Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
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Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
The one with journalist Spencer Macnaughton
This week, David breaks new ground with his annoyance at iPads, Gavin enjoys classic theatre and forces it on his kid, we rank the top 3 careers you don't want your kids to have, and we are joined this week by Emmy-nominated and shirtless-journalist Spencer Macnaughton, who schools us in the way only a Canadian can, as we chat about media, his quest for childhood media literacy, and why he is starting his own company, Uncloseted Media.
Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast
Is it hot as fuck where you are? I I hate it. I hate the heat. As a as a member of the stocky man community, I like it a good like 61 degrees anywhere I think.
Gavin:I thought 69 was the degree.
David:Yeah, no.
Gavin:And this is Gay Triarch's.
David:So I want to start this episode off with a very hot topic that all parents understand. That I am I don't think anybody has an answer to, but I just like, can we talk about iPads? Because they are both the source and solution to all of my fucking problems.
Gavin:David, David, like 2014 called. Just you. No, 2014 called and it wants its hot topics back. But please continue.
David:I I I I just I I guess maybe because my kids are just now growing into iPad time. Yeah, the person they are before an iPad is in front of them, and the person they are after or during the iPad, and then the third person they become when you take that iPad away, are it's the holy trinity of terror. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. What is but but the thing is, is that either I have to every day say, no, we're not doing our iPad right now, cry, cry, bitch, moan, and do that for the rest of my life, or I give into it, and then when I take it away, they become psychopathic monsters. I'm trying to find a balance here. And my question to you, elder, is is there one? Or is this just a fight I'm gonna have until they leave the house?
Gavin:I mean, everybody listening to this, whether or not they have children, but especially those with chillins, are definitely rolling their eyes at this because this is the most cliche thing that you're going to battle for the next 10, 15 years. So just welcome to the party. That's all. I've been trying to tell you, trying to tell you. But it is Gavin, you know I don't listen to you. It is the it's the real fucking deal, man. It's the real fucking deal. And it's all about like this is why I revert to, you know, sincerity and generosity and gratitude and all this shit. Because honestly, it is a constant, constant, constant battle. And even today, literally today, um July 1st, 2024, right? Anyway, even today July 3rd. July 3rd. Even today, I woke up thinking, oh God, what kind of battle are we gonna have today? My daughter, who had a camp that was a little later in the morning, my uh we're on two different schedules right now with two fucking camps, which is of course a complete nightmare. And that means one gets to lay in bed longer than the other, meaning my daughter gets to lay in bed longer. And she has um cell phone limits that I uh control like a fucking terrorist from my phone, and I had set a certain thing so that everything went dark after 40 minutes instead of letting her do this for 20 minutes, this 20 minutes, so she was screaming at me from her bed. And I said, Can you come down here and talk to me like an adult? So she called me because I had not turned off the phone from upstairs, screaming at me about how I had limited her um screen time universally or globally, instead of just like app by app. Listen, dude, it never ends. And it create, but it is this is why and you can't put an embargo on it because this is this is the world, right?
David:The world is on the iPad. I learning is on the right pad. I So it's like you gotta give a little bit of the drugs, yeah, but then you can't just give them all the drugs. And also the the fucking wolverine that is uncovered when you pull that fucking screen away from them. I my kid turns into the meanest person I've ever met in my entire life. This is the most cliche shit you have ever brought to Gatriarchs. But I'm glad I don't know what to do, but I'm experiencing it. And listen, I bet all the other parents out there have experienced it. I was hoping you had a solution. But no, it's completely unhelpful. And honestly, you've been kind of mean to me, like somebody took away your iPad.
Gavin:Well, listen, let on a sincere note, it's just all about maintaining um balance. And that is the most Libra thing ever. But it is, it is all about being able to set the expectations and be like, listen, you can earn it. First, you have to eat your broccoli and then you get the dessert.
David:So, first you, you know, we do that, but it's just like, do I have to argue? Like, what it's like, I want iPad in the morning. No, you know, iPad is after this time. Do I have to have that conversation every day for the next 17 years? Is my question. Yes, you do. Even though it is a hard rule, iPads are after dinner for half an hour. Oh my god, you are spin that rule. That is strict. Oh no, we are we are strict as fuck. But then this morning I promised Hannah, my two-year-old, she has like this little mini one. I was like, you can play on it a little bit because she doesn't know how to use it. And then, of course, Emmett was like, well, I want to use my iPad. And then when it was time to go to school, it was like I slapped each of them in the mouth. They all just became wolves. And I was like, this is insane. Well, this is. But I guess this is just something at the issue.
Gavin:This is also why we were given this platform to give all of our wisdom and knowledge to the world, which is desperate to figure out how to do it all. Because honestly, parenting is such a fucking marathon and it is non-stop, and you just gotta stay strong, dude. You can't, it's yeah, I mean, listen, you're allowed to have moments of offense. But I'm a weak little baby. I well, okay. You pretend, you pretend, but I know you are a strong woman hear you roar. Look at those guns. Look at those guns.
David:I am a strong black woman.
Gavin:I saw those guns as you were um flexing death and destruction. I did just come from the gym. I did this. No, I didn't come. Well, anyway, it's all about limits, dude. And you just have to be um have a longer endurance than they do, and good fucking luck. But I agree with you. I mean, not to belabor this, but I do think that embargoes are just ridiculous because come on, it is you want your kid to be able to navigate technology. The world is there. And and they need to have the self-control eventually to know when they have limits. So good luck with enforcing your limits. But believe me, literally every day, even today on July 77th, 2028, um, I was dealing with basically screen limits this morning.
