Jack Hester: Winning Gong Shows, Performing Under Pressure and Getting To An Hour

In the 20th episode of Kidding, Reece Kidd is in conversation with the captivating Irish comedian Jack Hester, who brings the essence of the traditional Gaelic Seanchai, the revered storyteller, to the modern stage.

Jack Hester is a gong show maestro, emerging victorious at comedy hotspots like the Comedy Store, Up the Creek, the Frog and Bucket, and Top Secret. With a dynamic and high-energy performance style, Jack's humor often draws comparisons to the legendary Dave Allen.

As a child, Jack harbored dreams of becoming the Taoiseach (Prime Minister of Ireland), aspiring to inspire and uplift his community. However, he recognized the abundance of jesters in politics and chose a different path—comedy. This decision allowed him to traverse the globe, sharing tales and laughter to lift spirits, akin to the role of a Seanchai.

In this episode, Jack candidly shares his journey, from swiftly entering the comedy scene to contemplating the profundities of Steve Jobs' calligraphy speech. He reflects on his decision to pick comedy over politics and delves into the intricate connection between stand-up and public speaking.

Jack and Reece explore the world of bringer gigs, the guilt that sometimes accompanies comedy, and the art of bouncing back from a bad set. Jack recalls a gig that was both nightmarish and transformational, shedding light on the unexpected benefits of seemingly disastrous performances.

Energetic performances are Jack's forte, and he reveals the techniques and acting principles he employs to engage the audience deeply. Gong shows and club comedy dynamics, the nuances of matching audience energy, and the unique challenges of outdoor venues come under the spotlight as well.

The episode meanders through intriguing discussions, touching on topics as diverse as watching the camera during procedures, the power of daydreaming during mundane tasks, and the transformative boot camp that is the Edinburgh Fringe. Jack even offers his colorful perspective on Brexit in a classic Irish rant.

With insights into social media strategy and musings on the balance between career stability and freedom, this episode encapsulates the essence of Jack's comedic philosophy. As Jack's vibrant storytelling unfolds, listeners are in for an hour of laughter, wisdom, and a genuine peek into the life and mind of a modern-day Seanchai.

Join Reece and Jack for an entertaining and enlightening conversation that underscores the power of comedy to connect, inspire, and heal.

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Transcript

0:00

So I'm here with Jack Hester. He's going up to Edinburgh this year with Dirty Fec and Egypt. Dirty Fec and Egypt, yeah. And you're going to be in your MC in the AAA? MC in the AAA every night at Underbelly. Underbelly. And in the past you've won all the gong shows. Well, most of them, yeah. Ah, the big one. I won all the biggies. I won all of it. That was my kind of main thing. I didn't really, I didn't understand, I knew very little about comedy. I'm very naive. Very naive to the point like I've had a dumb and dumb, dumber moment in comedy where very early an agent came up to speak to me and I sort of went, they paid me a compliment and I went, thank you and walked away. So like clueless, right? Clueless. And I'm a very, very direct, mathematical, direct kind of like I just look at like I set an objective and then I'm just like, what's the most direct route to this objective? And my objective was I want to perform in the comedy store. How do you get performed there? You win the gong. So I did all the other gongs to practice for the comedy store gong. And how quickly were you doing gong shows when you started? Oh, my fourth gig. My fourth gig was King Kong in London. Honestly, honestly, I'm not even messing with you, right? I did, I had done three gigs, right? And the three gigs I had done, one of them was called Cockney Comedy, which is in Bettanell Green and Darren, Darren, the pun guy, what's his name? I can't think of his name now. I can't remember his name. But Darren, he ran that and like, it was like 12, you were basically performing to other comedians. It's like 12 people, you'd have one or two real audience. Did that twice. Did another gig in Archer, similar kind of thing, like performing 12, 13 people. It was one of those gigs where like the comedians in the first half would leave and you would, I remember like if the audience went from 12 to 8 being like, oh, thank fuck for that. I'm glad some of them left. And then three of those went to King Kong. And this is how mad, how deluded you have to be to do comedy. Watch the first few people and was like, I think I'm going to have a shot here. It was actually the bizarre, it's quite a bizarre King Kong because I jumped on the stage with so much confidence, right? And one of the things I did when I started, and it's a classic kind of amateur kind of thing, you do stars, I just talked really fast, like really fast. So I would say what I thought was a joke, but I wouldn't stop for you to laugh. I'd be straight on. So I'll never forget, I remember jumping up on the stage and there was a couple in the front row and the girl nudged her boyfriend and I could see her going, this guy would be good. Right. That's the comfort. Like I tricked that audience, like psychological mind trick. And I spoke nonstop for two minutes and no one laughed for two minutes, but it took them two minutes to realize I had nothing. So like it wasn't humiliating or it wasn't like, it was not, you know, people talk about being humiliated and everything like that. But I was very discombobulated, like because I genuinely, I'd done my three gigs. I'd made people laugh. I didn't know what had gone wrong. Why did you go, why did you start comedy then? The starting companies, have you ever seen Steve Jobs join the dots speech? Do you know that speech? I think comedy, that speech and comedy for me is very, I give it a summary for people. Okay. So the Steve Jobs joined the dots thing is, it's quite long, but he basically says you can't join the dots looking forward. You can only join and look him back. He went to university. He didn't want to go to university. So instead of dropping out, he didn't want to upset his parents. He went to a calligraphy class and he went to the calligraphy class because it felt like the right thing to do, even though rationally he couldn't have explained why he was doing it. Years later, he set up Apple. One of the things that helped Apple stand out was the calligraphy and, and, and, you know, he, yeah. So he was able to look back and go, I didn't know why I did that, but it did that, but it was all leading to making computers. So somewhere in him, he knew he was going to make computers, but he didn't know. And I, I felt the same with comedy. I felt like I did a lot of things before comedy that turned out to be very beneficial to me. Once I started doing comedy, I don't know if we're allowed to, and you can cut it out if we're not allowed to, but you were trying to be the Irish prime minister. No, well, that was my dad was a politician. So I grew up in a house that was obsessed with politics. Like every meal in my house, politics was spoken. I met loads of politicians growing up. And I think a lot of people wanted me to be a politician. Like my mother would have, my parents would have loved, probably my mother more than my dad, because my dad did it. So he knows the downside of it. My mother would have loved for me to be a politician, but there was a lot of people in the community, there was a lot of people in the party. Like from a young age, everyone was telling me, you know, you'll follow your dad and do this. And it was a weird kind of thing because I, I sort of believed in myself when I was younger. I, I, I believed it, but I never felt it. So I never, my goat was never telling me to do it. It would have been, it would have been a massive mistake if I had done it, because I would have been doing it for all the wrong reasons, because my, my goat, honestly, honestly, I'd have been doing it for all the wrong reasons, because my goat wasn't telling me to do it. It was more a case of like, my dad's worked really hard, got a bit of a name for himself and got himself in a position. I, I can, I can benefit from his hard work. Do you know what I mean? And it's almost like that's, well, it's a massive like opportunity not to entertain. You can't not entertain. And I did, there was a lot of parts to politics that I loved. I loved canvassing. I loved calling people's house and asking, which is the maddest part, which