Using Boundaries to Provide Clarity & Enjoy Your Business w/Dr.Chris Pachel

In this episode I have a chat with Dr.Chris Pachel of Animal Behavior Clinic & Instinct Dog Training & Behavior, Portland.

This episode is FILLED with so many juicy relatable nuggets and also just so much laughter and joy that Dr.Pachel tends to always bring to the table. He and I really dig into what setting boundaries within your business can and should look like, how that can help provide more clarity not only to your clientele but also to how YOU would like your business to look 5,10,20 years down the road. 

When we think of trainers, behaviorists, behavior consultants that we see speaking as conferences and the like...we often form this thought that "Clearly, they have it altogether because they are successful, they wear so many hats they're obviously not getting burnt out like I am." When in reality, it's a matter of hitting all the same struggles we do and then, learning how to set up our antecedents better so that we don't keep encountering the same struggles and cycles of burn out. 

Transcript

[00:00:00]  
 

[00:00:07] Hey, welcome back to the Leashed Mind Podcast, mental Health and Dog Training. I'm your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a very fun and very, very. Beneficial conversation with Dr. Chris pk. Dr. Pachel is most known for, his business Animal Behavior Clinic in Portland, Oregon, where he is the owner and lead clinician. 

[00:00:29] He is also the co-owner for Instinct Portland, as well as leadership team for Instinct Dog training. So he's a busy man. He has got a lot of hats. And he is working with a lot of people and has a lot of staff. How does one guy still like have fun and enjoy his business and love showing up for what he does and continues to love what he does well? 

[00:00:55] I mean, he keeps it real and you know, no one's perfect, but he has some [00:01:00] great systems in place that I put air quotes on that because we don't really think of it as systems. It's more of just fine tuning and, and figuring out ways that you can enjoy your business and have these protocols in place so that you do enjoy your business. 

[00:01:15] And it'll make more sense after you listen to the episode. Cuz I probably don't sound like I've. Know what I'm talking about right now. But in this episode we talk about imposter syndrome and boundaries, but not in the usual sense that we talk about them. We come from the angle of how can boundaries provide clarification and more information to us, to clients, to how we wanna operate our businesses. 

[00:01:38] So without divulging too much, I am just gonna let us, you know, Dig into the episode, so get to it. 

[00:01:44] I have Dr. Chris Pachel here with me. Chris, I am so excited to have you on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this for months now. Well, I'm excited to be here, Mandy, thank you so much for reaching out and for making this possible. Thank you. I'm so honored to do [00:02:00] it. 

[00:02:00] Yeah, of course. so to really even just get started, I wanna know, just with growing your business, with growing your career, how has it been trying to just prioritize your mental health within that? I know it's a big question. That's a huge question. Right. Uh, you know, I guess I would start out by saying, you know, kind of looking back, uh, what I do right now was never on my radar as a destination really. 

[00:02:28] Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. That is so interesting. I wanna hear that. Yeah. And so it's been sort of, you know, in some ways I, I would love to look back and go, oh no, I had this elaborate 37 step plan where in, you know, in 2023 on the heels of a pandemic, I'd be open to do business and blah, blah. No, no, none of this is scripted. 

[00:02:47] It's all sort of kind of an evolution of, uh, paraphrasing what I hear from other people, you know, just doing the next right thing, like what makes sense based on the next pattern? Who do I need to reach out to to get sort of that next [00:03:00] evolution? Uh, and, and, and how do we do that, right? So, so part of this is, is the awareness that I didn't, I didn't plan for where I am right now, which also means that some of these struggles come outta left field because I didn't know where I was going. 

[00:03:14] I didn't know what to predict or what was gonna be a struggle, what was going to be easy or what kind of landed somewhere in between. So, I, I, I would say if, you know, if anybody looks at, you know, whether it's my success or I don't even, I don't even like using that word, but sort of what I've accomplished within my career so far. 

[00:03:32] Or some of your growth. Yeah, yeah. The, the growth process. When you look at that, if anybody were to look at that and be like, oh, well, clearly he's got his stuff together, clearly. Oh, no, no. Oh, no, no. Oh, no, no. You know, put it this way, there's a reason why the camera points in this direct, right. If we, if we kinda looked around the, even just this entire room, you'd see a very different picture of what this growth really looks like. 

[00:03:53] So it's, it's, it's a messy process. And, you know, and I guess, you know, over the course of my [00:04:00] career, gosh, I've been a veterinarian now for 21 years. I've been in the behavior space exclusively since 2004. Wow. Right. I, wow. I can't even wrap my head around that right now. Me neither. Truthfully, I, yeah, it, it still catches me off guard, but it's. 

[00:04:15] It is an evolution, and I'll probably use that word a couple more times just because it's, it's, it's a process and the things that I really sort of focused on in the beginning of, you know, getting certified and, you know, learning all the things so that I could show up with, you know, the, the greatest level of expertise possible is still important to me, but it's actually less important than showing up with integrity and empathy and creating some of those safeguards that allow me to keep showing up 21 or, you know, however many years into this process, cuz. 

[00:04:46] In some ways I kind of feel like I'm just getting warmed up and so where are we going next? Right, right, right. I I feel like y you're so right cuz I mean, I've been following you for years. I have been a big fan [00:05:00] for years. Um, specifically the podcast episode you were on of, uh, drinking from the Toilet with Hannah Branigan and you talked about behavioral euthanasia. 

[00:05:10] I remember I reached out to you on my Woof Cultr account and just the way you approached it, and I do wanna talk about that a little bit, but the way you approached that with your clients and the compassion and the empathy you have with that without, and I can tell it seems like you are not putting so much of yourself into it. 

[00:05:28] You're not overexerting yourself, you're still having those boundaries and it's just the way you approach that is just, I am so just. If everyone's watching on YouTube, I am bowing to Chris because it's just No, I'm, it's amazing how you approach it and you're so right that a lot of us forget that it's compassion and empathy is right there, but that's also why there's so much compassion fatigue, and so many of us don't know how to navigate that and bounce back from it. 

[00:05:56] And it's so, so emotionally taxing on [00:06:00] us. And that's why Yeah. You know, we lose so many people that could be great trainers because they tap out. I tapped out after four years. Um, I wanna hear more about you didn't expect it to even be this end goal. What were you expecting? Right. So I, I came into veterinary medicine. 

[00:06:18] I mean, truthfully, uh, looking back to, gosh, when I was, what, 6, 7, 8 years old, I was gonna be a veterinarian. That was always the destination. Like, you know, those, those folks were like, oh, I was gonna be a fireman. I was gonna be a teacher. I was gonna be, no, no, no, I was gonna be a veterinarian. That was the goal. 

[00:06:33] That was the destination. That was the thing. And so when I came through veterinary school, I remember graduating thinking, I'm done with, well, I'm not done with education, but I'm done with, you know, residency. I don't want the hefty part do anything else. The hefty part. Yeah. Like every day's a school day, but I, I want to be done. 

[00:06:49] I'm ready to, I'm ready to go to work, I'm ready to have clients, I'm ready to, to kind of walk with those clients. Yes. Literally from birth to death with the animals that share their homes. And I was so [00:07:00] excited for that as my career path. And it was probably a year and a half or so into that career path when I started doing, uh, a little bit more continuing education in the field of behavior. 

[00:07:11] Always had an interest in it, but I kind of started to do a bit more of a deep dive based on some demands on some things that were coming into the practice. And I remember thinking at that point when I was finishing up this week long intensive course that this is gonna be the beginning of the end of my general practice career. 

[00:07:28] Oh, interesting. What, what kind of ignited that for you? You know, I don't, I don't honestly know. I just remember having this feeling of, wait a minute, you mean I can use the veterinary stuff and do this and sort of marry these different fields together in a way that allows me to act as a almost a translator between the training and the veterinary field seriously. 

[00:07:51] Oh. And sort of bridging that gap and, and, and being able to dive into both of those worlds simultaneously and, and, and learn how to integrate [00:08:00] that information. I was like, Yeah, sign me up. I don't know what, I dunno what's gonna happen next, but that was my, my launch back into residency training, going down the deep dive of, of behavior. 

