E46. What do you mean a house needs to breathe?

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast Frank and Amelia discuss why and how it's important for your house to breathe.  Frank shares his experiences on when houses cannot breathe and the implications. 

Frank discusses the National Construction Code (NCC) and how problems have occurred because some breathability aspects of a home are not mandated to be inspected.  Frank and Amelia talk about real situations where homes have been built to code and yet there have been problems with the project.

This is a great episode if you would like to hear the passion and frustration with the industry and what to look out for with your new build or extension project. 

Be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode! There is a new one released each week!

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E46. What do you mean a house needs to breathe?

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designer's perspective.

[Amelia] (0:36 - 0:42)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:43 - 0:44)

G'day Amelia, how are we?

[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:46)

We may as well call you our co-host.

[Frank] (0:46 - 0:51)

Okay sure, co-host, I'm good with that. You can't get rid of me can you?

[Amelia] (0:51 - 0:54)

You're always here like a bad smell.

[Frank] (0:54 - 0:55)

Yeah pretty well.

[Amelia] (0:56 - 0:57)

What are we talking about today?

[Frank] (0:58 - 1:39)

Well I thought we'd talk about making your house breathe with lightweight claddings. Let me expand on that a little bit further. So lightweight cladding is like putting weatherboards or these architectural sheets on the outside of your house, that's your external cladding.

The majority of them require painting, they're all different shapes, grooves in them, panels, you know it's very popular. Some are raw timber, some are painted raw timber. There's so many lightweight products now, it is utterly amazing and we can do some really cool things with it and make great shapes and picture frame windows and have windows extended out past the lightweight cladding and we can just do some wicked stuff with it.

[Amelia] (1:39 - 1:41)

Oh it's so popular at the moment.

[Frank] (1:41 - 2:03)

It is, it is, it's great. But there's a couple of downfalls with it but nothing that's not insurmountable that can be dealt with and what I'm going to talk about now is making the house breathe. So I'll go back to using bricks okay, so you've got a stud frame, timber, put your plaster, got your insulation, you've got impermeable membrane, remember that impermeable membrane okay.

[Amelia] (2:03 - 2:05)

That's a big word for the end of the week.

[Frank](2:05 - 3:36)

It is, but it's been a game changer. I said impermeable didn't I? 

[Amelia]

You did.

[Frank]

I'm a goose.

[Amelia]

It's supposed to be permeable isn't it?

[Frank]

Vapour permeable, fair dinkum, big week. Vapour permeable pliable wall membrane okay. So then your house can breathe. Moisture can come through but it needs to then go through that membrane and where does the moisture go?

It's got to go into with bricks. Very simple. We run a 40 to 50 mil gap. We call it the cavity. So it can go into there. We've spoken about this before. You have these little slots in the bottom, your brickwork. If you've got a concrete slab we call them weep holes. Moisture can go out, air can go in, circulation, the house can breathe.

Timber floors, a little bit different. We spoke about that too. So lightweight claddings.

We just described it could be cement sheet, it could be timber, it could be plastic, it could be tin, you know Colorbond. In the past we used to just fix it straight to the frame. It was a good idea at the time, but as we're making our houses better insulated and less leaky, you know the air doesn't get out from the inside as easy, the moisture is going through there and then the moisture's got nowhere to go.

And then it's going to the back of the product or it's going to and leaking down hitting the bottom of the frame, rotting out the bottom plate or rotting out the back of the product, making the insulation soggy, all those types of things. And guess what? Grow some little nasty things like mould.

[Amelia] (3:36 - 3:37)

Oh yuck.

[Frank] (3:37 - 4:40)

Yep. And as we make our houses more thermally efficient, as the government is mandating us to do, it is getting harder and harder to do that. So what do you do?

You put a gap in there and then it can breathe. Sounds simple, makes sense. But in lots of parts of Australia, I'm noticing that it's not mandatory to put this gap in.

Now in Tasmania, our conditions we’re climate zone 7 means nothing to most people we're talking to, but it's under the National Construction Code (NCC). So we're considered a bit of a colder climate here in Tasmania. Our humidity levels can be quite high, so a lot of moisture in the air and it's cold.