David:Wait till you hear my top three list for uh next week. It's it's gonna play to us a little bit.
Gavin:So in the meantime, on the exact opposite of the iPad discussion, this uh just a couple nights ago, I took my daughter to see uh South Pacific at Goodspeed Opera House, which is not very far from us. And she I had to literally drag her out of the house kicking and screaming because she would rather stay home on her phone than go fill in the blank, then go just fill in the blank. But I was like, listen, we're gonna go see this show. And I didn't set her up ahead of time. I actually didn't talk about the show at all. I was just like, listen, we're gonna go see a show. Now, David, uh South Pacific is not my favorite musical of all time. I do think it's a classic. I think there's lots of themes that are still resonant, and now having just seen it again the other night, it's really fascinating that in the 1950s they wrote a show show basically about racism. It's uh actually quite interesting. The show was beautifully done, all the actors were great, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, of course. Uh but at intermission, I turned to my daughter. She actually kept, she she bit her tongue, and I said, So what did you what is your favorite part so far of the show? And she goes, uh the end. And I'm like, listen, but I was gonna force this culture because I do believe that she will be a better person, having seen at least once in her life South Pacific, if she even if she goes around saying for the rest of her life, she hated it. So I don't know. Are do you plan to force feed culture like that to your kids even more?
David:I feel like I don't force culture the way you do, but I do I do force what I want them to absorb. But I do it a little more like, you know, I I like to play Broadway show tunes and sing, dance, and around the house. And I don't force them to do it, but I try to make sure that they are exposed, exposed to it enough to where at least they were like, Oh, my dad used to love musical theater, and I have some sort of knowledge of it. But I would, I'm a way better parent than to drag my daughter to Good Speed Opera House to see a regional production of South Pacific.
unknown:Just kidding.
Gavin:But then I I did think to myself, why uh she turns to me and she says, Why aren't you taking my brother? And I'm like, Oh, right. I mean, why am I not taking your brother? Uh well, he's so then it started a discussion of like he needs to go, and he's like, No, I'll go to the next one. You know, you know, shows because you know shows are things that drive me crazy. And so he refused to go, but he said he would go to the next one, which is some brand new musical about a miserable family in Scotland. And I'm like, well, you should probably go see South Pacific, not a new show. But anyway, I will be forced feeding culture to both of my kids, and consequently, I will retain my status as being a better person than you. Good. As America's finest news source, I wanted to make sure that you knew about a couple of things that are worthy of discussion. First of all, did you know that Miss Maryland just a couple of weeks ago was crowned, and she is a trans queen.
David:Wow. I did not know that. I to be fair, I don't know anything about the like, you know, pageant community. Um, but that's amazing.
Gavin:Yeah, she's also the bill of the ball at the Washington, D.C. Pride Parade. So that's just all badass. Uh, I mean, how so many different discussions going on in different parts of this country, huh? I mean, good for you, Miss Maryland. But then also, did you know Disney beat DeSantis? Do you know about this?
David:Yes. I love I love this petty back and forth between Disney World and DeSantis. I, yeah, I fucking eating up all the drama.
Gavin:Well, can you explain to me then? Because apparently you are uh you are up on the gay news, but I don't entirely understand. I think Disney essentially beat DeSantis at his own game. Like he appointed this whole district council to the Disney World lands, and they were gonna basically pull a bunch of hijinks and not let Disney do anything. But essentially, they have now approved a plan that has a 50, 15-year, 60 quadrillion dollar plan to have a fifth new park. I'm sure all the Disney freaks out there already know this. Uh, they also have to donate land to infrastructure and they have to give$10 million to affordable housing in Central Florida, which I think is actually very cool. But I'm assuming, even though like the headline was not Disney beats DeSantis, but I feel like Disney won, right?
David:You think? But yes, but it was also one of those things where in the beginning, when this drama happened, it was like, you DeSantis, do you think that you're gonna think that Disney is going to even if you law if Disney picked up and left Florida, what's left is alligators and meth. End of list. Yes. There's nothing else left in Porto. So you were never gonna win this. And I listen, I don't I don't get it, but like, yeah.
Gavin:Also, a solid, shall we say, 69% of his voters are undoubtedly huge Disney freaks, too. So they're gonna be if it's gonna be you against Mickey, guess what, Ronnie D, you're going down.
David:Yeah. So those poor people want to buy a leather MM's jacket from the store. So you're not gonna get it.
Gavin:Listen, you can't stand in the way of capitalism or Disney. So get the fuck out of the way, DeSantis. You know what you can stand in the way of, though? Our top three list. Gatriarchs, top three list, three, two, one. Yes, our top three lists. This week, the topic was the top three careers you don't want your kids to do. So, being my list, I'm gonna give you uh what my top three are, okay? Number three, I've probably talked about my uh not love of basketball in the previously because I'm tall and everybody told me in my life I was supposed to be a basketball player. So basically, I'm desperate that my children do not become basketball players. I don't think I'm too worried about it. In fact, I'm not, but please don't be a basketball player so that I just have to go eat crow for the rest of my life, right? Number two, finance bros. Now, I want my kids to be rich. Six five, blue eyes. I want my kids to be rich so that they can take care of me and change my diapers when I'm old. But please just don't be like a finance bro, because like I don't know. I would just be apologizing for them for the rest of my life, you know? And it's about me.
David:Yeah, but you'd be apologizing uh for them on your phone. Well, there is that.
