Being Mindful with How You Navigate Your Business w/Claire Anderson

In this episode I have a really wonderful chat with Claire Anderson CPDT-KA, FDM, SAPT, FFCP of Mutt Sense regarding being more mindful when navigating not only running our business, but also in how we show up for our clients, their dogs, our animals and most importantly....ourselves.

We discuss growth in our careers, learning from less than ideal situations with business and clientele, figuring out what exactly our needs are in order to remember to meet them, creating our businesses in a way that helps set us up in the best way possible and finding other ways to be more mindful - not just within work! 
---
Where you can find Claire:
@muttsense on instagram and tiktok
--
Link to Ruff Relationships  on Facebook 

If you are new to The Leashed Mind Podcast, Mental Health & Dog Training then please don't forget to like, follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
@theleashedmind on Instagram
@theleashedmind.pod on Facebook
@theleashedmind on YouTube

Support the show & help us continue making great content for listeners everywhere - cancel anytime, no commitment!

Think you might have some great advice, experience or story you'd like to share with our audience? Head on over to https://www.theleashedmind.com/ and scroll down to our guest application!

Transcript

[00:00:07] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Leashed Mind Podcast, mental Health and Dog Training. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a lovely conversation with Claire Anderson from Mutt Sense Dog Training. Claire and I, oh, we talk about all things, you know, mindfulness and enjoying what we're doing and how to approach certain situations with clients and being mindful in how we. 

[00:00:34] Interact with our clients, how we interact with ourselves, and how we approach our business. Since this is a longer episode, I am just gonna zip it and get into the episode with you. 

[00:00:43] I have Claire Anderson here with Mutt Sense Dog Training. Claire, thank you so much for coming on. I am so excited to dive into this with you. We talked a little bit before and now I'm even more jazzed to go into this with you. Yay. Thanks for having me. So, I wanna know a little bit, just, you [00:01:00] know, so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more. 

[00:01:02] So tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you got started yeah, yeah. I don't, I, to be honest, um, I could say this totally, honestly, I don't think there was ever any other option. Um, I started with the ideas of other options, but I was always gonna work with dogs. You know, I was sort of running away from it for a while. 

[00:01:21] I, you know, I was, I was a yoga teacher for a while. I also, um, worked in film for a while, but the dogs, they just kept pulling me back in. So I finally said, okay. Um, so anyway, yeah. Professionally, um, I, I would say my professional career started about 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, I moved to Los Angeles from, um, the Midwest. 

[00:01:43] And, um, I had a lot of dog experience, but not specific training experience. So I had worked in and managed a large volume dog daycare. Um, prior to that I also, which was Yeah. Was fast growing too. There's a lot of stories there. Um, I was al I also worked in a vet clinic. [00:02:00] I worked with rescues and, and shelters. 

[00:02:02] So I had a ton of dog experience, but no, uh, specific, uh, training experience yet. So I was really lucky. You know, you really, uh, If you're open to opportunities, they come and I, you know, I moved to LA thinking, well, I'm gonna put work in film probably, but you gotta pay the bills in the meantime. 

[00:02:20] And I was like, what experience? Well, my experience is with dogs, so I was looking for dog jobs and um, Tully's training, which is kind of a big deal now. And they adjust. They were just starting out. Um, I, uh, you know, they had a job posting, so I reached out. I had, in my opinion, the worst interview ever, like a hands-on interview where it was like, okay, show us how to train this dog. 

[00:02:40] And I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing at all, but that's nervewracking. I know. So at a certain point, the interview, I just was like, I don't know what I'm doing, you guys. And I was messed with them and apparently they liked that. So they, Mary took me on and she mentored me, which was lovely. And, you know, I was learning and it was so exciting, um, and [00:03:00] humbling and scary and all the things, but I loved it. 

[00:03:02] It was right for me. I'm a people person. I'm a dog person. It was good. Um, so really almost right away I was like, not right away, but within like six months I was full-time working and, you know, living and breathing, dog training. I had a full client load and that maintained for five years, um Oh wow. In LA. 

