Please note that this episode was transcribed automatically and therefore may contain some errors
Nadia (00:01.49)
And here we are. Good morning, Liz. I am so happy to have you here. We have a wonderful episode coming up today with Liz Kislik. She is a professional business coach and has over 30 years of experience. She's a management consultant. She's a frequent contributor to Harvard. Say.
Liz Kislik she/her (00:05.812)
Morning, Nadia.
Nadia (00:31.618)
She's a frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review and Forbes. She has an amazing TED Talk called Why There's So Much Conflict at Work and What You Can Do to Fix It. And I suggest everyone go immediately. We'll link this in the show notes to go and watch it. She's worked with family-run businesses, national nonprofits, Fortune 500 companies. And I can't tell you how I'm excited to have you here on the show with us today. Welcome, Liz.
Liz Kislik she/her (00:59.584)
I'm looking forward to whatever we do.
Nadia (01:03.126)
So great, let's hop right into it. And let's start with just, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got started in coaching?
Liz Kislik she/her (01:10.744)
Sure. I came to it really as a management consultant. I worked for a marketing agency when I got out of college and then after that I opened my own practice. And most of that focused on customer service, inside sales support, because I came out of an agency that had a call center and I managed that.
I was 23 and managing 300 employees in that call center, which hardest job I ever had in my life and really taught me so much. But therefore when I started my practice, what people were interested in were those experiences. So, I started out.
Nadia (01:49.518)
can't even imagine.
Liz Kislik she/her (02:06.024)
advising on call center management, on customer service, all that sort of thing. But everything that goes wrong in an organization, one way or another, ends up being a customer service problem.
Nadia (02:22.122)
I was just going to say, so what attracted me to this topic today was in your coaching and what I've seen in your TED talk is this how to deal with people and knowing now that your background is coming from customer service and call centers, this makes total sense. And I can imagine you have millions of experiences that helped contribute to how to effectively communicate with people.
Liz Kislik she/her (02:50.428)
Yes, because you see everything that goes wrong. And you see how people upset themselves, are upset by other people, can't get over it, you know, all those kinds of things. But being in a client's call center, to figure out what was going wrong for the customer, I often was able to look back upstream and figure out what processes weren't working
Nadia (02:53.975)
Exactly.
Liz Kislik she/her (03:19.924)
in the company or where there was internal conflict that was preventing a good resolution, those kinds of things. So some clients were interested in hearing about that and I gravitated toward those clients. So I did more and more work for people who wanted to know from the beginning of the process, from the strategy, from the organizational issues. How do you build a company?
that focuses on growth for sure, because virtually every organization that I've worked with has wanted that. But also to do it well enough that you reduce the amount of friction or grit in the gears and make things work smoothly. And so some of that is very operational and procedural, but a ton of it is how people think about each other, speak to each other, and behave
when they are supposed to be working collaboratively.
Nadia (04:22.186)
Yeah, and just to break that down a second, and we'll go into this in a little bit, I'm really curious, and you do this in your TED Talk, you go through those stages. How is it that you recognize, or you get to that common ground, especially right from the start, you know there's friction, right? Like, what is it that you would suggest people do to even open up that conversation, because...
You know, many times we come into a meeting and we already have those preconceived notions like this is not gonna go well, I know this person is not on my side or has a completely different viewpoint and I wanna drive this home and I have to get this done. What would your suggestion be to make that common ground?
Liz Kislik she/her (05:07.116)
So I laughed a little because what your question made me think about was my father's mother, actually, who when it was raining or there was bad weather, would say literally, the weather is against me. That was how she expressed her concern about what was precipitation. So this is what people do. It's what we all do, me included.
And I'm going to speak about this now mostly from inside the organization and not specifically from the perspective of dealing with customers, because there are often extra things you have to add when you're dealing with customers. But internally, if I could say there is one thing, and I don't emphasize this in the TEDx, because that came from a different perspective. Find whatever you have in common.
Liz Kislik she/her (06:08.076)
goals on behalf of the company, you may not like each other, which is a decision, by the way. It's a decision not to like somebody else. It's not inherent. We choose because we judge in some way that this person is, to quote my grandmother, against me. If we thought they were for us, then we like them fine.