is the bit that people hate. Like, I did like that bit. And I did like, I did like the bit where people phone you up, like Parish Pump politics, where people phone you up and ask you, like, I loved all that side of it. If I'm completely honest, like the dinner dances is the bit that just, I hated them. Why did you hate the dinner dances? Can't dance? No, I just, I went to dinner dances with my parents and I just hate them. I just find them, I just find them really irritating. Like, I just, I couldn't imagine having to go to social, like you have to schmooze, you have to do all that kind of stuff. And I just, I couldn't see myself ever really, really enjoying that. Have you been back to dinner dance to perform? No, no, no. Yeah, I don't. It's a very, but politics is very hard. Like, it's very, very hard. Like, it's, the other thing too is, I always seen, you ever look at, you know, the way they do pictures of before and after methamphetamine or something. They should do that for politics. I'm not fucking joking. They should have a picture of before they went into politics after. I was like Obama when you said that. I was like in the Obama photo where he just like, he just mangled by the end of it. And people say he aged a lot, but most people are way worse than Obama because he was healthy, he was exercising. Like, politics knocks the shit out of you. Like, there's this program in Ireland called Reel in Indie Airs and they always show like, you know, the new, every time they'd show an election year, they'd show you the new politicians who got elected and they'll stand outside Dalt Aire in Ireland, waving their hands, smiling. And they all look young and happy. And then you watch a couple more years of Reel in Indie Airs and they look haggard. So you chose comedy instead, Jack? Yeah. Famously, people are very mentally healthy and no one comes out haggard at all. I think it's a lot healthier than that. So, okay. So you, you dug politics rightfully and then you ended up doing comedy at the start. Were you like, I'm going to be a comedian? At the start of, when you started comedy? Very quickly, I I recommend in a couple of gigs, I knew I wasn't good, like in a couple of gigs, but I was like, I think I understand this. I think I can do it. I was convinced I'd be able to learn how to do it. And the other thing I did now, which I don't know, I went on Amazon and bought all the books I could buy about stand up. Please go into it. What recommendations? The best one is there's an American book called Master and Stand Up. That's the best. If you read that one. Yeah. Yeah. And then that one's very good. But I read a lot of books where like you'd get one good thing out of it. Do you know what I mean? Like, so I read Jimmy Carr's book about shaping the ape. I think it's called. His new one? No, it's an old one. Oh, he has an older one about it as well. It's about jokes. It's about how to write jokes. I read Serious Guide to Joke Writing. I read the Comedy Bible. I read The Artist's Way. I read and then I read like Frank Skinner's biography. Then I read a couple of books that sort of I read for comedy, you know, like Black Box Tinking and, you know, those kind of like a software thing. Well, it's Chris. Chris Rock is in that example. Chris Rock. It's about it's about. He was on stage and reads the notes. Yeah, it's about trial and error. Using trial and error is mainly about Pixar. And then I started the books I actually found nearly the most helpful. I started reading loads of books about sports psychology. OK, performance psychology. And they have any recommendations for those? Yeah, yeah. There's a great one. The Pressure Principal, who's a sports psychologist who works with Johnny Wilkinson and Johnny Sexton about kicking his books. Amazing. Then there is another one. Chim Paradox, very good for performance. He's the guy who worked with the British cycling team. I'm trying to think now who there was another one too. There was a bit. Have you read The Art of Swade? You know what that's about? I think it's in my Kindle library, but go for it Jack, because my memory is not as good as yours. I need to pull it up. It's a bit spiritual. It's a lot of Hollywood actors read it. It's a bit spiritual. There's another one with sports psychology. Johnny Sexton was into one about. It's a bit much for me now, but it's about not entertaining self-doubt or negative thoughts. So Wilkinson was very into like the games are decided by tiny margins and that he would be very strict. Like it's kind of your thoughts become your actions. He's very strict about having positive thoughts all the time. But it's helpful to a point, but I couldn't do it. But that's amazing. You went into this sport. Psychology makes a lot more sense probably than a lot of the comedy books. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely get more out of them than the comedy books, because I think the comedy books when you read them like at the end is performance. Like it's now some of them are geared more towards writing sitcoms and writing comedy and everything else. But like stand up is stand up is verbal performance. So I read a book about this book is actually pretty good for stand up. I read a book about William Gladstone and Benjamin Disraeli because they were from Victorian British politics is the golden age of public speaking because they gave speeches out in fields, political speeches like that's like Daniel O'Connell was same time. There's William Pitt, senior and junior. Like they are considered the greatest public speakers of all time because they all studied public speaking because it was so important to get elected. That's how you got elected. You went to mass rallies and spoke and the people who rose to the top of politics were the best public speakers. That's not really the case now. You don't have to be a great orator now helps. But so that's so I was reading these books thinking this is good. That's really, I never thought about that at all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I suppose Trump had a lot of success with being. He's amazing. Amazing stand up. Honestly. He is funny to be fair. He is like, you know, Boris would have been a like if Boris had been a stand up with everyone would love him. Like, Oh yeah. And he always had the hair thing done. I thought that was so smart. Make me, Oh, don't mind what I'm doing. Meanwhile, he's writing books about it. Only for Michael McIntyre he'd have been a comedian. Boris didn't want everyone going. He's a Michael McIntyre ripoff. Hope to see Boris at some open mics recently. That'll be amazing. I'll be a big fan. I think there's a lot of the skill level in politics and stand up comedy. There's massive overlap like Obama. You know, you remember he did those media events where he did. He did stand up style speaking and he was class at it. So I do think there's a lot of crossover. Who are you putting through King Kong? Obama, Boris and Trump going to King Kong. Who's getting through? Man, finish. They'd love Trump. You get out here. If one person put the card up on Trump, he would roast them so bad. I'll buy this place. You're a disgusting person. You're a disgusting person. The worst thing is that he absolutely loves that as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. He'd take the roof off. He'd win it like. So in the early days, was there any really horrible gigs? Because it seems to be quite successful. There was a lot. One of the things I was saying that I did things before I did comedy that were really beneficial to me in comedy. One of the things I did was I did a lot of acting courses before I did stand up, before I decided I was going to do stand up. And there's one course I did where there was this guy who was an actor, but he was moving into direct being a director. And he was unbelievable. This guy was so talented. It was crazy. He had a grandparent who survived Auschwitz. His family were Polish. And he kind of said to us at the start of the course, he was like, just open yourself up and do whatever I tell you to do. Great actors just are great at taking direction and letting the director kind of use them. And I remember I just I got into it and he was kind of. He gave me direction and I remember even like being surprised myself for what the result was. And he was saying it was one of the things he said, like with all kind of performance or acting is commit 100 percent. So like even if you're you know, you want to be a serious actor, but they get you to do a serial ad or something like commit, never get in the habit of not fully committing. And that was just massively helpful at the start, because there's so many times at start where you turn up to a gig and you're like, oh, this is this is shite. Like this isn't you're not meant to do comedy here. Like this isn't going to work. And and and but I found if you if you did commit, even if it didn't go well, you'd get something out of it. It's that psychological leap. The respect from the audience for just giving it a go. Audiences with audience will respect commitment like there's but commitment is is like but it's a great habit to get into. Like so that was very lucky. But of course, I had I had a rough gig. I think I think the first I think the first that I had was was very funny, like the first proper that I had. Like, you know, so you know, when you start, you do bring her gigs like obviously. So for anyone watching this in the comedy bring her gigs, you have to bring a friend. And it's hard to organize. Right. And and you get a lot of guilt. It's socially. You do it socially. I'm laughing because it's true. Please. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You invite friends and sometimes you feel like you're overusing a friend. And sometimes you feel like you're using people and it's a horrible. Reaching out to people you haven't seen in four years. Been like, oh, choose me. Don't catch up for a pint. I'll buy it. Exactly. And then and then you could meet someone for the first time and they're like, oh, we all have to go for a drink together. And you're like, Tuesday. And you're like, Tuesday. But you're at all of this kind of stuff. Like you become very manipulative. You become very sociopathic and manipulative and the whole lot. And then and then you can't you have to play it cool. Like you can't say to someone, you know, you say to your friend, oh, listen, I'm doing this gig Friday. Do you want to come? And they're like, yeah, yeah. I come like you can't be like, no, I need to know 100% if you're coming or not. Like, it's a don't. Here's a Google calendar. If you can't, you can't come like say nothing. Right. So it was one Friday, bring our gig, Savoy tap off the strand. Right. And and the other thing, too, I had done because there's no bring it every time I met anyone, I'd be like, oh, you have to come to a gig. So one friend said he was meeting a friend for a drink and he'll try come. He'll try talk his friend into coming, but he's not sure if he can come. I saw it. Oh, shit. And then another friend messaged me to say that a friend from Essex best to me to say that he'd been drinking after work, five o'clock. What was I doing after work Friday? And he said, and I was like, eight o'clock, nine o'clock, he's drinking five. He's going to be but I wasn't sure that the other person was coming. So I told him about the gig and he came to me and he talked through every act. And everyone did all right. And I remember Jamie Alderton actually had a great to and fro with him and it was hilarious. And he interrupted everyone, but every like everyone kind of got humor out of him. And then I went up and I got absolutely nothing because I was the person who brought him. And it was like it was one of those ones like that was a big let you know, you're kind of like, all right. So if they don't like it, it doesn't matter how good the jokes are because these jokes were working for me and now they're not working for me. So that was remember that was who, but the other thing too, I remember is bombing and dying didn't feel as bad as I thought it was going to be. Did you find that? Oh, I hit it. Did you? But did you not imagine it was going to be worse? Yeah, no, I do think I still hate it, but I did think it was going to be the end of my life. And like I'd have to fly back to Belfast and just live in shame and people would talk about it when I was 80 and I was like, but they don't even remember. I actually think it's, it's harder to watch someone die than to be the person. See it's not, when I'm bombing, it's not that I'm suffering. It's that these people are having their night ruined by me. That's the psychology that's going on for me. So I'm like, I'll do something stupid, but it's so uncomfortable to watch. It's so because you don't know what to say or what to do. Like it's, it's like meeting someone who's just had a parent who died. You're like, I should say something, but I don't, I don't know what to say. Yeah. After the gig, I'm going to start dancing like I fear loss. That's what we should come up with something like an etiquette. Someone should write an etiquette of what you said. So many of them just go, don't worry about a champ or something. But I see, I really admire like when comedians console or hug a comedian who's like, I, I just, I just, I just avoid them. And I used to just leave because you know, you walk off stage, people only make eye contact to it. I just like, it's like you have an aura. You just have a bad aura around you. But I remember like I've died on stage and been standing there and just thinking, this doesn't feel that bad. You just ask an audience member, Tuesday, how did you get over? How did you, did you have to overcome Balmain then? Or? Not really. Just get more comfortable. Yeah. It didn't happen a lot. Like it happened, but it didn't happen a lot. Like I never really had too many in a row, but again, it was like, see the bringer, the bringer gigs, everyone complains about them, but they are brilliant for building your confidence because they can, they, you're never, you never really die a bomb at them. I also don't like to complain about them because they're serving a purpose. They're serving a purpose. And like, you know, you don't have to do them if you don't want to. You don't have to do them. If you don't want to do them. I found them like, you know, I did a mix, you know, when you start, I did a mix of like non bringer gigs and bringer gigs and you would die at the non bringer ones a lot. But I think that's, do you not think that's perfect? Because the first time I went to the non bringer, I was awful because they weren't like the people I knew. And I was like, oh, and then it just made me reinvent. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think it was lovely. So I started, you're doing non bringer, you're doing bringer and you're doing your gongs and the bringer ones, like I remember like, he's not doing it now, but I'm sure there's one similar, like Wes Dalton did Funny Fact. And I do it once a month and I knew no matter what happened for the month, I'd kill it funny. Do you know what I mean? That's why I should just go back. I'm just going to just do bringer's tech. I've learned everything. Yeah, like because Wes, he, his small room, the energy up, no one died. Like no one died because he had created so much goodwill in the room. So you would just, you would just always do well and that'd leave you on a high. The gig, one of the gigs I started doing a lot at one point earlier on that was horrific, but very beneficial was there was a gig in the Bedford in Ballum, not Watson Banana Cabaret, but like it was a new material gig on a Wednesday run by a guy called TJ who was in his seventies. I think he's still alive. He's still knocking about and TJ was hilarious and he, he would, he was, he was like the antithesis, is that the right word? Polar Ops, I should just say the Polar Ops rather than showing off with antithesis. Right. He was, he, he, no, no, not until I think the Polar Ops, it's okay. Antagonist is so like the bringer gigs you got, Kyle, comedy virgins, funny fact, they build up loads of energy. Oh, he purposely killed the room. Killed it. No energy. He, he, he absolutely, he absolutely flattens the room, right? Flattens it. And he, now the room held about 40 or 50. Sometimes he could have 40 or 50, but his whole thing was like that he was purposely trying to run the gig into the ground to make it the most expensive and he killed it. And it was type of gig that I think people would go and typically do once and then be like, I'm never coming again. But I lived beside there. I was like, it was the nearest gig to me. And then I remember seeing Jason Patterson and Roria Hanlon were doing it like every week and they're in the comedy store and I was like, well, there must be some benefit to doing it because when you start, you kind of think, is there any benefit to doing a dead gig or not? And then there was one time snowing and a lot of people, a lot of comedians didn't show up, a lot of audience didn't show up, four audience, four comedians. I just, and what I realized at that gig was my material never work. So I would just, I just started rambling. And it was one time I did 22 minutes. He just didn't take me off. I shook hands with four people. And