Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
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Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
The one with surrogate Shelly Marsh
We're back! And Gavin still can't get through an episode without messing up. We talk about why David looks tired, and what weird messed up thing his kid whispered in his ear, we tackle the top three most embarrassing moments of our childhood, and this week we are joined by Shelly Marsh aka surrogacy royalty, who talks us through her 4, count them FOUR surrogacy journeys, why they all weren't great, and what inspired her to create two companies to help and support and protect future surrogates and IP's.
Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast
This is my week and the topic was is I hate myself.
David:But enough to change? Do you hate yourself enough to change is the question.
Gavin:What is my problem? What is my problem? Undiagnosed. And this is catriorx.
David:Good morning. Hi.
Gavin:You sound happy, actually.
David:Uh, don't appreciate the actually. I do feel happy. I don't know why. I don't know why I feel happy. It's a good day. But it's sad that you said it in a way where you're like, you don't normally sound happy. And you sound happy, and I am surprised.
Gavin:I know. Well, ain't that parenting, though? Like, you know, we're we're I appreciate that most of the time you and I, at least off-air, don't uh have a filter and we can kind of be like, man, I mean, and usually it comes down to parenting, right? We're exhausted, life is tough, but you sound particularly happy today, I think. Oh, okay.
David:Well, you don't look tired. Well, yeah, and I was about to say, like, do not say that to anybody. Why do people say that to you? Like people like, like, no, literally, like the woman at McDonald's will just be like, oh, you look tired. I was like, what the fuck? I will give me my fucking Big Mac. What do you think about?
Gavin:Somebody did not read Chicken Soup for the Soul um in uh 1996, where you're never supposed to tell people they look tired or sick, ever, ever, ever. Just don't say it, right? Don't ever say it.
David:So so for the young listeners, Chicken Soup for the Soul was a whole book series that were very popular in the late 90s for like Midwestern white people. And um, it was kind of a it had a it had a moment. It had a moment.
Gavin:It had a it definitely had a like a bestseller moment for sure. But there are those life lessons. I mean, I suppose I cannot wait for the gay triarchs. Oh, here's a business idea. Just get on that, just make it happen. A business idea for like, here's the advice. Here's the advice for just like being a gay triarch. And one of them is don't ever ask anybody if you're tired or um uh sick, which reminds me that I was um, I don't know if we'll get into this later or not, but I um had to make an ER run, which I suppose I can't say that without actually explaining it, right? Whoa, yeah. Long story short, actually, it wasn't very dramatic, but my son, the soccer player, broke his foot this weekend. Yeah. Oh my god. A teensy fracture. He's gonna be rubber, he'll bounce back, undoubtedly. The doctor, and the thing is, we were doing a campout, which is another thing to like unpack there. But it happened on Friday night, and I was like, dude, we need to go home. And he said, No, no, no, I don't want to go, I don't want to go, I don't want to go. And it's looked like he rolled his ankle a little bit and he was kind of hobbling around, but he wasn't, you know, he he wasn't complaining and he didn't want to leave. So I was like, uh, I guess we'll stay. I mean, shh, it's is CPS gonna be called in Sivor, Connecticut? I don't think so. And um, then long story short. Is that why you live there to avoid CPS? So when we did finally make it to the ER, uh the doctor did say, before taking an x-ray, he said, you know, listen, uh he's having fun. If you roll an ankle in the middle of the jungle, you're not just gonna lay down and die. You keep going. He's like, you didn't do anything wrong. I mean, maybe you broke, you caused the healing process to be another couple days longer. But listen, like, live your life in the forest running around. It's a good reason to twist your ankle. He goes and does the x-ray, comes back, and he's like, Well, looks like you broke something. But I stand by what I said, you didn't do anything wrong. And he's in a boot, not a cast, for probably three weeks, which sucks, but honestly, it could be worse. Anyway, uh we're sitting with the nurse as we're, you know, being um uh what not discharged, but uh registered. And she's like, So what happened? And I'm like, please don't, please don't call child protective services on me. She asked my son, and he says, Well, I was running through the forest and I um I was doing a camp out, and I jumped over a log and I twisted my ankle. And the woman says, Oh, you were doing a camp out, huh? And she turns to me and goes, So that's why daddy looks so tired.
David:I was like, fucking you are you kidding me? Like, what like what benefit do they think they are giving us? Like, maybe I could understand, like, are you tired? Ergo, can I help you get sleep? But you look tired. What is even worse? What is the ending of that?
Gavin:Other than I feel like she It was even worse. So that's why Daddy looks so tired. And I did. I'd be to be fair, I did look really tired. I slept on the ground two nights in a row.
David:Come on, but like I would never say that to another person. I cannot believe people say, but you know what um people do say to me, like my son. Um, so at night, when I'm putting him to bed, we did this whole game, this bedtime math we talked about with Derek Cahill a long time ago, where I have to put him in bed, I tuck him in, we do all these things, and then he has to ask a question. He always asks a question. It's always something stupid. It's always something like, What are planes? I'm like, you know what a fucking plane is, but it's just what we do. So the other night, I lean in, I say, love you, honey. He goes, Wait, wait, I have a question. I said, What's your question? He goes, How do you kill a dog? And and I started locking my bedroom door at night and turning on the camera. I was like, what? And and so not only am I dealing with the trauma of like, oh, I'm raising a sociopath who may murder people, but also I'm like, how do I respond so he doesn't pick up on, oh my God, I'm shocked. So I was like, oh, well, you know, we don't really want to do that or whatever. And of course I run downstairs. I was like to my husband, I'm like, listen to what this fucking psychopath just said. Oh my God. So that's a little haunting to hear in the middle of the night.
Gavin:That's amazing, though. I do wish you had just gone with it though. Uh, you definitely did not yes and your son in that moment. I mean, you should have done a well, it depends. If you're near a body of water, wow, it depends. Wow, cool. If your house is already on fire, well, it depends. Wow.
David:If you if you have a bunch of chocolate you want to give them. It just depends. Um, that's pretty fucked up. Anyway.
Gavin:I wanted to kill our dog uh earlier last week when um she always sleeps on my daughter's uh bed. And I don't know, a few nights ago, she um not only was sick once, but she was sick twice. She but she meaning the dog, who then apparently stood up, didn't jump off the bed, barfed over the side of the bed, having it run down not only the uh the bed, the the uh duvet cover, the floor, and of course the pile of clothes that my daughter had not picked up. Apparently, then she she, the dog, turned around, went back to sleep, woke up, did it again on another side. So, like nine a 90-degree corner of my uh daughter's bed was just covered in dog puke. And we didn't even listen to it.