Nadia (06:12.339)
Mm-hmm.
Nadia (06:16.182)
This is true. Yeah.
Liz Kislik she/her (06:34.8)
It's really about this judgment that in some way they are not on my team or I'm not safe with them. If we can find values, goals, purposes, even common interests, this is, you know, to some extent, when men, usually men, talk about sports first thing. It is a way of building common ground with each other.
even if they're not so fond of each other.
So looking for that hook, which is described by John Gottman, who is one of the most famous researchers in marriages and marital relationships. And he and his wife, Dr. Julie Gottman, they describe this process of turning toward each other.
And to do that, you have to feel you have something in common. And once you have that and you can turn toward the other person, then there's the possibility of building on that to actually do the work you need to do.
Nadia (07:49.334)
Yeah, and well, you said for men, this was interesting. For men, that could be sports. For women, what would that look like? I don't know if you have any specific examples or situations.
Liz Kislik she/her (08:01.556)
So my experience is that men, and by saying that, I don't mean to say all men. I am being reductive and generalizing wildly. But many men have a practice, a habit of knowing that sports is a safe topic. So talking about the most recent ball game, tennis match.
whatever it is.
Women are less patterned in that way, which actually, oddly, can make it harder. Because then you have to find a subject. There is not the same assumption that women have the same things in common. Now, for your life, that may actually be better. Because the smorgasbord of all the things you could talk about is much larger.
Nadia (08:42.327)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (09:03.736)
tastier, more interesting. But in that initial moment, what to talk about, it can be more difficult. So when I'm doing icebreakers, for example, at the beginning of facilitation, a very common one has to do with what movie or TV program or streaming, whatever it is you're watching right now.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes they don't like each other's shows. You know, that can be difficult.
Nadia (09:32.426)
You have that bias. Why would you watch that show?
Liz Kislik she/her (09:35.332)
Exactly. So in general, when I'm working with people as opposed to leaving them alone to find their own way, I start with talking about why we are here together and creating commonality in that way. Other people do things depending on the size of the group, like asking about whose birthday it is.
Usually, in a large enough group, there's someone whose birthday it was today or this week, and often you find people who have the same birthday or the same birthday month. You can build commonality that way. There are a lot of different gambits, but the thing that's most important at work is figuring out what the work purpose is and that we all support that purpose. And that gives us a kind of common ground.
Nadia (10:34.35)
That's true. I mean, at the end of the day, we should be all working in a company towards the same common goals, right? So we can agree and go back to that and say, hey, this is what we are really focusing on in our second half of the year, and how is this proposal or how is this working towards this common goal, and this is why I think it would be helpful or etc. That's good.
Liz Kislik she/her (10:41.064)
Right. That's right.
Liz Kislik she/her (10:59.168)
Right, right, right. It's like renewing what is supposed to be, and you hope is, a shared commitment.
Nadia (11:11.206)
Absolutely. So we just dived in here and we already started talking, breaking down all of the tips and tricks here. I'll backtrack one second because we started talking about how you got into coaching and this is so interesting that you had this extensive background in customer service, which has served great purpose. From there, how did you decide you were ready? This is the moment I'm going to open up my own coaching business and take that leap.
Liz Kislik she/her (11:39.704)
So that's a little peculiar. It was not my life's plan. I definitely wanted to work. After college, all my friends went to grad school, but I wanted to work because I believed that was where the action was. You could make stuff happen, and it just seemed much more exciting to me. I worked for this marketing firm, which was privately owned and operated.
and the owner died without a succession plan. I'd been there about eight years and...
Nadia (12:11.598)
Okay.
Liz Kislik she/her (12:18.46)
A new management came in and I did not agree with the direction in which they were going. They accepted kinds of assignments from clients that I didn't feel were necessarily good for the consumers that were involved. And I felt the company was not going in a good direction and I didn't have the authority to change that.
I spoke about it, but I did not have the final authority. And so I decided to leave. And within a week, consultants who were already in the field who knew me because I was active in the trade association and in the business community reached out to see if I would be willing to take on some of their work. So less than a, it.
Nadia (13:11.958)
Wow, what a compliment.
