
Building Design, Prime Time
We are building designers from Prime Design. We created the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, to provide valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.
Building Design, Prime Time
E45. When do you need licensed professionals?
In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time podcast Frank and Amelia discuss when to use licensed professionals. Frank delves into the types of professionals in the building and construction industry that require a license in order to operate.
Frank also shares his tips and tricks to find out if the professional you want to engage is licensed. He also shares real life events of people who have engaged builders for projects who weren't licensed and the implications of using an unlicensed builder.
If you loved listening to this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time podcast be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode! There is a new one released each week!
About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004. Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au
Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.
E45. When do you need licensed professionals?
[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)
Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.
[Amelia] (0:26 - 0:42)
Welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.
[Frank] (0:42 - 0:44)
Good afternoon Amelia, how are you?
[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:45)
Good, how are you?
[Frank] (0:45 - 0:57)
Loving life coming up to Easter long weekend, looking forward to it. And the Jackies are playing tonight for the Grand Final in basketball.
[Amelia]
The Jack Jumpers, go the Jackies.
Did you watch the last game?
[Amelia] (0:57 - 0:57)
No, I didn't.
[Frank] (1:00 - 1:03)
Awesome, anyway we're not here to talk about basketball are we?
[Amelia] (1:03 - 1:09)
No, we're here to talk about licensing.
[Frank] (1:09 - 1:11)
Licensing in Tasmania's building industry. I must say it's been a good thing.
[Amelia] (1:11 - 1:17)
Oh yeah, we need it. It keeps everyone to a certain standard I guess.
[Frank] (1:17 - 1:46)
It's not a standard to a point, the downside of this licensing. So I'm a cardholder, so I have my license to do what I do as a building designer and the only downside I think is they don't have demerit points or you know. You think you have a licensing system and if someone is a fool and does dumb stuff that you should have demerit points or at least be pinged.
Sounds weird, but yeah just like your normal driver's license.
[Amelia] (1:46 - 1:47)
Can you get suspended?
[Frank] (1:47 - 2:27)
You can, but it's got to go through a whole different system. I just find it really strange. I think it should be a point system and you know certain demerit points.
Pretty simple you know, but let me just explain licensing in Tasmania. A few other states have got this. Victoria, Queensland, New South Wales bringing it in, but slightly different.
So for me as a building designer, for me to draw the plans and organise things to do with your house extension or commercial building, I need to have a license to say I'm competent doing what I'm doing. It's a good thing I've got to do professional development every year to keep my license and I've got to have proof of my insurance for what I do.
[Amelia] (2:27 - 2:30)
So you have to have like points?
[Frank] (2:30 - 2:33)
Yeah we get points for every piece of training we do.
[Amelia] (2:34 - 2:36)
And that keeps your license up is that correct?
[Frank] (2:37 - 4:12)
Basically I suppose it underpins your license that you're constantly learning. So in Tasmania it could be lots of what I do, it could be an architect as well, could be an engineer, but engineers, well that's a very loose term. So under the CBOS who we all work under, that's the Tasmanian mob that overview us.
So you could be a civil engineer, which designs roads and pipes and things, structural engineer, geotechnical engineer, environmental engineer. You could be a building services engineer, which means you're a mechanical, do AC and heating or air conditioning sorry. Hydraulic, electrical, fire systems, acoustics, energy management.
I find that one energy management. I don't know if anyone's doing that one. Usually for commercial buildings I believe.
And then you've got fire engineers. So these guys, we have a building code or the national construction code where it has all these safety things built into buildings, you know, for fire. And how to do it includes size, height, hydrants, all that.
But these engineers can come up with what is called performance solutions. So if you don't meet the requirements under the code, they can come up with another solution.
[Amelia]
That's cool.
[Frank]
It is cool. They're very good, very helpful. So then you've got other ones.
You've got building surveyor. He's the guy or she, the one stamping the plans. So checking your drawings, checking all the other consultants before it goes to get a building permit.
The other one is the permit authority. That's the guys in the council that overview it. I must say, I don't see the point of it.
