Steve Hall: We Are Klang, Writing For Russell Howard's Good News and Directing Edinburgh Shows

Reece Kidd welcomes a true luminary of the comedy world, Steve Hall. Known for his exceptional stand-up, writing, and legendary sketch group We Are Klang, Steve is a comedic force to be reckoned with.

Steve's career has been nothing short of meteoric, with notable appearances alongside comedy giants like Lee Mack, Bill Burr, and most significantly, Russell Howard. For Russell, he not only opened shows but was a vital part of six different tours, including jaw-dropping venues like Wembley Arena, the O2, and the illustrious Royal Albert Hall. His Edinburgh Festival shows have consistently received critical acclaim, with Metro describing his phrasing as "joyous" and his storytelling as "tales of hilarious woe."

In 2022, Steve embarked on a highly successful joint-headline tour with his Russell Howard Hour co-writer, Steve Williams. The duo has further tour dates lined up for late 2023. Adding to his impressive portfolio, Steve is set to release a filmed show in collaboration with the prestigious comedy production company Go Faster Stripe.

Steve's comedic prowess extends beyond the stage; he was the first guest stand-up on Russell Howard's Good News (BBC) and went on to write for six series of that show. He also contributed his wit to six series of The Russell Howard Hour (Sky) and has penned humor for numerous comedians on Mock The Week, as well as shows like A League of Their Own and The Now Show. You can catch him as a regular guest on The Frank Skinner Show on Absolute Radio and as a participant in programs like The Rest is History, Act Your Age, and My Teenage Diary for BBC Radio 4.

Steve's comedy journey includes being a crucial part of the legendary sketch group We Are Klang, alongside Greg Davies and Marek Larwood. The group was known for its "stupid comedy done with great intelligence" (The Times), and Steve wrote and starred in their sitcom series for BBC 3 in 2009. We Are Klang was nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Award for Best Show in 2006 and the Barry Award at the 2007 Melbourne Comedy Festival.

As the conversation unfolds, Steve delves into the journey of We Are Klang, a riotous "fuck about tour," and why reviews aren't the be-all and end-all of comedy. He highlights the beauty of organic creativity and collaboration, finding space for a joke, and his role as a comedy creative consultant.

Join Reece and Steve for an hour filled with laughter, wisdom, and a peek into the intriguing world of a comedy veteran. This episode is a captivating blend of comedic anecdotes, insider insights, and the contagious joy of making people laugh.

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Transcript

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So I'm here with Steve Hall, Steve Hall is a stand up comedian writer. He was the first ever guest stand up on Russell Howard's Good News and went on to write six series of that show. He's also written for numerous comedians in Mock the Week, League of Their Own and The Now Show. And my accent, that's horrible, Now Show. He's part of We Are Clangs alongside Greg Davis and Mark Larwood. We Are Clang was nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Show Award for Best Show in 2016 and he's directed many critically acclaimed live shows including 2007 Edinburgh Comedy Award nominated show, Papis. We could have went on there forever. It's quite nice when you sort of look back on it and go, fuck, I've actually done some things that I'm not ashamed of. It's quite a relief. And it's always interesting because there are things that, like We Are Clang is now so long ago that I can actually sort of look back on it and not cringe. Like it's like my kids have sort of, there was a weird thing where there's one Clang bit on YouTube that in the last, literally this has happened in the last two months where it had sort of laid it, you know, do it all right numbers. And then all of a sudden in the last three months, it's doubled its numbers. So it's a clip that's been up there since 2009 and it's suddenly now getting near to a million and it's doing the thing where it was suggesting it to me on my YouTube algorithm. Was it you Steve? Yeah, because it came up on like the YouTube on the telly. So it's the first time where like it came up and my kids were like going, is that you? But not fat. Or was the clip, sorry? It's probably our most successful bit that we did. So it's Love's Young Dream. So we did, there used to be a show called Edinburgh and Beyond where it would be people who'd done Edinburgh would do 10 minute sets at the Bloomsbury Theatre. And we did three of them in different series and that was our most successful one. So it's a song about our first kiss. And at the time I always felt like that was probably of anything we filmed, that was probably the best thing that we did that most closely captured the energy we had. And it was interesting because the bloke who directed that, Peter Orton, sort of like a legendary director and he's done all of Russell Howard's, all the good news, all of the Russell Howard hour, did all of Fantasy Football League back in the nineties. So it's like, I'm sort of incredibly grateful to him because I think it was like his brilliance and just calm, like captured what we do. Is this the one where Greg gives us the start? Where it's like, we're going to do something on offensive. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was really good. It was very strong. Well, so can you describe for everyone that doesn't know what we are, Clang was? So it was a three man sketch show with sort of songs and stupidity. And the whole idea was we were the biggest losers in the room. So we were three absolute dickheads. And the idea was that if we're the lowest status, if we're obviously three brothers fighting in a sand pit, that generally people weren't offended because it was always clear that we were rock bottom lowest status. And that that then opens up this area for play where the audience will sort of go with it. So it was very rare that we would cause offense for a thing that is kind of nominally quite rude. The idea was always that it was joyful and playtime and silliness. That video was so fun. Like that's the word just get in my head. I was like, they're having so much fun. Like you're like laughing at home, which is rare to laugh at a YouTube video, but you're genuinely like, what's going on? And it was that nice thing where, because you've sort of got a script, but you've also got room to either, not really improvise so much, but to try and write a new joke, to try and make the others laugh. So that was always the thing of us trying to make each other laugh with. So when I'm telling Greg off, whatever middle name I give him, that can change each night. Oh, that's fun. And so, and so, and depending on the room, if you're doing late and live in Edinburgh, you can say something really near the line. Then also, if you're doing an afternoon kid show, you say something a bit sillier that's going to work. So in fact, we did Fred McCauley's radio show in Edinburgh. We did, which is, I think, was it, no, it can't have been because it would have been a disastrous thing to do. But we did, we did like an afternoon show where there were loads of kids in. And because we have a sketch in which Merrick was a dancing horse, the kids loved that. And we knew this is exactly the right thing to do. And so had a brilliant time with that, but then had to very strongly emphasise at the end of the show, do not bring your kids to see the actual evening live show because that would be a terrible, terrible moment in your kids' childhood. You adopted the horse bit for the TV series as well. Yeah, yeah. And that was, I mean, it's interesting. We did, sorry, I'll just, don't want to bang the mic there. So yeah, we did, so the history of our show. We did a first Edinburgh show in 2004, then did another show in 2005, which was like the first one where it was really good. So the first year, we were very lucky. It was kind of working with Christian Knowles and Joe King and Avalon. And it was kind of like this co-production. And it basically gave us the opportunity to get the shit out of the system where it was like experimental, but without the pretentiousness that that requires. It was just learning how to sort of muck about together on stage and direct it. They were all directed by Logan Murray. And again, we can probably talk about him a bit later on. I've interviewed him. Oh, excellent. Tomorrow, hopefully. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. He's very, very important in the history of Clang. And so he directed all the shows and that was his real encouragement was learning how to play. So we then got nominated for the Edinburgh Award in 2006 and then nominated for the Barry Award in what was then called the Barry Award in Melbourne in 2007. And so that then meant we started to get bits and pieces of telly. So we did like a set on there was a 20th anniversary of Saturday Live and we did that with John Bon Jovi's drummer. Bon Jovi's drummer really liked us. And so that ultimately led to our own series in 2009. But I don't think that series is very good. It was kind of a square peg in a round hole that we were trying, we tried to fit in to a sitcom format. And at the time, the BBC were very keen on the idea of reviving variety. There'd been a couple of things we'd done that had been along those lines. A really good thing called Music Hall Meltdown that was directed by Jeff Posner and David Tyler had produced it. And again, they are like brilliant people in the history of British comedy. So it had proved that it could work. But the BBC were keen on these big silly daft things. And ultimately they achieved that on the sort of more interesting indie side with Miranda and on the big shiny floor BBC one primetime side with Mrs Brown's Boys. And interestingly, the bloke who directed the Clang series directed all of Mrs Brown's Boys. And so they were trying to fit us into this thing and we didn't have the courage to say no. And ultimately it doesn't work because you can see we're trying to crowbar things in. And there are bits of it that I don't mind, but ultimately it's a failure, I think. And so it's interesting where there are sketches. So the Dancing Hall sketch is a bit that I don't mind so much. But it's more, when I look back on it, it's just a fucking mess. Don't tell us by design. But I also think it's very useful. So with Greg's stuff, Greg's subsequent stuff that he's done being brilliant, it's almost like I think we all learnt lessons. And we're not blaming anyone there. We are as much at fault for it being bad. There's no resentment to anyone else. It was just, we didn't really know what we were doing. It was just learning, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How was We Are Clang Formed? So we all met, so we all started on the open spot circuit. And most of us met, we did the first ever Amuse Mousse course. So I'd been living in London and was very bored and just getting drunk all the time. I was having this real sort of long dark night of the soul of thinking, what am I doing? I've always wanted to live in London and I'm just doing nothing. Were you working at the bank that will not be named? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. And I saw a thing advertised in Time Out that was this comedy course specifically taught by Logan Murray. And the reason that caught my eye was I had used to go as a comedy fan to see these new material nights at the Fortnite Club that were often hosted by Logan doing his character Ronnie Rigsby. So I absolutely love Ronnie Rigsby. Very funny. I have only one video on YouTube I could find that was hilarious. And again, that spirit of play and just the freewheeling nature of it, it was really brilliant. And I'd also seen when I was 18 or 19, I'd seen him do an Edinburgh preview of his double act with Jerry Sadowitz. And that was unbelievable. And he was kind of the only person I've ever been aware of who was able to work with Sadowitz in a constructive way. And I can see on stage Logan is making Jerry laugh. So that was that kind of excitement of where, and I've still, I've met Sadowitz like for like 30 seconds in my life. And I can't imagine a longer conversation would necessarily be the easiest of experiences. But yeah, so that was it. It was like, well, if I don't do this now, I'm never going to do this. And because it was Logan, I thought let's give it a bash. And then of the 20 or so people assembled for that first ever course taught by Logan, it included me, Greg Davis, Rod Gilbert, Ed Petrie, who went on to host the Broom Cupboard on Children's BBC for many years. And it's a bit of a legend of children's broadcasting. Alexis Jubas, who does Marcel Leconte. Aisha Hazareka, who is now on Times Radio. And there's Cy Thomas, who's a very excellent comedian and sketch performer. So there were loads of them. And a few people who stayed on set, there was a really lovely bloke called Rob Collins, who sort of ran a few gigs for a while and was on the circuit. I think he's now packed it in. But we were incredibly lucky. There were so many of us. Oh, and Sean James, who was a bit of a legend of the circuit as well. So it was 20 strangers meeting once a week beneath a bar. And then suddenly you end up making friends out of that. And then we do our first gig. And it's something it's like, oh, my God, this is so exciting. We've got a ready made gang. And so Rob, at the time, Rob Collins was running a pub on the Strand. So he put on a regular night there and that became our first little playground. And so that's all just doing stand up. And then you become friends. Then Marek Llewod did the third ever Moose course. And at the time, we'd been going four months longer than him. It felt like, oh, welcome, junior, when you've been in the game as long as we have. And then we did like in 2002, we went out to Edinburgh for a week because we got into some of the new act finals. And then in 2003, we did a four-hand, in the days before the free fringe, we did C venues, which we didn't know at the time was mostly for students. So at that point in our late 20s, we felt very old. And that was me, Greg, Rod and Ed Petrie. And we'd invited Marek to do it, but he didn't have the money at the time. So he stayed home and worked. But that had been a lot of fun. And so towards the end of that year, Marek was saying, why don't we see if we can get, I'd signed with Avalon by this point. And Marek said, can we see if Avalon or someone could book us in like a tour, but like a fuck about tour. And he wanted it to be me, him and Greg, but just like doing a fortnight of gigs wherever would have us, but sort of mucking about and seeing what happens. So it wasn't even necessarily sketches at that point. Just full of stage time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is slightly arrogant. We barely had a 20 at that point. And we're like, yeah, that'll be, I'm sure an audience will fucking love that. So we then, a brilliant woman called Charlie Briggs, who had done various brilliant things in comedy. She said to us, well, how about instead of that, how about I book you some nights in some theatre spaces in London and you do that. So it was like the 30th of December, 2003. We were on, she booked us in for an hour. We shared a night with Colin and Fergus, who were brilliant as well. And that was the first thing we ever did. And it was like a mixture. I sort of semi-compared that. And it was like more, cause I'm not an actor. It was more Marek and Greg doing a few sketches and me chipping in if they needed a third person. And that was where it sort of, we kind of went, hang on, we're onto something here, was me sort of playing the nominal straight man against these big personalities worked. So Charlie then kept booking us in for more and more nights and suddenly they started to go, okay. And then, so then in April that year it became a chat of like, well, should we try and do Edinburgh? And I knew me and Marek were going to do the Comedy Zone that year, which obviously doesn't exist anymore, but was a big showcase in the Pleasance Courtyard and had been running since like 1991. And it was the thing people wanted to get in on. It was like a lot of talk to a lot of comedies. They had never really thought beyond if I can be in the Comedy Zone with the history it had, that was the most exciting thing. So I knew I was going to be in Edinburgh doing that. So we thought, let's just, let's book it in. And it was a really interesting thing where we didn't get too many reviews. We got a review in the stage that described us as annoying, silly and just plain dull. Dull? I'm not fair. I'm hungry. And then one year later, the stage reviewed us and said they might be the perfect sketch track. So this is, it shows you that reviews are not all that important. And it was interesting on that final night of Edinburgh, we sold three tickets, but we walked in or on passes 47 people. So we had a full 50 seater and it was all, it was mostly people in some way connected to comedy. So Dave Ward, who went on to be in the sitcom and he gave us some really excellent advice and the callback that is at the end of the Loves Young Dream song on YouTube, he suggested that callback to us. So we were always very grateful to him. But it was people like him and Christian Knowles sort of saying like, okay, well we like what you're doing. So that then led to us doing student unions where Greg would compare, I would do a set, Merrick would do a character and then we would headline as the sketch show. Oh smart. And it became like split, only having to split the money three ways, you'd make like an extra 30 quid. And these were days where it was like, we were so skint in those days. I have a memory of, we did Lancaster student union and Merrick and Greg had booked a hotel and it had resigned themselves to the fact that they were going to lose money on the round trip. Whereas I'd found a coach that was passing through Lancaster going back to London at like 2.30 in the morning. So it meant that my profit margin was 17 quid and I'm stood freezing by hoping that this coach is going to appear. And these two strangers come up to me and one of them kind of goes, well, well, looks like we found ourselves a drifter. And one of them goes, do you want to bite my burger drifter? And I was so hungry, I went yes please. And it turned out they were actually quite nice blokes. But it was chaotic, but incredibly useful that it was that real camaraderie built up of doing these gigs. And some of those gigs would be like fucking tricky. So we did Liverpool student union and there were three tables that were just all on coke and which changes the dynamic when they're, but it meant that we could then be, because there's three of us, we can be a bit more aggressive than we might otherwise be if we were on our own. So it was this rule like, all right then fucking come on. And weirdly years later I found out that the first gig that Kiri Pritchard McLean ever went to as a student, first comedy night she ever went to was that gig. So she'd remembered the chaos of that. So I was like, did we do it? And she was going, oh no, you won, you boys won. And thankfully she wasn't on the cocaine tables. But yeah, so it was this kind of, it was really sort of chaotic way we all got together. And then it slowly turned into like, okay, well we're actually in a position where this is now quite good and there is potentially, it's not necessary money to be made. You're not thinking in those terms, but you're thinking this isn't pointless. There is a, this is a worthwhile thing to do. And how were you riding for that as a group? I mean, we never really found a good way. It was aggressive, organic would be the way that I always felt that it worked better if we arrived with nothing and we start and we try to fuck about together. Like if one, if someone, I always thought if someone brought a sketch, it was a bit tricky because they're a bit too wedded to it and you're not, you know, they're defensive. If you pitch a thing and the others don't like it, you're suddenly like, well, fuck you. So I always thought the ones that work best were when we started with us. And so there are a couple