So very easy to hit a dew point and the air hits a surface, bang, turns into liquid, and then potentially causing problems, generally causes problems. So what we're finding though, lightweight cladding is going on, the houses are performing better, more insulation, and then we're seeing on some of these outside claddings, you could see the wet strips from the outside where it's wet on the walls.

[Amelia] (4:41 - 4:41)

Oh, you have to imagine.

[Frank] (4:41 - 4:42)

From the inside.

[Amelia] (4:42 - 4:44)

Yeah, from the inside. Oh, gross.

[Frank] (4:44 - 6:05)

Well, it doesn't look gross from the outside, but you can just see a pattern because you can see where all the studs are, you can see where all the noggins are in the frame. 

[Amelia]

Where it's sitting. 

[Frank]

Yeah, where it's sitting. Anyway, there's been a lot of studies in Tasmania on this. Dr. Mark Dewsbury from the University of Tasmania, he's well respected and liked by a lot of people in the industry. And there's a number of other people involved in it as well, and other industry experts.

And they've recommended to put a gap in there, call it the cavity. And this is one of the few good things, I'm not going to beg our government here or anything like that. They were proactive, got all these testing done on a lot of houses all over the state.

And CBOS, the Consumer Building and Occupation Services, put out a guide, which is the Tasmanian Designers Guide for Ventilating the House. And if you're in Europe and a few other cold climate places, you probably know all this stuff already. But for Tasmania, it was basically mandatory to put battens on the wall.

So it takes the cladding, it doesn't go hard up against the wall frame, there's a gap. And we call that the batten. Like you put a batten on the roof before you put your roof sheeting on, or your tiles.

So you've got a gap in there, great, it can drain. But sometimes they're putting the battens horizontal, so your studs are vertical, goes on horizontal, but then it blocks the air gap.

[Amelia] (6:05 - 6:06)

Oh, so it's moisture.

[Frank] (6:06 - 6:09)

Well, then it comes to this batten, and it can't go anywhere.

[Amelia] (6:10 - 6:10)

It can't get out.

[Frank] (6:10 - 6:42)

So it's really got to be a vented batten. So you can buy these battens with lots of holes in it, or the battens got slots in it, lots of stuff like that. So then the air can get through, the moisture can get through.

So those things have to be considered. But a lot of the really good brands of claddings will give alternatives on how to batten. So then the air can go from bottom to top, top to bottom, moisture can go top to bottom, and it becomes unrestricted.

Also got to be remembering at the bottom, it's got to drain at the bottom, that you don't want creepy crawlies coming in, do you?

[Amelia] (6:42 - 6:44)

Oh, no way, yuck.

[Frank] (6:44 - 6:46)

We've got a couple of special creepy crawlies here in Tasmania.

[Amelia] (6:46 - 6:49)

Well, we have too many, if you ask me.

[Frank] (6:49 - 6:50)

Yeah, I've got those beautiful huntsmans.

[Amelia] (6:51 - 6:51)

Oh, no.

[Frank] (6:52 - 7:33)

Oh, best thing ever. I've got to share this story. I've got some family that have come over from the Netherlands.

And first day, they're in our house, and settling in, a young fella, and walk into our bedroom. You know, I went to use the ensuite, come walking out, a dirty great big huntsman on the ceiling. I thought, you beauty, here we go, education time.

So I grab them all, come around. My wife freaks out. She doesn't like them, a bit like you, I think.

[Amelia]

I'm not a fan.

[Frank]

And I show the young fella, and he goes, oh, that is magnificent. You know, it's cool.

Yeah, yeah, they're harmless and all that. But for anyone with huntsmans, just a brown, furry looking big spider. But yeah, it freaks out a lot of people, because they love running across rooms.

[Amelia] (7:33 - 7:34)

And jumping, even.

[Frank] (7:34 - 7:56)

Oh, yeah, you've got some of those spiders that jump. Yeah, they're always fun. You've got the wolf spiders, and things like that, and a few other special ones.

