The one with Steven Rowley, author of "The Guncle"

This week we dive into some more gay news, David texts the real Paw Patrol for his son, we rate the top 3 things we're doing to make our kids cool, and this week we are honored to be joined by author Steven Rowley where we talk all things Palm Springs, all things (g)uncling, and why the most interesting thing at the Zoo isn't the meatball launcher.

Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast

Transcript

Gavin: 0:00

Um, all right, one do act three real quick. Yep.

David: 0:05

So buy something.

Gavin: 0:07

I never do it. I never start.

David: 0:08

All right, you start. You start.

Gavin: 0:10

I'm reclaiming my time.

David: 0:13

Maxine.

Gavin: 0:14

And this is Gatrix.

David: 0:29

So I think I painted myself into a little bit of a corner. Um my four-year-old, um, now that he just had his birthday, is already talking about what he wants for his next birthday. And one of the things he says is he wants Paw Patrol to come to his birthday party. So because we've been to a couple birthday parties where like costume characters come. So I said, sure, sure. He goes, No, no, no, no. I want the real Paw Patrol. Okay. And so what I decided to do, I regret it immediately, was I said, Oh, well, I'll just text them. And so I get on my phone and my husband is on the other side of the couch, and I pull up a text to Brian, my husband, and I start texting and I say, Hey, would you mind coming to Emmett's birthday party? And then Brian sent back a text. Sure, that sounds great. And I showed it to him. I went, they just said yes. And his eyes lit up and he started jumping up and down. No, no, every single day since that. He goes, Now Paw Patrol, the real Paw Patrol is coming to my birthday, right? They texted you, right? And he keeps asking me to text Paw Patrol things. And I'm like, oh God, what do I do? I mean, listen, this is 10 months away, but I'm like, I I he is he says it every day. The real Paw, will you text them?

Gavin: 1:46

I said, Well, you're in it. Thank God. I'm really relieved to hear it's 10 months away because I was thinking this was in just a couple of weeks, and I thought, first of all, I can't wait to see pictures of you dressed up as whatever their names are, because I don't remember their names anymore. It's been a while, but uh you've got 10 minutes, 10 months to absolutely make sure he forgets about this and focuses on his having some other characters show up. But this might be something he holds on to.

David: 2:11

Uh I tell you what, every morning he he's like, Did you text Paw Patrol last night? I'm like, Yeah, I I said you up at like 11:30 p.m.

Gavin: 2:20

Um and you and and now you're gonna slowly shift into the gratitude world of being like, how about you stop being so demanding and realize how show me some gratitude for all the efforts I've made in the past, but that's gonna like up the ante if you get somebody to dress up. You know, uh years ago uh we had a princess party, a princess birthday party for my daughter. And my partner and I were sitting around thinking, can we get somebody to show up as a as a princess? And I'm like, oh my God, this reminds me of my friend, a friend who is very princess-like, and she was in a Broadway show at the time. And I'm like, listen, this is so beneath you, so beneath you. But could you come and put on a$25 Amazon bell dress? You know, you're catch fire immediately. You're you're accustomed to wearing$10,000 dresses all the time in shows. But would you demean yourself on a Sunday morning before a two show day and come down and just like take some pictures and hug her? And she said, Absolutely. I mean, with full enthusiasm. Then she got a friend in the show who also knew us who said, Wait a minute, I have a Snow White costume. Put on, they both came down dressed as Belle and Snow White, and I am forever grateful. But uh that was setting a really high bar of these women who were wearing these disgusting costumes for uh just a little while. Um, so I I'm I'm laughing at you and then realizing, oh no, no, no, I'm laughing with you because I fully did that. I have just I am so old and decrepit now. I had forgotten that until you finished your story. So have you noticed some gay dad news of late? There's a little bit of gay dad news in the media.

David: 4:07

Tell us.

Gavin: 4:08

Well, I just want to make sure that you're aware of a couple of things. For instance, we have some progress on the front in Iowa, where a judge blocked the banning of books in Iowa. Of books, of course, I mean, fill in the blank. It's all the don't say gay business along the Florida nutshell of um, you know, gender identity and diversity and anything that even remotely smacks of sexual acts. And the governor there um is undoubtedly going to undoubtedly sign it. But the a judge blocked it and said, no, no, no, you can't do this because luckily they found the loophole of it's incredibly broad. So the definition of um, you know, questionable books. So I felt like that was a a good omen out there um here coming up on a presidential cycle where, oh my God, the shit's gonna hit the fan.

David: 4:56

It's hard for me to feel those like those are wins when the whole predicament in the beginning was stupid and unnecessary. Well, absolutely. But I get it. Like it's a it's a win, right? Like books are not gonna be banned in Iowa. Yeah. But like, why did we even have to waste all of our time even defending that? Yeah. Like, can't we all do other things with our time?

