Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast

The one with Rabia Chaudry

• David F.M. Vaughn & Gavin Lodge • Episode 56

Share episode

This week, we get in the mood with a little civil disobedience, David is nervous about a laptop open in public, we rank the top 3 ways we have failed to become "cool Dads," and this week we got lucky to snag one of the smartest and coolest people in the world to join us on our dumb little podcast, Rabia Chaudry, who talks to us about her sudden rise to fame, what it's like being a parent of 3 kids in 3 different decades, and what really is that running down her shirt?

Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast

Gavin:

Do you think we can is it okay to ask her about like gay serious stuff?

David:

Like gay and religious stuff? You need to start your own podcast now, and it needs to be called Gay and Serious Things with Gay Vin Lodge to get it out of your fucking body so you can come to our show, which is a comedy show and say funny things.

Gavin:

And this is Gatriarchs with not a funny guy.

David:

So I went to my first school referendum meeting, foot loose, yelling at each other, kind of thing the other day. And I know this is your wheelhouse, not mine, but I have uh some neighbors who were really passionate about this particular referendum. So I went to this thing. Anyway, the story is that they were doing a presentation on this new addition to the school they want to make, and they were using this guy's like personal laptop. And all I could think of the whole time was I would never project my laptop screen to a room and including a Zoom call full of hundreds of people. I kept thinking my heart was racing, going, God, please have all your notifications turned off. I hope you don't tile your background to where we see open windows hidden, and I just it made me so fucking nervous. Um that would be very it would have been very funny, but it was it was just it was a referendum on uh an addition to the school. Shhes, but it it is, I think, uh uh appropriate because you know, the people who showed up to yell and bitch and moan about how their taxes were going up$18 a month were only seniors 72 years old, only seniors and in the most powerful voting group in America because what they pay attention, they want to keep their money, and they vote. But they and in our state in New Jersey, there is a senior tax freeze where if you're at a certain age and make under a hundred and like eighty thousand dollars a year, your taxes, your property taxes can freeze every year to where none of these additions affect your taxes at all. But they're the only people who show up because A, they're they're they're they're bitchy and moony and they have nothing else to do, I guess. I'm I'm kind of I'm kind of big into it.

Gavin:

But also, but but also they care and they have the time.

David:

They care, but they're they are not thinking about the community, right? Because to them, investing in a school so 30 years down the road blank doesn't affect them. And it was just one of the things that's listen, y'all.

Gavin:

You you you reaped all the benefits 40 years ago, and now you got to pay it forward a little bit.

David:

Like this is your duty. This woman stood up and uh she was like, I used to go to the school in the 70s and I took a class like the one they were proposing, which they've since gotten rid of, and she was like, And it changed my life, and you know, this is my career now, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking, oh, she's like pro this. And she goes, like, so I don't think these kids need stuff like this. And I was like, Oh my God. I had to walk up to the guy afterwards and I said, I don't know how you get through these town council sort of meetings without wanting to just push everybody off a bridge because it was so gross, but he was really hot. Did he respond? No, he was just really hot.

Gavin:

I just want to go up to uh I was gonna say that was my next question. Sorry, you um definitely jumped on that. Like, was and was he hot?

David:

And he was hot, yeah. So, anyway, the point of my story is um old people are ruining school referendums and don't use your personal laptop for projecting things at a public meeting.

Gavin:

Yeah, so um, you know what, it it's been a while since we talked about gay news, which I think is a good thing. Like, we're not making news because nobody cares and there isn't um terrible stuff out there generally, except I do have to say, in a bit of uh yeah, I can see your face.

David:

You're like, and he's no, I was just thinking like like what there is no such thing as good gay news. Nobody says, hey, gay, by the way, gays are cool, and there's like an article about it. Like that it's never that. It's like gays ruined something.

Gavin:

Yeah, well, you know what, the straits ruined something too. Um, and uh a brief moment for Next Benedict, who is that that that situation and that um undoubtedly court proceeding is still going to be out there for a while. But I what I think is cool in the news is that dozens of uh students at their high school in Oklahoma walked out uh because they were protesting um the the administration's treatment of the entire situation. And it was just a an act of solidarity. So even though we kind of think, oh, geez, there's nothing good coming out of that poor high school and stuck in Oklahoma, let hey, let's face it. You know, there are allies and members of the Gatriarch family who are in Oklahoma too. So sending them all the good vibes, thank you for standing up for what's right, students.

David:

And it's so good to see kids that age feel like they uh want to try to change something. Because I think you're often told that age, you're too young, shut up, sit down, or whatever. And when people defy that, I love that. I tell you what, when they try to pull the vending machines out of my high school, I was like, Hell yeah, fuck you, motherfuckers. I want my chips, I want my son chips, and I want my diet coke.

Gavin:

You know what? Speaking of exactly that and your referendum, I don't know that many of our listeners know that I am actually an elected member of the Board of Education. Yes, you've definitely mocked me for that before. But um, we are actually having to deal with some of that food in schools, like any food that is sold to students has to comply with a law that is tied to a federal subsidy we get. And so, of course, you know that the vending machines are gonna be rated. And I'm just waiting for the absolute vitriol that's gonna come from people because they can't get their sonships. And by people, I don't mean the students, it'll definitely be parents who are enraged that their human rights are being taken on.

David:

All that's here is garden salsa. I want harvest cheddar. Yeah. Um, let's get into a dad hack of the week, shall we? Let's be let's be helpful to these people.

Gavin:

So, as I was looking into some dad hacks, actually, I stumbled across a YouTube influencer, a mere 687,000 followers. Good for you, buddy. I don't know what you're doing with your time, except making videos on dad hacks, and he's probably making millions of dollars doing it. But the guy is named Dude Dad, and he has a fantastic YouTube page of dad hacks, and not just like douchebaggy things that make you look like a dick, but rather really functional things. For instance, for those of us raising baseball players, he comes up with the idea of uh, and you have a toddler or a you know, a three or four-year-old, putting a tennis ball at the end of a fishing pole and having the kid hit it with a bat and then the ball gets sent. And you can just sit there and, you know, while you've got your martini in one hand, you can just roll the ball back up with the fishing ball.

