E59. Choosing products for your home to reduce maintenance
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Hello and welcome to the Building Design Primetime podcast, focused on providing valuable information for anyone looking to undertake a new build or extension project. We'll share our tips, tricks and stories from a building designers perspective.
Amelia: Hello and Welcome to the Building Design, Prime Time podcast. I'm your host Amelia and once again we're joined by Frank Geskus.
Frank: Hey Amelia, how are we?
Amelia: Oh look, happy Friday.
Frank: Happy Friday.
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Amelia: Our bellies are full. We had a big lunch today.
Frank: Yes, a celebration but also sad one of our team members is leaving to go try a new endeavour and we wish him all the best, wish Stevie all the best with that and also Courtney, she's going on maternity leave.
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Amelia: Yeah, lots happening.
Frank: Very exciting,
Amelia: yes. Lots happening in the PD office.
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Frank: Yes, definitely. So what are we talking about today?
Amelia: Oh look, I thought we would have a little chat about maintenance because I think a lot of people when they come in and they're choosing products and doing all of that stuff, they don't always consider what sort of maintenance is involved in certain materials or in certain conditions.
Frank: 100%, 100% and when we choose certain things, I have noticed in the past people want a certain look and you need to point out that what potential maintenance may be, that's what we do.
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Also a lot of us in the office of renoed or built houses ourselves, we know some of this stuff, but also talking to builders, suppliers, also new products coming all the time, so we get a good idea. There's nothing worse than choosing something and it looks rat shit, you know, a few years.
Amelia: Yeah, exactly.
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Frank: So maybe we start, the thing that I think needs a lot of maintenance is the outside of your house.
Amelia: I agree, I mean it gets battered and weathered the most, doesn't it?
Frank: Yeah, it gets dirty and dust and mud, the dust turns into mud and fills your gutters up, so I'll start there with your roof. So here in Tasmania a lot of us love Colorbond and we love our tile roofs.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: So, you know, it's still pretty popular here and I must say I love both. All of it does need a level of maintenance, probably not a lot.
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The main thing is checking for damage, but how do you actually check for damage on a roof? It's a bit hard to get up there, isn't it?
Amelia: Oh, yeah.
Frank: Also the other thing is your gutters, so cleaning those out. I know for mine I get a lot of dust on the roof and it grows into the gutters and gets full of mud and a bit of leaf litter and then you've got your own compost bin in the gutters.
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So give them a good clean and just a little tip here, don't use a high-pressure cleaner to do it.
Amelia: Why is that?
Frank: Well, you put a high-pressure cleaner in your gutter, it blows up underneath the sheeting and if you've got normal eaves it blows it inside the roof or into your eaves and down your wall cabinet.
Amelia: Yeah, that's a good point.
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Frank: Yeah, I learnt that one the hard way. Anyway, there's a little thing, box gutters. You know how much we love box gutters in the office?
Amelia: Oh, your favourite thing.
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Frank: Oh, the worst. They're the dumbest invention ever. They need cleaning every six months.
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Amelia: Do they really?
Frank: 100%. Well, just think about it, you've got this thing, this big box catches all this water then it's got to go, might have a sump where the water drops into, then there's a downpipe. Very easy for it to clog, especially, you know, you've got leaf litter, stuff blows in there, definitely needs maintenance and no one maintains it.
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It's one of the least maintained components on a house and I've seen spectacular failures.
Amelia: And it's simply because of maintenance?
Frank: Yeah, the lack of maintenance.
Amelia: Yeah, okay.
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Frank: Well, to be fair, some of the old box gutters weren't designed well and they just overflow and go inside the roof cavity or down through the walls. Yeah, and no overflows. Oh, here's a tip.
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If your box gutter, which is an internal gutter, doesn't have an overflow, so it normally flows to a downpipe, and if it blocks, where does the water go?
Amelia: It's going to go inside the roof cavity, isn't it?
Frank: Do you know how many buildings I've seen that they don't have an overflow? A relief. A path of least resistance for the water to go.
Amelia: Why would they not do that?
Frank: I don't know, because people are stupid.
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It's just dumb. Because it affects the look of the house. But to be fair, not much chop when you're doing an insurance claim when it's wrecked, you know, wrecked the inside of your house.
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Exactly. Because that's exactly what it does. I've been in a house, or in an office, where the ceiling collapsed behind me when I was running out with a computer to save the computer.
