Logan Murray - 40 years of Standup, Working with Jerry Sadowitz as Bib and Bob, Teaching Greg Davies, Josh Widdicombe, and Rhod Gilbert

Welcome to episode ten of "Kidding," where I had the privilege of interviewing the incredible comedian, Logan Murray.  Logan, who is also one half of the infamous '90s double act 'Bib and Bob' with Jerry Sadowitz, has had a glittering showbiz career that will leave you in awe.From their West End run at the Criterion Theatre, where the police were called twice and critics hailed it as the best bad taste show ever, to Logan was the voice behind 'The Beano's Dennis the Menace and Gnasher TV Show.' He also played the character Ronnie Rigsby.

We dive deep into Logan's forty year journey in comedy, starting in alternative cabaret and transitioning into traditional stand-up comedy. He shares the challenges and rewards of the early days of stand-up, emphasizing that comedy is an individual art that requires the right attitude.

We also discuss the importance of learning from bad gigs and the value of structured comedy. Logan opens up about the wild times at the early Edinburgh Fringe and the significance of saying yes to every opportunity that comes your way.

We delve into Logan's role as a comedy tutor and the immense impact he has had on the comedy scene. His course, London Stands Up, is renowned for nurturing and shaping the careers of comedians such as Greg Greg Davies, Josh Widdicombe, Rhod Gilbert,  and we explore the creativity that comes from play and the power of embracing one's comedic voice. 

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Transcript

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So we're here with Logan Murray, a standup comedian from London. You've been a standup how long, Logan? Oh, God. Um, I started in 1984. So it's almost 40 years in it. Wow. I know. Scary. Very impressive. Everything your dad tells you about, Oh, you don't feel old. You feel that's me. I still, you know, I can't believe, you know, the occasional meet up. Trouble is I'll meet up with comedians, uh, you know, start at the same time as me. We only meet up at each other's Memorial when you die, honestly. And you know, it's been two minutes going, Oh, who the fuck it? Oh yeah, it's you. And I said, last one we went to, um, I said, we should try and meet up. Not at a funeral, but that hasn't happened. A couple of people have died since then. So it looks like be another funeral. Just so convenient. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just, it's a slow war of attrition now. Longest survivor, shouldn't be longest survivor convenient. It wasn't, it wasn't very funny, but he certainly had very good jeans, you know, so well, or just a good road safety. I don't know. So I met you looking at your, we'll say famous course. You're very well received. London stands up. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was magical. And I, I just found out about it from everyone else that recommended it. Yeah. Which is probably the best recommendation outside of a Google advert. Yeah. Well, I do, I do think the ex-participants have, I mean, I, you know, not to name drop, but they are, you know, like you were saying before the podcast, you know, like, um, somebody just won the, um, was it the oldest comedian of the year? They changed the name of it, the Leicester Square comedy theater. But, but Greg Davis to name drop was, um, he's such a good ambassador for this. So I, and it was like loads, loads of people end up doing the course and go, Oh, yes, I saw Greg Davis was that. And he said, Oh, I should do this. And I never know whether I think Greg's been genuine, but I also think it's a great way of palming people off because he's a lovely man. You wouldn't want to necessarily, um, tell somebody to piss off with you. You know, so, so yeah. Oh, and they hit him with, Oh, how do I become a standup comedian? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you should go look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a script in my bag. Do you want to read it? Oh, no, don't go away. Um, yeah, but I really enjoyed the course. Um, I do. I really enjoyed it. I just, uh, I think it's a very, it's a really nice little, um, harbor for a late middle-aged man, it really is just to find himself in, you know, cause it's, uh, I noticed, I guess about 2010, um, loads of, cause I started the, I started doing the courses. Well, I started doing stuff at university back in the late nineties. They, they, they just, I mean, just really poncy things like comedian and residents at middle-sex uni, uh, which was, was lovely. And, um, but I started doing the courses probably about 2001 and, uh, about 2010, loads of my mates were, you know, sort of 50 year old people who are finding it really difficult because there'd be really funny 20 or 30 year old comedians coming up behind them. And, you know, what, what could you do in one sense, what could you do to compete with that, you know, because they're arguably the hungrier, you know, they, they're, they're fresher and they've gotten different ideas. Also, please edit all this out, but when we started, I don't think, and I may have said this to you lot, but I don't think we had, um, such an innate sense of comedy grammar that you lot do like when we began, it was alternative, well, when we began, it was alternative cabaret, which is of course the, the term that, um, Tony Allen came up with, and it was literally cabaret. It was just like everyone's doing a really weird music hall type thing. There were three or four, there was Jerry Sadowitz, Jeremy Hardy, um, uh, John Dowie, um, Jenny Lacote, who I spoke and Mark Steele, who were doing standup and the rest of us would just do really weird, you know, wearing pith helmets and doing funny songs, you know, it was very sort of, you know, very bizarre, a mixture of punk and music. Cool. Really. Can you, can you, so what was the first gig you did then? Well, the very first gig I did was at the King's Head Crouch end. And, uh, we were very lucky when it just began, it was set up by, um, Pete Graham and Hugh Thomas. That's the Peter Graham still running it. And, uh, Hugh Thomas compared it for donkey's years. And, um, we got a year's residency there. So we, uh, I used to be this member of, um, a musical minimalist music ensemble. So this is before, so this is before the first comedy. No, well, this was, we were, we considered ourselves sort of, I mean, we were a weird act. They were all serious musicians in that we had a cellist and some opera singers and stuff, but we did go to quirky music. And I kept on pushing them more and more towards the comedy circuit because we could get four or five gigs a week. Sorry, just for me. So you were a musician before? No, no, I had no musical skills. They just asked me, we were on the same, we were on the same course together. You, this is, uh, when I was, when I was doing my first, my first, um, we were, uh, they all, they were all doing the music course and they finished and they just wanted somebody to, to be an MC for the group, a bit, a sort of, a bit like, but I'm not nearly as good as him, but a bit like sort of Viv Stanchel was in the, um, Bonzo Dog, Do Dog Band. They just wanted somebody, you know, to introduce the pieces and, um, How did you get any experience with any introduction of pieces? No, I mean, I, you know, I know, I never, I, you know, I, massive ego, low self you know what I mean? Um, but none of us did, none of us did at the time. And I remember a very, we did a gig, um, one of the first gigs we got was, um, outside of the, the resident, the year's residency at the Kingshead Crap Shed, which was brilliant because it was a great apprenticeship because you know, the first time you're on, the very first time you're on stage and you, you, you don't know what this adrenaline is doing, coursing through your body. And it's just like, it's like an out of body experience in it. And you know, the vein in your neck's going and you, it's almost too painful, you know, and your mouth is dry and you, well, because I had six other people to hide behind, so if my introduction, if I got lost in my introduction, I just go, and here's the next song, you know? And so, so it's quite an easy way to get over that, um, that sort of beginner's hump. Um, but like one of the first gigs we did outside of that was, um, there used to be this sort of good gig, but it was terrible. It was a place called the earth exchange. It was terrible because A, it was good because they paid you 30 quid. And that was like, Oh, a lot of money in those days, buy a house. Um, but they'd, um, they'd also give you a free vegetarian meal. They were like a vegetarian, um, cafe in Highgate. And it was really, I mean, I've been veggie, uh, since I was 15, but it's really worthy vegetarian, you know, it's like the, the hummus would be like sort of trying not to crack the plate when you dolloped it on you. Um, so you'd have a free meal once, but you wouldn't really have a free meal after that. And also I don't, I don't like eating before a gig. Don't know if you, but how you feel, but I think, you know, I don't know if this stomach issue is at all not worth it. No. So, but the, I remember the very, very first gig there was, uh, Jenny, uh, Claire and, uh, Julian, Clary and us, and, um, the, Julian was doing his, um, Joe and Colin fan club with Fanny the wonder dog at the time. And, uh, Jenny was not, she was doing very similar things to what I did in as much as she started as a comic poet and then her introductions got longer and longer. She'd probably disagree with that, but I think, and she, but perforce became a standup, um, but that, yeah, that was, so you'd see, you know, you'd see all these people at the ground level and, uh, you know, of course, almost, you know, loads of them have gone on to huge things and they never call. They never write. It's very lonely. I sit there by the phone. I sort of been doing today, sitting by the phone. So were you, when you were doing the musical act, were you writing material or are you just going up on the air? Okay. Yeah. So, so, um, but again, we had no idea. So we, honestly, they were great and they do, one of them wrote this fantastic piece of, um, I think it's called Schmelzer music, but it's like, um, it's sort of thing you'd imagine at a Romany wedding, all sort of violins, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, you know, it's all, um, and they called it last train to Oakwood because we were all based up at Middlesex uni as it then was. And it was, that was the nearest stop. Um, so I wrote this really long poem called the last train to Oakwood. Um, it was very sort of quasi Shakespearean. And, um, when I went solo that, that, I mean, it's, it sounds awful, but that was the basis of that was the, that was the, the highlight of the act was doing this five minute, you know, I mean, that, that partly got me on the property ladder. You know, I mean, it's just, it's so. We do a drama degree or something. No, no. Well, this is okay. Well, this, this is a bit you might want to cut, but I thought, I thought, um, I was very lazy at school and, um, I thought I'd cocked up my A levels as they then were. Um, in actual fact, I didn't, but by the time I realized I didn't, I'd already applied for an art school because I realized the only way I could get into a degree course and the only reason I want to get into degree courses. So I get three years free grant, you know, because I, because I was convinced at the time we'd all be dead by 25, you know, cause of world war three and stuff like that. So I thought, well, fuck it. Just have a good time. So, um, so I was, so I, my whole race on Debra was trying to get into, uh, uh, on some sort of degree course for free and then just, you know, come down to London and live, uh, you know, uh, a very wasteful lifestyle for three years. So, um, so because I, you need the three A levels to get in, I didn't think I was going to get three A levels, but I knew what you could do a year's foundation course in two A levels. By the time I realized I had three A levels, I'd already committed to doing the art thing and I thought I was going to be an artist. I thought it was going to be a really, I think I would have been a terrible graphic illustrator, but I got into, you know, when you go to school and the thing you're good at, you know, you, you best thing you are at geography. So you end up being a geography teacher, hating life. Um, well that's very much me. Then, so then I realized it, cause I'm very lazy. I realized that that was quite hard work, proper graphic illustrator. So I sort of veered more towards fine art, you know, painting and that and sculpture, and then even that was quite hard, you know, cause it's like, you can't prepare the canvas and stuff. So I mean, we're recording this in Spitalfield. It's sort of like, um, I got into what we now call installation work. So, you know, like, but in the time it was called performance arts. So I thought I'm really into performance art, you know, and it's just, it's really wanky stuff. It's not, you know, I've seen some terrible things over the years, you know, like somebody, somebody naked, uh, he's never been to the gym with sellotape wrapped around them several times and they're just, uh, they're just chopping tomatoes and throwing them into a, I've actually seen this, I saw this in Camden and they were throwing, they were throwing tomatoes in this, that 1983, and they're throwing tomatoes into a big bucket and there's a tape loop of some woman going suppers ready. And it was just like this fat person with, with like just sellotape all around them. Um, better than some open mics to be fair. So anyway, the point is I thought that was, we used to call that performance art. So I signed up for this thing, love, love very long winded answer to your question. I signed up for this thing called a performance arts degree and it wasn't performance art, it was performing arts, but they didn't call themselves that because they thought they're a bit poncy. Okay. So, so it was actually music, dance and drama. Well, I've, I've never done any of those things. Um, but they took me on and, uh, and I quite enjoyed it for three years. I bet the course it meant that was unemployable afterwards. So, you know, so I thought, I thought I might become an actor, but we didn't have any serious acting training there. Um, we had a lot of fun. Um, so I did a post-grad in acting and just, I started doing that, that group of musicians said, you want to, so I've been, I've been that the, the acting post-grad and, um, did the, we went to the Edinburgh festival. We had a great time. I mean, it, it's easy to sort of mythologize about the past, but it was very much, it was very sort of wild west. You know, nobody knew the only thing I, the only thing I wish I could change, which not even change. I just wish sometimes I'd realized it was going to last longer than six months. You know, because we, we just thought it was, people get bored of this after a while, then of course it's sort of grown into this huge, probably billion pound industry in this country alone. Oh, you're talking about comedy. Yeah. You're like, oh, it's going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you must've been having six. So the first time you did the musical, like comparing, I guess you were sort of doing, was it successful? Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. Um, I mean, they, Hugh used to compare this, the, the, he was a proper compare. Um, I like, I think, Oh, sorry. Okay. He's does it. No, but this is because you obviously to get the residency, you need to have had some success and not going to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We know they would have pulled it, but, but, um, but they were taking a check. We, you know, we taking a chance on, I mean, there was an act called the ice man. Um, and he would literally spend 20 minutes melting a block of ice and different ways that he'd file a bit off. He'd put a, he'd breathe on it. He'd, uh, and it was all that was done to us, like a musical tape loop. And, um, it, you know, sometimes it was awful. And then sometimes it was sublime and I'm, I'm sure he didn't know why. It was just sometimes the audience went, yeah. Um, Just like size. Yeah. And I think everyone was taking a chance, you know, so, so you could be. If you were consistently terrible, you wouldn't get booked, but if you had a duff night, they'd rebook you. So I can only imagine in the way of where it's just like you call them now and it's book in September and you get to five minutes, but it wasn't like that. Then it was a free for all for us. Yeah. And well, it used to be that, um, this, because there's a real sort of open spot ghetto now in London, I think if you want to progress in comedy, my gut feeling is it's probably easy progression to paid gigs outside of London. You know, there's, there's a lot of gigs around the M 25 that, that do pay quite well compared to getting paid, you know, nothing. Um, but, but so when I was starting out, uh, I'd be doing five minutes and I jam, I'd be jammed between there'd be three acts doing 20 and then the mean be doing five, the idea being if I was terrible, I wouldn't, you know, crash the evening, um, and back in those days, you'd go from five unpaid five. If the right bastard, you do another unpaid fine and then you move on to hopefully paid 10, which is half of what the 20 minute act was getting. Um, and then you, you know, if they liked you, you progressed to getting paid to 20 and then there was this brilliant period of time for about five years where promoters were phoning you cause there weren't enough acts. So, so that was quite cool. Yeah. Let me look at my diary. I can do it, you know? And it was, I couldn't believe, I mean, I still can't believe that people pay us. To enjoy yourself. I know we all have terrible evenings, but I think the reason they pay us is they're relying on our expertise to pull us out of a hole if it's a bad night, you know, cause on a good night, it's brilliant. People shouldn't be paying you for this, you know, but thank God they do. Back to the wild west bit. There were, there were, if you wanted to make a living back in the early eighties, you couldn't really rely on the earth exchange playing 30 quid, you know, every every few months, but you, you could do jonglers, which I think, I think when I did, it was something like 80 quid and there was only one venue. Um, then, uh, there was something called, um, cast new variety and, um, they run the Hackney empire now, but they, um, they used to run four or five gigs around London, if he got in with them, they do all auditions and I remember auditioning. This was at the group auditioning. Uh, I was on the same audition as Jeremy Hardy. Um, it was brilliant. I sound like that bloke, my word. So Shakespeare, he'll go, but you know, so it's like, ah, he's brilliant. And, um, he got in, he, they booked him immediately. Uh, and we got sort of noted and then we were booked the next series of gigs. So then they paid, you know, enough. Um, and the other one was the tunnel club, which Malcolm Hardy set up. He was like a massive legend. Um, I mean, a real, lovely man, but, but also, you know, very, you know, lovely bloke, lovely bloke, but incredibly, uh, right character. Like, uh, anyway, he ran the town club and, um, he would do, you know, do things like if somebody fell asleep in the, uh, in the front row, he'd wean their beer and, uh, uh, what else did he do? Uh, and he's, his standard thing was going, uh, is next step could be good. Could be shit. All right. Let me get you one. Um, and it was a rough club because they, the, the, the audience pride in themselves on heckling and, uh, thank you. I hope you don't mind me saying this, but a very, very, well, the funniest comics, I know is a guy called Noel James. I think it was him. He used to go on, uh, he went on with a blue face when he began just, uh, and, and they just went fuck off smurf. Uh, and I think Jim Tavere had the, he had the line I'm a schizophrenic. And before he came any further, somebody said, fuck off both of you. And there's somebody heckled somebody in Latin, you know, it's like, uh, and then that, and they throw things as well, you know, so they're really tough gig. How did he, how did they become that? Just over the shows. They just got a, they pride, the audience pride themselves on a sort of an adversarial, what can we do now? Club was the only place that if you got away with it, you'd have a moment's elation and then you think, oh fuck, I've got to come back in that. Really just like, like that dread sitting up for me anyway, sitting on me. Um, but yeah, so, so you had to do it cause that was, that was one of the ones that paid as well. So, you know, if you could, and there were no college gigs, there were no, there was very, there were no gigs really happening that I was aware of happening outside of London around that time. But you became a pro straight away. Like you were just, that was a job like after the musical. Yeah. Well, kind of, I mean, yeah, but in as, in as much as we were all blagging on, what, I mean, I, other comics might disagree, but we were professional acts, but we didn't know we were professional acts. We were just, you know, we were just getting booked by these plays. The whole thing was sort of pulled up by its bootstraps. You know, there was, there were people who were, um, that, you know, they call themselves a comedy producer. They blagged a room above a pub, you know, but then some of those people went on to, you know, being in much higher tax brackets than we'll ever be, you know? So, but, but it's so, there was no, it just all, I hate it when people go, it just sort of happened. It did. It sort of happened despite ourselves, I think. It sounds a lot more fun than a structured approach where it's like, no. Yeah. Well, I think there's a lot of, I mean, I don't know if you've, I haven't, in fact, I'm slagging it off. I've never really read it, but you know, there's an American comedian, Judy Carter, who she wrote a, like a book on how to do comedy. And, um, I'm sure, I'm sure it's got huge value. Um, but I just worry sometimes that there's, that there's a very prescriptive feeling comedy, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. You've got to, you know, like I always say in class, you know, if you're an artist, I mean, you might be uncomfortable with the phrase art for comedy, but it is an art, you know, is, and you're, you know, you're following your own obsessions and you're finding out, you know, what your inner idiots want to do. Uh, on that particular for this particular six months in exploring this subject or that subject objection with the Judy Carter thing, it was, it was thinking, well, this is a great way to craft a five minute set and that will make Hollywood producers love you. And then you might get cast as the kooky friend in a sitcom. So in that sense, it was good in terms of business, but imagine saying to Picasso, you know, don't know, mate, but abstract. Yeah. Just do proper faces. You know, it's like, not that I'm saying we're all Picasso, but, but, you know, you've got to, what's the point of trying to do a mild impression of what you think? We didn't get into this business to, of course we got into this business to please people, but we didn't get into this business to try and second guess what people, you know, want. I don't think we just Asking the choir guys, what do you want me to do? Yeah. Yeah. Please. Another rule of three gag. I'll do my funny dance now. I mean, there is obviously, there's an element of us that is a total whore and wants us to, you know, wants the audience to love us. I hope that's not too disparaging to any sex workers, but, but, but, you know, there's another part of us that just wants to be, you know, we, we want to sort of just throw the gauntlet, you know, fuck it, see what happens, you know, there we go, yeah, that's it. That's my art. That's my, you know, that's my, you know, I'm, you know, and, and I think I will, I feel a bit sad for some of your generation because I think you, a lot of people who do that, who come, not a lot, a few people on the course, the first thing that they have to stop doing is their impression of what they think a standup is. Cause if they're doing that, they're never going to find out what they're like as a standup, you know? Um, so yeah. So how do we destroy the establishment? Logan, does everyone just have to go wild and Well, the thing is that when it was all told alternative comedy back in the eighties and everyone was saying it's anti, you know, anti-racist, anti-sexist. And we're, we're trying to, you know, we're fighting against that trite politics and we're going to change the world in that. And as Nick Rebell said, yeah, it's brilliant. Nick's we had three conservative governments after, you know, so that worked, um, but, you know, yeah, but, but that phrase, alternative comedy was. We're all just individuals, right? And that in part, I know Tony Allen did come up with alternative cabaret, but the idea of alternative comedy, which is very much, um, championed by the listings magazines, it was time out and city limits. And they used to, they've just, they impart those journalists who worked on the comedy sections, really built up the comedy circuit, um, uh, you know, created this massive buzz about it for two, three years, um, longer, really, but they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were completely으면 dominant, yeah. And we're not going to talk about it till we get into it, this year. Right. Which, there was an who we hubs наши musketeers pope Berbeck was the only southern Kundalini, who thought pretty hey, for, um, so, yeah. But then our comedian in future, my booked process started with, um, became very鬼ish, not only completely are we a comedy, they were portions of it this year, but we did this once-over bizarre comedy that people kept saying, uh, was... McDonald's ad or something like that. And my personal thing would be, I wouldn't do them. Um, but I know a lot of comics who, who would, wouldn't see any, any problem with that, but so, so in a sense, I'm not that, not the alternative comedy was ever anti-capitalist or that, but, but, you know, the ideas like, you know, we're supposed to be, there's some degree of ethical behavior, but even that was, um, you can invoice me to therapy here cause I'm just banging on. But the, um, even that was, you know, we're anti-sexist, anti-racist, you know, we're, and yet despite that, it was mostly white male university educated men, men of a certain, um, you know, the ratio of, uh, you know, I think for every five man, men, for every five men, there might be one woman performer. Um, so this, so it wasn't real. And, and, you know, very few, I mean, you know, a handful of, of, of, of non-white performers and the, what am I trying to say here? The, so the art, but it was so anti-sexist, anti-racist, right? We're anti-sexist, anti-racist, but, but somehow we're allowed to do jokes about Welsh or somehow we're allowed to do jokes about ginger people, or we're allowed to do jokes about Americans. And it's of course Americans are a race, but it's a culture, but, but it was like, it still seemed quite xenophobic. Yeah. It's a pick and mix of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just like, it's just, and the thing you used to get my go is we go, oh yeah, no, we're, you know, we're, we're anti-sexist and anti-racist. And, and yet there was this massive, everyone decided they could pick on old people like pensioners, so, because they're funny and it was maybe. Hollow laugh because I was thinking, well, we're going to be, you know, all your jokes involving punchlines about them smelling of we in biscuits, it's a, why is that funny? And B that's us, you know, and you're not, you're not, it's not that you're, I mean, I can watch them back. No, they can watch their old jokes back and then be like, Oh, that applies to me. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's quite nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's generation. They cry through the tears. Yeah. Oh, I was, I was slightly optimistic. This blooded me urine. I should have mentioned that, but the, but you know, there's, it's easy to get lost by, I used to have this argument with lots of people in the, or discussions with lots of comics in the eighties. It's very easy to point the finger and go, ha ha ha, you're different. Therefore funny. And we all feel better about ourselves. It happened in the school yard. We feel better about ourselves because we're pointing out the person who's a wee bit different and we're going, Oh, you're weird, fatty or specky or whatever it is. Yeah. And we all feel better about ourselves as human beings because we're picking on the other, um, and obviously that element does exist in comedy, but it doesn't have to. And like, I always say, you know, you can be in a comic, so there always has to be a target to the joke, but you could be the target. You could be the idiot in the routine and it still makes everyone feel. They still, when you're pointing at the outsider, when Hitler's Hitler's go, yeah, bloody, you know, gay people, Jews, Romanies, communist, yeah, there are all the, all the other, the small group of, you know, going, yeah, we're better than that. Aren't we? You might want to edit this better. And, and, or, you know, or just use this as a, okay. Logan said Hitler was, um, but just to clarify, the hope is my point here. Um, they all feel better about, they feel more human because they're dehumanizing somebody else. Right. And they, they go away going, Oh yeah. Aren't we, you know, we're the in group in psychological terms. We feel much better about ourselves. Um, but you get exactly the same thing in comedy when you're the idiot in the routine, everyone goes, Oh yeah, I do that as well. You get that same mammalian bushy tailed feeling of, you know, oxytocin being released and you're thinking, Oh yeah, yeah, we're a group. Um, without having to demonize anyone, I think. And then you can do the attitude stuff you talk about in your book and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Um, uh, I mean, I, uh, Tony Allen, I have massive debt to, uh, Tony Allen wrote a book, um, called, I think it's, uh, it's called attitude, um, the secret of standup comedy or attitude one makes something of it secret standup comedy, but it's basically attitude is a big title. And, um, he, you know, he says exactly that, you know, if you, what's your, what's your attitude to the subject. So I'm always saying, what's your take on the subject? What's your, you know, how does your inner idiot feel about this? Are they happy? Are they sad? Do they worry about it? Are they aroused by it? All art mirrors life, right? And I think comedy must mirror the way we talk. And the way we talk is we'll say this and then we'll say that we'll say this and then we'll qualify it, you know, I'm going on holiday, uh, next month. Um, probably Cornwall, you know, that sort of thing. So you sort of, you're qualifying things down. You don't, you don't, you wouldn't arrive at a party and go, I'm having 10 days and Cornwall, you know, you'll sort of find your way to the conversation. And it's the same thing with comedy and, you know, they have this and then you go into that and you know, often, uh, and the only thing that twists it is our slightly extreme take on it, our idiot coming out and playing the, you know, are they, are they, should they, are they too obsessed about this subject? They like it too much. Are they, I'm so over it and they're so not over it, you know? So yeah, I think attitude is very, very important. That keeps you away from pointing to people being like, or we're being nice. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, if you can find a way of, uh, uh, pointing the finger at other people, but the more you're talking, it becomes obvious you're the idiot in the routine, then I think you're doing your job as the comedian. I mean, um, I hope Nick revel doesn't mind me quoting him. It's very old line that he, but it was funny. He, you know, if, if he, if the audience, he'd set up a deliberate misunderstanding and the audience had laugh and he'd look at them and go, oh yeah, Palestine's. And I thought it was so funny, like the idiot getting, you know, go, should you say for the signs and, and, and it was, it was just a funny, you know, moment. Um, and it's sort of, you know, so, so he's, you know, he, we're laughing at the fact that he's mocking the audience, but he's getting the word wrong. Yeah. You know, he's, he's, he's so it's a malaprop really. Um, but it's a, it's, it's a funny, it was, I'm ruining his joke. There's nothing wrong with it. You know, that thing about, you know, uh, the jokes like, was it Barry Christ said the jokes like dissecting jokes, like dissecting a frog, um, in the end, the frogs not happy, no one's happy. No one's happy. And there's this blood everywhere. I think I paraphrase him. Um, well, we'll bring it back to you then Logan. So with the professional gigs and stuff, um, did you have a weird gig? Loads. Oh, have you got any of just what came to mind when I said weird there? Well, the thing is the, I mean, we all die on our ass loads of times, uh, and, and they do keep you, they, you learn more from a bad gig than a good gig, but some of the, some of the. Benal bad gigs you, you forget about. And the only ones you remember are the ones where it was like, really, you know, just, just, just, there was, it was so bad. It was, it was memorable, you know, I mean, the best one, uh, I used to compare the, um, comedy tent at Glastonbury. Um, I will, I must've been 30. So it'd been sometime in the nineties. Um, and I was, I think the first year I did it, you know, when you're a new comic and you think I've got 20 minutes of material, I've got 20 minutes of material. And they asked me to MC and it was a six hour shift. So I thought, well, I've done that two minutes there, and then I can parcel out that other two minutes and you, you know, you do a few comparing gigs and you realize. You're the idiot coming up with the funny ideas, but when you start, it feels like it's a little pie. I've used that or, or they've talked about relationships. I can't do my relationship stuff now, you know, so it's like a finite amount. And, um, it was the third day of the, and they loved me the first two days. They loved me at the Glastonbury festival and the comedy center, you know, I was getting away with it and I was talking bollocks for England and I was doing little rinky-dink did last train to Oakwood did all the, you know, all these things I don't do anywhere, like that. Oh, to Cliff Richard's testicles, all these, these things that we, you know, and they all getting laughs. And then, um, they had a policy. This is basically the takeaway from this. I was shit. It was a shit gig. However, uh, and it's always your fault, right? However, uh, there was one extenuating circumstance. I hadn't been gigging that long. I'd only been doing about two, three years. And, um, the stage manager, uh, had a policy that you could never leave the stage empty, you know, you had to have something on, you couldn't call an interval. And because, you know, when you, hopefully most of us team players and just go, yeah, yeah, it's fine. You know, what does this mean? Sorry. Empty. What is your, the, sorry, not the MC, the, um, no, you couldn't leave the stage empty and you always had to bring, yeah, you know, so you couldn't, you couldn't have a, you couldn't have a dark period. Yeah. So the tech, the head tech for the venue, he said, you know, want to bloke stage managing the event stage manager, not MC. He, um, you know, said, you could, you know, you can't call in into it because it will have people drift away. So there's always got to be comedy happening in this tent and you've always got to be on stage while we're getting the next act on and you go, yes, sir. I'll do that. And, um, he was getting an M so I was doing some stuff and they liked it. And then the next act on was an, um, an improvising group. Sorry, it's such a long story, but it was an improvising group. So they all had to get miked up and then they're putting mics down on the stage so that they could hear, pick up any ambient sound. And he said, it'll probably take about five minutes rather than the usual two. No problem. So I did five minutes and I went, um, so anyway, I've got brilliant thing now. I've got an improv group and I looked aside and the tech guys going too long, and I went, who are about to come on stage, but not quite yet. Um, so, uh, who's been to a festival before, you know, so, and so from the audience point of view, they're thinking, why is he not bringing in the next act? Right. And then, and so it'd be about another five minutes of not very good crowd work, any goodwill I built up. You can feel ebbing away and people are chatting quite rightly, uh, and, uh, you know, me desperately trying to think of funny things to say, you're from Reading. Are you? Oh God, I don't know. You know, and, um, so anyway, so, uh, I think they're ready now. And of course they weren't ready. So the guys think keep it going. Right. So I went back and doing, uh, do about three or four more minutes and then people are just going, fuck off. Start one or two, but then the gate opens, the gate opens and they're all going, fuck off. I'm going, I really do want to fuck off. As far as they're concerned, they've just, they've seen this asshole who's just told you there's some acts on. We don't like you. Why do you get off? And I'm going, I, I have to, you know, I wasn't saying that, but my feeling was I have to stay here. And I'm looking at it and it was the first year they had police at the, um, uh, allowed in the, um, of the, on the grounds and, uh, and the massive comedy tent took 3000 people and it was so hot. They had the sides open so you can people see the rest of the festival. And this one policeman walked by not being any bother to anybody, anybody. And to try and, uh, you know, get back control. I just went, ah, yeah, look, look at, look at the fascist over there. Trying to control our fun. And it was like the audience just, you know, cause I'm pointing it that way. Looked over at him, you know, he's looks in the tent, they look at him and there's a maybe a nanosecond of silence. And then they'd turn back to me and go, still fuck off. So, and, uh, I was on for 40 minutes for 40 minutes. That was very harrowing. Uh, but I've got an exercise out of that that I do on the MC course, which is entirely about that. You can't get off stage. You just make everyone relive your experience. It's not about, it's not about teaching them any, it's just, uh, we're going to the glass to bring you higher in the tent. You did a, you did a part, what was the thing you did with Jerry Sadowitz? We did, um, we did a double act called, uh, bib and Bob, uh, which I think we started about 1996 and, um, we just, it was just two fingers to the industry. What really was because, because well, there were all these people coming up who, um, Jerry was massively, my memory is that Jerry is massively pissed off because he'd see people, he felt he was doing it for the art and the, and, um, then you'd see people who were doing it because they wanted to get on some sort of comedy panel show or the equivalent thereof, like, um, what was the improvising show that there were a few things on channel four that you could, um, and he thought this is, you know, the, the, it just, he was just quite cross about these people being professional. So that's awful. But trying to be trying to get to the next level. And his view was it's just, you know, this is, this is the, this standup is its own reward. This is what we're doing. I'm, I'm hoping not putting words in his mouth, but that's so, so his description of it was that it's just two fingers to the industry going, and it was just two idiots. I mean, the Edinburgh show was, um, I think at this, the, on the poster, it said, um, late night, pure aisle filth. Exactly what it was. It was, it was just two blokes messing around on stage. So no plan. No, we did have a show and it was, and it was, it was very, very tightly structured. I mean, all down to Jerry, all in complete down to Jerry. I was very professional. Yeah, no, really? No. Well, he's a magician. And, uh, so he's got, he's, he re you know, he's, he's very keen on structure and quite rightly. So I'd never thought about it. I was just bumbling around, do another joke. And he was like saying, like as a magician, he says, never give them the same trick twice. So it's like never, if you've got, if you've got something, say you're doing a really good, you know, dark rug pull joke. Um, and it's brilliant. And then you do another one that isn't quite so good. Then you do another, why do that? I just give them the best work, you know, or, or at least finish with the best one, you know, so I never really took into account, but he, he was, he was very good on that. Um, and we just get into Gala before. Yeah. Yeah. We just, we just mess around doing 20 minutes slots, uh, with 10 minutes slots at loads of gigs, like the guilty, I think we did the guilty P, which is all these gigs don't exist anymore. Um, and then, uh, Jerry at the time had, uh, refused to do solo standup because he was so pissed off with, um, various individuals in it. And, um, uh, just, you know, just wanted to, you know, have a break, I think. And he was adamant he wasn't going to come back to it. Um, and then we started doing these messing around things and the, and he quite enjoyed them. And then people saw that it was Jerry Satter, it's the one, the one who had the TV show that got, was on BBC and that they, you know, they talk about that. There's so many myths about Jerry. There's, there's so many, there's so many stories or worse. Only stories about Jerry where he can't compete with the myth that people have of him, like there'd be the Edinburgh festival, um, they'd be talking about some mad thing, the journalists, which will get some mad thing that Jerry did on one particular night at this place. And it was all made up bollocks because, you know, I was with them that night and we were both in the flat playing risk, you know, honestly, it was just like, but so it was, I think this is true for a lot of comics, uh, of that. You know, pre-internet it's very difficult to compete with the myth that people have of you from five years or 10 years or 20 years ago, you know, Oh God, did you see so-and-so do such-and-such and so was it, was it like that really? Um, so we have a break. We did this, some people who, uh, realized that they could possibly make money out of this, so they organized a tour and then, uh, sporadically we'd have a massive. Tiff break up and, uh, and then, and then two years later, we'd do another show and that go well for you. We're living together or anything where he is. Oh, no, no, we went, uh, we went entire, entirely lovers. No, but I mean, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but we lived very close. We're both in, uh, when we, he was best man to my first wedding. Um, so, uh, we both lived in Swiss cottage. He lived up in pinchy road at the time. So we were dead close to each other and we, he, he didn't like comics, but I wasn't, um, didn't like hanging around with comics, uh, for whatever reasons, but I don't, because I was doing a comedy poetry act at the time, I don't think he viewed me as any competition or any threat or, you know, or any worry about plagiarism, um, although I, I, um, I honestly think, uh, you know, there's a couple of lines which border that I used to do and the edges which border on plagiarism of Jerry, I think just, or I wouldn't have done him had I not been influenced by him. Just from hanging about though. I don't know if that's plagiarism though. Yeah. Unless you're going to a set and be like, I'll check one word. Yeah. Yeah. Um, did you share his opinion about the comics at the time? Is that why he's rather together as a fuck you? No, well, I just like, I just, I like the idea of the very first thing we did was, um, it started a very, very first thing we did together was called the fabulous falling over brothers and it was based. And we did at the Edinburgh festival, very first Edinburgh festival. So that was about 84 that I went to. And, um, there were three of us. So Tony Maud was the other one. Um, and we've just, it was just famous people falling over impressions of famous people. And then, um, when he got his TV show, the Paul Berries review on the BBC, he, we did a little spot of the little tiny, tiny blink and you miss it slot every, uh, every week on the show of the fabulous falling over brothers. Um, and it was it. Things that used to make him laugh. It won't, it won't read all this, but we do this, but there's one sketch where, um, we're doing some sort of magic, the wool sort of magical tricks, you know, that go horribly wrong. And one of them, uh, the conceit is that I somehow my hand gets cut off, right? And I fall out of shot and then, and then I've got a little squidgy thing of red and I'm sort of pumping it up into this. So Jerry's sort of carrying on and this is, but the way that the guy, the BBC cameraman filmed it is you can see me at the bottom and Jerry loved that. He said, that makes it, you know, and I was going, and he's going, no, no, no. Yeah. And because it was his show, you know, his name was above the title. He would insist on, uh, being exactly how he wanted, which is how it should be. I think. Um, well, I could talk about this doctor, it's, you know, therapy. Um, but what was your question? How did that apply to you? I can't remember, but, uh, what was the early French like? Was it obviously it's very different notes. What the Edinburgh French? Yeah. Was it just, uh, wild west vibes as well? Yeah. Kind. I mean, it's still, I think it still was, I wasn't, I, I hadn't put two and two together. I, I was very lucky. I did a few Edinburgh's, um, with various. Comics. Um, Jerry was still always doing the big stadiums and all the big venues. And, uh, I, we'd be blagging a space at the gilded balloon, me and some other people, and we put something on for many years, it didn't occur to me, um, that basically it's a trade show. Um, and I, that, I didn't call it that for about 12, 15 years. I was just going, having a laugh and, um, other people were going out there, having a laugh, but they're also thinking, well, I've got a product to show the producers that I'm capable of doing this. I mean, Milton Jones, his very first show joy rider was, um, brilliant. He did, he did seven discreet acts like, uh, I could be getting confused with the second show, but he'd come on with a big bed sheet over his head and go, hello, I'm the Antarctic. And they do lots and lots of jokes about that. We came on with a hula hoop and a crown and he's in profile. And he meant, I am a penny. And then he was doing this monologue as a penny. Um, and it was sort of made the audience go, uh, the producers go, oh, he does this. You know, so it's like, it is a trade show sort of feeling. Um, but for us, it wasn't, it was the wild west. It was just, let's get up, get drunk, get laid, go to the STD clinic, rinse and repeat. Um, so yeah, so it did feel paid off because you were all, you all were doing comedy anyway, so maybe it wasn't strategic, but you still ended up doing it. And yeah, I remember, but there was the first year I did it. I got talked into doing, um, really talked into doing a, uh, running, booking a venue for a, for a comedy cabaret night, um, and MC some of the evenings, it should have been me and Julian Clary, uh, and Julian Clary quite rightly after the first night went, this is shit and just pulled out and I'm going, hope you have to be a team player. And so I just running myself into the ground doing it. And that's Dave Cohen said, um, he said, have you got to get this Laswegian comic called Jerry Sadowitz on? He's really funny. So that, that was happening. The Edmmer festival, you'd sort of people go word of mouth to go get it. Um, so we first met, I remember one time we were up with, uh, so we've, I was doing this, you know, like everyone else does this, but it was such a shit venue and it was, it was, it was, it wasn't so much South Edinburgh as more sort of North Berwick miles away from the, from, it was beyond the pleasant, you know, there's no reason why anybody would want to go there. So we always struggle for an audience. But meanwhile, um, Jeremy Hardy was doing a three-hander show with Steve Edgar was another act. I can't remember who the other act was, but, but Steve Edgar, brilliant, weird comic at the time, uh, and Jeremy Hardy, obviously, and they, they're called men in suits or something. And they just all wore suits to give themselves a branding thing. And, um, I was talking about some press party and I remember Jeremy Hardy saying, do you know, be just much quicker if you just don't do their flies and offer them a hand job, say, come and see my funny show. And it always stuck in my mind, you know, that, that, um, yeah, so that was, that was the more trade show approach. Hand jobs are the future. Yeah. But, you know, we did all feel we were whoring ourselves out. So you just kept doing the show with him over, break up and then repeat the show. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I mean, there was, I mean, I mean, it's before the internet, so nobody knows about it, but it, it did. It did me more favours than it did him because he already had a profile that nobody really knew who I was. Um, but I've been, I've been lucky enough to be, I've been working with other people at the time and, um, I've been really lucky in my career, just get to play an awful lot with, you know, different other different and complimenting comedy brains. Um, so I've worked with Kathy Dunning, who was one of the funniest women, I think in the world, but she, she doesn't do it anymore because she, um, is one of the people who came up with the idea for the weakest link. So she, you know, she doesn't need to work ever again, I think. Um, but, you know, but so brilliant. But, uh, but I do miss her as a, she's such a funny clown on stage, really just drop her IQ, 30 points. Yeah. So that, anyway, why am I telling you this? So they're all, yeah, it was all good. And in the meantime, um, things will be happening. Like, um, there was this club in London called the fortnight club. Um, and it was basically it had, there was a sister club called every other Monday at the Camden head. Then we came every other Monday at the market tavern and the sister club was the fortnight club and they were the only places where professional comedians could do new material. So everyone played there. I can remember, um, Alan Davis and Eddie is odd comparing them and they were both doing their grand national material. And both with the same tropes in a horse, breaking his leg and go, it's all right, mate, I can walk it off. You know, all the, as they, you know, the same tropes, but they were just trying out the material, you know, um, and everyone, everyone's played it. I mean, uh, Lenny Henry came down, uh, and was, you know, trying out stuff for a TV show. Um, so that had a real vibe about it. And, and I was comparing as my character act, um, Ronnie Rigsby and, uh, and, uh, so I did that for about 30 years. Where did Ronnie come from? Well, I was doing, uh, I was doing, um, I was doing, um, I was doing, um, I was doing a kids show on ITV. And you know that, you know, that you've too young to remember this, but there's a show called nightmare, which was, um, it was very, very, I can't even call it virtual reality, but it was a bit like Dungeons and Dragons and there was a dungeon master and it was very successful around for several years. And they get three kids, one bloke, one kid puts a helmet on and he's completely blind and the other kids are going turn left, turn right, you know, no, no, it's a pit, uh, watch out for the dragon and all that. Um, and the producer came up with another version of that call virtually impossible, which was like cyber, cyber space. So I did the, um, I did the voice and the facial animation for this computer generated fish, and then he, he booked us in for a festival, uh, uh, go to an animation festival in Cannes. Do you want to go to, yeah, we'll go to animation festival in Cannes, brilliant in February. All right. We got there and it wasn't an animation festival. It was a festival for people who had made CD roms of, uh, encyclopedias and things like that. So we were bored out of our minds and in fairness, everyone else is bored out of their minds. Um, the guy who came up with this software or helped design the software for Codsby the fish, who was the presenter of this kids show on Fridays. On ITV. Um, he came up with this, it was really, um, quite revolutionary for the time. It sounds very old hat now, but it was, it was a 3d animation, which you could run on a, on a, a tabletop or a laptop. Um, and it gave the illusion of 3d and it was a face, a bald bloke with a little tiny mustache and a bow tie, and he could move right and left, just the head. And you could press a button in his eyebrows to go down or they'd pop. His eyes would pop. Uh, but the thing is when you spoke into the microphone, his mouth would move. So it was like an instant animation. And we were at this festival. He said, you might want to muck around with this. And we were so bored. And, um, he's the first thing he said was what's your name. And I said, my name is Ronnie Rigsby and I am here at the Can CD Ron festival celebrating 58 years in showbiz today. And then I could, they couldn't get me off it for the next three days. I was, they're going, we're going for lunch. No, I'll stay here. I'll stay here. And I was talking bollocks into there and people come around and laughing and they'd be coming back again. So I felt was onto something and it was really liberating for me because again, when you start as a comedian, you go, Oh yeah, that's material. That's, you know, part of that way. And this was just like coming out of me. It was just like a flow, like an energy, like a possession. And, um, I started blagging the computer, uh, equipment. Um, and the guy designed it came along to a couple of gigs. And then my girlfriend at the time, who was another comedian, she just said, well, why don't you just dress up like him? You prick. I did that for a while. And it, you know, when people start in comedy, it's a legitimate question to ask all the lights. You go, how'd you get into this? And how'd you get that? And invariably we go, well, you know, just things happen. And it sounds so vague, but it really does. It doesn't, you know, it's just like, obviously got put yourself out there. You know, you could be the most talented person in the world, but you won't be lucky unless you're throwing shit at the wall four times a week, you know what I mean? But I got a phone call, uh, from a woman, um, going, hello, uh, I'm Darren Bender's assistant who wants to set up a meeting, uh, for, for you, uh, to base the channel four program around you. And I thought it's one of my mates right. Why? Oh, really? We could sell Darren Bender. I mean, Darren Bender, Bender to go fuck himself and hung up. And then she called back and went, no, really? And I went, what? And it turns out there's this guy called Darren Bender, who was in charge of late night channel four, and he'd been coming to the fortnight club and he quite liked the character and he wants to do something. He didn't know what, but involving the Ronnie Rigsby character. And that morphed into this show called karaoke fish tank, um, which ran for two seasons at about three o'clock in the morning. Nobody saw it, but, but I was immensely proud of it. I don't know how it's, I don't think it'd stand up very well now, but I really loved it because I got, I was again, once again, a computer generated fish. So I don't know what that says about my career, but, um, but I got to slag off pop videos and this was years before they started doing that on pop world. So I felt, you know, people always, you know, so yeah, Kylie. And this is like, oh, you might want to, uh, you might want to pop a VCR in, uh, in a recorded for research purposes. Uh, you know, so I say, you know, this is, this is the boy band completely different from all the other boy bands we've done in the show. They're shit. I'm only joking. They're all shit, aren't they? You know, so it was things like that. And, um, I was dead chuffed with it. Um, but, but the point to that self-serving story is, you know, you're just doing the work, you've got no expectation. You think stand up is its own reward. And then some idiot calls you up and goes, do you want to do this? That's why we say on the standup course, and I know most people get this. Um, but I always say in the standup course, um, just say yes to everything. Just say, yeah, because it's easy for middle-class and go, well, actually, I don't know if I could write a comedy sitcom or I don't actually know whether I could do two minutes on this and a panel show or anything like that. Yeah. So yeah, because you know, can I act, could I act? Could I act? Well, yeah, you can act yourself, can't you? You know, so yeah, you can present, you're presenting yourself. You can write, you've written however many minutes of standup you've done. You, you could host a quiz show cause you're hosting a night, you know, just say yes, because you don't know if I'd said no, if I'd listened to my left. Half of my brain and taken the rational approach and been a graphic illustrator. I'll be so 37% more miserable than I am. The graphics will be pretty dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know, I know probably be burnt out, you know, and it'd be running a, you know, a very bitter antique shop somewhere in the children's, you know, I was on stage, you know, all that, but I designed the logo for Penguin, you know? But this, this has just been brilliant for me at the 40 year. I know it sounds awful of self-serving, but these 40 years has made me do things. I would not have anticipated when I started, you know, and it's, it's just been, I really like now. I mean, I still love gigging, but I really love running the workshops and watching you lot just light up. I just thought, you know, just, I'll give you a silly, silly little recipe instruction and you lot go, yeah. And you all do something completely different. And it's just like I always say, completely stolen from Winnicott. I always say, you know, all creativity, you know, you're all, you're all creativity comes out of play. We've got to play to generate anything that's worth a fuck for other people to enjoy. That's all art. It's all coming out and messing around. And it is so fun. You cultivate such a fun environment. Yeah. You leave with like withdrawal after you're like, Oh, what? We're not spending Saturday just running around. So, yeah, but also I put heroin in the water. Well, during the courses, you've had some like very famous alumni. Could you tell like with, well, Greg, do you? No, no. Well, no, I don't think Greg would, I don't think Greg would have necessarily thought he, I mean, he wants to make a career. I think you need to get him on the show, but I've never been able to tell. I mean, it sounds very diplomatic, but you know, when occasionally somebody goes, who's your comedy heroes or who's your favorite comedian? It's always you lot. It's the people I'm working with right now because you're doing stuff I've not seen before, you know, I'm doing some really stupid exercise, really end of the peer, you know, scenario, you know, saying one thing, but revealing another, something like that. And everyone plays a slightly different game in it. So, so I will happily name drop all the people, but, but I mean, recently somebody, somebody said, you know, Josh, we committed your course. Could you, could you tell? And no, not really. I mean, not in a bad way, but he was just as good and just in a completely different way, you know, equal, but different as everyone else. And there was, there was him and another guy who were very, very driven on the same course and they're both still doing standup, I believe, or they were before COVID, I mean, I think. So it wasn't really talent. It was more of they came in with like, how do I do X as quickly as possible? And that was the different. I mean, it's. They're very talented. Let me be clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it, but it is, I mean, I, there's no quote I, I attribute it to Alistair Crowley, but I think it was said by somebody else ages and ages before, but I remember reading one of his books and he said, you know, it's something that to paraphrase it and state in the bleed and obvious, but it's, uh, you know, you can be, you can be talented, you can be creative. You can be brilliant. Um, but if you don't have perseverance, it really doesn't matter. You know, the world's full of people going, ah, I did stand up once and we did five minutes for a charity gig. One time, you know, but I, but there's a brilliant, there's a book by, um, Alan Moore called Jerusalem, which I think is possibly one of the best books in the world, and I've, I've, I've gone through it about four or five times in lockdown and always get something new out of it. Um, it's all of life is there. Um, and one of the characters is a poet and, uh, it's just in the, um, he hasn't written anything for a while and then he has to realize that he says, you know, you don't just stuck with me the quote. And again, I'm ruining the text, but hope it doesn't spoil it. If anybody wants to read the book, but it's something like, if you're a poet, you write poetry, you hope to get financial award, but you do it anyway. It's like a disease. It comes out of you. You have to do it. The same thing. If you're a writer, you're right. You want to get paid. Um, you know, if you were a comic, you comic, you know, you, you, you, we can't do anything else, you know, certainly back in the early days, we couldn't do anything else, you know, the, the much easier ways to make a living. But we just want to do this, you know? Um, but, but, and then tie that in with the old thing about, was it Alan Watts? He said, you know, if you, if you do what you're good at, eventually somebody might pay you, you know, like me making the crap jewelry. I was actually going to ask you, it's not crap at all. It's well, it is a bit, the, uh, but it's very kind to say, but it's very, very primitive, but you know, after a few bits and pieces, you know, people say, well, can you make me one? You know, you could be very talented, but if you're not throwing it out to the tribe, they don't necessarily know, you know, so well, that seems like a great way to end it. Logan. Thank you very much. That was very wise. We don't think very much. Yes. Uh, yes. Um, so everyone should do the course obviously, so they can join the ranks of job, please stop me being unemployed. Yeah. I'd love to corrupt young minds and old minds. Have you got anything, any Instagram or anything to plug like that? Not really. I mean, I'm, I'm rubbish at, um, I'm, I am on Instagram. Uh, I think Logan Murray comedy guru. Um, and I've got presents. Yeah. On the face, but I've got my book out, which has been in third edition now. It's very good. I have, but Amazon, I know I probably told you this before this, uh, Amazon keep on changing. They, the publishers asked me to change the title and I write it. They send me new contract and I, I write the bare minimum to get the extra money. But so that, so it's the same book with a few thousand extra words in it, but the way Amazon market it, they make out as if it's two or three completely different books and I have got one, one star review on Amazon saying this book is exactly the same as the last book. It's the same bloody book. There's a banana cover on one of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the latest one. Um, I think the latest cover is, I think it's called get started in standup comedy. Um, well, people should check them out and then expect a couple of those new words for the fourth edition as well. That'll be exciting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if, if, uh, I don't have a major stroke, but I could, I could probably get dictated somebody, but, uh, you know, unless I die or get run over, uh, I'm not going anywhere. And I'm very, people want me. I never plan on retiring. So, you know, probably be running a course in London. Um, I know running short on time, but I don't know if you could time. Well, I've got, um, I'm looking forward to, uh, always look forward to the summer cause I start doing these weird gigs abroad, you know, so please tell me about one of those. Well, I've got one coming up in, um, I've got two actually coming up in Skiros in Greece. There's loads of the people teaching art and there's a, the first time I'm there, there's a brilliant novelist called Manit Rofi who wrote, um, Mermaid of the Black Conch that won a lot of awards and she's doing a writing course there and they've invited me to go along and, uh, teach comedy, comedy writing. Um, and that's always a laugh and it's, I mean, again, I'm not trying to sell it. Yeah, but it's, it's this Bay, uh, and a very secluded, um, Greek Island and it's just, that's all that's there. This is on that, that side of the Island. There's just a, it's just basically a community for a week or two weeks spending along you go and you know, people eat together, they work together. Some people are doing sort of self-help psychological type courses. Some people are in creative, like there's a mosaicist there, uh, one of the weeks I'm there and, um, so I'm really looking forward to that. And then also Steve, um, who runs hoopla, Impro who I think the brilliant Steve, Steve, Steve Rowe, um, he was booked to do the fifth week in Skiros and he had to pull out at the last moment. So they've asked me to do that one as well. So I'm getting to go to Greece twice. Well, everyone should go to one of your many works. Yes, please go twice. Go twice. Go twice. Um, you do MC courses, comedy courses, comedy writing. Yeah. Well, uh, if, I mean, there aren't that many Logan Murray's on the internet, so you can just Google me. There's a, there's a preacher and a jazz musician and a surfer and me. So all niche died in your own industries. That was good. Well, thank you everyone for listening. Um, please give it a five star on Spotify and Apple podcast. Thank you, Logan. Yeah. Thank you very much. You were excellent. Thank you very much.