, I've ever done in my life.
Larry Zilliox:I think most people that serve in the armed forces feel the same way. I know.
Dr. Snodgrass:There's no fraternity that matches that outside of the military.
Larry Zilliox:No, the tribe is strong for sure. Sure is Well. Thank you for joining us, and the book will be out in September.
Dr. Snodgrass:Yes, it's actually released in July in London. Okay, and then it will be given to the Philadelphia office, which will then print it for the United States, and that will be then in September. That's right, great Can't. Can't wait so well. Thank you, and I appreciate your feedback.
Larry Zilliox:Yeah, oh for sure, for sure, I'll be in touch, for sure I might even send you my copy to have you sign it.
Dr. Snodgrass:Oh, I'll surely, surely do that, and thank you so much for the opportunity today to discuss this.
Larry Zilliox:Well for our listeners. We'll have another episode next Monday morning at 5 am. If you have any questions or suggestions, you can reach us at podcast at willingwarriorsorg. Until then, thanks for listening.