[00:03:19] And then, um, For a lot of reasons I needed to leave LA so I went to Seattle and, um, continued to work with, with Tully's training, um, as an independent contractor. But, um, it's really lovely to be a part of that company and Right. You know, you get a lot of support and everything. Um, so I, I still work with them today actually, um, in sort of a different capacity. 

[00:03:37] But, um, so then I was in Seattle working and training. and recently I just moved to the North Woods and I'm working with the shelter here and, and taking on clients here. Wow. That is quite a journey just to like come back full circle. I love when that happens, but, Ooh, getting involved in the daycare scene and the rescue scene and just all of that is [00:04:00] just, when you were saying that, I'm like, oh, that's emotionally taxing. 

[00:04:02] That's emotionally taxing. Like those are just so many layers and. You know, we can get into it later, but volunteering and shelter work is a whole other. That is one beast I will never touch because I know how much it takes from you emotionally, mentally, physically. So I. The fact that you still wanted to work with dogs after that really shows how much you love it and, and how much you really wanna help others and their dogs with that. 

[00:04:28] Cause that is, that is a journey and that is very stressful. Yeah. Well, on that piece actually. I mean, age comes into play there I was in my early twenties. I was not, I, I didn't, I think at this point I'm very careful with how much of that type, type of work I do, because I know how hard it is. Let me know. 

[00:04:45] I didn't know any Oh, in your twenties, I never know. No. You're just like, I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna take it all in, give it to me. And then you're like, why am I overwhelmed at 30 and all I have all this emotional baggage. Yeah. Yeah. So anyone that's 20, don't do that.[00:05:00] Careful. Be careful. so I'm curious. 

[00:05:02] before we get into it, more your journey, just experiencing this with training and, and shelters and everything, your background with yoga, did that ever come into play in, in helping you? I mean, you were young, so who knows that we really cared about our mental health back then. But did you notice that you used any of those techniques when you were feeling overwhelmed, stressed at all? 

[00:05:21] Yes. Yes, absolutely. Moving my body, um, is, is is for me a huge stress relief and I can get really tensely, like Yeah. And literally forget to move, especially if I'm hyper-focusing on something. And that's the, that's the neurodivergency coming into play. But yes, I will in forget to move for hours, um, yeah. 

[00:05:43] And need to, like, I need to, whatever it is. And so yoga as movement, um, I knew helped me, but there's another piece, right? Because dog training and, um, behavior work is, is so much more about the people. Mm-hmm. Because if, if [00:06:00] these, if, if we are to hope that this dog lives a better life, We need to know that the people are really engaged and care about what I'm saying. 

[00:06:08] So, so learning to speak to people, um, as a yoga instructor actually really helped. Oh, interesting. In my career too. Why is that just like from coming from like the background of un beam or understanding and empathetic or, yeah. Oh, and literally just talking to a crowd of people in a calm voice and keeping the environment calm and peaceful and positive. 

[00:06:29] Oh my God, I love that. Your clients must love you. You must be so like, soothing and reassuring to them. That is like, I hope so. Yes. cause you know, like sometimes people who are instructing and teaching, they just go, you know, run of the mill, read through their book, go through their steps, and they don't really think of how it's getting delivered. 

[00:06:48] And sometimes tone really affects people. I, I know I am very sensitive, uh, when people change tone. So I could see that really having an effect with, uh, training for sure. Right. Right. Um, so [00:07:00] I, I really wanna lean into just moving our bodies more and talking about that because before you and I hit record, we were just commiserating over healing from both of our surgeries. 

[00:07:11] You had back surgery, I had foot surgery. And how my mental health has, I mean, quite honestly, it's, it's tanked in the last, I'm coming up on four weeks post-op now, and, um, probably in the last two weeks I have noticed I'm more depressed. I'm not as motivated, feeling very down on myself, can't get productive. 