[00:08:10] And so, whereas I know a lot of folks in the training world sort of landed here almost accidentally when they acquired a dog or an animal that challenged them to step up their game and that was their inroad. That wasn't the case for me at all. I came from a completely different angle with actually very little training background prior to going back into, into specialty. 

[00:08:32] Now, thankfully, I've, you know, changed that over the years with training certifications and incredible, incredible behavior consultants and, and training mentors over these decades. But it's, it, it's been a process, right? And so, and even when I started going down that pathway, I thought I was going to be a clinician. 

[00:08:49] Oh, I was going to be working in the office and I was gonna see patients, and I was gonna see clients and. That was going to be the work that I did from that point forward. All of the [00:09:00] education, the podcast recordings, the, the travel, none of that was ever on my radar as an end point that I was aiming for. 

[00:09:08] That's so isn't that just like, I hate using the word beautiful, but that is quite beautiful to see how it just shifted when you just went all in and were like passionate about it and it just, when did you decide to just say, okay, this is what I'm gonna go into. I wanna really go in on this and expand it and grow with it. 

[00:09:28] I'm just so fascinated by this. Yeah. It's, it's been an evolution, right? So I, when I went back into residency, that would've been 2004. Uh, I actually started a, a traditional residency program through a university with a, a mentor, and it was supposed to be a three year program. Uh, I, I walked away after year one, um, which is something that not everybody knows. 

[00:09:51] Uh, I walked away because it wasn't a good fit and I was really struggling speaking about mental health. That's very healthy, that you noticed that. It was, it [00:10:00] was a dark place. Um, I'm not gonna lie, it was a really, uh, it, it was a dark place and I, I would say that I was as close to self-medicating with prescription medications that I had access to, um, than any other point in my, in my career. 

[00:10:16] It was, it was really rough and I was in this emotional conflict of sort of, I know a residency's gonna be hard, and so maybe this is just the hard that everybody talks about. Oh, so I, I just need, I just need to dig deeper and make it work. And I remember, you know, right around that one year point that, you know, there were a couple of conversations that happened that I. 

[00:10:37] Basically said, you know what, if this is the hard that this takes, then this isn't for me. Or I have to find another way to do this. And I, I walked away from that program and I scrambled a little, uh, and thankfully I had some other connections that I was able to leverage. And within about a two month period of time was back into a new sort of self-created residency program. 

[00:10:58] And I had a business of [00:11:00] my own and I was now a house called Behavior Vet. And there it is, right? But see, that's just, oh, that's so awesome to hear that because I feel like so many times we get stumped and tripped up with, well, this is the system. This is what we have to follow. This is the protocol because no one else has broken that mold yet. 

[00:11:18] But it takes the people noticing that this isn't healthy and this is not a space to grow in, to break the mold and create their own. That's so it's badass that you noticed that and we're just like, I'm just gonna do my own thing and now look at you. So that's just incredible and I could see where you wouldn't see this being the end goal if that's where you, you know, started. 

[00:11:41] And of course I could totally see that. That's ugh, that's so cool though. Well, and it was, I think the piece that sticks with me even all these years later is that I remember having a realization, and don't get me wrong, I learned a crazy amount of really solid information during that year that I was in that first program. 

[00:11:58] And so I, I'm grateful that [00:12:00] that's where I started. I really got my feet underneath me in a way that allowed me, and has allowed me to, to be really confident in what I know and what I don't know over the course of my career. And yet I also sort of had the realization at that point in time that if I continued with that program, I wasn't gonna end that. 

[00:12:17] Section of my education being the clinician that I wanted to be. Just the feedback I was getting was, was smart feedback, but it wasn't feedback that was for me. And I, I had to walk away from that and, and, and do something different. And then in sort of leaning into that and kind of finding a path forward, that was sort of the next, uh, three, three and a half years or so, took me through sort of the end of 2008, uh, got my board certification with the exam and all of the other check boxes checked in 2010. 

[00:12:45] And that's when I moved out here to Portland. And at that point I had been running a house call behavior practice and learning the lessons that go along with stepping in and out of client homes, you know, brand new homes, some safe situations, some really [00:13:00] unsafe situations, and how do you maintain those boundaries and how do you communicate in a way that allows you to stay safe, that keeps your clients safe? 

[00:13:08] And that also allows the client to feel supported and that they can trust you through the process versus the client who says, oh my gosh, he was so worried about putting up baby gates. He was afraid of my dog. I couldn't trust his recommendations. Oh, right. And, and that happened a couple of times where the way in which I communicated to the client where I was trying to express, Hey, your, your, let's say your dog has a bite history. 

[00:13:32] I'm coming into your home. I want to make sure that we are able to get an, you know, an accurate assessment and move forward safely. And their takeaway was, this person is afraid of my dog. I, this isn't the, the, the therapist for us. Right? So, sidebar on that one, but just coming, coming back into, you know, some of these other, these other opportunities, then as, as you know, speaking engagements started to kind of filter in. 

[00:13:54] It just kind of started to pick up steam. And I, I tapped back into some of the lessons that I [00:14:00] learned, uh, truthfully back in undergrad. As, uh, a student at a liberal arts college going down the pathway of music performance. Uh, so I'm a vocalist and a pianist as well. Oh my god. Very, very out of practice these days. 

[00:14:13] But that's, you know, that's another, another generation That's so cool though. Another life. Very cool. Right. And so the lessons you learn as a performer about how to show up, how to be aware of your acoustics, how to engage, how to not create a lot of distracting moments and, and movements that are going to, to take away from what moment you were trying to convey here. 

[00:14:33] Yeah. A all of those lessons that I had sort of put in a little box from undergrad, you're like, let me pull, come through some out of there. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's so, I love when we're able to tap into like past careers, past lives and utilize them. I was a hair stylist for eight years, from like 18 to 24, and then I moved into dog training and never thought I would use that again. 

[00:14:54] And I'm like, wait, I know how to get people to talk. So this might work.[00:15:00] So yeah. I love that. That's so cool. But I, I have so many things I wanna ask about that, but before I lose my train of thought with my lovely ADHD brain, um, you just mentioned, um, you know, from what you know and what you don't know, and I feel like that is a great way to dig into imposter syndrome. 

[00:15:18] And I am curious when you decided to just branch off and do your own thing and step away, how was the imposter syndrome there? Did you have to really fight that or did it just kind of come easy and you leaned into it? Yeah, it did not come easy. And, and, and I think that the first thing that comes to mind is, is, is if I'm thinking about this now as when did I experience imposter syndrome? 

[00:15:42] I would say, how and when do I still experience imposter syndrome? It's ongoing. It's ongoing. Yeah. It's ongoing. You know, and I, I remember thinking about that from, you know, the early days of being like, oh my gosh, so many people know so much more than I do. So many people would do this better. They would be better [00:16:00] suited to the client. 

[00:16:01] Who am I to think that I can be of help under these circumstances? I'm gonna miss stuff. I'm gonna say stuff wrong. I, all of that sort of, you know, self-doubt, second guessing, all of those things was very much a part of that for me and, and continues to be. And I think it, the moment I think that I'm beyond that something will happen. 

[00:16:20] That I'm a beginner again in some aspect of my life, you get humbled at some point. Absolutely. And, and so what I, you know, I sort of, I think I've learned, and I think this, I was probably well into my forties by the time I sort of get started to get comfortable with this, right? Which was, yeah, like we're all a beginner at something. 

[00:16:38] And so how can I show up in a way that hopefully channels curiosity and allows me to see, you know, to be curious as well as, I don't wanna say cautious, cuz that's not right, but I don't wanna overstate what I think I know. Mm. Mm-hmm. I don't want to go in and say, well, you know, I saw this one case this one time, so therefore I'm going [00:17:00] to apply, give you this blanket. 

[00:17:01] Yeah. Oh, I'm not doing anybody any help by that. Versus saying, Hey, you know what, I had, I had this case this one time. I actually don't know if that's gonna work here or not, but let's try it and let's figure out what that, what that looks like in this particular scenario. And so the ability to sort of look at those situations and say, here's what I know, here's what I think. 

