E40. Surprises in extensions and renovations

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time podcast Frank and Amelia talk about surprises that have come up during extensions and renovations. They delve into the creepy secret rooms behind walls, getting locked out of a room and the ancient dunny behind a wall. 

Frank also talks about common challenges that could arise when doing an extension or renovation 

Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. There is a new episode each week with a new topic to discuss. 

Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E40. Surprises in extensions and renos 

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.

[Amelia] (0:26 - 5:21)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus. 

[Frank]

Afternoon Amelia. 

[Amelia]

Afternoon Frank.

[Frank]

So what are we doing today? What are we doing? 

[Amelia]

Surprises that you might find when you're extending or renovating your home.

[Frank]

Oh yeah, oh yeah. 

[Amelia]

There are some good ones.

[Frank]

Oh some of the stuff you find, you know, and you don't find it until you actually get in to pull things apart. Get in and yeah start extending, renovating whatever and just some of the stuff that we find is amazing and not amazing and expensive. I'll use one example, I remember I got called into a reno and it's already been previously renovated house and they're re-renovating. I said okay this is weird, can you come have a little bit of a problem with the floor.

I walk in, it's an old I suppose Federation style house thereabouts and I walk in and like all the flooring's off and everything's stripped out. Okay this is a pretty heavy duty what they're doing and he showed me, come and have a look at this and had relatively new timbers. I think it's pine flooring.

I noticed it was very close to the ground and also when I walked in there was a concrete path in the outside so there was no, the path wasn't that much lower than the floor. Hey look at this, this was done two years ago and had a closer look and all the bottom of all the timber had rotted. 

[Amelia]

And it was only two years old?

[Frank]

Yeah so. 

[Amelia]

Wow. 

[Frank]

They apparently, I couldn't tell because it stripped all the walls out and stuff and all the fixtures but there was a bathroom and connected to a bedroom and they replaced the flooring that was there which was old hardwood.

Oh they replaced it, just put pine in, just normal pine. Anyway not even two years old, the thing is just like totally crumbled and just gone, just the top of it was still there and the reason why was that they had no room, virtually very little space between that and the ground and there was no ventilation and it naturally got a little bit damp so it just completely rotted out. 

[Amelia]

So no airflow?

[Frank]

No airflow, no nothing but it was the wrong size material to put, it was the wrong type material to put in there, there was no ventilation, it was a wet area on top. I don't know if it leaked or anything either but I can't make comment on it and it then ended up causing more problems through the bedroom and wrecking basically the whole thing, throw it all away. 

[Amelia]

Wow, whole new floor?

[Frank]

Whole new floor but it was everything above the floor too so the bathroom was gone, the bedroom was gone, it was stuffed. Oh dear. It was just, oh two years so just think the money they spent to do that was just to throw it down the toilet literally you know.

[Amelia]

I suppose insurance wouldn't cover that would it?

[Frank]

I don't believe so, I can't make comment on that, I don't believe it was the case so I don't know what happened so I gave advice and I said well you can't get airflow in here, there's concrete path outside, how do you get it to breathe? So I said look you're better off framing this off and we put a concrete slab in there.

[Amelia]
Wow. 

[Frank]

It was far easier doing it that way because it was just a way you could get the floor to breathe and everything's got to breathe, timber has to breathe you know, if it's moist under there it just won't work. So that's always a good surprise when you start renovating but it's not an unusual one if you're working on a really old house, especially if you have some more period correct houses with weatherboards and stone foundations, you don't mess with them and what I mean by that, don't change the ventilation, don't block off the holes, let it breathe but heaps of people lock the vents or all the internal vents of the house as well and it causes problems and you only find that when you actually renovate. 

[Amelia]

Yeah you would.

[Frank]

Yeah then you find weird stuff under the floor too, find some little bits of treasures and rubbish and dead animals. 

[Amelia]

Oh yuck. 

[Frank]

You do, it's under the floor isn't it?

[Amelia]

I'm pretty sure we found a mouse in our wall cavity. 

[Frank]

Oh that's not unusual. 

[Amelia]

Yeah that wasn't very nice, dead one obviously.

[Frank]

But then like you find people throw stuff under the house right and then you pull it, you do a red hose, you pull the stuff out, then you find bits of the old house like you might find, like I was saying, I found some fret work for a house I was renovating, bits of balustrades, oh cool I can reuse that, I recycled some stuff. I found exercise gear and carpet and bottles, I found heaps and heaps of bottles thrown under the house. 