Gavin: 5:16

Yep. Uh, you're absolutely right about that. And I suppose I should have a little less princess-like delight in my voice when I said, Isn't this great? Uh, but I am looking at it as like, please tell me that this is the progress and it'll keep going. Actually, it probably won't, and it'll be get worse before it gets better, especially in the presidential cycle. But you know what? Speaking of conservatives, though, also, uh, you know, the Vatican recently said that they are going to bless gay weddings and they've had an awful lot of conservative pushback. And the Vatican has been like, fuck off, bitch. This we're staying the course. So they bitch, we wear dresses and jewels.

David: 5:50

We are drag queens. We are literal drag queens.

Gavin: 5:55

So there is good shit out there to look forward to. So um, yeah, they're going to the Vatican to get married. Still not gonna do it. Oh no.

David: 6:05

Um, um, did you have a dad hack of the week you wanted to share with us by chance? I do. So I don't know if this is gonna be a full-time um bit we're gonna do, but I just feel like I have all these little hacks. Yeah. And it's kind of like in our Instagram bios like, we should be doing more hacks. So maybe this is hack of the week, maybe it'll be every week, maybe it'll be whenever I fucking feel like it. Yeah. But I was um one of the things, um, if you have younger children, and maybe it's with older children too, Gavin, is that it is really hard when you're taking a photo of them and they know you're taking a photo of them for them to smile earnestly. Yeah. They do this fake teethy just to get through the photo because oh my god, stop taking photos of me. And nobody likes those photos. We all like the like kind of like caught off guard kind of photos. So I am always struggling. My son keeps doing this like teeth thing, and I'm like, stop. I always say stop.

Gavin: 6:55

But they're cute. They're little a five, a four-year-old making a teethy grin. I mean, let me tell you. It's ugly. It's ugly. I hate it. Having a petulant 12-year-old who absolutely will not smile. I miss the cute little teethy grin. But it's not cute.

David: 7:08

He's just like going, ugh, like it's uh for an audio platform. I'm glad everyone got to see that. But so I found a hack. So maybe this is just because my son is egotistical, but I found that if he can see himself, so if he's looking into a mirror or you're holding the phone to where the screen is facing the kid, yeah, they smile earnestly because they can see their face and they're really interested in what they look like. So even if they're not like fully smiling, like a JCPenney ad, but they're at least have a like a neutral or positive vibe. I have found that that is the only way I can get photos of my children where they're not looking fake. So my hack of the week is if you're trying to take a photo of your child and you want them to smile, have them look in the mirror at themselves or at the screen on your phone, and I think you'll get a better picture.

Gavin: 7:52

All right. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. So, how about our top three list, huh? Gatriarch, top three list, three, two, one. So this week's topic is three ways you are making your kid cool. Which I would imagine there were so many ways about uh being able to come at this, right? Like the ways that I think I'm making my kid cool are probably actually making them get beat up um in the, you know, behind the school, um, after school. Or ways that I think that I'm making them cool, they're like laughing at me because I'm such a loser. But in my perspective, the ways that I believe that I'm making my kid cool are number three, I like to host. And by hosting is I just will always want to have an open door policy, and I want my kids to come over and I want their friends to feel comfortable. I don't necessarily have the greatest snacks, but I try to have lots of snacks because snacks are key. So that is making your kid cool, right? Yeah. Number two, the way I'm trying to help my kids feel cool is much to my dismay, I let them dress like complete fucking slobs. Which I realize, thank goodness is the fashion right now. They just wear oversized sweats, which is super cheap, thank God. You know, um, but I I think they dress horribly, but I let them feel like they are cool by um dressing horribly like slobs. And the number one way that I believe I am making my kids cool. We drink a lot of seltzer in our house. A lot of seltzer. And because I'm an insufferable snob, I pronounce it LaCroix. Oh my God, get that. Because come on here. Because come on. Because come on, it's a French name. Come on. My God. Anyway, my kids pronounce it LaCroix, and that's just how we've always pronounced it for the last 10 years because we were down with the pompous way before it became trendy.

David: 9:46

But LaCroix is already a different pronunciation of C-R-O-I-X. Like you don't have to add a third. Oh my god.

Gavin: 9:52

This is how you're welcome. You're welcome. You can you can hold that against me for a very long time. What about you? What is your top three for making your kids supposedly cool?

David: 10:01

So uh number three is that my kids are speaking Spanish as much as we can get them to. So they go to a daycare where Spanish is also taught, but my husband and I also speak Spanish.

Gavin: 10:12

So we will try as we're laughing, I'm laughing at you when you say my husband and I, and I'm just I have the image of you guys speaking Spanish at home. Please tell me that you speak Spanish at home.

David: 10:25

We we do, and why is that funny? No, no. We don't speak like white person Spanish. We're like, give us the quesadilla. We don't say that, but like we try to like uh I find myself saying it, especially when I'm like yelling at the kids, I'll be like, you know, uh come here, and then I'll repeat it in Spanish or whatever. But we're trying to like make Spanish a under like an easy, like, oh yeah, I I know a lot of Spanish. That's awesome. So that's number three. Uh number two, my kids know their 90s pop music. Oh, do they know it? They know that my I can play a like a random, random song from like Mariah Carey, and he knows if it's Mariah Carey or Winnie Houston or whoever. So uh number two, he knows his 90s pop music. Um, number one way I'm making my kid cooler than other kids, they have gay dads. Hells yeah. That's fucking cool, man. Hells yeah. Back in the day it was not cool. Now that's fucking dope. So number one, they have gay dads. That's awesome. I I I applaud you particularly on that last one. That's awesome. So uh next week, uh, our uh top three lists are gonna be the top three ways you're a lesbian.

unknown: 11:29

Okay.

