E48. Turning your home into a flat
INTRO
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Hello and welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.
Amelia: Hello and welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast, I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.
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Frank: Hi Amelia, how are we?
Amelia: Pretty good, we had an inquiry this week.
Frank: Yeah, an interesting one.
Amelia: Yeah.
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Frank: Yeah, just thought I'd start with this story for just those people that want to try and get more value out of their houses. So the inquiry came about where someone owned a probably 100 year old two-story house in the middle of Launceston and they were thinking, oh, I've got all this space, why can't I rent downstairs out? And so the inquiry came about and we were discussing it in the office because it opened up a really interesting discussion in all these different scenarios. So the person asked, oh look, I've got a big staircase that goes down the middle, it's a typical, call it Federation style house where the rooms are big and square, a hallway down the middle, veranda out the back and big staircase down to the lower floor which had rooms down there as well.
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And they wanted to block off the stairs and convert downstairs into a flat. And I said, well, okay, that makes it interesting because I'm going to get all technical with how it stands in the National Construction Code (NCC) but a normal house is a Class 1A. As soon as you've got a flat, because the upper floor becomes a flat as well if you want to call that or a unit, you've got two different houses on top of each other, it becomes a Class 2. So that means we have to block it, not just block, but fire rate between the two.
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So someone stuffs up downstairs, you've got enough time to get out of your upper floor. Also, when you're downstairs or upstairs, you don't want to hear anyone.
Amelia: No.
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You know, especially if they're doing whatever, you know, whatever it might be.
Amelia: Their aerobics class?
Frank: Their aerobics, noisy yoga, I don't know. Then you need acoustic treatment.
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And it's under the building code that you need to provide acoustic treatment between different classes or the same class. So it kind of makes sense in a lot of ways. But then you've got to separate the power, the water, the sewerage, and all these types of things, right?
Amelia: Parking?
Frank: Yeah I haven't even got to that yet.
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Amelia: Yeah, right.
Frank: I'm just talking about the building. So it becomes a very expensive process.
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Now, under a lot of the municipal planning schemes, as soon as you do multiple residential or grouped housing, whatever you want to call it, flats, multiple flats, the parking requirements, the private open space, the bins and everything have to be considered and has to go through an approval process. So that sounds like a really big job, because it is.
Amelia: Does it become part of a body corporate as well?
Frank: If you choose to.
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If you want to strata it, yes. So that's separate strata titles within it. If you so choose to, you don't have to.
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But this person was doing it, says, well, people need a place to live, stay, whatever. I can get some extra income. Yeah, sounds good.
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But because they asked to do a flat, this is where the rabbit hole we went down. So we've gone back to them and says, well, what are you actually trying to do? Oh, you know, if someone could board or whatever, so why don't you just rent a room out? Oh, I don't want them in my space. Well, we can put a kitchenette down there.
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You don't have to block off the stairs. You put a door top and bottom. That's not a big deal.
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So we went down this track of, well, how else can we do it? Oh, what if we want to put two people downstairs? Well, they're renting a room from you. So it's still, call it boarding, call it a share house. Have a kitchenette.
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That's fine. And putting a kitchenette downstairs, there's no regulations to stop them from doing that. And it doesn't trigger the planning either.
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In Launceston, that is, or most of Tasmania. So where it does get interesting is the different interpretations. Well, you put a separate laundry down there, would you believe?
Amelia: Really?
Frank: Yep.
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Amelia: That's where you draw the line.
Frank: It can be, under the schemes. Yeah, and some of the schemes and under some of the municipal requirements.
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Now, we've just had a scheme upgrade. I don't know if it's still in there. We haven't come across it.
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We're about to investigate on this job just to see, well, what can we do? But then it comes down to, it sounds like it's becoming a share house, you know?
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: A uni share house.
Amelia: That's what it sounds like.
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And that's okay too. Why wouldn't it? You know, you've got four or five people in the same house sharing the facilities. Now, this person wants to just keep the upper floor to themselves and people downstairs can do whatever they like.
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No acoustics, no fire separation, anything. And that's okay. So then with the stairs, then you're putting a door in there to separate.
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Yep, you can do that. So then it came up, well, does that become a granny flat?
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: Because we've had a previous podcast talking about granny flats.
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And in Tasmania, that is a space that is no more than 60 square metres. And that could be one or two bedrooms. And they're fantastic.
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You can put them in the back of a site. You don't need parking for it. You don't need to separate your water and plumbing, all sorts of stuff.
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It's very simple, convenient. As it sounds, it is originally designed for elderly parents to be with their family and things like that. But now it's become an extra rentable income for a lot of people.
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The problem is if you have a granny flat under your house, it still triggers under the building code as two separate dwellings.
Amelia: Really?
Frank: Can do, depending on the usage and how it's used. And this is where the definition gets confusing.
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Amelia: Yeah, so when do you call it a granny flat? And when do you call it a share house?