[00:07:29] And I've been telling my husband like, I don't know why this is going on. Like, I'm on better medication. I'm, I'm doing this. The sunshine is out more, but I'm not able to move my body. And it's so infuriating as someone who is neuro divergent and, and seeks body movement to regulate myself and, and regulate my emotions and my mental state. 

[00:07:49] Not being able to do that has really affected me. So I wanna talk more about how you've noticed those are connected, um, with, with work stress and with [00:08:00] navigating, um, life with a reactive dog and, and where you noticed that that movement has helped process things better and not hold on to that negative energy. 

[00:08:11] Does that make sense? Yeah, completely long question. Yeah. Well, as we were talking about kind of before we started recording, we develop coping skills and I think for so many of them, their movement, right? I mean, what is the number one advice you hear is is shake it off, go take a walk, shake it off. Yeah, go take a walk, right? 

[00:08:29] Uh, when you can't do those things, you know, and you don't know any other way, it is so hard. So, yeah, prior to my injury, which, you know, really my injury was developing, Three years ago, up until till now. But um, prior to that I was very flexible and open and movie and, you know, I loved, like I said, yoga, uh, taking my dogs on hikes, adventures all the time. 

[00:08:53] I'm very physical person. Same. And that helped, you know, I mean, I, until now, actually, I didn't know how much that [00:09:00] was helping me. Right. You don't know until it's like in front of your face and you can't do it. Yeah. So sitting in a room, you know, even with surgery, you know, surgery, recovery, a certain amount of movement is encouraged, but it has to be the right kind of movement. 

[00:09:12] Um, not what you're used to. Right. Right. So you really have to relearn that when you, when you can't. And so I think it's an important topic to discuss cuz who doesn't have some sort of physical injury in their life that limits how they can, how they can move, and how they can cope with stress. Like everybody's gonna encounter that. 

[00:09:30] Right. Um, so yeah, I think, I think maybe. And, and this is only just now occurring to me, but maybe as far as having a toolkit of coping skills, it's worth learning five or six different movement methods that work for you that could come into play if you know you, if you couldn't do one. Right. Exactly. And I, I, there's that reel I made on Instagram about, um, somatic movement. 

[00:09:55] And, and I've loved learning about that because there are ways to [00:10:00] move the stress throughout our body and get it out and not harbor that feeling. Cuz I know a lot of us, um, dog professionals in general, we, we are very anxious people because we are so empathetic and we just want to help. But sometimes that can turn into anxiety and not feeling like we know enough, not feeling like we're gonna help enough, whatever it is. 

[00:10:18] And then we fester and then, you know, our shoulders might start creeping up into our ears. We might start. Curving in on ourselves. And then it's like, okay, how is this going to help me? I need to open everything up, shake it off, open my body, and yeah, I just, I feel like we forget about that physical aspect a lot of the times when we're dealing with so much stress and doctors don't really acknowledge how much stress they actually encounter. 

[00:10:43] And, and not even the mental, but the physical stress. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Until your body tells you Right. Until we're burnt out. Done right. And, and sometimes it gets to the point of like, with you or me needing surgery, and our body bodies are physically like, no, you're [00:11:00] done. It's going to get worse. You have to stop now. 

[00:11:03] And it's just like, well, Shit. I had so much momentum though. Right. And, and, and what now? Right. And, and how am I gonna feel good during this? Like rec you want me to lay down for four weeks? Screw off. That's not gonna happen. Yeah. Oh, actually this is funny cuz I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was you that posted and I think I know what you're talking about where you do the heel drops. 

[00:11:24] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I can't do that now, honestly. I know. So I watched that and I hadn't had surgery yet and my back was, I still can't do it obviously cuz, cuz I'm recovering from surgery now. But prior to surgery, the back injury was so painful. Oh. I was like, oh god, I wanna do that one, but I can't do that one. 