Liz Kislik she/her (13:14.908)
Yes, that is right. Thank you, Daja. I just thought I was really happy because I wasn't sure what to do. At the time I was pregnant, I didn't really want to go interview for a VP of customer service job somewhere. I never really operated.
Nadia (13:18.127)
That's an amazing compliment.
Liz Kislik she/her (13:42.096)
I certainly was deferential to authority because that was appropriate to do, but I never really operated as if I had a boss. I was pretty independent from the beginning. So I didn't know what I was going to do, and there was work right away. And from that, just starting to reach out to the people I knew, business came in and
Yes, it will be 36 years this December.
Nadia (14:18.114)
Wow. Congrats. That's amazing.
Liz Kislik she/her (14:19.508)
Yeah, thank you. And you asked, how did I come to coaching? And that's really because as a management consultant, you are often working on projects that involve multiple departments, big plans, all kinds of things. But that doesn't mean people wanna do the thing you write down as the good thing to do. And if you want people to buy it,
Nadia (14:42.778)
Right.
Liz Kislik she/her (14:49.064)
and to do it, and then also exactly to your earlier point, to get along with each other, you have to speak to them about their behavior or their language or why this is worth it for them, even though their instinct is that it's not.
Liz Kislik she/her (15:08.384)
It's just, it doesn't work to try to force people. Even if you have hierarchical authority, forcing people only lasts for a short period of time because good people will leave. And so what you get left with are people who are not as creative or not as careful or not as employable. If you want, certainly not as collaborative, right.
Nadia (15:32.539)
Yeah, or not as collaborative, for sure. Yeah.
Liz Kislik she/her (15:37.372)
Right. So if you want growth and creativity, you have to learn to deal with people as they are. And that led to coaching.
Nadia (15:49.094)
What a journey. And I'm just going to pull out a couple of things here because you said some amazing things along the way and a lot of poignant things. One, that you left your job while you were pregnant, which is amazing and an accomplishment and takes a lot of courage to do. And I can't even think about what that would mean for me. I was...
acquired my company was acquired while I was on maternity leave and that was a big source of initial anxiety for me. So that step of you just saying, you know what, I am not okay with how the company is running and it's not aligned with my ethics and I don't feel comfortable. So I'm leaving and just knowing and following your strength that something else would come up and doing that in the situation. That is that is an incredible.
Liz Kislik she/her (16:23.736)
For sure. For sure.
Nadia (16:45.322)
incredible moment. So props to you for that. And I hope all our listeners take inspiration from that. Because we shouldn't stay in situations where we're not feeling aligned or, you know, really in, yeah, aligned with what we're doing in our company, right? We spend so much of our hours and time at work that if you're working for a company or for a business that's not, you know, not...
not doing what you think you should be doing in the world. That's not gonna work. The other thing is that people started reaching out and you notice that being pulled into these management projects, people needed help to come and get those projects done because they were not on the same page. They were not aligning and you can't force people. This should be, we always joke that we're gonna create a t-shirt line with all of the best quotes from our.
from our guests. And I think this is one of them. You can't force people. You can't get people to do what they don't want to do. And so you have to come to that common ground and really get into the grit and the baseline here of what actually has to come into common ground and get people to work together. Yeah, so you got into the coaching and you've been doing it for 36 years, which is incredible.
And now, what is something in your job that keeps you coming back for more? What are you so passionate? Why do you keep doing it? And what is something that you're proud of that you're working on right now?
Liz Kislik she/her (18:25.368)
So if I may Nadia, I just want to go back and say something as a caution for your audience. It worked for me to take this big risk. But I want to be clear that I am a person of privilege. I mean, I had an Ivy League degree. I'm white. My husband had a very good job. We needed two incomes.
Nadia (18:31.479)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (18:55.76)
we had enough money that we had some savings, it wasn't that I was in direct risk. And although you know, I believe 100% that you should not stay if your values are being violated or even if you're unhappy, you know, there doesn't have to be any terrible moral compromise. It can just be you don't think the management's very smart or that you could have a better role.
Be sensible about it and check out what's out there. I mean, I did it a little precipitously. I don't know that I would encourage everybody to do that. Yes. Yes, thank you. Just for safety's sake.
Nadia (19:28.643)
Mm-hmm.