Gavin:Do you know what I mean? I don't know. I there are certain I listen, I have no standards or actual principles whatsoever. I can't wait for that to be taken out of context someday. But I I I I just I don't think that I can apologize for my kids being finance bros for the rest of their lives ever. So that's number two. Number one, don't be a clown. Like a literal clown. Please literal clown. Please clown around for your entire life, but just I don't know. I would, I would just, the world needs clowns, but just don't be my kids.
David:You know what it is? The the saddest part about being just period, period. Is is is is the is the is the walk on the parking lot from your from your Nissan Ultima into the tent with your with your unicycle over your shoulder. That that like that 100-yard walk is just the sadest. So much sad about it.
Gavin:So much sad about it. And you know what? If there are clowns out there, particularly gay clowns, particularly gay clowns who are fathers, we would love to hear from you and explain to us why your career path is one we should aspire to. But for right now, I'm gonna stick to this. I I I kind of hope my kids are not clowns.
David:What about you, David? So, and number three, press agents. Because I feel like to be a good press agent, you've got to just totally disregard the truth. And there's just something about like spinning everything, everything is spun, so you don't know what authenticity, man. I I hope my kids are at least authentic. Even if they're fucking assholes, I hope they're authentically assholes. Yeah, that's true. Finance. Number three, yeah as long as they're yeah, totally authentic. Yeah. Uh number three, press agent. Number two, deep sea tech diver. Have you seen the TikTok about the divers who were like in the oil pipeline under the water and got stuck? Oh my god, that's the worst. That's no. They were in a tiny little thing. No, they're they're diving. So, and then all the lights are gone. No, and they're having to crawl through this underwater tunnel, and then they got stuck, and then they had to go backwards, but they couldn't turn around. So they had to like back up, and one guy broke his leg. It was it is the most terrifying video I've ever seen in my entire life. There's not video of it, but they like did an animation of what happened. Anyway, deep sea tech diver. No way, no, thank you.
Gavin:No, I that's now my number two. Clown is still number one for me. Yep. They can be basketball players now, that's fine.
David:And number one, I don't want them to be a therapist. Here's why. A, those who can't teach. So you're gonna be fucked up if you're a therapist, right? But also, I feel like there's no way, and maybe if you're a therapist out there, please like write in and tell us if I'm wrong. Particularly, there's no way you can hear such trauma and such angst and such darkness and not have it pop up in your head later. And I just don't want them to have like surrounded by complicated, yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's I I just maybe I'm simpli oversimplifying this, but it just feels like it would be hard to be a therapist. And I'm not talking about like Billy broke up with me kind of therapist. I'm talking about like deep things that need to be worked on. Yeah, thanks.
Gavin:We want you to still be fun, and it's hard to be fun when you're like listening to that shit all the time. Okay. Um agreed. And I think I want to make mine a top six list um going forward. Anyway, what should be next week's top three, which you've already alluded to in this episode?
David:So, top three when we're talking about like iPads and screen time. I want to do our top three list of things do as I say, not as I do. Nice.
Gavin:Our guest today is, well, truly demeaning himself once again. I mean, we have had actors, directors, producers, doctors, etc., but I don't believe we've ever had an Emmy nominated and Gracie Award-winning producer. Spencer McNaughton is an, well, an award-winning journalist who has been working for outlets such as NBC News and Rolling Stone and The Wall Street Journal. And now he is joining America's greatest news source, Gatriarchs. Welcome, Spencer. Thank you. Are you gonna do this?
David:This on the top of your resume now, just like bump those down a little bit.
Gavin:It better be. Everything else gets deleted.
David:We would appreciate it. You should check your guest release. It actually says that in there. So uh that's uh so uh Spencer, you're Canadian.
Gavin:Is Canada gayer than the United States?
SPEAKER_01:Is Canada gayer? I would argue Canada is gayer than the United States. People don't realize how much more progressive Canada is than the US, you know? Um, and it's from laws, it's politics, it's healthcare, it's social issues, you know. Um, from an ideological perspective, even like our conservative party, I would say is almost closer ideologically to the Democratic Party here, right? Oh boy. Um, you know, obviously I'm a journalist, I don't get involved in politics, but from that perspective, we are considerably more left than uh the United States, which I would argue makes us quite a bit gayer.
Gavin:Yeah. Well said. Well said. We totally agree. So you are a journalist, and we came to into each other's orbit by fairly unconventional means, just in the sense of you read a press release that I wrote, which I was very proud of, and you reached out. And you are not a dad, but I think you have a lot of perspective on, frankly, parenting and how to raise good families and and you know spreading truth and democracy, frankly. But I'm curious, do you hope to be a dad someday?
David:Oh, that's a tough question. We're hard-hitting here. We're the hard-hittling journalists and the tables of turns journalists.
SPEAKER_01:You kind of just, you know, you just met Barbara Walters on me. I didn't expect that. Yeah. Um, no, uh, you know, I think yes, but I'm not sure. It's always, I've always imagined myself growing up as having kids at some point. You know, I'm 33 now. My parents had me later at 42, 43 kind of thing. So I've always had that timeline in mind that it would be early 40s if I were to do it. Um, there's so much more I selfishly want to do first. So a lot of my, you know, especially straight friends, you know, back home in Canada are already, you know, 1.2 kids deep, right? Um, I am nowhere near that and I don't see it for at least, you know, seven to ten years, I'd say. But gun to my head, I'd say, yes, I will be a dad at some point in my life.