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You're laughing. It actually happened in my place where I used to work. I couldn't believe it.
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I said, well, that ceiling's bending. That doesn't sound good. It was my boss's computer.
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I grabbed it, heard it creak, and then I ran, and all the cables still attached. The cables are flying everywhere. And then the whole ceiling collapsed behind me.
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Water splashed the back of me to save the computer. Lost his phones, all his documents. It was unbelievable.
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Amelia: But you were the hero of the day because you saved the computer.
Frank: Well, yeah. But I didn't think of that at the time.
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I was ticked off. I was wet as.
Amelia: Oh, dear.
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But anyway, look, they do fail. And sometimes you can't avoid it in building, building design. But make sure they're designed well, really well.
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The other things to look at is your outside finish of your house. If you've got brick, it's got to be brick and stone are some of the easiest maintained.
Amelia: Yeah, products.
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Yep, a lot of stuff where we're going lightweight, whether it's painted. Every 15 years, it's not too bad. With the current paint technology, it's very, very good.
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Amelia: It's not bad, is it?
Frank: It's pretty good. Renders are a bit harder. They're generally OK for 15 odd years, as I understand, sometimes longer.
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But they can get hairline cracks in them. So you don't see that straight away. If you do it over a lightweight cement sheet base render, don't ever do it.
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Awful. Cracks. It looks like crazy paving on your wall.
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Amelia: Oh, dear.
Frank: Yeah. And what you're doing is looking at maintaining it.
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Oh, the seals around your windows is a good one.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: So with lightweight claddings, sometimes they've got flashing.
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Sometimes they use a silicon. Guess what? Silicon breaks down.
Amelia: Yeah, it does.
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Frank: So you've got to keep an eye on that. Your front doors, back doors, side doors, if they're swing doors, make sure to do some weather cover over them. Because if the door swings in, water, rain driving around hits the door, goes down into the door seal, and leaks inside.
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Amelia: Sounds like moisture is one of the biggest issues for maintenance when things fail.
Frank: Oh, 100%. Terrible.
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And that's just the moisture on the outside, not the moisture that's on the inside.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: That we produce is just being living in a house.
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Amelia: Exactly.
Frank: So those are the things to look at. Oh, this is my favourite.
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Decks, timber decks. Now, I've now got a personal pet hate of timber decks.
Amelia: They look amazing when you first get them done.
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Yeah, I've got a palawa and makrakapa timber decks. And when I first went in, amazing. Then I got sick of redoing them all the time.
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Like, to make them look amazing, I had to keep stripping them back. Because they just didn't last.
Amelia: They didn't hold up.
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Frank: In the Tasmanian sun. And even through the frosts, they didn't do real well. Got sick of that, so I ended up just painting them.
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Amelia: Yeah, okay.
Frank: That's just the amount of time I spent. So, if you've got better products now, we've got these timber plastic composites.
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A lot more expensive, but you never have to do a day's maintenance on them.
Amelia: And they don't fade?
Frank: Generally they fade. I think they fade a little bit, and then they stabilise.
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I've got a mate who's got it, and his has been fantastic. The only problem with those is when you get a really hot day and direct sun on them, you could fry an egg on them.
Amelia: They're a bit hot.
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Frank: Man, they get hot. You're not going out there in bare feet.
Amelia: Oh, wow.
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So, there is keeping things maintained, so it looks good. The other thing is your outdoor drains. So, around your house.
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Amelia: You bang on about this all the time.
Frank: I know, I know. Too much drainage is never enough.
Amelia: Exactly
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Frank: But you've got to maintain your egg drains, which is hard. What I mean by that, when you've had a rain go down a couple of days later, and have a look at the pipes that come from behind your retaining wall into a pit, and if it's still dribbling water, you know it's working. But you've got to clean the pits out.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: I went to one just recently with Mitch, and we went to a commercial property. Oh, that's the one that demoed the wrong house.
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I won't talk about that.
Amelia: Oh, my goodness.
Frank: No, no, I'm not going to talk about that one.
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That's another story for another time.
Amelia: I'm going to have to hear all about that off air.
Frank: I can't believe this.
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Anyway, we got there, and we looked at the drainage pits, and they were literally full of silt. Like, these are big.
Amelia: Really?
Frank: And full of dirt, rubbish.
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No one’s touched it for years. So, it doesn't actually work. So, it backs up.
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Yeah.
Amelia: Here's another good one.
Frank: Yep.