[00:17:22] And gosh, here's this whole black box of stuff that I don't think I've got any clue about what's going on. And to recognize that all of those things can exist simultaneously. And if there's a gap in my knowledge, cool. Then my job is not to know those things. My job is to tap into those who do know those things. 

[00:17:40] Yes. And work collaboratively. Right. And that's. You know, I think sometimes, especially when we get into the field of, you know, thinking about veterinary behavior, I think sometimes this, this starts to look a bit like a pyramid through some lenses where we're like, oh, but by the time you get to that level, clearly you should know all the things. 

[00:17:55] No, no. Like somebody who has a background as a trainer, [00:18:00] as a groomer, as a dog walker, as a veterinarian, as a business coach, as a, all of those things. All of those people have things to teach me. Yeah. And so what can I learn and what can I share? Yeah. I, oh my God, you just hit the nail on the head with that. 

[00:18:15] It's, well, I, I feel like a lot of us get into this and, you know, it's something I definitely experienced when I was a trainer of just, I need to have all the answers. Anytime that my clients ask me a question, I need to be prepared. And I would go back to my husband, he's a trainer too, and I'd be like, oh, they asked me this question and I didn't have the answer. 

[00:18:33] And he's like, well, you can just say that. Like, oh, you know what? I don't know right now, but let me, you know, do a little thinking and I'll come back to you on that. And I'm like, you can say that. 

[00:18:45] For some reason I thought I needed to just show up like a book and be like, here you go. Just, I know all the things. Like, that's so unrealistic in setting us up to fail. Yeah. And, and, and yet in reverse, like if I were to go to a professional. I [00:19:00] would have zero expectations of them. Right. The people would know all the answers. 

[00:19:04] Right. And I don't need them to know all the answers just guide me. Absolutely. And like what I, what I want to know or need to know that you don't know, we'll figure it out. But yet somehow we, we put that lens on ourself of Oh my gosh, but if I don't know all the things, I'm a failure. I'm not good enough. 

[00:19:20] I, I don't, I don't belong here. I shouldn't do this. I suck. Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's, it's, it's amazing how different those lenses are when we're looking at someone else and are we treating ourself with the, ourselves, with the same level of compassion and care that we would extend to someone else. 

[00:19:35] And I would argue for myself as well. Now, most of the time we, we don't, it's, it's a different skillset. Absolutely. Well, and I think it always goes back to, you know, we show up for our clients. We wanna have all this information for them. We want to have all this empathy and understanding, but we don't give that to ourselves. 

[00:19:52] Yeah. In our professional life or our personal life, it's always putting the clients and their dogs ahead of us and then we're burnt out. We have [00:20:00] compassion fatigue, we don't wanna do it anymore. And I wonder why. Yeah. You know, and one of the things that comes up as you were saying that Mandy too, is I, I think that there was a point in my career as well, and this was probably, oh, I'd have to go back to my notes to, to know when, somewhere between like oh eight and, and maybe 2012, somewhere in that, I remember having this realization with some really wise people around me that I was sort of calculating my self worth and my contribution based on the outcome of the cases that I was managing. 

[00:20:31] That's bullshit. We can't do that. No. Right? But how many of us do that? Right? Where we're like, oh, that one went really well, therefore I'm good. That one went really poorly, therefore I suck. Yes. And I remember having some cases with, you know, and again, with really wise people around me, uh, that, that they were like, well, wait a minute. 

[00:20:49] Okay, let's actually take a look at that case where quote unquote you sucked. And let's see, can we tease out what are the variables that may have gone well and may not have gone poorly? And what we were able to [00:21:00] differentiate that, and it's an exercise I've done with my team a couple of times since then, just because it's so profound, is to take a look at an average case and look at all of the things that need to come together for that sort of perfect outcome. 

[00:21:12] And, you know, and again, I I'm, we're not gonna go through all of the exercise here, but maybe it's, you know, they've gotta have the financial resources, they've gotta have the dedication, they've gotta have the mindset, they got clinical skills. They have, you know, they have to be working with someone who knows the right answer. 

[00:21:26] We've gotta have a flexible learner. You know, the animal in that case has to be willing to change their behavior. We have to have reinforcers. We can leverage, we, you know, we can run down this entire list. And when you really look at it, you might come up with a hundred different variables, and I would argue probably only 15 or 18 of them are actually underground control. 

[00:21:45] Yes. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. And so if, if 80% or whatever the number is, 60%, even 40%, if that's outside of our control, how could I possibly rate my value based on an outcome that wasn't, it [00:22:00] varies up to me. Yeah, it varies every time. So what, what I love about that exercise and we whiteboard it, you know, we literally go through that exercise periodically to say again, what, what things are under our control, what things aren't. Yes. And how, how, how do we look at that? And, and you know, what it allowed me to do, and again, I don't wanna imply that this is now something that's just in my wheelhouse and I do it perfectly every time because I don't. 

[00:22:22] I don't, I still struggle, I still stumble, but what did I, what I try to come back to is, you know, did I put in an appropriate effort? Did I show up? Did I, to the best of my ability, was I rested? Did I take care of myself well enough to actually show up with some degree of expectation that I could do the job that is within my control? 

[00:22:42] If I didn't, okay, then I have to own that, that I didn't actually show up to do my part of that, of that, you know, system that needed to happen. But if I did, and it, this is where it gets a little bit tricky, right? There's a, there's a difference between sort of saying, these things are outta my control, [00:23:00] therefore I can't assign my, you know, my work or my value based on that outcome. 

[00:23:05] It's really tempting and I went through this phase too. Then I was like, well, If it's outside of my control, then I'm just gonna do what I do. And the heck with all y'all, you're gonna do what you do. And I put up this sort of, it's a wall almost, or a barrier kinda. Exactly. And I was like, well, wait a minute. 

[00:23:19] That's not helpful either, because now I'm actually detaching myself as a safety mechanism. I'm detaching myself from the work so I don't get hurt that I don't have those expectations that get let down. I was like, wait a minute, that, that, that doesn't feel right either. Right. And that's just gonna cause like a little resentment for your field and, and working with clients, cuz then you're just gonna have this like weird feeling in here about it. 

[00:23:46] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and like. It's just, I, there's something to be said of, you know, finding your right clientele and, and catering to the clients that wanna work with you, that, you know, [00:24:00] want to be invested in their dog. Have the finances to do it and have the time, have the bandwidth, whatever it is. But, you know, it's also a matter of just making sure we're checking off our boxes, we're doing our protocol, the way we are taught, and the way we have evolved within our business to do it. 

[00:24:16] And, you know, if it doesn't work, that's okay. It doesn't mean that we're, we suck. It might mean that there is something else going on with the client. It's not always a reflection of us and what we're doing. And if we feel that way, you know, I, oh, I like to sit down and kind of just tick through, okay, well, but I did this. 

[00:24:34] I, I followed this protocol, I did this part. I made sure I touched on this. So it's not about me. Maybe they're perceiving it wrong. Maybe we need to find another way to talk about it and approach it to maybe change that. But knowing that we can't control how everyone takes everything in is a huge step. 

[00:24:53] And I feel like that's something we tend to forget a lot in our industry cuz we just wanna help, help, help, help, help. But we realize we , [00:25:00] may not be the person to do the helping for this individual. Did that make sense? It absolutely did. At least to me. Right. Okay. You know, I, I can take responsibility for my contribution, but I can't take responsibility for all of the things. 

[00:25:14] Right. I just, I just can't do that. And actually, one of the, one of the takeaways, um, that, that sometimes, you know, comes out of this, this conversation is I remember when I was going through that particular stretch and, and had some really challenging client interactions that I was trying to navigate. And, and again, how do I show up in a way that, that I'm invested, but I'm not taking on all of the weight for all of, all of the, the outcomes. 

[00:25:35] And I remember, you know, working with a, a veterinary social worker around that point in time instead of coming up in my own mind, this idea that I'm not gonna work harder, care more, or do more than my clients are willing or able to do in that moment. And it, it sort of allowed me to sort of identify the clients who were ready, who had the skills, who were, were invested, and I could match their energy level. 