then I was like, OK, then I was like, OK, that's how you get material. Like you ramble. You don't try and, don't try and write a joke. Just try and be funny to Nutton and then, and then see if you can turn it into a joke. But like I had some horrific deaths there. He used to do a thing where he wouldn't let them leave. People pay a fiver. He wouldn't let them leave. He'd be afraid to let them go down to the bar to break in case they didn't come back. Right. So he, he once sent me down to the bar with someone's credit card to get them four gin and tonics. Right. And I went down with someone's credit card, got four gin and tonics, came back up and they were in the front table. And as I put the drinks down, he's MCing and then he goes, now Jack. Right. So I've gone from putting the drinks down. Don't mind me guys. Straight on. Right. And just Nutton. And then he takes the microphone off and he goes, good barman, bad comedian. But he wouldn't let people leave. That's funny. I like the characters that just, because you sort of have to make it a haunted situation because if the audience leaves, it's so unfair, not unfair to the comedians. We don't deserve anything. But he was, he was great. It made him, but he got, he used to get people who came back. Yeah. Like, you know, it's a gladiatorial arena. You know, because he's some mental breakdown. But did that gig probably dig you a lot then? Like, it did. Yeah. Because I got, I started doing it every Wednesday. I went down every Wednesday and I was doing it nonstop and it was just, it was just so hard. And every time you, like, I couldn't do material. Every time you're basically doing a brand new five, like, and something, you know, I think anywhere where you're comfortable just doing new stuff is so important. So I only have one place right now I'm comfortable. And it's, it's not like that. And then we have different problems. So I do a gig in a hostel called Wombats and it's a full, now that it's summer, people are in London to travel. So it's full of 18 to 23 year olds. And we have literally 50, 60 or 70 people sometimes, but they're not there for comedy. Yes. They're in for a cold bar. So we have to rally them up, tell them to shut up, turn the music off and then keep their attention for an hour. Yes. So those gigs are, so the acting really helped me with those gigs. And also those gigs are great for gong shows because you've got those 50 people. So what can you do from a performance level that says to everyone in the room, oh, actually, fuck. Yeah. Like, and again, it's like a lot like that's like sports. It's like psychological. It's like you want to come on with such a, like you think it, think back to like, you ever see like old clips of Peter Kay in the Comedy Store or Michael McIntyre in the Comedy Store? Like they sort of walk, like, do you ever see Peter Kay in the Comedy Store? Google it. Like he walks on stage and he I think the first joke is he goes, what's the Jamaican's favorite doughnut? Everyone knows that joke. We're jamming. We're jamming. Right. So he does like three classic jokes that everyone knows that he didn't write on stage, but he just delivers it with such swagger and energy. And there's something about him that feels like he's breaking the norm that makes you perk up. And those type of gigs, if you like, like if you just stand and start talking philosophy like you're Dave Chappelle. Your game over. Tell me my opinions guys. But if you're Viggo Vendt. Oh, he would murder. Fucking murder. Do you know? So it's getting somewhere between the two of them. Like, so you still want to do stand up that you're talking about. Can you do something with performance and energy that just bamboozles them? That just like almost. See, I think you've hit it on the head. We didn't have this understanding. So we figured this out through just six months of iterations. But like you've got what we should have consulted. I think those things you have to learn yourself. The thing I used to do in all these kind of gigs, because there's a lot of open mind gigs where you're fighting for attention. And then the gongs show. I used to say, and I did it subconsciously. I never consciously did it, but I used to lean in and I used to, I looked weird. If you look at the videos, I looked, my body shape looked weird. And by making myself look weird, that somehow just sort of confused people enough to look. And then the other thing I used to do was I'd look to see who's talking. I'd look at him and I'd point as I'm talking. You know what I mean? And that, like you're just confusing people. What else did you learn from the acting? That's cool. So the acting was just all about, it was all about commitment. The acting was amazing. Like I did a 10 week course in RADA. Every Saturday for like 10 weeks. I'm being really ignorant. So what's RADA? RADA, the Royal Academy of Traumatic Arts. I wasn't questioning your credentials at all. I know you're a very serious actor. The big thing you learn, like the big thing, acting was so different than, I was doing a bit of public speaking. I thought I'll do a bit of acting and I thought it'll help me. And I thought acting was you go, you get your script, you talk. There's a bit of that, but there's a lot more to it. So your body is really important. How you move your body, your voice, how you project your voice. And then like the other thing they were teaching us is the audience feels. So this is all for stage acting. Now, TV screen acting is completely different. Then for stage acting, what you feel the audience feels. So if you are supposed to be angry and you want to make the audience feel angry, you should feel angry. You should get angry. So comedy, that's huge in comedy because if you feel confident and comfortable, you'll make them feel confident and comfortable. Like if you feel, if you're on edge and you're tense, that's how the audience will feel. If you're nervous, they'll feel nervous. So you want to make them feel calm and relaxed and all that. And then just about, they do a lot about vocal energy and just using your body and stuff like that. So practically for stand up then, how do you make the audience feel more calm? The best way to make a stand up audience feel calm is if you walk on stage and everything about you in the first five seconds says, I don't give a fuck. Like, you know, so just, it's just your body language. Like if you, I march on stage. Now it's an interesting one. And this is an interesting one because I seen a thing with Shane Todd, right? Where he said that Daniel Sloss told him to go walk slow on stage. Now I think if you're doing an hour show, that's right. Go slow, be confident. They know you, they've paid to see you. But I think in a comedy club, fucking go fast. Like, do you know what I mean? It's like the bell going, you're a fighter in the corner, the bell going off. I'll fucking walk slow to the middle ring. Fucking go in there. Do you know what I mean? Because if you come out of that, like you come out of the traps, like you're moving fast and all that, like you look like you cannot wait to punch someone. They're like, oh, this guy would be good. I've just thought that because when, as you're saying that there's a few people that I've watched to beat the blackout and they want, like they downed her up slow. Oh, fucked. And I think, I think they think they're being like, cool, but the clap stopped and then they've lost. Yeah. So like, I listen, I can tell you everything about gongs. Because I did so many of them. Yeah, of course. What are your big takeaways from the gongs? That's exactly that. Right. So I would see that a lot. And that's, that's, that there's a word for that where you like, if you, if you start something like, say you just start doing ballet, shouldn't be watching the best ballerinas in the world because it won't help you because you have to learn. It's like a computer game. Like, do you know what I mean? You have to learn how to jump the early hurdles. You shouldn't be focusing on that. And what happens with the blackout loads is people are watching Ricky Gervais, they're watching Dave Chappelle and they watch them and they stroll out, take the microphone out really slow. Yeah. How you doing? My name is, you're finished. You, I could tell at gongs shows, by the way, someone was walking and say, I'll be like, he's fucked. Fucked. Because no one gives a fuck who you are because you're nobody. You wouldn't be doing the gongs show if you were fucking somebody. Next up, Kevin Hardy is going to jump over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You wouldn't be doing it. So like my attitude with a gong show is go up