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Amelia: Biocycles.
Frank: As in the wastewater systems.
Amelia: Yeah.
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Frank: Yeah.
Amelia: You've got to maintain those, don't you?
Frank: Yes, you do. And you've actually got to sign a maintenance contract.
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Amelia: Oh, really? Is it every three months? Or six?
Frank: Every quarter, yeah. Something like that. Three months.
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Yeah, you pay. I don't even know how much you pay anymore. But it's a contract that someone puts in the chemicals, does a quick test on it, makes sure it's working properly.
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Because you do not want your...
Amelia: Bits?
Frank: Your poo processing system failing, because it gets smelly, it doesn't work well, it fills up, you're going to spend money on someone to pump it out. But it also breaks the system because the biochemicals in there don't actually...
Amelia: Break down?
Frank: Don't break down the bits. So, you want to be able to make sure that that's well maintained.
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Same with all your, like I said, site drainage as well. Clean out all your storm water pits. And what I like to do is pest control.
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Amelia: That's a good one.
Frank: I'm not talking about the neighbours' kids or anything like that. So, around here we have lots of creepy crawlies.
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Amelia: We do.
Frank: We love our huntsman spiders and daddy longlegs and the occasional redback, plus the centipedes.
Amelia: Do you know the worst ones? What's that? Those ants.
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Ant infestations.
Frank: Oh, the sugar ants? Or the little itty bitty black ants?
Amelia: Just the tiny black ones.
Frank: Oh, they're amazing.
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Amelia: They get inside and there's a trail of them and it's, yeah, pest controllers are fantastic.
Frank: They are, they are. Especially, my wife has a personal pet, hey, for the huntsman, especially the ones that pop up in your bedroom.
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Amelia: Yeah, I'm not a fan of those either, but thankfully, usually the cats get to them first and then we wake up and there's a few less legs that they have.
Frank: Of the cats or?
Amelia: Of the spiders.
Frank: Okay.
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But they like playing with them, don't they?
Amelia: Probably. I don't know. I'd prefer not to know, I think.
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Frank: Okay. So, yeah, around your yard too. So, if you're a bushfire-prone zone, welcome to Australia.
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We have lots of bushfires. So, there are regulations now where you live and your house will be designed for bushfire attack. You are given documents with the house and you have to maintain your yard.
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In some cases, a bit further than your yard with approvals. And that is to make sure that you've got the best chance of, one, getting out of your property if there's a bushfire or staying to fight. In most cases, get out.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: You know. So, that's really important of your yard and lawn care and all the trees and stuff, maintaining that.
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Amelia: So, do you have to have a minimum distance cleared if you're on a bigger property?
Frank: That's going to be down to the assessment.
Amelia: Oh, so it depends what the BAL level is?
Frank: Yeah, exactly. And they'll come up with a bushfire management plan.
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And you've got to keep maintaining it. Now, nothing's got to deal with if your neighbour doesn't do the same thing. If your neighbour doesn't maintain it, it becomes, you know, overgrown and becomes a hazard.
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There's not a lot you can do about it.
Amelia: But that can also affect your bushfire attack level as well, can't it?
Frank: Very much so. Yeah.
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So, yeah, you should have a right to protect and prepare your house and other buildings on your property for bushfire. And just sticking with the basic stuff that's available, you can go over and above that, which is always good. But in Australia, I think the rest of the world knows the type of bushfires that we have.
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Amelia: Oh, yeah.
Frank: And in some cases, nothing's going to help you if it's a firestorm you're toast anyway. Sorry, that was a bad pun.
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Amelia: That was really bad.
Frank: Sorry, that was really bad. Another one that's good to keep an eye on is your retaining walls externally.
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Over time, if drainage isn't maintained behind, they can actually start pushing over or cracking or breaking.
Amelia: Oh, really? Even though they've been engineered?
Frank: Yeah, but I'm talking over time, you know, because for drain blocks, it's the water that doesn't quite help it. So there's all those types of things.
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Oh, here's one of my favourites. Okay. Do not build your garden beds higher than your cladding on your house or past the vents or the weep holes.
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Amelia: I think we've mentioned this before.
Frank: But so many people do it. I just had a job down Hobart where they had to get a special report done because the clown of a concreter poured footpaths and paving everywhere, 20 or 25 mil up off the weep holes.
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So these are the drainage points.
Amelia: Oh, no. So the water can't get out?
Frank: No, it can't get out.