David:I I wanna I want to just like tell anybody who's just starting to listen to the show now. We don't normally start every show off with a bunch of CPS and killing dog stories, but here we are. Why don't we move into something a little lighter? What's in the news, Gavin?
Gavin:Oh, in the news. So something a little lighter is now uh we're definitely gonna date ourselves here because I'm talking about congressional stuff because you know I love talking congressional shit. And um, there's a big omnibus, or actually, I guess they're calling about a minibus um uh spending package that is yet another one of those. They have to vote it through by midnight or the government shuts down, kind of thing. And you know, honestly, an awful lot of the very positive things that Democrats are trying to go for um are being passed. But uh Mike Johnson, in his never-ending attempt to suck the dicks of the super, super conservative minority, um, has wedged into that uh bill a compromise that says, but uh you're we're gonna give the Democrats everything they're asking for, basically, to keep the government going, but we're gonna not allow pride flags to be flown over embassies overseas. I mean, part of me wants to be like, okay, whatever. What the fuck ever. And also then part of me wants to be like, fuck you in this bullshit, you know?
David:I will burn this fucking country to the ground, you piece of shit. What a piece of fucking shit.
Gavin:It's it's and who knows, by the time this airs, maybe that'll be um extricated. Maybe it'll be the we're but we're shining the light on this bullshit for sure. So I'm sure we'll be part of getting it out of there.
David:Well, let's be a little more helpful to our listener, shall we? Let's do a dad hack of the week, shall we? I realized this when I was in Target and we were buying a gift for another kid's birthday, which is always a terrible thing because all they do is see toys that they want to have. Yeah. And so what I learned is you say put it on their birthday list. Because somehow they think they're getting it, but they don't need it right now. And they're not gonna fucking get it. I'm not getting you the Paw Patrol Aquaps Chase underwater vehicle.
Gavin:You will have grown out of it by the time your birthday comes around. Yes.
David:You will have grown out of it, and also like if I got you all the things on your list. But anyway, for some because when I usually say, like, oh, sorry, you can't have that, or we don't need to get anything, tears, kicking, screaming, whatever. But when I say, Oh yeah, put it on the birthday list, they just put it back and they're so happy. So lie to your children, is what I'm saying is the dad hack of the week.
Gavin:So I have something to bring back to the table.
David:Okay.
Gavin:What would you do? Oh God. Jesus.
David:Gavin was in like nine Broadway shows, people, and that's what he sounds like.
Gavin:So this was actually brought to me by one of our main uh our our longtime listener, and he wanted to pose it to the Gatriarch speak. Okay. Hosting a sleepover with multiple participants, right? You know, parents are not gonna be sleeping. You just suck it up because you know that the the instantaneous pleasure from your children is uh supersedes any of the hell that's gonna be the next day with um lost sleep and crabby parents and crabby children, right? But there's one kid who screws up the entire sleepover for everybody, for everybody else, for the parents and for the kids. Furthermore, when the parents actually said, Hey, kid, I need you to tone it down. Stop jumping on my couch, stop throwing the pillows, stop terrorizing my dog, stop terrorizing the other kids, and also please don't eat, uh please don't take the food from the table like I asked you not to. Please don't walk around our house with you know a handful of popcorn. And the kid is like, you're not my dad, and just keeps doing whatever the fuck they want and really ruins the whole night. Do you say something to the parents or not? Now, of course we want our knee-jerk reaction is of course you need to say something, but like they're reactionary parents who don't take criticism well. Is it and this isn't your kid's best friend? The likelihood they'll never come back. Anyway, I'll stop making disclaimers.
SPEAKER_00:What would you do?
David:Oh god, art just died a little bit. Um, this is my point of view is from again, somebody who doesn't have sleepover age children. And yeah, and so, but I I my immediate thought was you have to tell the parents. And here's why because we can't stop ourselves from doing things like that, like saying, Hey, your kid's an asshole in fear of the kid's parents not taking it well. That's on them. If they want to not take it well, that that shouldn't inhibit us from saying something because that kid is not coming back to my house. And you probably want to know why. And I want it, and if my kid's being an asshole and somebody told me that, I would rather them tell me that and then me be mad at them for telling me that, but still I know it. But for me, I am hard line. Like if you are that disrespectful and the kids don't even like you and you jumped on my couch or whatever and farted in my pillows, I would for sure be like, hey, we had such a fun last night. Just so you know, your son is terrible and I don't want him at my house, knowing full well they'll react terribly and they may not, they may spin it a different way. But I think you have to because otherwise, you're just placating to the lowest common denominator. And as we know, when they go low, we go lower.
Gavin:Lower. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think that's a I think that's good advice. It is really tough, though. It is really, really tough. Um, because, you know, big people, big feelings, big reactions, big emotions. And um, I wouldn't blame uh our listener out there, either way, whichever they decide. But hey, maybe we should have them on to let us know. Um I would love it if they do have a little altercation and what happens there. Because I know this listener ain't afraid of uh conflict, but it's a tough call. It is a tough call.
David:Anyway, speaking of going lower, why don't we do our top three list, shall we?
Gavin:Gate three arcs, top three list, three, two, one. So this week's top three was my list, and it is what are the three times you were the most embarrassed as a kid? Now, this definitely made me go down memory lane. And an awful lot of the time I had to think, wait, was I embarrassed or was I ashamed? And is this actually a really sad story, or can we keep it light? Uh, there's plenty of sad things, but let's do that on our sister uh podcast called called Gavin just talks about gratitude and shame the entire time. Anyway. Oh fuck, I didn't number them. Um hold on.
David:Guys, this is if you're our first time listener, this is as prepared as Gavin gets, period.
Gavin:As prepared as I get. Okay, number three, my third most embarrassing moment as a kid was the time that I called Tracy Rosencranz a pig in first grade because she took my paper away from me and she marched right up to our teacher and she said, Hey, Mrs. House gave and called me a pig. And Mrs.
SPEAKER_00:House grabbed my mouth like this and made me have fishy lifts and said, You don't call anybody a pig. What do you say to Tracy? And she turned my face towards Tracy and I went, Sorry.
David:I gotta give it to Miss House. She did the right thing.
