65. Stop Going It Alone: Why Midlife Women Need Community | Heather Johnson Durocher (Part 2)

In today's episode, Heather Johnson Durocher and I continue our deep-dive into the world of midlife transitions with a special focus on identity, career changes, and maintaining friendships during this transformative period.

Our conversation kicked off with a reflection on how midlife is a time for re-evaluation and asking ourselves critical questions about what we truly want out of life. We discussed the importance of staying true to oneself and the challenges and opportunities that come with changing careers in midlife.

A significant part of our discussion was dedicated to the complexities of midlife friendships. We explored how these relationships evolve and sometimes become challenging as we navigate through different life stages. The conversation was enriched by personal anecdotes and insights, making it feel like a heart-to-heart between two friends.

Additionally, we touched on the creative pursuits that often become a focal point in midlife. I shared my excitement about the upcoming projects and expansions at the School of Midlife, including luxury retreats and a new field trip program.

To wrap up, we reflected on the liberating aspects of reaching midlife, such as gaining a clearer sense of self and feeling more secure in our identities and choices. We concluded with a reminder of the importance of not waiting for the perfect moment to pursue our dreams, emphasizing that midlife can be the best time to embrace new challenges and opportunities.

Thank you for tuning in, and I hope this discussion inspires you to make midlife your best life. Don't forget to check out the show notes for links and additional resources discussed in today's episode. See you next time!

LINKS + MENTIONS:

Part 1 of My Conversation with Heather Johnson Durocher

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Join Heather's Email List: https://movingthrough.substack.com/

Listen to Heather's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/moving-through-with-heather-johnson-durocher/id1668611998

Follow Heather on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michiganrunnergirl/

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Transcript

SPEAKER00: Welcome to the School of Midlife podcast. I'm your host, Laurie Reynoldson. This is the podcast for the midlife woman who's starting to ask herself big life questions like, what do I want? Is it too late for me? And what's my legacy beyond my family and my work? Each week, we're answering these questions and more. At the School of Midlife, we're learning all of the life lessons they didn't teach us in school. And we're figuring out, finally, what it is we want to be when we grow up. Let's make midlife your best life.

Remember the classified ads, like in a newspaper? Yep, those classified ads, where you could look for a job or post things for sale or look for a roommate? Now, most of those things are posted on Facebook Marketplace and other social media sites. About a month ago, a friend of mine who works with journalists sent me an online post from a podcast host looking for an expert guest to talk with her audience about midlife transitions. I responded to the post, or Rather, I should say I sent an unreasonably long series of DMs to that podcast host going into way too much detail about who I am, what I do at the School of Midlife, and why I think my story about changing careers in my mid-40s and caring for my ailing in-laws was exactly the kind of transition stories that would resonate with her audience. Luckily, she didn't think I was an oversharing stalker, or maybe she did. But regardless, those DMs led to an hour-long telephone conversation with Heather Johnson DeRocher, a journalist, the founder of the Michigan Runner Girl Lifestyle brand and community, and the host of the Moving Through podcast. And on that call, Heather and I realized that we have a lot in common. And we have a lot to share with our respective listeners. So we decided to do a joint episode. You'll have a front row seat to our discussion about all sorts of midlife transitions. How we each navigated changing careers in midlife. what our identity looks like when our kids are older and no longer need a mom who cares for their every need, how women can figure out what they want to do in midlife, why midlife friendships can feel hard, and how to navigate midlife without losing ourselves along the way. This discussion is raw and unedited and it feels a lot like you're listening to two new friends going deep on the important things because that's exactly what it is. This is part two of the conversation. If you haven't already listened to last week's episode to get the backstory and part one of the conversation, I would pause this episode right now, go back, listen to last week's, and then you'll understand the context and you can pick right back up with us in the middle of the conversation.