So you don't want them going up your wall cavity. So we end up putting a, like a mesh at the bottom, and we use that for bushfire control as well. So kind of sealing it off, so it's all safe, you know.

[Amelia] (7:56 - 7:58)

From the bugs and the creepy crawlies.

[Speaker 1] (7:58 - 8:20)

The bugs and creepy crawlies. So that's a common thing too. I just want to share that with everyone.

If anyone has a builder that wants to directly fix, or do maintenance on your house, or whatever, do something with your wall cladding. Get it on the battens, get it to breathe, you know. Make your house breathe.

Less chance of mould build up. You're trying to reduce that chance of mould build up, okay. And it’ll stop the creepy crawlies coming in as well.

[Amelia] (8:20 - 8:21)

Yeah, I'm down for that.

[Frank] (8:22 - 8:31)

What do you think about your brick veneer house? I'm just going to ponder a thought. So if you've got the weep holes, creepy crawlies can get through the weep holes.

I'm just going to leave that with you.

[Amelia] (8:32 - 8:35)

To be fair, I had the pest man come in yesterday.

[Frank] (8:35 - 8:42)

Oh, they're awesome. 

[Amelia]

They are awesome. 

[Frank] (8:43 - 9:13)

Yes, they're very good. I'll just plug for Michael from M&M Pest Control does a great job.

Yeah, so that's just a little thing. It doesn't matter what cladding you have, lightweight cladding, put it on battens and make sure the battens are vented so they've got holes through them so it can breathe. If it's just a solid batten, yeah, you're back to where you started, okay.

I just want to share that. This is just a quick one to share. Even though a lot of the designers and builders are getting aware of it, but some might try and cut corners and just be aware of that.

I went to a Healthy Homes function just recently with...

[Amelia] (9:13 - 9:14)

Zara D’Cotta.

[Frank] (9:14 - 9:38)

Zara D’Cotta, thank you. And that was wonderful and how passionate. We had her on the show and she was so passionate about it.

And this is part of that. It's trying to make your house healthier. We're all about that and you'll see more stuff on our website coming up in the future.

We'll be putting more tips, tricks, ideas, and common ways to make your house healthier, warmer, and more accessible as well.

[Amelia] (9:38 - 9:57)

And it's all about starting at the beginning, I think too. It's not just after you move in and opening your windows and all that stuff. It actually starts right at the very beginning and the design and the materials that you use and how that all plays a part in what you need to do to make your house more breathable.

[Frank] (9:57 - 10:07)

Oh, very much so. Yeah, yeah. To reduce the chance of mould buildup.

Because you can't see it. It's behind everything generally. If it gets through the plaster, you're in real trouble.

[Amelia] (10:08 - 10:11)

You only know something's wrong when you probably start getting sick.

[Frank] (10:11 - 10:18)

Yep, yep. And we spoke about that with Zara and it was fascinating. They reckon 40% of new builds have got mould in it.

[Amelia] (10:18 - 10:22)

That's absolutely shocking. It's horrifying, isn't it? I couldn't believe that.

[Frank] (10:22 - 10:54)

Yeah. But when I think about it, and I remember talking to Kyle Zanetto, and we're at that function, where the moisture content of the frame that we put in this, the timber frame that holds everything together. What happens has been it got wet or your frame, because it kind of rains here a fair bit at times, especially during our winter, that you might have a stud frame for your house sitting in the rain, hasn't got its hat on yet. They haven't put the roof sheeting on yet.

Because they can't because it's raining, you know. So that means your frame is wet as. And your floor, if it's a timber floor, it's wet as.

[Amelia] (10:55 - 10:57)

And do they still just sheet over that?

[Frank] (10:58 - 10:59)

Yeah, generally, yeah, they do.

[Amelia] (10:59 - 11:00)

Wow.

[Frank] (11:00 - 11:06)

So then instantly you've got wet timber, what's going to happen? You're mouldy. Yeah.

Sometimes it gets, I've actually seen it where the frame's already mouldy.

[Amelia] (11:06 - 11:07)

Really?

[Frank] (11:07 - 11:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seriously. 