Gavin:It was in front of the entire class, and it was mortifying. Wow. And as I go down this memory lane, I think there's an awful lot about being chided by my teachers that absolutely impairs the shit out of me. Number two was the time I was playing Little League, and my mom was at an appointment of some some kind, and she had left me, and I was late to the baseball game, and we were like 20 minutes late, and I was the first to bat all the time. So, weirdly, in this one game, they couldn't start the game until I got there. Mind you, this is way before cell phones. So, why they held the game for me, who was shocker, the worst player on the team. Never hit a single ball while I was up to bat.
David:Too many cartwheels and pirouettes at the batter box.
Gavin:They held the entire game for me. And so we parked on the like in the outfield, and I had to walk across the field trying to hide behind my mom because I was so mortified that we were late and they were holding the game for me. Meanwhile, everybody on the team is motioning, Gavin, Gavin, run! Come on, come on. I mean, talk about a run of shame across the field to be first at bat to just what? Strike out. That was awful. Number one most embarrassing moment that I could think of at this time was when I was playing soccer, and we had those really bad elastic shorts from the mid 80s, where an awful lot of the time you could have like one string coming out of the waistband, and the the string is like it could, it could be four feet long and just unravel your entire shorts, right? And I'm running, pretending to play, pretending to care about soccer, but my string was flying behind me. And I ran by my parents saying, My shorts are falling apart. And they're just like, go, go, go. And I'm like, Yeah, but my shorts are falling apart. It was really embarrassing. There you go. What about you, David?
David:Um, I have a soccer one and my number two, but for my number three, most embarrassing thing, it was raining. I was a freshman in high school, and obviously, when you're a freshman, every all the eyes are on you, right? Totally. And it was at lunchtime, and I got my little tray, and they have like these ketchup stations where you pump your ketchup on your plate, and I liked a lot of ketchup. And I had nowhere to sit because you know I'm a freshman. And so I'm walking around with this ketchup tray trying to find something, and I step on a puddle of water in the wrong shoes, and it was like an absolute cartoon where my feet went up over my head, I threw the thing in the air, I landed on my back, and ketchup rained down on me.
Gavin:I mean, that is the most Charlie Brown thing I've ever heard.
David:It was so Charlie Brown, but also not only does the whole cafeteria stop, point, and laugh, but I this is again this is the olden days. There are no cell phones, there's no calling mom to come get you, to give, there's no other clothes in a so I'm for the rest of the day, Hester Prynn walking around with this fucking catch all over me, the fucking, the fucking dark mark on me all day, and people continuing to laugh every time they see me. I reek of vinegar and tomato paste. It was awful.
Gavin:Two points for the Hester Prynn reference, though. That was that was that was a deep dive.
David:So, number two for me is also a soccer one. I um was always in like T ball, and then my parents are like, you should do soccer, but we should definitely put you in in the middle of a season where you haven't learned how to play soccer yet. And so I they they literally dropped me off when they were already playing a game. I have never played soccer a day in my life, and they pushed me on the field, like, David, you're gonna play. I don't even remember the name of the position. And I just went, okay, I guess I just try to find the ball and kick it. And so literally, they would start playing, and five seconds later, they would blow the whistle and say that I was offside. And it happened three times in a row. So I start crying because I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. Finally, the next time the ball's going around, the ball comes to me. And I'm like, I fucking got it. I start running down the field. I start kicking. People start cheering. I'm kicking, I'm I kick it into the fucking goal. I make a goal on my first fucking soccer game ever in my life. And then I walk over to my coach who's like, you just scored for the other team, you piece of shit. I ran the wrong way and scored a goal against my own team. So that was number two. Um, and number one, this to date, when I think about when I had to type this into our document, I got I cringed, like I got sweaty and clammy. I used to be a figure skater, a competitive figure skater. Uh-huh.
Gavin:You've shared that before. Uh-huh.
David:Yes. And so I was also very strict. So I was always very embarrassed, and I was always trying to keep it very, very DL, as the kids say. So I would go to these competitions, and at the time I was pretty good, and I would win all these awards or whatever, or this your trophies or whatever. And my mom was like, Oh, I should call the school and tell them how great you're doing. Oh, no. Because that's a really big deal. And I would tell my mom, please don't fucking do that. I'm trying to keep this on the DL. You should be proud. You should be proud. Well, she didn't fucking listen. And one day in fifth grade, the announcements come on, and I hear our principal say, and David Vaughn went to this figure skating competition and got first in beat him up in the yard and call him a faggot competition. And I was like, oh my God. It was one of those moments where, like, if somebody had been like, you can pay all the money you'll ever make your entire life just to disappear, I would have done it in a second. Like, it's so And I'm like, I'm saying it. I'm like, I'm like I'm about to throw up. I'm thinking about how a human and again, all faces turned towards me and they were like, what? You figure skate? But then the jiggles up. So then I just decided to be gay just to kind of like, you know, not the only reason I think.
Gavin:I was saying to distract them from the fact that you were a figure skater.
David:Totally. Totally. Um, so that's my number one. All right. So next week, I I'm tired of talking about parenting. So we're gonna do a totally different one. What are the top three live events you've ever witnessed? All right. Could be musicals, concerts, it could be anything. What are the top three live events? Okay, so our guest this week is the star behind Amplify Matching, a concierge service for IPs to find egg donors and sperm donors and surrogates, as well as B surrogacy, which is a surrogacy advocacy group. Oh, that's hard to say. Uh, but she doesn't just talk the talk. No, no, no, no. Because our guest was also a surrogate herself, delivering five, count them, five babies over the course of four different surrogacy journeys. And if that wasn't enough, because no good deed goes unpunished, she's also a mom to two teenage girls. So everybody, please roll their eyes at Shelly Marsh.
Gavin:Oh my god, my eyes are rolling back into the back of my head. But thank you for being better than we are, Shelly, and demeaning yourself with our dumb podcast.
SPEAKER_04:Anytime, anytime. I love to, you know, give charity work as best possible.
David:Wow. Ouch. I I have been called charity work in bed before, but now I'm being called charity work uh uh by somebody.
Gavin:Yeah, exactly.
David:Well, thank you for joining us. Also, for those of you who don't know, Shelly got up so fucking early this morning. It is what, 7:30 in the morning where you're at?
SPEAKER_04:It is.
Gavin:I mean, let's be honest, that's not 4:30, but to be able to come on our podcast, that is so and look good. She looks good.
David:She's got her starbies in her hand, she looks great.