there. The minute they call your name, get up there as fast as you want. Because one thing you don't want is you don't want them to have stopped cheering and clapping before you started speaking. Right? You don't want that because that creates a bit of tension. So you want to, you know, you want to help them not make sure that doesn't happen. And then you want to pull that microphone out and you want to crack a fucking punch line as quickly as you can. Because of it. And the biggest punch line you've got. And if you, if you land a big joke in 10 seconds, 20 seconds, you fucking have them. Because they're sitting there going, is this person good? Is this person good? If you go up and go, now some people can pull it off, but like you've got to be fucking smooth. Like if you're really good looking. But no, a gong show doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Just as I said that, I remember the guy, I remember the guy at King Kong one time who did, he was good looking and he went up slow and then a girl shouted, take your top off. And he just went, what? And then the whole room started chanting, take your top off, take your top off. And he went, no, I'm not going to. One car, two car, three car. Oh, you had to take it off. He's still an amateur. He had to take it off. So yeah, but the guy, like, but I do think in club comedy, like, I still think it a lot, like it is like the gong show. I think until you're famous, like until they're cheering because they know who you are, I still think you want to get in there and fucking sucker punch them. Do you know what I mean? You always want to be on the front foot. And then for the gong shows, did you always know the set you were going to say exactly or was it more fluid? I know you kind of know it like you might some nights you show up, you might fairy like the bit that might change is you might change your open and joy. Like when I get there, I think there's a lot to be said of not. You always want to have a bit of flexibility. Like, you know, at the start, you can't like at start, you just have to have my three minutes. But one thing I would say is you do have to adapt to the night. So the blackout is a great one because you could do the blackout and the room could be sold out. I don't know what 200, 300 people. And it would be the type of performance you'll have to do then is so different. And you can go and there's 50 people there. And it's like they're spread around the room. Like the performance that wins with 200 to 300 people is very different from the wins 50 people. Can I take a guess that the 50 people have to be a lot more custom to the audience? What do you mean? I'm saying you're referencing the audience. No, no, no, no, no. But the 50 people, you have to be you have to be louder. You have to be faster. You have to be more aggressive. You have to be more assertive. But with 50 people, if you go on shouting, being aggressive and assertive and trying to command the room, they'll think you're a dickhead. Do you mean, do you mean with 200? Huh? Do you mean with 200? 200 you have to be loud. Okay. With the 50 people. So like, if I was going on for 200, like 200, 300 people, I would go on and I go, how are we all doing? Like, give me a chair if you're drinking. I do all that. Now, if there's 50 people spread around the room and you go on and do that, you look like a dickhead. So with 50 people, I go on, I go, how y'all doing? This is lovely, isn't it? Different tonally, different, same jokes, but tonally you're going in. So with 50 people, I pretend like I was just talking to them because they're just, it's a different energy. You sort of are because there's 50 people spread around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's matching, it's matching people's energy. Like, you know, you like, okay, it's Sunday now. You wouldn't walk into a pub now on a Sunday and fucking go in with your, well, you could, but everyone think you're a dickhead. Go in with your friends and be like, fucking shocked. But you can do that on a Friday. Do you know what I mean? Like, you got to match the energy. And I think the biggest mistake I made in gongs at start, I learned that the hard way was I got the energy wrong. So I remember I did, I did really well. I came second in King Kong in London, right? And I did like, I killed it, right? And I was loud and I was like, it was boisterous. And I commanded the room and it was mad. Like the time I did, the maddest thing about that was I did a bit of new material. There's one minute of my five minutes where I came second, there was new material that didn't work. And no one noticed it didn't work because the first joke landed so well. I think it was, I did the first joke landed and then the next bit I did was new material that didn't land. But because it was so loud and I came out of this trap so big, I got away with it. So then I went to Manchester like, I think a few weeks after that. And I was like, I'm going to do exactly the same thing. Manchester's Gong was on a Sunday night as well. But it was energy, it's completely different, completely different. Manchester's Gong was all couples, like they weren't rowdy at all. And I went out and I remember I went on and I did the same thing, big open and big joke. Fucking two people in front of me looked at the ground. I realised, fucking, I misjudged this massively. I tried to do exactly the same thing and I misjudged it massively. I got conged off that for four and a half minutes or something. But I knew I was gone, I was gone, straight away I was gone. And then I tried to bring it down, but I never. At least you had the awareness to try to bring it down instead of just, you will take this energy. And then the next time I went up to Manchester when I won it, I went on and even though there was a couple of hundred people in that room, that room was so different than the London room. I went up and I went, how are you all doing? Like I didn't go out shouting and trying to get the energy up. I just spoke to them and it's just a completely different room. Like in the end it kind of became, I liked it then, but it was, it's a completely different gig. You know? And then how long did it take then to go do Edinburgh, you and Tom? Was that the first split you did in Edinburgh? That was the first split I did, yeah. You can do like Edinburgh, you can do straight away if you want. Like there's no kind of rules to Edinburgh. Like so I think, again, I didn't really know about Edinburgh when I started comedy. Like I didn't know, I knew there was a festival there. I didn't really know much about it. I thought famous comedians went there. I didn't really know that, you know, I remember reading about it in Frank Skinner's book. Like he just went up and booked around. He phoned for like, I'll take four hours or something. He took an hour. Yeah, yeah. He took an hour or something. Yeah. I was like, how long do people use? Or he just said, I don't know, a couple of hours. And then they were like, oh, people do an hour. Yeah. So I read it. So I kind of knew, but I didn't know a lot about it. And then I think I was two years in or something and I went up for a week and I went up for a week. I actually got lucky. Like there's a guy, John Foley, he was like chairman of the Queen Mary Comedy Club. Do you know him? No. No. Queen Mary Comedy Club. And they were putting on a show for eight nights and they asked me to be in their university showcase. So and I did that. Now our venue was shy. We had a venue outside in a beer garden, in a beer garden. Unreal. So that was like a good one for commitment because there was one time we did a gig where Scotland had played a rugby match and the beer garden was full of Scottish guys in Scottish jerseys. Shut up boys. We're trying to watch the match. No, they weren't watching the match. The match was over. Like we were on, the match was over. The match was on during the day. But I remember asking, now they were in the pub, they were only coming out occasionally, he's a smoke smoker. Remember asking a guy, I said, I couldn't look back. I said some big massive Scottish guy, Scottish jerseys. I said, can you keep it down? We're doing a show here. And then I remember the way he looked at it. I just turned around and I just kept walking away. Everyone else was looking at me going like, fucking they all thought it was hilarious. He was like, who the fuck's this prick? And then I remember I went on anyway and then there was a beer garden next door too. And it was like, then like you get that thing where they all then purposely start speaking louder because you're on stage, you know, this sort of shit. And then I can't