[Amelia]

Is that not inspected though?

[Frank]

No, there's nothing in legislation to inspect the building, The building surveyor isn't going to say anything, because it's not part of the code.

[Amelia] (11:16 - 11:21)

Why is it not part of the code? To have an unhealthy house, like what…

[Frank] (11:21 - 11:46)

Okay, you know that I'm going to get my soapbox in. The reason is because they can't get their shit together at the National Construction Code and the ABCB. They can't all agree.

And I've spoken about this before and also on Dwayne Pearce's podcast. Under the new National Construction Code, where we spoke about waterproofing, you know, it says there, waterproof this way. But it's contradictory to the Australian standards.

[Amelia](11:46 - 11:47)

Why would they do that?

[Frank] (11:47 - 12:31)

Well, that's what I think. They only had three years to get the damn thing right. It's just dumb.

And it leaves builders exposed which way to do it. It leaves us exposed which one to do. We've chosen a way on which way we're doing it.

And we've spoken to a lot of builders. How are you going to do it? Which way?

Okay, we're all covered. But isn't it lunacy? 

[Amelia]

That's insane.

[Frank]

Why can't they get simple things right? You know, that it all is consistent. I don't understand. And there's other things in there too that doesn't make sense. And the mould thing is a classic. There's nothing in there.

We're only just now starting to, oh, you should ventilate your roof space. You know, I'm talking about ventilating the gap, the cavity in your wall. Because the bushfire mandated that we had to tighten everything up. So it wouldn't breathe. So it caused more problems.

[Amelia] (12:31 - 12:32)

Yeah, it's catch 22.

[Frank] (12:33 - 12:44)

Yeah, moisture doesn't get out. It gets mouldy. Simple.

So there's a few builders now really on top of this. They'll put dehumidifiers inside the house to get the moisture out. And then they test the timber.

[Amelia] (12:44 - 12:48)

So why are they not doing inspections where they test the timber anyway?

[Frank] (12:48 - 12:49)

Who's paying for that?

[Amelia] (12:49 - 12:51)

Well, it should be part of the NCC.

[Frank] (12:51 - 13:40)

Well, it's not. The mandated inspections in Tasmania are not in the NCC. It's under the Tasmanian legislation.

So the government dictates on the inspections. 

 [Amelia]
Wow. 

 [Frank]

How dumb is that? The government can't even organise our own budgets half the time. So why would you get them to mandate inspections? That should be done by the director of building control, the guy that runs the consumer building occupational services, the guy that overarching of the Tasmanian building and every state's got one.

And none of them are alike. What a surprise there. That we should do more inspections.

That would be a good one, wouldn't it? What about putting your installation in properly? No one inspects that.

How to say if your windows been installed properly and sealed properly? No one inspects that. Does anyone do a draft test?

Like is your house or the windows and doors aren't supposed to leak air? Okay.

[Amelia] (13:40 - 13:42)

Nobody tests that either.

[Frank] (13:42 - 13:45)

No one tests that. There's so many things that should be tested.

[Amelia] (13:45 - 13:52)

So even though those things would be specified on a plan, they may not be implemented on site.

[Frank] (13:52 - 13:53)

Or done well.

[Amelia] (13:53 - 13:55)

Yeah, right. Interesting.

[Frank] (13:55 - 13:56)

Pretty stupid.

[Amelia] (13:56 - 13:58)

Yeah. That's really surprising.

[Frank] (13:58 - 14:15)

Yep. This is the way it is. This is the dumb shit I've got to deal with and drives me mental because it reduces the quality of the build.

So close again, I'm talking about the cavity in the wall with the lightweight cladding, right? Who's checking that the battens are the right battens and they're vented or making sure that that cavity is going to vent properly?

[Amelia] (14:15 - 14:17)

So it's not picked up at the framing stage.

[Frank] (14:17 - 14:20)

Well, the frame's there, but now you put the cladding on. 

[Amelia] (14:20 - 14:21)

Yeah, true. Who's going to check that?

[Frank] (14:22 - 14:23)

Who's checking this stuff?

[Amelia] (14:23 - 14:23)

Yeah.