Nadia (19:36.994)
Well, you should get your ducks in a row. You should do your research. You should evaluate your situation. Yes. Yes, yes.
Liz Kislik she/her (19:46.46)
Okay, so the stuff that is exciting to me, generally, what I love the most, I work with quite a number of family businesses, and that's been true through the years. And they are exciting because you see how people's lives are so attached to the business. And...
multiple generations, you know, there's a kind of, oh, this is gonna sound dramatic, but there's a kind of sacred honor in supporting that work and helping people teach their children how to have a good business. And so I love that. Often in family businesses, you get a very high proportion in the leadership.
of people who are eager to learn and do better. And one of the things that's really important to me with any client is are they willing to see their own responsibility in a problem and shift once they understand? With support, because all of us have longstanding things that we do that we don't like about ourselves and we don't necessarily change them. But...
that they are willing for the sake of the business to consider alternative points of view and to be helped to move in a new direction. I love that, that really floats my boat. And on top of that, I have actually finally started my own family business in the sense that I brought my son into the practice just recently. And the idea that
Nadia (21:34.87)
Okay.
Liz Kislik she/her (21:41.128)
We are working together and we're having a fabulous time and that is so lucky. You know, who would know that? You can't always, yes, yes. And we're doing wonderfully and he has already started working with one of my clients and they're doing wonderfully and he will go on and find his own clients and watching him grow in the process, that's exciting too.
Nadia (21:46.922)
Yeah, that can be sticky sometimes. It can work or it could not work. Yeah.
Nadia (22:11.906)
That's great. I love that. And it can be, you know, you've coached all sorts of people. And a question that popped in my mind while you were saying this, I can see why working with family-run businesses is always stimulating, right? Because you have, at the end of the day, that really underlying passion that people want to keep this going, right?
Liz Kislik she/her (22:32.866)
Yes.
Nadia (22:33.126)
And that might not be the case with a Fortune 500 company. What are some of the differences then that you see that you have to address with a larger global company?
Liz Kislik she/her (22:43.884)
Good. For me, this is a matter of taste. This is not a hard and fast rule for other people.
I'm just not a fan of bureaucracy and red tape. So for example, a fortune company will have a contracting process that could go on for quite some time before you get things resolved. I find that frustrating and I don't have the patience for it. I write a little email, we're good to go. That's my preference.
That also means though, that I don't necessarily, I may have longevity. I've been working with one of my clients for 30 years on and off. But the jobs, the projects are not necessarily of the size you would have in a large public company. For the people inside the organization, in a larger company,
often the hierarchy is clearer. Your sense of career paths is visible from the beginning. In owner-operated businesses, things can be much more changeable. There's much more of what I'd call incremental opportunism, for example, as opposed to long-standing plans that get carried out.
Nadia (23:58.958)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (24:19.048)
it can be more changeable. And so it really depends on what you like. I like the change and curiosity about what's next.
Nadia (24:30.198)
Okay, let's get into a little bit, what we started our conversation with is, how do we deal with people and what that looks like? And so we talked a little bit about what that looks like in a family-run business, how that looks like in a larger team or a one-on-one to find that common ground. What is it that you would say are,
are the main steps to that conflict management and conflict resolution. If you could really break it down into the simplest steps for people to understand according to what you see that works.
Liz Kislik she/her (25:17.236)
I want to say first that conflict management or conflict resolution are both different from something you said earlier, which is what are the best ways to work with people. Because when you're working with conflict, it's because there's already a problem there. Right? So it's like preventative health versus curative health.
Nadia (25:30.402)
Mm-hmm.
Nadia (25:38.48)
Okay, yeah, true.
Liz Kislik she/her (25:47.36)
There are differences in the stance you take and in what you have to do. So I'm gonna address the conflict piece first, and then if you wanna talk about the other, we can. Once you've got a conflict, the first thing to understand is that it's a conflict because somebody in it believes it's a problem. You can have all kinds of disagreements about views and different opinions and...
Nadia (25:54.958)
Okay.
Liz Kislik she/her (26:15.716)
not feel like it's a problem. It's only when somebody feels aggravated that they didn't get their way, or feels that they're not being treated well. It's a decision we make, an interpretation we make about what's going on.