of days where I'd said, let's just go around Camden market and like, let's buy shit and like anything that makes us laugh and see what we can do with that. So, or like drunk purchases on eBay and let's bring stuff. So that was like Greg had bought. And this is in the days that rubber horse's head you now see everywhere. But when we first did that, like it wasn't everywhere. It was like Greg had found it somewhere and it was like, I've got this and it made me laugh, but I've got no clue what to do with it. And that day I'd been listening to Echo and the Bunny Men who have a song called Brie on the Dancing Horses. So that was it. It's like those two things. If Greg hadn't randomly seen this thing, I think on eBay, and if I hadn't happened to listen to Echo and the Bunny Men that day. And so it then became like, okay, well, let's do that. But then we didn't have an end point in sight. It was doing it at the King's Head that night where we suddenly went, but it was all, that was where it felt amazing that there was a telepathy to it. That we were getting the audience to shout out suggested dances. And then the idea of like, oh, let's just try and fucking knacker him out. And that's the gag is we're just, we are, this sketch is a tool to bully our friend. And then Marik gets it as well. And so because we're not actually bullying the real person. And he's even the double-take. So when someone suggests an ultra energetic dance, Marik can do an exaggerated double-take in the horse's head. That's magical. And so it's that thing. It's like trying to be open to as many different avenues of joke where, so some of it's written and some of it you'd go away and sort of go, okay, now that we've got the framework, here's a one-liner that could go in. But also you're looking to how is the dynamic on stage? What's the funniest way of reflecting the dynamic? And then fun appears as well, as you said, when you're on the stage, when you're messing about with the lines and stuff. Just, that's so fun. That's right. So even like, yeah, with like the loves young dream song for a long time, I think for the entirety of that Edinburgh run, I did, I realized I was like getting Greg to explain his bit, but I wasn't then saying to Marik and you set off a speed camera, you set off a speed camera. And that arrived like one of the first gigs we did after Edinburgh. I was like, oh, hang on. It's one of my big obsessions with like whatever form I'm writing in, it's looking for the spaces where jokes can go and just like where, what can be expanded. And in some cases it might be like, okay, if I put a joke in here, it actually ruins the flow of the whole thing. But you can always find a space. There was always in one of the sketches where Greg would say, why are you so happy? And I would say it's in the dancing horse kitchen. My character would say, I'm happy because I've got a dancing horse. Then I realized I can say, I'm happy for two reasons. Thing number one, something irrelevant to the plot. Thing number two, I've got a dancing horse. And so, and again, that thing could change. So again, it would be like, it could be like, I'm happy because I'm on glue. Something as throw away as that. But late in life, we could say, I'm happy for two reasons. Reason number one, I'm an active member of the national front. Thing number two, I've got a dancing horse. And so it's like finding the space for a joke. And again, that's the joke itself can change. And that brings joy to them. And that brings joy to the room. That's very cool. And it's always doing that. It's always looking for where is a little extra thing that you can, how can you squeeze the value up? So if I'm working, if I'm directing a show, I'm always, that's one of my big things to say. And it's where you're not prescribing what the joke should be, but you're sort of saying, I think there's a thing. If you explain this, you can sort of go, now you might not all know what this thing is. So let me tell you what it is. And then there's the space for a joke. So I read in one of your descriptions as you direct a lot of amber shows. And it was a funny line, but it was going from one star to three star. Yeah. It's always an interesting thing where it's been very different experience. I've worked with some really successful things or where I've been brought on early enough that it's flat. Because I never really go in search. I don't think I've ever advertised my services as a director. It's always been someone getting in touch. So for example, so this was not in a rescue mission, but Christian Knowles, who at the time was managing Norris and Parker and Tom Ward. And Christian got in touch and said, do you want to meet up with Tom and with Norris and Parker and just see if there's a chemistry there? And that really was. And so with both of them, that was like very early on in the process. And I absolutely loved, so I directed Tom's first two shows. And it was obvious that he's a special talent. And some of that becomes, it's interesting, it becomes different things. So with some people, there's an element of pastoral care where you're trying to just keep them focused and not let the bullshit of Edinburgh affect them negatively psychologically. And so with things like that, it's a joy to work with. And similarly, I did Pappy's in 2007 when they got nominated. But with that show, I didn't think they actually needed a lot. I did that for free just because I loved those boys so much. And it was very obvious at the time that the show was almost perfect when I first saw it. And with that, it was more like, because that was in the time where Clang were flavour of the month. So it felt like it was like an element of patronage, but there's got to be a better word than patronage. But it felt like this is Clang's moment. But so we're trying to pay it forward to the next brilliant thing coming through. And I was also aware that I knew they were great. So I would hopefully look a bit cooler by working with them. And how does the process work? So when you cut like they, in that case, do you just watch the whole show and take? Yeah, yeah. So I'll ask people to send me recordings wherever possible. I always, I basically try and massively over deliver time. So I'll get people to send me recordings because then I can listen to it loads and loads of times. And you sort of need that to fully get into the way you can. Because when you're on the circuit, even your good friends, you might only gig with them twice a year. And so you don't get an accurate reflection of like the way they deliver a line. It might be that just on that one night, they delivered the line a slightly weird way, or the audience reacted a bit odd. Whereas when you've listened to eight recordings, you can say, okay, you always deliver this line in a slightly aggressive way. And it never quite gets what you want. Have you thought about changing that either rewriting or just softening your delivery and see what happens? So that it was that kind of thing. And then obviously you're then looking at the structure and suggesting, does it flow? Does it make sense narratively and so on? But yeah, it was always that thing of, I think if someone's paying you to direct them, within comedy, I always hate, I slightly shudder at the word directing in terms of comedy, because plays need directing. Often with comedy, it's more you are a creative consultant. And you're basically, someone is paying you to be completely honest. But if there's someone you don't know, we've all got some of our closest friends in comedy. We might not feel we can be fully honest with them, because you might have that moment like, he fucking loves that bit. It always dies on its ass and he doesn't realise. But if I tell him, it's going to upset him and it'll be an argument. So do I let him work it out over time? Good job. And so as a director, it is just directly saying to someone, that bit does not work or that bit is wrong for these reasons. Or you don't realise this, but when you say this word, people are thinking that you're about to be misogynistic or whatever it might be. And it is being paid to be brutally honest. But that's all useful for the performance. Yeah. And so it's, and that's where you can tell when someone takes that note well, you're like, okay, well, this is someone I know I can work with. So I've done a few things with Chris Turner over the years, who I love working with. And he's always very receptive to a note. Even if he doesn't agree with it, he will try and see it from where I'm coming from and really make steps to think, okay, well, how can I address that note and still stay true to what his vision of the show is? Yeah. So there'll be shows like that, but then there are also, yeah, every now and then there are shows where it's like the 20th of July. Yeah. There were one or two over the years where it's like, it's tricky because you're like, okay, well, if I'd have spoken to this person in March, I could have helped. As it is, you just have to sort of go, okay, well, let's, how do we patch up this dinghy? And in some of the process, just review all the footage. Yeah. Yeah. And in some cases, just saying to them, like, again, in terms of the blunt honesty of saying, like, you are in an element of shit here. And we've had that with Klang where the year we got nominated, the first couple, we weren't ready. The show was not ready when we came up. And so Logan came up to Edinburgh, which is incredibly kind of him. And we took the first three shows, we were able to keep the reviewers out for the first three shows and made the changes, dropped a sketch that wasn't working, brought something in that hadn't quite made the cut and that it would save the day. I've done Logan's course myself, so I'm interested to hear, obviously it's evolved over the years, but when he comes up to help as a director, is he just like run it through and have fun? Or is he still as fun self or does he go more? It's still fun and it's still lots of like, yeah, run it. But he is thinking about, and he's actually good at blocking and proper theatrical direction. But yeah, his whole thing was like staying true to ourselves. So what is the dynamic and