E47. Considerations for being an owner builder

In this episode of the Building Design, Prime Time podcast Frank and Amelia delve into the considerations on being an owner builder. 

Frank shares some stories with the good the bad and the ugly and even shares some more personal experiences of being an owner builder for his own home and the impact it had on him in terms of his education and how it has been pivotal in helping him as a building designer. 

Be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode, there is a new one released each week! 

About us
Prime Design is a building design company locally owned and operated in Tasmania since 2004.  Our goal is to share as much valuable information as possible about the process of building design, extensions, and more. We will talk about a different topic each week. To suggest a topic you would like us to talk about contact us at info@primedesigntas.com.au

Disclaimer
The information provided on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice, individual circumstances, or remedy. We strongly suggest you consult a qualified professional before taking any action based on the information provided in this podcast. The views, opinions, and information provided in this podcast are those of the hosts do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organisation, employer, or company. All content provided on this podcast is provided “as is” without warranty of any kind. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this podcast and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, or damages arising from its use. We reserve the right to change content or delete any information provided on this podcast at any time without prior notice.

Transcript

E47. Considerations for being an owner builder

[INTRO] (0:08 - 0:24)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.

[Amelia] (0:26 - 0:43)

Hello and welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast. I'm your host, Amelia. And once again, we're joined by Frank Geskus.

[Frank] (0:43 - 0:43)

Hey, Amelia.

[Amelia] (0:44 - 0:45)

Welcome back from your holiday.

[Frank] (0:46 - 0:50)

Yeah, sorry to rub that in. No, I'm not that sorry. It was a great holiday.

[Amelia] (0:50 - 0:54)

Back to the grind and back to another exciting episode of the podcast.

[Frank] (0:54 - 0:58)

Yes, and I'm excited with what we're about to talk about because I've got some stories.

[Amelia] (0:58 - 1:00)

I reckon you do. Owner builders.

[Frank] (1:01 - 1:06)

Yeah, people that want to build their own house, their own castle, their own hacienda.

[Amelia] (1:06 - 1:09)

And to be clear, you don't have to be a licensed builder.

[Frank] (1:09 - 1:24)

No, there is a pathway. And I'm going to talk about Tasmania specifically, where you can become an owner builder. You have to apply under the government body, CBOS.

And you do have to do a course. You've got to get a white card, get some insurance, go out, knock yourself out and build yourself a house.

[Amelia] (1:24 - 1:28)

Doesn't seem all that easy as that, though, surely. I mean, there's a lot to it.

[Frank] (1:28 - 1:30)

Well, say it fast enough, it's easy.

[Amelia] (1:32 - 1:36)

Now, I know you've got some stories, the good and the bad and the ugly.

[Frank] (1:36 - 1:41)

Pretty well. And I've got open disclosure here, I've done it myself twice.

[Amelia] (1:42 - 1:44)

And I bet you learned a lot along the way as well.

[Speaker 1] (1:44 - 2:44)

Best thing I ever did, being a building designer and also my previous life in the engineering world, in that I learnt so many different things of dealing with trades and what had to come in what order and things that can cost you so much money, your scaffolding, your safety, getting trucks on site, concrete trucks, plumbing, dealing with inspectors, dealing with delays, suppliers and stuff turn up broken and tradies that don't turn up or don't do the right thing.

Actually, most of the trades I used were actually really good. To be fair, they were great. Yeah, I learnt so much.

And I was able to put that into the business as well and teaching all the team. And I encourage all the guys in Prime Design to go do your own building projects, even if you're only just managing it or working with the builder. It's hard.

It is really, really hard. And you've got to be so well prepared and plan well ahead of time. And your budget is the hardest thing to control.

[Amelia] (2:44 - 2:44)

I reckon.

[Frank] (2:45 - 2:48)

Yeah, you have these ideas, then you see something else that's cool and you want to change it.

[Amelia] (2:48 - 2:54)

So then where do you even start with pricing your own project? That must be really challenging.

[Frank] (2:54 - 3:09)

Well, I did mine about 23 years ago. That's show of my age. But I remember and we didn't...

Emails were kind of there, but fax was a pretty big thing. And I ended up spending months and months. I think it was about four and a half months just pricing.

[Amelia] (3:09 - 3:10)

Four and a half months.

[Frank] (3:10 - 3:21)

Yeah, clarifying, doing all that back and forth, changing things, adjusting things so to fit within my budget. And my employer at the time, I did some overtime and stuff so I could offset it. That demand took some time.