Liz Kislik she/her (26:36.744)
And the backdrop to my whole philosophy of this is that there are two major aspects. And one is the bad interactions that make you crazy and you go home feeling bad and you harbor resentment against someone. That's all your feelings about the people involved. But the rest of it is to look and see
Is there some structural underpinning? Are there procedural norms? Are there rules of operation that are actually creating the basis for the conflict the people are having? And here's a regular example that everybody gets. It is classic for there to be a conflict between sales and operations, for example, or marketing and production, or...
whatever the outside-facing function and the inside get it done function is. That's usually because their rules are different, they're evaluated differently, and they're rewarded differently. The outside-facing people are supposed to do whatever they need to do to make the outsiders, whether it's the customers or the legislators or the PR people.
Nadia (27:39.661)
Yes.
Liz Kislik she/her (28:02.844)
feel good and want more. And that often means customizing onesie twosie stuff, bending over backwards, doing extra. Inside the house, the production people are worried about accuracy and standardization and cost reduction. Yes, meeting the deadline. How are we going to do it?
Nadia (28:26.014)
Meeting the deadlines.
Liz Kislik she/her (28:33.224)
and they get compensated for being very good at these opposite kinds of functions. So of course they get aggravated with each other.
Nadia (28:43.722)
Yeah, because one person is trying, let's say if we, the classic is I work in marketing, the sales in marketing, right? The salespeople wanna get that sale. They wanna get that client on board. They wanna get that campaign run. They wanna get the money in. And then on the other side, the production side, let's say the marketing side, we have to make sure that our teams can produce that in time. They can set up the campaign in time. They can do whatever in time. And it's like they made these promises to their client. And then now.
this has to actually get done on our side. And we're rewarded if marketing, let's say, gets this certain aspect done on this deadline and with these characteristics and these norms and these standards, and we mauled the salesperson is getting antsy because that's not done and their client isn't pleased. It's classic. This is the perfect example. This was so easy for me to now completely understand why we're at each other's throats all the time. Very true.
Liz Kislik she/her (29:40.505)
Right. So that means you have to work, right, you have to work at the problem in two different planes or realms altogether. One is, it is generally good to have trusting relationships in which you believe that the other person shares your values, wants the same larger good
Nadia (29:43.534)
How do we fix it?
Liz Kislik she/her (30:08.556)
that you want and that it's the details that need to be worked out. Not that they're against you, that you all want the same thing and that you treat each other in ways that demonstrate that. So that's why I'm laughing thinking of one of my clients where a senior leader talks all the time about we have to respect each other, but he doesn't actually understand how to make that happen.
on top of pre-existing disagreements where there is no trust, or where people have done each other dirty in the past. It's hard to overcome those things. So that interpersonal piece, and there are loads of things to do about it, but it's challenging. But if you keep, not in detail, but if you keep rewarding people for having opposite
Nadia (30:47.203)
Mm-hmm.
Nadia (30:58.594)
We can't break that all down in one podcast episode. Yeah.
Liz Kislik she/her (31:09.356)
goals and practices, and you never look at how you compensate them.
they'd be kind of foolish not to follow the money, wouldn't they? So that is really an executive level problem because if we don't want this behavior, we have to change the conditions. And those conditions are actually stronger than any behavior modification stuff we're gonna try to do with the people themselves. And that's why I said before, there's a different...
Nadia (31:22.242)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (31:46.924)
difference between managing a conflict that's pre-existing and going back to the time when you don't have conflict and making sure everybody feels that they are part of one team even if that's subdivided and that their big goals are the same.
Nadia (32:06.238)
So let's talk about that for one second. So we talked about the conflict when there's already conflict. So what are some of your insights on getting people to align when maybe there's not necessarily a conflict. Let's say there's a new team that's been formed or there's a new project that's coming up and we have to get people on board to move forward. And so there's not necessarily a conflict already, but we have to make sure everyone is...
on the same page and getting it done.
Liz Kislik she/her (32:39.116)
Good. Seems like it should be simple, but it's not. Right. So, again, there are multiple pieces. One is that if you are starting a new initiative, there really needs to be great clarity about what it is you're trying to do. Because I'm sure you've been in meetings, and most of the people listening to this will have been in meetings.