[00:25:58] Yeah. And when we have those clients who [00:26:00] are like, they show up 1000%, oh my gosh, it's so energizing and we can do so much. But if for whatever reason, if they can only show up with 10%, meet them there. That's okay. Meet them there. I'm gonna give you 10% and I'll, I'll, I'll let you know what, what this, you know, this, this situation, what it needs from you. 

[00:26:16] Mm-hmm. I'll do my best to try to call that out, but I can't do the other 90% to get us up to a full tank. I can't do that. I can't do that. Um, or I can do it every once in a while. Right. But then I, I gotta tag out. Right. Otherwise, like, you know, continuing to put that level of effort in it, it's just not sustainable. 

[00:26:35] And then that, you know, it's another, another place where we get resentment and burnout. Where I'm doing now, I'm doing all the work and guess what? The outcomes are still gonna be pretty variable because there's still gonna be stuff that's outside our control and ah, gosh, there's so many ways to sort of end up in that burnout situation for sure. 

[00:26:51] Oh yeah. Um, I'm curious are have you had certain situations with certain clients where it's just been a [00:27:00] real toll on your mental health as far as, you know, I, I know all the things that you can encounter as a vet behaviorist. Yeah. And, and, and, and I would say, again, this is not in past tense, right? There are ongoing client interactions that, that I navigate that for whatever reason, maybe it's my communication style just doesn't completely gel with a client, or I find that I'm repeating myself and every single appointment, you know, feels like a Groundhogs Day moment. 

[00:27:26] Or like, how do we, it's just not clicking. Right? I could cut and paste all of your discharge instructions and just repeat them back to you again, cuz you just asked me the same question and, and that could be a source of frustration or if I have the, if I have the capacity in that moment to say, okay, wait a minute. 

[00:27:42] I'm doing the same thing over and over, and it's not allowing us to gain any sort of traction. Let's call that out. And so before I would've tried to do all of that problem solving on my own. And again, I'm gonna be good enough that I can figure this out on my own right. These days. I'm more likely to actually just bring that up as a [00:28:00] discussion point for the clients. 

[00:28:01] Really. You just asked me this question. I, I feel like I've answered that question a couple of times already. And so I'm just curious, are you hoping that the answer's different? Are you not recalling the information? Do you recall it? But it's just not landing like, and you helped me to understand either how I could communicate that a little bit differently, or do we need to come at this question from a different angle, in a way that allows that information to really gel help, help me. 

[00:28:28] Help me to understand what you need from me. So I'll call it out now. And it's amazing how much clarity that tends to bring to those communications. Is there kind of a shift when that happens? Yeah, and, and, and it's, it's, it's not always a positive shift, I'll be honest, you know, but it's, it's a shift. I can see that versus this sort of confusion of like, I don't know what I'm doing. 

[00:28:48] I'm spinning my wheels, you're paying me money, which makes me feel sort of obligated to provide a service. And yet, right, we are not advancing our outcomes here in any way, shape, or form. And [00:29:00] so when, when I do have the ability to call it out in that way, it either moves us closer to a solution or had one client who is like, no, this just isn't working for me either way. 

[00:29:10] But I just keep showing up in hopes that, in hopes that it turns out differently. But I don't know what to do. I'm like, cool, you know, maybe we should actually have you do a session with one of my other doctors. Right. Maybe it might vibe better. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, you know, let, let's figure, let, what other options do we have? 

[00:29:26] Versus just continuing to do the same thing. But again, I think that's the, the, the difference now versus 20 years ago, I would've taken on the weight of that. Well, no, no, no. They reached out to me. Right. You know, I have to help them. Sure. But it doesn't mean I have to be their helper. Right. You can guide them to find, you know, the right person that will be a good, perfect fit for them. 

[00:29:46] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I love this. Oh, so you were mentioning how you talk through all this and in these protocols with your staff, do you make a point of really communicating with your staff [00:30:00] in having firm boundaries within work with clients? And what do those boundaries typically look like? 

[00:30:06] Yeah, we do talk, we do have those conversations, you know, and right now I'm, I'm a part of or leading multiple teams, and I say that because. The way in which I approach this or try to approach this is different depending on which team I'm working with. Oh, okay. So I've got my team at the Animal Behavior Clinic, which is my other, I've got three other doctors on our team. 

[00:30:25] We're adding a fourth one this summer. Uh, but we've got, you know, the other doctors, I've got my technicians, I've got my support staff, my client services coordinators and, and the counselors and, and those roles. So we've got that team. I also have my team at Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland, which is my, my, my team here where we're moving into a new facility here in the next month or so. 

[00:30:44] Uh, and everything that goes along with that. And there, I'm actually a co-leader where I'm one of the co-owners of Instinct Portland. So it's not just about me and my voice and my vision. I have to then say, wait a minute. That's so many hats. Right? And then I'm also on the leadership team for Instinct Inc. 

[00:30:59] Right? [00:31:00] Which is the parent company. We've got a, we've got nine locations, 11 markets across the US right now. So when I have to kind of take off the day-to-day in the trenches hat and say, what do I think about from the, the development of a company standpoint, right? They're different, right? And the way we show up within those conversations is different. 

[00:31:17] So when I'm, when I'm thinking about how do I approach those conversations with one of my teams, and what do those boundaries look like? I would say that we have the conversation about boundaries, but I don't tend to script what those boundaries need to be unless there's a systems based approach that needs to be there consistently across our team. 

[00:31:38] And what I mean by that is, you know, if we say, okay, a client is calling in about scheduling, We have a protocol for that, right? That's gonna get directed to one of the folks who manages our schedule. Right? I'm not gonna touch that. I don't want my technicians necessarily doing that, that that's better handled by others. 

[00:31:55] Right? So there's certain things that are very, very protocol driven. [00:32:00] And yet if I were talking to any of my three doctors and how they were perhaps going to navigate a particularly difficult conversation with a client, we might be having three very different conversations because their communication style is different. 

[00:32:16] Their way of, of, of putting those boundaries into, into practice is going to be different from mine. But we can still have a conversation about what boundaries are, how to maintain them, how to communicate them, how to, how to see boundaries as clarity rather than barriers. Mm-hmm. I like that. And setting everybody up to be successful. 

[00:32:39] Cause you like, and I think about this like an adolescent dog, for example, or a puppy. If we are not consistent in the feedback that we're giving to that learner, the only way for them to, to really sort of ask the question of what the boundary is, is to keep pushing. Pushing and testing. Yeah. They gotta see what works.[00:33:00]  

[00:33:00] Right. And so like, when we remember that like just the basics of not the basics of learning, the same thing is gonna be true for my teams, for my clients. That as long as I know here is the boundary I need to express that I need to make sure that it's been heard and comprehended and then I just need to maintain it. 

[00:33:17] I don't need to double down, I don't need to be aggressive about it. I just need to say this is the boundary and I can hold a line on that. I, I love yeah. That you're Well cuz I feel like a lot of times we think of boundaries as barriers and, and just like this is a wall. You are not crossing it. This is for my mental health. 

[00:33:40] But it does help provide clarity in, in setting that tone with the clients, because it's just helping them get more information of knowing how you operate your business, when you're gonna communicate, how to communicate, how to get ahold of you. Oh, I love that. I, yeah. Boundaries are clarity. Boundaries are clarity. 

[00:33:59] And [00:34:00] it's amazing how many times when, when I was feeling frustrated by a client, um, maybe it's the client who is emailing me at all hours of the night, or they're, they're sending me a daily email with 37 questions or whatever. Just debriefing you every day with, yeah. Right. Like, here's my journal doc, here's, you go. 

[00:34:20] In those cases where, when I find myself sort of like going, oh my God, I can't, I can't do this again. I, I try to remember again, I, this is not something I do consistently, but when I, when I glitch on that, I try to say, okay, wait a minute. Is there a boundary here that I either have not maintained? Or I forgot to express. 

[00:34:42] Yeah. Well it's hard to remember all of 'em too. And so sometimes you gotta go in and be like, oh wait, forgot that one. Totally forgot that one. So that may be the opportunity to, to say, you know, like, and, and, and truly coming back to the client, say, Hey, I just realized I never communicated that. My bad. Hey, you don't have a clue [00:35:00] how work, right. 