[Amelia] (3:22 - 3:27)

I reckon. Far out. I take my hat off to even, I guess, a licensed builder has it down to a fine art.

[Frank] (3:27 - 3:45)

A good one does. Yeah, a really good one does with their planning of everything. I'm blown away by some of the builders on how they get everything to run so smoothly.

But it comes down to having good people, pay them on time, quality trades people and good communication. You can't underestimate that level of communication.

[Amelia] (3:46 - 3:57)

So are there limitations on what an owner builder is allowed to build? For example, is it only limited to a certain size in a residential space or can they do commercial?

[Frank] (3:58 - 4:06)

No, they can't do commercial. Because how, if it's a commercial building, how does someone own it? Because generally it goes on to companies and things like that, you know.

[Amelia] (4:06 - 4:06)

Normally, yeah.

[Frank] (4:07 - 5:25)

Normally. So it's restricted to residential. So you can build new, you can renovate additions, build another unit in the back.

You can certainly do all that, same as any other builder. But you are held up to the same scrutiny as a builder and you've got the same level of liability as a builder. So you've got to keep that in mind too.

In previous years gone by, people used to build and sell, build and sell as owner builder and now they're restricted. You're only allowed to do a very limited amount of building. So, and the idea is for your own purpose.

You have the right to build your own castle. And I totally agree with that. I have no problem with that.

The problem I have with is people with fanciful ideas, dumb ass designs and they think they can build some beautiful design that they've come up with and they haven't got a clue. From my experience, I've seen so many owner builders come in and say, oh, I want to do this, this and this. And as an owner builder, and, I've been burnt badly from a design perspective because they're not clear on the design, not clear on what they're trying to achieve.

And they keep changing it all the time, multiple changes and all that. And then when they're on site, they're changing things. If you're not clear on what you're building, for one thing, you're not going to get what you dream of and you're not going to stick to your budget.

And then you're going to take shortcuts and you're living in a caravan or a tent because you can't afford to stay where you're rented because you're blowing your budget. I've all seen owner builders getting all this money from the bank and they don't do this anymore and they go buy a boat.

[Amelia] (5:26 - 5:28)

With the money? 

[Frank]

Yeah. 

[Amelia]

Oh, wow.

[Frank] (5:28 - 5:48)

And they still expect to build the house. Financial management. I'm not joking about this either.

Buy a new car, buy a new boat, do this and I can't finish the house. Then the bank's got something that's not actually worth, it's an incomplete house. 

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Frank]

So then it's not worth the value. So banks now are really, really hard on this stuff and it's hard to get a loan. Really hard.

[Amelia] (5:49 - 5:54)

Yeah. Yeah. So specifically, if you do disclose that you're an owner builder, it is harder.

[Frank] (5:54 - 5:56)

Oh, very much so. And you have to disclose it.

[Amelia] (5:56 - 5:56)

Yeah, right.

[Frank] (5:56 - 5:58)

Because they want to see a contract.

[Amelia] (5:58 - 5:58)

Yes.

[Frank] (5:58 - 6:37)

So it's either with a licensed builder, if you go out and build it, the restrictions are very, very different. The other interesting thing and I've seen is that some of the owner builders are driven by cost. They think they can do it so much cheaper than a builder, which they'll get it a bit cheaper, maybe 10, 15% maybe.

Not much more from my experience. I haven't been able to see that. Some people think that, oh, I could do it for half the price.

All these builders driving around with their you beaut, you know, Raptor Rangers and Ram trucks and all that. And they judge that they earn ridiculous amounts of money. Well, these guys are making their 10% as they should.

And they should be allowed to make a reasonable living because the risks that are involved.

[Amelia] (6:37 - 6:39)

And it’s a business, I mean.

[Frank]

It's a business. 

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Frank] (6:39 - 7:08)

Of course. So people have very strange perceptions on that as well. So like I had one. He wanted to build his house. It was up the Tamar River, really rocky site. And he chose to do this wall system, which was polystyrene blocks filled with reinforcement and concrete.

[Amelia]

Oh. 

[Frank]

Yeah, no, nothing wrong. It was a good idea. I've seen it. It's not a common way of constructing. Anyway, we ended up doing all the work and sorting it out.

And then he kept ringing us up about how to do stuff.

[Amelia] (7:08 - 7:10)

Because he just didn't know.

[Frank] (7:10 - 7:48)

He just didn't know. And in the end, I said, mate, I'm going to have to charge you for the time because I can't help you. But you're taking me away from my other work.

Oh, yeah, but you're supposed to help me. He says, no, I did the drawings for you. I arranged the engineering.