Gavin: 11:30

Y'all, we are upping our game here. You're laughing because I'm reading this, aren't you, David? Uh we are upping our game because we have a New York Times bestselling author on the show. And if you thought we were insufferably pretentious before, well, just you wait. Um, today we are joined by Stephen Rowley, the author of so many books, Lily and the Octopus, which was the aforementioned New York Times bestseller. The editor, named by MPR as one of the best books of 2019, The Celebrants, uh, today's show read with Jenna Book Club Pick. With with the Today Show, uh, Jenna Books Club Club's pick. Oh, Jesus. And but anyway, I'm just leading up to the actual reason that I want to have him here, is because he's also the author of The Gunkle, a Goodreads Choice Awards finalist for 2021, novel of the year, and winner of the 22nd Thurber Prize for American Humor. He may not be a gay dad. He might or might not be considered a gay daddy, but he literally wrote the book on gunklehood. Welcome, Stephen Rowley. And tell us is the secret to life living in Palm Springs, nursing a martini, and wearing a caftan?

SPEAKER_00: 12:43

Well, I'll tell you, I, you know, at my age, the secret to the secret to a good life for me is is moving to Palm Springs uh right before I turn 50 because I am young in Palm Springs. Oh, yeah. I was old in LA. I was middle-aged in San Francisco, but I am a twink here in Palm Springs, and uh I'm happy to turn heads uh at my age anyway I can.

David: 13:07

That sounds fantastic. The secret to life is surviving the length of an intro like that.

SPEAKER_00: 13:11

I know it's about my bad, my bad.

Gavin: 13:15

I literally, yes, I did obviously steal that from your website, but there were so many good good tidbits in there. I need to show the I need to justify our pretension in having you here. So stop being so successful. It's really getting in the way of our introduction.

SPEAKER_00: 13:27

Listen, it's gonna come to an end sometime.

Gavin: 13:29

So milk that 15 minutes. So The Gunkle, uh even though you wrote it multiple uh novels ago, The Gunkel is really a fantastic book. And uh the reason that we wanted to have you here, because we want to hear all of your parenting advice. But before you tell us your parenting advice from your experience with your nieces and your nephews, and to be clear, you are not a father yourself. But what inspired The Gunkel?

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

Yeah, you know, as you say, I'm I'm not a father uh myself. And as an artist and as a writer, I was always sort of very, you know, almost self-conscious of not having that life experience in my arsenal. Um, because no matter what you think of the having and raising of children, it's, you know, inarguably one of life's great emotional uh experiences. And so when I became an uncle, and I am now uh an uncle five times over, plus an honorary uncle to many friends' uh kids as well. Um, you know, I was surprised at the sort of depth and meaning uh I found in those relationships and how much they enriched my life. Um the guncle itself, though, was inspired by my brother uh was coming to visit me here in Palm Springs with his two boys who were uh ages three and five at the time. Uh and yes, they were excited to come see their mysterious uncle who lives in California. They lived uh outside of Boston, uh, you know, who has a swimming pool and where it's warm in the winter. Uh but they were just as excited to spend the week with their dad, who works a lot, and uh uh um, you know, and they they were just excited to have a week of uninterrupted time uh with him. Unfortunately, after 24 hours of being here, he got called back uh to the East Coast. He's an attorney, uh, and he had to be in court to represent a client. Uh and I was left with his two boys, ages three. Uh and by the way.

Gavin: 15:17

Was there any question? Like, did he say, ooh, is this all right? Or was it just like, nope, peace out. I got it.

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

Uh it was uh yeah, somewhere in between the two. I it felt like peace out, um, but you know, and that's how I remember it, but I'm sure there was a little bit of uh negotiation and discussion. And listen, I had a little bit of help uh that week. I'm not saying I did did it all on my own, but um, you know, at by the end of that week, uh, and I had been posting on Instagram uh, you know, along sort of me flailing in my attempts to entertain two very disappointed uh kids. And my editor uh this mid-century modern furniture.

David: 15:53

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They were not interested, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 15:57

Once we blew up every pool float that I owned, you know, their their attention started to wane.

David: 16:02

Uh lots of white unicorns, I gotta let it be.

SPEAKER_00: 16:06

My editor was like, you know, I I've seen you uh sort of tap dancing for your life this week. Uh perhaps, you know, maybe there's something to write about there. And so, you know, the idea for a novel was born.

Gavin: 16:16

That uh I mean, it definitely seemed it it felt so real, it had to be life imitating art, art imitating life. And so um, it is a real pleasure, that is for sure. So, given your experience with them, um did you can you share it with us any of the shit hitting the fan moments that you experienced uh while being a first-time solo dad, as it were?