SPEAKER_04:Whatever it takes.
David:So, Shelly, you and I met, um, like you said, uh, before we started recording about 150 years ago at a Men Having Babies conference. And I think we were both on a panel, is that right? Like I was like a dad, and you were a surrogate, and we were being interviewed about whatever. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I met you there, and um yeah, so much has happened since. There's a lot of things, but we wanted to bring you on for a lot of reasons. You're obviously one of the biggest names in surrogacy in general. You have these two amazing companies, which we'll get into. Also, you, like I said in the intro, you have done this four fucking times, not including your own pregnancy. And I oh yeah, I it's just unbelievable. And so I know we have a lot of, I was saying on our pre-interview yesterday, I we have a lot of listeners who are like starting the process. So I think you would be a perfect person to talk to us about kind of a little bit about like kind of the process, but more like from an insider's view, what is it like to be a surrogate? I know that's a big question, but like what is it like to be a surrogate? We like to start with the simple topics at the beginning. Yeah, I mean and also Israel-Palestine. Let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, let's start small. Um, Israel-Palestine, it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:Um, what is it like to be a surrogate? I mean, it's a cool experience. Like, I chose surrogacy because I was a mom at 21. Like, not my smartest move, but then I was like, okay, so I'm pretty good at this being pregnant thing.
Gavin:What did it mean to you to be good at it?
SPEAKER_04:I my pregnancy was easy. I didn't gain much weight, my deliveries were less than 30 minutes. So it was like, okay, every time I told that story in a room full of women, they all like dagger-eyed me and they were like, shut up, Shelly. And so I'm like, okay, I had no complications. My doctor was like, you did great. And I'm like, if the doctor says I'm great, like he also said my blood type was a positive. So I'm like, I'm an A plus patient.
David:Um literally A plus. He says it on the medical records. Look on my chart. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. My chart says A plus Shelly Marsh. Thank you. Um, so I knew I wanted at least one more child. So I have two girls of my own, and I met a woman who had to have an emergency hysterectomy at 26 years old, and she couldn't have her own biological children at that point. And I was like, okay, well, that's terrible. And she was like, I'm looking into surrogacy. And I was 23, 24 at the time. And so I'm like, oh, that's great. And I go home and I'm like Googling, like, what is surrogacy into my Google bar. And then at that point, the seed was just planted. Like, I thought, like, how cool would it be to give somebody what I have? Like, my two daughters are the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. They're also like the most pain in the ass thing that's ever happened to me, but like more people should have that. Like, oh, thank God.
Gavin:Finally, the first relatable thing you've said here is being able to say, Yeah, you love your kids, but oh my God, what a pain in the ass.
David:Is it is it kind of like when you taste something gross and you're like, here, try this. Yeah. You're like, oh, these kids are assholes. Everyone else should have to have these kids.
SPEAKER_04:100%. Like babies are sweet and wonderful and little shit monsters, but like I love babies are great, but I'm like, you know, they grow up to teenagers, right? Like, if I have to do it, all you should have to do it. Yeah, so that's kind of how it started. I looked into an agency at that point and I was like, I want to help somebody. And they're like, well, look at this really cute heterosexual couple. And I was like, no, not really for me. Um, and they're like, What do you mean? And I was like, I think I want to go with somebody who has all the odds stacked against them, like socially, politically, biologically. I would like to help a gay couple. And the first agency was like, Oh, then we can't help you. And I was like, Good. I would rather know that up front. So thank you.
David:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:Fuck off. Um, so I found another agency, and they showed me a couple of of profiles. And the first one I read was this adorable couple from Norway, and they've been together for 12 years, and one's a doctor, and one's a singer. And I was like, Oh, this is the stuff dreams are made of. And so I was like, Yeah, let's go. And they're like, Do you want to see more profiles? And I was like, No, that's enough for me. Like, let's go.
Gavin:Wow. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And that's what was my first journey. It took a long time. They had some egg donor issues. Um, so we were matched for about nine months before an embryo transfer even took place. So we really got to know each other and our families and just really created a solid foundation before we eventually carried twins into the world.
David:Wow. That is incredible for your first journey. And I think a lot of people who don't know a lot about surgic seed don't realize how long it takes to just even get pregnant, is even if everything goes well. That like contracts and medical testing and clearing and cycles, and like you said, and then you're that's not even including the egg donors and creating and embryos and and all the things that go on with that. If everything goes perfectly, it takes so long. So, um, like for you, nine months, and which it sounded like was a like a surprise blessing because you got to kind of get to know these guys in a way that's a good thing. All the better wouldn't have, yeah.
Gavin:It is always a miracle, though, that any of us are here, and especially in a in a process that we think we're kind of orchestrating and in control of, which I definitely put in quotes, it's a stark reality check that no, it's it takes a long time, and you so much choice is actually taken out of it. So yeah.
David:I'm also just really regretting and embarrassed that I use the word blessing. I apologize to all the listener. I I don't I don't know why I said blessing, but anyway, blessing is what I said.
Gavin:If if if there's ever an appropriate time to use it, this is certainly one of them.
SPEAKER_04:Any other time, I require you to rebuke it in the name of RuPaul.
David:Our Lord and Savior, RuPaul Charles. Um, okay, so tell us a little bit about surrogate's from the surrogate's point of view, kind of like why most surrogates do it. Because I think I told you a little bit on the pre-interview when I went into doing surrogacy as an IP, which means intended parent for those of you who are like, what does IP mean? Um, I was a little not pessimistic. I was just, I was just like a little, I was just in a weird place with like people don't actually do it for altruism. And when I say altruism, I don't mean for free. What I mean is people aren't really getting into surrogacy as surrogates because they want to help create a family. It's really about the money. And I don't know why I was being such a dick about it, but I just, I couldn't shake this idea. And what happened was after going through two different surrogacy journeys and being in all these matching groups and these Facebook groups, I was like, oh, they are actually, these women are actually putting their lives at risk and their families on hold and everything because they want to be doing this. And it it totally turned me around. But I I'm curious from your point of view, like why other than like I had a good pregnancy, like what are some common reasons surrogates want to be a surrogate?