SPEAKER01: Getting really clear on what you want is so important. And I agree that we don't, we don't often, we're not very good necessarily at really taking the time to ask ourselves that question of ourselves, because we are thinking so much about the people in our life and caring for the people we love. I also, Laurie, wanted to point out that I think that what we want can also for sure change. And I think getting and recognizing that because one thing I think about, I definitely got caught up in raising my kids and putting their needs before my own. in many ways, but I will also say it was always in my mind too, though, that I thought, and I don't know if it's just from conversations I had with older women or just seeing what maybe my own mother went through and seeing how she navigated having, she has four kids, but she, two with her first husband, which was myself and my older brother, and then two more with her second marriage. I just, I think that I always had in my mind, even when my kids were younger, okay, make sure you don't forget yourself. Don't make sure you don't get lost. And I'm really thankful that I had that within me. And I think that's why I started doing things like, okay, I do, I did want to be a stay at home mom. And that was a sacrifice that, you know, Joe and I made that decision together and it meant he worked extra jobs. I remember when our kids were really little and, but then I also was very clear with myself of, I don't want to give up writing. I'm a writer. I'm going to keep writing and I'm going to start freelance writing. And so I did that when our kids were very young. And I'm so grateful that I did things for myself, I guess is what I want to say. But also what has been interesting and somewhat confusing for me is coming to this point in my life and saying, okay, I did all that. And I asked myself through the years, what do you want? And tried to balance that with raising kids. But now I'm, oh, but what I used to like and want, I don't like or want anymore. And that's okay. Yes. Yeah. It's like, it's totally okay. It's also just been surprising for me because I think in some ways I thought I was going to, I didn't see that coming, I guess, like reaching midlife and saying, Oh, but the things that I used to like really love, I'm questioning a little bit or yeah. So it's just, it's been a real time of learning. Who am I now at age 49? Who is this woman? I really want to get to know her. And then thankfully I have some more time and freedom to focus on myself. I feel like. because my kids are older. And so it feels good, but it also is very much like, oh, there's it's my face. And sometimes it can be a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I would say you're not alone in feeling sometimes being a little surprised by that maybe isn't what I want anymore. I think a lot of the women that I work with and coach, they have everything they always thought they ever wanted. Like they're living their dream life and the dreams change, right? The things that you want change and the, more that you focus on personal growth yourself, that of course just means that your needs and your wants are going to change with that growth. So long as we're being mindful of that, then it's fun figuring out what's exciting and new and different. And what is it that I want right now? So I love that. I also love that you talked about how you were so mindful and making sure that you didn't lose yourself in all of the different times in your life and with the relationships, because I think that's so important to. Know who we are and know what we want, of course, something, and I'm not sure why this occurred to me, but when we are focused on raising kids and our marriages and our jobs go by the wayside a little bit. And I don't know about you, but once we get to midlife, I there are relationships that I wish I would have poured more time into, but I think. Relationships, friendships in midlife can be tricky. Have you experienced that or?

SPEAKER_01: Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up. I, this is something that is on my mind quite a bit, actually. Yeah. I feel like I'm in this stage right now. I actually was just talking to my best friend from college. She lives out on the East coast and we met at Michigan State. And so we've since college, we've never lived close by to each other. But through the years, just like a lot of long-term friendships, we've had our kind of ebbs and woes of sometimes there's been, we're really connected and other times maybe a little bit of time goes by, we haven't chatted. But then she's the kind of friend that when you talk, it feels like everything, like no time has gone by at all type of thing. We can pick right back up. So it's really nice. I love those friends. I know, and I'm so grateful, but I also, I was telling her, this was on Saturday, this was the same day of the Natalie Merchant cry fast in my car of these days.

SPEAKER_00: But I said to Jen, I'm like, I just. And I think it's these are the days I've been like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: You're like the songs going in your head. I know. I was trying to remember if the name of the song was just days or if it's these are the days, but yes. We'll have to put this in the show notes and link to the site. But I was saying to Jen that I just really wanted her to be in the same city as me this weekend. I just, I had this free afternoon ahead of me. I had this work thing in the morning where I had to give a presentation. It went really well. So I was on this high from that. And I was going to pick up my book that I'd ordered and the bookstore said it's in. I was so excited. And just like feeling really good. The weather's really nice here in Northern Michigan. Finally, like warm and sunny feel almost summer. And everyone in my family was like, they're doing their own thing. And I just had this afternoon and I just said to her, I'm like, I wish that you could just meet me. Cause you're the kind of friend that I could say, Hey, do you want to go get a coffee right now? You want to go to the bookstore with me? And she would do that. And I just realized we were talking about this, how it's just not so easy to have. I don't have really, I guess I have those friends, but we haven't done that in a long time. And so I'm missing that. And I know I probably just need to pick up the phone and text or call them and say, Hey, let's go. But I don't know. We were also talking about, we both feel a little bit like we're the ones who have been trying to connect with people and I'm, I told her I'm tired of it, of being the one that's, Hey, do you want to get together? Hey, do you want to go do this? And, and I know they have perfectly valid reasons. They're busy. We're all busy or whatever, but I don't know. I actually wrote about this not too long ago on my sub stack about just feeling sad about how we're all so busy and it always seems like things come up. Oh, oh, can we reschedule? Or, oh, I can't do that. And. I'm not saying I've been perfect with it either. I certainly have had my times where I'm like, yeah, actually, I don't know. It's not going to work out. Maybe we can reschedule that. But yeah, that's where I'm at right now with my female friendships and doing a lot of thinking about that too because I miss girlfriends. I do miss having, I've never been one who's had like a ginormous group of friends where we all get together and we go on regular vacations or things like that. But I've always thought it's more quality over quantity for me. I have a handful of just really wonderful, beautiful, close girlfriends who I know if I picked up the phone and I said, I really need you, they would be there for me. So they're very meaningful, these relationships, but Uh, maybe because I don't have this wide net of people, sometimes I ask myself, maybe that's the problem. I don't have a whole huge group of friends that I can tap into and do those kinds of like social impromptu, hey, meet me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: How about you, though? I'm going through a lot of the very similar experiences that you are. I have traditionally been the planner. Let's have a dinner party. Let's go have drinks. Let's get together. Let's do something. And I really pulled back. after the pandemic, all of it, none of us went out during the pandemic. But what was interesting to me is when I wasn't planning the things, it was almost like nothing was happening. So like you, it's, I've been on this I've been trying to balance how much time and energy do I want to put into it if I feel like I'm not getting anything back. And I understand that the friends that the deep connection friends like your friend Jen, I still have those. Unfortunately, they don't live in the same city that I do, not even the same state. But there is something that really does fill your cup, even if you just have those conversations with the people that you can just pick it right up with. Even if you don't see them, maybe you can even go a year without seeing them. But it's almost like I have chosen to have fewer of those deeper relationships than fill my time with a lot of lunches and coffees and other things with people where we just have surface conversation with. That's almost more energy draining for me than staying home.

SPEAKER_01: I agree. I am with you completely on that. Yeah, I think I've always had a hard time with that. Um, I think maybe it's the journalist in me too. Like I want to get to the heart of things here. Let's get to the story. Like I've never, yeah, really enjoyed that, that surface kind of talk, the small talk.

SPEAKER_00: And I know you have. It is.

SPEAKER_01: You have to do maybe some of it to an extent, but it. Yeah. Yeah. When, as far as choosing to spend your free time with people, you want it to be true. conversation where you really feel like there's some substance there, that you're both fully there and you're enjoying each other's presence.

SPEAKER_00: I want to ask you about your novel because one of the so every morning I write down, I've got a morning 5, 10, 5 ritual that I do. It's my way of journaling because it's easier. And when I sit down and journal and I look at a blank page and I think this is stupid, but With the 5-10-5, five things I'm grateful for, 10 dreams I achieved, and five things I'm looking forward to during the day. And number one on that is I am a New York Times number one bestselling author. Now, I haven't written the book yet, but I will at some point. But tell me about your novel. You went from, you've got this journalism background. Now you're in midlife, you're writing a novel. How did that happen?

SPEAKER_01: I know it's interesting when you are a writer for your career. I feel like I've gotten asked this over the years. Oh, when are you going to write that novel? When are you going to write that book? And for years and years, my response was, I don't know if I will, maybe, but I, especially if people ask me about fiction, I, because of my journalistic background, it was always like, I can't make that up. There was a saying, one of my colleagues in St. Paul, when we worked in the newspaper together, she would come back from reporting on something and she'd say, you just can't make this shit up.

SPEAKER_00: And especially now, like the world is bananas. So the shit that's going on now, if you put that in a book 15 years ago, people were like, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly. There's yeah. And so I can't but I have that mindset because there is so many fascinating, interesting things that happen in real life. And I love reporting on it and writing those stories and doing profiles of interesting people doing really amazing. fascinating things. So I wasn't quite sure I had it in me to make up a story or come up with characters. But over the last, I would say, maybe five-ish or more years, I started noticing I was reading books differently and really studying the craft of it, like really noticing a beautiful sentence or just a way, a turn of phrase, just the description and being so admiring. And as maybe it was also as I was going further along in my writing career and even though I was doing more of like travel writing and I got into healthcare writing and even financial services writing, just, I guess I was writing a whole lot more too. And even though it wasn't in that creative, like novel writing sense, it was still like, I wanted to always continue to get better at my craft. And so maybe that was part of it too, but it also, that That little niggle in my head of you could write a book was there. And yeah, as I started reading more books, that's of course the best advice to give to people. And what I always hear too is if you want to write, read and read. I've always been a big reader, but then I really, I think I amped it up even more. And like I said, it was really studying how great books are written. And I read this one book. Have you happened to have read My Last Innocent Year?

SPEAKER_00: I haven't. I read almost exclusively nonfiction. It's like personal development, so I need to get out of my lane a little bit and read some fiction, but I haven't read that one.

SPEAKER_01: I'll have to send you a link to it. Please. Yes. It's a fantastic book. And I think it would really speak to you even more so too because of being a Gen Xer, because it takes place on a college campus in the nineties. And so it's from the perspective of a woman who's in her senior year of college. What's it called? My Last Innocent Year.

SPEAKER_00: I'm actually I'm going to Mexico next week and it would probably be a great beach read.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, I would recommend it. And Daisy Alpert Florin is the author. And I have so I've since gotten to know Daisy a little bit and. I follow her, she has a sub stack and she had mentioned something about how she got her novel written. And she's also, she's our age. So this is her debut novel. So that was also very inspiring to hear from. Anytime I hear stories of women in their late forties, fifties, and they're writing their first book. Wow. That's incredible. and are older, just I love hearing those stories. Daisy mentioned this program, it's a postgraduate program that she was enrolled in called the Gateless Academy. And that's really what propelled her forward and really got her to the point of being able to write her book, finding an agent, selling the book, all of that. And I was intrigued and I started looking into it. And this was probably well over a year ago, maybe even two. And I thought, I don't know. All those things came up in my head. I don't have time because it's a 10-month long program. It's all online, but it's pretty intensive. And I'm like, I don't have time for that. Oh, investment. It's not cheap, but investment in myself, of course, but all the things, all the reasons why I couldn't do it at that time was they were all ticking through my mind. But at the same time, I was also starting to do some more things for myself. Like I took this writing meditation class one summer, a couple of summers ago, and then I took it again in the fall. I was really starting to do some things writing wise that were really just for me, not for a job, not for a client, like just for me. And so when I came back around, Daisy wrote again about this program and how there was a webinar if you wanted to pop in and learn more about it. And I thought, maybe I will. And this was last September. And I was just immediately hooked. It was like a feeling of almost coming home, being around all these people who were talking about wanting to write, and they had ideas, but they didn't know where to start. And Because I had in my head, well, if I'm going to start some kind of like an MFA program, it's not an actual MFA, like master's in fine arts program, but it's similar to one. Like the rigor of it. It's what you're trying to do. Get a book together. I thought I have to have an outline. I have to have everything figured out. Who are my characters? What's the plot? All of that. I had that in my head. I don't know where I got that from, but that's what I thought. And I was quickly assured, no, you actually don't. Like you, you really just need to have the willingness to write it, to just get it down on paper and it'll come together. And you're going to learn the craft of writing a novel. And there's some people who are working on memoirs or a how-to book. There's people in there who are doing that too. Yeah, I just, I took the plunge and applied. Had no idea if I would get in. I did and started it up in November and it'll finish up here for the end of summer. And it's just been amazing. Even in the beginning, though, it was a little bumpy. It was like, all right, all those doubts came into my mind. Who am I to be here? Do I really have the chops for this? Do I have the time? All those things. But it just kept showing up. And now I have quite a bit of writing done and some chapters. I don't know which order they're going to be in yet, but it's all going to come together. I'm just trusting the process. And I've thought a lot about how this reminds me in some ways of when I really got into running in my thirties and I was all in and I learned so much just through trial and error, but I just kept showing up. And then I think that's the key to it. When you really want something and you're even this, you're scared and you don't know how this is going to unfold and what it's going to look like. But if you just keep showing up, who knows? It's pretty magical what can happen. So that's where I'm at right now with this novel and it's exciting and scary. It's going to be a process.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for asking. Yes, of course.

I have a question for you. When was the last time you spent a day focused completely on yourself, away from the daily grind, the constant emails and text messages? The never-ending question of what is for dinner? Well, if a day sounds good to you, what about an entire weekend away? And before you start thinking that sounds a little too indulgent, let me remind you that you can't take care of everyone else in your life if you don't take care of yourself first. I am thrilled to personally invite you to join me at the next Best Life Retreat in world-famous Sun Valley, Idaho. With more than 15 hours of group coaching to figure out what you actually want in life, how you define success, and help you lay the groundwork for you to create a life that not only makes you happy, but also makes you feel personally fulfilled. There will be incredible group activities like happy hour paint and sips, morning walks, a sunrise hike. Your choice of spa appointments at an award-winning spa. All of this wrapped up in luxury accommodations, gourmet meals, premium drinks, and the best gift bag you have ever seen. I'm telling you, this will be one of the very best weekends of your entire life. To keep the retreat intimate, there are only 10 spots available and when they're gone, they're gone. So go right now. Click the link in the show notes and get yourself on the priority list so that you'll be the first to know when we open up registration. I cannot wait to see you in Sun Valley.

SPEAKER_01: You might need to know more about this program because you mentioned you might write a book someday, right? You want to write a book. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe? Yes, I will. It will probably be memoir slash how to combined. At least that's the book that's percolating, floating around in my head. And yeah, that's how it begins. Yes. It's changed a lot over the years, and I think And I'm glad that I didn't write the book that I thought that I would have written before, because I feel like I am, I'm figuring out my authentic voice a lot more than I used to know it. And what I mean by that is I think the book that I would have written before would have been very predictable. It would have been something that someone, a woman in my situation would have written. And I'm trying to be more controversial is not the right word, but more provocative and say less of the things that I think that people want to hear from me and really be more honest and real with what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling. So I don't think if I would have written the book five, even five years ago, that it would be the kind of book that I would like to write.

SPEAKER_01: I lost you there for just a second. It went a little quiet. So I didn't why you think I wasn't responding to what you said. But I'm good. Thank you for telling me about where you're at with the book. You know what you made me think about, too, was that for there were a number of years that my husband would ask, when are you going to write that book? Like he even started asking me that question. But to be fair to him, I think it was because I started talking about it more and would be in a bookstore and I'm like, I want to write a book. And so I think he was like, when are you going to do it? And I remember also feeling, I don't know if the time is right. And it was like the legitimate, not just me saying, oh, I don't have the time. It was like, I do think there's something to be said for when you just feel like everything is bubbled up to the point where like, now this is it. And that's what I felt. And I think that probably there's a lot of us in midlife that are feeling that, whether it's writing a book or something else, like the timing just feels in many ways so right for whatever it is that we want to do. And it doesn't mean that we didn't want to do it before, but the timing just seems to be lining up in a different kind of way.

SPEAKER_00: I feel like the older I get, the more I learn every time that when I'm trying to push something or really make something happen, and it's just not coming together, that there's a reason that it's not. And when, when I am really meant to be somewhere, do something, fulfill some role, whatever it is, if it just falls into place really easily, then it feels much more in alignment with where I am because, man, I have fought for a lot of things in my life. And but at the end, it turned out that maybe those really weren't meant for me. And not that the fight was in vain, but if you can get comfortable understanding that it'll happen how it's supposed to happen in due time, then it makes things a lot easier, I think.

SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's some of that wisdom that we get as we get older. Because we, like you said, when you do push and you do try to make things happen before their timing, it's, I think about, it made me think about when you just send that, like things that, I don't know, not exactly blown up in my face. Cause sometimes it could just be, it just didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to, and it was maybe uncomfortable. And then I think it was probably because I just pushed it a little too much. It wasn't. And that's never, like, the best feeling. It's always great when it comes together and it feels like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, now this makes sense and this is really feeling good.

SPEAKER_00: But I also, just to put a pin in this, I don't want women listening to this to think that we're saying, Just wait, whatever it is you want to do. Wait until the time is right. Wait until things are perfect. Wait until everything is good with everyone around you. Because if you just if you spend your life waiting for the right time, and I think most of it, we're waiting for an invitation or we're waiting for permission from someone else, then we're just going to spend our lives waiting. And then you're going to run out of time. That's just the bottom line, right? We get one shot at this life. And if we spend our time waiting to be asked to do something from somewhere else or given a permission, we're just going to spend our lives waiting. And then we're going to We're going to die with a bunch of wishes and dreams that we left, that were left unfilled, unfilled.

SPEAKER_01: Is there something in particular for you right now that you feel like now's the time? I'm really glad I'm doing this or this is what I'm about to do. Like the timing is just very right for you at something right now.

SPEAKER_00: I think it comes back to the School of Midlife. This is going to be an explosive year for this business. We do luxury retreats for women. Starting next year, we're going to take that abroad. We're going to have a study abroad program. That's the fun thing about School of Midlife is there are lots of fun little plays on different things. But there's a field trip program that we're going to be rolling out. We started a book club this year. I have a couple of speaking engagements. The podcast is is going gangbusters. So it might have taken a little while to to get here, and it probably took longer than I would like because I'm an impatient person. But it's all coming together very beautifully. And it's giving me the ability to say, yeah, I can go ahead and step away from the commercial real estate brokerage. I might leave a little bit of money on the table, but my upside, my potential upside with the School of Midlife, if I turn that energy into the business I'm building, it's going to be much better. So yeah. That's exciting. Thank you. It is. And I, for a while, was really frustrated, I think, with the pace of progress. But when I look back on it, I didn't have the systems in place to serve large amounts of women. So if they would have come into the programs at that point, I would have been really stuck. Yeah, it's going at the pace it should. How about you? Is it the book for you?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I, yeah, probably. It's always like a little bit of a hesitation because I do this like quick check of, wait, everything in my life. I think of my kids and think, okay, how are they? Where are they at? What do I need to be doing? They are in that realm. But like I said, I do have this freedom. a sense of a greater, different kind of freedom with my relationship with my husband and then also with my own creative pursuits that I didn't have. Even I think about a couple of years ago, like one thing I'm thinking about doing in the coming year is going to a writer retreat. And I actually had an opportunity to potentially go to one this spring, came up somewhat last minute because there was an opening and There was this week of me fretting and overthinking and wondering, should I try to make this happen? Should I do this? Should I not? I actually wrote a little bit about this on in my, one of my most recent posts on my substat because it, it brought up a lot of questions of like, when is the right time to maybe do something? this big for myself because it would be a retreat, by the way, in Italy. So it wasn't just a retreat here, even down the road. It was like this is going to be something a little more substantial. And and so there were a lot of questions raised. But then I ultimately I felt really good about Where I landed in talking about pushing things, there was a side of me that I'm a little impatient. Like I couldn't get to that retreat. I should do it now. Let's make this happen. I can make this happen. And I probably could have, but it felt a little bit of that pushing too hard to make it work. When, if I stepped back, which is what I did. And I said to myself, is there going to be another opportunity for this? Yes. And in fact, a very specific one, but it's going to be in 2025 and that's okay. And in fact, after I finally made the decision and after talking with Joe and ruminating myself, all that, I felt so much better. I just felt so good about, okay, now it feels like I'm not trying to push too hard. And yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And that's something going away on a, maybe a week or two week long Rite Aid retreat is just something, it's not that maybe I couldn't have done with my kids, but I have always been aware of, I like being around for the kids. I like being the one. I really love to cook and I, it's one of my joys in life to make food and create food and for my family and my loved ones and just kind of presence I wanted to have. I always had to weigh that with some of the things that I want. And definitely I have put my family more, but I'm feeling a shift. I think I can start to do some more things that are really for me. And that's exciting and different and scary, but exciting mostly.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm looking at the time. We should probably wrap up. At the School of Midlife podcast, we end every episode with the same two questions. So I thought I would ask them to you. Are you going to answer them too? I don't usually do that, but I suppose I could.

SPEAKER_01: Since we're doing this a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's fair. No one's ever asked me that before, but yes, I will. So question number one is, if you could go back to your 30-year-old self, knowing everything now, having all of the lessons that you've learned, you've got all of the life experience that you've had along the way, what advice would you give to her?

SPEAKER_01: 30. 30 is interesting, too, because that was the age I was when I had our third child, too. Gosh, what a time, too, to have a five, three-year-old and then be about to have a third. And it was also like that time of life, too. And I know we all have our different periods of life when things are busier and when things are not as busy and that was a very full time for sure. And so when I think about how I was like, I think I was more frazzled than I needed to be. I worried a lot just about kind of everything. Am I going to be okay? Am I enough? All of those questions, not to say they don't still come up now and again, but I, I think that I would just try to, to reassure that 30 year old woman that you are doing an amazing job and you are beautiful and great just as you are. And those, it sounds cheesy, but it's like that staying true to yourself, because I really, I wish I would have learned when I was younger, or I wish it wouldn't have taken me quite as long to to just care more about what I wanted and how I saw things versus being so concerned about what do other people expect from me. Making other people happy. That's definitely been something that I'm very pleased that I'm getting more aware of and better now that I'm older. It's not, we hear a lot about that whole like giving zero fucks or, and I heard recently this woman say, I think it was a podcast I was listening to and she was like, And maybe you've talked about this too. So forgive me if like you actually were talking about this too, just like you actually do have a lot. Like I care a lot. I'm not caring any less. In some ways, I feel like I'm caring more, but for the things that I want to care. And so I'm just really trying to sift through what are the things Just don't serve me if I go in that direction or that person or just trying to be more discerning. And I think that's a gift that comes when you get older is you can be more discerning with your time and be more assertive. speak your mind more. I know there's some people who have always been good at that, speaking their mind, and I've been jealous of that over the years. But yeah, I also think there's something about midlife women who are just like have that confidence and it's not about being a know-it-all. It's just about being comfortable in their own skin and you still have to love being around people who show humility and Are asking questions are curious and that's just what I want to be. That's what I would tell that 30 year old woman is just It's gonna be okay, and you are okay And it's gonna just keep getting better and better Because I do believe in that, too. Like, I'm looking forward to my 50s. I'm hoping my 50s are just like the best decade ever. But I've thought that about each coming decade, quite honestly, like I I've never been one who's as tears were my glory years. Oh, God, no.

SPEAKER_00: It does. It keeps getting better. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: How about you? What would you tell your 30 year old self?

SPEAKER_00: I, when I look back, so like you, I wouldn't say that I look back with many regrets. Every year is better, every decade's better. That doesn't mean that there aren't trying times during those decades and years, but I think I would tell my 30-year-old self that to quit worrying about what other people think of you. I spent a lot of time, more time I think than I should have, Trying to make things perfect, trying to make things right, making sure that say, if I started, like I ran my first marathon in my thirties and I was a sprinter in high school and I never thought that I could run long distances and So I mostly didn't tell anybody I was doing it until after I finished it, because I didn't want to set myself up for what I perceived as somebody judging me for not doing what I said I was going to do. And so I've learned that Most people aren't paying any attention to what you're doing anyway, so you don't need to worry about their opinion. And if you're doing something that they don't approve of, then that probably says more about them than it does about you. So long as I know that I have good intentions, that what I'm doing makes sense to me. Now, that doesn't give you permission to go be an asshole. If what you are doing aligns with who you are, then Do that. Stop worrying about what other people think, because it's, you're never going to make everybody happy. It's exhausting. And it takes you so much further afield from who you truly are and what will make you feel like you're living in the best way for you. I guess that goes along with your giving no more fucks.

SPEAKER_01: Question number two. Giving the right fucks. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: The right ones. Yeah, we're only giving the right fucks now. Question number two. What have you loved most about being a midlife woman?

SPEAKER_01: It's funny, our minds can automatically go a little bit to, I don't like that, I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. So yes. And while you're thinking about that, I'll just mention that with my coaching clients, we spend a lot of time, like I said, on figuring out what they want. And most of the time they don't know what they want. So we start with, tell me about what you don't want. And then they can make this huge list of things that they don't want or experiences that they've had that they never want to have again. And we can start there for sure. But it's easier to like, oh, this isn't great. Now I've got chin whiskers and my back hurts all the time and all these other things that aren't great about midlife. But what have you loved most about being a midlife woman?

SPEAKER_01: I like focusing on what I love most. And I do feel like it ties into my answer to my first question. It's the flip of it. It's just like feeling. I do have a genuine sense, like I'm not shaky. I like who I am or what I want. And not to say that I would have ever described it when I was younger, that I was shaky on it, because I suppose if someone would have asked me, like, what do you want out of life? I probably would have been able to answer that, but it might have been a little less focused on the things that maybe are the best serving for me or it might've had something to do with like my family or, which is not just, that's very important, but I just think that it's really a great feeling to have this better sense of who I am and like in an unapologetic way. Like I feel a freedom to even speak up more. And I've done this even in my own marriage. And there's been times I can tell that Joe has been like, Oh, cause I'm having a midlife crisis. And it feels good though, to be using my voice more. Yeah. I just feel a little more sure of it. kind of the direction I want to go in my life and how I want to spend my time, who I want to spend my time with. And in things that maybe I don't want to say I was embarrassed about, but I wouldn't have necessarily told people because I wouldn't want to like, oh, maybe people might think that's weird. And I'm trying to think of a good example to give, but I guess it's just that feeling of, hey, this is who I am and I have my quirks. And maybe the quirks I used to be a little more like, oh, I don't want to show that because I want to appear all put together and I have it figured out. Like that facade, you want to show the world. for some reason when you're younger and now I'm like, maybe I am going to be that older lady in Walgreens who is wearing sweatpants and the stained shirt. And I'm not going to worry about it. That's not like defining who I am. Like, this is just the day I'm having and I happen to need to stop at Walgreens and whatever. Whereas when I was younger, I might've been more like, just a little more concerned with like, how am I in the world. It's interesting. It's almost like it's more performative in some ways when you're younger. I mean, not even like I would have thought I would be like that, but, but you just, you can be. This world is good. It's like social media. There's curated things that go out and I think I'm feeling a little more like, Hey, this is who I am. And yeah, I've got some quirks and not perfect and I'm okay to let the world know. that. So that's a good feeling. Doesn't mean that there isn't still some awkward moments and all of that, but I, it doesn't derail me like it maybe did when I was younger. God, did I say that? Oh God, people are going to hate or whatever. I'm now I'm a little more, but is that how you feel? Is that what I believe? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Okay. Move on then. Yeah. And because I feel that, and that's what I believe, I don't actually have to replay that conversation in my head 17 times. And the whole rumination thing, like you, I would say for me, it's so liberating being in midlife and knowing just who I am finally. I feel like you mentioned you use the word performative, and I feel like I have spent a lot of years of my life in this performer mode, being the person that I was expected to be. I was the oldest child. I'm the girl. So that's a whole birth order other issue that we're talking about. I was the straight A student. It was just everything was expected that I would do it well and I would get it done. And because of that, because I was so often in that performer role, the fixer role, I really I spent very little time focused on me. And because of that, oftentimes I would just be stressed out and burned out and exhausted just trying to be who I was and or who I thought everyone wanted me to be. And midlife for me has just been very liberating. It's like you said, if I want to go to Walgreens and my sweats and a dirty T-shirt, that's just who it is. It is what it is. I'm here and you either like me or you don't. And that's really, I'm not going to say it doesn't matter to me because I think we all still want to be liked, but it doesn't define me anymore.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. You know what I think of too is I think about- Thanks for asking though. Oh yeah, I totally wanted to hear your response to that.