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Amelia: Oh, dear.
Frank: It's just like, oh, yeah, that's really stupid. I mean, you can see those holes.
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Brand new house. Brand new house. All these vents.
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Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: It's not as if they're anything new. They've been around for decades.
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Amelia: Wow.
Frank: Just mental. So, sorry, my frustration there, because you're paying people lots of money to do their job properly and they've put the concrete in the wrong spot.
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Amelia: Yeah, disappointing.
Frank: Oh, very much so. Maintain trees.
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Don't let trees grow too close to your house.
Amelia: Yes.
Frank: They'll break your house.
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They'll break your footings.
Amelia: They can do a bit of damage.
Frank: Oh, massive.
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Amelia: And the roots of them as well.
Frank: Yeah, that's what I mean. The roots get under, snap your house in half.
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And I'm not saying that lightly either. So be very careful how you do that. And you see that with older houses.
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You can go there and see all the roots tearing up the driveway's footpath. But I've seen it break houses, break slabs.
Amelia: Pipes even.
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Frank: Yeah, get into your pipes. Yeah. Not so much the PVC.
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It's all the old clay earthenware.
Amelia: Yes. Yeah.
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Frank: It's always pleasant when you have a blocked up clay earthenware pipe and it backs up, especially if it's a sewer line.
Amelia: Yes, I've had experience with that at my rental property.
Frank: Oh, our mate, Jared, who has been on our podcast, one of the early ones.
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He had it just recently.
Amelia: Yeah, it's not fun.
Frank: No.
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Amelia: Especially in winter when things are already boggy.
Frank: Yep. And when it explodes and you've got to clean it.
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Amelia: Yeah, that's, well, I won't call it a situation.
Frank: It's a shit show. Sorry.
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Oh, man. All right. What about inside your house?
Amelia: Yeah, what are you going to maintain inside your house? I guess the bathroom would be a good one.
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Frank: You've got to keep it as dry as possible.
Amelia: I mean, the amount of times you get sort of mould and stuff building up.
Frank: That's why I like to leave the fans on for a long time.
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Amelia: That's a good idea. If you've got a good fan. I mean, some of them are just rubbish.
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Frank: Oh, there's some really bad fans. It's interesting, a lot of people put two fans in bathrooms.
Amelia: Yeah, I believe that because it's, yeah.
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Frank: Because it just doesn't dry it out properly. One, I think, that's overlooked is your exhaust fan over your stove.
Amelia: Oh, good idea, yeah.
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Frank: All that greasy fat, yuck. At least we clean it out on a regular basis. But that's just general maintenance.
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But if there's any cracked tiles in your bathroom.
Amelia: Yeah, that would be a problem.
Frank: Yeah, you've got waterproofing under there, it should be okay.
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But you do need to get it fixed, broken down silicon.
Amelia: Yes. Yeah.
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Frank: We're just telling you lots and lots of different things you need to look out for because the damage that could be quite astronomical, especially with grout that fails. Mind you, the grouts now are fantastic that they use. Heat pumps or AC, depends which part of the country you're from.
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Cleaning those out on a regular basis, all the dust and muck in there.
Amelia: Or if you've got a wood fire.
Frank: Oh, yeah, we love our wood fires here.
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Amelia: There's a lot of those here in Tassie. Oh, massive. I don't have one.
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Frank: I don't like the Huntsman's spiders.
Amelia: Oh, in the wood. The visitors that come with the wood.
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Amelia: Yeah, yuck.
Frank: Very popular. Again, you've got to clean your flues on a regular basis.
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Amelia: Yeah, exactly.
Frank: What about your electrical? I see new houses are pretty good. But if you've got an older house, I think Hydro still has those testers that go into the power pipe.
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Amelia: Yeah, you're probably right.
Frank: Yeah, it was a great invention by them. They can tell you once it hits certain lights on this testing thing, it goes into your wall plug, one of the plugs anyway.
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So as soon as it hits certain lights, you've got a problem. It could be an earthing problem. It could be something, whatever, short-circuiting or whatever, because a few of the uninvited furry guests might have a bit of a chew.
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Amelia: Yes, yes.
Frank: Your little rats and mice are pretty amazing where they can get into. Smoke detectors.
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Amelia: Actually, that's a good one.
Frank: Yep. It's the one that's overlooked a lot, though.
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So all new homes have to have wired in smoke detectors. And if you don't, if they're not wired in, you can get these guaranteed 10-year lithium ones. They're pretty good.