SPEAKER_04:I think for everybody is different. There are, of course, women out there that are like the financial gain would be life-changing. And I don't think there's any shame in that. Like, if that's how you're entering it and that's what you're presenting, cool, do it. But for me, it was really, I almost felt guilty. Like, who was I to have two children by the time I was 24? Like it didn't first seem fair. And so I was like, okay, let me give back because like my irresponsibility should benefit somebody, um, was really why I started. I didn't know surrogates were compensated when I first started. Um, so when I did the full application and got it all processed and put through, and they were like, your base compensation is$20,000. Granted, this was 12 years ago, so things have substantially changed since then. But I literally like my heart fell out of my butt, and I was like, what do you mean$20,000? Like I couldn't even put into words like how life-changing that was for me, a mom of two at 24 years old. Like, it was insane. So for me, I do think surrogates should be compensated. You're right, there is a disruption that's happening to their lives. There's a lot of discomfort that goes into pregnancy, and there's a danger factor. Like something could happen. Um, I don't ever think there's gonna be the right amount of money because, like, how do you put a number on that? Um, but with what I do as a surrogate advocate is really push for making it cost effective for intended parents, but also making the surrogates feel like they're being valued in the process, which is like tight rope walking while you're juggling fireballs. Um but for me, I think a fair number for a first-time surrogate is around$45,000. Um, it's on the lower side of a lot of agencies, but I feel like you should come to it with a very small amount of you that wants to do good, that wants to make somebody a family that is doing it for an altruistic reason. Um, but of course, nobody does anything for free. Um, so I'll send you guys my bill after this podcast.
Gavin:At least that it's a gay on. Have you ever had um uh surrogates that you've spoken to that they they clearly or like potential surrogates that you said, mmm, I don't think you're in this for the right reason.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I had a girl, like dead ass, was like, I want$125,000.
David:Ooh. Me too, girl, me too.
SPEAKER_04:I was like, okay, so if you add up all of my surrogacy journeys, four, by the way, I think it just hit that mark.
Gavin:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Four.
Gavin:I mean, bless again her uh uh forthrightness there. Okay, thank you for that.
SPEAKER_04:I was just like, I'm not your girl. I'm not, I can't, I can't in good conscience help you. I wish you all the best. Please lose my number.
David:But that's the thing, is it gets really complicated because there are there are surrogates. I know them. There are surrogates who do it for free, for do it for no compensation, and there are surrogates who are getting insane amounts and everywhere in between. And some of that is predatory from different agencies. Some of that is there's just a there's a lot of right, some people, family members do it for them for free. There's a lot of wiggle room. But it is one of those things that happen in this journey that you know very well. All three of us know on this call, is that there is a mixture between this like beautiful, we're gonna create a family together, and there's practical numbers that you have to say out loud that is awkward and weird, and you just have to fucking do it. So which is deciding what the compensation is, is something you have to talk about.
Gavin:It's a perfect metaphor for life, too. You gotta be able to discuss all of these matters that that because life is always messy. And I mean, frankly, having a kid, whether you're doing it like the missionary position style or whatever, um, having a kid, you need to have awkward conversations because that's just what happens. Speaking of awkwardness, though, how do you um uh manage the emotional bond that is created with an embryo inside of you that you are not ultimately going to keep as your own child?
SPEAKER_04:I think that's where I got lucky. So I had nine months to get to know this beautiful couple and know their family, and we FaceTimed with their mom, and it was just really cool. So for me, I was never attached to the babies. The first time was twins. So on delivery day, of course, going into it, I was like, fuck, what if I'm sad? Like, what if I'm upset about this? And I can't say there's not a level of sadness because you're sad that the journey's over. Like, what does this next chapter look like? We don't know. These two amazing guys who focused all of their attention on me now have two small humans to care for. So, like for me, it was really the unknown. I don't like surprises. Um, so it was just like, how do we manage that? But handing them their babies was like an out-of-body experience. Like, I'm a huge intervention person. Like, I will watch people get fucked up on TV all day. And my husband always says to me that surrogacy was my heroine. It was the high I was always chasing, which is probably why I did four journeys. Um, but I think for me it was never and like they the babies, all of them that I carried, feel like nieces and nephews. Like I love them. I would drop whatever if they needed help, but they're exactly where they're supposed to be because that's what we worked so hard for. Um, so I never had attachment issues to the babies. I think I have attachment issues to the daddies. Um because I'm like, I love you so much.
David:Um but it is amazing how I uh what your story is, I think is pretty common. It's not, it's not, uh, it's not unheard of that this is a common story with surrogates. And I think a lot of people outside the system goes like, how could you possibly have this thing growing in you and then give birth to it and see it and not have that bond? But there it is something amazing that I watched with my first and second surrogate where they were, they were they were very loving and they were, but like they were holding somebody else's baby. There was never, there wasn't a lot of tears and like you said, the journey being over and this big high coming crashing down. But the bond, like that, this is my baby was never like never even in their the their they they didn't even think about it. And I think one of the best ways that um IPs and surrogates kind of get around that is from the beginning, the words you use, right? Like your baby kicked today, like your like uh, like my our baby is in her. Like all of those words I think really help the during the journey. Would you agree?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think just being as honest with yourself as possible from the beginning helps create those clear and healthy emotional boundaries. Um and just really helps kind of outline like the purpose of why we're doing this, how we're doing this, and just helping, yeah, like slowly create that separation so that as we get closer to delivery day, it's not as I would I don't want to say traumatic because I don't think it's ever traumatic. So it's not as jarring when you're like, this is my first time delivering a baby that I'm not bringing home. And it's like news flash, I didn't want any more kids. Like, two is good.
Gavin:Well, then along those lines of also creating emotional barriers um that are healthy approaches to the entire process. How did you prepare your children and your husband for this process?
SPEAKER_04:My husband was good with one kid. So, like the first, like when we delivered our second, he was like, Oh, so we gotta take this one home. No, he didn't really say that, but he was good with one. So for him, my bigger concern though was I have two girls, and my first surrogacy journey was twin boys. So, how would he feel about me delivering a boy that wasn't his? That was more of my concern. Um, and he was like, he was like, girl, I don't care. So for him, I don't know. Like, I think he was more worried about me. Oh, sorry, did that come out? So he was more worried about me and how I would feel and how I would process this, which I think is a very respectful way for him to approach it. Like his wanting to take care of me superseded anything else. Um, but he was fine with it, honestly. Like, especially once he learned the process and there was legal representation involved and he realized that things were being done properly, he felt a lot of relief. Um, but then my kids were small, they were five and three when I delivered the twins. Um, so my sister-in-law was actually pregnant at the same time I was pregnant with one of my surrogate babies, and my oldest daughter would rub her belly and say, Auntie, Auntie, who are you giving your baby to?