[00:11:40] So you do a lot of reactivity training. You have a reactive dog yourself. I wanna talk more. Well, well, so, so, so let's stop real quick. Did, um, yes. He is no longer with us. He passed away I guess almost two years ago now. Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:55] However, if we're gonna talk about trauma there, um, I have a Rottweiler who's lovely, [00:12:00] she's amazing. Um, I would not call her reactive. Okay. I would call her sensitive. And, um, tentative, uh, that's like my third. Yeah. Yeah. I have a. Husky, who is a year and a half, and he is a rescue and he is a wild man, and he is also very vocal. 

[00:12:16] So he is borderline reactive right now. Um, okay. I could see that, that age too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm like, that's why this is very present in my mind. I'm like, am am I contributing to this? Am I creating this? You know, it's like whatever, but Right. But yeah, so I did have a reactive dog. Okay. And I currently have a maybe reactive dog. 

[00:12:37] You, you have a adolescent husky that, that's enough in its own. I know that feeling because Fern turns three this year. She is a Australian cattle dog, Husky Chihuahua. So just imagine that combo and then it, uh, adolescence. It, it was fun. Yeah. On top of getting a kitten in that mix, I'm like, I just, you know, I wanted to throw myself for a loop and really test my skills there.[00:13:00]  

[00:13:00] Right. I know. I know what I'm doing and somehow I wound up with two large breed adolescents at the same time. Like, what was I thinking? You know, and I feel like that just goes without saying that people think that trainers and like we have our backgrounds that we have and we can handle it all. We think we can and we want to take it on. 

[00:13:19] And then we're just like, why did we, why did we do this to ourselves?  

[00:13:22] But, so back to body movement and, and managing reactivity. I wanna talk about the stress, um, not just the emotional, but the physical stress that we encounter When. Maybe we have our own reactive dog, or we're working with reactive dogs, because I think a lot of us don't even really consider the physical stress that we take on when we're in the moment and setting clients up in that way. 

[00:13:48] Yeah. Well, I mean, right. You're not aware of it because mm-hmm. What you're doing as a, as either a reactive dog, guardian, whoever really, if you're holding the leash. Um, the handler. Yeah. Yeah, the handler. I mean, you're, you [00:14:00] are hypervigilant because you have to be, you do, you have to be, you have to be constantly scanning. 

[00:14:05] Um, And so you're, you're hypervigilant. I mean, that's what that is, right? And so your body is tense. Your head is on a swivel, it is happening. Um, the cortisol is there. It's in your system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is happening. So, you know, it's so unproductive, right? You hear it all the time, and so many clients come to me and they're like, I know it's my fault. 

[00:14:23] I know my anxiety is going through to him. And I'm like, oh gosh. It is not your fault. This is stressful. This whole thing. Is stressful, you're not causing this stress, you're trying to prepare, but your body is having its own initial response. Yeah. And also everybody, and everybody's coping and it's coming from a really good place, right? 

[00:14:42] It's coming from a place of I need to keep you safe. I need to keep us safe. . Yeah. Um, so that that toolkit, right, that, that ability to pause, to breathe to ground, to, you know, take a break. I was talking to a client yesterday who, uh, has two dogs and she's adding a puppy who is [00:15:00] both blind and deaf. 

[00:15:01] Um, and we were talking about just kind of prep work. Um, and, and that's something I was telling her cuz she's worried about the intro. She's worried about, you know, um, of course. And of course, you know, uh, and so we were talking through that and I said, what's the worst that can happen? And we talked through the things and then I was like, remember. 

[00:15:17] At any point you can take a break. So like if one dog's getting a little tense and you're like, oh God, don't push it. Mm-hmm. Put a, you know, put a wall between you. Go breathe. A dog can go in the crate with something to chew on for a while. You gotta just chill. You don't have to keep pushing it. Well, that's okay. 