remember what I did. I just blacked out and buried it in the mulch. Something happened like where I said, I said, let's start, let's pretend this fucking Scotland, they love this, right? I somehow, I don't know how I got to this, but I somehow said, let's pretend we're a meeting of paedophiles and talk into the mic, pretend that we're a meeting of paedophiles to see if anyone from the other beer garden looks over, like goes, what the fuck's that? And looks over, see if we can fool anyone into thinking that they've heard something that's impossible that you wouldn't hear. And we didn't. But it was quite funny. And suddenly, you know, they actually were like, they got into the comedy then. It was bizarre. It was bizarre. But like those type of gigs, I'd find them very hard to do now. And I would have found them very hard without that guy's head, that guy's voice in my head saying, commit, just whatever you do, just go for it. Like, you know, you can't show weakness there at all. Can't show weakness. But it's not even about showing. It's more for yourself. Like, it's just like, just fucking go for it. And I think that that attitude helped with the gong, like massively helped with the gong show. It's like, because that gig is far harder than a gong show. You know? I agree as well, because you have to get their attention before they decide if they're laughing or not. Never mind. On the market and getting them in. But we always do in stories from the start because you're a big storyteller. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will. I don't know. Now everyone says I do stories, but I think they're jokes. But no, they're very, very funny stories like your doctor story. I call it a doctor story. I don't mean Jack's a morbid. Yeah, I didn't really start. I didn't start off like that. The first thing I did, I bought that book, Serious Guide to Joke Writing, and I did those kind of joke essays or joke exercises. And I tried to write jokes and some of them were all right. But then, to be honest, it's real stuff just always worked better for me. I've got that doors joke. I did that in the very first gig I ever did because I had seen that. I saw it. So then I just realized. So it's just more a case of paying attention to your own life. And if you see or hear anything that's funny, and the bit about going to the doctor like that, that pretty much happened. Like I did pissed a little bit of blood. They think I might have had like a small kidney stone or something, but I had to go for the full cancer. I have kidney stones at the moment. So yeah, I feel your I live your story. Yeah. And I had to go and I just the bit to just the they give you a leaflet in the waiting room that tells you that the camera is the size of a pencil. And I just thought that was fucking very funny. Like that someone measured it and the whole that. And I remember it was all old guys there. Remember there was an old guy going in before me and they asked him was he allergic to anything? And he said cameras. And the other thing I thought was really funny about that was I like them. Well, now, but this is I suppose this is like I suppose they were all fucking like the waiting room was like, well, when they were all the men were very upset about having to do all these old men were fucking I was fascinated. Like I was like, you know, I remember I went in and the seat kind of you can look back like that. You know, they have it so that you're looking that you're like that, that your head's looking away. But I sat up like this. Like I was like watching it. You know, and he goes, you're going to sit like that for I say, yeah, I want to see. Like I was like, I was just kind of interested in the technology. And I wanted to watch it on the screen like I was getting to see inside me and all that. And I realized not like everyone else is fairly glum. But then I was going in where they were basically saying, look, it's highly unlikely you have cancer. But we, you know. Okay. I thought this was for Katie Stone. No, no, no, no, no. They like, you know, the piss blood, like they're going to investigate what it was. But most of the people there, the piss blood, like they're they're seeing whether it's cancer. Like that's what you're mainly checking to see. You took a hard turn on me there, Jack. So did you get the camera then? No, I'm in the process where I've just been passing kidney stones. I'm riddled with them. All right. But how did you know that you're passing them like? I was in awful pain, like just it was called renal clonic or something. And it was like, I was, did blood come out? No, but just so much pain that they were like, it's either torsion or this. So you need to go in then and stuff. All right. But I was probably just unhealthy living from comedy. Yeah. So I didn't have pain. But I just I woke up one morning and half my piss was blood. And then they went and they sent me piss and they were like. So the material comes from intense suffering? Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything. There's very little I have that hasn't come from something I saw, something that happened to me, something I heard or something I read. That's basically it. And do you write it down or do you go up and see? No, no, I like I just run it through my head. Like I get up there and just have one with it. Yeah, yeah, I've run it through my head. I try not to because it's the turn of phrase is often the thing. So like at my in my job, I do a lot of very menial mundane stuff where I can't I can't talk to anyone like so I when I be late when I label prescriptions, I could spend a couple of hours a day labeling prescription switches where I'm scanning, clicking and you know, you're you're doing you're checking all this kind of stuff like but you can you can you can kind of slightly daydream through parts of it. Like there's parts of it where you have to focus like when you're checking the drug interaction and you're kind of like, OK, OK, what's this patient on? But a lot of it is just like a blister pack prescription comes in a set of one of four. So the first one you kind of pay attention to check everything's right. But then you still have to scan and run through three more. Yes. So when I'm doing that, I will run through it in my head. But it's I'm always looking for the turn of phrase. And then another thing I read, which I thought was a great thing was, do you know what a jokeoid is? You ever heard that phrase? Jokeoid is something that looks and sounds like a joke, but is not a joke. Right. So it has the rhythm of joke, sounds like a joke, but it's not a joke. That's a jokeoid. And I read a thing that said. If you have a good jokeoid, like so if you you do the premise and everyone kind of lights up a little bit and they smile and maybe you get a little titter and then you do it, but you don't have a punch line. So there's no no one's like keep saying it because it might evolve into a joke. And that's happened for me. That's cool. So I just I if I have a bit that I like, I'll just keep adding it in. And you're kind of open to some that when you're on stage or subconscious, I feel like it's solving problems. So I find that if I think a lot about stuff off stage, I'm fucking wasting my time, like wasting my time. I'm far better off. Get an idea, write it down. Don't think about it. Go on stage, ramble it like the fire, far more likely to. And probably less like in your head and your audit about. Yeah, yeah. Like because you know, when you make people laugh, you it's never conscious. You're not. Oh, they'll love this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me force them into this. Yeah, that's not like I don't think that's not your process. I mean, and I I don't dislike stuff that's, you know, really well written. Like there are some comedians I watch and I think I can tell they wrote it and I can tell it's very and it's quite enjoyable. It's very well written, but it's not like I don't think you'll ever get that same excitement, that same surprise when you when you say something, when it comes from verbal rather than written. Yeah, well, I'm I'm very new and I've had a lot more fun recently being like a lot more in the room because I used to only do stuff that I know exactly the punchline, but I drove myself crazy. Yeah. And now I'm doing a lot more like playing in the room, talking to people, trying to get a story only if it's mentioned and just, I don't know. Yeah, it's a lot more fun. Do you know what I did for I did this for about six months at open mic. I had around minute four of five minute sets. I would just stop. I would just stop. And I would just see if I could get to that