I arranged all your approvals for you. But he didn't know how to put it together. He thought he did.

And he, you know, and it was, and I, we had to go there, did a couple of inspections. And he just didn't have a clue. He didn't think about how the roof was going to tie down onto the walls.

It was all these things. And the building surveyor or certifier was tearing his hair out. Says, I shouldn't have to tell you how to do this.

You should know this or do the research and prepare. He was just going in blindly.

[Amelia] (7:49 - 7:52)

So I guess obviously there's not enough education there.

[Frank] (7:53 - 9:49)

Especially if you do a different type of construction. Certainly. Yeah, I've also said people try and do, you know, the rake ceilings and expose timber and all that.

And you know, the timber looks like it's been hacked with a hatchet, you know. And big gaps in the timber and nails hanging out. And you think, oh, this is terrible.

But I'm talking about the negative stuff here, right? But then I've also seen other guys that are so well prepared. Got all the details.

They understand they're going to put together. And they do a beautiful job. But they've had experience making things.

Whether it's from furniture decks, have done reno's extensions. I've seen some people do great reno's. You know, which included pulling out walls, new windows, upgrading the building.

And they've done a great job of it. But they knew what they were doing. So you're going for some people that want to build their home.

They've never even renovated or done any home projects. They think it's easy. Got the guys that have done heaps of reno's and built things and stuff.

And they have a good handle on it. And they know how the process and plan and communicate with all these sub-trades. And it gets done in a reasonable time frame.

I can't help it. Grand Designs is a great example of potential summer absolute disasters. Oh, yes.

You know, and I think some people watch it just for that reason. I find it horrifying. Some of the relationships are ruined. Bankruptcy, you know, on the most extreme ones. And they're just pushing it too hard. It's brutal.

You get it wrong or your budget's not right. Or, you know, if you're doing a normal home, 10% contingency. You don't have 10% up your sleeve to deal with the unforeseen.

Reno's, you need to allow 20% because there's more chance of finding problems. And I would always recommend anyone who wants to go owner builder, you really do have to go and educate yourself on how to do this stuff.

Work with a builder. Work for free with a builder, you know, who's going to do a similar project to you. Learn.

That's how apprentices do it. They get on site and they learn how to do it. Use their hands.

Now, there's the other ones who are actual project managers. Still as an owner builder.

[Amelia] (9:50 - 9:57)

Yeah. And I'd imagine that might be slightly more common because, you know, you outsource the things that you can't do yourself.

[Frank] (9:57 - 10:41)

And when I did mine, a lot of that I did, you know. I didn't know how to pour a concrete slab. So I wasn't going to do it.

I helped out, you know. I learned a lot from that. I'm not allowed to do the plumbing.

So got a qualified plumber in and they did all the things I had to do. It was fascinating to learn. Fascinating how to deal with the plumbing inspector and things like that.

The framing. Well, I had someone come in to do all the framing, the roofing. Someone to put the roof shooting, the gutters.

I put the windows in. I put the cladding in. Put the insulation.

I put the electrical cables. Did all the runs for the sparky. And he verified, checked everything.

I had to get up and drill holes and do all the hard labour stuff. Fine. So you can certainly do a lot of management and you do the sundry stuff.

Interestingly, I never painted my house though. Most people think painting is easy.

[Amelia] (10:41 - 10:44)

Oh, it's really not. Take it from someone who knows.

[Frank] (10:45 - 10:47)

It's hard to get a really good finish, isn't it?

[Amelia] (10:47 - 10:51)

It's really hard. We've actually just recently paid somebody to do most of our house.

[Frank] (10:52 - 10:57)

Yeah, because they're faster, easier and you don't have to live in the crap that you put everywhere.

[Amelia] (10:57 - 11:09)

Yeah, and it's that time-consuming stuff of even setting up to paint and cutting in and- Prepping. Prepping, yeah, all that stuff. And a good painter has that down to a fine art.

[Frank] (11:10 - 11:36)

Yep, they have their processes. Yeah. They're very good.

Mind you, it's one of the most satisfying things to do if you know you've done a good job. But when it's not great, you see it every day. So there's that sort of project management.

But there again, communication, they're able to talk to the trades and in their language and on expectations and getting fixed quotes and working the timing, making sure they can be on site, all that type of stuff.

[Amelia] (11:36 - 11:42)

And I think understanding what your limitations are as well, you know, and knowing when to outsource things.

[Frank] (11:42 - 11:44)

And that's where I think some owner builders fall over badly.

[Amelia] (11:45 - 11:53)

Well, they think they can save a buck or two and, oh, you know, I'll just do it myself. I'll watch a YouTube video and Bob's your uncle. 