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yeah, I mean, you know, there were a number of uh mental breakdowns on on probably both of our parts. Um Do you want to hear about their tantrums or mine? Yeah, uh all of the above. All of the above. Uh no, I remember um one point I took them, I took them to the zoo. I didn't even know we had a zoo, but we have a who knows if you have a zoo until you actually have kids.

David: 17:04

It's so amazing like what the world that exists when you have children suddenly you're like, there's a whole fucking ecosystem that I never saw.

SPEAKER_00: 17:12

There is an infrastructure that was completely invisible to me, but that does exist. Um, you know, and I you know, this is part of the charm in placing the novel um in Palm Springs as well, um, is that it is a city that many more people associate with retirement than with um raising children. So sure, you know, it was a bit of not only was I a fish out of water um, you know, in in sort of having those kids for the week, but they were fishes out of water in a in a in a town that's uh associated much more with um with an older population. And so um, but what they wanted to go to the zoo. I took them to the zoo. It's an incredible zoo, the living desert here um in Palm Desert. Uh if anyone has a chance to visit, uh listen, I'm not on the board, I'm not making any money for the zoo.

Gavin: 17:54

They do not you do not have polar bears or no, no, but we do have they do in Palm Springs, but they're a different kind of kind of bear, yeah, that you're thinking.

SPEAKER_00: 18:04

Yeah, and the polar plunge that we take on New Year's, the pool is heated, you know.

David: 18:08

Not running the ocean. It's a crisp 82. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

Um, but you know, this zoo has giraffes and elephants and desert, you know, any desert. They had a cheetah with a meatball launcher. I was like, hey kids, look at this meatball launcher.

David: 18:21

I would like that for my living room.

SPEAKER_00: 18:22

Yeah, exactly. And then the cheetah will take off, you know, get up to its full speed. But all they wanted to see, for some reason, they had it in their head, all they wanted to see was a roadrunner. And roadrunners are like pigeons here. You know, it's like if I knew that, I would have taken you to the Chipotle parking lot. You know, you could have seen pigeons, I mean, uh roadrunners there, but that they they were like refused to look at any other animal and just wanted to see roadrunners. So I tracked someone down, a zookeeper, and said, Hey, listen, do you have any roadrunners? And they had one uh in the aviary who was recovering from a busted leg.

Gavin: 18:57

So I'm just gonna say, like in captivity, watching its friends running around mocking it, and yet this poor thing is living in captivity.

David: 19:06

Yeah, just recovering from a mental breakdown, smoking a cigarette. Yeah. Somebody wants to see me. All right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 19:12

By the way, Roadrunners already are not, I mean, they're lovely birds, but I was led by the cartoons to believe they were like waist high. Yeah. You know, they're not. Right. They're not. They're little, they're just little birds. And so, um, you know, but that's what that's who they identified as that that we that and then I had to buy them, you know, stuffed animal roadrunners at the gift shop and everything. And come home and put band-aids on their legs, and they were of course, they were thrilled. But um, I was like, it's funny that that was the thing that soothed them.

Gavin: 19:40

But it's so it's so simple, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00: 19:42

But I mean, it's so simple, and that was really the lesson there, I think, too, is that um sometimes you know it it's sort of digging underneath what's happening on the surface and finding um the emotional trigger underneath, and then and then trying to address and soothe um that.

Gavin: 19:58

So when your brother came. Back from having to fly and care about other people more than his his brother or his children. Did you find yourself immediately being like, oh no, no, we don't do it that way anymore? Or this is what we've learned here. You don't see, yeah, some things have changed, or you don't seem to understand your children. Did you have advice for him?

SPEAKER_00: 20:18

Uh by the end of the week, I was so exhausted that I he came back, you know, they all, and then they all sort of immediately left. And so uh no, I was like, had we been given some time together after that, I might have intervened with uh-uh-uh. Uh but um, you know, I I've mentioned this before, you know, gay people we love, you know, we have and love to express opinions. And certainly after that week, uh I had developed more of my own. And, you know, and and I was able to channel that uh into the book, I think more though, than in than rubbing it into his face as he already was down, you know, after that, after that week. But, you know, it I did have some things I wanted to say about kids and the and the raising of kids, and and certainly reflective of the incredible values and life experience that queer people can offer um as caregivers and parents. And, you know, it was um, you know, really then meaningful to channel that all into the book.

David: 21:15

Right. You know, that that zoo experience is one of the best lessons I've learned so far as a parent, which is don't trade fun for fun. Where if your kids say, Oh, I would like to do this thing, or they're doing a thing that's fun, but it's not the point. It's like, no, but there's better, there's bigger animals here. There's this, you know, thing where don't try to trade their current fun for some other fun because you will always fail. Oh, it's that that cheetah meatball launcher, which to me, I'm like flying tomorrow to see that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:41

Um like do they sell that in the gift shop? Yeah.