[Amelia] (4:12 - 4:15)
Why would you have it if you already have a building surveyor check it over?
[Frank] (4:16 - 4:17)
Yep, 100%.
[Amelia] (4:17 - 4:19)
Yeah, okay. That makes no sense to me either.
[Frank] (4:20 - 4:25)
The building surveyor has a higher qualification than the permit authority, but the permit authority actually has a greater say.
[Amelia] (4:25 - 4:25)
Really?
[Frank] (4:25 - 4:57)
Go figure that out.
[Amelia]
That's odd.
[Frank]
Or downright stupid if you ask me. The building surveyor has these massive insurances and all the guys I know work really hard at what they do and they stay on top of the codes, the Australian standards. You think of all those other services I just mentioned, they have to know about those as well. Work with these guys and also with disability access, the access to premise standard, all this type of stuff.
Yet the permit authority person at the council can actually stop the project. Figure that out.
[Amelia] (4:57 - 4:59)
Even though it's already gone through.
[Frank] (5:00 - 5:06)
Yeah, don't get me started on it. It's just bureaucracy. It's just another step.
And they're talking about bringing another one in. Can't wait for that.
[Amelia] (5:09 - 5:10)
Beep.
[Frank] (5:10 - 6:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have to have licences. Builders obviously have licences as well.
And there's different levels of builders licenses. And great thing. So it's been a good thing in a lot of ways that the legitimate, really good people in the industry do all the right things and learn more, get better at what they do.
Unfortunately, there are some people in there that don't think the same way and work below what we'd consider a reasonable standard. And they seem to get their licenses renewed, and they just do a poor job of it. I'm not just saying builders.
I mean, all these types of people. And that's like with every industry. I mean, I shouldn't be bitch and moan about it because every industry's got people that don't work as well as they should.
But here's where it gets a little bit really nasty. This is on the building side of things. There are people out there calling themselves builders, which technically they can't because they don't have a license.
And they go around spruiking themselves as builder and doing work for people without a license, where they should have a license.
[Amelia] (6:12 - 6:15)
So they're a glorified handyman or something similar.
[Frank] (6:15 - 7:21)
Yeah, or builder wannabe. End of the day, there's a reason why we have licensing. So if you are looking at getting anything done on your house, that if it needs a permit, or even if it doesn't need a permit, you still need a builder.
There are certain home handyman stuff that can be done. That's fine, but it's pretty minor in comparison. So I'll use a couple of examples.
Bathrooms in Tasmania, if you want to put a new bathroom, upgrade your bathroom, you do not need, in general terms, a few conditions of this, you do not need to get a permit. You may need to get a plumbing permit if you're changing where the fixture is, or you're putting a new bathroom in. Yeah, fair enough, you get a plumbing permit.
Otherwise, you can just get it built because the builder building it should be competent enough to make sure that it is waterproof and it'll never leak. And put all the fixtures, employ the plumbers, the electricians, and put the tiles in, and make everything work beautifully. That is the loophole.
There are people claiming to be builders doing this type of work, and then they end up investing, you know, could be 25, 50,000 bucks on a bathroom. The thing fails, it leaks.
[Amelia] (7:21 - 7:24)
So what happens if they're unlicensed? Does that mean...
[Frank] (7:24 - 7:25)
Not a lot.
[Amelia] (7:25 - 7:28)
You can, I guess you can take them to court, and that's really it.
[Frank] (7:28 - 7:28)
If you can find them.
[Amelia] (7:28 - 7:29)
Yeah, right.
[Frank] (7:29 - 8:01)
So, early takeaway, anyone you work with, that you choose to do work on your house, do they have a building license? And the need to produce it, and you can go online to find it. Alternative, just ring the council, or ring us.
Ring a building surveyor. Anyone can find it. We've got access to the CVOS database.
You just type in the name. Simple as that. You type my name in there, and I'll come up with a licence.
And also have contracts. I don't care how small it is. Have a written agreement for the work.
So then you're not going to get caught. You know where everyone stands. Sounds simple enough, doesn't it?