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They're now pushing now to put them into every bedroom.
Amelia: Are they really?
Frank: It's not a bad idea. Considering just recently there's been a few deaths.
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It's winter. People have got the heaters, depending on the types of heaters, and some people that didn't make it out of their house.
Amelia: Yeah, right.
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Frank: I'm assuming it was something like they didn't have detectors in old homes.
Amelia: And you even hear of those, you know, the lint build-ups in the washing machines. In the dryers.
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Frank: Don't you mean the dryers?
Amelia: Oh, dryers. Sorry, yeah, the dryers.
Frank: We had that.
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Amelia: You had that? Did it catch on fire?
Frank: No, but it smoked like a chimney.
Amelia: Really?
Frank: It was unbelievable. It freaked me out.
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Ours was ducted outside, and there was smoke outside.
Amelia: Oh, wow.
Frank: And I got my wife out.
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What's going on? I don't know. Turned it off. And then what do we do? I don't know.
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I pulled the plug. I grabbed it off the wall, and I took it outside. And she was pretty warm.
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Amelia: I reckon.
Frank: So I just left it outside to cool down and then pulled it apart. And there was this huge layer of lint around the drum.
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Yeah, okay. Yeah, don't think of that one. That's a good point.
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That's an appliance maintenance.
Amelia: Yeah.
Frank: So there's lots of things there that can get you caught out.
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Insulation.
Amelia: That's a good point.
Frank: How do you maintain it when it's in your walls?
Amelia: Hmm.
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Frank: You can't.
Amelia: No.
Frank: You've got to make sure it's installed properly in the first place.
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Amelia: That's right. I guess you can do your ceiling if you've...
Frank: Well, that's it. Yeah.
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The older houses have pretty big drafts in the ceilings. The new ones don't. So getting up there to make sure all the insulation is sitting right, you know, and there's no gaps.
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What about your garage door?
Amelia: Like if it's electric, do you mean?
Frank: Well, even if it's just a manual door, making sure that's well maintained. It's not the worst of the door that doesn't open properly.
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Amelia: True. Very true.
Frank: Yeah, so there's a few little tips there of maintaining your house. Now, what's that got to do with building design? There's actually a lot.
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It comes down to what I said before. It's about choosing the right products for your house. The quality of the items that get installed in the house has a big bearing.
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Like I said, we don't like designing box gutters if we don't have to. Having good ventilation in the wall and roof cavities so you don't have condensation. Condensation has become a very big problem here.
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And part of that is because we don't ventilate our rooms properly because people don't open their windows during the middle of winter. But how is to get the dirty air out, the moist, dirty air out?
Amelia: Exactly.
Frank: So that's going to change in the future.
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I can see us having heat recovery ventilation systems. We've spoken about that. Where it sucks out the dirty, moist air, brings in the clean outside air and then transfers the heat from the inside air to the incoming outside air.
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Europeans have been doing this for a long time.
Amelia: Yeah, we're a bit behind the times, aren't we?
Frank: In a lot of ways, we are.
Amelia: Yeah.
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Frank: But I would also encourage people, if you've got moisture build-up inside your house, i.e. in the wake-up of the morning there's moisture all on your windows, I'd seriously talk to some people about getting one of these systems in place.
Amelia: So you can retrofit them?
Frank: You can. It doesn't have to be fully ducted.
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It could be one that just bangs on the wall, goes inside, outside. Again, we spoke about putting extra fans in bathrooms and keep the fans going for a good period of time after showers and stuff so that it can dry the room out. We definitely don't dry our wet areas very well.
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And make sure your dryer is ducted outside, otherwise your laundry is going to be like a sauna.
Amelia: Oh, exactly.
Frank: So now everything I said there, though, is what we do in new houses because of the way they're designed.
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Amelia: It's a bit harder, I guess, for some of the older houses.
Frank: Yeah, but if you're doing renos and retrofit and you don't necessarily need a designer, but some of these items are really important to consider as part of your renovation. You know, if you do a reno on the bathroom, you don't need us to do that, you're just replacing the shower to the same spot, bath, vanity, toilet.
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But really consider putting really good fans in that duct outside. It's going to save you a lot of heartache, the room will be a lot drier, and that means less chance of mould. No one likes cleaning mould in their bathroom.
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Amelia: Oh, no way. That's no way at all.
Frank: So, same with the types of cleanings we choose.