[00:15:34] I, I think a lot of times as, as handlers and guardians and trainers, we think that we need to push through it. We need to, I mean, hello. We grew up in the eighties and nineties. It was just pushed through the stress and the trauma. Yeah. And we don't allow ourselves that space to remove ourselves from the situation, come down from it, and then maybe approach it again when it's like we give, and I say this all the time in the podcast, but it's [00:16:00] like we give ourself our dogs much more grace than we give ourselves. 

[00:16:03] Yeah. Okay. Because we allow them to take a break and, and go into another room and calm down. We know they need to calm down, but we don't give ourselves that same space. Yeah, man. It's about meeting, it's about meeting the needs on both sides. And I think that that is, it's gonna be a forever struggle. Um, for anyone who cares about their dog. 

[00:16:20] Of course, it's gonna be a forever of our struggle, but I think at least being aware of it, you know, okay, so these are the decompression tools that work for me, and these are the ones that work for my dog. And with more practice, you kind of can develop this check-in where it's like, Hmm, okay. How you doing? 

[00:16:34] Do you need a little decompression? Right. Are we good? Yeah, I think we're good. And so regularly doing that, I think is really helpful. Um, I'm gonna say I'm not there yet. Uh, no, it's perfect. It's a journey. I think I probably was at one point actually, um, currently post burnout. I'm, I'm not, I'm still relearning that, so it's tough. 

[00:16:52] Yeah. And I, I think that it would be false to say that we don't get burnt out because it happens to everyone. And [00:17:00] I, you know, there's this stuff going around of like, you know, you need to avoid burnout. You need to not have that happen. Set yourself up better. That's not realistic. We're human. We encounter stressful situations all the time, especially dog trainers. 

[00:17:15] If we're working with reactive set banks, aggression, puppies are a lot. Whatever it is, it's a lot. And I feel like we don't really acknowledge, we're going through a lot of stuff and, and we're not giving ourselves that time to process it. And so we get burnt out. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. Um, it's just, you know, and, and I speak from my own experience of. 

[00:17:37] I get burnt out, but then I still try to be productive in the burnout and I don't really rest. Yeah, it's just that need to always be doing things and getting ahead and it's just like we're setting ourselves back a few steps though, cuz we're not. Taking care of ourselves. But it's so hard. It's so hard. Especially as a business owner. Yeah. I think it's gonna be a lifelong struggle, actually. 

[00:17:58] Business or not. Yeah. Um, [00:18:00] I, I was thinking about, you know, how do I prevent burnout? How do I manage it? How do I work through it? Um, my answer to that, my honest answer is creating something. So it, it does work for me, but it isn't rest. And to your point, I don't, I still don't think I know quite how to rest. 

[00:18:15] Hopefully the surgery cover recovery is gonna teach me. But, um, if I'm feeling burned out or if I'm feeling overwhelmed in my career, uh, I'm a builder. So going out to work on a project, a wood, it's always Yeah, that creative, really helpful. You know, it gets you outta your brain. Mm-hmm. But it's still doing something. 

[00:18:32] Yeah. It's not actually resting. And I'm not quite sure I know how to do that. I think it is good though. You know, I think, I think being creative, something completely outside of. You know, dog behavior and everything else. Right. Um, can be really helpful. Whether it's drawing, painting, building something with wood, whatever. 

[00:18:48] Right. And I, I think that's a lot of like what I try to do. I try to be, it's always like I need to touch things. My hands. Yeah. And the, but it's also soothing [00:19:00] and it's, it's nice for my brain to focus on something that is more creative and it's calming for me, but it's not relaxing. 

[00:19:08] It might be relaxing for my brain mentally cuz I'm not doing the hard things, but I'm still exhausted. I'm not like, and, and it's like I get so jazzed from it that I'm just like buzzing afterwards and I'm just like, why do I have so much energy? That was so fun. I can't relax. Yeah. And I will, Physically force myself to get comfy, grab a book and like put myself in my papasan with like a heating pad and be like, just stay there. 