David:But we don't have that biological kind of like countdown happening for us. So we conceivably could do it later in life without any sort of thought to quality of our biological content, which makes us, you know, maybe you would have been a dad by now if you had to do it biologically.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but but oh yeah, there's way fewer pressures. It's I mean, that's the I mean, there's a lot of shitty parts about being gay, obviously.
David:Literally, yeah. Yeah.
Gavin:Scowl, just scowl. Take it, take an awkward sip of your Starbucks. So, all right, so you deal with an awful lot of serious matters. In fact, I think you might be one of the most serious guests we've ever had. But so here's your opportunity to just let, you know, let your hair down and um put on slap on some. Lipstick and tell us when has humor caught you off guard while diving into serious journalistic topics.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, humor catches me off guard. I'm glad you said let your hair down because I got a hair transplant in December.
David:Wait, did you do like quite a turkey for like$3,000 version of it?
SPEAKER_01:I wrote the story called I Went to Turkey to get the$3,500 hair transplant, and it's in Business Insider. So feel free to read and look at me.
David:I am going to read this immediately after this interview because I am on Turkey hair transplant TikTok for some reason, and it fascinates me. You have spent a thing.
SPEAKER_01:Buy your ticket to Turkish hairlines, go to Hair Stan Bowl and call it a day.
David:I had to.
Gavin:I fucking love that. I was gonna ask about this later, and I didn't know if it was gonna be a touchy topic at all, but you do put it out there pretty pretty blatantly. So right on. And the hair looks great. So wait, it is actually wait, wait, you've distracted us now. It is growing in. You've got to transplant exactly now.
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, if you caught me in November of 2023, nothing here, total comb over here. This is all new. I still have a bald spot back here. I knew they said transparently I have to go for a second one, but uh no, this is all new hair, and I'm not gonna lie, I'm loving it. Looking in the mirror, it's like a renaissance every day in a good way. Nice.
David:I mean, and just tangled, just fucking tangled. She's just leaning her hair out the window, hoping a prince will climb up. Call me Rapunzel. Yes.
Gavin:All right. So tell us about some crazy funny shit while you've been uh um reporting over the last couple of years.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, crazy funny shit is every single day. I mean, I've worked for Nickelodeon for 60 minutes for the Wall Street Journal, mainly video. So I travel and I fly to different places to actually meet and spend time with the characters and and film them on video. So, you know, I've been in the room with, you know, a group of tweens fighting against banned books in Pennsylvania. I've embedded with the Ku Klux Klan for two weeks. I've been with, you know, diabetics who are buying illegal insulin off of Facebook, you know. So every week you're meeting completely, completely different people. And I wish I had more funny stories to tell. It's more just the I will say one thing I think America does way better is you guys are amazing characters and you guys are TV ready. Canada, we're kind of boring and we're a lot more skeptical. Like a journalist calls and says, Can I come into your home and film with you for a week? And everyone's like, fuck off. No, right? Here in the US, everyone's ready for those 15 minutes and everywhere. You're all ready for it. Yep. It takes Americans like 5.1 seconds to be comfortable in front of the camera. I'm always actually amazed by how quickly y'all are ready to kind of go for it. And it's inspiring too. It's like there's such an element of just, you know, um, you know, releasing inhibitions and just going for it, which I actually admire and like about American culture.
David:Not only are you meeting these like individual characters that are like totally like just absolutely different, but also like their the world that they come from, like the the world that these teens or the you know, the the clans men, like you're talking about just like the most different people, but also their families, their the homes, like what they wear. It's gotta be just like landing on a different planet every time you interview these people.
SPEAKER_01:It is landing on a different planet. And that's what I love about being a journalist is that you know, you wind up meeting completely different people that you'd never ever meet, ever in your entire life. And you get very unique access inside their homes. And it's all trust building, you know. Yeah, journalism is really, you know, if you're a good journalist, you have to have impeccable interpersonal skills, right? You have to build trust with people, you know, especially as a gay man, you know, knocking on people's doors who hate you inherently. Do you know what I mean? How do you approach something like that? It's always a different strategy every single time, but at the same time, you can't be over strategical because people can sniff that out, right? You have to come at it with humanity, compassion, and then skepticism. So finding that balance and that sweet spot is super tricky and it's always case by case.
David:That's gonna be so hard. Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry, Gavin. I was just thinking when you were saying knocking on somebody's door who hates you, I was imagining myself, and I know you said like you're a journalist, so you're not political, but like that is you can't totally separate your point of view on the world if you argue with that as political. So having to kind of interview somebody who, like you said, maybe hates you, but still focused on like I'm trying to tell their story. I I don't know, how do you do it without just wanting to slap them in the mouth?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, that's really hard. I mean, you know, I I'm not political, but I can confidently say the Ku Klux Klan is an abhorrent, disgraceful, disgusting organization that has nothing to do with politics for obvious reasons, right? Um, but you know, to actually expose hate, to investigate, you know, evil is something I believe, and people would disagree with me in the journalism space, is something we need to keep doing. The more exposure we can have of these groups, the more we learn about them, and the more we can be the proper checks that we need to be on them, sort of thing, right? So, you know, um uh while I might internally hate them, that doesn't mean I change my game plan. I still ask incisive questions. I ask them tough questions, just as I would somebody who I agree with. If I'm talking to an LGBTQ advocate, you still ask those advocates tough questions, you know? There's a science to journalism. And it it is, I guess, you know, they say that, you know, doctors are able to turn off their pain when they're delivering the news of cancer to, you know, a patient, sort of thing. I think there's a bit of that that goes on in journalism too, where you're able to compartmentalize and just focus on the science of the questions rather than the actual kind of person you're talking to and how that kind of um relates to how you feel about what they think. Yeah.