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There's some weird, wonderful stuff that's out there. If you love the look of raw timber on the outside of your house, that's great. Be prepared for maintenance.
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It's a natural product. There are some out there, I'll use Weathertex. You know, I'm a big fan of the Weathertex.
(21:54 - 22:02)
You can coat that or you just let it go. It's designed to just go grey, go naturally. Okay.
(22:03 - 22:11)
Amelia: All of them?
Frank: Well, no, the Weathertex, they've got the Eco Natural.
Amelia: Oh, yes.
Frank: Oh, sorry, just the natural finish, and it can just go grey.
(22:11 - 22:21)
Amelia: Okay.
Frank: But they have got a product where, hey, I don't like that anymore. You can put this product from Weathertex and it will strip it off and back to natural again.
(22:21 - 22:27)
And you can either put a clear coat, put a coating on it, do whatever you like.
Amelia: Oh, nice.
Frank: It's a pretty versatile product.
(22:27 - 22:36)
And there's a few other ones out there. Carter Holt, I believe, have their Ecoply. I'm not sure if Boral still does their natural timber finish.
(22:37 - 22:42)
So, it depends if you like all those natural finishes. They do look very, very nice, but be prepared to maintain it. Mm-hmm.
(22:43 - 22:54)
It depends how much you like maintaining your house.
Amelia: Yeah, it's a big investment, your house, at the end of the day. And I guess you have to be prepared as to how much time you want to put into looking after the materials.
(22:55 - 23:14)
Frank: Look, everyone loves a timber deck, right? But sometimes what we do, we get asked to put a timber deck in, but it's only like 200 or 300 mm above the ground. And I actually put the option for them, do you like doing maintenance? And they go, no. Well, instead of putting a timber deck down, you can actually put block retaining walls around and put pavers there.
(23:15 - 23:20)
Mm-hmm. By putting pavers in, the maintenance has just dropped massively.
Amelia: Oh, yeah.
(23:20 - 23:28)
Frank: Just hit it with a high-pressure cleaner. The only time you need maintenance on pavers and concrete, well, this is hard. It's got a barbecue and it drops fat from the barbecue on there.
(23:28 - 23:35)
And that's pretty nasty, not easy to rectify. Except with pavers, you can flip them upside down.
Amelia: Yeah, that's true.
(23:36 - 23:48)
So that's one way of doing it. But how much maintenance do you want to do? If everyone's busy now, why would you want to do maintenance? So lots of things to consider, isn't it? Heaps of things to consider. Glass balustrades.
(23:48 - 23:51)
Amelia: Yes. Wow. That would get dirty so easily.
(23:51 - 23:57)
If you've got a little poochie, a little doggie, a little mess.
Amelia: Yeah, licking it.
Frank: A little licking it, shoving their little wet nose up against it.
(23:57 - 24:03)
You've got the slime marks at a certain height all the way across. That's, yeah, you've got to keep cleaning the glass.
Amelia: Exactly.
(24:04 - 24:17)
So never ending.
Amelia: Never ending. So what would you recommend for anyone that wants to reduce their maintenance?
Frank: Will be wise in what you choose for your finishes and your products that you use.
(24:18 - 24:28)
And I think definitely ask your building designer or your architect or your builder because they're going to have heaps of experience in this.
Frank: Oh, very much so. That's why I'm still a big fan of brick.
(24:28 - 24:36)
Brick maintain, you know, it's easy to maintain. Mind you, some of the new lightweight claddings, wow.
Amelia: They're pretty good, aren't they?
Frank: They're pretty good.
(24:37 - 24:45)
Yeah. So, and that's just from your external finishes, whether you look at your roof, tiles, Colorbond. I mean, they're both great finishes and they will last a long time.
(24:47 - 24:56)
Unless you're near the coast.
Amelia: Yes.
Frank: So you're near breaking surf and that's where you get that salt spray over the building and it will affect your building, just a fact.
(24:57 - 25:03)
Amelia: Any sort of harsh condition will obviously speed up that process.
Frank: Oh, you're going to have heaps of maintenance. Yeah.
(25:03 - 25:09)
And that's where holiday shacks become a bit of a chore when people are trying to maintain it. Mm-hmm. So, yeah.
(25:10 - 25:14)
Amelia: All right. Well, we might wrap it up there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Building Design Prime Time Podcast.
(25:15 - 25:28)
Frank: Catch ya’s later.
OUTRO
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