[Amelia]

Really?

[Frank]

Yeah I remember one job we found a whole heap of cans, obviously they were drinking on the job, there was a heap of steel beer cans under the floor. 

[Amelia]

Like vintage ones? 

[Frank]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Oh wow. All rusted and stuff. Yeah.

[Frank]

But you find all sorts of things, also you find on the back of walls sometimes people sign their name and dates, old newspapers stuck in the wall, so you find some interesting stuff.

[Amelia] (5:21 - 5:22)

Oh for sure.

[Frank] (5:22 - 5:26)

Another one is electrical, home electrical jobs, they're a winner.

[Amelia] (5:26 - 5:29)

Oh yeah, people like to try.

[Frank] (5:30 - 5:48)

If you talked a few sparkies and I reckon you get some pearler stories where people have done their own electrical work and yeah potential fire hazard if you have not done properly, it's as simple as that. The old galvo pipe for your plumbing, you know you used to run galvo pipes and you get the rusty water through your taps.

[Amelia] (5:49 - 5:49)

Oh yuck.

[Frank] (5:49 - 9:18)

Yeah it clears out, it'll be fine. Yeah but now we do copper, well we don't do copper anymore, we use plastic now. 

[Amelia]

PVC?

[Frank]

It's not quite, it's quite different. 

[Amelia]

Is it? 

[Frank]

Yeah. So that's the early versions of the plastic water lines, the rats used to love chewing on it. Yeah. 

[Amelia]

Or terracotta pipes.

[Frank]

Oh yeah in your garden, yeah for your waste, they're always a winner. Trees love those, get all the roots in there, block it up and then back up your sewer so it pops out somewhere else.

[Amelia]

 Yeah I've got some experience with that.

[Frank]

Yeah, yeah. A friend of mine was just telling me in Hobart, he's just had that happen to him and yeah couldn't fix it for a while, couldn't use his bathroom for a week. Yeah.

Because coming out the overflow relief gully, that's never pleasant. 

[Amelia]

Our tenants were like that as well and it was really really boggy in the backyard when it happened too, so I think they had to wait until it dried out. 

[Frank]

And this is when you're renovating, you deal with old places, it's well you're gonna find some really interesting things happen, plumbing is one of those.

Also oh yeah another favourite is home plumbing is really good too, doing their own plumbing. 

[Amelia]

What have they done? 

[Frank]

Like just their own PVC pipes under the house, put a new kitchen in, put the sink in, do their own 50 mil PVC pipes but it's kind of stuck up there with strapping and all sorts of rubbish.

[Amelia]

Oh no.

[Frank]

Yeah seriously. 

[Amelia]

Oh dear dodgy brothers.

[Frank]

Yeah pretty much just do a bathroom, do a kitchen reno and just do the plumbing yourself and yeah yeah really dodgy. So you gotta be careful of that and when you buy a house how do you find all this stuff? 

[Amelia]
Yeah that's so true even if you get you know a building inspector to have a look, there's still a lot of things that they can't see.

[Frank]

You can't see, you can't, you don't know what you don't know, that's as simple as that. You just curse the previous owners or it could be the owner before that, could be the owner before that, you don't know. Someone's done a kitchen reno and they've put the kitchen in themselves and they've cut little you know bits of joinery to cover things that aren't square, that's always fun and then when you pull it apart to maybe just update something and you're going down a rabbit hole of trying to fix something you know it's not square, floors off level, the walls aren't straight, you wonder why they had the splash back is really thick and then you find out that the whole top doesn't fit to the wall because at one end it's you know 25 mil out at the other end so they covered it with a really big splash back.

[Amelia]

Yeah I've seen that and that's the same as our house as well. 

[Frank]

So you don't know a lot of this stuff until you get into it and that's where budgets get busted. 

[Amelia]

Oh and so quickly as well just with little things like that that aren't square or things are mouldy or.

[Frank]

Or your electrical and you've got to replace a chunk of the electrical in the house you weren't expecting, you're just doing a small thing and then you find out oh there's three or four thousand bucks worth of electrical work needs to be done. Oh didn't see that coming but it has to be done for safety. Yeah it's tough or slow leaks.