SPEAKER_03:And I'm like, She's keeping hers.
SPEAKER_04:Um and then my oldest started kindergarten like three weeks before the twins were born. And so they would go, she would be in class, and the teacher's like, Aubrey, I noticed your mommy's pregnant. Are you having a brother or a sister? They're two boys, but we're not keeping them.
David:Nice, nice.
SPEAKER_04:Hold on, let me explain.
David:Let me explain, ma'am. Um, what we my so my sister, my my husband's sister, shout out to our listener, Erin, um, uh delivered our first um baby. She was our first surrogate. And uh, we all went on a vacation to Hawaii when she was like, I want to say like seven or eight months. She was very pregnant, very visibly pregnant. And it she is, she is hilarious and loves all the dark humor. So whatever we would go place, they'd be like, oh, like how you know, I'm so excited about your baby. And she goes, Oh, it's not mine, it's my brother's. And she would just stop talking and let them just their faces melt. And it was so fucking funny. And the whole family loved that game. They're like, oh, this isn't mine, this is my brother's. Like that, because A, it was true, but also, but uh go going back to a more serious topic when you were saying about your husband, that is something that is really important to a lot of these agencies that I didn't think about is the surrogate's partner, whoever that is, and their support system is an important factor in moving forward. Because let's say your husband was like, No, you being pregnant makes me like, you know, you don't have that system of support and being on the same page, that can really fuck up a journey.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, it is a requirement for the husband or partner to be supportive, especially husband, because surrogacy is not legal in all 50 states. And even varying from state to state, the legalities of parental orders and birth certificates and all of that fun stuff. Um, so technically, in a state where pre-birth orders are issued before the baby arrives, so that dads or mom and dad who are biologically the baby's father on the birth certificate comes into play because my husband and I both had to sign on those judgment orders that like we were not claiming this baby. So if the husband's on board and he's like, I ain't signing that, then you're in this really Yeah, it really can mess things up. But I also think the backside of that is what I've tried to change in the industry as well as how we support the surrogate support person. Like they're a huge part. Like, I couldn't do this without my husband. He's the one there at the end of the night when my feet are swollen and my back hurts, and I just want to cry because the progesterone shots I had to do for 12 weeks put lumps in my ass. Like he's the one there that's kind of picking up the pieces. So we should really be rallying behind those people and supporting them. So they can support the surrogate the best way possible and giving them a voice in this process as well because they often don't have a voice, or they're just sitting in the background silently supporting their badass wife when really they they could use some support too.
David:They also have to go to doctor's appointments. They have to get SDI screenings. They have to also like you have to be you can't have sex during certain windows. Like there's a lot of not only the effect of like my wife is pregnant and these progesterone shots, which are insane. Um, but like there's a lot of stuff that the husband has to do, like physically, like you said, signing doctors or not do doctors appointments or exactly. Or like, yeah, good luck jerking off in the tool shed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Like if I ain't getting any, you ain't getting any. No.
Gavin:Sacrifices made all around. So you have also, in the midst of uh being a truly an altruist, you uh let's get a little more specific about the multiple businesses you have started. Why did you do such a thing? This must be the most bananas part of your journey, but why did you start not one but two businesses?
SPEAKER_04:I had three amazing surrogacy journeys, and my last one leveled me. I did an independent journey for people who I called friends, and it went south really fast once I was pregnant. Um, there's just communication issues and trust issues, which was so weird for me, seeing as how I got them discounts on legal contracts and my compensation and all of these things to make them parents. And it just ended so badly. Like I never saw the baby once she was born. Um and I was to the point where what the fuck am I doing? Like, why would I put this another woman in the position I was in that like I literally left the hospital, like, I'm gonna go apply at Starbucks and quit everything because a latte has never made me cry. Like that's where I was. Like it it was the saddest months of my life, followed by a hysterectomy. So I knew I didn't want to have any more children, but going from the world's worst surrogacy journey, in my opinion, to having a hysterectomy, which took a huge part of who I was away from me, no doubt. I didn't think I could do it anymore. Um, and like, why would I want to spread sadness? Like, that's totally against everything I was trying to do. Um, so I went to my job and I was like, I think I'm gonna go. And the doctor, I love him so much, I'll plug him because Dr. Ringler, California fertility partners, he was my boss for many years. I love him. He got me pregnant twice as a doctor.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, okay, clarification. Pun intended.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, pun intended. He sat me down and he was like, Shelly, you're probably one of the strongest people I know, and you're just gonna give up. He was like, Obviously, you were dealt this rough journey so you could better advocate for other people. So I need you to just keep going. And I was like, Well, fuck, if Dr. Wrangler believes in me, like, girl, I can do it all.
Gavin:And I have that A plus blood side.
SPEAKER_04:So that's when I decided I needed to make this feel good again. I needed to put the magic back into this process that brought me so much joy for my first three journeys and use what hurt me to help educate and empower other people on their journey. I also think that the surrogate compensation rising costs and some agencies offering substantial amounts, like, we got to put a stop to that. So it was really like multiple avenues that came together. So I started B Surrogacy to help educate and empower other women. There's a lot of misconceptions out there about surrogacy. Like, well, how could you give up your baby? Well, newsflash, it ain't my baby. Um, do I have to use my own eggs? All of these weird questions that I'm like, why don't people know this? Like a quick Google search, and you would know this. So I started to really help educate and empower women. And I do partner with a few different surrogacy agencies to help not only pre-screen these women with their medical background, pregnancy history, health history, what they're looking for in a journey, their stance on termination, the types of intended parents they want to work with, and I help match them with the right agency that I feel would best support them on their journey through surrogacy. Um, and I just stay with them forever to just help educate and empower and just make sure they have somebody in their corner. And then I, of course, loop my husband in. So if any surrogate's husband is like, I don't know about this, and I'm like, well, would it help you to talk to another surrogate's husband? My husband's free on Wednesday at five. And just not only help create this beautiful sisterhood of women who are amazing and awesome and have badass uteruses, but also to support the husbands who support these women or the partners. I mean, I work with a lot of single moms, lesbian moms, straight moms, whoever it is. Like, as long as you've had a kid and you're a good person and you otherwise qualify, like, girl, let's talk.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So that's my goal behind it is to control the cost, to control the misconceptions, and to just help spread the word how beautiful this can be.
