58. What No One Tells You About Midlife Relationships | Kellie Resue

Welcome back to the School of Midlife podcast, where we're delving deep into the complexities of relationships during this transformative phase of life. Joined by the insightful life coach Kellie Resue, specializing in relationships, we're exploring the evolving dynamics we encounter with partners, friends, and ourselves in midlife.

🎙️ Prepare to uncover invaluable insights on the importance of nurturing strong social ties as we age. Kellie highlights the vital role these connections play in our overall well-being, likening poor social connections to health risks as significant as smoking and excessive alcohol consumption.

🔍 Let's tackle the topic of marital relationships head-on, dispelling the myth of the "midlife crisis." Instead, Kellie invites us to view midlife as an opportunity for growth and reassessment. Discover practical strategies for couples to reconnect and realign their relationships amidst the changes of this life stage.

Friendships also take center stage as we acknowledge the challenges and unique grief of evolving or ending friendships in midlife. Kellie provides actionable advice on cultivating meaningful, reciprocal friendships that enrich our lives and support our personal growth.

Ready to deepen your understanding of midlife relationships and cultivate truly fulfilling connections? 🌺 Tune in as we navigate the complexities of relationships in midlife, offering guidance on making these years your most fulfilling yet – whether you're reevaluating your marriage, forging new friendships, or strengthening your relationship with yourself. 🎧✨

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Transcript

SPEAKER01: Welcome to the School of Midlife podcast. I'm your host, Laurie Reynoldson. This is the podcast for the midlife woman who's starting to ask herself big life questions like, what do I want? Is it too late for me? And what's my legacy beyond my family and my work? Each week, we're answering these questions and more. At the School of Midlife, we're learning all of the life lessons they didn't teach us in school. And we're figuring out, finally, what it is we want to be when we grow up. Let's make midlife your best life. 

Have you noticed that it feels like the important relationships in your life are all going through a period of transition in midlife? Your marriage, the relationship you have with your kids. In some cases, we're finding that the parent-child roles with our own parents are even reversed. And why is it so damn hard to make friends in midlife? In this episode of the School of Midlife podcast, I'm talking with Kellie Resue, a life coach who focuses on relationships. We're discussing the importance of relationships at all points in our lives, but particularly in midlife. Midlife women are seeking deeper connections, looking for reciprocal partnerships, and learning to trust ourselves more than ever. Which also means we're experiencing the pang and grief of ending relationships that are no longer serving us. In this episode, you'll not only learn how to navigate tough discussions and tips to nurture and grow important relationships, but we're also discussing why it's so important to take advantage of all the opportunities presenting themselves to us in midlife. Talk about making midlife our best life. Let's start by leveling up those important relationships in our lives, including the very most important one, the one we have with ourselves.

Kellie, I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: I'm doing good, Laurie. Thank you. I'm excited about it myself.

SPEAKER_01: Good. Let's just dive in. We're talking about relationships and in particular, how they can be strained or difficult in midlife. And so I thought maybe we would start with a little bit of science. Many studies have shown that strong social ties and a sense of community become increasingly important as we age. In fact, there's one study by Stanford's Center for Longevity, who even knew that was a thing, but they analyzed data from over 300,000 individuals and they found that stronger relationships increase the likelihood of our long-term survival by 50 percent. Here's what's what I found very compelling, though, is the risk of death due to lack of social connection was almost like approximately equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day and consuming excessive alcohol. So that's a lot. So I'm wondering, can you speak just generally about the role that relationships play in our overall well-being and, say, our life satisfaction, particularly in midlife?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I hadn't heard that study. That's amazing and frightening, right? One of the things in mental health specifically that we look for when somebody is struggling is their natural supports and who they are connected to in their life. Just my day-to-day work is about asking people this very question, who are your natural supports? Where do you, who do you have or what do you do when you have a challenge or who even do you contact when you are celebrating something and being able to have those connections and what's in the realm of relationships. It's definitely not just about the opposite sex or somebody that you're romantically involved with. Right. I think that's why women at midlife. are gravitating so much together because they're finding this renewed sense of needing connection. And also, generally speaking, they might have more time and even more mental and physical capacity to get into those connections. For a lot of women, not all, but for some, they spent so much of their life giving to their children, taking to their activities, doing a myriad of things. And so at midlife, they're like searching for more. They want more meaningful conversations. Midlife women are not interested. And even honestly, midlife men are not interested in those surface conversations anymore. That's been there, done that. I don't need to break the ice, so to speak. They really like to get into the nitty gritty more. And I think that's because we're looking for. a deeper connections, deeper purpose to how we see ourselves and how we see ourselves as relating to the world and the people in the world. So I think that's why there's a lot of questioning in midlife. And then as far as that study goes, the other thing that I thought of while you were reading it is in substance abuse, when people have substance abuse challenges, the anecdote to those things is connection. And yeah. So if you think about why some, again, this is general, like you said at the beginning. So I just want to reiterate that because these subjects are so nuanced. when you're thinking about somebody who is using any sort of substance that that they're using to an extreme where it's becoming a problem that is somebody who is like trying to figure something out and oftentimes they don't have other connections other relationships they're trying to belong somewhere or they're trying to cover up a pain from the people even that they belong to. So being able to have connection, this is why AA is so important. If you think about an AA meeting, you're meeting with like-minded people. If you go into any kind of recovery program, there's often going to be a group therapy and This allows people to feel like they're not alone. And that's what connection does, right? It helps you to not feel alone in whatever you're dealing with. And for midlife people, women in particular, goodness, we need them. I can't tell you how many times I hear from women that they feel like they're going crazy. Yeah. Yeah, because of all the things that they're feeling and experiencing and really noticing, like it's this interesting new awareness that happens in midlife. And it's not all about hormones. Certainly that plays a part, but it's also very much about having the capacity then at midlife to really look at your environment and become aware of the relationships that are working and not working, of the relationship with yourself and how that's working and not working. So it's a mixed bag of things for sure in midlife.