David: 21:44

I mean, listen, but they but they don't like then you pull them from the thing they really loved, and then you're like, you're just trading fun for fun. So that's an interesting example. Also, if you want to express more opinions, start a podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

Yeah, I should. I should. Or maybe maybe I just won't leave this one. You've got your you've got a permanent uh third low host now. Yeah, um, yeah, but you can extrapolate and and make and and open that up more broadly too. And I think you know, one of the things I hint at uh in the gonkel is um, you know, it's okay to to let the kids be interested in what they're interested in in the moment and not freak out and have to define something. So, you know, and I do I've never understood parents who who want to have kids just to end up with little carbon copies of themselves, like you know, like like we any of us are so great that what the world is missing is another version of us, you know. Yeah, and so uh and and to not have to define something, and particularly now, you know, we have a younger generation and and that you know is more fluid and experimental and willing to try on um different roles and pronouns and other and it doesn't mean it's gonna stay, don't panic if your kid is 12 and and saying one thing, you know. They'll figure it out. Um, but to give children room and the grace and the support to um truly express what they're interested in and love them for that.

David: 23:08

Yeah, and just having that space is so important. I mean, I listen in middle school, I wanted to get married to a woman when I was 19. Guess what? Yeah, changed my mind. I changed my mind. But it's so true. Like, like having I would I said this a couple episodes ago. Now that the kids are just like everyone's genderqueer, everyone's bisexual, everyone's pansexual, it it it allows the space for the the the kids who are actually feeling that to be in a safe space to, and if people try it on, they go, Yeah, I thought I was pansexual, but I'm actually not. Great. I mean, like a lot of people want to be a veterinarian and then they're like, Yeah, I don't actually want to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 23:38

I I was able to, I was on book tour last summer and I was able to be home for my niece's uh eighth grade graduation, and she took great pride in introducing me to her teachers, and this is my you know, uncle the the novelist, and she walked me around the school and you know, we walked through the cafeteria and she said, you know, these are where the you know the athletes sit, and this is where you know this group of kids sit, and she pointed to another table, she goes, That's where the they them sit. And I'm like, I was like, Oh my goodness, it's uh but you know, it's not that different than you know, when us, you know, there was where golf kids maybe, or yeah, you know, or the theater kids, you know, of which I of which I was one.

David: 24:15

Yeah, we say I think all three of us on this call. Very much relatable.

SPEAKER_00: 24:18

And but I mean, it there you do need a but that it was so accepting was what what was so remarkable in eighth grade. Uh, you know, I couldn't I could have never imagined um that there even was another person who felt the way I did, let alone um feel comfortable enough to be open with it.

Gavin: 24:33

Yeah, being able to express it. And to your point about why would anybody want to um just uh create a a another one of them, that we do have to get out of our way, out of our kids' way and let them be able to express themselves. But it's hard because you do, as a parent, it's kind of like, you know, we we aren't as a as a parent, you don't get to be the the gunkle, you know, and you do think I have to have this added layer of responsibility to make sure that there's this kid is a complete success. All of the responsibility is on me, or rather, all of the judgment is gonna be on me. I don't get to be the fun one because I have to create, you know, a Harvard ready, perfect child, which is absurd. Those are just societal expectations that we are putting in on ourselves and accepting, which is all bullshit, of course. Um, but uh being able to get out of your own kids' way is really hard, but fundamentally important.

David: 25:24

But I think is also really cool about the gunkle role is that kids see that relationship as a generally safer space than maybe with their parents. So you have this more direct connection, I think, sometimes with the real kid, especially when you get older kids, um, which I think is really beautiful. Um, where like, I'm not gonna tell my dads that, but like just FYI, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, you know, you get to hear a little bit of the tea before the tea is spilled.

SPEAKER_00: 25:53

Yeah, it's interesting that it's it's become um such a such a thing. You know, you worry when you write a book, it first of all, it takes a long time uh to write a book. And then publishing is a long lead industry, so it could be another year, year and a half after the book is finished before it hits bookstores. And then, and then, you know, you've put so much work into it, you want it to have a long shelf life. So, you know, I sort of almost um this is now now going back five years or so, like rebelled against the idea of calling it the gonkall. Um, because you know, that was a a slang word at the time. And and I'm like, I'm not sure of it. What what is the what is um the lifespan of you know something that is a relatively new uh in our vernacular? And so will it will it be a role that sort of sticks uh that people will know what that word means uh third time.

David: 26:40

But also the definition not being so um silly.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like right now it has this sort of air of fabulousness, right? It's like the uncle who's who flies in at Christmas time with with um you know with the larger than life personality, maybe some very opulent gifts, and then and then skips town, you know, in the in the um that, you know, as Mary Poppins did on the the next time the wind changes, you know. Right. Yeah.

David: 27:08

I feel like it's been it's been almost derogatory a little bit the past couple years of like Christmas photo shoots where it's like grab the kid, take the photo, and then throw the kid back on bed.

SPEAKER_00: 27:16

There's a lot of social media uh memes and whatnot on on gunk link. But you're right in that there is absolutely room for a more serious uh uh and caring role sort of underneath. And I love I love that if that's where the definition is going, then I'm all for it.