point where you'd hear silence. And then I used to, oh, I just like to do that in case I get an idea. Well, that's cool. And just playing with that tension. Yeah. And it was a lot of fun to do. And I used to and I used to just leave that gap hoping that I would come up with something that I fucking I very rarely do. But it was it was it was fun to do. It was a lot of fun to do. Well, with that, I'm coming up. I'm just going to bring it back to Edinburgh. So from those two weeks, I went up to Edinburgh. Did you have a good time to learn much? Yeah. Yeah. The time I went. So I went for eight days that time. Yeah. Yeah, it was very exciting. It was weird. It was weird now because I went I had I had an amazing August like I got a drop out last minute to do comedy, comedy, Covent Garden comedy, which used to be in heaven, which is fucking lovely gig. I got to do 10 minutes there. And that was a big gig for me at the time. I remember. And I absolutely killed the 10 minutes. And I was just fucking I was buzzing from that. And then I won King Kong and Manchester. And this is all happening in August. And then I saw I went to Edinburgh like the last week. Fucking buzzing. I got up there. And everyone I met was like because I only knew people at lower levels of comedy. Oh, they were all like, they're getting too stoked. Oh, they're off so down. But yeah, it was enjoyable. Like it was it was weird. Like I originally didn't like when I sat at comedy and people going up and doing hours and going to Edinburgh, I thought to myself, why would you go into 11 hours? I didn't make it. I was like, like the gigs are here. Like it didn't make sense to me. And then I went and a lot of gigs. And I still thought I was right that Edinburgh was a lot of shite because the gigs weren't as nice. They're in bad venues. The sound bleeding a whole lot. But then I went and did the thing with Tom where I did the split show. And you just get better. Like it's boot camp. It really is boot camp. You just I think you just you you experience so many different variables in a short space of time. You can do loads of gigs. Like there was one day I did seven gigs in Edinburgh. Like so you can do loads of gigs. It's just it's just practice in that muscle. Like it is just it's like if you go off, you know, someone might go to my tie three weeks in Thailand, my tie box and like you're going to come back stronger. Yeah. You know, yeah, that's very good knowledge. Yeah. Someone that's attempted and failed to do my tie. Did you do this? Did you go for it? I was supposed to be for a month and I got testicular torsion 11 days in what a turn of phrase there. But yeah, I did. But I went over and I was inside and I had to get surgery to unwind it. They cut it open. Oh, that's why I'm going up for it. I hope it doesn't happen again. So you had to come home for that surgery. Yeah, I did in a wheelchair. It was grim. Mom told everyone I'd lost my testicles. It was that's a good stand up stuff. But yeah, so Edinburgh went well, you learned a lot. And then but the big one recently, well, you've done all these clips. Jack, tell me about these clips. Because when I first met you, you were talking about posting the clips. Yeah. Yeah. So my new year's resolution was I was going to record everything and start doing clips. And I did it for my whole clip thing was during the pandemic. So I hadn't really done anything, anything online. And then during the pandemic, I like everybody else. I started fucking playing around and I tried to do a few sketches. They're hard aren't they? Fuck me, they're hard. And the other thing too was I was very unfair myself, like because I was watching other people doing it. I won't say, you know, who I was looking at and they're fucking amazing. But they were spending like 12 hours. Oh yeah, work. Yeah. Those boys that do like even the 12 seconds, like so much work. Yeah. So the few I talked to, like I said, yeah, I spent two days. I was working during the pandemic. So I was coming home and fucking eating me dinner, like spending half an hour trying to do a sketch. And I'll tell you how bad they were. A friend of mine, some of my school friends messaged me to ask me was I all right? They thought he's awesome. He's cracked. You're doing the prescriptions for people. You're just like, ah, that'll be fun. And it was just good. And then, so then they didn't work. And then TikTok came out and Freddie Quinn did a Friday night. He did a webinar on a Friday night too. You paid him a fiver and he explained to you the TikTok algorithm. And he sort of, he had started getting traction on TikTok and he explained to him how to grow following and all that. And one of the things people were doing on TikTok was they would do, they would screenshot a news story and they would just rant about that news story. And they'd be very like, Freddie would do it about any kind of news story at all. Like, but a lot of them would be very political. Like, there's a couple of people who actually, they sort of started messaging me, like they'd be very labor focused or conservative focused or pro or anti Brexit. And I was like, I read the newspaper every day anyway, so that that'll save me a bit of research time. And I started doing them and I started trying to do three a day, like Freddie had said, how many videos should be doing a day. Now, bearing in mind, all these people were at home, furloughed doing it. I was going to work. So I was fucking, now I was lucky enough in that I was in a house share and everyone, my flatmates had left and hadn't got anywhere. So I actually had a whole house to myself. So I turned one of the bedrooms into TikTok. So I would get up, do a video, have my breakfast, go to work, and then I would come home, do one straight away and then try to do one just before I went to bed. So I was trying to do three a day, three news stories a day. And then just whenever I did one about Brexit, where I slagged off Brexit for being a bad idea, it hit. And it basically hit because the comment section would go fucking crazy. Loads of people would attack me. There'd be loads of comments of, it's none of your business. What's he doing in our country with that? And then it would just fucking go off. And then when I was at work, I would like debate with people. I remember one time there was one young guy who I went over and back with him for about two hours. Just feeding the algorithm. Yeah. And then we agreed to disagree. And then we kind of became friends. And then at the very end, I went, but you do know you're fucking right. And he went ballistic again. And I was like, I don't believe anything I'm saying. I'm just interacting with you to promote the algorithm. Yeah, I told him. And then so I would debate with people to promote the algorithm. And in a very short space of time, I got to 3,000 followers. And then it was like, I don't know, it was almost like a fucking movie or something. I just danced out. Who am I? Yeah, yeah. Honestly, yeah. It really did just become like, this is just, this is so far away from what, why I wanted to do comedy. Like, I wanted to do comedy to bring people together. I wanted to do comedy to make people feel good. And here I am actively goading people, trying to wind people up. And like, it was just, it just felt completely wrong. And it was about me that was like, you know, I really, you know, I don't really want to do this. And then I had other people messaging me who were doing similar stuff, but they actually believed in it. Like they believed in the, I didn't believe in the politics. And they would message me because they were getting really upset and they were really into it and they were building up their following. But they were doing it because they believed in the politics of it. I didn't really care about the politics of it. So then I stopped doing it because it felt, it felt bad. Then I went to Edinburgh flyer and I was like, I should have kept doing it. I was like, you know what? Flyering is worse. And that's from a man that loves canvassing as well. Yeah, yeah. Flyering is worse. Like canvassing is way easier than flyering. People are a lot more, you call it someone's house, people are polite in their own house and they're relaxed, they're calm, like they're fucking, they're grand. So then anyway, I had, so then it was that, so then I was like, I'm going to start doing the clips, clips. And then I sat there putting them out and they're kind of doing all right, like not amazing, but they're doing all right. Every time, every time I did it, you know, you perform in a club and they do it, they do a clip for you. Those would always kind of do all right for me. Like, so