Nadia (32:43.166)
It seems like that, but it never is.
Liz Kislik she/her (33:07.244)
where two people can use the same language and actually mean something different. On the customer service side, for example, we want our people to be friendly. Well, what does friendly mean? Does it mean chatting for half an hour about anything the customer cares about? Does it mean expressing distress if the customer's unhappy? Does it mean going out of your way?
Those are actually three different things. You could measure them differently, evaluate them differently. If you just leave it for the bottom of the chain to decide, you'll get a very mixed response.
Nadia (33:50.306)
Those are those three different ways in this example of how you would measure that, right? If you want someone, let's say at the response time, it has to be friendly and quick. Well, that's something totally different. You know, if someone was thinking of friendly and quick, but just saying friendly, that's a totally different thing too. And friendly, does that mean dedicating 30 minutes or does that mean dedicating five minutes? And yeah, it's a very wide range of possibilities.
Liz Kislik she/her (34:12.209)
Exactly so.
Right, so clarity about those things. And at the beginning of an initiative, you may not really know, which means that the leadership team has to behave in concert and has to send out the same messaging to the rest of the organization. Even if it's, we don't know yet, we're gonna figure this out and we'll be back to you. But the leadership team has to speak pretty much with one voice.
or the departments, as the stuff trickles down, will disagree with each other's beliefs about what we're supposed to do here in our collaboration. So that's one big thing. The second thing is that in any kind of management or leadership, you have to know your people really well, and what they care about and what they need.
because if your people don't feel known.
Liz Kislik she/her (35:22.72)
They have to in some way establish for themselves that they are okay to be there.
If they feel, whatever level they're at, that their boss understands them, cares about them, values both their work and who they are as a human being, they are much more willing to try almost anything.
Nadia (35:47.95)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (35:50.464)
They may negotiate parts of it. They may fuss about parts of it. But if they really believe that you understand them and care about their interests, they will give you so much more than even people you pay well, but clearly don't care about. And you need both of those aspects all the time. And that's before any plans and procedures.
are actually documented.
Nadia (36:22.454)
I was just talking with another future guest actually the other day and it was really interesting she shared and we'll go in on that episode with her how she is creating these profiles for everyone in the company where it breaks down who you are, not as in what skills, what can you do, as in who you are as a person. Everyone has their personal profile.
of course, you know, with however sensitive you want to be about it. I mean, I don't know what the extent of that is, but everyone has their personal profile, who they are, what makes them tick, what they're passionate about, what they think they're good at, their strengths, their weaknesses. And that can be not just hard skills, right? And then that's shared with everyone in the team. So everyone knows a little bit about everyone and how they tick and can understand...
You know for me for example, I am a visual learner if you give me an Eight page paper to read to understand how to do something That's gonna be really tough for me. I will do it. It will take me twice as long But if you would just show me and hop on a call and show me how to do it use a tool or do whatever Or send me a video. I will completely get it in you know five minutes, and we're done
And having another team member or a boss of mine or someone in my team know that about me is so incredibly helpful and has saved so much time. It makes me feel good because I'm able to understand it easily and quickly and feel good about getting it done. And my other colleague, whoever that is, knows how to approach me with something.
Liz Kislik she/her (38:12.032)
Very good. That approach will work best at the beginning of something about collecting this information on everybody. I would not encourage it if you feel your people are already unhappy with each other generally. Calm them down first. Get them aligned first. Otherwise,
Nadia (38:20.706)
Mm-hmm.
Nadia (38:33.023)
Okay.
Liz Kislik she/her (38:39.612)
I don't want that person to know about me, right? You can just see how that could backfire. And you wanna limit distribution to the team that has trust, as opposed to mass distribution. You may also have heard, this became quite popular in Silicon Valley a few years ago, and I often recommend it, owner's manuals for the founder.
Nadia (38:42.67)
That's true. Yes, I can.
Nadia (38:50.186)
Right. Trust is the basis.
Liz Kislik she/her (39:08.916)
This is how I like communications. I want you to reach out to me on Slack, or I want a two-page management overview in an email, or these are the hours when it's okay to interrupt me. Anything that a leader can give their team about how best to interact with me, that's incredibly useful, because then people can reduce their fear.