Frank: Yeah, well, see, this is where I'd have to get some advice from a building surveyor. Because if you call it a granny flat and you let it out as a separate building, it still would need to meet all the building code requirements of fire separation, acoustics, as far as I'm aware. But I've done plenty of houses where they've literally got a granny flat in the house because it is for granny or grandpa.
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You know, they had no intention. But then you've got the other side of it, and we don't have this here in Tassie, but you have it a lot more on the mainland, is the dual occupancy.
Amelia: Yes.
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Frank: Which is different again. How confusing is all this?
Amelia: It's really confusing.
Frank: But it is definitely worth investigating.
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If you want to increase the value or income out of your property, why wouldn't you consider this?
Amelia: So then what's the difference between dual occupancy and a granny flat?
Frank: Good question. If you were going to do, say, the bottom storey you rent out and then the top storey you live in that yourself? I believe it still triggers it to a Class 2. So then you're going back to that whole thing again to a Class 2 and you're going to have the fire separation, the acoustic and all that.
Amelia: That's so confusing.
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Frank: But I'd have to check that out. It's an interesting one, isn't it? I just thought I'd bring it up as a topic of discussion because I believe we're going to see a lot more of this. With the current state of play in the whole country where there's not enough roofs to go over people's heads, and that's just fact.
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Everyone's blaming the government, everyone's blaming landlords, ripping people off and all this, and I won't get into that whole discussion. But the bottom line is there's people living out there rough. In Launceston, we're seeing it everywhere.
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I see it in Hobart. I was in New Zealand just recently. I saw it there too.
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And it's pretty ordinary, to say the least, especially with people that are working, earning money they can't get a rental.
Amelia: It's terrible.
Frank: It's tough.
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So why can't we look at situations like this where you can rent out half your house? To a lot of people, they want to be private. Have their own space. It's your castle.
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Do with it as you like. And that's their right. But if you need an extra income, hey, why not be bad company for some people if they choose the right people to come and join in? Share the house, board, have a lower story, all that type of stuff.
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I know plenty of uni students used to do that. With people I know, they used to board downstairs of a house and then maybe pop upstairs for a coffee or with people I know did that down in Hobart years ago. I don't know if that's a thing anymore.
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Maybe that's something we've got to look at as a society, is sharing more of our house.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: Because, man, there's people doing it rough.
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Amelia: In my lifetime, I've never seen it as bad as what it is now.
Frank: I think it's a society problem. It's not a government problem.
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Amelia: Really?
Frank: I think we've got to change the way we look at things, how we can help each other out. But then you've got to put your money where your mouth is too, don't you? And that's a tough one. It's a real social dilemma at the moment and they can't act fast enough on this.
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And you won't. You cannot build fast enough. You cannot solve the problem fast enough because of the regulations.
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It's just not possible. But if people are willing to consider to rent parts of their house out and still have their own privacy and share the house, that could be a way of doing it.
Amelia: It could work.
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I don't know if people would be willing to do that.
Frank: People have to be willing, of course. But it could be someone who just needs a single bedroom, their own kitchen, bathroom and a bit of space.
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Who knows? But that's a whole new discussion. But going back to the building stuff, you know, you can certainly look at this and if you look at the cost of, like say if you have a house like this and because the interest rates have increased so much, your repayments, maybe renting out a room or renting out a part of the house is a way of doing that.
Amelia: Yeah, it's not a bad option.
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Frank: I think it's definitely worth looking at. But you've got to do it legit. Don't do it dodgy.
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You know, you do it well. Bathroom, kitchenette, have their own space. Everyone respects each other.
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I think it would work quite well. See what happens. I'll let you know on this job, see where we land on this.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: And have this discussion. Because like where this house is located, it's literally five minutes walk from the CBD.
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Amelia: Oh, it's ideal.
Frank: It's perfect. And you've got bus routes straight outside.
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And this is the other thing. If you've got all that, you don't need cars. And uni students have been doing this for years.
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Amelia: Oh, definitely.
Frank: You know, and nothing against uni students. They do it tough sometimes in trying to find accommodation and study and they've got to work and all that.
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My daughter's doing that in Melbourne. And watching that from afar, it's been challenging for her.
Amelia: Oh, and that would be pretty expensive being Melbourne.
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Frank: Well, it's not that much more expensive than here, to tell you the truth, in Launceston.
Amelia: That's, yeah.
Frank: It was more expensive, but I was then talking to other people about some pricing in Launceston and Hobart.
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You know, it kind of isn't too bad.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: All things considered, but their public transport's a lot better too.
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Amelia: Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
Frank: But maybe this could be a solution. Not a big one.
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It's just part of many solutions we can look at with homeless. I didn't think I'd go down this rabbit hole about homelessness. But isn't it interesting where you could maybe convert houses? Because our houses in Australia are massive.
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Amelia: Oh, yeah.
Frank: They are so huge. Yet, and sometimes only two people living in a four- to five-bedroom house.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: Hey, Amelia.
Amelia: Maybe.
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Come on, the cats, they rule the roost.