David:

I was wondering where alcohol would play it.

Gavin:

And then another one, uh, when um, you know how when toddlers are driving in the car and they fall asleep and their heads are bobbing around and you think, oh my god, their necks must hurt so much.

David:

When toddlers are driving the car game?

Gavin:

Yes, when toddlers are driving your car and they've fallen asleep at the wheel and their heads are bobbing around, it looks really painful, right? And you always think, how do I hold their head up? Well, he came up with this really simple hack of putting a strip of Velcro on the back of the car seat and on top of a baseball hat and attaching the baseball hat to the Velcro so it holds their head up. And a baseball hat is like more comfortable than like, you know, tying their heads to the seat.

David:

Yeah, we'll have to run that by Jamie Grayson's. There's something about that that seems a little dangerous, but also a really great idea. So TBD ones.

Gavin:

So I'm not going to go through the entire thing, and I am actually sending traffic to you, Dude Dad, which by the way, we'd love to have you on our show to talk about dad hacks, but go check out Dude Dad on YouTube because he's funny and innovative as heck.

David:

I know this is an old joke, but it's so funny when you think about all the kind of new baby safety things, and then you there's like a trend going on on TikTok about this, where like you cut to like a photo of you and your childhood, just like free range in the backseat of a Cadillac, just sliding back and forth on every curve. Hell yeah. Oh man. I remember I would do I would my grandma had a minivan and she would smoke with the windows up. Nice, and uh we would go to the beach, and me and my cousins would be in the trunk with our feet up, yes, and we would pretend we were being kidnapped. And my we fucking loved it. We fucking loved it.

Gavin:

Um I my grandmother drove a uh like an Oldsmobile station wagon that comfortably sat 16 and it had one of those doors that moved uh open sideways, you know, like not a hatchback, but and it was just enormous. I mean, that was probably late 60s kind of uh car. It was, of course, olive green. And um, I loved laying in the back of that thing because you could roll around all over the place. I invariably, it was in the summertime when I would visit, so I would be like sweaty in the back, falling asleep in the back of her car, covered in who knows what is in the dirtiness of um my smoking grandmother's uh station wagon. And by smoking grandmother, I mean she was smoking.

David:

So not smoking, smoking.

Gavin:

Oh, um she was smoking while she was smoking, yeah, for sure.

David:

Okay. Um, well, let's move on to our top three list, shall we? Ooh, shall we?

Gavin:

Gatriarchs, top three list, three, two, one.

David:

So this week we are doing the top three ways you thought you would be a cool dad, but you are absolutely not.

Gavin:

Is this yet again my list that I forgot about, or is this your list? No, this is my list. Okay, thanks for that reminder.

David:

Um, so uh number three for me, I thought I would be cool with naps and bedtimes. I thought I would just be like, yeah, you know, when the kid falls asleep, he falls asleep. We'll we'll just bring him to bed. If you want to nap in the car, you can nap in the car. I am so fucking rigid with nap times. If it is 1-01, I'm like, we're late for naps. Like, I am so hardcore about that. So, number three, flexible with bed times. Um, number two, I thought it'd be cool. I thought my kids would love for me to sing and dance for them. Like in the mornings, I give full breakfast performances to whatever music is playing. And I thought in my head, my kids are gonna look up to me and be like, that guy was on Broadway. And uh, they look at me like I'm a piece of shit and I should stop dancing. Um, and number one, uh, I thought I'd be a young dad. I I I literally thought when I was having my kids, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be looked at as like a young dad. I was 39, Gavin. I'm an old dad. But in my mind, I was a new dad, so people looked at me like, what are these babies having babies for? Uh that's not true. I'm an old, I am, I am, I am now 44 and I am an old dad.

Gavin:

So um, the three, well, I definitely can relate to every single one of those, especially the free reign factor, thinking that I would I would just be cool with it. Just like let them free reign. But I think I took a slightly different tack to this, of course, because um you don't listen. Because what I mean is my perception of myself. I thought I was gonna be a cool dad. First of all, I thought, nope, I'm not gonna be like any of those guys. My dad bod is gonna be with abs. I mean, I've been holding this delusion for my entire life.

David:

You're gonna be a grandparent and still be working on this.

Gavin:

Someday I would actually have a six pack. And needless to say, I am not that cool a dad. Uh, number two, I thought that I would be basically like Amy Polar in Mean Girls. Not exactly serving margaritas to my children by any stretch, but I thought that my kids would want to hang with me. And no, I'm living Amy Polar in Mean Girls, where my 12-year-old daughter rolls her eyes so hard she almost has a seizure every time she sees me walk into a room. So clearly I am not the cool dad.

David:

That is very true in the way the way I think about you, you and as Amy Polar and Mean Girls, like that is a perfect comparison. Yeah, guys. Hey, I just made it. I'm not like regular parents.

Gavin:

I'm I'm a cool dad. Nope, I'm just totally fucking lame.

David:

Your daughters like die.

Gavin:

Yeah, 100%. And then number one, I thought I was gonna be rich. Once again, delusional. I just kind of thought, I'm not sure how it's gonna be, but I thought I would be rich with a six-pack that all of my all kids would want to hang out with me. And instead, I'm lame, poor, and deaf and fat. That's exactly right. Not as cool as I thought I was gonna be.

David:

So, what is next week's top three Less Gavins?

Gavin:

So, going on the theme of embarrassing your children, can you tell me the three times you were most embarrassed by your parents as a kid?