[00:35:01] Great. So the best way to send me email updates is every 10 to 14 days, send an update into the office. I will round with my team. We'll get you the answers you're looking for. If it's more than we can handle via email, awesome. They'll get you scheduled in for a recheck. How does that land for you? We can do that at any point within that relationship if we've forgotten or we've let it slip. 

[00:35:23] And again, that gets more that sort of calling it out not as a, a reprimand. Hey, you violated my boundary. Mm, nope. Not helpful. Sometimes people just need the reminder, you know, we're human. Yeah. We forget things a lot of the time. We have a lot absolutely. To keep track of. And I think we forget that, you know, we, we like to remind our clients that we're human, but we seem to forget our clients are human and sometimes they need a prompt as well. 

[00:35:51] Ab So well said. So well said. Thank you. Yeah. And just coming back to that clarity, you know, this, this is how we work and, and maybe even sometimes, [00:36:00] you know, there, there will be clients, you know, you know, coming back to some of those difficult scenarios where this client may have a different way of communicating and we actually don't have a protocol for that. 

[00:36:10] And so we then have to kind of circle back around and say, Hey, This is new information and I actually have to change the script on you a little bit. And I understand that that may not land so, so, so positively for you. And I do apologize for that. And also, this is how we need to, if I'm going to be the one to help you, this is how we need to be able to function. 

[00:36:32] Does that work? Right? I, and ugh, I love that. And that's something I've experienced. I do a lot of, um, branding and logos and stuff like that for dog trainers and whew, the communication in that and revisions. And I always just kind of preface with, look, here are all the different ways you can give me feedback. 

[00:36:52] If you are having a hard time articulating that, let's schedule a meeting. This is when we can schedule meetings. And they're just like, [00:37:00] well, okay. Like I really appreciate that and you just have all these bases covered so that like, I just, I'm giving them insurance. Like, okay, this doesn't work. Okay, how about this? 

[00:37:09] This will work. This will work. Like, just there's some way that I will be able to scoop you up if you are feeling unhelped. That word didn't work, but yes, no, it totally, totally works. I, I love it. And that, and that's the confidence, right? That's the trust that comes through within that working relationship and Yeah. 

[00:37:26] And, and I think sometimes, you know, coming back to something we were talking about earlier, like sometimes I feel like we have to have all of that nailed down in the beginning. Yes. And yet you don't know what that conversation is going to look like. No. You develop it as you go. You learn as you go. 

[00:37:41] Absolutely. It's evolving and growth. And within a trust relationship, within a relationship that, that has a certain degree of safety, we can create vulnerable, vulnerable moments, right. To say, Hey, you know what, this isn't working for me. I need to give you some feedback, but I'm gonna be honest. I'm scratching my head and I don't know how [00:38:00] to do this where I, I don't know how to do it Well. 

[00:38:03] This is gonna get a little awkward. It, it just is and is now a good time to have a really weird conversation. Right. But I maybe, no, I feel like nine times outta 10 people will actually really respect and appreciate that vulnerability in, in you. Being honest with that. I know that, I have encountered that several times with my own clientele and they're just like, Hey, I really appreciate you taking the time to say that. 

[00:38:29] And I'm like, oh my God, cool. Cuz I was overthinking that for like five days and didn't know how to write the email, but it took you 20 minutes to respond and be okay with it. Like, that's usually how it happens, you know? You know. Yeah, yeah. Like, break it down, let's make this as simple as possible. And, and I think that that for me is the, you know, versus, you know, how do I communicate all of the nuance? 

[00:38:53] I'm just gonna call it up by say, I don't know how to do this right. I got some stuff I need to share. I'm not sure. Let's hop on a call. [00:39:00] Yeah. What do, what do we need to do? How do you want to hear it? Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing of, of knowing that it's okay. We don't have to articulate every single thing in text and email because it's so hard to hear the conviction in, in the nuance and things. 

[00:39:14] And there's nothing wrong with being the professional and saying, Hey, you know what? Let's hop on a call. Here's my availability. Because they will appreciate you taking the time to notice that you guys gotta talk through something and, and, you know, nine times outta 10, your clients are gonna respect that and appreciate you taking the time to articulate that to them. 

[00:39:32] And what I love about that too, and especially when, you know, within the, the behavior practice, at least, you know, if, if, if I'm hopping on a call, unless it's a quick little clarity sort of a call, right? It's gonna be a recheck. Right? If we're, if we need to change the plan, I've gotta review the chart, I'm gonna be making some notes afterwards, and so there's going to be a price tag associated with that. 

[00:39:51] And just being very honest and transparent around that allows me to say I can't, coming back to that whole working harder, caring more, doing [00:40:00] more thing. I can't spend three hours diving through 142 pages of chart notes, huh? If there's not some sort of financial compensation on the end of that, which is not making me a money hungry veterinarian, it makes me somebody who actually needs to keep doing this for the next two decades. 

[00:40:17] And I have staff that I need to pay for that. And so I'm not gonna apologize for that. That's simply this is how we do this. I am so excited to answer those questions for you. The way I can do that is within a call. And let's schedule that for Tuesday. If that works for you, awesome. If it doesn't, that's okay too. 

[00:40:32] How would you like to move forward? Yes. And, and giving them that choice and not saying like, no, we can only do a call. This is your only option. Giving them the opt out and just letting them have the choice is huge. Oh my God, Chris, we are just checking so many boxes off right now. I'm love this, this is, ugh. 

[00:40:49] It's so good. This is why I've been looking forward to this conversation. I just knew it was gonna mesh and flow. Um, so I wanna dig in a little more on your [00:41:00] personal boundaries you have with work. So obviously you have tons of staff, so you are able to delegate and task things out and, and hone in on the things that you're good at, which I feel like a lot of us, it takes time to figure that out. 

[00:41:12] Um, so I'm curious. Where you have learned to delegate, task things out and kind of preserve yourself a little bit more for that. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll start out by telling you the things that I think I do well. Oh, yes, please do. And then I'll tell you where I still am an well, I almost said I am a failure. 

[00:41:30] No, no, no. Where I fail to do this thing well. Uh, so on, on the positive side, I've learned to ask over the years having some team members and, and some of it happened out of necessity, right where I needed to step away, whether it's because of a short term illness or something where I was like, I just have to trust that my team. 

[00:41:48] Is as convict, you know, as, as filled with, as, as much conviction to do this right. And well, right as I am. And lo and behold, it turns out probably even better than it would've turned out if I had done [00:42:00] it myself. Right? So I love what that happens, those experiences. Oh my gosh, it's such, ugh, it's amazing. So I've had, I've had those experiences where I've sort of learned to surround myself with people who, who, again, they also don't always know the answers, but I know that they are as committed to the same end goal as I am. 

[00:42:17] Mm-hmm. Um, and if they're not at some point in time that I'm gonna, you know, bless and release and wish them well on the next chapter of their journey, but in the meantime, we're doing these things well, so I can say, Hey, am I the best person to handle this particular task? If I am not the absolute best person to do it, then I don't have any business taking the reins on that one just because I'm the business owner. 

[00:42:36] It's like, no, no, no. Oh my God. You, you, you, you, you, you, and we can do all of those things. So I, I love that piece. And I, well, someone, um, first name Veronica was actually really helpful for me in understanding how to do that within the business model. Uh, I, you know, going back to a place where I was starting to expand, uh, the ABC practice and was starting to get [00:43:00] swallowed alive by just trying to be the one to do all the things. 

[00:43:03] And so she was amazingly helpful in, in really helping me to, to, to figure out what, what pieces, what systems needed to be in place so that, you know, we're a decade later, probably at this point in time, from when I really worked with Veronica the first time, and amazingly helpful. Right? So I love the, I love that. 

[00:43:19] And I think we do, I think we do a really good job in the practice of delegating and handing off responsibility and trying not to double handle tasks and nice. All of those things where I'm not great is ac um, is accurately predicting how long individual tasks are actually going to take. Oh, yeah. I feel that. 