David:And it's really, I love uh not to get on the gratitude journey, because that's Gabin's gaven. Totally my journey. Yeah, it's totally his journey. But like Hashtag Blast. I so appreciate people like you. And also we had a guest a couple weeks, uh a couple months ago, uh, Lauren Macler, who started an egg donation agency, kind of with the same coming from a little bit of a traumatic place and then kind of being like, How can I make this better? How can I make egg donation better? How can I make surrogacy or competition or whatever? How can I make this thing better? Because I think because it's kind of sensitive and weird and dealing with a lot of emotions, people aren't as apt to try to like, how can we make this better? It's all like hush-hush. So I do appreciate you doing that. And that your fourth journey was so bad. It could have easily, like you said, just leveled you. You worked at Starbucks and never did another thing ever. And so, with that, without having to go into too much detail, about that fourth journey, what can you tell us about it that will help surrogates or IPs who are listening who are like, I don't want to go through a Shelly Marsh fourth journey. I want to go through a Shelly Marsh first, second, and third journey. And I don't mean Stan Marsh's sister on South Park. Do you know that's also Shelly Marsh? Okay. I was about to say. All right.
SPEAKER_04:Every time I meet somebody, I'm like, Google my name, see what you get. Like Shelly Marsh from Shelly Park. Yeah. It is a South Park character, and I love it. I mean, for me, my last journey, we went into it trying to save them money. And I think that's always a terrible way to start a journey. Um, it should have been like in hindsight, like hindsight's not 20-20, hindsight's one, because 20 over 20 is one.
David:Uh okay, math for everyone. Stealing that stealing my getting out my graphing calculator. Hold, please.
SPEAKER_04:So I didn't pick the attorney I wanted because I picked the attorney that the intended parents could afford. Um, and that should have been a huge red flag. So I do the attorney I used, I loved them for many years. I've known them for a very long time. I've never utilized them as my attorney, but cost-wise, it fit the intended parents' budget. So I think more importantly, is I don't cut costs on big things. So my dad always taught me like lowball prices give you a low ball service. Like, I failed you, dad. I'm sorry. Um, so I think that was the biggest part is my attorney was telling me, no, no, no, this is how we have to do this, this, and this. And I followed her instructions, and it probably wasn't the best way to handle it. So it created a lot of friction. So I think people should always be true to themselves and like trust your gut. Like, if your gut's telling you don't do this, then don't do it. Like, if your gut's telling you like this professional isn't making me feel supported, switch them out. Um, I feel like there's a lot of core parts of surrogacy that you need to trust the professional. So, first find a doctor you trust, second, find an attorney you trust. And third, if you're using an agency, make sure you're finding an agency that is literally your project manager and really understands every step of the way to make sure that nothing is missed and each party is fully represented and supported the entire time. And having done my fourth and final journey, not with an agency and with an attorney I didn't trust, I just felt like I was stuck holding a lot of the responsibility that I shouldn't have ever been asked to. Um, and then my attorney was making terrible decisions that ended up being my responsibility. Um it just created it created such a hostile relationship between me and the intended parents, and I don't think it was necessary, and there's no way to fix it now, nor do I want to after I've seen how things played out. Um, so it did help me figure out like how not to do things, but like what a crappy way to figure that out.
David:It's so funny. You you mentioned that I totally forgot about this story, but I did the discount attorney thing for our first journey. Luckily, it was like I said, with my sister-in-law, and there was there was a built-in trust and love and whatever, and we didn't know what we were doing. But I'm realizing he stopped responding to emails um using the aft right after the birth or somewhere around the birth because we were doing things. And then I finally had to reach out to a new attorney, and they were like, Oh, well, like, why'd you reach out to us? I was like, Well, my former attorney is just like, no, I don't know what's going on. And I told them their name and he goes, Oh, that they were just recently disparred. I think they're in prison. And I was like, what? They were like, Yeah, he was like, and then when I read back the like the document, now that I've I was like, oh, this is like like a fourth grader's like like term project. Like, this is not a real like, of course, this guy went to prison. So we were very, very fortunate. So I would totally agree with you. Like, there are places to skimp on, like, listen, when you're at the hospital and your baby's born, every time those nurses shift, ask for more diapers. Steal all of it. Every time they steal all of it. That's where you save money. Do not save money on returnings.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, yep. Which is also why I know you mentioned Amplify matching. That's why I also created Amplify. So I've always also been a huge supporter of surrogates. I think that they're amazing women. And of course, there's shitty ones out there. Like there's shitty everything, like there's shitty priests out there, but whatever.
David:Um shitty podcast hosts, right, David? Yep.
SPEAKER_04:I mean shitty surrogates all day. No, I'm just kidding. But I also am fiercely I've worked in a fertility clinic for 15 years before I've kind of branched out on my own. So this is literally all I know how to do is get people pregnant. Um and I always saw that like the intended parents that I would help find their donor or surrogate or help screen their donor or surrogate, they've usually been through a long road to get to that point. Like the surrogate came for her medical screening and she was pregnant, or they found the perfect donor for their family, and then the agency sends them cost sheets that are unrealistic. So for me, I also wanted to help support intended parents and make this financially possible for them, but also help creating clear timelines, like cost analysis. They get everything up front so you understand if this is something that's actually possible for you. And then let's figure it out. So a lot of times I'll say, okay, so what are you looking for? What is your timeline and what is your budget? Okay, well, here's how we could make that all possible. Um, and I like to just give them back the control, like you said in the beginning, as a parent through surrogacy and egg donation, you give up a lot of control in this process. One, you're not carrying the baby a lot of the time, and you have to trust the doctors and the attorneys and the agencies. Um, that the least we could do is give them back a little bit of control, whether that's finding the right donor, regardless of what agency they're with, or finding the right surrogate. I don't think the agency so much matters because there's a lot of really good ones out there. It's about finding the right person that you feel comfortable partnering with on your journey towards family. And so that's what I like to do for my intended parent clients is just give them back a little bit of that control and make sure that they have resources and options as well, because there's a lot of people out there that try to take advantage of them. And I think that that's terrible.
Gavin:And so much of this is just based upon communication, which once again, it's like life is complicated, it's awkward, yada, yada, yada, but you just gotta talk through it and eventually um you end up having that baby that you that you're meant to have.
David:And speaking of, now that you have this baby, um being a parent is easy, right? So you have no horror stories from being a parent at all, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_04:I always say my children are either going to run the country or a prison gang. I'm just not sure which one. They're born to be leaders.