Nadia (39:26.371)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Kislik she/her (39:40.212)
about what's the best way.
Nadia (39:41.774)
how to approach someone, yeah, that's true. And as a semi-new manager for a larger team, I sometimes forget I'm coming from a place where I just think people will approach me and just say what they have to say. I'm a very direct person. And I'm realizing sometimes people like, she's the manager, like, I don't know if I should say that or not. Whereas in my head, they would just say it. So if they didn't say it, it's not a problem.
Liz Kislik she/her (39:57.346)
Yes.
Liz Kislik she/her (40:09.344)
Yes, you just put your finger on a very big deal, which is that people...
misunderstand.
how important their power looks to other people. It might not look like so much to you, because you know the hassles of your job in the middle. But to the people below you, you have power. That's something to be dealt with very carefully. The other thing we fall into, all of us, whatever level we're at, is expecting that the other person can read our mind.
Nadia (40:50.486)
Yes, assuming, assumptions has gotten me into many problems.
Liz Kislik she/her (40:50.912)
That, right? Yes. That they understand. Right. That they understand, that they know what we care about, that they know the way we want something. Most leaders.
are a little unconscious about this. First of all, because we're unconscious about it as people, we think it's obvious, but also because the more power you have, the more people have been catering to you. And so you learn that there is some mind reading going on. You know, they guess well most of the time, and you come to believe that everybody should know what you think, even when they really don't have a clue.
Nadia (41:38.542)
That's another t-shirt right there.
Liz Kislik she/her (41:43.472)
Yeah.
Nadia (41:43.53)
You think they know, but they don't have a clue. Liz, I have thoroughly enjoyed picking your brain on this topic. It's one that I am very much passionate about and want to learn more about. But for sakes of time, we've been talking and talking and we're gonna wrap it up here a little bit. I just wanted to ask you if there was anything else that you wanted to add and share with our audience as one of your takeaways.
Liz Kislik she/her (42:14.124)
So let me say as a kind of wrap up for this.
Liz Kislik she/her (42:21.132)
Humans are not monoliths, which means, you know, we're complicated to understand. But it also means that there's almost always something you can do to build relationship, to get along, to shift what somebody thinks. And so if I could encourage one habit of mind, I'll call it, it is for people to be more curious about each other.
and to wonder why do they keep hammering on this same thing over and over? What makes that so important? I'd like to know more about that. And then in a kind way, truly a kind and generous way to try to find out. Because if you can stay curious, you will come up with new ways to approach even people who have been very difficult.
Nadia (43:19.534)
I love it. That is essential. Thank you for that, Liz. I will be taking that to heart and moving that forward with some of my projects and endeavors and personal goals. So thank you. And lastly, well, I always ask this as the last two things. One is if there's any podcast or book recommendations that you are really driving you at the moment that you're loving and you'd like to share. I don't know.
Liz Kislik she/her (43:49.736)
I'm going to share what is probably one of my favorite books of all time. And it's called The Art of the Possible. And it's by Benjamin and Rosamund Zander. Z-A-N-D-E-R. And actually it's The Art of Possibility, I think. Yep. And it's a wonderful read, very humane. Will give you lots of new ideas.
Nadia (44:05.71)
We'll put that in the show notes.
Okay, we'll find it and we'll link it.
Liz Kislik she/her (44:20.26)
And if anybody wants, I have a free ebook on my website about the interpersonal aspects of dealing with conflict. So exactly to some of the points you've raised this morning.
Nadia (44:35.17)
Yes, please, I have downloaded it and I'm reading through it. I highly recommend everyone go to Liz's site. We'll include that link as well so people can go and check that out. And where can anyone find you if they'd like to get in touch with you directly?
Liz Kislik she/her (44:50.044)
either at my website, which is LizKislik.com, L-I-Z-K-I-S-L-I-K, or of course on LinkedIn.
Nadia (45:00.962)
Thank you so much, Liz. It's been a pleasure.
Liz Kislik she/her (45:04.032)
Really fun to talk to you, Nadia.
Nadia (45:06.614)
Bye. Okay.