how are the audience reacting to what we're doing? So it's like if someone is too aggressive within the dynamic of the three, the audience will say, oh, steady on. So I remember there was one year where one of the sketches, I start in a coma and Marek in one show, he threw a pint of water over me. And the audience were like, oh. And it was weird that even that within our prescribed rules where we're kids fighting in a sand pit, the audience were like, oh, that's a bit mean. And so that was an interesting thing where Logan was great with that of like, what is, preserving the right element. So it's play and it's teasing, but how do you preserve the twinkle in the eye? Which again, and that was again, which crosses over with him working with Sadowitz where the kids again, Jerry, the Edema preview that I went to of the bib and Bob show that he did with Sadowitz, a member of the audience said to Jerry fucking Sadowitz, why don't you fuck off back to Oxbridge? He thought that Jerry Sadowitz was a member of Cambridge. And so Sadowitz is on stage pissing himself laughing at first, because he's like, but like Jerry's like, he's like, and I spent my childhood in the gawb was having the fuck kicked out of me. And you think I went to Oxford or Cambridge and he then spat on the audience. So it's like, it's like, yeah, as a little 19 year old comedy, this is amazing. But Logan was able to help walk the gig back into the light and it remained charming and it was amazing to watch. But that, yeah, so he was always brilliant at that. That was good. You were receptive to feedback as well. Cause you could use it to win an awards. Well, let's take it back to your standup if you don't mind. So your first gig, was it the showcase for the comedy? Of course. Not quite because so I had done, I had done, taking it way back. One of my best mates at school was a brilliant comedian and writer called Mark Haynes. And we'd always been comedy fans and we'd always known we'd quite like to try standup at some point. But it had been, you know, we were too scared. And we used to swap letters. He was at Leeds university and I know we'd swap letters and he then did a standup gig and he used some jokes that I'd put in one of my letters to him. So it was incredibly flattering. And he was like, Oh, you know, this is like the best drug I've ever done. The adrenaline of it is, you know, you've got to do it. Even if you just treat it like a bungee jump. You know, what an experience. And he then entered one of the new app competitions. So the daily telegraph opened Mike award. He entered that and got into the final. So we went up to Edinburgh in 1998 for a couple of days to see that final. And in that final, you had people like Dan Antipolsky, Jeff Whiting, Steven Grant, Stephen Merchant was in it and Mark won it. And it was one of these things where it was a real like where our Edinburgh sort of got flipped upside down because we, we'd kind of thought like, Oh, this is a bit of fun. And then suddenly he's getting like nonstop, like, you know, we're going to make you a star. And he was kind of quite freaked out. And then he didn't put massive, he did, he then did a couple of standup gigs and didn't love it. So to this day, I think he's done fewer than 30, 30 standup gigs, because it was like, it wasn't, he didn't like the travel. He didn't like the sort of the loneliness of the lifestyle. And so he's now like a, he's one of Richard Bacon's closest associates, like writes for Richard Bacon and things like that. So he's, he, and he's had like a long and fruitful career doing lots of stuff. But at the time there was like some gigs when he was deciding he wasn't quite fancying it. He got me, he asked me to fill in. And so it was a bit literally like an open spot gig. So in between 98 and 99, I did maybe a dozen gigs. And the first one of those lasted a minute and a half and finished with me saying, I don't think I'll be doing this again. And it really was just for like the, let's just do this and see how it feels. And so I'd done a handful of them and I hadn't, it had been an interestingly, I mean, I'd enjoyed it, but it had also been, it had felt very cliquey and very confusing and like, I don't exactly know what this is. And at the time you had people either just directly copying Eddie Izzard or people trying to be an edgy motherfucker, trying to be Bill Hicks. And so you'd sort of see this and it would, you'd end up thinking, well, I don't know. I can't be as good as the people who I think are brilliant, but also I worry that I'm as self-deluded as some of the people I've watched. And so I then didn't go anywhere near stand up for a couple of years. And then, and then it was, so that was why the Moose course finally then became like this. I was like, it's now or never, you're either going to scratch this itch for good or just, or never try again and always regret it. Will Barron Did you know you were joining one of the strongest courses? Will Barron Yeah. And then that was the thing that within the first couple of weeks of that course, it was like, oh, this is the best decision I've made where we were just laughing so much. And also it's inevitably quite flattering if people think that you're good. It's incredibly exciting. So the first time I realized that Greg Davis thinks I'm funny or Ed Petrie thinks I'm funny, that's so flattering. And so yeah, then we did the showcase gigs, which again, and they're almost slightly, they're almost a bit of a false positive because they are so lovely that you sort of like, and is this real? Will Barron Just asking Logan how do I get signed after the showcase? I remember when I came off after that first showcase gig, Logan said to me, you've got an amazing career ahead of you. Which is like, I still fucking get tingles when I think of that. And so that was the thing that it was then, and then that led to like, well, okay, well, where are the gigs? How do we find more gigs? And so that led to Rob Collins, his pub, the Nell Gwyn, he then put on regular nights. And that's a funny pub to go back into because when like, at the time when you're doing it, it feels like a massive room. And then when you walk past it, it's a fucking tiny pub. And yeah, and it was just, and that's where like, you know, you start doing laughing horse gigs. And within that year, Greg won the laughing horse competition that year. And in fact, he was so low on self belief in those, as I went to all his heats and the semi-final, he had been on quite early and thought he hadn't done well enough. I had no doubt that he was going to win. So he got me to record it. And this is in the days of like the chunkier recorders. So I'd recorded his set for him. And when they were announcing the winners, I pressed record on that because I knew they were going to say his name and he still got it somewhere. So it's his name being read out. And then me said to the camera, how about that then? Well, well, well. So it was that excitement at that. And then I got into the Daily Telegraph Open Mike award of 2002, that final that Mark Watson won. And again, that's where, in though, you know, when you're in Edinburgh for that, again, you're getting extra gigs here and there. And so that's when agencies like Avalon start saying, well, would you want to do our student union gigs? And so you're so there. And it feels like it's one of those things it feels like at the time that it takes ages. The reality is it's 18 months, but it felt, you know, like you're nervously checking. Like in those days, well, I remember Greg confessing that like he would look at, because you could have people could comment on your total review and they might appear. And so he was, you know, he confessed to me that like he would look like three times a day to see if any new comments have been added. And I'd say to him, I do exactly the same. You were doing Instagram. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like checking yourself on Twitter. But from the start that, well, obviously from the course then we thinking, okay, I'm going to try to be professional comedian. No, no. At the time it was just like, I was, one of the things that had got me to do it was I'd been through like a bad breakup and it was a real, yeah, it was so, it is every cliche. So it was this real like, well, I don't need her. I'm going to show her. I'm going to make 30 drunk people laugh for four and a half minutes. Me. Yeah. And so it was just fun and it was such a joyful gang to be part of. Like Rod at the time was working for like a market research agency and they had an office in Soho. So I remember there was a big couple of nights where you do a gig and then you could have like a late night drink Rod's workplace. Because it was like quite a funky Soho establishment. It was the sort of place where they had a meeting room where you could just talk bollocks and get drunk into the small hours. And then it was a gig. I had no idea I was being paid for it that I'd done an open spot in Cricklewood and the one who was running it said, Oh, would you want to come back and do 10? So I did that and I had no idea that that was, and she'd run clubs in the 80s. So she was very much on the socialist principles of the early circuit. So she was like, no, you're doing a half spot. So you get paid. So I got 22 quid and some mates of mine had come along to that. So I bought us all kebabs at the end of the night and it was like, I just bought my mates kebabs. And that bit was the first inkling of like, Oh, hang on a second. I wouldn't mind this. And then, yeah, and then still where you sort of know you're vaguely onto something, but you're almost not allowing it. You don't dare to think that you could be up. That there's an escape. Yeah. Yeah. And all that this could be an actual living. It always felt like, okay, well, this is a laugh. And actually it's like, it's helped me drink less, which was, which was something that was bothering me at the time. And also that, yeah, that you're having a great night out and you're being paid for it rather than. And you've got your friends that are coming along with you. So when did you finally quit the, so I then I got made redundant. The best thing that