Gavin:So at the end of the day, when you're like relaxing with your pina collada and you've just been on site with whomever, from trans tweens to the KKK, do you have that moment of reflection thinking, wow, we're all just humans and why can't we all just get along? Or do you find that no, no, there are such diametrically opposed viewpoints. How on earth can we all survive on the same planet together?
SPEAKER_01:Well, first it's a frozen margarita. Um there it is. Salt or no salt. Uh salt and lime, extra limes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like two. I don't think one gets the job done. If you're going to have an hour, do two. Two is the perfect, because then I do three, I'm hungover. If I do two, I'm nicely buzzed. And if I do one, I'm like, what the hell was the point of that? You know? Well, good to know. These are pointless calories. Exactly, exactly. Um, I, you know, I believe there's so much, you know, tension and disagreement and kind of news fatigue right now. And that's one reason I'm launching on closeted media, right? Because I think, especially in the US, right? Especially in the US, the way news, especially cable news's approach, is like it's ESPN. Like if I want to watch sports, I'll go to the sports networks, you know? But I don't want, you know, to learn about whether or not trans women should compete in sports by listening to a Republican and a Democrat fight about it, who know nothing about the biology or the physiological elements that should go into that discussion. It's extremely nuanced when we talk about LGBTQ storytelling. And the current state of the mainstream media ecosystem is really just, you know, political people with agendas who don't know enough, talking about really complex, really nuanced topics about communities that are extremely marginalized right now in society. And I think that's an despicable approach to how the news is going about things right now when it comes to our community.
Gavin:So tell us about uncloseted media, which is largely the reason you're here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So unclosed media. So yeah, I've worked in, you know, mainstream media for a decade, you know, um, was staff at 60 Minutes at the Wall Street Journal, at Nickelodeon News, right? And then um, I've always felt that there's a huge, you know, gap in LGBTQ storytelling from a journalistic perspective. You know, there's lots of huge advocacy organizations, advocacy organizations, HRC, GLAD, um, and you know, the mainstream media will do one-offs here and there of LGBTQ stories, but it's not enough, right? And then the queer media doesn't have the resources to actually tell rigorous journalistic stories right now because it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. The truth is, an intern who can whip up a listicle about the 10 hottest twinks in Manhattan in 30 minutes is gonna have that story get six times the clicks as a three-month-long investigation sometimes. It sucks, but that's just the nature of the beast right now. And that's why, you know, I've decided this has to be uh, you know, uh a model, uncloseted media that is rooted in philanthropy. So we're working through a fiscal sponsor, which means we're essentially working off a 501c3 model, right? Because in this media ecosystem, an LGBTQ investigative publication wouldn't survive from, you know, just you know, profit, right? So that's kind of the model we're working off of. And it's really to fill a gap, right? To fill a gap in the storytelling that doesn't exist right now because they're the America's anti-LGBTQ ecosystem is extremely well funded, extremely powerful, and actually gets shit done. Like there are over 500 anti-LGBTQ bills in state legislatures right now, 75 passed into law right now, and it's just kind of like casually happening, you know? Um and we're not being the watchdogs that we need to be. There's so much low-hanging fruit. So yeah.
David:And you know what Gavin is actually really good at filling the gap, um, especially in his teen years. But I I wonder if what the root of what I think is the problem, and now what you're saying is the solution of this like media ecosystem is is the fact that it is a for-profit. These are these are business ventures. These are these are this capitalism. This is this is not a state run, this is not uh not for profit, this is not for the good of the world. This is a entertainment source. And that because of the funding is maybe why it needs to be sensational and not very deep, because it needs to get the clicks to pay the bills versus something like what you're doing, which seems to be like we're trying to like disassociate ourselves from the financial part of it so we don't feel so beholden to the wow of it all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's a bit of both. I think obviously ratings are everything. That's how you make money. It's a for-profit industry in most cases. But then at the same time, I think it's a lot of the time older executives, older editors who still kind of consider LGBTQ storytelling as niche. And it's kind of like, guys, it's not niche anymore, you know? No. Gen Z, I think it's like one quarter or even more identify as LGBTQ. I would argue there's more allies than ever before. Like Gen Z and Gen Alpha, we're gonna look back a hundred years from now and remember this generation as the group that said, fuck this, we've had enough, you know? And I also think that, you know, uh editors and executives are misinterpreting the desire and thirst for this coverage, right? Like this younger generation is grew up on their smartphones, right? And they're in an unprecedented world of misinformation. So the desire to just have straight no chaser, rigorous journalism, I think is is more than ever because people can spot a fake because they grew up with it on the feed, left, right, and center, all day long, right? They want something that's straight up classic journalism, and we have moved away from that, I'd say, in the last few years.
Gavin:That's the most optimistic thing I've ever heard about journalism right now. I sure as shit hope you're right. That's great. Yeah. Go ahead, Daniel.
David:How do you uh one of the things I'm proudest of for myself, I think growing up, having grown up with a the first generation to grow up with a computer in the house and watching the internet kind of bloom is like I got really good at spotting the bullshit, right? Like the email scams that you know maybe our parents fall for, um, the like, why is this meme? Being able to like have really good critical thinking skills. And I really wonder like, how do we instill that in our kids? Like not only as gay parents, just as parents, like, how do I, with a kid growing up with a smartphone, instill critical thinking and good uh being able to spot uh misinformation in a world where they just grew up with just all of this shit coming at them? David, this is my favorite question you've ever asked.