David: 27:33

Our very first guest for the show, episode one, uh Craig, who lives in um uh Palm Springs as well, has a uh a parental kind of role in this child's life, not as not as official dad, but has this kind of gunkle adjacent dad role. Um, and it's very uh enriching to him and to and to the child as well. So it's uh there's so many other ways of having those intimate relationships um that aren't necessarily like, you know, I created or I am the official father of this child, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 28:04

Yeah, and if nothing else, like I'm grateful to be able to model um, you know, a different way, you know, that that you can be uh your authentic self. Um and I didn't have any, you know, you think back, you know, when I was uh growing up in the in the sort of 80s, you know, I graduated high school in the 1980s. Um and that was uh you you know, the pre-internet, there there weren't gay people on TV even. And if there were, it was sad and tragic, and they lived lonely lives in the shadows, and and those lives were often short. Right. Um, and you know, I was reflecting um recently when I turned 50, and I I thought, um, you know, how much the opposite has been true. My life has been filled with community and joy, and you know, fortunately relatively long. But, you know, my generation is missing the the generation above us, you know, sadly. We were robbed of so many role models. Um, and so the ability then to be um, you know, just by way of being sort of out and writing about queer existences and queer middle age and you know, all these things that I that I write about, it'd be able to model it not just for for my nieces and nephews, but for younger queer people as well as you know.

David: 29:17

I mean David was middle-aged in the 80s, which is an interesting point of view, right there.

Gavin: 29:21

See, I I prepped you for that. Uh in fact, I I know that David was waiting to make an ageist joke when you mentioned yours. I was like a cheetah waiting for my meatball model. You're waiting for your meatball, yeah. You run for it, run for it. Run honey. So, what about your writing process then? Um, do you I'm curious? Um, have all of your inspirations for all of your uh books come generally from uh experiences in your life, or or are you uh as just as imaginative as you possibly can be and just sitting down and thinking, well, what about this? I mean, I'm curious about how you've gotten your inspiration.

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

Yeah, it's a little of column A, a little of column B. I mean, God help you if you are friends with or related to a writer too, because we are sponges, you know, we will steal. Uh, and so careful, careful what you say. Um and so uh yeah, I think it's you know, it's a little bit about observing. Um, it's a little bit about um, you know, some sometimes I'll get an intellectual idea. You know, there's there's no denying that the gunkle is very much inspired by by Auntie Maim, which was a series of novels in the uh by Patrick Dennis in the 1950s, and then was Oh, that's right. It was a series. It started as a series, and then it was a Broadway.

Gavin: 30:34

It didn't just start with a musical? It could be a good idea. No, it did not, let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00: 30:38

A Broadway play with Rosalind Russell and then a movie with Rosalind Russell, and then a and then a Broadway musical with Angela Lansbury and a not very good movie musical with Lucille Ball. Uh, but um, you know, Patrick Dennis was um closeted uh writer in the in the 1950s and and and came out sort of later in his life. He died young, unfortunately. Um, but it came, you know, came out as at least bisexual and was active in the Greenwich Village uh queer scene in the 70s. And, you know, it got me thinking a lot about sort of mid-century, uh speaking of Palm Springs, mid-century uh male writers who wrote these sort of larger than life female characters, perhaps as stand-ins for, you know, I'm thinking of of Tennessee Williams and some other, you know, perhaps as stand-ins for for gay men that they couldn't write about. So it was fun to, you know, so it was an intellectual exercise to try to reclaim a character like that as a career man now that I could openly write about it and not be censored in the same way. But, you know, as you say, life life seeps in. And so I thought I was writing a very much, you know, a straightforward comedy. Um, but uh halfway through the writing process, I lost uh one of my best friends from college to breast cancer, and and she left behind a six-year-old son. And so, you know, the the book, The Gunkle, is, you know, this their Uncle Patrick, uh, who's named after uh, you know, in in honor of Patrick Dennis, the author of the original novels, um inherits his niece and nephew for the summer after the death of their mother. He's also been sort of grieving, and it sort of leads to a season of healing for for all three of them. But you know, when I experienced that loss, and then suddenly I was, I would, you know, Auntie Maim sent her ward off to a boarding school and it sort of sidestepped that issue of grief. But I knew that I wanted to tackle uh, you know, I was thinking about grief and children in a much more serious way. So, you know, it's it's sometimes it starts with an idea, a little bit of your own life experience for the fun parts, and then and and you know, there's some sad true life experience in there as well. It all sort of mixes together to become a book.