SPEAKER_01: No question. You mentioned natural supports. When you bring that up with the clients that you're working with, do they typically, are they able to identify those supports or individuals? And in particular, I thought it was interesting that you called out celebration and Because I think so often we think that it's important to have the support around us when things are going poorly or there's been a big loss or a big change. Women in particular seem to think that they can take all the things and just continue to move forward without even taking time or moments to celebrate. So I'm curious, do people, are they able to identify those natural supports pretty easily? And do they use them?

SPEAKER_00: So yes and no. Yes, some people are, but usually I have to prompt them with, this could be a neighbor, this could be, who do you think about when you have a problem or you just accomplished something big, who would you call? Sometimes people aren't aware that they have natural supports and they're just not thinking about them as a support. And then Other times, they, people actually don't have natural supports. They've isolated themselves for a variety of reasons. And often what I hear is people don't want to reach out to others because they feel like they would be a burden. And then as far as the celebrating goes, I'm so glad you highlighted that because one of the strategies that I use is called counting our wins. And so when I meet with somebody who's struggling, while they're talking to me i'm literally writing a list of all the things that they're telling me sometimes in between the lines that on our good things that are happening right so that at the end of our time together we can refocus on the wins because it's natural there's plenty of science around that our brain gravitates to the negative right that's why the news is so popular that's why Like clickbaits of drama are so popular. So being able to shift our thinking to what's working, to celebrating and having the wins is really awesome. Also, women in particular often don't like to celebrate because we have been, we've been downloaded for generation after generation that if you celebrate something, then you're bragging. or that you're being conceited or that you're being a bitch or that you're being snobby. These terms are so common for women to feel that have grown up in our generation and before. And I think that the younger generation is really getting out of that, thankfully. Um, but it's still there. People, a lot of young women feel like they can't say. things that they've either accomplished or things that they're proud of. Be pliant of the judgment that will come for such accomplishments.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. I think we are conditioned as women to be selfless. And any time that we try to shine a light on what we have achieved or what we've done that's important, even if that it doesn't even have to be like in a job setting, it can be at home and raising good kids. Then somehow we're being braggarts or we are, we're, there's this idea that we're just going to continue to pour into everyone around us and be there and be their cheerleader and never then turn this, turn the light back and shine it on ourselves. I think that is such an important role that coaches play, particularly when they are working with midlife women. I know that I feel, I feel very strongly that one of the primary roles that I play is as a cheerleader, because so often when you talk about counting your wins, sometimes getting through the day in one piece is a win, and that should be celebrated. And so often, so more often than not, we believe that there's this, for some reason, we believe that we can only celebrate big things, big achievements, a new job, a change. We moved to a new city. We published a book. We ran a marathon, but sometimes it's, I got myself to work on time. I nailed my presentation and I had enough time to make it to the lacrosse game and pick up dinner on the way home. And we all had a great day.

SPEAKER_00: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes, um, sometimes an easy win for every single one of my clients is just that they're talking to me because if somebody isn't ready for the help or ready for whatever's next for them, they're going to shut down. So an automatic win is when we're having these conversations because it takes a lot of guts for people to. Show up and say this is challenging for me or I'm thinking about this. So just a mere talking Change is a win. It's an absolute win to ask for help. It's an absolute win to open yourself up. It's an absolute win to Even say I'm struggling. I don't know what why but I'm struggling getting those words out of your mouth and First, that's huge. That's a major part in being ready to take those steps that follow, is being able to speak to it.

SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more. I know that when women show up and they say things like, I'm struggling or I'm stuck, there's a little bit more science that supports this idea that researchers have found that loneliness, like the lack of connection that we were just talking about, but that it has a significant negative impact on both our physical and our mental health. And I'm curious, why do you think that midlife women feel or seem to be particularly vulnerable to feeling like they're struggling or they're stuck or they're isolated or disconnected during this stage of life?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. So my experience personally and professionally, right. Cause we all come to this teaching table of having learned the big lessons. I only speak from expertise for my own experience, but can share what I experienced when I'm working with other women. And that is. For the first time, midlife just happens to be for the majority of a lot of women, the first time that they ever have space to even think about themselves. And so I think it's a couple of things. I think there's some internal factors and some external factors that play into that. One is empty nesting. One is, or the approaching of empty nesting. They're starting to think about what happens when I'm not driving them to soccer, what happens when I'm not planning the senior events for something. They start considering that and just that question of what's next creates this idea of now looking at where I'm at, what I need to do, how are my relationships working and not working. And again, I'm not necessarily speaking about marriage. Anybody can look at the statistics and a lot of women in midlife, a lot of people in midlife are separating for a lot of different reasons. And I always encourage people to, in particular with empty nesting, I think it's important to understand that empty nesting in some ways has a lot of grease components. And before, and just like with any other sort of grief, any kind of major change to wait before you make big decisions. Now, this covers for purposes of this conversation, Laurie, I'm not talking about physical or emotional abuse. I'm just talking about those relationships that one, for whatever reason you have this stirring and then eventually you're like, what? I don't even know who I am. And I don't know who this person is that I'm sharing the bedroom with. So I always encourage people to wait just like you would at any other grief time to wait a good year before you make major decisions and do things like mindfulness work, do things like going to counseling, both individually and marriage counseling, doing things like journaling and really taking the time to figure out what you need. And also I would be remiss if I didn't say, and also. to check the internal stuff that's going on right like where your hormone levels are because All of it is part of it. All of it is part of it. It's not just one thing. And so I think at midlife, people start questioning and looking at the relationships because they have more time to, because they have some internal things going on. And because they're now, because the essential, the essence of the word being in the middle of their life, they're like, Okay, now I've done that, so now what am I going to do? And so that brings up a lot of questions, just that question alone, whether it has nothing to, could have had nothing to do with relationships, but that question alone is what's next, brings up a whole bunch of variables in somebody's life.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. You mentioned, because you mentioned separation in midlife, one of the most listened to and downloaded episodes from the School of Midlife podcast was, I think it was episode five, talking about gray divorce, which is divorce that happens over the age of 50, why midlife women have affairs and some more. Some of the listeners may not have listened to that yet. So it's a spicy one worth a listen. I will drop a click to that in the show notes if you want to go back and take a listen to that. But so since we're talking about women working to find themselves and they're reevaluating their marriages or their long term partnerships in midlife, two questions. One, Some sometimes people refer to a woman's decision not to be married anymore as part of a midlife crisis. And yes, I am using that term in air quotes. But and you touched on this before where people are talking about are they going crazy? Are they having a midlife crisis? So I'd be interested to know. What you think of this idea of a midlife crisis? Is it real? Is it a thing? So that's the first question. And the second question, I guess, is can you speak about the societal factors, maybe even psychological factors? And I realize you're not a doctor, but what are the societal and psychological factors that contribute to this prevalence of marital strain in midlife or midlife crisis? That's a lot to impact there. So let's start with midlife crisis, yes or no?

SPEAKER_00: But I don't think, no, I think it's a life opportunity rather than a crisis. I think it's like a, we don't, when, when teenagers, when adolescents are going from being adolescents to young adults, we don't criticize that change in their life because we know it's a natural part of their development, right? But midlife is also a natural part of our development. It is a natural part of growing and evolving and looking at things. It's, I think that society likes to, and this is a whole other podcast. I know you've touched on this. Society likes to make it about the woman going through some hormonal upheaval.