Frank: Yeah, true. Well, I can't talk.
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Amelia: They take up four of the bedrooms.
Frank: Yeah, yeah. But anyway, it's an interesting one, but I do understand people want to have their own personal space too.
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But that's why the granny flat, you know, idea is still good. You can capitalise on that by extra income, getting a roof over someone's head, all those types of things. Yeah, it's an interesting discussion how you could potentially convert your house to generate greater income, to offset your loan or whatever, or just extra income for yourself.
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But people do with Airbnb, don't they?
Amelia: Yeah, and don't you have to have permits for that?
Frank: By the letter of the law, you do. You need lots of permits for lots of things. It doesn't mean everyone has permits for a long time.
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Amelia: Very true.
Frank: You know, and that's another way of looking at it. That's a short-term.
I'm talking about long-term.
Amelia: So when does it become long-term? Would it be longer than, like, three months?
Frank: I actually don't know what the definition is here, you know. Normally people come to us, hey, you want to build or convert for Airbnb or Stayz or whatever it may be, and they're specific about that because you've got to put all the smokes in there, emergency lighting and a few bits and pieces in the house to make it comply.
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If I was going to do something like with this gentleman, and we were already discussing it, we'd recommend to put smoke detectors. Like, every house has to have one, right? You're in the hallways. That's every house, just outside the bedrooms.
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I would recommend if you're doing this, you put one in every bedroom and they're all interconnected.
Amelia: So one triggers the rest of them.
Frank: Exactly.
Now, with Airbnbs and accommodation, you do have to do that. For the sake of share housing and all the rest of it, I don't think it's a bad idea of doing it.
Amelia: Yeah, I mean, they're not expensive.
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Frank: Just make sure you've got plenty of batteries. There's nothing worse than a smoke alarm going off because the battery's gone flat in the middle of the night.
Amelia: That's the worst.
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Frank: Yes, it is. Even if they're hardwired, they're still going to have a battery in them.
Amelia: Yes.
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Frank: So that's one of those things I would recommend to do. But yeah, I'll let you know how we go on this one, where it heads.
Amelia: Yeah, it would be really interesting to see where it does go.
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Frank: And if you're, like I said, you could be an investor too. This could be of interest. The other thing with these older houses, man, they're cold.
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Amelia: Yeah, that's very true.
Frank: Man, they're cold houses.
Amelia: Yeah, they can be cold.
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Frank: But in saying that, still warmer than sleeping outside.
Amelia: Still a roof over your head, isn't it?
Frank: It's a roof over your head. Yeah.
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But look, I'll let you know on that story, or story about that inquiry, where we head with it because it's caused an interesting discussion in the office and where it could head. But then got me thinking about other benefits to society.
Amelia: 100%.
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So what do you recommend for anyone that's not sure about getting started with either? What do you even call it? Because I don't even know what to call it.
Frank: I don't know either.
Amelia: Is it a granny flat or is it a share house?
Frank: It's a boarding.
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Amelia: A duplex? What is it?
Frank: Well, it depends how you're going to use it, isn't it? So if you're going to use it for long-term rental and it's a multi-residential, it's a multi-residential. And then it's class two, if it's on top of each other. If it's next to each other, it's still class one, firewalls between.
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If you're just renting out rooms and stuff, and I believe there would be a limitation to that, you call it boarding or sharing the space. It's like a share house. The granny flat, again, if it's next to the house, it's easier than under the house or on top of the house because of the fire separation and acoustic separation and other things you need to meet.
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So it makes it really interesting. You need someone like us to go through that process to understand if you want to do this, or how can I capitalise? Because you want to do this for minimal dollars, but also with the proper safety and proper permits.
Amelia: And each version of what you just told us would have different minimum requirements.
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Frank: Massive.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: But also it would limit the amount of income you'd get too.
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Amelia: True.
Frank: OK. So it's all good discussion to have.
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Amelia: Yeah, I'd be really keen to know everyone else's thoughts on this and your experience if you've done this before.
Frank: But I remember in the 70s, there used to be heaps of these, you know, big old houses divided into four flats and they were just filthy, horrible places to live. I remember in the 80s, I had friends living in... You know, I was still living at home and stuff in the 80s and 90s and they were living in these rentals, these flats and these old houses, and they were just filth.
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They were, disgraceful.
Amelia: Oh, gross.
Frank: They were, but they were just old, manky, mouldy, horrible places.
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Amelia: But now there's minimum requirements, so we don't...
Frank: Well, some of them are still there.
Amelia: Really? Seriously. Wow.
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Frank: Yeah, these old things, because back then they didn't have the proper regulations. Yeah, yeah. But now people have a higher standard.
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Mind you, at the moment, beggars can't be choosers, can they?
Amelia: Yeah, people have got to take what they can get, yeah.
Frank: And then they go on to these unhealthy, horrible places.
Amelia: Yeah.
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We know much better now, but don't have a choice in some case.
Amelia: All right, we might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design Primetime podcast.
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Frank: Catch ya.
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