happened, this entire of the bank that will not be named, they were selling off our entire building got sold off and so everyone got made redundant. So it was a phase of like culturally, like anthropologically fascinating time where 300 people knew they were losing their job. And the different ways that they all handled it. So, cause there'd been something that had been in the same building for 25 years. So there's literally like people like punching each other or like confessing love. So it's like, there's literally like, there's like, like, you know, people banging in the cubicles. Like it was, yeah, yeah. It was, it was, it was, it was wonderfully chaotic. And how were you reacting? Well, yeah. So I was just, and I haven't been there that long. So, so I knew the thing that I was excited about was I knew that the little redundancy payout I was going to get meant I could definitely do Edinburgh and not have to worry too much. And so that was, yeah, that was early 2003 that that happened, which meant that we could, so that the three men in a giant show, we could do that and I could be like, okay, well, I can actually not have to work in June and July. So I can, I can make sure that I'm writing. And then, and then in that 2003, the BBC new act final was that year. And that happened in Edinburgh and Rod won that and me and Greg Cook, God rest his soul. We were both runners up. So suddenly there's this weird little coup for our tiny little new act show in, in CIVA news, where we've got the winner and one of the runners up are in that show. So, so, so weirdly that show then ended up breaking even because we were selling well enough. Oh, that must have been the magical moment then when you realized you could break even. Yeah, yeah. And it was, yeah. And it really was like this where people are going, what the fuck? Like the other comments get, what, who have you fucking bribed for this? How have you managed this? And we were just like aware that we'd got lucky. There were a few decisions we'd made. Like we'd, we basically started as early as we could. So there was a week zero in Edinburgh on a night where there were hardly any shows up. We got two reviewers in because they want, the reviewers wanted to get going. So we got, we got a four star review in the Metro very early on, which meant like, okay, we're at the races with this. Yeah. It's very strong to start with. What advice would you give to people going up to Edinburgh night? It's interesting because I've not done it for a while. So obviously the game has changed. The best advice I was ever given, David O'Doherty said to me, um, remember that it's a month, uh, and that any month of your life has shit days and like, for no reason that, you know, that it's, you know, you sleep badly or, uh, you're a tiny bit hung over or you've had a bad phone call with a relative or whatever it might be. And so no month of anyone's life is perfect. There's always days that are. And so that whether a show, if a show is amazingly brilliant or a show is amazingly shit, this too shall pass. And so it really is that thing. So, so just that thing of looking after yourself for the month. When, uh, when blur at the height of their fame, uh, Alex James had a policy where every Wednesday he wouldn't, whatever they were doing, he would be every Wednesday, he would be completely sober and he would phone his grandma, like things like that. He would do those little bits of, uh, self care, but also just calm, uh, that would help him not go completely loopy. And so, yeah, I try treating Edinburgh like, like you're in blur at the height of their success. Cause you see it with certain people and it like, I'm always fascinated. You never know who it's going to be where there are people who it suddenly becomes apparent that they would, that they really thought they were going to win best newcomer or something like that. And often it's like, sometimes you get people who post things on Facebook and it'll be like a lengthy paragraph written in early September about like their reflections on the month that they've had and be like, I'll be honest. I was so gutted when I saw them, you know, the nominations come out and you're like, Oh, Oh, right. I had no, you had no clue that that's how they were thinking. Um, and so it really is just, just it's utter chaos. And so enjoy it, but, but just try to be self-aware with it. And, uh, yeah, not like, don't, don't worry too much about, and it's difficult because, because like the moment we became aware that the judges were sniffing around us, inevitably like going, Oh, that'd be, that'd be pretty cool. But, um, but yeah, it's, but that is the biggest thing. It's just, it's a month. And like to the point where like the American comics, when they cut, when they do Edinburgh, they are openly laughing at the insanity of that festival being a month long, because you sort of know who the winners and losers are after, after the first one. And obviously this is one of the key ways it's changing is that you get, there are now people, loads more people not doing the full run. And it's, that seems to work, particularly because the whole, the expense of it and the, and the, the rent situation in Edinburgh is so repulsive at the moment that I don't know how much sense it makes anymore. Uh, and I'm glad, I'm glad it's not a decision I have to worry too much about because, but, but this is the way that it's changed now, that obviously having a presence, having a following before you do Edinburgh is really important now. And that, you know, that was never the case when we were first doing it. So if you were to be made redundant today and you were in the same sort of error with your comedy, what would you, would you have done anything different? So as in, if I was new starting now, when you were me, I'm trying to, this is going to be a long, as if, so you were back to where you were at your comedy stage. Like you've just been, you've done the competitions and stuff. You've got the trio. And then you're working at the bank, but then you're made redundant. Like what would be your strategy if you were at that level of comedy? But it happened now. If it happened now, I think we would probably be more tech savvy. So that was the thing. And that's one of the key that I'm, uh, I'm, you know, I was of a generation where I'm still shit with me, with social media in general, um, that we would, you know, I think we would be aware that we would be filming this stuff and sort of trying to put- You would have amazing footage. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, it would be wonderful. Yeah. And so like, like we've got like the, for example, we have a live show that we never released and the rights just returned to us a year or two ago. Um, and I don't know whether we, what the weather will do anything. If we do put it anywhere, I would like to raise money for charity with it because it's, it's one of those things. There's a few bits that haven't aged so well. So so it's, I would prove it's, it's almost the sort of thing there. The limited number of people to be interested in it. I would prefer it to raise money for a good cause than to line our pockets. But so even with that, I, the Chris from go faster stripe has done a brilliant job of editing that and making it look better for, uh, for in the 14 or 15 years since we filmed it. Um, so it's things like that, that I'm still terrible at. Uh, but whereas it's almost that generational thing that, that now if I, if I was 20 years younger, I would imagine I would have grown up with a better understanding and even just, I've seen it with Kiri because Kiri wrote on Russell show for a long time and she'd sit next to me and I'd be like struggling with an Instagram post, uh, you know, and I had you put text on this and then she just, you know, yeah, like 20 seconds. She makes it look amazing. And that's where, and, and it's obviously like, again, I've, I have never been overly fussed about it and I've been lucky in that I haven't had to, but I'm certainly paying the price for that. Now that, um, me and Steve Williams are doing a tour. So Steve Williams, brilliant writer and comedian, and, uh, we are doing some of the support slots for Russell Howard on his tour at the moment and Russell's suggestion was that we book our, we do our own little tour. So, so me and Stevie are doing a joint headline tour later in the year, but the act of selling that to the punters at the, at the gigs, uh, involves a spiel that is like so challenging for me because I'm so bad at self promotion. And so, um, just chats with people who are younger and better. So Phil Chapman, I was having a chat to him and he had opened for, um, uh, I think for Paul Smith. Um, and he just, he had a, uh, one of those posts, one of those posters that just you pull up and his key thing was I've got a key, he's got a QR code so they just, they can scan the QR code and it will take them to where they can buy tickets for his tour. And he said, as soon as he did that, he got way more followers and way more ticket sales. So we've done that for this tour and it's revolutionized it where, where suddenly it could, because our whole thing was we put in a date in a city where one of us is open for Russell. So Stevie, uh, was opening for him in Bristol and we've then got a tour date at the, at the Alma theater in, in, in Bristol later in the year. And Steve sold out the show on the first night because the QR code thing worked so well. And it was always that thing that people would be into us and they would sort of go, Oh yeah, I'll buy tickets. But then they would forget the name or just life gets in the way. Whereas that thing of getting them while they're they've just, you know, literally where they're buying tickets in the interval because they're going, Oh, I love that bloke. Oh yeah, let's hope. Oh, and the QR code is so easy, but it is it's something like in the same way that people, obviously there's comedy courses have been very successful. I don't know if there is like a social media course for confused middle-aged comedians. I think that would be a real money spinner. That's very funny. Um, talk about Russell Hart. How did you meet