David:

So, our guest this week, I'm sorry, everyone is kind of a real nobody. Um, she's an attorney, she's an advocate, she's an author of the New York Times best-selling book, Adnan Story, and the executive producer of a four-part HBO documentary series, The Case Against Adnan Sayet. She is also a fellow podcaster, and her new memoir called Fatty Fatty Boom Boom, a memoir of food, fat, and family, was obviously stolen. As this is what I say to myself in the mirror every single day. But even though she's basically done nothing with her life, we wanted to have her on our show today because she is a mom and she is a mom to three kids over three different decades. Please welcome to the show, Rabia Chaudhry. Hi, Robbie.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, Gavin.

Gavin:

We hope that you're really prepared for this and you've come with uh an entire dossier of notes. Um, or I'm sure you're nervous. I'm sure you're nervous.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what I come with. Life experience.

David:

You come with the garlic for sure. But we would we for sure want our guests to be messy and covered in garlic. Like if you came here all like prepped and be like, oh, I just cut out cute shapes for my kids, you know, food, I'll be like, You're in the wrong.

Gavin:

Yeah. Get the fuck out of here. You're in the wrong podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Those people need to go to prison.

David:

Um, and I'd say that as a criminal justice reform advocate, those people And you're like, I won't represent you because I I think you should go directly to prison prison. You desert guilty.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

David:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There just exist to make us feel like crap, basically.

David:

I mean I mean, do you need to cut do you need to come out with like a new pod, like a new TikTok that basically you judging these parents and you just with a gavel being like directly to prison?

SPEAKER_00:

Guilty. Absolutely guilty.

Gavin:

Well, you you do have three kids ages, am I correct, 27?

unknown:

Seven.

SPEAKER_01:

She'll be 27 in May, but yeah, 26 right now.

Gavin:

And then um the other two uh and spanning down to seven years old. So I'm curious right away. I mean, talking about like judging those other parents that don't deserve to, you know, make those us feel bad about ourselves. I mean, was there a real um mom hack that you had 20 years ago that now you're like, yeah, sorry, you should have been born first. I'm not giving the that to you, the little one.

SPEAKER_01:

Gosh, a mom hack from 20 years ago. No, I think you learn your parenting hacks as you parent more. I mean, I yeah I I had my first daughter in my first marriage, and then I was a single mom for a bit after my divorce, and then I got remarried. Um, I am now going through another divorce, so yeah, here I am, single and mommy again. Uh-huh. Make it real. Keeping it real. Keeping it real. Um, and um, but you know, I I and I just think and I realize why, and I and I'm the eldest in my family, and I would be like, how come my kid brother gets away with everything? You're just tired and you prioritized. You're like, you know what? It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter if he spends another 40 minutes on the iPad. At the end of the day, it will not affect whether or not he turns out to be a good person.

David:

Right. But every parent goes through exactly that. I did that too. I was our our our first kid had no sugar, not a grain of sugar until he was one. Until he was one. And then on his first birthday, I made him a sugarless applesauce cake, to which he threw to the ground in a fit of rage. And then my daughter righteous rage. My my daughter came out of the womb and was just eating like cotton candy. I was like, I don't give, I don't give a fuck. And it's so true because I think every parent thinks they can do it better, and then they realize they can't, and then they just give up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you just give up and roll into a fetal position. Um, no, you you just learn that some things are not that serious. And I think I I think I'm actually a better parent for it. Um I don't feel like a worse parent. I feel like a I I at some point, I think when my my middle child, who's 15 now, was like three or four. Well, this was around the time that book came out. Um, was it Cheryl Sandberg who wrote lean in? And I was like, no, I'm going to lean out. That became my personal philosophy. I'm just gonna like paper plates, everybody. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Um, you know what I mean? Like, what is what can I do just to get by for now? And then, you know, momentarily lean in. But no, mostly just relax.

David:

Because you realize what matters and what matters is mom's sanity. Because mom's sanity can fuel you being safe and protected and and and things, but mom's sanity cannot be saved for washing dishes and making an elegant, you know, star fruit pattern on their you know, snacks. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

And also, like you think about like what do you remember from your childhood? Like, they're not gonna remember a lot of these. And then my par my kids are not gonna be like, my mom had us eat dinner on paper plates for a whole month one time. Um, they're gonna remember that I was there. Yeah, I was there at dinner time with them. Totally. That's what matters.

Gavin:

And also, if the paper plates make it in, it'll make a hell of a college essay. And you know, you'll go down in history as being terrible, but whatever. You're welcome, kids. You got into whatever school you wanted to go to. So it's all right.

David:

So, so you are I I I don't want to spend too much time on this because I'm sure you've done a billion interviews on serial and ednon and and that whole part of your life. But what I was most fascinated about, first of all, I was I was for sure one of the people who started listening to podcasts because of this case. That was the only reason I started. Yeah, I mean, it was it was amazing what it did for the world. But but what the question I wanted to ask you as a parent was when this this kind of sudden fame happened and this sudden explosion for you happened, did it at all affect how your kids related to you as like mom is now this person being talked about or or being in interviews? Like, how did your kids react to your kind of sudden fame?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, well, at the time, let's see, I didn't have the third one. Um, he was kind of born into all of it. Like just, you know, and I went by the time he came around, I was already doing all the public-facing stuff. But the truth is this, even for my daughters um who did see that, um, before Serial happened, I was already an activist and a community advocate, like really since 9-11. I mean, like, that's because you know, I'm an American Muslim, and a lot of stuff happened uh after 9-11 that, and I was in law school at the time. And our and so I had already spent a career doing a lot of public speaking, doing a lot of public writing. You know, I had a I had a column in Time magazine before Serial came out, you know. So I they were kind of used to mom being on this board and going here and doing, you know, like they were, they were kind of used to, of course, this is a different kind of level where mom goes out and she's recognized by people. I think that was weird for all of us. We all had to get used to this. Um, and my eldest, who I guess was a teenager at the time, um kind of her strategy, and I totally think it was right, was just to not tell people that, oh, that's my mom, and I know a non-uncle, and I've known him since I was a baby. Um, is just not to let people know. And then people would find out like after they've known her for a couple of years and be like, what? You know, so and then they come to my house and it just I'd be like any old aunt, you know, auntie to them. And so it wasn't a auntie.