I saw one where the dishwasher has slow leak with a kink in in the hose and because it was a tile floor that didn't tile where the dishwasher was and it just slowly leaked on the chipboard floor. You couldn't tell from inside just saw the toe base which is the piece of timber underneath your doors. See it bubbly a little bit because it was like a Laminex and it was a little bit bubbly.

It's a bit odd. Hadn't completely blown which means it's totally peeled itself off. Went under the floor and it just saw this white and green of black mould huge patch of it on the chipboard.

[Amelia] (9:18 - 9:19)

Oh no.

[Frank](9:19 - 9:33)

Yeah what I found amazing I could see that because there was no insulation under the floor. 

[Amelia]

Oh really? 

[Frank]

Yeah and with the age of it the builder never installed the insulation.

[Amelia]

That's unusual. 

[Frank]

For the age yeah it was totally skipped.

[Amelia] (9:34 - 9:34)

Yeah right.

[Frank] (9:35 - 13:24)

Yeah that wasn't real good. I was just looking at a house for someone to buy and go oh this ain't real flash. So they didn't buy it thankfully.

Yeah just patch jobs on houses too you don't know. That's the thing mould and mildew is probably being the biggest problems that we're seeing when we do renos but then you can get in and clean it out fix it cut out stuff. So you've got to look out for previous renovations and previous works you know if you're buying a place yeah but if you've got full intention to fully renovate a house you're going to rip the whole lot out anyway and do it properly.

I client just did it recently he stripped this thing bare down to the frame sealing everything and we were able to get in there measure up what he wanted because he just want all new bathrooms kitchens and insulate the whole thing do it properly. That's what the client wanted and we saw all the bare bones of the house and it was easy to then highlight what needed to be fixed and that was his little project. Not everyone does that work because they're on a different type of budget yeah can't do it and they've also got to live in their own house.

[Amelia]

Oh exactly.

[Frank]

So yeah you gotta be real careful when you're doing extensions of renos and also the age of the house there are different ways they've been constructed as well you gotta be real careful newer houses are harder to do it because the pine frames and pine trusses they can be quite difficult sometimes to do extensions off those and you're spending more money on the structure to hold it together compared to the old houses which were green hardwood used with these huge nails or if you go really old they were green hardwood but they were mortise and tenon joints with handmade nails and your saw can't cut through the timber it's so hard you know so they're all different eras of how they used to build homes our current era is not as high quality in the framing. 

[Amelia]

Cheap and cheerful. 

[Frank]

I wouldn't say cheap and cheerful because it's the most cost effective way we do it like we use radiata pine here predominantly but we used to have a lot of hardwood but now hardwoods become so expensive.

[Amelia]

Oh hasn't it?

[Frank]

Yeah you know and there's not a lot a lot of that available now there's some plantation hardwood coming online but some of that's not real good you know because it twists. 

[Amelia]

Yeah okay.

[Frank]

So this is where your designer can help you with your extensions and work with the builder generally it's great having a builder on board early on so we can make some assumptions due to the era of the house and the type of construction and then from there we can make decisions from a design perspective but also work with the engineers but you we'll still find a few surprises. 

[Amelia]

Oh I reckon. What about secret rooms and all that sort of stuff have you come across any kind of creepy stuff?

[Frank]

Oh not in houses. 

[Amelia]

Yeah okay. 

[Frank]

But I have found an old heritage commercial stuff I found a whole staircase and toilet totally blocked off and we went in there and I actually had a heritage consultant with us as well at the time because going through what we could and couldn't do we walked in and we're going oh wow this is like the third staircase in this building.

[Amelia]

Really? 

[Frank]

Yeah yeah so we get up there's a window at the top we just thought it was part of the other building because it was all it's a corner site in Launceston and there was three shops in the bottom and there was a big open space which was used previously for offices but it was all mixy-matchy and weird doorways and there was a weird bathroom at another end you had to go down a set of small stairs to get to this bathroom look like hadn't been used in a hundred years and it's a special window looking out to nowhere it was really weird but then we had this other spot and it's kind of like a door so we got it open went up the stairs and it was just like walking back in time.

The original wallpaper was still there it was just all fraying off we get up the top and all the balustrade of the handrails all original very cool and then you see in this far corner this timber panelling and had weird holes cut into it and stuff anyway going around and this box was actually the dunny on our first floor.

[Amelia] 

(13:25 - 13:25)

Wow.

[Frank] (13:26 - 14:54)

And had this really old cast iron water tank and flushed down and it had a timber toilet seat it was well worn. 

[Amelia]

Oh that's a bit gross. 

[Frank]

Well yeah wouldn't be because it was raw timber you know.

[Amelia]

You don't want a splinter. 

[Frank]

Well I think it was well smoothed because it was well used. 

[Amelia]

Oh no.

[Frank]

Yeah so that was pretty interesting to find that you know and then yeah there's secret rooms I found that in some other places in Launceston we've investigated crawling under floors and walked through doors and had one case of door closed behind us so we couldn't get out. 

[Amelia]

Oh no. 

[Frank]

That was funny.

[Amelia]

That's creepy. 

[Frank]

Yeah it was a little bit creepy but we got out so it wasn't a big deal. 

[Amelia]

You didn't have to keep the toilet because it's heritage listed.

[Frank]

Well we're not touching it we're not planning to do anything with that area. 

[Amelia]

Yeah okay. 

[Frank]

So it just stayed as is so it wasn't a big deal.

[Amelia]

Just don’t use the dunny. 

[Frank]

Well there's no water going to it anymore so yeah the old flushing mechanism might not be too good if you used it. 

[Amelia]

Oh no.

[Frank]

But we found some other interesting bits but the client didn't want to do a lot of major works up there to change it so that was okay but I just find interesting it's more the commercial buildings and people adding on and changing and chopping and changing and you smack through like I found it we did a hotel years ago in Launceston again quite old and we found an old staircase that was all boxed in.

[Amelia] (14:55 - 14:55)

Oh wow.

[Frank] (14:55 - 15:25)

But we had to pull that out because of what we were trying to do for a hotel room but we had to keep the stairwell it went up into the roof and but then you might open in through something find original stained glass window internally it's all been blocked off you find some interesting things and you know what I love about that is trying to figure out what it was it because you can't find plans for it anymore but what was it used for how could you imagine it used to be how did it operate.

[Amelia]

That's very cool. 

[Frank]

Yeah I think so. Yeah so not like the movies I must say.

Not like the movies.

[Amelia] (15:25 - 15:26)

Not like the movies. No.

[Frank] (15:26 - 16:33)

You never know if something might come up in the future. Yeah and it's a bit like uh there's an Instagram guys I follow for abandoned places and they find stuff like that. 

[Amelia]

Yeah that would be really cool.

[Frank]

Cool creepy and oh you don't want to get stuck in some of these. 

[Amelia]

Oh definitely not. 

[Frank]

But yeah look there's all these hidey holes I remember going out it was pretty modern it was built in the 50s it was a big factory out George Town.

We were walking around there was a big steel plate on the floor lifted it up there's all water in here stuck my head down into this hole and it was like a big water tank and what we figured out was actually part of the ventilation system in through the floor but it had water in there to keep it cool but it was a it wasn't overly stagnant but it was really creepy like this pit. 

[Amelia]

That's so weird. 

[Frank]

Especially when none of the lights are on and stuff was a bit weird. Yeah but we figured out we were able to get the original drawings we understood the design why they did it then sometimes you don't understand why people did things you know the designer or the builder or the developer did certain things so factories are a classic for that. Coats, Patons here would be an absolute classic for that.

[Amelia] (16:34 - 16:34)

Oh yeah.

[Frank] (16:35 - 18:37)

Even in Launceston the sewerage system one of the oldest ones in Australia these barrel vaults and just fascinating stuff that's still working to this day. Now in Europe and all the rest of it they've got stuff that's heaps older than that. 

[Amelia]

Yeah for sure.

[Frank]

But yeah I just find that fascinating how you try and retain some of this stuff too. We don't get a lot of that. Get a little bit excited when you find something but leave that then you get on with the design and figure out what you need to do for your customer.

[Amelia]

So what else have you found in terms of things that have gotten blocked? Vents and that sort of thing because that's really common too. 

[Frank]

Yeah people yeah they block the vents in the walls internally that is. Yeah and the problem of course the building doesn't breathe so then you potentially have mildew build up behind the walls ceilings and stuff like that. It's a common thing people do. Houses up until probably the 80s you know they all have vents in the walls and there's a reason why they had them.

Nowadays we don't do that. Obviously, we're trying to get thermal efficiency but we're not that much more clever because their houses all condensate and got moulded with under the current building code and that's just fact. There's a huge amount of houses like they reckon status on 40 percent of houses have a level of mould or mildew in them because the way they've been designed and operated.