[Frank]

To be fair, you could.

[Amelia]

To a degree.

[Frank] (11:53 - 12:02)

To a degree. Plenty of guys work on cars. You know, I'm a car guy.

They want to modify and do their cars. And YouTube's fantastic to learn how to do stuff.

[Amelia] (12:02 - 12:02)

Oh, definitely.

[Frank] (12:03 - 12:05)

But there again, you pick and choose what you do.

[Amelia] (12:05 - 12:06)

Yes, yes.

[Frank] (12:06 - 12:26)

It's like anything. It's education and learning. But you don't go into it with rose coloured glasses.

You really want to understand it, plan it and plan it and just keep planning it and communicating spreadsheets. If you've got that, you get 50% of it pretty well there. And don't tick off your sub-trades.

[Amelia] (12:26 - 12:30)

No, definitely not. You might end up with a half-finished job.

[Frank] (12:31 - 12:43)

Yeah, well, exactly right. But then also you find these guys are really awesome and they bend over backwards helping you, you know. I had that, especially I remember my Tyler.

He was amazing. He came in on the weekends to finish it off and yeah.

[Amelia] (12:43 - 12:46)

That's awesome. Qualify them is what I would recommend too.

[Frank] (12:46 - 13:59)

Yeah, qualify them. Recommendations, talk to other people. So I know I sound very negative on the owner-builder and in some cases it's very justifiable.

I know for us with a lot of owner-builders want to design their own homes. The interesting thing is they don't understand the building code. And when we want to educate them, they glaze over it and they don't understand the level of drawings we have to do.

Well, Tassie got a minimum level of drawings we have to do. So a lot of the times we don't take on their work because they're not well prepared. If they're well prepared and they're very clear what they're going to do and they understand how it's going to go, yeah, no problem.

On the understanding, if they need help after the fact, we're on site, we can help them. But you know, there's a time charge to that. So the building surveyors don't like dealing with them either for the same thing because if they're uneducated, it costs them a lot of time and money and a lot of heartache.

So lots of preparation, lots of education, get along on site, do some smaller projects first to really get a handle on this stuff. So if you're in the industry, as I said before, encourage all my team of designers, go ahead and do it. Go and renovate, go build a deck, build a pergola, a garage, modify your home, you know, go through the process.

It's a good way to learn.

[Amelia] (14:00 - 14:04)

And you learn the steps, I guess, beginning to finish and what comes next.

[Frank] (14:05 - 14:26)

Yeah, exactly. You know, even the simple thing one of the guys said, he's put a window in the wall. You know, that sounds really easy, but you've got to flash it so it doesn't leak. It's got to be put in level. Sounds easy, but you've also got to put a lintel in, you know, above it so that has to hold the roof up. Yeah, there's all these little bits and pieces that people aren't aware of because you don't want water coming in.

[Amelia] (14:26 - 14:27)

Oh, definitely not.

[Frank] (14:27 - 14:35)

But it's pretty easy. I've seen some stuff from builders and a question if the builder did do the right thing or whether the builder didn’t it, where the windows leaked like a sieve.

[Amelia] (14:35 - 14:36)

Oh, that's no good.

[Frank] (14:36 - 14:48)

Oh, it's terrible. Yeah, but the flashings weren't done right or the sill wasn't done right, you know, and yeah, you end up getting water inside your building, which is the thing that kills houses. Moisture.

Oh, we've talked about that before, haven't we?

[Amelia] (14:48 - 14:48)

We have. We've spoken about that a lot.

[Frank] (14:48 - 14:58)

Condensation, but with direct water coming into your house, really bad. Yeah. So have a really good think about it if you want to do it. And if you do, it's a big journey.

[Amelia] (14:59 - 15:08)

So what do you recommend for anyone that wants to possibly go down the road of becoming an owner builder? What would you suggest that they do if they're uneducated?

[Frank] (15:08 - 16:10)

If they're uneducated and you've got no experience, don't do it. It's pretty simple. Just don't do it.

If you've done renovations, alterations, and all that type of stuff, and you're relatively familiar how stuff goes together, you could certainly do it. But do not start with a really complicated house. Keep it relatively simple.

You don't want to have big, raked ceilings and, you know, three and a half meter high windows and really complex stuff. It's just really hard, unless you subby that out for someone else to do. Because being an owner builder might be, like I said, it could be project managing.

You know, I'm just going to do the fit out. I'm going to do this. You know, you can do basic stuff.

I'll organise the plasterer. Or I'm not going to plaster. I'm going to plywood line it.