David:

Yeah, auntie Mima.

SPEAKER_01:

Auntie Mima. Yeah, no, they I mean they handled it well. And you know, my I I've always had this thing where I'm like, sometimes I do have to obviously travel for work, but otherwise, I do my best that by five or six p.m. it's I'm just mom. You know, it's bedtime, bathtime, dinner time. I cook at home. I try to be as present like a homemaker, like a homemaker mom, a homesteader. A home strike. Yeah, exactly. That's my next evolution. I can't wait to get there.

David:

Oh my God. Please start making things in like glass mason jars and like homemade rice krispies, which is all the rage right now on TikTok. I'm like, what are you fucking doing?

Gavin:

Homemade rice krispies that's too.

David:

It is literally people being like, a bag of rice is only a dollar. Rice krispies are five dollars. Just pour it in oil and fry it and then drain it with paper towel is like you're already ten dollars in with the oil and paper towels. What are you doing, people?

SPEAKER_01:

And also time is money. I will once in a while make homemade rice, but I buy the rice krispie cereal. I mean, like, who's frying rice? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Gavin:

Hell no.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

Gavin:

Hell no. Um I have to run and get my power cord because my computer's about to die. I'm gonna get back in my second time. This is so unprofessional.

David:

Does he ever fucking kidding me?

SPEAKER_00:

It's fucking.

SPEAKER_01:

I do that all the time, David. I do all the time. He maybe he's needed podcasting. Have you ever considered that?

David:

Oh my god, he's just he's just the worst. Um, no, he's he's great. I make fun of him endlessly. It's the only way I get through these shows, is just constantly making fun of the buttons about it's one person who has to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

In our show, I am the brunt of some jokes, and Ellen is.

David:

Which is insane because Ellen is nobody. You are Ellen is you are you are a an American treasure. You are an American treasure, and Ellen is garbage. What are you doing over there? Don't let her talk to you that way.

SPEAKER_01:

She's actually the star. She is the star, the performer. I just turned into a I'm just a block of clay around her. I'm an idiot. I'm an idiot. I'm an idiot. We have a we have a live tour coming for our show, and I'm just so mortified because she gets I'm obviously a performer, and I'm not. And so, you know, it goes great for me.

David:

Yeah, because she gets to do all the dancing around. You just sit there and let her look like an idiot.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

David:

Which she loves.

unknown:

All right.

David:

Are we ready to get back in?

Gavin:

Oh, sorry, I thought you would just keep going. Thank you.

David:

Oh, I mean, we were just talking. I guess we could keep all this in. I mean, listen, our show is way less elegant than all 17 podcasts that you host right now, Rabia, including the one we were just talking about with our our mutual friend Ellen. How many podcasts is it actually?

SPEAKER_01:

Right now, uh, I currently have two podcasts. Um, and uh I have a third one coming out end of April. We have a fourth one that is in a very early investigative stage. It's it's a it's a it's probably I mean, people think this is like the biggest case I've done, but the case I'm working on now is gonna be the biggest case of my career, probably. It's it's a wrongful conviction, but it's a terrorism case. So it's a real and it's like an international case, so it's a big, big case. And so that'll be, you know, I'm just in the investigative stages and eventually it'll be turned into a series, but you know, where I think we were my agents already started pitching it. So, you know, I that's four. But before, I mean, I in the past I've also I've had the 45th during the four very difficult years of the Trump administration, which we are about to enter once again. I'm calling it, I hate to tell you guys.

Gavin:

Oh, you are? You are calling it? All right. Well, you're your glass is gonna be half empty, but we can't wait to say you were wrong, right?

David:

Well, the good news is that like I would love to that administration doesn't really affect any of us at all for any reason. No. So I think we're fine.

SPEAKER_01:

We're completely inoculated against policy.

David:

Yeah. Wait a minute.

Gavin:

So when you do all of these podcasts, though, are you do you consider yourself an investigator, or is this full-on attorney hat, or is it more podcasting? Yeah, is it journalism? What what are you?

SPEAKER_01:

It depends. I am a turn I mean, am I titled attorney, author, advocate. I haven't put podcaster on there yet, but frankly, I'm a podcaster. You know, I mean, the thing is like, so so the my show with Ellen, um, Robbie and Ellen solved the case, takes what I what I love about the show, it's it's fun, it's one hour. We talk about, we try to solve a case with a guest because we know that celebrities also love true crime. And we were like, this is a little outlet for you. But I try to take everything I've learned as an innocence attorney and investigator on wrongful convictions and and bring it, like bring that skill set and that knowledge into the show. So, I mean, it's and it's been great because our listen a lot of listeners of the show are not the kind of people who want to listen to a turn 20-part investigative series. But when I break things down and say the reason this is not evidence, but this is evidence, you know, I like I'm drawing on that experience, but it's in a short format. So I don't have to put in tons of work. Whereas I um, you know, after Adnan's case, me and my team at Undisclosed, you know, Undisclosed ran for seven years. It did tremendously well. And we helped bring 17 defendants home. Amazing. Um, yeah, and so, but in every one of those cases, we spend two, three, four, sometimes, you know, yeah, four years investigating before we can get on air.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So those kinds of cases I can only do one or two at a time. So I'm I always have one or two, and that's like the the one I mentioned. Um, and then the one I have called Nighty Night is purely narrative because people like to listen to my voice. They like to fall asleep to it.