Gavin:It's also this is everything I live for. So I promise I'll make you happy with dick jokes and port authority and everything after this, okay? Wait for that, Spencer. Anyway, please, back to critical thinking.
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, I think that's 100% right. I mean, to to dads, to parents, I've always said, you know, the number if I were a policymaker in the United States specifically, the number one thing I do is mandate media literacy programs at an extremely, extremely young age, like grade one, kindergarten, earlier than that, right? We have an uh a population that does not know the difference of news gathering from how the New York Times does it versus Fox News does it versus Breitbart versus the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post. There are different standards, and there are really, really important things to understand about how and why those standards differ. And I don't think the majority of the American population understands that, right? Because it's just in these echo chambers of left, right, good, bad, my team, your team, cool, not cool, that kind of thing. Yeah. Right. And I think if we had the rules, there is a science to journalism. I always say that. People joke, I got a master's in science of journalism. They're like, ha ha ha ha. And it's like, no, there's like a methodology to this practice, to this profession, right? And if you stick to that methodology, you can get to the truth, right? But you know, people don't get that. And it it takes a high degree of media literacy as well, which is why I think introducing that when you're super, super young to kids is critical to them being really well-informed citizens who can critically think, but also find the information to make a well-informed opinion or decision.
David:Yeah, because I just feel like it's automatic for me, where like when I see, I'll see like a TikTok of uh, you know, found footage of somebody doing something, and I can immediately, without even having to watch more than three seconds, know that this is a setup. This is two actors who have done this. Um, Gavin was saying last week his daughter informed him that 50% of the US population was homeless. And Gavin was like, where did you learn that?
Gavin:Thank goodness she giggled as she started to say TikTok.
David:And I'm like, okay. Media literacy is such a great phrase that I want to start using and pretend that I came up with it.
Gavin:I I completely agree. And I love your formula there, Spencer, of just being like, let's just in institute this nice and early. Kindergarten, love it. Speaking, speaking of kindergarten and gen alpha and media literacy and critical thinking, you worked at Nickelodeon.
SPEAKER_01:I sure did.
Gavin:So I I am sure that is the Venn diagram of all of those things coming together. And I just want to know, was it a funny place to work?
SPEAKER_01:Um, you know what? Nickelodeon was uh an interesting place to work. I'll say that. Um, you know, like any organization, it has, you know, its its things, right? Um, but it was freaking hilarious sometimes. I mean, we did I did a profile on Maxwell Frost, the first ever Gen Z congressman, right? And I remember going to a bar in Florida when we did the profile, and this was a few weeks before he got elected with his campaign manager at the time, and having a whiskey with the campaign manager and says, please, if Maxwell Frost gets elected, say you will let us slime him in front of the Capitol.
SPEAKER_04:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:And he said yes, and he got elected, and we slimed it in front of the Capitol. Yeah, absolutely iconic, and honestly, one of the best moments of my life. Because slyming someone is no joke. It is extremely stressful. There's all these like internal rules at Nickelodeon that you have to follow. I think the slime was like brought in from LA. Like, even as the producer, like, I don't know the ingredients. You're not allowed to use secret information and the logistics, the security, making sure a congressman doesn't slip on the slime because that would be really bad, right?
Gavin:Like, wait, and Nickelodeon has those those um safety points in there. It's not that Congress said you can you can't.
SPEAKER_01:No, they were actually pretty chill. Okay. It was, it was, it's just like the idea of liability from the slime perspective, you know? Um so that was, you know, out of all the very serious pieces I've done, that's one of the proudest pieces I've ever done because logistically it was such a shit show organizing and getting to the finish line. But it turned out great.
Gavin:Yeah. And have you been slimed?
SPEAKER_01:Uh-mm. No, sliming someone is an honor, right? And the other thing I found out is you can only slime someone. It's like a privilege to get slime. So you can't like do it out of meanness, which I think is a very nice cute policy.
David:We're talking about green slime?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. The Nickelodeon classic.
David:Not boy slime. Got it. Okay. Yeah, no. It's so funny how like green slime somehow has lasted the generations. Where like green slime started, what, like the late 80s or whatever? Or the early mid 80s. Mid for sure. I I watched it. It's like you can't do that on television.
Gavin:You can't do that on television.
David:Yeah, no, totally.
Gavin:Yeah. Um, wait a minute. So uh, but you were you were in a bar drinking with the congressman to be, and in his moment manager. With his campaign manager, okay, got it, got it, got it. And still there were promises being made over whiskey about Nickelodeon. That's uh that all tracks, frankly.
SPEAKER_01:Frankly. That all tracks, yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Orlando bar having a whiskey, and and um, I felt like I was a you know, businessman negotiator kind of thing. So it felt great.
David:So speaking of hard news, have you ever been a part of like one of like the famous like newsreel blooper things where like shit goes wrong and it just becomes viral?