SPEAKER_01: She's crazy. She's unhinged. Look at her. We can't trust her with anything. She's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And that's a problem, obviously. So these conversations are changing that. I don't think it's a crisis. I think that it's an opportunity. I think the backpedaling that us as women are doing now is because there's more conversation around it. We don't have to automatically go to, I got to change my life so big that I got to get a divorce. I'm feeling so unhappy that I have to go get a divorce. Not to say that some people will not come to that conclusion anyways, but I think that because there's conversation and we've opened up the door, if you will, to letting all these things be okay, that then women can really examine what's going on without the pressure of having to make some sort of big decision. It's such a nuanced process for individuals to go through. And there's so many things involved. I do think that, again, that it has to do with the timing and how everybody's life is. I've always thought it's for women that have children. I think that it's a cruel and interesting thing. We start, most women will start perimenopause around the same time that their children are getting a download of hormones almost simultaneously. And so that's somewhat of a cruel joke, I think, but. And the idea of that, yes, that is happening. There is so much more going on than that. I think that women want something deeper. And so it really depends on the partner that they're with. Right. So some partners are going to be very. understanding and want to have those hard conversations. And on the men's side, I work with men too, not as often as women, but I work with men too. And I hear similar things. So this might be interesting to your listeners is that I hear similar words. I feel stuck. I don't know what's next. I'm struggling to get off the waist performative kind of ideas. Like men have that performative piece is really big for men, but it's big for women too. But that usually is what leading the conversation is with men is their anxiety around performing. And men are also changing. We don't talk about this, but men are also having changes in hormones. Men are also getting hormone replacement. And it's okay, because that's also part of their development. And these are conversations that I think we need to have more of is that men are also going through that. They're just handling it in different ways. Some are. So I don't know if that answers the question, Lori. Those are my thoughts as far as, no, I don't think it's a crisis. I think it's an opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: And if we get back to the marital issues, part of this is we're living longer. Midlife used to be younger or whatever, but there are a lot of women, and I'm sure you bring up men as well, but that are doing the work, that have spent the time to figure out What is important to me? What's next? How can I live my most fulfilled life moving forward? And sometimes their partners don't do that, right? That the expectation is we got married, we were either high school sweethearts or we met in college or we got married in our 20s. And then we spent a lot of time keeping young humans alive. And now they're finding that they really don't have much in common. So I think that in my perspective, at least, that is part of the reason that we're having these kind of this rise in marital issues in midlife.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that generally speaking, men are like, oh, good, the kids are gone now. What are we now? Let's live it up in some way, shape or form. And women are like, wait, I got to figure out What that means for me and maybe this isn't what I'm wanting to do anymore. I think you bring up a good point about It's harder in the mirror and just speaking of marriage. It's harder often for one partner to Acknowledge that change has happened because then back then that person has to then say that Either there's a problem or we need to do some work. And like you said, not everybody's willing to do the work. And doing the work doesn't mean that there's that only phase. broken necessarily, it means that things have shifted and now we're looking at changing the action plan, if you will. If you have a business and your business is growing, then you have to change certain things about that business. And it's the same in relationships. When the relationship, whether it's marriage or parent to child, I mean, my relationship with my grown adult children, it's very different. I'm not showing up as a mom in the same way that I did when they were teenagers. And so I think Understanding that marriage has to evolve and we have to show up differently for each other is also very important. And that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It just means that things are changing. We're growing, we're changing, evolving in different ways. And maybe that means you're giving more space for your partner to follow their dreams. And a lot of Sorry, guys, but a lot of men have a hard time doing that because it feels scary for them, you know, from a man's perspective. And I'm only I want to speak to this because I think it's important for women, your women listeners to understand that from a man's perspective, when a woman says, I'm stuck. I don't know what my purpose is. I want to find something different. Most men that I talk to, they're hearing, she doesn't love me. She wants to leave me. And I got to hold on to her more tightly. The conversation between the couple that needs to happen is reassuring that changes, that changes are natural, just like they were when we were younger. If you were a 20 year old in college, and then you're going to your next, your life is changing, but your life is also changing as midlife. And I think that the expectation from society is that, oh, you've made it. And once you've made it, you have it all figured out and changing. What, I'm sure you got this too, but what are you doing leaving your career that you've been with for 20 plus years? Like, how could you possibly do that? And also from earlier generations, there's this idea of security and that if you leave a corporate America or any kind of secure business, then you must be losing it because why would you throw all that away? Uh, and it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting and nuanced way that we interact with each other and that we have these ideas of, um, for lack of what's coming up for me as losing it. I've heard that often people think I'm losing it. or I'm crazy, or I just need to hang on for a few more years until my hormones get ready. Nothing crazy like that.