[Amelia] (8:01 - 8:08)
But not everyone thinks of it, especially if it's for a smaller project. Like if it's for a little bathroom rental, or something like that.
[Frank] (8:08 - 8:32)
But it's still 20,000, 30,000 bucks. That's not little. Yeah, well, that's very true.
It's expensive to do it properly. But unfortunately, like I was just talking to some guys the other day, and they were talking about a next builder or whatever lost his license. But he's still going around targeting single women, and elderly couples, or elderly singles, and doing work from building comps off a builder, taking the money, doing a rubbish job, and run.
[Amelia] (8:33 - 8:33)
That's terrible.
[Frank] (8:33 - 8:44)
He did a job that apparently took $200,000, and there wasn't $200,000 worth of work. He got caught taking the magistrates. So he got pinged 40,000 bucks.
[Amelia] (8:44 - 8:46)
For a $200,000 job.
[Frank] (8:46 - 8:47)
And he didn't have to pay the money back.
[Amelia] (8:47 - 8:48)
What?
[Frank] (8:48 - 8:53)
So, as a business model, that's pretty good, isn't it? That's a disgusting thing to say.
[Amelia] (8:53 - 8:57)
Yeah, there's obviously some loopholes there.
[Frank] (8:57 - 10:07)
Yeah, it's rubbish. Yeah, don't trust someone on their word. Ask them to provide the evidence. Are you licensed? Can you do this work? Can you give me a contract?
I don't care how small the job is. If you're having a written agreement between people, happy days. The other side of it, we come across as a bit of this example I'm going to give you.
As a building designer, people come in, oh, I've already got plans done. Can you sign off on these plans? So I've had everything from a retired architect, to architectural students, to designers, architects on the mainland, doing plans for someone, or actually retired people doing it, and giving a bunch of plans, and they think they can just go ahead and get it done.
Then you can tell them, look, someone needs to put their license against this. And we just had one recently, and they got it from, it was a company in Victoria that does kit homes, and nothing wrong with what they do. I've heard of them before.
They've been going around a long time, providing all good drawings, no problem. But they don't comply with the Tasmanian minimum requirements. So when I do a drawing for a house, there is a minimum drawing requirement I need to meet.
[Amelia] (10:07 - 10:11)
So their detail of their drawings didn't meet those requirements?
[Frank] (10:11 - 10:11)
No, no.
[Amelia] (10:11 - 10:12)
Yeah, okay.
[Frank] (10:12 - 10:43)
They don't know that, because they don't probably have to do much in Tasmania. They may not even be licensed. So the easiest thing, they've got the design, and we said, well, no problem.
We'll just re-document it as it has to be. It's going in my license. We'll use our engineers, our surveyors, our geotech, everyone that we trust to do the job properly, and make sure it gets passed.
Then the builder is, he's happy, because he knows it's done right. Imagine the builder finding out that the drawings aren't right, doesn't give him all the information, and then there's a mistake on site. Who do you blame?
[Amelia] (10:44 - 10:51)
Yeah, that's very true. Well, the designer would probably blame the kit home company and the kit home.
[Frank] (10:51 - 11:51)
If it's the one and the same, or they blame the builder. Oh, you should have thought of that. The builder's always left with a can, and it's not quite right.
So a good set of quality drawings should be done for your project, where it needs a permit. That's just residential. It could be commercial.
It doesn't matter what it is. It's more common than you think. This actually happens, or someone maybe doesn't know the rules.
I find that a bit hard, because the rules have been around since 2003 in Tasmania. They do some designs and sketches. Here you go.
No worries. Walk away. That's not quite right, is it?
[Amelia]
No.
[Frank]
You know, people call themselves architects, and I've seen this too. They've done, been in uni, they've worked, but they don't have a license.
Well, you can't call yourself an architect then. You know, you're a glorified draftsperson that's done the qualifications, but you haven't got a license, haven't got the insurance, and you don't bother to keep learning professional development. You're not.
You're not an architect. Same as you're not a building designer, unless you've got a ticket. Got your license there. Cardholding member as such.