Gavin:

You it's true. You do have a great radio voice.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I lower my register, you know, and then the other one that's coming out in April is gonna be another narrative voice. And those are just fun, creative projects for me, and I'm I'm just a narrator.

David:

But so I this is the last question I'm gonna ask about serial and that I will move on, but I'm I I'm it's I'm fascinated by it. Were you at all worried when kind of it exploded in the public consciousness, this case, that the the mere popularity of it and the visibility of it would affect it on the legal side. So were you worried that like the actual bad yeah, well, it's just that that it would it would move the needle in one way that maybe it wouldn't have prior, good or bad.

SPEAKER_01:

The truth is because it was like the first of its kind. This had never happened before in any kind of really criminal case, I think, where you were and even you know, what Serial did was provide an opportunity for those who were his advocates, because it didn't advocate for his innocence to then take it from there, basically. Um, and what I worried about as I l and I mean, people think I had something to do with like producing it. I didn't. I I was interviewed for it. I provided as many contacts and resources that their team needed, but I'd have to listen every week to figure out what they're gonna say next. I had no idea what was coming. And every week it was awful. I would be like, shit, is she gonna think, say he's and I don't know what she found in her investigation. What I was hoping was she would find something that would help exonerate him fully, like a witness recanting or something like that. That didn't really happen. Um, I just didn't my biggest concern was like public opinion because I thought if we can take public opinion on our side, it'll give us the momentum, it'll help like fund his, you know, like we got a lot of donations and stuff, it'll help fund continue to fund his defense. I was concerned about that. I didn't really think it would make a difference in what happened in a courtroom because nothing was there, there was nothing happening in a courtroom at that time. There were no appeals, um, you know, and well there was, but I mean it was I didn't think it would be impacted by this. And I want to think that it still wasn't because ideally, no judge or jury should be swayed by but it is hard not to be, I know.

David:

Yeah, especially with, like you said, something so unprecedented as far as it's like sudden fame. Like this is at all not equivocal, but like when lost became such a huge phenomenon, and it st it actually spurred some podcasts and some things into like that. That was a world where like we'll never go through that kind of like what's gonna happen next week, kind of in kind of TV and media. But the same thing with this case, like it was so it was it was one of those rare things that happened where like everybody was talking about it, or there's just too much stuff now.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it's on Saturday Live, it was it's just it was a it was a cultural phenomenon, and in real time, podcasts are popping up to talk about cereal. Yep. Um, you know, Slate did a whole podcast to talk about cereal and others, you know, did the same thing, and it was a lot coming at me and the family because we're like, holy crap, you know. Um, and it felt a little bit out of control, but I found my I was like, the only way I have control is but I was blog I had a blog back in the day, the blogs. Oh every week your blog years old.

David:

Your blog years old.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm blog years old, yeah. Um, and so I would just write these long blogs after every episode um to be like, oh, this is what I have to say about this. This is like my response to this, and this is what's missing from this episode. And that's where I was like, I found my kind of control, and I just needed some semblance of control.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah.

Gavin:

And that was sanctioned by Koenig, or did it even matter?

SPEAKER_01:

Hell no, she was really upset about that. She did not, yes, because I'd be like, uh, wait a minute. Oh, I didn't I didn't call them out completely, but I'd be like, well, there's more to this story, you know. Like she I mean, I'll give you a small example where she talked about uh the detectives in the case and said, she literally said they're basically good guys trying to do their jobs. At the time serial came out, there were two lawsuits, civil lawsuits against the same detectives for framing two other innocent men. And I said, Sarah.

David:

Wait a minute. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so I linked to the lawsuits, I talked about the other shit they had done. And I'm like, no, let's really talk about these detectives. And so, no, they did not like that. But oh well. I mean, I have my own agenda. I was, yeah, I would this was not for entertainment for us. No, we had a purpose.

David:

This is that's what's so weird about it is that like the casual observer looks at this as a purely entertainment story. They're like, oh, what's gonna happen? What happened? This is what I think, this is what I think. But you forget the thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

David:

Oh, yeah. So gripping. This this is not the same, but it was like it reminds me a little bit of like the staircase and that that I know you guys have have done this before. And then I remember watching it and then texting with my friend about it, and he was like, Well, have you heard of the owl theory? I was like, what are you talking about? And then when I read the owl theory, I literally exploded into like deep dive YouTube. I was like, oh my god, this changes everything.

SPEAKER_01:

And it wasn't I am team owl.

David:

I am to me, if you know, if you're out there not uh listening and you're like, what are they talking about? Literally just Google the owl theory, it will pop right up. But there is no when you look at that optatsari report, and there's there's no other re there's no other explanation.

SPEAKER_01:

Explanation for the marks on the head. Yeah, I am a hard.

David:

I'm sorry, you have owl feathers in your scalp.

SPEAKER_01:

Who randomly has those?

David:

Like, like who I mean Gavin might, but that's a different story. Um covering up bald spots. So okay, so that that that is kind of what brought you kind of to to our world and podcasting and to fame. So um, I'm curious. You are a Muslim, you said you're Muslim, you are raising your kids in America. Yeah pretty easy, right? That's cool. It's no problem, no problems there.