Gavin:Because I I want you to know I did a deep dive on Spencer McNaughton throughout all of the Google, and there was a lot to be found there, but I could not find a damn blooper. And I'm like, please let Spencer be a blooper real person.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm I don't think I have a blooper, but um I'm debating on whether or not I'll say it. I will say it. Um, so we were doing a story, we were in I've done a lot of work in the far-right extremism space as well. So not just the Ku Klux Land. We've done a lot of investigations at 60 minutes into the Michigan militia, the Boogaloo Boys, Adam Waffin, which is a terrorist organization. And I was trying to get in touch with uh, I believe it was, I actually can't remember the actual name. So I was trying to get in touch with kind of a prominent white supremacist, and I guess he found out. And then he essentially trolled me and uh took a cutout of my head, which is very big, and I had less hair then, and I was very insecure about it. Remember the hair transplant. And he did a cutout of my head and photoshopped 12 of them into an egg carton, and then it went viral on Twitter. And we had to get like security involved, cybersecurity, all that kind of thing, and it was a complete shit show. So I have been bullied, but I'm not in the bloopers.
David:But also, you've become like a craft. He was like, it's a craft project of his.
SPEAKER_01:My friends from home literally wanted to frame it on their walls, like they were crying with laughter. I mean, it really was pretty good art. I mean, he's a disgusting person for what he believes, but I guess he's good at clip art.
David:Yeah. It's gotta be such a weird reach out to you. Like, you're reaching out to a white supremacist. She's like, hey girl, just seeing if you want to hang out, talk a little bit about like I cannot imagine how those cold calls or cold emails work.
Gavin:Are they all just horrors for media attention? Like you were insinuating before.
SPEAKER_01:The the white supremacists. Yes. No, no. That getting access to that is extremely hard. There were a lot of steps, it takes a lot of time. It's it's trust building too, you know? Um and yeah, I won't go into all the kind of different various ways that we did that, but there it's it's not easy. But you can never lie. One thing with with journalism is if you're a good journalist, you can never lie, right? So you have to present what you're doing, who you are. And I've always found, regardless of who you're going after, the more transparency, the better. Like I found with some people who are clearly homophobic, me being like, hey, you know, you can look me up. Clearly, you know, you're gonna find out I'm gay. You're gonna find out I do a lot of LGBTQ storytelling. We have differences of opinion. I am still a journalist who approaches stories via the science of journalism, and I will do my best to give you a fair kind of story. So that I found I find hyper transparency almost always yields reward.
Gavin:So, of the many elements of your life that I want to touch on before we're done here is that you um s please correct me if I get this wrong. You're the you founded the LGBTQ plus department? Within the NYU journalism school, is that right? How how do you say it?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I um so I edit this out, David.
Gavin:Great. Edit it out. I fucked up. Keep it in.
SPEAKER_01:Keep it in. Um no, no. I just came up with a course called covering a beat through the LGBTQ lens, pitched it to NYU. They recognized there was, I guess, you know, they thought they wanted the course, they greenlit it, and then uh this summer will be my fourth year teaching it, which is super cool. And it's always really it's the best students, they're hungry, they're interested. People who take that course are typically very interested in the topic. So you get more passionate students, I would say. And yeah, it's been four years, and and that's and I've eight interns, and seven are from NYU right now for uncloseted media. So it's been like school's been great to me right back.
Gavin:You're you are grooming journalists at NYU. There you go. Give us just one little taste of what has been the most interesting part of why you feel like you need to teach the um science of journalism through an LGBTQ plus lens.
SPEAKER_01:Well, because I don't think we're covering the LGBTQ community right. I think, you know, uh there was even a report about, I think, the New York Times, and it was such a low, like the number of trans stories they had that included the voice of at least one trans person was very low, right? So including representation, including, you know, data-driven stories is really important. But then also for the students that I teach, you know, a lot of them are queer themselves, you know, uh, you know, they're in Manhattan, they're Gen Z, this kind of thing, explaining the difference between LGBTQ advocacy and journalism. And there are huge differences there, right? Like I care about the LGBTQ community. Obviously, I'm an advocate for the community, but what I'm doing with uncloseted media is not advocacy, it's journalism, right? So if we, you know, have a story that's going to critique our community or, you know, critique something that may ostensibly look like an advocacy organization, that's a story for us, right? It's not just, you know, investigating the hate groups against our community, if that makes sense.
David:I I so appreciate you and the people who keep trying because I feel like the part of me that wants to present data to an opposing view is dead. Because I've seen it not work in my own personal life where it's just like, well, actually, what you said is not true, and here's some data to support that. That doesn't matter to to to my own biased group of people that I'm talking about. And so I so appreciate people who are still fighting the like like I'm not comparing you to Rachel Mado, but like you people like Mata who are just like, I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep putting it out there, truth and data, even if it's not working, or maybe it is, and maybe we don't know. And so for your your part of it, I I very much appreciate it because I I still hope for that. I still hope that uh truth and data and journalism matters. Um, I think that that that hopeful part of me has died a little bit. Um do you still have hope and optimism?
SPEAKER_01:I I agree I agree with you a lot. I think there's a segment of the American population, it's probably a big segment in the millions, who you're just never gonna change. They're just not gonna believe it. It's it's impossible. Whatever you say, it doesn't matter. They are not gonna believe data-driven stories. But I do think there's, you know, a movable middle. Somebody calls this the movable middle, a friend of mine. And those are center right, center left, center, center people, right? Who are reasonable people, who aren't inherently homophobic or transphobic, but they just don't have access to this kind of storytime, to this information to understand what's happening to our community right now. So that's another reason I want to partner with mainstream publications for uncloseted media, because it's like, how do you get to you know a Midwestern mom in Kansas who's not inherently anti-LGBTQ, but hasn't read anything. So she doesn't understand the situation, right? So a key part of our audience development strategy is actually getting to those people.
David:Yeah, I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:I so appreciate it.