[Frank] (14:23 - 14:36)

A quality builder will always do a quality job. A builder that has not been trained or shown, he's not, I'm not saying they're ignorant or anything, but I've never done it that way. Then who's keeping them accountable?

It’s Scary.

[Amelia] (14:37 - 14:37)

It is scary.

[Frank] (14:38 - 15:04)

So there's a big push in the industry from all different facets that we're trying to get more inspections done, more checks. I mean, if you were a homeowner and you had to spend, oh, let's just say each inspections, let's say $250, just pick a number, say 300. And you added another, say, you already have a mandated five, you add another six, $1,800 of inspections on your house to make sure it's done right.

Would you pay that?

[Amelia] (15:05 - 15:08)

In the large scheme of things, I mean, $1,800 is nothing.

[Frank] (15:09 - 15:29)

It's not, is it? So why don't we do it? That's a good question.

Even your waterproofing for your bathroom, the biggest failure rates in housing, put a balloon in the hole, in the waste, fill the thing with water, put a mark on the wall, let it sit there for 24, 48 hours, see if it leaks. No, it's not mandated.

[Amelia] (15:29 - 15:29)

Wow.

[Frank] (15:30 - 15:34)

Dumb decisions, dumb. I don't understand it.

[Amelia] (15:34 - 15:34)

It's shocking.

[Frank] (15:34 - 15:41)

Yep, exactly. So even though I'm talking about doing all this stuff with cavities and getting the thing to breathe, if no one's checking, it doesn't mean it will breathe.

[Amelia] (15:44 - 15:46)

So who do you go to if you do want it checked?

[Frank] (15:47 - 15:52)

I mean, like- Your building surveyor. Your building surveyor is more than happy to do it. Most people don't think about getting it paid for.

[Amelia] (15:52 - 15:55)

No, and because it's not factored in, is it?

[Frank] (15:55 - 16:27)

Of course it's not factored in. It's not mandated. It's not a requirement.

But there's some builders I know that will do this stuff properly every day of the week. They're very proud of their work. No one's perfect.

Everyone needs accountability. We do it here in the office too. Everyone double checks everyone's work and all that.

You know, it's just what we do. It's a mindset. So why should the government be setting this low standard when we could set up so much higher for not a huge amount of costs?

Builders aren't perfect. Designers aren't perfect. Engineers aren't perfect.

But we've all got each other's back to try and get a house that is close to perfect based on the design.

[Amelia] (16:27 - 16:39)

Be interesting to see if there are any court cases of people suing other people because they've had really unhealthy homes, but yet it's still to code.

[Frank] (16:39 - 16:54)

Oh, I know of that. Really? Yep.

I've seen houses with condensate. I don't know the details of the court case. I got released some documents. I probably shouldn't have. A few of us were sharing in some videos. The house was condensate.

It was leaking through a downlight and the house was built as per code.

[Amelia] (16:55 - 16:56)

Who's to blame there?

[Frank] (16:56 - 16:58)

It will come at the builder.

[Amelia] (16:58 - 17:01)

It will come at the builder even though they've built it to code.

[Frank] (17:02 - 17:05)

100% The legislation holds the builder to account.

[Amelia] (17:05 - 17:07)

Really? Wow.

[Frank] (17:07 - 17:09)

And that's why being a builder sucks.

[Amelia] (17:09 - 17:14)

That does suck because they've just followed the rules as per what they are. Wow.

[Frank] (17:14 - 17:15)

Yeah, it's pretty hard.

[Amelia] (17:15 - 17:23)

What do the public do? Where do they even go from here when there's no mandation of any of this stuff?

[Frank] (17:24 - 17:36)

You can customise this. Everything we're talking about is minimum. So if you went to your builder, look, I'd like to have extra inspections.

I'd like to have this, that and the other. Are you cool with that? I'd be surprised if they say they're not cool.

As long as you're happy to pay for it, I don't care.

[Amelia] (17:37 - 17:37)

Yeah.