I'm going to do something different. And that's okay. Still needs to meet the building code, which shouldn't be a problem.

But the other thing is you've got to have an understanding of the building code. If you're building it, you have to comply with this big book and all the relevant Australian standards, and the drawings should cover that. But how are you going to reference that?

If you've never read it? 

[Amelia]

Exactly. 

[Frank]

Mind you, it's not the most exciting read.

[Amelia] (16:11 - 16:14)

Oh, I can imagine. It's not on my list of things to read.

[Frank] (16:15 - 16:46)

But we use it on a regular basis. It's free online. You can apply for that, which is good.

Reference the Australian standards. They're not free. But sometimes you do need to reference those and find the details. But learn off a professional. Learn off a builder who's done plenty of this.

There are plenty of builders out there that'd be happy to come in and help on hourly rate and teach you the stuff. But it's a big call to do it. I remember when I did my first house, it was seven months once I started. It was seven months of my life. I won't get back. So I missed out seven months of my kids growing up.

[Amelia] (16:46 - 16:48)

Because you were learning how to build the house?

[Frank] (16:48 - 17:00)

No, I was building it. Oh, you were actually building it? I was into it, you know, and I subbed out components.

It still took me seven months. And my target was my last child was to be born in June, and I missed it by three weeks.

[Amelia] (17:00 - 17:01)

Oh, wow. That's still pretty good, though.

[Frank] (17:01 - 17:05)

Because the carpet order didn't come through.

[Amelia] (17:05 - 17:08)

I remember you saying that, and you had to have secondhand carpeting.

[Frank] (17:09 - 17:23)

No, the carpet company installed all this secondhand carpet. Brilliant. They were awesome.

Yeah, it was just one of those things I missed it. So that was interesting when I gave up our rental, got the timing, all that. I was working hard, slaving away, you know.

And then I had to stay at my in-laws for three weeks.

[Amelia] (17:24 - 17:25)

Oh, wow. That would have been...

[Frank] (17:25 - 17:29)

Well, I was hardly there. I was at the house. 

[Amelia]
You were working.

[Frank]

I was going for it.

[Amelia] (17:29 - 17:32)

And you were still working full time as well? 

[Frank]

Yeah. 

[Amelia]

Wow, that's a hard slog.

[Frank] (17:33 - 17:43)

It was a hard slog. And this is what I'm saying. It's...if you want to do it working part-time, do it. Knock yourself out. Plan three years to do it.

You know, if you're really doing it yourself. It's hard.

[Amelia] (17:44 - 17:59)

Oh, I can imagine. If you look at sort of the generation, two generations before us, they would do that. They would do it.

They would work full time. Like, I look at my grandparents and he, you know, my grandfather, he worked full time. And after work, he'd be going to build the house.

[Frank] (17:59 - 18:01)

That's right. It was a lot simpler back then how to build a house.

[Amelia] (18:01 - 18:04)

Yeah, true. Houses are a lot smaller then too, I think.

[Frank] (18:05 - 18:24)

But I still believe if you're determined enough, you can do that. You know, well-planned. You give it...

you're sacrificing a lot. Like, you're sacrificing everything. Time with your family, you know, time with your friends, all that type of stuff.

You disappear. You're focused, 100% focused. And there's this other problem when you do that.

Fatigue.

[Amelia] (18:25 - 18:25)

Oh, definitely.

[Frank] (18:26 - 18:30)

I got myself sick multiple times. I fell through the floor twice.

[Amelia] (18:30 - 18:31)

Holy moly.

[Frank] (18:31 - 18:59)

Yeah, banged myself up. I was exhausted. I banged myself up.

I didn't break anything, but I bruised myself heavily. And I'm surprised I didn't hurt myself further. And when you're pushing yourself that hard, that's what happens.

You know, and I've heard plenty of other people do that too. You know, just utterly exhausted and just making one little mistake on sight and you hurt yourself bad. So it's all nice to be able to do this.

That's why I keep it as simple and easy as possible and manage what you can manage. And I won't be doing it again.

[Amelia] (19:01 - 19:03)

I don't blame you.

[Frank] (19:03 - 19:09)

So, and there's plenty of other stories out there. I'm sure people would love to hear other people's stories and experiences on that.

[Amelia] (19:09 - 19:15)

Yeah, 100%. All right. We might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.

[Frank] (19:15 - 19:16)

Catch ya’s later.

[OUTRO] (19:25 - 19:35)

You're listening to the Building Design Primetime Podcast. You're listening to the Building Design, Prime Time Podcast.