Gavin:So I'm sure that you know that um you're always the best parent before you become a parent. So assuming that we look very much forward to you uh being a dad someday and coming on many times to Gatriarchs, America's finest news source, um, to share your um adventures. But looking forward to potential parenthood, tell us what you think will be the best part of parenting and the worst part of parenting, which is always our last question.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god. Um my god. That's we stumped the journalist. You definitely did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I mean, I see my friends who are having kids and your life actually changes. It's the bit, I think it's the biggest decision in your entire life, hands down, you will ever make to have kids or not to have kids. And I think some people just do it. They're like, yeah, time to have a baby. Let's go. And I do not underestimate that. My mom always says, you know, you're as happy as your saddest child.
unknown:And I'm like, whoa.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my God, that's so true.
David:Yeah, so true.
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, that scares the shit out of me. Um, and also just the amount I like doing my thing. I like, you know, going to get two frozen margaritas with my boyfriend at a happy hour, right? I like going to the gym. I like having time to just chill. And I see that time being completely stripped away from friends, especially in the early years, kind of thing. So that really scares me. Um, but then also I see like genuine, you know, unconditional love and obsession and you know, that kind of thing, where it's like you have brought an actual human into the world. You're doing something right, you know? So that is heartwarming, obviously. And it's very cool. I think it's cool to see mini me's of you grow up and you get to, you know, teach the media literacy.
Gavin:Yes. Spencer. Yes. Thank you for demeaning yourself and coming on to Gatriarch. Uh, it it you bring a lot of perspective. You will remind us of the good and the bad out there. Please keep fighting the good fight. And good luck with uncloseted media. When do we get to find you and where will we do that? How can we help uncloseted media today?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So, how you can help is if anyone would like to donate, it is 100% tax deductible through my fiscal sponsor, Resource Impact. Just reach out to me directly. You can donate uh via an easy link or donor advise fund, a wire transfer, a mail check. Anyway, we are in a deep fundraising stage right now. So, any of your listeners who have the means and are interesting, interested, find me on LinkedIn, DM me. I'm all over the place. So just get to me and I will help you donate. Trust me.
David:Um, and he's got shirtless photos on Instagram. So you get it's it's like a win-win, okay? Everyone wins.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like the journalism and and scroll down for a shirtless pick. They're there.
David:Come come come for the shirtless pick, stay for the journalism. Correct. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:You get a little bit above. Um and uh and then the other thing is get ready uh, because we are officially launching the week of Labor Day, about two months ahead of the presidential election. So, you know, uh, once we launch, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. We're gonna live on Substack, share the content, and yeah, just you know, and enjoy the content as well. Enjoy the journalism. It's gonna be hopefully really important work. We have about 20 stories in development.
Gavin:We cannot wait to enjoy your journalism. Thank you, Spencer. Thank you, Spencer.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, guys.
Gavin:So try not to roll your eyes. Oh, geez. I'm watching you. I'm watching you. Try not to roll your eyes as I say my something great this week is NPR. Because they had an entire, like a three-minute segment on sunscreen and skin influencers. And they talk about the trend that for some reason on TikTok, there are people out there who are saying that sunscreen is actually bad for you, that there's chemicals in the lotion, so you might as well not put on sunscreen. And my daughter is completely being influenced by it, and she is absolutely in that algorithm of being like, uh, be obsessed with the UV rays uh because there's measuring the UV index, and she's like, I can go get a tan today. And I'm like, girl, you have my skin, you do not want to be tanning ever. And um, so I shared with her uh the NPR episode. She actually listened to it. I quizzed her on like the last few sentences of it, and I said, What was your takeaway? And she said that I probably shouldn't listen to TikTok skin influencers.
David:I'm like, Hey, that's that's a big needle to move with a with a preteen. You are something great. What about wow? Yeah, I definitely rolled my eyes. I strained my eye muscles by the roll. Um, so this week, my something great, um, I had the stupid idea to bring my four-year-old and two-year-old to their first movie theater movie. Oh, yeah. Because I was like, I wanted to see Inside Out too. Um, uh a friend of a friend wrote it and I was really excited about it. And I was like, you know what? Why don't we try? Why don't we just try? The four-year-old had seen Paw Patrol one time in the movie theater and he did great. So I was like, he'll be fine. The two-year-old, ugh, I don't know. Should we do it? Let's just try it. What's the worst that can happen? And of course, in my brain, I was like, a lot, a lot of shitty things.
Gavin:A lot. Yes, yes.
David:When I tell you that it was like a magical experience, not only is the movie great, the movie is great, like it's it's uh, you know, I'm biased, but the movie's written beautifully, but it's just it's like a really fun way to kind of talk about feelings and all that kind of stuff. But my kids were solid. Now, this is they had a giant bowl of popcorn in front of them. Sure. They were in these like reclining chairs, but like the two-year-old, the last half hour she wanted to crawl on my lap. Other than that, she never spoke, she watched the movie the whole time. It was like the exactly the experience I wanted. And I was like, what the fuck happened today? But anyway, it was great. And I remember thinking, this is great. Who says parenting is hard? Not me.
Gavin:Yeah, when they become more of a screen addict and their attention span dwindles to 15 minutes, you're gonna be like, remember that one time?
David:We saw one movie one time and it was something great. And that is our show. If you have any comment, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
Gavin:Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFM VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at Gavin Lodge in a movie theater.
David:Please leave us a glowing eight-star review wherever you get your podcasts.
Gavin:Thanks, and we'll embargo you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.