SPEAKER_01:

It's been, you know, it's been challenging, I gotta say, after 9-11. Um and I think social media has made it both worse and better in some ways. I will say, look, when I was growing up in America, um, a lot of people just didn't know what a Muslim was, which was kind of worked in our favor. They're like, oh, what is that? Is that from a particular place or what is that? A brand of, you know, catch up? What is it? No idea what it is. Um, and and so it kind of, and I grew up in small town America, um, because my dad worked for the US Department of Agriculture. So we were on these little towns. And people just didn't know and they didn't bother. They're, you know, they're nice to us and we were nice to them. That was the end of it. And then after 9-11, you know, obviously things got very, very hairy. We spent a long time just trying to defend ourselves. But now, um my my eldest daughter, who's 26, she grew up in kind of the cloud of post-9-11 America where there's a lot of suspicion and fear around Muslims. There's a lot of misinformation, just a lot of some deliberate, some not. And I made the decision at that time that because I did not want her dealing being bullied at school, I'm gonna put her in a private Islamic school, a Muslim school, and I did. Um, whereas now my 15-year-old, it's a different time. And already, yeah. Yeah, we have moved beyond that. And I I tend to think of Trump as the that the alien invader that like brought so many of us together and realized, oh, who the enemy, you know what I mean? Like who to add who we need to actually fear.

David:

Yeah. And um Midwestern white women with guns.

SPEAKER_01:

Right?

David:

Like, that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's those pretzel strawberry salads that we have to.

David:

Um I made a Snickers green apple salad with Cool Whip and a block of cream cheese. It is amazing. Everyone will love you at parties. No, they won't.

SPEAKER_01:

I wouldn't even eat it for dessert. Actually, I gotta try it. I have friends who make it. I keep hearing about it, but I've never had it. Um yeah, so you know, so and then for my 15-year-old now, she's living in an era where like you turn on MSNBC, you've got Ali Velshi and Mehdi Hassan and all the, you know, you know, you have American Muslim comics and actors, uh, you know, um, what's it called? Uh, what's his name? Um, oh my god, I Hassan Minaj. Hussein Minaj like did the White House correspondence dinner. I mean, yeah. We did not grow up seeing this kind of representation.

David:

Yeah. By the way, he is so hot. Like, I feel uncomfortable even walking up. Like, he is so when he was on, he was a daily show first, right? Or that was yeah. When he was on Daily Show, I was literally like, I I I might divorce my husband for this guy. And not even not that he likes me, just for the chance that maybe someday he is so hot. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I I listen, David, I just want to tell you if if you guys think I mean, and I've heard other people say that. I mean, I I have some really good friends. Like, Matthew Hudson's a good friend. He's an incredible journalist, and I have friends who are like, oh, he's so hot. I'm like, you need to just go to Box Center India because they're these guys are fine looking, but there are some real fine looking brothers back.

David:

Okay, let's go. Let's maybe we should do a Gay Charks trip. And we can just go and just hoe out.

SPEAKER_01:

No. Um Yeah, so so I think, you know, my daughters are my my kids now are just they're they they don't feel like like things things were uh are much different than 20 years ago. We have a lot of other challenges, obviously. Um, and there are the attacks have shifted now to like LGBTQI communities, to trans people, to other kinds of things, to reproductive rights. So it's almost like and to, you know, angry white young men with guns, which is kind of a relief, but also terrifying. Um so yeah.

David:

How do you not hold on? I like I maybe it's just because you're way more mature than I am, but how do you not hold on to the just the unfairness of even the first couple years after 9-11 and not just bring that with you everywhere you go? I just I I don't know if I I still feel like I carry some of that with like being gay in the South and how unfair it was. And sometimes I still feel like I I carry that with me. I I cannot imagine what it felt like for you those first couple years after 9-11.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it wasn't even for it, honestly, it was probably the first seven or eight years because what's crazy is that anti-Muslim sentiment grew for the first decade. That's how we got to Trump and the Muslim ban. Like it was growing actually every single year. Uh 10 years out from 9-11, um, Republicans were polled and they said American Muslims should not be allowed to hold office. And so this is 10 years out from 9-11. The reason um I will say this, and you know, my parents immigrated to this country because my dad really felt like this was the best country in the world, despite all of the challenges, because it is constantly evolving, because there's always space to change things, to move the needle forward, to, you know, so you don't feel like you're completely helpless. You don't feel like I don't have freedom of expression, I don't have the freedom to protest. I we can go to court, we can go to media, we can do things. It doesn't always work, but we can without, without like, let's say, being disappeared by the local law enforcement. I mean, like, yeah, so just you know, if you so as somebody who, you know, I'm from Pakistan, I know a lot about like the Middle East, I know about, you know, in North Africa, other countries, there are very, very flawed systems here, but at least there are systems, right? And so if I after 9-11 I sat around feeling like I have no power at all, then maybe I don't know if I could have stayed here. But because I felt like, no, I have the power to do things. I went out, I was speaking, I was, I was talking to local communities, schools, churches, synagogues. I did as much as I could because I had the freedom to do that. And that's what kind of I mean, you know, the American dream is different for different people, but for folks who can who come from regions where they can't do stuff like that, or it's very limited, or it can be really risky.

David:

Um, this do you think your dad knew that that freedom involved green apple Snicker salad? Do you think he knew that that was the freedom you guys were running for?

SPEAKER_01:

My poor dad um passed away in December of 2022, and he passed away never having tasted that.

David:

That's that's a that's that's gotta hurt. That's gotta be the that's gotta be the part that hurts the most.

Gavin:

This is some heavy shit that you definitely carry constantly because you are certainly a crusader for like justice and the doing the right thing. So what is your escape? And please don't tell me it's just true crime and reading and researching the murder of children and injustice all over the place. Is that your escape to feel lighter?

David:

She likes to torture animals, Gaben. That's her that's her escape.

SPEAKER_01:

I have uh a couple of escapes. I do like true crime. I cannot, I cannot lie. I like true crime. I am turning into that old person who like I'm starting to read more history and biographies. And I used to be like 20 years ago, I'd be like, who reads that shit? Okay, I read that. Um I this is also gonna sound like people are gonna be like, oh, screw her. But going to the gym, I mean, I became, you know, and I've lost a hundred pounds in the last seven years. And so, you know, but it's been a life that hence fatty, fatty boom, boom, a lifelong struggle. But um, in the the last five, six years, uh, in my personal life, I've gone through just a ton, a ton of real challenges and a lot of trauma. And going to the gym every day, I was like, just one hour for me, and I don't want to think about anything else, which has been my escape. Yeah. But I also like to garden.

unknown:

I love gardening.