[00:43:40] So I always underestimate, oh my gosh. Always. Always. And so, you know, I, I, I, it's, I would say that's, that's probably the biggest source of ongoing struggle and lack of effective boundaries. I'm well intentioned, but I'm, I'm, I'm genuinely not good at it. And so I commit to things that [00:44:00] I want to do versus committing to the things that I have the capacity to do. 

[00:44:05] And then it becomes that never-ending to-do list that I will never actually catch up on. And unfortunately then I end up with times where I've over promised and I'm underdelivering. Yes, because I just don't have the capacity to do that. And gosh, you know, I, so I, I'm just, this week is my first full week back in the office again after being out of country for about 10 days for a family member's wedding down in carte Hana Columbia. 

[00:44:30] And for the first time in quite a few years actually, I shut down all of my email and basic just shut it off. And I, I took, I took, I took it off of my phone. I like, I was like, I'm on vacation, I'm gonna, and so I came back after being away essentially one full week and there was around 1200 emails or so that all needed to be dealt with in some way, shape or form, whether that was sort of read in file or actually this is something that I need to deal with. 

[00:44:58] And so I got that [00:45:00] 1200 down to about 180 or so that actually needed my attention. Really quick before you even just like went to tackle them. Like, were you just feeling all the like overwhelm? Because I feel like seeing that number, it's like, oh, I'm sweaty and clammy. It was a lot. Um, it was a lot. And, and I knew it was gonna be a lot and I basically told myself before I opened up the inbox, um, that's what I was gonna ask. 

[00:45:25] Yeah. Yeah. It was sort of like, you know what, let's just count this back from 10. Let's rip off the bandaid. It is what it is. And if I, I, I found myself actually channeling some of the things that I would often tell my clients of dogs with separation anxiety, where if they had to leave the dog home alone and there was a possibility that they were gonna walk in, the dog may have urinated or may have destroyed something before you put the key in the lock, roll your shoulders, crack your neck. 

[00:45:49] Yeah. Give a shake off. Oh, I love that. Yeah. What you need to do so you can walk in as neutral as possible because it is what it is. Right. Adding additional stress to that, [00:46:00] it, it's not gonna make that 1200 number magically go to four. No. Right. Yeah. It is what it is. I, and, you know, and that's where a lot of the anxiety and the stress comes from. 

[00:46:08] At least if, for me, it's when I, I want something different than what the reality that's facing me actually is. It's not gonna make it any easier though. It doesn't, it, no. I mean, it's so hard to remember that. But, but that was the strategy for me was like, you know what? It is what it is. I'll do my best. 

[00:46:27] And you know, I had my out of office messaging, right. And then I had, so people knew exactly like, I'm coming back on Tuesday and I'll do the best I can to get through this as efficient, efficiently as possible. And then I changed my out of office for a day or so. I am back, I am here. I'm playing catch up. 

[00:46:42] I'm in a little bit of overwhelm right now, so I'll get to you. I promise. We'll, we'll get there. But you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's part of that process of, of, you know, uh, again, sort of the delegation piece. What can I pass off to someone else? Truly what do I need to handle? And, and, [00:47:00] and can I accurately, accurately organize my life in such a way that allows me to do that within a reasonable number of work hours? 

[00:47:07] That's not all consuming, right? Um, or you're emailing all day. Absolutely. Oh, with so many emails. So many emails. So I, I, I wouldn't say that I'm the model that anybody should look to for how to actually create a 30 hour work week or a 36 hour work week. Uh, if you want to do a lot in a 70 hour work week, I'm probably a guy you can look to. 

[00:47:29] But you know what, ah, I'm still a work in progress on that one. But that's okay. And you acknowledge that and that's huge. And it, you still have tons of playtime and you prioritize yourself. You know it. Anyone that is Facebook friends with you will see that. I'm like, Liam, he's going for a run with his partner. 

[00:47:48] He just sold his rv. He just went to Columbia. He just went here like, and it was just, it's so cool to see that because it's like, I, I see you prioritizing your mental [00:48:00] health. I see you having boundaries with your work. I see you having your time to recharge and recoup after work. And it's like, hell yeah. 

[00:48:08] Yeah. Like, that's what people should be thinking of when, you know, how do you want your business to look? Do you want to be at your desk all day every day, you know, six, seven days a week from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM No. And if you do that, you are not going to have the downtime you want to play. And I am someone who will get in that cycle of working nonstop, won't take a vacation, and then, you know, I wonder why I'm burnt out at snapping at my poor husband and, you know, wanting to rip his head off. 

[00:48:36] So, but I, I, it's, the play is so much more important and I, I have learned so much of that from Veronica. She gets mentioned in these episodes so much, I swear. But, but you know, I, I am related to someone who takes play so seriously. And anytime I am around her, like, it's like, no, we are playing, we are, we are having our fun and we are having our [00:49:00] play time. 

[00:49:00] If we wanna talk about work, let's set aside a day to talk about work. And I'm like, Damn, she's really serious, even though like her whole business is about work. Like what the hell? Right. Right. It's, and I love having people in my life who ha, who remind me of someone who's, yes, we need that prompt, those important things. 

[00:49:16] Absolutely. You know, and I think in, in my household, Robert and I have very different styles where he tends to be more of a, you know, work 12 hours, but then take three days off, like Right. That's nice. Get it all done, and then take the time off. Whereas I tend to be, you know, I might start work on an average day. 

[00:49:33] I'm at my, at my, my computer by probably five 15 or so in the morning and Right. Yeah. So, so it's like, I, I wake up, I roll outta bed, I grab a cup of coffee and I'm usually on my laptop and like, that's what I'm, and yet I do that for like two hours and then I'm off to the gym and I've got yoga. Okay. See, and I've got some, some time you chunk it out. 

[00:49:51] Absolutely. And so I might, you know, I might have a 15 hour day. But not really. Right. And you had your windows that's like, [00:50:00] that's Yes. Oh my God. I've never explained it that way, but that is exactly how my husband and I are, because he will just chunk it out and be like, let's get it done. Hunkered down, put my head in the sand, and then we'll have a couple days off and I'm like, you know, I wanna read these emails, remove some anxiety. 

[00:50:14] Okay, I'm gonna go hike the dog, drink my coffee, read a book. All right. It's like 8:00 AM Let me come back to this. Yes. Do a couple things for a couple hours, take another break. And I think that helps me enjoy work more and not hate it so much. And I actually want to go back to it cuz I get those little breaks. 

[00:50:31] Yeah. And I know not everyone has that wiggle room, but when you're able to make your business your own and create it in that way, it is so helpful, so beneficial to your mental health because you're finding ways to prioritize yourself. Yes. And what I love about that is, you know, just like, just in the way, you know, that Robert and I function, if I tried to adopt his strategy, I would burn out in like in four days, right? 

[00:50:55] And the, and the reverse is also true, right? That if he just trying to sort of tap in and out of [00:51:00] work and a little bit, take a break little bit, take a break, he'd be like, oh my, oh my God, I'm, I'm, I'm now working for 15 hours. No, no, I can't do that. And so, you know, I, I think what I, what I love, you know, about that sort of conversation is that my strategy doesn't have to be your strategy. 

[00:51:14] Oh, it's taken me years to figure that out and, you know, nine years of a relationship to figure out, like, we're not the exact same. Like what? Robert and I have been together 23 years now and oh my, my gosh. It's, it's still a work in progress, right? Let's, like, is this one of those times where, you know, you're mad about this one thing but it's showing up in this other way, like Right. 

[00:51:37] Talk it out buddy. Let's talk it out. But that's, so it's just, it's important to notice where like our brain doesn't operate the same as everyone else's. No one is gonna be able to operate the exact same way. And I feel like again, like this is how it has been in the dog training industry for however long we see, you [00:52:00] know, other people that are on platforms and talking at conferences and they're doing it this way. 

[00:52:05] Therefore, I guess we should do it that way because that's the only way we're seeing it done. But that's not true. And I'm talking to a lot of younger trainers that are changing it and changing their business to work for them. And I'm just like, Scooping my jaw off the ground because I'm so proud to see those changes happen. 

[00:52:22] And I know that that ripple effect is gonna slowly happen. And, and I love the way you say that, and especially, you know, if we're looking at someone who is, you know, may, maybe they're, they're seeing clients five days a week and they're sort of, you know, the, the proverbial sort of in the trenches, right? 