Gavin: 32:45

You mentioned that you were originally a screenwriter or attempt uh you were a screenwriter in LA, right? And then, but then Lily and the Octopus was your first novel, right? Correct. What so what was the transition from screenwriter? First published novel.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

There are several in a drawer that that uh I have to put it by will. Like that I should burn them now before someone tries to Harper leave me and publish them after my um Yeah, you know, and we've just been through a tough year in Hollywood where there's been a joint uh writer's and actors strike. And so, you know, there's a lot of waiting that happens in Hollywood, even in the best of times. So you're waiting for a financeer, an actor to say yes, a director, a producer, a studio. Um, and there's all these different layers of yes you have to get through. And and, you know, at the same time, filmmaking is a very collaborative uh art form. There's there's lots of cooks in in the kitchen. And and when I came up with the idea for Lily and the Octopus, it was a deeply personal uh story to me. I wanted to have more sort of soul authority on how to tell it, and I was tired of waiting. And so I um, you know, was at a frustrating point in my screenwriting career. So I embraced the novel format and did all kinds of things that you can't do in screenwriting. Screenwriting has to be, you know, everything visual, you see it on the screen, the action or dialogue. Um, whereas in a novel, things can be very internal. You have full access to what's happening in a character's head, the motion, things going on that you can't necessarily see on the movie screen. And so um, I was inspired to sort of embrace that format. And and I think it's interesting that that's what has really changed my my career.

David: 34:22

No doubt. I ironically started writing for television because I wanted more control of stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 34:28

Well, nowadays I mean television is better than movies, right? They're they're great. Slightly the writer has a little more control in TV.

David: 34:34

I can't tell you how often I've written something, and you know, the months later it it like it comes out like, oh, I'll watch this. I'm like, oh, I don't know what that is. Yeah, exactly. My name's on it. I I did not write that scene. Um, but but yeah, no, having that control as an artist is so hard, and there's just so few disciplines where you are kind of like playwriting is one of the last few where you're like, the playwright is the the big cheese, right? And they can make a lot of decisions where, like you said, a screenwriter, like, great, thanks, bye. You are we we you are not a part of this anymore. No, you uh it's now written by Chuck Laurie. Thank you very much.

Gavin: 35:09

Um so uh but I was curious, in in the process of um no, I completely lost that train of thought. Hold on. Uh Lillian Biggie. On your bio, it does say that all of your books are in uh in the process of being made into movies, which I'm like, yes. Not many people get to say all of his books are being are in the process of uh being made into movies. That's thrilling, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00: 35:40

Yeah, it's different than saying all of my books will be movies right there. You know, it's such a such a gauntlet. Um and sometimes it's a very direct um, you know, point A to point B. And sometimes you get uh an adaptation of a book, you know, 30, 40, 50 years later. It's just you know, each one has its own lifespan and circuitous uh route to the screen. And it and it's sometimes it's like a uh watching like a horse race in a way, like one seems to pull ahead and then you know, fall, you know, somebody drops out and it it you know. So we'll see, we'll see what happens. I I I feel pretty confident though that the gunkle will uh make it to the screen. Um I would imagine. Hopefully, first. Yeah.

Gavin: 36:20

It's like you're watching k children grow up, basically, and you just need to get out of their way and let them have their horse races and let them uh follow their own paths, huh?

SPEAKER_00: 36:29

Yeah, and let them be what they are going to be. You know, I had my say with this with the story, and now it's time to sort of let them free in the world and see um, you know, see how they blossom.

David: 36:40

And hopefully your kids or your screenplays will make you tons of money. Because that's why we have kids, honestly. I was like, maybe one of them will be rich and buying me a boat.

SPEAKER_00: 36:49

That was kind of what I was. Well, listen, you know, not having children myself, I'm like, who's gonna take care of me and my dotage, you know? And so I'm like, hey, remember residuals.

SPEAKER_03: 36:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 36:58

I need I need money to lord over my nieces and nephews. And uh remember, I have uh, you know, a swimming pool and a house in Palm Springs and no natural airs. So come be nice to me.

Gavin: 37:10

Well, David and I would like to be on that list as well. Um, as we're wrapping up here, I do need to point out that your Instagram feed is so fantastic. First of all, you're incredibly um generous with your responses. I reached out years ago just to say I love the gunkle so much. And you you didn't just hit a little there wasn't an automated heart that came back. You said, Oh, so thank you. And it was really nice. But um, I love that you send your thirsty pics from the pool side constantly. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00: 37:39

Keep it well, I will tell you. Well, first of all, the caftan is a very forgiving garment.

David: 37:44

So yeah, the shapeless dress. Shapeless dress, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:48

So um, you know, bravo for that. And you know, and people send them to me now, you know. The the gunkle, you know, the appears on the cover. The there's a you know, the character in a caftan on the cover of the gunkle. And so now people send them to me, which is uh really fantastic and grateful for that. And I even had a was able to um do some modeling for a caftan uh company for their website, which was a lot of fun too.

David: 38:13

Listen, she's 50 and she's a model.