David:

Wow, Mima. You really are a Mee Maw. My lanta. Oh my God.

Gavin:

But truly, joking aside, joking aside, that those are things that do keep you sane. And especially as parents, God, if we could all have an hour to ourselves and make the choice to make it prior priority. Sometimes you can't, sometimes you just can't. But when you find that place in your life, thank goodness for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Sometimes you think you can't. And what I realized was, you know, when I when I started saying I'm gonna take an hour every evening and go to the gym, my eldest, oh my youngest, who's just turned seven, he was like what, one and a half, right, at the time. And I'm like, it's an hour. What will happen in an hour? They won't get their dinner like for another hour. I don't care. The food's there, they can eat on their own. Like, I'm like, nothing will actually unravel in that hour, is what I realized. But you know, you feel like I can't, I can't, because I have this responsibility. Yeah. No, it's all in your head. You can do it, and they will be just fine. And then you're modeling for them. Yeah, this is important. So, um, what do I listen to?

Gavin:

Um I was gonna say, do you listen to like, is it uh is it just pop bubblegum pop music, or is it true crime podcasts that you listen to?

SPEAKER_01:

Depends on my mood. I listen, I actually love the true crime comedy genre. So I do listen to Ellen Marsh, my co-host other show I think not, and I listen to other some true crime podcasts because you know they're like one hour, it's easy to digest, you know. There are a couple of sometimes if there's a really good series and I'm hooked like an investigative, I listen to that. But I listen to a lot of South Asian music, like just from my roots and stuff, and um Bollywood. I grew up with Bollywood, so I'll listen to Bollywood music. It's very boppy, and you know, I can't when when there's some trainers at the gym I work with and they're quite young, and they'll put on like this real hard-hitting hip-hop, and I'm like, I can't. I'm too old for this. I don't understand this. This is making me angry, it's not making me want to like move and be happy.

David:

So that's the trick, though, right? Is like getting getting the music that fuels you forward and not just like yeah, distracts you. But like you're saying, yeah. And nothing will like you're saying, nothing will unravel with your kids gone. The all it's only upside because you're gonna restore, you're gonna kind of recharge your yourself and then you're gonna come back and be able to actually parent those kids. So let's round it out here with my favorite thing to ask, which is what is your favorite and least favorite part about parenting?

SPEAKER_01:

My favorite part about parenting is this is gonna sound Weird and creepy, maybe, but yeah, I love I just love just looking at my children. I will just stare at them. I'll just stare at them and be like, How are you so beautiful? I mean, you know, children just by virtue of youth are beautiful, so you gotta hate them for that. But there's just I just delight in looking at them. And it's my and also obviously hugs. The hugs are good. Um and my seven-year-old is just starting to grow out of the we're getting at that point where he's probably not gonna want the hugs as much, so I'm just holding on for dear life. Um yeah, I don't know. I love my kids. I love my kids. I'm I I love kids in general, but I I just I feel delighted when I look at my kids. I just and when they're all all three of them are together, I'm like, look, how did I make them? I made them. Um, my least favorite part about parenting is well, for me, it's three generations. That's amazing. Every yeah, and everyone has its unique need. That's what's really I mean, I my head is constantly spinning. It's not like all three are in a certain age range and they all kind of have similar needs. My eldest is getting married, my 15-year-old is doing what 15-year-olds do, you know, college is looming and she needs 8,000 extracurricular activities, and I'm chauffeur, not old enough to drive herself, so it's like I and then my 60-year-old's like, I don't need to read. Who needs to read? I don't like to read, I don't need to learn to read ever. So it's like I have every generation of challenge, and I think that's what I'm like really not liking about parenting right now, is like, um, and I'm old. I am old for for for a kid in first grade, right? Like on the 15th June, and I'm like, I will be like 55 and he'll still be in elementary school.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, it's it's a you know, I'm like, I never get to relax. I've I've been having like had my first at 2023. It's like my whole adult life is a so well.

Gavin:

Gardening will be just around the corner, and then you'll miss those days of being the old lady at the PTA meetings. And then you'll be in the garden.

SPEAKER_00:

You'll be underneath the I'll be I will be buried under the daisy.

SPEAKER_01:

I listen, I have plans for my uh, you know, I'm I'm gonna do I'm trying to in a few years, I'm gonna get that little homestead with some little goats, and my children eventually leave me, and it'll just the goats will eat me and it will all be one.

Gavin:

I I do want to bring it back one just in case, and um David can take this out of context if need be. But do you have any of those shitstorm stories from back in the day when you were, you know, hustling with your two-year-old and also being an activist and also being an attorney pre-podcasting days where you're just like covered in literal baby shit and thinking, is this my life? Is this my life?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, there was one time, and I don't know how this happened, and I feel like every parent has that diaper story, that shit actual shit story. I I I and this was my second, my second child, she was like seven or seven months old, six, seven months old. And I had just cleaned her, put on a onesie, you know, washed her up. I was holding her like this, and I I was talking, I was like walking out of the bedroom, and my my eldest, who was like 12 at the time, was walking towards me and she's like, Mama, I'm like, what? She's like, Mama, what's on your shirt? And I'm like, what's on my shirt? And just from here down, I was covered in diarrhea. However, it I don't know how it got out of the diaper and out of the onesie because infant shit does not follow the rules of physics.

David:

It doesn't follow.

SPEAKER_01:

I was like, because it actually the onesie was almost completely clean.