[Amelia]

That's staggering isn't it? It is so you don't have a very healthy home. It can actually make you sick.

[Frank]

I've seen a customer go to hospital with the mould and mildew that was developed in the house. 

[Amelia]

That's terrible.

[Frank]

It's more common than you think so people don't see that. You can't see some of this stuff that makes you sick so that's where and I'm sorry the building code doesn't deal with this well. 

[Amelia]

Especially here in Tassie. 

[Frank]

I mean think of if you've got a high humidity area like in Queensland and Darwin.

Well I guess that's really true

[Frank]

The moisture in the air. How do you rid of it? It's inside. It's trapped inside your house. It's just doing it in a different way you know because of the heat is on the outside you're trying to keep it cool inside and here in Tassie we're trying to keep the heat in and it's cool outside.

[Amelia] (18:37 - 18:37)

Yeah.

[Frank] (18:37 - 19:10)

Either way it still causes major problems and potential health concerns and sadly enough I don't believe the National Construction Code has kept up with this and as we go for a higher star rating which like in New South Wales they're at seven. The other states have reserved judgment. They're doing more testing on it.

I believe we're going to have more unhealthy homes because of that because there is nothing really prescribed on how to deal with some of this stuff and builders are working out a lot of this stuff themselves which goes over beyond the National Construction Code. So I believe we're going to have quite a few problems.

[Amelia] (19:10 - 19:11)

That's a tomorrow problem.

[Frank] (19:12 - 22:30)

Well it should be now to be fair. It should have been sorted 10-15 years ago but just like more reports more this more that dilly daddling. Just get on with it. Use a bit of common sense. Anyway that's just my soapbox. 

[Amelia]

Let's go back to extensions.

[Frank]

Yeah well it's the same thing. You modify a house and if you don't do it properly you're going to mould up condensate all sorts of stuff if you don't do it properly and if the design has not been allowed to do that you're going to have exactly those problems because you've modified the house. 

[Amelia]

Yeah and you're right especially if it's you know closing in of spaces and that sort of thing.

[Frank]

Floors are the classic where they do an extension and they put a slab up the side and they've blocked all the vents to a timber floor house and you might find a whole patch underneath the floor that cannot have airflow and you get a little bit of moisture in there it's got nowhere to go. It builds mildew maybe mould all that and yeah it can affect your house. 

[Amelia]
So what are the take-home points for people that are looking to do a renovation or extension and they have concerns that they might you know have issues or find something surprising?

[Frank]

Yeah what they can do is the designers should know how to make the house breathe and function and a lot of the builders are getting really on top of this as well but we're going to have some future podcasts talking to people about you know building a healthier home and tips and with that so that's coming up in the future but a lot of the designers are really getting on top of this to understand what we need to put into our homes to make them healthy get the moist stale air out of the house and get fresh air into the house because no one opens their windows for crying out loud but it sounds dumb open your windows and you get fresh air through your house it's no different under the floor if you've got a timber floor open it up let it breathe it's…

[Amelia]

Common sense 

[Frank]

yeah but not to everyone sometimes it's common sense is in short supply but most builders should be on top of this and good quality builders generally are because they don't want problems on their homes they want it all to work great so it's making sure that your designers or architects is on top of this, it's the function the building's got to function well.

[Amelia]

So what do you do if you've say you've already started and then you come across something surprising like what can you do 

[Frank]

Well uh well now you fix it it's going to cost you extra money but that's where the builder will point that out and then potentially if it's a designer issue is it an engineering issue is it a plumbing issue is an electrical issue whatever the issue you get it fixed you know and that's why it's important when you're doing your budgets for reno's and extensions that okay it's got a quote for $150,000 to do it we make sure you've got 10% to 20% I'll recommend 20 on reno's because there's always some so you got that up your sleeve if you've got $150,000 to spend and that's your max well don't budget to that point pair it back to 120 you may not get what you want but you need to have that contingency I think it's very, very important when you're doing renovations money up your sleeve the unforeseen items and other potential cost overruns we've got a much higher potential with extensions and alterations look at how many people do reno their house and they're still doing it 10 years later 

[Amelia]

Oh yeah there's plenty of those people! All right we might wrap it up there folks thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. 

[Frank]

Catch ya’s later

[OUTRO] (22:40 - 22:49)

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