then I started doing my own clips and then Sam Pecone runs the night. He did a clip, collab clip with me and I got 4.2 million and Sam was like, listen, I had a look at your social media. I think your clips are good, but the way you're editing, the way you're presenting them is shit. Like it's, it's really, it's really bad. And like, again, I have very little time to do it. So he says, he says, pay me, I'll do them for you. And they're going great. Yeah. Yeah. So well, you're getting them all from the, it's all from one set. Yeah. But that's a very big set. Yeah. Comedy story. Yeah. Yeah. It's all from one set and it's, it's the type of camera like, so he just knows everything. Like he's saying, like, you know, the 4k camera, if it's not from a good camera, it won't do well. If it's not well subtitled, it won't do well. You know, it's all that kind of stuff. So it'll be, it'd be interesting to see what happens this year in Edinburgh. I did, I did an hour at the Brighton Fringe and I didn't do any flyer and I put, I paid for 10 posters and I put them up in the venue and I sold 45 tickets. So I think that all came from those clips. So it'd be interesting to see what happens at Edinburgh. And it's actually very smart to just give it to someone else to do it. Cause a lot of people are like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just battle through and just gonna do it myself. And then it just, it just doesn't work. Yeah. If you know what you're doing or if you have the time, like I've neither, don't know what I'm doing and I don't have the time. That's what I mean. That's actually, that's where the smart, that's where you've been smart enough to recognise, no, I'm going to focus on the stuff from the day to keep it alive. And then. Yeah. Now I got, I got lucky too, because I think there's a lot of people who will do the clips for you and it won't be good. Oh yeah. As well. Well, it's him in any industry. Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard find the person who's good, you know? Well, how do you find balancing the day job on the comedy? I don't, I find that fine. I don't find that hard at all. I work, I only work four days a week now. So Monday to Thursday. Is this plan to drop it down gradually? Yeah. I'd love to go to Monday to Wednesday. To be honest, like I'd be Monday to Wednesday. I'd be happy for a very long time. Like I've, you know, I'm a big supporter of this by the way, because you have the stability of the job and then the freedom with the art or whatever. Yeah. And then my other side of it too, is like, I don't want to, I wouldn't want to lose the ability to do the day job because even, you know, look, say for example, right, say I go up to Edinburgh and signed by an agent, someone gives me a TV show and the whole art and it could be, I could be doing great for four or five years and then it could be all gone. And you know, then you've, you've no proper income again. So I'd rather keep doing, your circumstances change, you've got to move somewhere, you know? So I'd rather keep the skill set to be able to do, I think that would be always reassuring, you know, I, my girlfriend writes children's books and I hang out with a lot of creative freelancers. There's always a bit of- Stress in their eyes? There's always a bit, there's always a bit of, like, no matter how successful you are, there's always a bit of anxiety that this could be taken away at any time. Now there is that in conventional jobs as well because of AI and technology, but it's not as pressing and then, you know, writers block and all those kind of things. So I think by having, keeping your day job, like, you can enjoy it a bit more. You don't have that. And then Monday to Wednesday, nothing, not much is happening in comedy Monday to Wednesday, unless you get to go touring and stuff like that. And if I'm honest, like, a lot of the other kind of jobs, I probably shouldn't say this because this might not help me, but like, I'd rather work in a pharmacy Monday to Wednesday than do voiceover for a book or something. I agree. Like a lot of the other jobs that you can, that comedians will do that are, you know, creative jobs to help pay the bills, I think they're less enjoyable. Who knows what the boss is like as well? I was an extra in a movie once when I was in university. Unbelievably boring. Like unbelievable. The waiting time. Oh, Jesus. Like, so I think a lot of those kind of, you know, they don't, you know, I think if I had to sit down now, get one of these microphones and read a book for audio, that's a tough job. Like the English children are like, what? Yeah, well, I wouldn't be able to do it anyway because, you know, no one's going to give me the job. If they would give us a job, I wouldn't like it. There's only one book, like my own, if I had my own biography, that'd be the only thing I'd ever, I wouldn't even do that. I'd be like, fucking. But I think it like working in pharmacy is easy. And it's kind of like, it can be a bit, you know, it can be a bit stressful, but overall, it's kind of, it's a nice job. You're talking to people. Big advantage of working in pharmacies, you don't bring work home like no emails, you know, it's great. I think it works, compliments. And I think it also is, I think it's a good yin yang kind of keeps you grounded, like, you know, because with the pharmacy, I'll know like Sunday, I have to be in bed early, can't drink on a Sunday, can't drink from working the next day. I can't like, I would have restraints basically. Yeah, I won't even have like, I wouldn't even have one drink if I'm working the next day. I try to be in bed half 10, 11, do you know what I mean? So it's kind of, it's a good. Keeps you from going absolutely mad. It's a good balance. Yeah, yeah, it's a good balance. So what's in the future for Jack then working on the hour? Working on the hour. That's it. Yeah, just want to keep working on it. My goal from the very start was, I think for me, from a personal satisfaction point of view is I just want to have a really good hour. Like I love hour, I love a great hour at comedy. Like when I was young. Live, it's unbelievable. Live, like I lose, when I was, my, every Christmas my family bought, we all got each other comedy DVDs and we spent Christmas watching them and like, you know, Darro, Bree and Tommy Tern and Chris Rock, you know, Mickey Flanagan, Peter Kay, I love a great hour of comedy. And from the very start, like I'd love, my goal, I'd love to be able to go into a theatre, one, two thousand people and just kill it for an hour and be like, that's a good show. Especially when they're there to see you as well. So you've got to, you don't have to open with the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just, and you know, and I just want to keep working on that. And I'm a long way off that. Like I think there's a massive jump from being good 20 minutes in the comedy store to being good in a theatre for an hour. I think it's different rhythm. I think everything about is different. And I still, at the minute, like I feel, I feel confident. If you put me in a comedy club to do 20 minutes at the minute, I feel confident. But I still think I can get a lot better than that. And then and then I think then I try to get to get to that hour. But I think for the next few years, the big thing for next few years is do more and more of these festivals. So I think last year, probably up to this point, like I'd have been like, you know, I would have gone anywhere to do a Club 20. You know, I went to Hull, I went anywhere that would give me 20 minutes in a comedy club. I take it. Whereas I think now I'm going to slightly shift the focus to can I get it? Can I do an hour? You know, like just move to that. Well, that's very good. Well, good luck with that anyway. Thank you. You got any socials to promote? Socials. The main I'm on all of them. My main one is Instagram comedian dot Jack dot Hester. I'm on TikTok. I'm on YouTube and I'm on Facebook. Facebook's doing Facebook's doing well. Facebook's doing well. Facebook's doing well. Everybody writes on Facebook. I'm looking at Facebook. God, there's a power. Does everyone else know about this? And they have money to buy tickets as well. Yeah. Like I have a video at the minute. Two hundred thousand people on Facebook. Don't say it too loudly. I keep looking at it. Well, thank you for coming, Jack. That was very helpful. Thanks for having me, Rhys. Very nice. Yeah. For everyone, please leave a five star in Apple podcast and Spotify. And if you have any feedbacks, send them me and follow Jack. Thanks for coming, Jack. Superb. Thanks for having me, Rhys. Brilliant stuff.