Gavin:

And I'm like, where did you shit to the side? Is there a hose involved here?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I mean, and then one time I remember the same child, she was like two, and we went to this this national park, and this was like the government had shut down, so they closed all the flippin' bathrooms at the national park, which makes no sense to me. But anyhow, um, so I'm like, well, she's gotta pee. Um, and so I we like pulled over, we're I walked like you know, five feet into the woods, like you know, take off her whatever pants or whatever, and she's standing and I'm like, okay, pee. And she won't squat. I'm like, if you're gonna pee standing up, it's gonna be a huge mess, but I'm not fighting you, just pee.

Gavin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But she didn't.

Gavin:

You were leaning out in that moment. You do you.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, I have wipes, we'll figure it out. But then she also did number two standing up.

Gavin:

And oh god.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Gavin:

And unfortunately, not explosive, so all it did was run down her legs.

SPEAKER_01:

It's yeah. I mean, so and then she goes, I swear to God, she's like, I didn't do that. A bear did it. I'm like, you did it. Right.

David:

First of all, you just shit all over yourself. Second of all, you're a fucking liar. And oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

You fucking three-year-old liar.

David:

I mean, I have for sure, I have for sure picked up my kid, and they have diarrhea all the way up their back into their hair on the back of their neck. Yeah, but they're gonna have a clean diaper. Clean diaper.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, what the fuck is happening? Yes, that has also happened. Same kid. It's always the same, it's always been the same kid.

Gavin:

Wow. You have one shitty kid and two non-shitty kids, apparently.

SPEAKER_01:

Not as shitty. Not as shitty. No, my eldest would vomit. She would, if she coughs, she vomited. If she laughed, she vomited. If she sneezed, she vomited. If she ran too fast, she vomited. Oh my god. Everything made her vomit. And I wanted to just, you know how oh my god, I cleaned up so much vomit with the floor.

David:

And if you're and if your third like peas everywhere, then you have like the holy trinity of vomit, shit, and piss with your three children.

SPEAKER_01:

So far, so good. We haven't hit that yet, but I have one more nerdy question.

Gavin:

You can take this out to David if you want. But um, or this is the bonus, which is I happen to notice as I was going down your not extensive Wikipedia page that you attended law school at Antonin Scalia Law School.

SPEAKER_01:

Listen, it was not called that when I learned there.

Gavin:

I wanted to say that bad. I would imagine you have divergently different views of the law.

David:

Oh, um diametrically opposed foes.

SPEAKER_01:

When we when I learned, I and other alum learned that it was going to be renamed, it was called, it was a George Mason School of Law. It's a state law school. Um, and uh it was a good school. It was a conservative school even then. I mean, I was like maybe one of three people of color in the whole school. But for lots of reasons it worked for me at the time. And when when I learned that there, because of a funder, you know, I guess the family or something, I don't know who made this big fat donation and they renamed it, you know. We I I just refuse. I refuse to call it that. And uh, but you know, it yeah, no, we have complete quite divergent beliefs in the law, yeah.

Gavin:

The person editing and not updating your Wikipedia page definitely needs to be schooled on that.

SPEAKER_01:

Damn it, Ellen.

David:

Wow. Right back to her. I love that we've talked about her more than anything in this entire thing.

SPEAKER_01:

More than my children.

David:

I'm so embarrassed. Well, thank you so much for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid.

SPEAKER_01:

No, thank you for having me. Ellen has talked so many times of how much how much she loves you guys and this show, and there was no way I was gonna say no. I had so much fun. Thank you guys.

David:

Thank you. So, my something great this week was we were going out and we had a babysitter here, and sometimes the kind of us leaving the house is involved with tears and crying and please don't go and all that kind of stuff. I'm familiar. And so the other day uh we were leaving, and I was saying bye everyone, bye Emmett, bye Hannah. And then I was walking out the corner and I heard, wait, wait, from my son. And I was like, fuck, here we go. And my kid ran, and this is crazy, but he ran up to me and he goes, Wait, I want to give you a kiss. And he like, I bent down, he kissed me on the lips, and then he ran back to the other room. I was like, What the fuck? That was adorable. That was so sweet, and like that's what's in the parenting brochures. You know, that never happens. So that was my Sunday Greek this week. What about you?

Gavin:

So we have a puzzle um game that's in our car, and uh, it's been sitting in the door. It's one of those like you slide the little tiles around. It's meant to just like keep you busy in the car, right? Mainly kids, obviously. But hey, I've definitely you slide the tiles around and it makes a picture of um some cartoon character that I can't even um name. It's from a McDonald's um uh Happy Meal from who knows, years, weeks, months ago, it all blurs. And recently, my son um rediscovered it. And so he has been wanting to hurry up to the bus so that we can slide this little puzzle together. And he is actually wanting to spend time with me before he becomes a middle schooler and hates me. And so that's something great is like quality car time where we're uh, you know, sitting side by side playing a puzzle together. And it's um really fun. Thank you, McDonald's. Happy meal.

David:

Yeah, for you know, the clogged arteries, but the memories really carry with us. And that is our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments for David, you can email us at Gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.

Gavin:

Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFM VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge in a happy meal. Please leave us a glowing five-star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. And we'll leave you speechless next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.

SPEAKER_01:

Wait, is it Gaben or Gavin? I'm sorry. It is Gavin.

Gavin:

It's family blessing and curse. Yeah. Gabin. Gabin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, they really were. Because he's gay.

Gavin:

I mean, they really did, yeah.

David:

Yeah.

Gavin:

Let me tell you, that second grade, I still have PTSD, certainly from uh C.

David:

You know, his middle name is Versatile Bottom, too. It's really weird how like they just they just got him right where they needed to go.

Gavin:

And my last name is Lodge, so just like come filmable.

SPEAKER_01:

He was the minute he was born, they're like, let you know, we can read him.

Head Shot

David F.M. Vaughn

Host
Head Shot

Gavin Lodge

Host