SPEAKER_00: 38:15

She's a listen, I'll uh I'll take any new career that comes that comes my way. Yeah, um, but yeah, I think there's you know, it's a fun intersection of of you know an art and a lifestyle, you know, sort of coming together. Um, and so it's been a lot of fun. I get I I laugh when I'll get a um a DM from someone and be like, dear Mr. Rowley's team, you know, and I'm like, no, no, no, it's just nobody's me. It's just me. And so I do try, you know, I'm because I'm very grateful for um the connection people seem to feel uh to my books. And and um, you know, if you like my if you like my books, I think you know, there's a good chance that we would be friends uh as well. And so I do try to respond as best I can, which isn't to say that sometimes I I need to pull back and and uh protect my time to write, but I do I do try to respond. I I just though my New Year's resolution was I just left Twitter uh January 1st and and there you know social media can be a double-edged sword, right? You know, I'm also I was also the recipient of a lot of hate for for writing a book about um a queer man um uh raising kids, uh particularly in the past you know, two years. It's it's there's a lot of nastiness out there and accusations and um you know terrible people ascribing terrible um motives to to queer uh people who want to have and and raise um kids. And so it's you know, and it's sort of not being a father, it's weird to be on the receiving end of that, but also I'm happy to take those bullets and continue to tell these stories because I think you know, when we look back, um, you know, I never thought when I was coming out more than 30 years ago that I would see Mary. Equality in my lifetime, I never thought I would have the options that I have today in terms of building a family. And so we forget how thick how quickly things have changed. And I think to the extent that things have changed for the better, and and they have, not for all of us, you know, it's not better for our trans uh brothers and sisters. And so um, but it's to the extent that it does get better, I think it's because we've had incredible platforms to tell our stories, and it's much harder to deny someone their basic humanity um if you have heard or read or experienced something about their life. And so I'm just, you know, come at me, but I don't need to be on Twitter every day to receive it.

David: 40:41

No, but you do need Twitter for the porn. I mean, that's what I miss about it most.

SPEAKER_00: 40:44

Well, that's like it's about Tumblr. Bring Tumblr. Well that's what I mean.

David: 40:47

It's like, what's Tumblr or Twitter for, if not for porn? But anyway, sorry to shit on your beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

If only there was some other way to find it on the internet.

Gavin: 40:56

Who knows?

David: 40:57

Who knows?

Gavin: 40:58

Well, thank you, new friend of Gatriarchs. Uh, Steven, it is so fantastic to hear your thoughts. And I mean, David's gonna gag when I say, you are truly making the world a better place. Better place with your platform.

David: 41:11

I am grateful as shit for you. Thank you. He has been talking about you for literally months. He's always like, I think I got this guy. Like, yeah, but like as you know, we're constantly talking about guests and everything, and he has literally been like, I am so excited, I cannot wait. Like, I love this guy. So thank you so much for demeaning yourself. Oh, you guys are our stupid little podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 41:31

Thank you very much. And I promise the book is funny. We touched on some very serious topics today, but it is funny.

Gavin: 41:36

It is it's funny as shit, for sure. So something great happened to me the other day when I, like you, had lost my voice. In fact, I'm not fully voiced right now, frankly, but I was getting my Rachel Ray on. And I was, I don't think I was barking at my kids, but I was in the midst of like morning mayhem, do this, do that. I'm gonna do this, da-da-da-da-da-da. And my son came up and put his arm on around me and he said, Hey dad, what happened to your voice? And I thought, oh, he's really like with full care. He was really concerned that daddy wasn't gonna be able to scream at him anymore full voiced.

David: 42:17

With the same porosity, yeah.

Gavin: 42:19

Right. It was a moment though of like, oh, he's really listening and caring. And so that was something great. How about you?

David: 42:27

So we went on a trip to California. Uh, we flew six hours each way, and uh, you know, with a four-and-two-year-old, it's very difficult to be on a plane. Um, and so I just want to shout out our seat mates on our flight uh on the way home from California because it's you know, it's a six-hour flight. The four-year-old mostly can watch his iPad and he's okay. You watch Paw Patrol literally three times in a row. Um, the two-year-old, uh, she's she's a fucking monster, right? So we're always a little self-conscious. We don't have to be, but we feel a little self-conscious about her crying or her being crazy or crawling all over the place. And we had this, there was a family of four, and it was a three and three plane. So there was like the three on the one side, and then in our row on the aisle was this like maybe 11, 12-year-old boy who was part of the family. He was so fucking cool. He was like talking to her and laughing at her jokes, and like she when she would cry like before her nap or like on takeoff and landing, he was just like unfazed. He was so, and he was like engaging with her and like laughing with her. And I was like, at that age, that is the last thing he needs to do. And he was so kind to do that. And then in the row in front of us, which was my husband and our four-year-old, there was this older woman, and she was like so cool. She had kids, uh, she had grandkids that she was just visiting. And so she was like talking to our son, being like, look out there, look at that. And then when he would, you know, be a dick, whatever, totally unfazed by her. I tell you what, I'm my shout outs this week are to Carol and Seth. You guys were the fucking greatest seat mates we've ever had. And I just like that little bit of kindness that was shown, yeah, and that little bit of just like, don't worry about it. It was so I was so grateful for at the end of this long week and this long trip that um they are my something great this week.

Gavin: 44:09

That's awesome. And if I had been sitting next to you, uh listen, I wouldn't have begrudged you, but I would not have helped. I just would have been wine drunk and you know it. And that's our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.

David: 44:28

Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFm Vaughn everywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge on nothing. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we will wear a caftan with you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs!