Dane Baptiste - The First Black British Act To Be Nominated for a Comedy Award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival

Episode 16: Breaking Boundaries and Shaping Comedy with Dane Baptiste

On the sixteenth episode of Kidding, Reece Kidd sits down with the exceptional Dane Baptiste, a comedian known for his original and provocative style. Making history as the first Black British act to be nominated for a comedy award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2014, Dane has cemented his position as one of the most dynamic performers in the industry.

Born and raised in London, Dane has achieved remarkable success with his debut stand-up show "Citizen Dane," leading to sold-out runs at London’s Soho Theatre. His subsequent shows, including "Reasonable Doubts" and "G.O.D. (Gold. Oil. Drugs)", were met with critical acclaim, propelling Dane onto the world stage with a vast tour covering numerous territories.

His television appearances span an impressive array of platforms such as Live at the Apollo (BBC Two), Mock the Week (BBC Two), 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown (Channel 4), and The Stand Up Sketch Show (ITV2). Dane is also the creator, writer, and star of the first black sitcom commissioned by the BBC in 20 years, "Sunny D" (BBC Three/One), and hosts his own successful podcast "Dane Baptiste Questions Everything".

In this episode, Dane discusses his journey into comedy, the dynamics of comedy and HR, and the challenges of representation in the comedy scene. He talks about the power of art, the necessity to change the comedy landscape, and the importance of defining personal success. Reece and Dane also delve into the themes of emotional control, the role of observation in comedy, and the limitations and liberties of free speech.

The conversation uncovers Dane’s frustrations with the comedy industry, his encounters with trolls, and the crucial role of honesty in his comedic work. 

This episode provides a fresh perspective on comedy from one of its most pioneering voices, promising thought-provoking discussions, inspiring insights, and, of course, plenty of laughs. Listen in as Reece and Dane dive deep into the intricacies and challenges of the comedy world, highlighting the transformative power of humor along the way.

Dane's instagram

Follow Kidding on social media for clips, live event info and behind the scenes
Kidding Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kiddingpodcast/
Kidding Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kiddingpodcast
Kidding Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU49TsZVIbI7vak-EKOBSbA

Follow Reece:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reecek1dd/
Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reecekidd

Transcript

0:00

So I'm here with Dane Baptiste. In 2014 he became the first black British solo comic to be nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Award, Best Newcomer Prize at the Edinburgh French Festival for his debut, Citizen Dane. His second stand-up show, Reasonable Doubts, was again met with huge critical acclaim. His 2017 show, G.O.D. Gold, Oil and Drugs, examined the links between power, money and religion. He wrote and played the main character in the BBC sitcom, Sonny D. He created the satire show, Bemus. He has all the TV credits you can imagine, Live at the Apollo, etc. He is the host of the acclaimed podcast, Dane Baptiste Questions Everything. His new show, Babs Squirrel, will run from the 14th to the 27th of August this year in Edinburgh. And his special, where he talks about race, Chocolate Chip, will be out the 4th of August. Yes. And there's actually much, much more. Let's stick to the bullet points. Also, obviously people won't remember this shit otherwise. So make sure, we'll have to hand it over to him. But pleasure to be here, Rhys. Thank you very much for having me. No problem at all. Thank you for coming. It's all good. Yeah, so this podcast is just for new comedian interviews, established successful comedians to find out what's happening and stuff. So you already won me over with that. Established and successful. Don't hear that much from the new guys. So thank you very much, Rhys. Of course. Ask away. Yeah, actually, first time I've seen you doing live was with Russell Hex. Were you doing that concept show where you're both on stage? And I was very impressed. No, it was a pleasure. Thank you very much. And thank you for coming as well as a fellow comic. It's always good to get support from the community. But yeah, it was always a pleasure working with Russell as well. I think he's an amazing improviser and a massively charismatic comic. And yeah, always happy to work with him. We'll go way back. So it's all good. I'm ready to join his cult. If he ever starts one, he's got member number one. He can charge whatever fee wants and I'm there for so I've got an healthy appreciation for him. I think if Russell wanted to, he could. I think he's inclined to give a fuck about that many people at once. Well, let's take it the whole way back then. From my research, it was 2008 roughly, when you started? Well, do you know what I'd say? Cummatively, I think the first gig I ever did, which was a comedy gig, was in 2006, October 26th. And basically I had my first breakup and I had a lot of free time in the evenings. Surprisingly. And a friend of mine said he used to go to a comedy club. It was a Kojo's Comedy Funhouse, which used to be just off of Oxford Street. Yeah, it was Selfridges on Oxford Street. So just off of across the road, there's a shop, a place called Binney Street and there's like a burger and lobster there now. But it was like a bar, downstairs bar called Corks. And it used to be there every Sunday. And I used to go there and watch because I still like, I always loved comedy, but the idea of doing it and being a stand-up comic has never really entered into my head. And so a friend of mine was just like, you know what? My friend's funny, you should put him on. Kojo was like, fine, he's got two weeks to get some shit together. So my friend, I was like, yeah, I did it for you, bro. I don't remember you asking, but fair enough. But it was cool. So that's how I started the writing process then. And it was a good gig. And then I probably between 2006 and 2008, I probably did about like a handful of gigs. And I was just winging it because I was like, someone, I didn't know anything about comedy in terms of like how you get gigs, what you do on stage, how long you're supposed to do on stage, what you're supposed to accept, what you're not supposed to accept. So I was just winging it. And then about 2008, I kind of left it, I was working a job and I was like, that was fun. And it may be a fun hobby, but I'm gonna get a proper job. And then 2008 was when the credit crunch happened. Because my whole thing was about any kind of creative pursuit, because I always loved like, obviously, performing and entertaining was like, that's a fun hobby to do. And I enjoy doing it for friends and family and it's great icebreaker and it's part of my personality. But like, as I said, as the first black British person, like other than Richard Black, so Richard Black was like the last person I saw who was like famous for being funny. And in the early noughties, like he got crucified by TV, like people made him look like a prick. And I was like, well, I'm not doing that. I don't want that to happen to me. And so I was like, well, it's a fun thing to do. And then around 2008, when the credit crunch happened, I was like, oh, so you're telling me that if you do a normal job and you save your money into a pension, you still won't have that pension when you finish working. That's fucking insane. And that was like the last, I suppose, mental barrier I put myself to do comedy. So yeah, luckily I was also getting fucked at work as well. Getting fucked over at work. I had a horrible job working with horrible people. You had a string of horrible jobs from my day to day? Yeah, I've had a discipline there, every job I've ever done. I'm not a work person. I've got a lot of personality traits which do not suit the paradigm of working in an office. Cause if I, for example, I question authority, if what you say doesn't make sense, I also will don't respect hierarchy on the basis of tenure. Like if you're going to be in charge of me, you have to know what I'm doing more than I know what I'm doing because I just think that's logical. And I feel like everyone feels like that. I don't think I'm unique in that. I just think most people at some point in their life, I don't know what point happens in the same way that everyone has dreams about a job that they enjoy, people buried out or internalize it. And they kind of slot into this thing of being like, well, I'm just going to basically be a sycophant and suck as much corporate dick as I can to get where I need to be. Or I'm going to be a friend and I'm going to, for me, it's just, I just find the whole process kind of soul destroying. And I will just see things like the one job I used to work at on a job board, advertising jobs. When I started this job, it was great. Like I found like 80% of the people on my team were on coke. My line manager, it was so great. And the thing with me, I want to make it very clear. I don't have any delusions about me being funnier than anybody in the world, but what I truly believe is that I am a normal person surrounded by so much crazy shit. And I'm like, are you fucking serious? And then people just look at me like I'm the crazy one. I'm serious. So I work in this company. I'm there for like a month in the space of a month. My line manager goes to rehab, my team leader goes to rehab. And I'm fucking, my team leader showed me a picture of him on holiday with his girlfriend in Spain, where he met some Nigerians who were trafficking coke from Columbia to Spain, then to England. So he's on holiday in Spain. He's like, Dine, look at this, mate. I was so coked up. I pissed myself. I'm like, no way. He's like, you don't believe me. So he showed me at work. He showed me pictures of himself pissing on himself because he's coked off his face. Like, I don't know what other people was like on job training is he's telling me one time I've got so much coke with a nurse and there was a dog involved in a glass table. I'm like, where the fuck am I? Where am I? So surprisingly, he has to go to rehab to get clean. My, my line manager, she puts me in a disciplinary, she's like, you're not really doing the job properly. I'm like, well, no one showed me how to do the job properly. At one point, she is so drunk in a pub once. Have you, I bet you've never heard someone say to a woman, you're flying low. Men sometimes your zips are undone. I've never seen a woman with her flight undone and people being like, your vagina is showing. You have to zip up your jeans. So she goes to rehab and I'm like, what the fuck? Anyway, I left that job. I've, and then I work, I'm working. So the funny thing about the last job I did before I did comedy was that I was like, Dane, you need to be focused. You're getting older in your thirties. You're going to get me in your thirties soon. You need to focus on a, on a career. My God. I don't know how people believe in manifesting, but whatever I did was the opposite. Like fuck you. Like I had a manager, my manager, just to show you, my manager was on the apprentice. So that's to give you an idea, insight into her managerial skills. I'm working selling advertising. And at one point in a meeting, she was like, Oh, people don't look at adverts anyway. And I remember thinking to myself, I feel like that's probably true to an extent, but you shouldn't say that. It's going to be like, if you, if you, if you, if you were like a sergeant in the army and there's all these lance corpus of privacy, you're like, well, most of you are going to die anyway. Wars for more, wars for profit. You'd be like, you probably, that's not the motivational speech they need to hear. So that would be the kind of thing I would deal with. So I was on another disciplinary and I just, yeah, I just think I got to the point where I was thinking about like the economy and all the things. Cause I guess you overthink things. And I think with most people want to pack in like their job or packing something to pursue something they want, you'll, you'll procrastinate for whatever reasons you, you, you want to cause you're like, well, I have no, I don't know what I'm doing with this shit. But it just got to the point where I basically was like, Oh, I don't know what, fuck it. I quit this job. He just got, it was like one thing that happened where I was like, I went away on holiday. My manager gave away one of my sales leads to somebody else. Everyone on the team knew this. And when I came back, she stole it. And then she's like, you can fucking have it back. Fuck you then. And I'm like, don't talk to me like that, please. And after I said, don't talk to me like that, I got pulled into an office and then my manager was trying to give me an Alan sugar and like, you're aggressive and you know, your conduct and all this shit. And I was just like, ah, fuck you. I quit it. And no, I don't know how many people get the opportunity to say, fuck you. I quit. Normally people were, I'm giving my notice. I have four weeks notice. I'm going on garden and leave. Like that's how most people leave jobs. I was like, fuck this. I'm done. And I tell you that our weight came off my shoulders and my chest. I've only felt that very few times, but I encourage anybody to do that because it sounds mental, but most people do not even know how to respond. If you tell them, I quit, because to usually say you quit the power was gone. And I think that's the mentality that has carried me even throughout comedy, which is why I told that long story. But yeah, 2010, I was like, ah, fuck this. Cause even when they, I had like a exit interview and they were like, well, there were points in time. I was like, that didn't happen. They were like, what do you think? And I was like, bye. I just look at the office. So the office was like open plan like this, like glass and stuff. So you'd be at your desk there. I'd come in here and you'd see me go, oh, fuck this. Walk out. And then, yeah, I was like, right now time to just do. So then before I did comedy, I did like a creative writing course. So I've done comedy before, obviously. But I was like, I understand it, but I want to understand stagecraft. I want to understand like just how to do the whole thing properly rather than wing it. Cause when I was like looking at other comics and comics you admired or comics that I saw had a profile, one of the commonalities I saw was that a lot of people went to even stage school and people had like studied theater and performance. And I was like, well, I'm not going back to fucking stage. Cause I can't handle that. P-tag a drama. I can't handle drama people. I just don't have to stop. Not after this show experience here. I can't express to you the things I've seen in the workplaces that people are like, what? And I'm like, I'm fucking serious. I had, I remember I had a director, a commercial director of my, my team and other teams. And I'm telling you on the 1st of December, it was Christmas for him. He was not in the office. There was a pub across the road. If you wanted to ask him something corporate, you better go to the pub cause he ate in the office and more power to him. Fuck it. Cause nobody gave a fuck that it was, that job was so funny. Cause then I found out when I left it, there was loads of people that were still hitting their target when I was missing my target. I was like, how come I can't do it? And I found out that like years later, people would do stuff that they were renewing contracts that people that had agreed to. So they were like revolving the money and stuff. So there was like, when I was away, there was like a massive clawback of money from the company and they had to clamp down on people who was like all the commission they had earned. Let's pay it back. So I guess I've always been someone that has to go my own way as well. And I'll tell you why about that story as well. So anyway, I did an improv course and that was fun. And then I was at a comedy school and the comedy school is like a charity, but also a stage, a school where they do outreach. They'll do workshops in like prisons and they do workshops with like kids and at-risk youth, but they also do these improv classes. And I told them that I'd done comedy before and they were like, well, how seriously were you taking it? And I was like, well, I did a few gigs between 2006, 2008. And they were like, it's not very fucking seriously. So they were like, do this course, we'll do a showcase. And at the end of that, we'll give you a list of like open mic nights and gigs you can go to. So I did that course about six weeks, did a showcase at the end. Yeah. They gave you the list and then yeah, career started in earnest. From there, it was from like, yeah, 2011 around August. So I'll say around 2011 is probably when I actually did comedy, but when you accumulate all the years, then yeah, maybe 2010 onwards, but yeah, 2011 yeah, was when it started, I guess. And you just went from the get-go. You were like, okay, this has to be the career. No, that I can't go back. Yeah. I mean, I tried to go back because the thing is when you have a job in comedy, it's very frustrating. Like if you live in London, for example, let's say you have a job. When you finished your work at like maybe five, well, it was supposed to be nine to five, but most people finish at five 30. Well, you know, being fucking scammed by the way, they're not being contracted to do that. So most people hang around in the office till half five, quarter six, maybe half six, but comedy gigs don't normally start until eight. So you can fuck around and hang out in central London, waiting for the gigs to begin, which is a ball, like I imagined for people, or you can go home and have a change and whatever, get your material together, but that commute home and back out by the time you're ready to go to a gig, you're like, oh, so I did that for a bit and try to do that with a job. And I was like, can't do this man. Luckily my other company is so incompetent. They'd continue to pay me. Yeah. Not too much, but enough redundancy. So the fates had conspired in my favor. I remember we had one, there was one guy working for HR and he was not great. He was not a great human resource person as none of them are. Cause I worked out very early on, and I think most people don't work this out. Like if you know, if you have a grievance, you go to HR. Who the fuck does HR work for? So if I want a company and HR go, there's a problem with your company. I go, well, you can tell them to fuck off or you're fired. You wouldn't do anything with you. Because HR is like, it's a problem. You know, I can solve this problem by firing you and who are you going to go to for discrimination? No one. So shut up. It's like when they go, we need to investigate the corruption in the police. Who should do it? The police. Well, I find everything is fine. By the way, you're doing great. They're very mean. They go, are you sure? They go, yeah, by the way, I resent. So it's just a weird thing. So yeah, I started to do a job, but I started doing comedy. I was like, yeah, this basically has to work. And I kind of want to put myself in that position where there was no plan B and yeah, just try to hit the ground running the second time around. And yeah, it was a good run. Was there fear initially when you didn't have the support of like the day job, basically? There were more, there were more gigs, but they weren't really that well paid because there's open mic and open mic is obviously quite a saturated thing. And I'll tell, I can tell most comics as I experienced comic, making it through open mic is probably one of the hardest parts of the process. So just getting through that or holding fast onto that to start getting graduating from open mic to paid gigs is a big jump. So if you can do that, like it's a massive achievement and I hope that it makes it feel worth it because I remember the first time I got paid 50 quid for a gig, that feeling I've been paid exponentially more than that. But that first time you get 50 pounds for a gig, you're just like, there you go. Skyrocket. Yeah. You're like, um, I think you'll find it's professional comedian. What can I change on that? Basically. Yeah. And I've seen going to be pre approved for some gold credit card soon, but yeah, it's, um, so that was, I guess I was the first obstacle was like, uh, kind of graduating from open mic and, uh, and how did you go about doing that? I guess gigging and shit load, but I think that I also had experience whereby a lot of my earlier gigs were on what's referred to as the black circuit. Uh, so I was almost able to shuttle both circuits where I'd be playing rooms with predominantly white people, play rooms, predominantly black people. The thing about black and white circuits is that it doesn't necessarily mean that these rooms are exclusively one group of people that identify as a particular race. It's more about, I would say more the topicality and the themes that you might hear more often in a, uh, black circuit room versus like a mainstream. Cause if you go on the mainstream circuit, you might be able to do five minutes about wanking. If you do more than 30 seconds about wanking in a black room, they'll be like, maybe you need to go on a wank and get the fuck off the stage. I'm not here for this. It's because the black circuit is quite unique in that it arose out of like in the early noughties, a lot of, uh, hubs for black culture, like musical venues and stuff like that kind of closed down, particularly in London, loads of them closed down. So what happens, a lot of, uh, the nights promoters, nightclub promoters migrated their mailing lists and audiences from, uh, clubbing culture to comedy culture. And the way it would work is that they would have a comedy or mixed bill night, and then they would have an author party that would follow them. And so you were trying to perform for people who are like, this is nice, but I came here for women, not for this man's scathing observations about government corruption. Like, so it was kind of learning how to manage that, but, um, it was beneficial because it meant that like some of those rooms would be harsher, which would give me a much steeler resolve to deal with like playing more mainstream rooms, I should say. Um, but I guess it was, it was also for me, I guess the drive was a, I wanted to make sure I did like the creative writing. So I knew what the fuck I was talking about. A lot of research. I spent a lot of time reading up about British history, about British history with race relations, because I, what I didn't want to do is try to too much to be a mimic of the African-American comments. I looked up to like the Chappelle's and the Chris Rocks and I didn't want to be like just doing a poor homage to them. So I wanted to make sure I did a nuanced research about British history in terms of race relations and the like, and also British identity in general, because I also didn't want to have a very generic view of, you know, white Britons and, you know, or in general as well. So I just had to do a lot of that research. And to be honest with you, a lot of the barriers I came up against were what pushed me to have to develop much more unique material because, you know, as the first black British person to be nominated for a award in Edinburgh by myself, I'm not the first black British comic in the UK, but very clearly a lot of people had gone there and not had much success or had not been recognised. And the general consensus amongst black British comedians was, fuck Edinburgh, it's not for us. And the first time I went there, I think I'd gone there just to like check it out, like for a week and I ended up being on like a BBC showcase, because someone had seen me in like performing in London. So that's how I got on there. The second time I didn't really plan on going for that long and then ended up being in the Muse-Muse final. So that's why I ended up going to Edinburgh stuff as well. So I just kept finding myself in these places where I just didn't see anyone looking like me in these spaces and was dealing with, like I said, a lot of criticism from critics that were trying to play down the work I was doing. And most importantly, no agent gave a fuck about me. I had to be very clear. Like basically, the club I probably used to play the most was Up The Creek because I used to live in Leucham and that was the nearest club to me. And that's probably one of the only places that would give, other than Comedy Cafe, most people were really putting on that many black British acts or their literal policy was, we've got one, two on the same bill. It'd be like looking into a mirror for some people. Like they were like, it would just be like an echo. So my manager at the time, my manager, my ex-manager, I should say, used to run a night on a Thursday. You heard of The Blackout? So yeah, The Blackout before was a gong show, was just like a new act at night. And everybody would do five minutes and there'd be judges and they'd decide who goes through to a final. And the first thing is, for some reason, some of these judges would be like, not him. And I'd be like, but why? And that happened so many times that in the end, they said, I don't know what you've come second, like three times. Where this is going to say, fuck it, give it a go for a 10 minute on a Friday, see how it goes. And it went so well that basically I was just doing the 10 minutes, the open spot at The Creek for like 18 months. And then sometimes if someone dropped out and ended up getting a 20, and I was able to kind of work up towards 20s because the only other place that put on a lot of black acts was a top secret company, which is why they're probably one of the, as well as The Creek, probably one of the best comedy clubs in London. So as that went on for time, what my manager was also doing was that she was inviting industry, like agents to come to the nights to scout for new talent. And they'd be like, nah, nah. Nah. And one of them said that we already have a black act, we don't need to. And I probably shouldn't say who they are, but I don't give a fuck. It was Lisa Thomas. So, or an agent from Lisa Thomas said that. And to be honest, I didn't really give a shit, because at the time I'd obviously, like I said, I'd made a transition from being a salesperson to being paid to do comedy. So I was like, I don't give, and I didn't know about agents. I didn't know how any of this stuff worked. I didn't know what part of the industry this was. Like to me, an agent was a guy in America who's in the suit with a cigar goes, hey, I see a lot of guys and they don't know if they got it, but you've got it. That's what agent was. I didn't think it was like these other middle-class people who a lot of time want to be comics themselves and just trying to have a career that orbit the whole thing, whatever. So I was like, that's fine. Why don't you just be my agent? Because I'm getting paid gigs myself already. I can count. I don't see the point in like giving somebody money for work that I've made myself. So in terms of like my book or like my gigs, I worked up a healthy amount of gigs. I was before I had an agent, I was playing junglers by myself. I was playing like doing paid rooms, the top secret by myself. And this is before people knew what top secret was because before it was at Drury lane and had two or three floors. Now it used to be a small club downstairs on King street in Covent Garden in Africa center. And so before like mainstream actually cared about that club. I used to play that with other accounts all the time. And I said to my manager, look, I'm doing all right. So if TV or people get involved and you can oversee that stuff. So that's how UTC started. So if you're aware of UTC as an arts management, it started because I said to my manager, you just manage me. And then one day she is, she was like, um, I've quit my job. And I was like, what? And she was like, I'm going to manage you full time. And I was like, but I live with my mom. I don't have all this money yet, but yeah, that's kind of how it started. And so there was this, I guess, this joint objective of wanting to change the landscape of comedy in terms of like removing power from people who say stuff like we've got one black British act. We don't need to. And also making the scene much more reflective of the UK as a, in terms of it being a much more of a melting pot of people from different walks of life. And I guess after that did the first show in Edinburgh. And I think that's where I kind of transitioned from being a comic and on the, on the come up to being like a, I guess having some level of profile. So well, UTC has some monster comics now, so well done. Unbelievable. That's the biggest fuck you can say. Yeah, because a lot of, because with UTC, a lot of the comics that you see now, you know, we're all very talented in their own right, but the mainstream would not listen to them. And they were also had seen that when they even made attempts to transition that they weren't that supported. So when I got nominated for best newcomer, it was particularly pivotal to people cause it was like for black acts is like, that's an act that we know because we've gigged with him and we know that you don't have to die. Cause what normally happened was for a black act to be successful, like people look at Lenny Henry and understand that Lenny Henry is a very good actor and impressionist, but he don't write his material. So he's got Oxbridge guys writing his material, which is not going to relate to black people. And also then when it's not great, no one ever goes, that comedian is not very funny. Who wrote his material? People don't mean it's just his face that takes all the flack for it. And what you tend to find with a lot of my predecessors was if they transitioned to do mainstream, then they wouldn't play black rooms or they'd have to change their material so much that most people, not just black people, people at large wouldn't be able to relate to it unless you were someone who was part of understanding this bubble of mock the week and live at the Apollo and the panel show bubble. Unless they were diehard comedy fans, most people really know about it. So when I got nominated, it meant that not just for black British people, oh, you can actually be yourself and be successful. It was like all the guys that on the circuit, cause circuit comics were very different to Edinburgh comics. So the circuit comics were oh, you can actually be a circuit comedian who just plays comedy clubs and be considered a comedian. And so I think it definitely led to a lot of changes because then, I mean, I'd say most of the black British comics of my time, all either signed with or tried to sign with UTC off the back of that, cause they were like, well, this is, there is a path you can choose now, which you won't actually take away from what you're doing. So it was very cool to be a part of that way. But you must have been so frustrated to see all this talent and like just agents not picking up. Were you not just like, what is going on? It was crazy, but it was, but I, I, that was kind of my observation was like the showmanship and delivery that I saw from people on the circuit was like very different to what I was seeing in Edinburgh. And then, you know, there was just this weird schism where like Edinburgh comics, they would do Edinburgh, they might do Melbourne and Sydney, and then they're not working again for the next 11 months of the year. So I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. It felt good. Like if funny is funny. And so it was, yeah, it was, it was very frustrating. And I think it's similar to the frustration now where comics, you want to just perform on stage and write jokes, perform them are now competing with like influences and I suppose social media personalities where they might be able to produce content, which works for about, you know, 30 seconds or for a minute for the digital attention span, but to hold somebody in the room for like five minutes is something very different entirely. But I was somebody where I was again, just from my experiences in life was like, you know, fuck this. I'm, I quit. It was kind of mentally I had. So I was like, I'm not going to be a part of this or feed into this. I'm going to do it my own way. And yeah, I think it was good. It just, it just provided the doorway for a lot of people like myself to be able to, I guess, conceptualize a much better pathway to success. I did my show at half five in the bunker two at the Pleasance courtyard in 2014. And I would encourage people to look at all of the other acts that have done it in the same room at the same time since cause it was like, if that's where they did it, I'm going to do the same. Cause Larry Dean and Michael O'Dewale are two people I can name who did it the same room at the same time and both got nominated for best newcomer after that. So it's the room. They could be, but someone has to pick that room. But you've had that independence in your writing, I guess, cause we always do in these like big topics. I kind of, I suppose there'll probably be things I talk about and I guess it was because when I tried joke writing initially, it wouldn't really work for me. And I guess my, my comedy voice was more ho not by me to say funny stuff to my friends. Well, people would laugh at that, but where I see more of like the ruptuous laughter and stuff like that is that when I'll be talking about something that pissed me off, then people would be laughing at the way I would articulate it. So that's kind of where my, I guess my comedy voice, that's where the uniqueness comes from is that like, I'm just trying to write things that I think are true to me. And it might be the delivery of it or how I kind of, or the hyperbole that I use is just where the comedy comes from. And I guess it's just from the whole, whole affirmation or maximum people are like, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And so these are the things I just say out loud in order to just kind of process things that piss me off. Cause I guess I'm not somebody who ever wants to, never wanted to develop like a superiority complex and have something that I needed. Cause you could, cause you could be successful and it can take it out of you and you'll become quite better. And I never wanted to be the guy that if like a new comic is like, Oh, then can you shut up? I'm like, fuck that. Do you know how famous I am? How fucking dare you? Like, you know, I'm fucking Donkey Kong. You're fucking Mario. You got to climb these fucking stairs before you get to. So, yeah, I just, uh, just wanted to just, yeah, just not lose too much semblance of myself throughout comedy and stuff like that as well. And I just try and be, I'm quite a cerebral person, even off stage, and I find it very hard to lie to myself. So I guess all of my endeavors have been to just try and produce the most honest version of myself. Cause I feel like I'm never going to be lost for inspiration. And if I'm, you know, projected a true, true version of self. I mean, you're not getting pressured by like other comics or producers or anything to be like, why don't you just do more? No, do you know what I'd never get, I never really get told in earnest, like there's been people behind my back who've been like, if he smiled more, he would probably do a lot better. But then normally I look at them and be like, well, I don't think your version of success is kind of what I want. And also for me, it's like, no one could really tell me what success was because there wasn't a precedent to say if they, if you do this, you can be like this guy. Cause I look at this guy and be like, well, I'm not like him. So I don't want to be like him. So a lot of times they'd be like, oh, maybe write your sitcom this way. And you know, if you're a lot more like Josh Whiddicombe, people were like, I'm like, how the fuck am I going to be like Josh Whiddicombe? It couldn't be two people further on the aesthetic spectrum. Josh Whiddicombe is funny. But the reason he is funny is very different to the reason I'm funny. And there might be some intersectionality there, but also there was already a Josh Whiddicombe. So why do you need to is my logic. So I just, I guess the main thing for me was that people would may offer advice or what they think would work. But because I hadn't seen anybody be able to manifest that same success based on their own recommendations, I was like, well, it's fine. But I was just a lot of time doing something that other people weren't doing. So where does this like artistic side come from? Like I will do what I want and you will. It's a good question. And I feel like it's not a sentiment shared by everyone. There's a lot of people, as I'm sure you've seen, who profess to have certain principles or ideology. And if someone goes, here's some money and you get to be on this TV show. Women who? Women who? Let me take this wig off. I'm right. I'm a cisgender man. Let's go. Like for me, mainly because I never thought I'd be able to do this for a living. It's just something I just enjoy doing. So I can't, the way it's like, if you were told at birth, your son will never walk. And one day he just gets out and starts walking. Like you would use every opportunity you could to like walk, stride, run, jog, sprint, because you just have a new lease of life. And for me, that's how I see comedy. Like I was happy and was under the impression I would be doing a normal job, normal family and just live a banal ass life. And so a lot of happenstance that ended up in me being able to do what I want for a living. Like I just embrace it fully. Like I have fucking shitty days. Like everybody does. And I fucking curse this industry. And I curse the people in this industry and the gatekeepers. And I will throw proverbial rocks at them. But every day, and I heard another, there's a crime artist called Novelist. And I remember him saying, I wake up every day and I do what I want. And for me, that is what I'm chasing. I just think it's just the most, I think that art is really the, it's the only real thing humans have that gives us distinction from other animals or other life. It's only true, I think we can chronicle our existence. And yeah, I just think, I just, that's the thing, I feel like I have about human experience. And I just embrace it with everything I can, because, you know, especially with comedy, like being able to stand up in a room and say what you think. Not many people get to do that. And even if they do, it's normally, they're either lying or they're trying to please some kind of corporate entity, or they're conforming to other stuff. Most people do not enjoy the privilege of the same, what they think. Even when people, even the people, people that say free speech are paying for Twitter. That's how dumb they are. Free speech, you're paying for the speech. So it's for me, I just think it's just a massive human gift that, you know, I just prize about everything else. And just also because, but it's, it's more, I think it's just more about, I guess part of my procrastination, Jenny B Friday comedy was looking at people that I admired. And I found it very hard to find an artist or a performer who didn't also have their principles or their disposition feed into their art and vice versa. Like, you know, Bruce Lee just wasn't like an amazing martial artist. He was someone who, before Bruce Lee was in the States, like they only did some karate and judo. And then he opened up this whole new world and bridged this gap between like Hong Kong cinema and like the West. And, you know, I looked at someone like Chuck D and it's like, you were able to, you know, introduce like, he says that hip hop is African America's CNN. So again, you are hoping to open up the whole world to now when people say, don't believe the hype, they don't even think it's from Public Enemy. They don't remember it, but that's you've been able to enter into like common vernacular in the same way that like, if someone's a mad fan, you call them Stan from Eminem. So for me, it's like, I guess I'm always trying to chase that way where it's like, you can imp, I think art is a way you can imprint on culture and, you know, have people and leave your mark on people that doesn't involve money. And I don't think anything lasts when you use money to do it. I don't think anything lasts. And I think that's the craziest thing about most billionaires is that somewhere inside they know that that's why they do all the magic they do to prolong their lives, because they know that really most of us on a superficial basis are all equal in death. And the only way you're able to really subvert that is how you imprint on other people. And it's about, and then, but then on the same point, because infamy and fame are two fingers on the same hand is what you want your idea or what the ideation of you to represent. There are some people where it's like, when people think of you, they think what a fricking prick and it's about what you want. But then at the same time, no one's loved university and hated universally. So I guess, yeah, I guess I'm just trying to capture the human experience best I can, man, and just live the shit because I, because I spent so much of my time being like, I'm just going to have a regular life. So this is not that regular and it's not always great, but it's definitely, it's my choice and I've made it so long for you, Rhys, but essentially I say with people, my advice to comedians when you're doing it is that even if it doesn't go the way you want to, you're never going to be sitting at your desk or wherever having an existential crisis being like, what if I had, and that is, I think that is important and important bit of soothing that all humans can do for their mental health. Cause I also never wanted to be that guy to my kids being like, given the rage and ball speech, I could have been someone too, you know, but you're a fricking fertile mum. That's why I'm not where I could have been right there. I didn't want to be that person. So yeah, I just, yeah, just enjoy doing something I love, man. I don't think that I'm quite, I think it's human life is a very, it can be, especially how we live. If you don't have to deal with the day to day of just trying to feed and clothe yourself and keep yourself fed and watered and have shelter, then you're a lucky person. And so I'm just trying to embrace the gifts that I've been given really. So did it take you to get to the point where comedy was covering the basic necessities before you were like, okay, I'm true to myself. Or were you always? No, I think I was always that way because I just think it was because it was, I'd already seen that money alone won't make you happy. And so, and I guess I wanted to make some promises to myself before I did comedy earnest, where it was like, don't think about a number, because I think if I look at like your contemporaries in music, for example, I remember like if I was a rapper, for example, or rappers in general, there was a time when going gold as a rapper was amazing, but then some people went platinum. So then the gold post moved. Does it mean that the people that went gold contributed less? Not necessarily. Just that times change. And, you know, it's a, I guess it's about realizing that you're a brick in the wall more than anything. So I guess I, yeah, I just, I just, I guess I always just, I think it's good for you mentally, man. I just think it's as good for you mentally and stuff as well. I just think there's a, you'll deal with a lot of shit that will make you go, what the fuck am I doing? And a lot of it will be external as well. How many, like you have a list of things that when you tell people you do stand-up comedy, that their response is alone. Like you're just like, I know why people shoot up school sometimes. Like that's how much, that's how much of a prick people are. Like for me, comedy is up there for me with boxing or becoming a professional footballer. In that everyone has an opinion on it. Everyone thinks they can do it. Amongst their friends, everyone's a baller. Everyone can throw a punch. But in the same way that being funny and performing comedy are two different things, throwing a punch and boxing are two very different things. And they are the two, for me, they're almost the two sub-genres of their respective, the sport or the art form where comedy at its base level, no one gives a fuck about you or your feelings. They don't respect you and you've got to do it in pubs on a weekday. Do you know who's in a pub on a weekday at 10 o'clock? Alcoholics, alcoholics, Reese. And I thank those alcoholics because they were there. But really in the same way that those are the people that are also there at your early fights, you're a boxer, amateur fights, it's criminals and alcoholics that are mainly there. And you've got to work towards getting to these high echelons. There's very few people that can do this job, but it is a real climb. And so, yeah, you just have to, I just respect everyone that does it. And yeah, it can be very tough, but by that same token, you have to have some part of yourself and decide what your own goals are because the goalpost will always move. There will always be someone doing what you might perceive is better than you on paper, for example. The only thing you can control is your emotional reaction to these things and how you deal with certain things. And so there might be people watching being like, yeah, he's just saying that because he's poor. Well, do you know what? Alexander McQueen had a shitload of money and he lost his mom and that was enough. There was no amount that you're at a high in the height of fashion and hawk couture and you're respected, but having somebody you love not being around he couldn't manage it. And I don't take anything away from him. I completely understand that sentiment in the same way that same thing with Kate Spade. So I say that because trust me, if you make money for long enough, then you can become numb to that as well. And it's like, when you look at rappers again, for example, who brag about their money, if you already got the money and you're making so much money, you know what a dumb thing is to do? Take a record deal because they steal your money or they take 85%. You take 15. So anyone who's a savvy business person will know it's not a good deal to make. There's obviously something in these people esoterically where they need to be validated by telling people about their achievements. So, and the money doesn't do it for them. Like, you know, other people like Paul Sinner or Felix Dexter, Paul Sinner was a doctor. Michael Akideyri was a doctor. Felix Dexter was a trader solicitor. You know, these are considered professions which are at the height of culture or of our culture or society. But clearly there's something else in these men who are obviously very clearly studious, intelligent people, which they get from comedy and maybe allows them to really speak about the true intellectual truths or display their wit in a way that the jobs don't allow them to. There's something special about that. And, you know, I just feel like comedy is also, it's the honest form of politics that if you do it properly, you can definitely change minds of people. So I actually think it's the only way someone can change my mind. And I don't know if that's maybe ignorant or not. Not at all. That's cause that's how it works. Most people use jokes as an icebreaker. How many times you've seen people like shitting themselves over doing like a speech for as a maid of honor or speech as a best man. It's like, Oh, I need to make it funny at first and blah, blah, because they know laughter is a universal language and it allows, it can disarm people in order for you to get your point across. And so being able to do that very well, it's a massive amount of power. It's just how you kind of use that. And I guess that's the other thing as well is that like, I tell myself that once you're in certain positions, you're going to have to have the right mindset. So that's our reason. I guess I didn't necessarily know what it was going to be, but being an artist and, and having respect for yourself and what you do is important, especially the era of social media where a complete random can say you're fucking shit and I'll knock you out and you would never see who this person is. And so yeah, you need to be able to control those emotions. Where does all this philosophy come in? You just constantly reading Marcus. I think it's a natural, it's the natural progression of comedy because comedy, most of us do observations and observations really for most human beings, your ability to observe is basically limited to your five senses. And then the part is that most of us, our observations start as superficial, which is why when you go on, when most people go on stage at open mic level, you'll hear them say, I know what you're thinking. And the reason why is because they're aware that most people make their judgments on you based on their first perception of you. So then your show, most open mic, how the fuck do I start the show? What's my opening joke going to be? And some people make a big effort. I saw a guy go on stage with a delivery thing the other day, he had a delivery thing and he had the box like someone ordered delivery. And obviously it's like, it's pertinent to today, but I don't think you want to do that for the rest of your life. You don't want to be on tour, bringing on a delivery box all the time, but that's the way he wants to do it. I think it's cool. I want to make sure that's clear as well. It's all subjective, but it shows you that we're all just trying to give ourselves distinction when we go on stage. And I say that because then we talk observation of comedy is that talking about stuff on a skin and the surface level. But I think then for most of us, we're trying to scratch beneath the surface to find out what everybody makes everyone tick. Cause that's how as a comic, you'll be able to engage with everybody is that people always go, you didn't say what I was thinking. That's why that was really funny. Cause I don't, I think I don't want to say it, but you said it. That's also, we're trying to say something that is kind of metaphysical anyway. So I think the natural progression then is philosophy where it's like, we've now gone past the five senses and what makes how many people think. And now we're just trying to capture and understand human consciousness. So that's why stuff goes, I think it gets a bit more philosophical because it's a suppose like the large part of comedy and how you try to grow as an artist is working out the who and the what. And I'm just kind of get to that stage where I'm just trying to find out the why and the how. And I think that, yeah, once it, the more it becomes philosophical, I think that's when you kind of in that space, we're like really starting to get scratched beneath the surface. Cause especially now we're coming to everything's like political identity and how you kind of, what tribe you align yourself with, which is a strange thing because you think with digital media and the democratization of media, we would be able to find more instances of what links us all as people. But as you've seen, because we've never really, people have never really experienced democracy before. People only experienced democracy in politics, but even then, if you're under 18, then you don't get to experience that. So it's the first time I experienced in democracy. And instead of people talking about what brings us together, you can see that there's an insecurity there where not everyone's talking about what makes them different to everybody else. Cause everyone's so scared of losing themselves in a sea of voices and not being a part of more of an aristocracy. So we're like, well, I identify as this, I identify as that. And as someone who is 40 and been doing comedy and seeing some of these new trends, it's like, yeah, but we all, thematically, most of our lives are the same. Doesn't matter what you've got between your legs. It doesn't matter. You worry about, you're going to worry about being loved. You're going to worry about your experiences of love. You're going to recant your trauma in both of those aforementioned things. You're going to maybe worry about money depending on where you come from, but everyone is driven by the same things. And so I think comedy is about trying to tap into that. And you bring everyone together as well to explore in that. Yeah, it's about, it's about, that's the thing. It's like, but you can only, but the best way to do that as a human being is always by example. So it's like, this is the, let me show you the darker recesses of my mind and how that works. Which might, which normally gives people the courage to understand or accept their own, but doing all of that with the context of laughter makes that whole process much easier. That's why it comes out. It's, this is like therapy for me, but therapy is much more boring. It's much more boring. Well, this is a very selfish question on my part, but I'm trying to explore like the, like the bad thoughts that I'll have. Like, so for example, think like, oh, I'll take an example. It's a horrible example, but my brain will be like, oh, you should cheat. When I know I shouldn't, but I'll say that and it'll get a laugh, like the ideation of it. And then the other comics will come up to me and be like, oh, you shouldn't say that. And I'm going through this constant, I don't know if it's just this worry on the cycle, but it's really starting to like get to me. I'm like, cause I want to be like, I'm a flawed person. Which is it. That's exactly it. And in my experience, the people that act as if they don't have flaws are normally the most corrupt, most depraved people out there. And to deny that people have these inclinations, you are limiting yourself or hamstringing yourself artistically, as well as psychologically, like shutting off parts of your brain. I believe that's why you've got people in their stupas having dementia and shit like, and degenerative diseases, because their minds have had to donate so much energy and creative energy to, you know, shutting off these thoughts or negating these thoughts or not taking accountability for stuff or not acknowledging trauma that are manifesting other ways. It's like, since I've done comedy, I find it much harder to refer to somebody as crazy. Like we'd use like colloquial terms like that person's crazy, that person's tapped, that person's gone. But it's like now when I see somebody who may have had developmental disorder and it looks like they're talking to themselves, as a comic, that'd look crazy to me. Working out. They may have had a trauma as a child. And what they couldn't say to the person that was responsible for that at the time, they're saying now. And that's how they learn to process it. As a comedian, I, and to most people, I definitely suggest taking that walk inside of your own head. Cause that's your fucking head. These communities can take whatever, nobody else. Cause for me, I guess with comedy, I guess I always try to, and even with my podcast, I'm always trying to capture people in these two points, just before they go to sleep and where they just, when they wake up. Cause I believe there is this small, even if it's a nanosecond where just before you go to sleep or just before you wake up from a dream, you don't think about your race, gender, sexual orientation. You are a consciousness having an experience. When you wake up, there is a nanosecond where you wake up, maybe from a dream. You don't think about your dream as a man, your nationality, anything like that, because you don't necessarily think of those things in a dream. You'll just have it. A consciousness has having an experience. And for me, those are the two points where human beings are probably more connected with each other than any other time. So the more I can talk about those experiences, the better. For me, it's fine to show you're a flawed individual because it's also not just for you. We're a social species. You taking that walk means that somebody else doesn't necessarily have to do that or someone else is negating these feelings. And also as soon as you start not telling all of the story, you're beginning to lie to yourself and then you're going to feel like you struggle anyway. So, and at the end of the day, I believe, despite what you hear the comics talk about, freedom of sputrum, blah, blah, blah. As soon as you start centering yourself in your own head, you're already on the path to be getting like fucking yourself over and depriving yourself. Like you can't deprive yourself of free speech in your own head. That's your fucking head. And then the world we live in now, where we have so much capitalist surveillance and so much biometrics that can measure and move your behavior and stuff. This is probably the only time now at the point we're at now where what's in your mind still gets to be yours. Cause they're asking for it already. You go on Facebook, you go on Twitter. What's the first thing they ask you? What's on your mind? You don't even tell a person that shit. If you can't tell a person that shit, why are you going to tell a machine and not just a machine. That machine has people working on the other end who you're giving your innermost thoughts to. And the problem with that as well as that human beings were getting into this practice of giving our ghosts to the machine. And by that, I mean, like I said, for me, that feeling of being like, fuck this, I quit. You see, once you can quit one job, no one can hold you for nothing. You will be able to, anytime you're not enjoying yourself, you're like, fuck this. People don't know how to handle it. Cause it's very ready to someone say, I'm not doing this. And, and just walking away. Cause most people are able to dangle money or dangle stuff over you. If you are not resistant, people can't control you. And it's the same thing I think with concept for the ready is that if you start introducing controls into your own head, you're going to struggle. Cause it doesn't just mean I'm saying, oh, so you can just say racist or sexist stuff and blah, blah, blah. If you're going to say that, let's complete the journey and talk about why you have that statement. If you can, you can make a statement, what you want, but then to make that statement and then, well, that's just how I feel. Well, again, and even in that respect as a comic, you're not really doing yourself justice because people want to know, see you're working and how did you arrive at that point? Cause then what happens is at least when people do laugh, they'll be like, I don't agree with what you're saying, but I respect the fact that you made, I respect the journey you've got to that point. Cause everyone has periods in their life. Being a troll, we all have that experience so we can all understand it. When I'm driving, like if you had the stuff I said I was driving, I definitely wouldn't have a career. I'd be canceled. If I'm driving and I haven't been eaten, oh man, I've been doing chairman malnumbers. I'm fucking telling you. What's the worst piece of advice you hear media has been told? I think it's the same you've been told is that people being like regular people be like, oh, I just