SPEAKER_01: She's menopausal. I love your idea that change in a marriage or a long-term relationship, there is a grief component to that. I love the advice to wait a year. Let's figure this out. I would add to that, I think any time you start making a pro-con list of anything, whether it's what's going on in your marriage, what's going on at work, should I leave my job, should I travel, leave my job, travel around the world, and you start keeping score that if you are only, like if you have come to the conclusion in your marriage that, you know what, I think it's time to move on, and you start making that pro-con list. Anytime you think to yourself, this marriage isn't working for me, you are going to find infinite number of reasons to back up that premise. If you think, you know what, My spouse, my husband is just, he's not showing up for me anymore. There will be an infinite number of ways that you can prove that right. But if you just take a step back, and maybe in that year of counseling and journaling and trying to figure it out, if you shift your focus a little bit and think, instead of keeping a list of all the negatives, But what is this person doing right? What is right in this relationship? Then I don't think, Kellie, either of us are saying that, yes, 100 percent, you're going to make it through. But if you change the lens through which you're looking at the relationship, And the way that you're showing up and the way that other person is showing up, then I think you're going to find you might be surprised, actually, that there are a number of good things that are actually happening within the container that you thought was irreparably broken.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can I add on to that? Yes. So one of the things I do when I work with couples is that very thing. We call it a living appreciations list. And so I ask each person to just keep like by their bedside or something, a live list of things that they appreciate about their partner. And what I mean by live is that it can go there often and you add to it. And then at some point, or are those points when you are feeling extra frustrated, you read over that regularly, but then at you, then you also share it with your partner. This is a great tool to use with kids too. But anytime we feel more appreciated, we're going to show up differently. Right? So just the mere act of your partner. knowing and then having a list and then being able to share it really changes the way you're going to show up. So it's really a win. It's a win for me if I'm making a list about the things that I appreciate with my husband. And then when I'm sharing that, it's a win for him because us as humans, when we are appreciated, we get, we want to cooperate and be more empathetic and we want to show up. for where we're being appreciated, right? This is true in every environment. Yeah, that's a really good point, being able to shift that. And yes, you will find evidence of what you're looking for. And that being said, we are not, I don't think either one of us were saying not to do that, but we're also saying not to do that, if that makes sense. So we're, I think that one of the things that I tell women, especially in this particular instance, is to take some time, have the hard conversations, as long as it's safe to do, of course, and then also trust your instincts. After you've gotten the professional help, after you've had the conversation, I think what happens for us also in midlife, going back to what we mentioned before, is that because we spent so much of our life at work making decisions for other people or a company at home, being the house manager, whatever that looks like for some women. And then what happens is we forget to know what our body feels like when it's a yes, when it's a no. And so we're very muddled in our mind body connection and how to make decisions. So that year that I'm talking about should also include getting to know what your body does when it's a yes, what your body does when it's a no, and trusting our instincts, because I think that is something that we lose. And that we're also searching for in midlife is how do I trust myself again? Especially if you've had a rougher, younger, if your younger years were rougher and you feel like you have an interpretation of yourself with making a lot of mistakes, you are less likely to trust yourself with some bigger things. So that's why some people will stay in relationships longer is because they don't trust themselves with a big decision. And so getting to know yourself. How you relate to yourself is vital in getting to know how you have relationships with others. It's it's really it has to happen first.

SPEAKER_01: I have a question for you. When was the last time you spent a day focused completely on yourself, away from the daily grind, the constant emails and text messages, the never ending question of what is for dinner? Well, if a day sounds good to you, what about an entire weekend away? And before you start thinking that sounds a little too indulgent, let me remind you that you can't take care of everyone else in your life if you don't take care of yourself first. I am thrilled to personally invite you to join me at the next Best Life Retreat in world-famous Sun Valley, Idaho. with more than 15 hours of group coaching to figure out what you actually want in life, how you define success and help you lay the groundwork for you to create a life that not only makes you happy, but also makes you feel personally fulfilled. There will be incredible group activities like happy hour paint and sips, morning walks, a sunrise hike, your choice of spa appointments at an award-winning spa. All of this wrapped up in luxury accommodations, gourmet meals, premium drinks, and the best gift bag you have ever seen. I'm telling you, this will be one of the very best weekends of your entire life. To keep the retreat intimate, there are only 10 spots available and when they're gone, they're gone. So go right now, click the link in the show notes and get yourself on the priority list so that you'll be the first to know when we open up registration. I cannot wait to see you in Sun Valley. 

SPEAKER_01: Thank you for adding that. I do think that is a really important piece. When we talk about relationships, a lot of times we think about marriage, we think about friendships, but our relationship with ourselves, the person that we spend the most time with every day, forever, a lot of times that's the relationship that needs to be repaired, needs some attention. Thank you for bringing that up. We've talked a lot about marriage, and I don't want this episode to be totally about marriage as far as relationships. So let's switch a little bit and talk about friendships. It feels building new, meaningful friendships can be challenging in midlife. Our lives are busy with career and family. Maybe we're less busy with family in midlife, but

SPEAKER_00: But then you don't have those connections with your kids.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly. So we find this kind of social circle shift, right? Because a lot of times the kids are leaving home, maybe we're changing careers, we have friendships that have drifted apart. We've got compartmentalized friendships and the friends that are friends because they were friends of our kids' friends, or we have friends from work, or we have friends from different stages of our life, but how can we… Let's see, a couple things here. What advice do you have for, say, proactively nurturing a supportive friend group during the midlife years?

SPEAKER_00: Friendship is my favorite relationship right now in midlife, I'll tell you that. I'm very fortunate to have friends in my life, so I'll share that. I think whether it's friendship or other relationship, a reciprocal relationship is very important, and that doesn't mean That doesn't mean that somebody is always giving, giving, but that there is a comeback. So if you or somebody in your relationship, that is the only time people come to you is when they need something or they need help with this or that. And when you go to them, you're not getting it reciprocated. That's not a reciprocal relationship. So that's a, what I would call a non-negotiable for me personally at this stage in my life is that my relationships need to be reciprocal. And that doesn't mean like it's mirroring exactly what I'm giving out. So that's not my intention there.

SPEAKER_01: Everything is going terrible or what's my will be drama for the day? How can you help? Yeah. And they don't show up for us. That reciprocal, the reciprocity in their relationship, I think is vital. I agree.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do too. I think the other thing is finding people that you not doesn't have to be a hundred percent, but are like-minded people that when you're around them, you feel lifted up or nurtured. somehow nourished. I think having a nourishing relationship is important and that might mean that they're a good listener, that might mean that they are a safe place for you and can show up as yourself. I think that's another thing that's really important. So reciprocation, being authentic, And then if you are somebody like, for instance, if you're somebody new to an area, it's going to be important that you put yourself out there. If that, if having friendships is one of your core values and you want that kind of relationship, then you need to put yourself out there. And thankfully at this day and age, we have so many ways to do that. If you're not comfortable doing it in person, there's plenty of women groups to start with online and then. You know, I've seen so many relationships come about from online groups, um, between women in particularly. And it's like, you know, being able to be vulnerable enough to put yourself out there, if that's something you want. And given that study that you read at the beginning, I would say that it's in your best health interest to make some, to have some connections. I think the other thing that changes, and I don't know if you found this Laurie, was that I don't need a buttload of friends. There's a lot of women that I really admire, that inspire me, that I really, that I genuinely care about, but they don't have to be my bestie. I only, I just, I'm thankful that I have a handful of friends that I would consider calling if I needed, and I know that they would be there for me and vice versa. But I don't need a whole bunch of people. I don't. And that's, I think that's different from when we were younger, right? Like having, having a lot of friends was a thing, but I just need friends that I can be myself with and that I can, Fumble and have mistakes around and and also that will list me up and that I can do the same for them.

SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree. I've got. I'm going to say I can count on one hand the. the people that I would call if I needed anything. And if one of those people calls me, I am booking the airplane ticket. Whatever you need, I will be there. And that is, I think, more important. It feels like, I know that we talked about grief when talking about the end of a marriage, but I feel like that there is something It's almost a special kind of grief when a friendship ends, particularly if one person is almost ghosted or you don't really know what went wrong. Closure may not be the right word either, but they talk about a friend for, what, a season? Do you? I know what you're talking about. I know what you mean. A season, a reason, I don't know, whatever. Yeah. But talk about what happens when a friendship ends and maybe you're on the surprising receiving end of it when you didn't see it coming or What happens now?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that is a topic near and dear to my heart. I did have that happen actually to me personally and I think that going back to this idea of grief it absolutely does feel like grief and I think if anybody's going through that now it's important to reflect on what your part is. And I would say this about any relationship that ends. What is your part in it? And Don't, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on why the relationship ended, the friendship ended, but what was your part and what would you do differently if there's something to do differently? Right? Cause I think all of us, it's important to all, for all of us to have some sort of token of learning and then to acknowledge that even people that are, that we either know for sure we were close to, or we were close to at one time, everybody goes through things. And even everybody goes through something that we're not, we don't have a hundred percent insight on. All of us have a little bit of something that's happening in our lives that people don't know about. And so I really. like to trust the other person that they're showing up. This is what I believe. This is a core value for me. I believe that people are doing the very best they can with the situation that they're in and the tools they have at the time and the capacity to use those tools at the time. So I come from a real heart-centered place of trusting, even though it hurts sometimes, that people are going to do what they need to do. And as long as I've evaluated my part in it, I don't believe that in any relationship, it's always one-sided. I think that, yeah, both people could show up differently. Maybe they needed more information. I don't know. But I think that once you've done your work on what your part either could have been, some people don't know, right? If a relationship ends, like you mentioned, you're disgusted. What the heck happened? I don't even know what I did. And that's really painful. And so just owning your part and then working yourself through that by a lot of coaching and cheerleading of yourself. And that reminding yourself that people are often experiencing things that we don't understand or their experience of being able to, especially after there's a distance, like an amount of time, it's really hard for a lot of people to go back and say, Oh, this is how I handled that. This is what I was going through. And I'm sorry. A lot of people will never be able to do that. And that isn't. for you to hold on to. That is their stuff. Like we own our stuff and everybody else, everybody else's stuff is about them. If we try to figure out those mysterious pieces to the puzzle, we will just be in our head, just ruminating about trying to fix it with something that we have no idea what went on. So look at your part and then Just send them lots of love. I just believe that when you're struggling, you just send a person lots of love because nothing bad's going to come from that, right? If you stay in a place of being angry, it's really just going to hurt you. And I know that sounds a little bit like, who's the little girl that I always call myself? Pollyanna, I know that sounds a little Pollyanna, I'm aging myself now, but it's truly the only way personally that I can operate. I know that isn't the case for everybody else, but I think getting stuck in anger and asking a lot of questions about somebody's situation that you don't know, and they're not giving you information, but it was really hard for women, adult women to make friends without the kid connection. Yeah. Very challenging. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: I hear that a lot from women actually. 100% it is. And I did look it up because I know that there are people like screaming into at the podcast. The quote is people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. So those of you that were correcting us, we heard you. But I just want to piggyback on one thing you said about you need when something when a friendship ends. do your work, figure out what your role was in, in what happened, but then also realize that it probably wasn't about you. Further to what you were talking about, which is there are likely reasons that are going on in their life that you don't know about. One of the four agreements is it's not about you. So yeah, I love that book. I think that we have to be more mindful of, well, friendship may have just run its course, right? We both got what we needed to out of it. And it maybe is something that you did, but maybe not. So to the extent that you're able to figure out what the lesson is there for you to learn and move on and not wake up at two o'clock in the morning four months at a time and replay every conversation you had and every possible misstep. But things end and so do friendships. So talking about that it is more difficult in midlife. We've got, it's more difficult in midlife to make friends. We, most of the times our kids have gone, gone. They're still with us. They're not physically in our home anymore. We're not seeing, we're not making friends at their lacrosse games. But so maybe we're going and we're playing pickleball and we've got our pickleball group or tennis league where we're meeting people at work, although they're retiring, or maybe we are working at home now. Any ideas on how to cultivate strong relationships in midlife that will continue to be vibrant for the longer term?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the connection piece is really important. So I don't first of all, I wouldn't say if you don't find a connection right away, I wouldn't say ditch that person. But I would say that you don't hang on. I would say that you don't hang on. because you so badly want to have a friendship because then you're going to cultivate a relationship that isn't healthy for you because you're not, that's not a good connection for you. So I would say trust yourself in the connection and you know, that would go back into knowing yourself and what's a yes and what's a no for you. So for example, if you mute somebody and they are talking about other friends in a negative way. There's a lot of gossiping or negative kind of comments in the, and rife with complaining. And if that doesn't work for you and you feel uncomfortable with that, trusting that is not, that's probably not a relationship that you want to grow. Also, it could just be that one-off. Some people will complain and gossip out of nervousness and because they don't know what else to talk about. Sam, I would caution people to, and just giving them another chance. But if you see a pattern, if you see patterns that you're uncomfortable with, similar to if you were dating in a romantic relationship, if there are red flags for you in a friendship, you have to know what those red flags are first, by the way, what those non-negotiables are, then at this stage in my life, I wouldn't give it a lot of time. I would, not with any animosity, but just, you know, it's time to, that's not something that I want to spend a lot of time doing, gossiping with somebody over a drink or whatever. That's not something that I want to do. So, so knowing yourself and what your non-negotiables are, I think works in friendship as well. For sure it does. And being able to have real authentic conversations. For me is a yes, but that's not true for everybody. So I don't want to put my own perspective. Some people are like, I just want to go have a drink and have somebody to play blame a pool with. That's not going to try to lay on me. So maybe that's all that person needs. So whatever your red flags and green flags are to relationship and friendship is what people should trust. It doesn't have to look like. It doesn't have to be this really wonderful spiritual kind of connection where you're talking about how to save the world every time you meet, like I like, but some people want just a more casual friendships and that's okay too, but you have to know your style to know what you want in a friendship, just like you do any relationship. Just like, it's like trying to get a job. You have to know what kind of job environment works for you in the same way you need to what you need to know what kind of friendship environment is your, is for you.

SPEAKER_01: It's a two-way street, right? Yeah. And just like you said, knowing yourself and trusting yourself and understanding what it is that you want and you need from the relationship is very important.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And if you're not an active person, like you mentioned, pickle ball or going to these other things, it is going to be harder. And, but that's why I recommend like looking for groups online. One of the populations that I work with is some people have pretty severe mental health diagnosis. And so my job with them is to help them connect with the community. And so some of the ways that we do that is working on. either online apps to find their interest. If somebody that I work with is really interested in rhyming, then we're going to look for writing groups. Because that gives somebody something to do while they're in that group. And there's not this pressure of just going there for a friendship. The primary reason is you're going there for whatever subject you're interested in. Maybe it's an art class. Maybe it's something else that you're interested in, but you can start with going online and looking for different groups. I think Facebook has tons of groups just by searching. And then that's easy for people that are really isolated or struggling with some social anxiety because they, it's an easy out. They can check out the group and if it's not for them, they're just leave the online group..