SPEAKER_00: No one's thrown that back on me. And then of course the performer on me was like, okay, real quick, what are your answers? And then I was like, don't do that. Just answer them when they're asked. So thanks for asking.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's true. Welcome. I know. I know. I think that when you are used to being with the interviewer or I don't know, even as a writer, I'm like, I want it to sound a certain way when I write. I feel like I'm much more. I'm going to use the word like prolific or something because I had the time to go through and finesse it and make it sound the way I want it to sound. But it also, I love like the off the cuff, like just the conversational tone that you and I have been having. And the one other thing I just was going to say is I love when I see people interesting quirky sides, because I think that's what endears us to other people is like our personality and how unique each of us are. And I think when we get into a performative mode, I don't know about you, but I have a hard time around those people because I'm like, okay, I don't feel like I'm having this like genuine connection with you because I feel like you're performing for me. And yeah, so I tell myself that too. Like, hey, I want to show my interesting sides and maybe it's what to me, I think it might not be like a pretty side. But what if it's actually like a really interesting side that that's I view it one way and everyone else in the world is like, oh, that's that's really a cool thing. That's Heather or that's Laurie. That's how Laurie is. And it's a cool thing as opposed to trying to hide all of our unique characteristics and quirks.

SPEAKER_00: And you talked about storytelling at the beginning and just to bring it back around. When we share who we are, we share our stories, we share our experiences, then we're more real to people and we give them permission to be real back, to share their stories and also understand that It's all a little messy. None of us live the perfectly curated life that it shows on social media. None of us have it all figured out. Get comfortable with my mess and I'll accept yours right back.

SPEAKER_01: I like that a lot. Yes. I love the messiness. Let's all just be messy together. There you go.

SPEAKER_00: There you go. Thank you so much for this conversation, Heather. I've really, I've enjoyed it so much.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Lauriei. I've enjoyed it as well. And I've just spent a lot of fun getting to know you better. And I hope that we can keep talking and keep chatting and who knows, maybe we'll do more collaborations together in the future.

SPEAKER_00: I would love that.

Do you ever wish you had a community of midlife women you could go talk to about those big life questions that seem to pop up in midlife? Like, what do I want? What's my legacy? What's next for me? A community of women to have candid conversations with about all the things that come at us in midlife that no one else seems to be talking about. Changes in our bodies related to menopause, sure, but also changes in our relationships and family life and careers. Well, great news! The School of Midlife has launched a book club called Your Next Chapter. Each month, we'll be reading and discussing books that relate to the unique experiences of midlife women. It's absolutely free to join, and we'd love to have you meet up with us and add your voice to these important discussions. And this isn't like other book clubs, because if you didn't have time to finish the book, but you're still interested in the conversation, absolutely join us anyway because you'll still get so much out of the conversation. The book club is free to join, but you'll need to sign up. Click the sign up link in the show notes and you'll automatically receive your invitation to join us. Get signed up, grab this month's book, and start reading. And we'll look forward to seeing you at the next book club discussion, where together, we're helping each other make midlife our best life.