[00:19:34] Mm-hmm. Like, don't get up for like an hour. I have to give myself like rules, otherwise I will not, I'll just get burned out and then I hate what I do. And yeah, I think I, you know, it does need to be said that if you keep doing this and grinding the wheel and not giving yourself chances to mentally recover and physically recover, you're gonna end up resenting and, and really hating what you do. 

[00:19:56] And that's why yes, I'm not a trainer anymore. [00:20:00] Oh girl. I mean, to be, to be entirely honest is same. You know, I. For lack of a better word, I call myself a trainer, but it's not really what I do anymore. And my client load is far less than it was. And you know, I don't know if I'll ever go back to what I was doing before, which is training full-time. 

[00:20:15] I actually doubt it cuz that wasn't feeding my soul it was at the time until I burned out. But I mean, to your point, like it com completely, honestly. In la I was working all the time. I was breathing. I was, I was, I was driving in between sessions, I was working, I was, I was, you know, answering emails, answering texts and calls all the time. 

[00:20:32] Putting everything above yourself. Yeah, always. Also, I was drinking heavily. Um, you know, I had my own dogs to worry about. There was so much, and I hit a point that's, that's where the burnout started. Um, and I thought I could fix it by moving to Seattle. And actually that worked. It reinvented temporarily for a while. 

[00:20:48] Yeah. Yeah, it really did. Until, and this is something we didn't really talk about, but I bought land. I was like, I can't be in the city anymore. This is too much. So I bought some land out on Hud Canal, um, five [00:21:00] acres wild. No, nothing. Raw land. And I built a house. So Cool. I literally did this. I did this. I had, I had some shell builders or, um, shed builders come build the. 

[00:21:09] The, uh, shell of it. Foundation. Yeah. Yeah. And then I did everything else. But, um, out there I was creating constantly. Right. I was building, I was building, I built an outhouse, I built a fence. I built this house. I did all this stuff, and it was wonderful for my soul. It really was. That probably had to just feel so, like fulfilling though. 

[00:21:26] Yeah. In a sense. And, and it, it didn't help with a burnout. Right. No. Cuz you, you might have a little bit. Yeah, I never stopped. I like, you know, I didn't actually rest, I just switched from that obsession to this, this other obsession, um, while still doing dog training. Oh, you know, gosh, I was still driving to Seattle, um, couple times a week and also doing video sessions and I just, um, you know, uh, and then I think I did finally burn out. 

[00:21:53] My back gave out. I had to, you know, I'm, I'm now back in Wisconsin so I can get some help with fa from family while I recover and, um, [00:22:00] you know, plan my next steps. But, but to your point, yeah. And, and two younger trainers out there that might be listening, that is what happens right When you, when you don't, when you don't learn to rest at a certain point, you, your body makes you rest because Right, we're done. 

[00:22:16] You, you know what? That really. Reminds me of, and I think it does go without saying though, I know I say that so much, but you know, our income changed drastically. And living in San Francisco where it is very expensive, we were just like, what are we gonna do? We can't survive. And so having to make a big shift of changing everything, my mental health plummeted. Mm-hmm. Because I was the Energizer bunny for 10 plus years and then all of a sudden it was like, everything is still and not moving. 

[00:22:48] And. It's like, um, there's that visual that people always say, it's like, it's just if I'm a, it's a shark and they just have to keep going and keep swimming, keep going, keep going. And if I'm not going, then [00:23:00] I'm just gonna float to the surface. Yes. Like yes. Whoa. Exactly the same. Really, we, and it probably has, has something to do with our, our both our shared mental health diagnosis as well. 

[00:23:14] Um, right. Because I was only recently diagnosed as well. Um, it was just a couple of years ago that it finally was like, oh, that's what's been going on. You know, that's why I, I think we're all having that realization, and I think this podcast has like, brought that light to so many people of like, you know what I debated, I had ADHD or P D D, and it's like, you probably got it. 

[00:23:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But once you. If you do want that diagnosis or that reassurance it, once you do get that, it does help and helps you kind of pivot things in a way where you can be like, oh, okay, I see where this wasn't working for me in my business. This may work for neurotypical people, but now me. 