[Frank] (17:37 - 17:49)

A building surveyor would be happy to do this for you or another expert of insulation or whatever. I'm sure they'd be happy to do these inspections for you. Tell you what, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than coming afterwards and trying to fix it.

[Amelia] (17:49 - 17:50)

Oh, I reckon.

[Frank] (17:50 - 17:54)

Or your house isn't performing with the insulation because it hasn't been installed well, you know.

[Amelia] (17:54 - 17:57)

Or your health problems can't be reversed.

[Frank] (17:57 - 18:01)

Oh, yeah. It was Zara sharing. She went into a brand new house and within three weeks it was mould in there.

[Amelia] (18:02 - 18:03)

Yeah, that's horrendous.

[Frank] (18:03 - 18:28)

And she suffered really badly because of it. And she's hypersensitive to it. So she'd know.

The rest of us would probably just suffer with it. But it may not be a lot of mould either, you know. So it's still there.

Our construction techniques aren't 100% right. I mean, what drives me nuts? It's been done elsewhere in the world, right?

Europe, America, they've got cold climates. But you've got to remember, there's not just cold climate issue. This is a tropics problem as well.

[Amelia] (18:28 - 18:31)

You know, humidity, moisture. 

[Frank]

It goes the other way. 

[Amelia]

Exactly.

[Frank] (18:31 - 18:49)

It goes the other way. You're trying to keep the inside cool and heat outside so it does it in reverse. Same problem. You've got dew points, moisture, mould. Simple. So why do we have one construction code and we all have to build it the same yet we have all these different climates?

Australia is a big place.

[Amelia] (18:49 - 18:49)

It is.

[Frank] (18:49 - 18:54)

It's huge. We've got tropics. We've got stuff, you know, next door neighbour is Antarctica.

[Amelia] (18:55 - 18:55)

Yep.

[Frank] (18:55 - 19:09)

And you've got the other extreme, Western Australia. To the, you know, East-West. The extreme differences in our conditions, yet we build, we have the same construction techniques, just adapted slightly different to each climate.

Not quite right, is it?

[Amelia] (19:10 - 19:11)

No, it doesn't add up for me.

[Frank] (19:11 - 19:18)

No. But anyway, I think there's a bit of a movement going on with this because builders are sick of poor construction.

[Amelia] (19:19 - 19:25)

I'd be really interested to see any comments that other people have about this because it is important, I feel.

[Frank] (19:26 - 19:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it started with me trying to explain some of the bit of cladding, but it's no good if it's not installed properly.

[Amelia] (19:32 - 19:34)

Exactly. 100%.

[Frank] (19:34 - 19:37)

So I'm going to ask, take homes.

[Amelia] (19:40 - 19:41)

Other than do your research?

[Frank] (19:42 - 19:49)

Well, I think it's even talk to your builder, talk to your building surveyor, can I have extra inspections done on this so everyone's accountable? And I think that's a good thing.

[Amelia] (19:49 - 19:51)

Yeah, don't be afraid to question.

[Frank] (19:51 - 19:58)

I'll look at it another way. Doing my own house, building my own house. Do you think I'm just going to sit there and let them just do whatever they like?

[Amelia] (19:58 - 19:59)

Oh, hell no.

[Frank] (19:59 - 20:02)

I'm going to be there every damn day checking stuff out.

[Amelia] (20:03 - 20:05)

You're going to be the worst customer ever.

[Frank] (20:05 - 20:23)

In a way, but I’ve built a relationship with the builder that they know and there's an expectation. Yes. But you've also got to pay for that.

Don't expect a cheap job. You've got to pay for this stuff. So reduce your expectations on the build, but to get the build right, you may have to reduce your scope of your house to make sure it's done right and pay for that.

[Amelia] (20:24 - 20:27)

All right. We might wrap it up there, folks. It'll be an interesting topic of conversation.

[Frank] (20:28 - 20:32)

Well, we can do it after when I build my house. We'll have some interesting chats. I've got no doubt.

[Amelia] (20:32 - 20:35)

Very true. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (20:36 - 20:36)

See you everyone.

[OUTRO] (20:46 - 20:50)

You're listening to the Building Design Primetime Podcast.