wish you wouldn't talk about this stuff. I want to talk about that stuff. I'm sorry. Why didn't you say anything when I wrote it in the first place? That's right. You weren't fucking there. And since you weren't fucking there, I'm not taking your input now. You weren't there to fucking mill the wheat, bring in the sheaths, bake the bread. So eat this toast or don't eat this fucking toast. But you don't get it. It's like I say, like, you know, if you don't like a comedy, yeah. And as it appears on a lineup, it's like a buffet of food for four. So you go for a buffet. I don't take, I don't like this dish. I like this dish. You build your own plate to consume. If you don't like the plate, you just leave it and go to the next one. You don't go in the kitchen and be like, shut this whole kitchen down. I don't know what's going on. Fuck off. No one's forced you to listen to this shit. So yeah, it's normally the worst information. The worst advice I normally receive is people telling me how to be myself. And how do you do that journey of like introspection? You just writing stuff down, if you have a thought or like? Sometimes, sometimes I think it's interesting. I think everyone has a different process. So sometimes you'll hear the comments, I spent all day writing and you'll be like, I don't fucking do that. What's wrong with me? And also no one does that. Yeah. Nobody does that. If anyone sits with you writing all day, they're getting paid a good bit of money for something. It's normally for somebody else. It's only if you're being paid to, but I just think everyone has a different process. And what I would say is, you know, if something grabs you or you think of something particularly poignant, just write it down. Even if it's like, I write a shitload of notes and I cut my phone and stuff. And sometimes it may not make sense. Or sometimes it might take a bit longer for me to work it out and how I can make that funny. But yeah, I normally just write stuff down or maybe an idea will kind of be in my head. And I'll share that with like, you know, friends and partners, stuff like that and concepts and just see how it works. And I was taught when I did this comedy course by another comedian called Mr. C, who's a great, been a great mentor. He was like, you can bank stuff and you can bin stuff. So if it's don't work and it's never worked, then probably bin it, but you can bank something where it's like, even if it's just a line and that line is still premature, too premature to like go on stage with, you can just keep working it and working away at it. And most of the questions that come with a comedy and like how to do this and what happens with this? They are, everyone will always have their own nuanced experience. But overall experience is the best teacher with comedy. There's no better one. Cause I'm sure the people go, comedy, what do you do if somebody heckles? Well, the same way, if I was having a conversation with you and I heard someone else say something, it's the same thing. If it's not worth addressing and they're walking past, I would just carry on the same way. If a heckler doesn't disrupt the show, I'll just carry on. If it is disrupting the show, I might address it. But, you know, most hecklers are not that brave and it doesn't really require much at the end of the day. But I'd say, yeah, for my process is normally just thinking of stuff. And through experience, I've learned that some stuff I can be like, yeah, that's going to work. And then other stuff, like I did a joke recently about the little mermaid. It has not gone well. And it's not there yet, but there's enough of a premise that if I work it, I'm sure it would be funny, but it might even transpire that I'm not the person to tell that joke because I'm also in my forties and why do I need to have an opinion? I don't. So when it's not going well, do you just, do you just revert back? What's the gear you already does? I think acknowledging it is the best part. If I'm on stage, they don't work. I'd be like, yeah, we tried. If you get turbulence on a flight and a pilot was like, this flight is going great. You'd be like, that's when you get more worried. You get more worried. Yeah. And you've probably seen comics. You're like, does he not know this is not going well? And there's some people like that. You've probably seen it yourself. You're like, sometimes you've got power through, but yeah, it's a, I just think it's about, it's about being honest and a lot of audience members are along for that ride. They want to be a part of that creative process because comedy is almost like you're trying to emulate conversation. And in the same way, if you have a conversation, you might be like, you know what? I'm actually, I said that, but I also had too much weed before I said it. And people will understand it. People laugh a lot from that kind of honesty. I think that's what works the best. I just think it's a, that's the thing people, if people want to be told what they want to hear, then they need to go speak to a politician. You want to hear the truth. Then that's what comedy is for. So if you had to form a super comedian from three comedians and you can steal like one thing from each of them, what would you, who would you combine? That's a really good question actually. I guess I would go for a combination of Bill Hicks, because I guess I do aspire to have that philosophical aspect of my work. Dave Chappelle, who I think is on the trajectory to transcending into comedy and philosophy at the same time. And, hmm. Hmm. Uh. Do you know who I like lately? Abby Wong. Cause I feel like she's so funny, so talented. And I saw beef quite recently, only like a couple of months ago. And I was like, this is amazing. It's so good. Cause it's so good. Cause it's good because it's funny, but it's not trying. I don't think it's trying to push for like slapstick funny, even though there are slapstick moments in it. And I think, I don't, I mean, I don't have much experience she has, but I just think as an actress, the transition and the range that she showed, amazing. I think it's always good where there is a relatable archetype, which you sometimes find quite rare in like drama or dramedy or whatever it is doing. But, um, I also just think Abby is, Wong is coming from a perspective, which we've not seen in comedy for a little while. So maybe those three would be my Frankenstein of comedy. Well, thank you very much for coming. Thank you for having me, man. I feel like I've talked your ear off and it's been rambling. So sorry to the, no, that wasn't as cool hearing thing I've ever heard. I didn't tell you at the time, but I had been fired recently. So you're preaching to the choir cause I was like, oh, this is all, this is awful. I've always worked in startup. So I was like, I might've been a bit dangerous this interview at this exact time. Cause I'm feeling very pumped, but you're good. Act on it. Fuck them. Fuck them. And the specials like this week. Yeah. So this one, no, this week I'm going to be doing previews, but I have a special. So I did, I did a show called the chocolate chip, which was, uh, before the pandemic hit, uh, and then finished doing a few shows after the pandemic. But, uh, my show, the chocolate chip is out on the 4th of August. It'll be available on YouTube in conjunction with a hundred pound gorilla. So if you follow a hundred pound gorilla, look it out for it there or, um, yeah, find me online, uh, for more information and updates. But, um, yeah, I hope people check it out. I hope you will enjoy I think that you will. And, uh, if you're going to Edinburgh, then you can catch me on the free fringe. I'm doing a monkey barrel, uh, at four 15 at the hive one. And my show is called back square. So come and check it out. If you are a regular comedian that likes jokes, there will be no, there'll be no shit at 40 minutes. There'll be no gimmicks or bells and whistles. I just be saying funny shit for 50 minutes or some change. So come and check it out please. And thank you for having me. No problem at all. Yeah. If you've enjoyed the episode, uh, give it a like on apple podcast or Spotify. Um, we're posting reels and stuff on kind of so follow can podcast for more information and I'm going to see your show. So you'll probably see me there as well. And I'll be dying laughing. So thank you so much. And maybe a spliff when it's legal, when it's legal, or when it's not legal. I'm going to fuck. And you've got bigger fish to fry. Thank you. You can see me coughing. Thank you. No, thank you, man.