SPEAKER_01: That's such an interesting way to use social media because I know that so many of us have friends on social media, right? And if we've never met them before, we may or may not have anything in common with them, but we've got so many friends on social media. And yet, despite all of these connections online, A lot of studies are showing that women in particular feeling less connected than they ever have before. So yeah, social media oftentimes gets a knock because it's this perfectly curated life. And look at what so and so from junior high school is doing in her beautiful life. And that sometimes makes us start feeling badly about ourselves. But I love how you have not switch that narrative, but you're using social media, you're encouraging your clients to use social media in a way that is productive to find these.

SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's the only entry point for people to be social. And so getting people comfortable connecting in some way, shape or form is really the beginning. And so I don't think it's necessarily ideal, but for some people, it's the only entry point into being social.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. I think we started talking about the importance of relationships for longevity. If you're like me, you plan to live to 100, but only if my body is good and my mind is there, because what's so good about living that long if you can't enjoy it? But looking ahead, and maybe this is the last, we'll wrap it up here, but what can we do now to set ourselves up for good relationships, successful relationships in the long term? And maybe better said, are there habits or mindsets that you would recommend that women can adopt today so that we continue to reap the benefits and rewards of long-term relationships through the rest of our life?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. So I would, first of all, go back to that point of understanding what you need. And that can sound simply, Hey, I'm noticing that we're on our phone a lot. When we get together, I would really value, um, I also need to put my phone down, but I'd really value that we focus on putting our phones away and really connecting when we get together. So really being able to communicate your needs. So know what your needs are, communicate your needs, and then also be willing to reach out to people. So if you have good friendships now and you're waiting for everybody to come to you, that's really probably not going to serve you the best because everybody has something going on. If you want a connection with somebody and that's a value of yours, then reach out to them. Even if it's, hey, I was thinking about you. And that just shows that you are invested in what the other person is doing. And then also, you mentioned, what was the book you mentioned? The Four Agreements. Thank you. The Four Agreements. That's another thing in midlife, right? Are you having the brain thing?

SPEAKER_01: I am a little bit of brain fog. Yep. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. A lot of bit of brain fog over here in Kellie world. Um, so, um, not taking things personal, I think is a huge. Uh, practice, um, in midline, because you're going through things yourself and then it's important to acknowledge that also other people are, and if you're curious, then ask, I think one of the biggest things I see in relationships is I hear. People say, I didn't know that they felt like that because nobody is saying if you have a need, ask for it. If you feel something about something, say it, show it, express it. I think we get ourselves in so much trouble in our relationships by not communicating what we need because we're afraid of either being too needy or being too sensitive or being a burden or being something. But in the long run, If you're communicating it with love and respect and honesty, then how the other person takes it is on them. You just need to come from a place of truth where your truth is at and then obviously communicate that in a respectful way because nobody gets anywhere with being disrespectful. So I would say that's the number one thing in your relationships is to communicate. Once you know what you want is communicate. Keep the connections and communicate what you need.

SPEAKER_01: I think that there is no better advice, so we might as well end the conversation there. Before I let you go, though, there are two questions that I ask every guest on the School of Midlife podcast. So question number one, and they're easy, they're easy. If you could go back to your 30-year-old self, knowing everything now with all of your life experience and the lessons you've learned along the way, what advice would you give to her?

SPEAKER_00: I would tell her to trust herself and to know that it's going to be okay. A hundred percent on the trust yourself part.

SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful. Question number two, what have you loved most about being a midlife woman?

SPEAKER_00: I think I, so historically I'm really sensitive and the, and which is my superpower now. So that's what I love most is that awareness that my ability to be sensitive is a superpower. It's not a weakness. So I think that I fully embrace that at this point. And I think that's probably the best part is embracing those things that for whatever reason, we're told that we're a problem. And now understanding that they're really not a problem. They are really what makes you amazing. Yeah, that.

SPEAKER_01: I love that. And I will give you an amen on that. Like the things that were a problem for so long are turned out to be superpowers and things that we celebrate. I'm very proud of. So wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today, Kellie. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Laurie. I've enjoyed it, too.

SPEAKER_01: Do you ever wish you had a community of midlife women you could go talk to about those big life questions that seem to pop up in midlife? Like, what do I want? What's my legacy? What's next for me? A community of women to have candid conversations with about all the things that come at us in midlife that no one else seems to be talking about. Changes in our bodies related to menopause, sure, but also changes in our relationships and family life and careers. Well, great news. The School of Midlife has launched a book club called Your Next Chapter. Each month, we'll be reading and discussing books that relate to the unique experiences of midlife women. It's absolutely free to join, and we'd love to have you meet up with us and add your voice to these important discussions. And this isn't like other book clubs, because if you didn't have time to finish the book, but you're still interested in the conversation, absolutely join us anyway because you'll still get so much out of the conversation. The book club is free to join, but you'll need to sign up. Click the sign up link in the show notes and you'll automatically receive your invitation to join us. Get signed up, grab this month's book, and start reading. And we'll look forward to seeing you at the next book club discussion, where together, we're helping each other make midlife our best life.