Russell? So I met Russell. We were just on, it was all on the circuit. Partly we I'd signed to Avalon when I signed to Avalon very early. Cause I'll go back. I'll come back to us. But how did you, how did you end up signing? So I signed with Avalon. So the, the daily telegraph open mic award, that was a competition that was run by Avalon. So the, the semi-finals of that gig would take place in student unions that were Avalon student union nights. Um, and so that's how you first get seen. Uh, and so that's where you're first on their radar from that. And then their live desk on the back of the telegraph final in Edinburgh that year, they gave them my first support slots at their student union gigs. And so it begin, that's where it begins to sort of slowly come together. And it's, again, it's amazing how supportive that world is that the, the heat that I did to get into the final of that, the very, you do a heat and then if the heat goes well, you might, but you just, it's just an open spot basically. And then you might get selected to be into one of the semi-finals. And I found it. So my heat for that was like my seventh ever gig. And it later emerged that the reason I got put through into the semi-final was Dan Antepolsky, the headline at that night had phoned up the live desk and said, uh, the open spot last night was excellent. So again, incredibly generous thing for him to do. Will you get so excellent at seven? I would just been thinking about comedy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was the thing. It's like ultra nerdy. So it was like a lot of pent up energy, but also I think the brilliance of Logan's course, whatever low like Logan's thing about finding what's funny about yourself and those basic exercises he teaches. So I still come back to it as a writing exercise. If I'm blocked, one of his things is right, a list of 10 things you hate sincerely, right? A list of 10 things you love sincerely, but empty your head of them. Don't just let it be like, I hate something obvious like, like, because the more quirky and idiosyncratic those things are, the more of yourself you are revealing. And sometimes the reason you hate a thing might be funny for its sheer stupidity or illogicality, or it might be that there's a funny story behind why you hate this thing. So that really opens stuff up. And so there's a one line. I sort of moved away from one liners, but there was a joke that I wrote in that writing exercise that ended up in the days before Dave's best joke of the fringe. There were a few other publications would do those best jokes and the independent put it in, so the joke was, I despise cliquiness for reasons only my four closest friends will ever properly understand. And it was a really weird joke for that to because it's so that'd been a one liner. I'd literally written on the comedy course. What made it odd about them putting in as the best joke of the fringe was I didn't have it in my fridge. It was obviously, I must've given it to something for some PR thing at some point in the past. I read that earlier by the way, and the research and I was very impressed. And in fact, it always made me laugh that for some reason the independent edited the word because technically cliquiness is not the correct grammatical word. The word is cliquishness. So the editor changed it to I despise cliquishness for reasons only my four closest friends will ever properly understand. And now I was aware that cliquishness was the correct word, but I didn't say cliquishness because it makes it sound like you're telling the joke in 1772. So it still boils my piss to this day. Well, that's what they be as a kid from a gig seven. Yeah. And so that's the thing. So you start doing those Avalon student gigs and again, you'd be opening for, I remember I would be opening for Andy Zoltzman quite a bit. And again, just it's so cool. And again, he's so brilliant and such a kind person and a lovely person to just chat to. And he was saying that when he first signed to Avalon, they had him opening for 60 or 70 gigs opening for Stuart Lee. So it was, you really felt like you were part of this kind of heritage. And you were, because that was. And so that was the thing that I then did a couple with Russ. And in fact, like the first time we didn't really get on that well. We did a long drive and I think he found me overly neurodiverse. And then we became proper mates. So we were sort of parallel. So we always got on well. It wasn't like dislike or anything like that. I think he just thought I was a weirdo. And then we did, we got nominated the same year. And again, it was like a brilliant year to be nominated in because it was us, Paul Sinhar, Phil Nicol, David O'Doherty and Russ. Again, I mean, that's in terms of the history of the nominations. There's no women on that list at all. So that's slightly, doesn't age well that nomination list, but they were all wonderful people. And then we did Melbourne in 2007. And that's where we properly start to hang out. In those days, Marek and Greg wanted to go straight to the bar. As soon as the show finished, they just wanted to get on it straight away. Whereas me and Russ would just preferred a meal before we do that. So we did a lot of just, and that was because Melbourne has got such a brilliant food culture. We would just do a lot of eating and then we'd still go on. We'd still meet up with the others afterwards. Just line the stomach first. It was exactly that. It was. I'm a bit of a lightweight. I didn't want to ruin my reputation of puking in the middle of the bar. And so we got on really well doing that. And then I ended up, my now wife, she is Australian. And in October of that year, Clang had done some gigs in Singapore and I flew on and it was like my trial month with my now wife to like, let's see if this is going to be a proper relationship. Few open spots. And in fact, Greg at the time was recording the then unheard of first series of The Inbetweeners. So it was funny. And I got back from that first trip with my now wife and Russell was doing his first mini tour and he was miserable. And so someone, Avalon said, he's on his own. And it was basically him and the tour manager at the time. They clearly didn't like each other. And they were saying, so would you like your, you know, you're obviously, we still want you to do the gigs and you are being employed because you've got jokes, but also can you look after Russ a bit? Because he's really like, he's quite down in the dumps. At the time it should be exciting. And so I arrive and I do like two weeks on the road. And it is the strangest dynamic where this tour manager clearly thinks he's shit. And so he's saying things in the car. He's saying things like, oh, the girlfriend and I, we went to see Jason Manford. Now he is funny. And Russ is like, hang on a second. That's so mean because like, number one, yes, Jason is brilliant. But like trying to present it as if like there's a difference. Like that's, and it's like, what are you, like he's on stage in half an hour and you're saying that to him. And he would do things like he would play in. So Russell had like an upbeat guitar track as his walk on music. And the tour manager would change it without warning him, but would change it to weird things like the police academy theme tune, which is a very slow pace. So it's completely bad for the gig. And it's like, it's a really, really weird thing to do. It was very odd. I don't know what that was. There were certain nights where it emerged that like the tour manager would literally like go, I'm getting tired. Now you drive Russ. So Russ is driving home while the tour manager is snoring next to him. And so I, yeah, I just was able to make Russ laugh and was, and was like, just trying to smooth things over. There was a brilliant thing where we were doing a gig in Cumbria and the tour manager, I mean, this is, I actually got on quite well with the tour manager. That made me feel guilty as well. I thought it was quite a nice bloke, but his mom and dad ran a guest house in Cumbria. And so he said, oh, to save money rather than getting you a hotel, we'll stay at my mom's hotel. And we arrive and it becomes very obvious that his parents' hotel is specifically for old people. But like, not as thematically, it is over 55 only. So there's plastic sheets on all the beds. There's plastic sheeting and we didn't eat in the breakfast place. We ate up with them in their little living quarters. And I died hard at the gig. And I'd done like a Harold Shipman joke or something like that. And like the dad is referring back to this. And Russell has slagged off the Daily Mail and the dad is very pointedly reading the Daily Mail and going, hope you don't mind this Russell. And this has probably saved him like 200 quid. And we're having the most surreal experience we've ever had. So it's, but yeah, and so that was it. And it sort of then led to writing opportunities when he was on Mock the Week, but also it was like, okay, well, there's enough of a friendship here. And again, we're stylistically different enough that the gig works. And then it just led onto some really fun times. One of my favourite memories, this is, I think this is 2008. What he would do in the 2008 tour, he would sort of get me involved if needed. So I would be on the offstage mic and it was more like I would wait for him to cue me. And it was just sometimes like if he was bored or if he got a bit thrown by something, in some cases, if he hadn't heard what the audience member said, because often he would kick off the encore by kind of going any questions. And so in 2008, in Bradford, this kid goes, this kid shouts out, will you sign my shoe? And I go, yeah, yeah, throw it down. So the kid throws his shoe onto the stage and goes, right, Hawley, get on. So I come on and he goes, and he's just basically like the cue to do something funny with the shoe. So I start dancing with the shoe and then I put the shoe down my pants and I'm just, and I'm pretending to have sex with the shoe. But I'm like, the full clang energy is coming out. I'm doing this far too aggressively. I'm really, I'm pounding away on this shoe. And I sort of roll over as