[00:52:37] Right. And they're seeing someone on the lecture stage or someone who's just crushing it on social media and there's that sense of, yeah, I should do that too, if I'm gonna be successful. That's what success looks like. It's just different. It's not better, it's not worse, it's just different. It's a different reinforcer, it's a different way of expression, it's a different ripple effect. 

[00:52:57] Not better, not worse, just [00:53:00] different. And so, you know, with that being said, if that's the ripple you want, go for it. What are you doing to achieve it? Go for it. Right. But don't automatically try not to automatically assume that just because someone is finding success or visibility or profitability or whatever the measure happens to be, that therefore that needs to be your metric that you're, that you're judging yourself on. 

[00:53:21] It just doesn't, it's not, it's not a healthy way to go about it or that that's the only way to do it. You know, I mean, which the global pandemic, we had that one way of training and then everybody went virtual. No one was virtual before and now everyone is, people are starting their businesses just being virtual. 

[00:53:38] So if that can happen, I imagine most of us can start businesses the way we wanna start them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh God, absolutely. There's so many ways to, so many ways to do it, and I think, you know, sometimes it's, it's, you know, it's, it's a leap of faith. It's, it's courage, but it's also, I, I think for me it's surrounding yourself with people who actually do see things differently than you do that can act as a sounding [00:54:00] board. 

[00:54:00] And you're like, Hey, if I want to, if I wanna get on this pathway, can you help me to get some clarity around, right. What the heck am I doing here? Or, Hey, you did it this way, I'm thinking of doing it this way. What do you think? Do you think that that could grow that way? And yeah, the right people around you will help build that. 

[00:54:17] And the wrong people that talk you out of it, just get 'em outta here. Yeah. Yeah. They, they may be helpful for some people, but they're not helpful for you right now, and that's okay. Right. You know, it's, and, and that's, you know, I've got people of, you know, that just sort of fill that role within my, my life and in some aspects of my life. 

[00:54:32] They're my go-to, but I would never in a million years ask them for business advice. Yes. Oh my God, yes. No, no. There's a terrible idea. Great person. Terrible idea. I know. I tell my friends, I'm like, come to me for like business talk, not like personal life talk, like personal life. It's like, I'm good, but like, I'm not gonna give you advice on that. 

[00:54:55] Not my circus, not my monkeys. Right? Like, I'm like, Nope, nope. That's, that's, I'm not gonna [00:55:00] do that. So yeah, no knowing who to go to and when, and you know, and there's so many just incredible leaders out there in the field when it comes to sort of personal development and, and, you know, coaching people on How do you, how do you not only seek out those people who can give you feedback that's gonna be meaningful, but how do you actually sort of, kind of tune out the voices that, that you wouldn't have asked for an opinion in the first place? 

[00:55:22] You know, how do you tune that out? Not because you've put up such a wall that you're repelling all of that, but just say, yeah, that's not feedback that I need to listen to right now. Thank you. Thank you for offering what you thought was going to be helpful and I'm good. You know, h h how do you do that? 

[00:55:36] Right? What does that look like without being disrespectful or dismissive and gossip. Yeah. How, how do you do, how do you do that? So yeah, that's minute. Oh, I just, you're like, I walked into that. Yeah, I totally did. That was not my intention. Oops. Uh, no, it's, um, you know, I, I think it's, um, it, it depends on which, what role I'm filling within that moment. 

[00:55:58] Okay. You know, and there's so many people [00:56:00] out there, you know, whether it's family or friends or business colleagues who truly want to be helpful. And unfortunately they offer unsolicited feedback. And so they're jumping in with solutions before you asked for help. Right. Right. And so one of the things that I, I try to do in those moments is that if somebody's offering me a solution, and if my brain says, yeah, but, or, no, no, no, I, and I, I kind of go by the defensive way. 

[00:56:26] I try, try to pause and say, Hey, that's great feedback. Uh, I, I appreciate you sharing what's worked for you. And then just change the subject. Yes, acknowledging the gift of that feedback, but not feeling like I need to embrace it. I don't need to adopt it. I don't need to even respond to it. I can simply say, thank you for offering your perspective on my situation. 

[00:56:47] I'm grateful that you took the time to do that. Awesome. Do you wanna grab a, do you wanna grab a coffee? And then we just change the subject and do something else? Right. I, I feel like that's so similar to, you know, social media and the comments. You know, people get negative comments on [00:57:00] social media and it's. 

[00:57:01] S very easy to, and I speak from firsthand. Um, it's very easy to be reactive and respond from emotion, um, and past experiences and past encounters. But having that moment of pause and like, okay, this isn't about me, and they're just trying to be helpful or, or trying to give more information that was not prompted, um, and, and relate on a level that like we're not even asking for. 

[00:57:29] And so, yeah, that's, I think that's just so healthy to. And it takes time to develop that pause and, and have that, you know, I'm going on 33 and it has taken me years to not be reactive and mean and bless my husband for putting up with me learning to do that and not be reactive. It's hard. It's so hard. I remember having a conversation with my therapist a while back, and I, I was early on in this particular aspect of some of the work that I was doing, and she brilliant, brilliant [00:58:00] therapist. 

[00:58:00] She was really good at noticing the changes in my body language. Oh. And ra like, just like we do all the time. Minimal with dogs. Right, right. But, and, but rather than pointing it out to me, she would simply ask me to pause. So we had a dialogue around that and she said, no quick body scan. What feels different in this moment? 

[00:58:19] Yes. And so for me, I started to recognize if I, if I, if I tense up my, my lips, That's one of my first triggers. It's like, ooh, ooh, ooh, emergency break. Okay. Uh, I, I, I need space. I need time. I, I need, I need a window. Yes. What is that gonna look like? Right. So, so, you know, how, how do we do that? How do we start to develop those pauses in a ways that allows us to respond? 

[00:58:46] You know, again, when we lead to the unsolicited feedback piece, even just to acknowledge, thanks for taking the time to weigh in on this. I, I, you're, you must be crazy busy. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate you and move on. And the, the reverse is also true, which I'm [00:59:00] also not consistently good at, and that is before I offer my opinion, ask whether or not my opinion is desired. 

[00:59:07] Right. I have some thoughts about your situation. Would now be a good time to share? do you want feedback or do you just want me to listen? Yes. Oh my God, that's so huge, so huge. And yet that is a skill that we all really need to learn. That is something I encounter with, with friends all the time, and they'll vent to me. 

[00:59:26] And I'm like, okay, should I give advice? And then I'm like, wait, okay, so what do you need in this moment? Do you need me to listen? Do you want me to give advice? And then they'll be like, oh, well I actually really appreciate you asking that. And then it just changes the whole dynamic. It's, yeah. Ugh. And I think that comes back to the whole, you know, having the empathy and the compassion and clarity. 

[00:59:49] I, I totally agree. And it's, there's so many places where we all get tripped up. And, and again, we see this in the dogs that we work with all the time, right? They're trigger stacked. There's all of those things going on. And the [01:00:00] more they're navigating in terms of stress, The harder it is for them to access those skills, even when they have fluency in those skills, when they're below threshold, those skills become less and less accessible. 

[01:00:12] And I think, you know, there's so many lessons we can learn there, you know, about ourselves, that if we're recognizing that we're going into reactive mode, our fuses short, we're responding in ways that are maybe not the way we would like to show up, how can we change those antecedent conditions? How can we reset? 

[01:00:29] What would it look like to decompress? What do we need? Maybe it's a hug. Maybe it's, you know, a, a drink of water, a good cry, five seconds of silence, a good cry. All of those things have value, right? At different points in time. Oh God, yeah. No, you're so right. And. I, I'd like to touch on before I let you get going. 

[01:00:48] It, it's just, I, I'm really curious how you've worked so hard to have this boundary with your work and your mental health and, and be able to have this fun time because you [01:01:00] are such a busy, busy, busy dude. And I just, I'm so curious how you make it all work in such a, you know, kind of an question, but really like, how do you find that balance and, and enjoyment and love what you do? 