[Amelia] (11:52 - 11:52)
Yeah.
[Frank] (11:52 - 12:26)
So it's very important for everyone to be aware of that. Same with decks in the backyard. Sometimes they need a permit, sometimes they don't need a permit.
So then make sure the guy building it, or girl building it, is licensed. Then you don't have a problem. But there's some great home handy people that can do small stuff within the house.
You know, changing doors, bits and pieces, internal stuff, not taking out structural walls. That's a big one. You could renovate your kitchen, things like that.
It's not classed as pure building work. It's cosmetic work. So that's all doable.
Again, have clear agreements.
[Amelia] (12:26 - 12:29)
Yes, definitely agree with that. I've been burnt before.
[Frank] (12:30 - 12:35)
Yes. Yeah, you have. You're not the only one.
Because expectations are a big thing, aren't they?
[Amelia] (12:35 - 12:37)
Oh, they definitely are.
[Frank] (12:38 - 13:10)
Another thing I want to point out with licensing, and this is with builders, and it's been unfortunate. So many builders have gone broke, and I won't make comments about how, why. I mean, it's just very sad what's happened to a lot of people in court.
But I don't think it's unreasonable for you to ask the builder, you're about to go, you're happy with this person, you connect, the pricing seems okay, we've already spoken about what you should expect with your pricing, a fully detailed quote. Do you mind getting your accountant to provide a letter to say that you're financially sound to do this project?
[Amelia] (13:11 - 13:14)
I don't know any people that have asked that question.
[Frank] (13:14 - 13:20)
I do. Because I asked them, I said, just check it out. And they did it.
The builder did it. Happy days.
[Amelia] (13:20 - 13:21)
Oh, that's awesome.
[Frank] (13:21 - 13:46)
I know another builder in Launceston that does it as, don't even have to ask him, he'll provide it. It's part of his package to show that I am financially viable. But you know, not just viable, I'm financially sound and I can complete your project, you know?
Because then the accountant's putting their reputation, their name online as well. I think it's a good thing. Considering what's been going on all around Australia, I think it's a very, I think it's the right thing to ask.
And if they refuse, what are they hiding?
[Amelia] (13:46 - 13:47)
Yeah, that's very true.
[Frank] (13:48 - 13:55)
Yeah, that's in a nutshell. So always ask for a license. If they don't, well, they're an owner builder wannabe or builder wannabe.
[Amelia] (13:55 - 14:07)
So what about the other people that you were talking about? So you're talking about the engineers, energy, all of those sort of people. So do you do the same thing with them as well? How does that work?
[Frank] (14:08 - 14:26)
Well, if you're running your own project and you've got someone doing the drawings and you have to organise your engineer and organise your own geotech and all that, by all means, we don't do that. We organise it for you with our preferred consultants because we have copies of their insurance on hand. We check it all the time.
[Amelia] (14:27 - 14:29)
And we've built those relationships over the years.
[Frank] (14:29 - 15:33)
You've built those relationships. And they're not the cheapest. It's not about the cost.
It's about the quality of what they provide and how they run their business. Okay, to me, that's very important. And the service they provide and the after service, you know.
I'll use a geotech, for example. Very fortunate here in Launceston. We've got two great geotech guys here that we love using.
And I'll just do a plug. Geoton Geotechnics and Tasman Geotechnics. Fantastic teams.
Brilliant at what they do. Highly recommend them if you need a reference there. We had a problem on site.
It was the builder and the excavator driver. Hey, we've dug this out. The way it's been described in the report is different to what we found on site.
That could be a whole bunch of reasons. So engineer goes out as well. The geotech goes out.
They've gone through it. They checked it. It goes back to the office.
They go through their tests. Nah, in this case, they said, no, we're happy with this. We'll stand by the report.
Yes, there's some anomalies, but we feel it's going to be fine. Other times we go, holy crap. We didn't expect to see that there.
There's a patch of this.
[Amelia] (15:34 - 15:34)
Whatever, yep.
[Frank] (15:34 - 16:27)
Whatever rubbish or someone's buried something or there's an old tree. I've been buried, yeah. Then they're there to help give that service, the after, the report service.