if I'm spent, as if I've just fetched. And you hear this kid just go, I just want my shoe back. And so I roll over and it's sticking out like that. It's sticking out the top. So Russ, I go to Russ to pull it, and Russ pulls the shoe out and somehow my cock and balls come out at the same time, because they'd somehow ended up in the sole, in the footwell, if you know what I mean. And so, and we're so tired. Like we've been on the road for, and there's 1600 people in Bradford and we're all laughing. It's like a moment of utter hysteria where we know the audience are happy with this. We're literally, we've completely lost our shit. And there's one kid who's by this point has gone to the standby, the stage, just looking so fucking upset. That's the word that she wrote. So yeah. And so, and that was always that thing of like trying to create that chaos. So there's a thing, I don't think it's on, I don't think I sent you it and I was going to send you it. My favourite clang bit of chaos is we were doing some warmup for the live show that's not been released and we hadn't done the sketches for a while. And there's a sketch in which I kiss and lick Marek's head. And he, in the time he'd started shaving his head a lot closer. So I get a pure hit of salt. Like it's utter, it's so sweaty. It's like the saltiest thing I've ever taken. And I'd had a can of Coke before the show. And I just puke on him. And this is videoed where it's frothy Coca-Cola-y. And you can see it and it's utter chaos where I'm holding him. I'm so horrified. Greg is not aware that it's happening. So Greg's playing on the guitar. The audience are losing their damn minds. And Greg's clearly thinking like, we are storming it tonight. And then Greg slowly works out what's happening. Marek at some point storms off. Well, not storms off, but goes back to the stage to tidy himself up. And I have to say to Greg, I accidentally puked on Marek. It's just joyful. And I love, apparently when we finished that sketch, we were all off stage. Marek turned to Greg and went, he did that on purpose. But then when he watched the video back later that night, he texted me to say, oh, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen. But it was that like when you can get to that level of insanity. Was there like rules to build the chaos up or insanity? Like how did you? There were certain, because there was a loose structure, there were little cues we could give each other. So, and there's almost like areas where you can do it. So that when they would do the, that Greg would play a magician called Derren Chilblain and Marek would be the hapless stooge. And they, there were, that was the two of them. And there were things in that. So that sketch, the sketch has written would be 11 minutes long, but they could fuck about. And it's, so there were nights where that sketch would be 20 minutes long. And depending on the mood and depending on how naughty they were feeling, you could sort of see where it would go. And there were individual bits where they could like individual moments where they know, like, okay, this is an opportunity to fuck about, but we could also just barrel on. So there was another one. We had the world insult championships and a round in that would be the audience nomination round where we would go into the crowd and get them to shout stuff at us. And there was a logic to it in that at the end of the sketches, basically somewhat, a member of the audience would say something really mild and we would then act utterly offended. And I had to pick the person and I had this knack of getting, I could pick someone who I knew was going to say something weak. And it was like this, it was this weird sort of spider sense 95% of the time it would work. But every now and then I would pick someone who looked incredibly timid, who would then say the most horrendous thing. And so there were little cues we could give each other like, oh, okay, well, we can't end on that. So it's even just like a little, you know, spin on the hand gesture. So there was a girl once she was like 15. And I thought there's no way she's going to say anything bad. And she looked at Marik and said, you are a failed abortion. So it's like absolutely remarkable. Well, me and Greg are high fiving her, but that's one where you know that you carry on, you enjoy the chaos of it, but you then have to keep the sketch going to find a good way to end it. Cause I love when acts cultivate chaos. So it was just, I guess, just how fun was the main role. And it's quite, cause I'm very, I'm quite deadpan and static as a standup. So it was as a way of encouraging me to sort of let go of the balloon a bit more because like often the weirdest gigs come out of nowhere where it might be there's even just in normal standup, that whatever happens, it's like, you know, the first time something happens to disrupt your set, because when you're new, you're like, I've got my five minutes and if I forget it, I'm going to have to start all over again in my head. So that thing of like, if something goes wrong or something goes weird, being able to sort of go, okay, well let's deal with this. Let's drink all we can from this and then move on, but not, I'd be like, I need to get back to normal again. And so that was very useful to me. So one of the weirdest gigs I ever did doing standup was doing a gig in Prague. It was just before Christmas. And there was the, the compare was a local check. I don't think he was even a comic. I think he might've just been a promoter. And he, he said he was going to do some warmup and then bring me on. And it almost, he wasn't doing any material or any crowd work. He got four people out of the crowd and he said that this was a traditional Czech Christmas game where he, he got a big bowl and he got small pieces of fruit, of dried fruit and he soused them in alcohol, like, like a load of alcohol. And he then set light to the fruit with the alcohol. And the game was they had to eat as many of the pieces of fruit as they could. And whoever could eat the most pieces of fruit would, would be the winner. And so, but it's fucking burning. And so it's this weird game where he does that. They're literally putting like burning or molten fruit into their mouth. And then he declares a winner and then instantly goes, now please welcome your first act, Steve Hall. And of course, four people in the audience can't applaud because they've just very severely burnt their hands. And so that's one of those things where the sheer chaos of that, like it felt like the clang training had helped with that, where you can sort of go, okay, well, this needs some dealing with. And even, you know, I think I said something cheesy, like, you know, when he said he was going to warm up the audience. But yeah, so it's, it's that, it's always interesting. Like, it's like, like I used to, yeah, my instinct used to be to like run away from chaos, whereas actually done the right way. If, if, as long as it's good hearted and it's not someone just being a cunt or trying to ruin the gig, that it can be really joyful. And with the writing with you and Russell, how does the typical session work? Do you both come with ideas? Well, it's, it's more cause it's for the TV show. And so there's always a group of us. So, so, uh, uh, with that, within the writer's room, there'd be four or five people, but we'd also benefited from a brilliant research team. So, so whatever there'd be stuff that would be sent through from the week, from the week's news and often bits of footage chopped up, but also part of the job when you're working on the TV show would be you keep an eye out for wacky stories. And so often, or you might do a paper troll as well as, but you're looking for something to jump off. Um, and, and you'd pitch them and obviously it has to appeal to Russ. So sometimes you might be convinced that some, so I remember me and Steve Williams, when Jussie Smollett, when that story broke a couple of years ago, uh, we had to pitch that about six times to Russ before he finally went with it. Um, and then we were then when, uh, when Dave Chappelle then covered it, we were quite pleased that we'd sort of, yeah. Yeah. Um, but, and so it is that, but it's almost like the skill with those things. It's, it's much, it's quite similar to writing on your own, but it's just, it's writing that speed, uh, and with clarity, uh, and, and conciseness because it's so fraught and, and because the news cycle moves on so quickly and partly because Russ by his own confession is ADHD as far, that you're trying to do it in a way that appeals to him. And so it's, it's interesting. There are certain jokes I always thought cemented my place that there was, there was one summer where it was just me and him in the, it was early prep for the series and it was just me and him, but it was also my first time. It was like my first full series. So I felt like I still needed to prove myself. And there was a story about a bloke who'd, he had had a heart attack and passed away while having a threesome with his wife, uh, and, uh, his wife's best friend. And so it's a silly story. And one of the jokes I pitched was he died doing what he loved and her friend. And so that's the sort of thing where that just comes like, that's just a normal, like you would, you know, you're doing your, you know, the, the spider diagrams we all draw, but you're doing that at speed, but, and, and sort of almost telepathically where you just be, you're aware we've got five minutes of this. And that was always the thing that you can, that when there's an, when there's trust in the room, you can swing and miss. And it's not a problem that it might be that you get fuck all on a subject. And in some cases, it might even be that we've all written the same joke. And when, when you're first on the show, you always want to go like, all right, I'd written it as well. Ross, honest. But then you realize that Russ, he trusts you. Like it's not a problem that, and so sometimes just depending which order we go around the room, it might be that whoever's said it first. So there was, there was one, again, there was a joke. This was the joke that I felt got me the job was, um, I