SPEAKER_03:Very strong.
SPEAKER_04:I always want to, yeah, like I want to raise strong-willed, independent women, but like maybe not while I'm raising them. Like if we could just switch that on when they turn 18. Um But I knew I was in for it when my four should my oldest was four years old, and we took her to the mall and she wanted this like pillow pet or something. And I was like, hold on, daddy has the stroller with my purse in it. When he gets back, I'll get it for you. Well, that wasn't fast enough. And she threw herself on the floor, kicking and screaming. Worst mommy ever! Like screaming.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:So my husband comes running in and like throws her over his shoulder, like a freaking lumberjack. And we get to the car, and you know, when the kids are trying to get them in the seat belt and they keep arching their back, so you can't buckle them in their car seat. She's doing all of it. So we finally like hog tied her down and got her in. And we're driving towards the highway, and she rips off her shoe, still screaming and hollering, throws her shoe at the windshield of the car. My husband is like, what was that? She was like, I hope we crash and this car gets fucked. And I was like biting my cheek so I couldn't smile. And my husband looks at me and he says, Well, she used it in the right context. So are we allowed to be mad?
David:She did. She really did. That was a clever, it was a good joke. Excellent. And like etymology right then. That but that's that is so hard when your kid says something that is they're not supposed to say, but it's kind of clever and funny. You're like, so right.
SPEAKER_04:So it took us like, I don't know, like seven or eight minutes to like get it under control. And we're like, when you get home, all your toys are gone. Like black trash bags came out, tied them all up. And I'm like, if you can, every day you're good, you'll get one toy back.
SPEAKER_03:Nice.
SPEAKER_04:And it's like we had to have consequences, but I'm like, she used it in the right context.
David:Like she really did. She really did. I think, I think a lot of people who aren't parents yet think they can imagine, like, oh, uh, I didn't buy my kid a toy, so they got mad and had a tantrum, and they don't understand it. That's not the tantrum you get. You get that tantrum, which is where I said yes, and I'm reaching into my purse, and she that was not quick enough, or whatever. You're waiting for the first or whatever. Yeah, that is parenting. That's where it's at.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. So it's an actual shit show. And I feel like everybody who thinks that this is a great idea, like, let's go.
David:Let's go. Let's do it. Yeah. Buckle up, baby. Buckle up.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
David:Um, so we end every interview with the same questions, which is what is your favorite part of parenting and what's your least favorite part of parenting?
SPEAKER_04:My favorite part of parenting is watching them become who they were supposed to be, and just like nurturing them in a way that allows them to be their true authentic self. Whether I understand what that is or not, I don't know if I'll ever understand why my children are the way they are, but they're so very different and brilliant and beautiful. And I love being able to like have a front row seat to that. And the worst part is I call my kids sassholes because they're sassy assholes and I can actually say sass hole to their face. And sometimes I'm like, okay, so I've been around a little longer than you. Like, at what point are you gonna trust what I'm not telling you because I'm mad at you or I hate you or any of that. I'm telling you because like I fucked up and I don't want you to do the same thing. So for me, that's the hardest part is like allowing them the autonomy to fuck up on their own. Um, like they're not gonna learn every lesson I'm trying to teach them. Sometimes they just have to like, I what do I say? Okay, little birdie, go swim. And my daughter's like, birds don't swim. And I'm like, exactly, like birds don't swim. So like go figure it out. So I think that's the harder part is trusting myself enough to know that I started them out in the right way, that they're gonna make the right choice, even if they kind of mess up a little bit along the way.
David:I love that you've prepped for the CPS call to be like, I didn't call them assholes. I called them sass holes, Your Honor. So let me out of the back of this cruiser. Um, Shelly, you are a dream. Thank you so much for coming here and demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast. Um, uh, if you want to find her, she is the rock, like I told you, rock star behind Amplify Matching and also Be Surrogacy. Thank you so much, Shelly.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you guys.
Gavin:So, something great that I am mining for as long as I can because I know it won't last. My daughter desperately wants to go to another concert. She wants to go to the Tate McCrae concert. Do you know Tate McRae? No, I heard Tate and that's all I could hear. I that uh that connection is often made in my head as well. Well, it's funny to see what different eras of parenting we're in because Tate McRae is a very big deal in the pop world right now. And she's good, she's good. I enjoy her music, but it's clear that you do not listen to pop radio right now. You're still in your Disney and Broadway phase because your children will tolerate um your music. But um, believe me, I'm not in control of our Spotify list anymore. So she wants to go to the concert, it's like eight months away. She's like, Dad, you need you need to get me these tickets. You need to get me these tickets. And I'm like, let's approach this a different way. We have a contract about not her behavior. I'm not a complete terrorist, but I am like the things that I ask her to practice, the shit that I pay for, like voice lessons, don't get me started, and um soccer, which she never practices at all. I'm like, I want 15 minutes a day from these things. That's not too much to ask. Let's have a contract, and I am fully manipulating the behavior out of her that I want. And she's calling my bluff. So I guess I gotta go get those goddamn tickets. But you know what? It's totally worth it because eight months of better behavior is worth overpriced pop superstar concert tickets for sure. And I'm feeling really great about that. How about you?
David:Um, so this week we got an email from our listener. And so, my something great uh is this really beautiful email we got. And uh one of our listeners wrote in, uh, a new listener, and I just wanted to read it because it just, you know, I uh we do this and we do this because we're millionaires and we make 77 cents a year. Um, but it is nice to get these really nice reviews and these mentions, and those of you who have shared the podcast and given us reviews and everything has been very uh wonderful. But uh, we got this email. I just wanted to read it out loud. It says, hi, I'm just writing to say thank you so much for what you guys do. I discovered your podcast about six months ago, and I love listening to you guys. My husband and I are in the middle of a surrogacy journey and expecting a baby girl this July. Yay! Um I love listening to you guys because you're so relatable, entertaining, and your experiences help educate those of us just starting families. I don't have other gay couples around me to lean on or to go to for advice when it comes to family creating questions, and that's what make podcasts like yours so amazing. Thank you. So that was a very, very sweet email we got. So that was my something great.
Gavin:That's definitely something great. And that's our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast on the internet. David is at David FM VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge on nothing.
Gavin:Please. Leave us a glowing five-star review, or even send us your emails about how much you love the show, wherever you get your podcasts.
David:Thank you. And we'll kill your dog next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.