And that's what we expect of these guys. Same with the engineering. They take responsibility of that.
And so do we with what we do. If there's an issue on site, we're out there having a look at it. There may be a cost.
There may not be a cost, subject to what it is. So the geotech guys are licensed. My structural guy has got a license.
Structural engineer, I should be respectful. Civil engineers doing driveways designs. I've got a license.
And then if you're doing commercial, we don't necessarily have to do this in residential. Someone doing the air conditioning and heating in commercial, they need a license. When you're in commercial world, you need these specialists.
It's not like a house is generally a lot simpler. Yeah, so they're what you call your services, licensed service designers, yeah.
[Amelia] (16:28 - 16:35)
So what are the take home points for anyone getting started with designing and trying to find licensed professionals?
[Frank] (16:36 - 17:04)
Well, that shouldn't be too hard because majority of the people that you're going to contact should have a license. But ask them, can you show me your license and what you're qualified for? You know, it's easy peasy.
Most people pull it out of their wallet or their purse, here is my card. You know, it's that simple. If you want to use someone that doesn't have a license for any of the design stuff, that's fine.
That's up to you. Then you may work with them. That's okay.
I'll use the example, you might work with someone to do the design of your house. That's fine.
[Amelia] (17:05 - 17:12)
I guess people have to be aware though that the designer that you do go through may choose to not sign off on that and redraw it.
[Frank] (17:12 - 18:00)
Well, they won't. They won't. They flat out won't.
I'll say that right out of the gate. We won't. I'll be very surprised if anyone else does unless they have a built relationship with that person.
Okay. We redraw it and go through all the processes. If we're going to, if there's going to be a mistake, it's going to be our mistake.
I don't want to sign off on someone else's mistake. Because there's also this philosophy within how it's being built. Some designers have no problem putting lots of box gutters in.
I've expressed many times how I dislike box gutters and the damage they can do. But I will do them, but they could be designed right. But I've seen plenty of guys bring stuff in that can't.
I've seen it where the designers from the mainland have designed this roof. All looks lovely. Yet you will not fit the insulation in that they've nominated.
It physically can't fit.
[Amelia] (18:00 - 18:00)
Oh.
[Frank] (18:01 - 18:01)
Yeah.
[Amelia] (18:01 - 18:03)
Then why have they designed it like that? Seems dumb.
[Frank] (18:03 - 18:20)
I don't know. What sort of beauty? It was 200 mil thick roof.
So underside of sheeting to the underside of plaster. And they nominated R4 bat. And from memory, that's 290 or 200 millimeters deep.
It won't fit.
[Amelia] (18:21 - 18:21)
No.
[Frank] (18:22 - 18:30)
It's jammed in there. So then it doesn't work. Then the damn thing's going to condensate. And it won't breathe. And you grow mold in it. And then you're going to have a sick home.
[Amelia] (18:31 - 18:32)
Oh, yuck.
[Frank] (18:33 - 19:01)
Flat roofs are very popular with certain designers. They're an accident waiting to happen as well. Because they aren't breathing OK.
The water out. All these types of things. Yeah, they're designing it.
They don't have a license. They don't give a toss. So and I've said it to people.
For one thing, I'm not going to draw that up because it won't work. A lot of architects and designers will not take on someone else's stuff because, well, I can say it won't work. It's going to cause you problems.
It's going to be a mould factory. Or it's going to leak.
[Amelia] (19:02 - 19:04)
Yeah, it's more than just looking pretty, isn't it?
[Frank] (19:04 - 19:22)
So whatever we design, we've got to keep it watertight so water can't get into the building or have a chance of failure. Then we've got to make sure inside the building that the moisture gets out. You know, there's a bit of science to this stuff.
And also choosing the right products. All that type of thing too.
[Amelia] (19:23 - 19:28)
All right, we might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design Primetime Podcast.
[Frank] (19:28 - 19:28)
Catch ya’s later.
[OUTRO] (19:40 - 19:41)
You’re listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.