[01:01:15] Still be honest, honest answer. I don't know. Okay. I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I don't know. It's, it's something that I, I'm, I'm incredibly grateful for it. I love that I've, I've been fortunate enough to. To not only sort of find myself in situations that, that I had the ability to make choices that allowed me to sort of continue to lean into things that fed me rather than depleted me. 

[01:01:39] Um, and, and I also, I, I, I credit to some degree, you know, I credit my, my parents for helping me to cultivate a really strong work ethic. And, and also recognizing, and this is where I kind of have to, to go both sides here, recognizing that my, well, how should I put this? Um, I've been on somebody's payroll since I was 11. 

[01:01:58] Uh, like it, you know, [01:02:00] legitimately that that is the case. And so I ha I, I've been working forever and what I have to remember, and I have people in my life now who remind me, that's not always the healthiest model to follow. Yeah. So in some ways, like I, I'm able to do a lot of things because that's what I do. 

[01:02:16] Right. I, I've got really good, um, models in my life who are doers of things, and so I, I, I grew up that way. Uh, it's, but it's also taken me a lot of work to recognize that being the doer of things without taking time is, is, is not healthy. Um, I, I'm aware that there's a lot of, without going in a, a, a health related direction, too far down this pathway, there's a lot of heart disease in my family. 

[01:02:42] Um, my dad had his first heart attack at 43. Um, I'm already older than he was when he had his first heart attack, and he's still with us, uh, which is amazing. He's now in his seventies. Never would've thought that was the case at the, but I'm reminded, right? Like if I were to just do, do, do, do, do, and without being [01:03:00] conscious of my resting heart rate, without checking my heart rate variability, without, uh, you know, knowing those things. 

[01:03:07] I would probably put myself in an early grave, and that's not what I want my life right, to be like. So I, I, I kind of have to, um, so I don't know if there's an answer in there somewhere, but it's, I, I'm grateful that I do, I do get to do what I love every single day. I am working on not taking on more than I can actually accomplish, but I'm grateful that everything on my list is something that I've agreed to because I believe in it. 

[01:03:31] I love that everything on your list is something you've agreed to, which is hard in itself because it's difficult to say no to things when we are doers and just wanna get things done, and let's just keep it going. But learning to say no is self-care. Yeah, because talk to boundaries. Yeah. And it's not even, it, no. 

[01:03:50] Doesn't need to be a wall. It's clarification of I don't have the spoons and I'm not gonna take on more than I'm capable of because I know how I end up when I do that. [01:04:00] And some of us, it takes, you know, I, I, I hate this view that burnout is necessarily a bad thing because it, it shows us where we are lacking in taking care of ourselves. 

[01:04:12] And I have burnt out so many times in the last several years to the point where I was working, you know, maybe one workday and then depressed the rest of the week because I wasn't, I couldn't do it. I, I couldn't get to that point cuz I wasn't taking care of myself. And so just being able to notice that and be like, okay, I need to start saying no. 

[01:04:32] Saying no to the things that aren't going to actually help me. Saying yes to the things that fill me up, make me feel good about what I do, utilize my skill in the best way possible. That's just gonna make you feel better over time. And then I feel like eventually we find those ways to, I don't wanna say prevent burnout cause it's never easy to prevent, but I think it helps us learn how to bounce back from it, recognize it earlier the next time around. 

[01:04:57] Like, yes, wait a minute. I, I'm getting that feeling. [01:05:00] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, and I think it's an important thing too. And, and again, it's a learning process and the tells that I have now at this stage in my life, they look different than they did a decade ago. Of course, it feels different in my body. It feels different in terms of the things that I'm being asked to do. 

[01:05:16] And so, again, none of this is past tense. None of this is, oh, now I know what to do. Now I'm doing the best I can with the tools I've got available to me right now. And sometimes it's good enough and sometimes it's not. And both of those are okay. Yes. I, I love that you touch on, it's, it's current. It's present. 

[01:05:33] It's not past tense because, you know, growth isn't linear. Progress isn't linear success, it's not linear. It is all a wave. And we are constantly riding it and figuring it out. And if you see people who you think are successful, know that we are all working hard and struggling and hitting these same roadblocks that you guys are, it's just, we've hit the roadblocks enough times where we've learned, okay, this is happening. 

[01:05:59] I'm [01:06:00] noticing this. How do I take care of myself in this situation? What can I do? What can I move around? And how am I gonna bounce back and come back stronger? And who can I lean on until I'm ready to tap this again? Yes, yes. Delegating and being able to lean on others for support, whether that be from, you know, Facebook group, mentorship, business coach, whatever it may be. 

[01:06:19] And I think, you know, our industry has been so isolating for so many years and we're just now learning that we can lean on each other and that not everyone is competition. Yes. Yeah. Uh, could not agree with that more. It's one of the things I love so much about with the, the teams that I'm a part of is that, you know, especially thinking about my team at abc, even though I sort of take on a lot of the responsibility as the sole owner of the company, all I have to do is draft an email to the team that says, I need a day. 

[01:06:46] I, you know, within four minutes I've gotta reply back from every member on the team. Take your time. We got you. I'm like, what? That has to feel so good. It's it's amazing. It's amazing. And, and, and, and they have me because they know I have them. Great. You guys have that [01:07:00] system. Yeah, it's in there. Ugh. Well this has just been such a little nugget of mental health, joy. 

[01:07:06] I love it. Oh, you are so awesome to talk to on this topic. Um, so I really appreciate you coming on Really quick. Do you have any advice for anyone that is looking to become a vet behaviorist, working towards it, someone that is working towards becoming a trainer? Any little nuggets of wisdom you have to give them? 

[01:07:26] Yeah, I think, you know, there, there's so many different ways to be helpful in the field of animal behavior. And, and I, and I think for me, and this again, this comes back to, you know, whether you're working as a trainer, as you know, a trainer assistant, a behavior consultant, a veterinarian, a veterinary behaviorist, we can all work together. 

[01:07:44] So number one, it's also not a competition. It's not a stratification. Nobody's, in my opinion, better or worse, We just have different tools in our toolbox. And so for me, I really try to, if, if I'm sort of reflecting that back to someone, I try to figure out, not necessarily what do you want to do, but what [01:08:00] tools do you want to have in your toolbox? 

[01:08:02] If you want to be able to prescribe and really understand medical issues cool than veterinary, veterinary behavior, that may be your path. If you're like, no, no, no, I'd, i'd, I'd rather farm that out to someone else. But I really want to focus on, you know, troubleshooting and problem solving behavior mod plans. 

[01:08:20] Cool than going down the path of being a behavior consultant is probably, you know, your, your route forward, but maybe that's not your path either. So trying to gain clarity around as best you can, what tools do you want to have at your disposal? And that's gonna set, set that process in motion. And quite honestly, find somebody who's already doing. 

[01:08:40] What you want to do and ask 'em about what their life looks like because it may not be the picture you thought it was. Right. And wouldn't it be great to find that out before you spend a lot of time and effort going down that pathway to get there and go, oh crap. Uh, now what? Yeah. So ask questions. I love that. 

[01:08:58] I love, um, that you touch [01:09:00] on asking people who are already in it, because I feel like a lot of times we don't feel like we can, but nine times outta 10, like they're willing to share and help others grow and, and share that insight. So yeah, ask, ask people, ask and, and coming back to that community, right? 

[01:09:17] We're, we're all in this in some way, shape or form. And if somebody is successful doing what they're doing, they probably want to share that, right? There's, there's at least an ego in there that we might be able to tap into like, Hey, how did you get so good at what you do? People are gonna talk about it, right? 

[01:09:34] So, Gather the information as you can. Awesome. Well, I think this is a great way to end the episode. Thank you so, so much for coming on and gracing me with your presence. I really hope that I can have you on for another episode cuz I'm sure we can go onto a whole other tangent. I am reasonably confident that that will not be a problem, so content and scheduling. 

[01:09:55] So yeah, let me know when that works. It's been an absolute pleasure to spend some time with you today, Mandy. [01:10:00] And if you found this podcast helpful, you like what we're doing here at the leash mind, leave a comment, subscribe, like tag us on social media, just give us a little r plus and we'll be back with another episode.