was writing before I was fully in the writer's room, I was just doing, I was emailing stuff in, uh, and they were stuck on a joke. There was a thing, Ken Livingston was being investigated because it turned out that he'd been paying his wife was an employee and it was unclear whether this was legal or not. And there was a clip from him where he just said, I just had her working in the attic. So it's a funny, weird thing to say, but they couldn't find a one-liner to, to, to come off of, to, to reply to that. And so one of the things I'd pitch was whenever I think I attic for me, I automatically think of Anne Frank, like that's just, and again, that's, it's not massively original thought, but it's, it's like a trigger and it's partly, I think there's an apocryphal story from, from a play about Anne Frank in New York in the eighties, that's so shit that, um, when, uh, when the Nazis arrive at the end of the play, a member of the audience shouts out, she's in the attic. So it's an apocryphal show of his story, but that's one of the reasons I always think of it. So when I hear the word attic, I'd pitched an attic, what's he, what's he, what bi- what business is he running? The Anne Frank experience. And that then was the first joke of that episode. And it felt like, oh, that's basically the joke that got me the job. And then with your standup, how does the writing process differ? It's, um, part, it's changed slightly because most topical things go to Russ. So for, so for a long time, I haven't really been that topical a standup because anything you do, even if I'm trying it in standup, I'm doing it with a view to pitching it for the show or saying to Russ, if you want this, like this fits what you do. And particularly because like when you're on tour with him, he, you don't, you have to avoid crossover as subjects. So mine has become more storytelling just because of that. Uh, and so it's this combination of like knowing you're keeping an eye out for that. Um, but then also like, I prefer, I quite enjoy that sort of anecdotal style. I really like, but then it's also, that's then a framework to hang. You can hang a bit of observational off of it or a few puns or a few one-liners. Um, and again, it's almost like when you're that obsessed with comedy, you sort of know if something is new or if it's, if something's been done a million times. So, uh, there'll be things, you know, like particularly as a parent, like it becomes, it's slightly difficult to avoid writing stuff about being a parent, but it's also that I fit in with that, that demographic that as a fairly obviously middle-aged man, um, an audience that, you know, people my age and the audience quite like hearing those stories. And cause some of the stories are quite sweet. Even the younger people are like, oh, that's a nice story about his kids, but it's often, yeah, I'm always looking for some sort of autobiographical thing to, to base it off of and then, but then seeing where it comes up with just laugh. Yeah. Yeah. And in some cases, like it's, it's always tricky when you, when you can, when you are aware that you're doing a thing that is then becoming done by everyone. So I, for quite a while, because I am, I'm aware I'm an awkward physicality of Mr. Bean type person. So I've often had stuff about me being awkward or being a loser or being neurotic, but now we're in the age where everyone's talking about anxiety. It's like, it's tricky because I don't want to look like I'm lazily jumping on a mental health bandwagon. So it's trying to present my stuff about being anxious, but in a way that doesn't feel like I'm like going, Hey guys, I've seen what you young people are doing. Us old guys can be neurotic too. And what's the worst piece of advice you hear like comedian standups or sketch artists, whatever. What's the worst piece of advice you think they're told? There's a vogue at the moment. And again, there are some people who think that me feeling this way is an indication that I am an old and out, you know, confused past it idiot. There is a vogue now for people thinking that they don't gain anything from watching shows. So you see there'll be people who like they do their set and then they fuck off. And I used to love both from an enjoyment point of view and a learning point of view. You know, I did, I did the one time I was ever on a bill where Malcolm Hardy was MCing. And I had a good gig and Malcolm was lovely afterwards and did it look, shall I book him? Oh yeah, I'll book him. And then Kitson was headlining and it was the first, I know that's not the first time I'd seen him. I'd seen him a couple of times, but it was this amazing thing where I've, I'm getting to see Kitson fuck about up the creek on a night where I've been on the bill. I've been on the same, you know, it's so exciting. And I learned so much, whereas there is this vogue now where people seem to think that that doesn't matter so much. And I'm aware there is a thing that getting back from gigs, there are good reasons why people might need to leave a gig early because they might have to work or it's just not a particularly pleasant area to get back home from or whatever it might be. But there does seem to be some people seem to think that you don't need to watch the other comics anymore. And it's just, it's such a missed opportunity. And counter the end of that, but not the opposite. Obviously, what's the best piece of advice you think you could give to this? That's interesting. I think it's remember to enjoy it. It's probably because now, because it's so crowded and there are lots of, there are so many wrong turns you can take. And there are so many people who are business minded from the outset. So they're looking, you know, it's their first gig and they're already filming it and they're already looking for quotes. And so it ends up becoming, it can become quite mechanical and quite joyless. And it can, so we had that with certainly with the sketch show where you would get, when we were first doing sketches, we were aware we were entering a world of actors who were doing sketches, but didn't really care about comedy. They were doing it to get their, they would showcase in their voices, but here's my Scottish voice, here's my working class voice. And it was like, so they could get advertising the things. And there were brilliant people in that Ormond meeting. They were genuinely brilliant people. But if we were in this world, like we were doing it to have a laugh. We were doing it, I was doing it to emulate the Doug Anthony all-stars. And yet it felt too business-like. And you can see that there are people who are very, very business-like, whereas I love it when you meet someone who's just fucking excited to be there. And they just love jokes. But it is just that thing of remembering, preserving that element of joy. And that, I feel like that leads, not only is that good creatively, but also you just make better friends. Like you end up, like I have worked with a lot of people. And I think one of the things that, one of the reasons I've worked with quite a lot of people is just that I'm quite a sort of benign presence. Like I'm fairly easy to get on with. I'm basically, I'm a good little beta. I'm not an alpha male. And so I get on well enough with people that I've been very lucky to work with some amazing talent, but crucially, I don't make that talent feel threatened. That's very good. And then if you could form like a super comedian, I would have say three of your favourite comics, what would you take from them? And who would you take? That's a really interesting question. It's so tricky because obviously like if you say mates, I think it's fair because you know a lot of people. I absolutely love Pat and Oswald's delivery. Like in terms of like things where I've sort of gone, I would love where I've made a conscious shift. In particular, werewolves and lollipops, that's one of the all-time great specials I think. And his use of language is so beautiful, but the way he modulates his voice, there's sing song bits, there's silly bits, there's bits where he's just making silly noises. And so it's just completely captivating. And he's a pleasure to spend time in his company. So his delivery, probably, you can't really like Malaney's jokes, just because you don't really need to say more than that. And it's tricky because in terms of the perfect comic, the charisma of either Greg or Kitson or David O'Doherty, the charm and ease with which they own the stage. And they are all charismatic in very different ways, but it's just like you just look forward. It's like hanging out with a friend. Like it's magical. S2 Well, thank you so much for coming. That was amazing. CK Thank you. S2 What are the socials? CK So it's at a Steve Hall on Twitter and Instagram. S2 And the tour? CK The tour is like November. So this is a good example of how bad the social media is. S2 It's in your bio as well, isn't it? CK Well, it's in my bio, but my link is Steve Williams' website. Yeah, this is how bad I am at it. To buy the tickets, it's all on Steve Williams' website. S2 I really enjoyed that. That was very, very insightful. Very funny. Thank you so much. For everyone, if you've enjoyed it, please give a five-star on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and the new clips will be posted on Kitten Podcasts. So please share and please go see the tour. If there's a date available near you, we're going to find out the link in the bio. CK Can I advertise everything? S2 I've only got two clips on YouTube, one of which I don't like. The older one, I'm not fond of for reasons I won't bore you with because I could talk for five minutes about that. But the second one, the one that was put up in 2019, something like that, the one where it's pictures of me meeting the Muppets when I was a kid. That's the thing. If people might be interested in seeing the tour, there's a 10-minute clip of me, and it's the story of when I met the Muppets. And that's one of the few things I'm proud of. CK We'll try to figure it out. If you post more reels, we'll post it by the time I figure it out. Thank you so much for coming. S2 Cheers. Thank you. CK I appreciate it. Thank you.