[00:23:53] Yeah, and, and I think that goes back to meeting our needs and, and burnout. If we're not [00:24:00] finding the ways in which our businesses, our schedule, our lives are set up for those that are neurotypical it. We're gonna burn out, of course, because we're not setting ourselves up in the best way possible. And I say that after how many years of doing that to myself, and just this year, literally as of January, 2023, I realized I needed to change everything because nothing was working out for me. 

[00:24:25] And I was constantly just in the cycle of burnout, I would power through a week, not really give myself a weekend power through the next, and then three weeks in I'd hit a wall and hate it, wanna drop everything, and we'd be severely depressed and mm-hmm. It, it's, it goes back to being neurodivergent and just trying to keep up and mask and be like everyone else, and we are not. 

[00:24:47] Yep. Well said. 

[00:24:49] I'm curious with. Navigating, you know, you have a lot of reactive dog, um, clients and how do you coach them through that, with your background and your [00:25:00] experience? Because I know I'm, I'm sure you approach it with more empathy and focus on The Guardian really taking care of themselves. Yeah, a lot of listening. 

[00:25:10] Um, I think that that is very different from how I used to function and I think I was a really good dog trainer in my younger years, but I didn't spend a lot of time listening. I was much more, let's jump in. Let's dive in. Let me explain this to you and then show, get a trainer dog to do this, and then watch you do it and help you through it. 

[00:25:28] Um, I stop a lot more at the beginning and do a lot more listening to both the client and the dog. Uh, I also. Actually, right now I'm doing mostly separation anxiety. And that's another one where listening is just so important because at a certain point, all we can do right now is desensitization. 

[00:25:47] Mm-hmm. And, and, and setting our dogs up to have a stress, stress, less life as possible. Um, uh, but outside of that, if as long as we're doing our homework, sometimes I'm just gonna need to listen to you vent [00:26:00] and just say, yeah, I know this is really hard. And sometimes that's all they need. They just need confirmation that they're okay in those feelings. 

[00:26:07] Yeah. So listening is huge, but also I think providing toolkits. So, um, I think, I think this comes into play with whether you're dealing with. Any, any dog that is struggling with big feelings of any sort, um, that means big feelings for the Guardian and right, the trainer. so we all need a toolkit. We are very, you know, as trainers, we're very obsessed with making sure the dog has a toolkit, right? 

[00:26:30] Um, make sure we know how to scatter treats, treat magnet, um, you know, emergency U-turn. Yes. All the things, right? So they have a good toolkit, but you, you know, there, there are two very important pieces of this. There's the dog and then there's the handler, there's the guardian. So we've got, we've gotta have, have a few toolkits. 

[00:26:48] So for me, I think it's number one, I set my clients up to know whatever physical things that you need to wear that help you feel more secure. Being in a public space, do it. for me, I have kind of a ridiculous [00:27:00] outfit. I wear walking my dogs. I use a walking stick, um, which, you know, is helpful for my back, but it's also there, like in case you know, this, that is mysterious thing in my head that is like, I don't know, somewhere between like a bear and a lion comes charging at us, you know, you're prepared a stick. 

[00:27:16] Yeah. Um, so I've got that. I've also got the, you know, I've got, I've got the pet shield spray in case, you know, something were to happen. And I also have a little mini air horn. Um, I have, what else do I have? I have my, my whistle, my recall whistle if I need it. Um, I have a little tug toy if I need it. You know, I have a little, little pack. 

[00:27:34] Anyway, whatever you need to have. Yeah. Yeah. So whatever you need to have. And then there's your tool, you know, your training toolkit. So your dogs need to, you know, we, we do need to have some pretty reliable cues and ways of helping our dogs navigate stressful situations. So that just means practicing those at home. 

[00:27:48] And that's the training element, right. Um, But then the rest of it is social support. You gotta make sure you have that social toolkit, whether that just means it's your best friend on the phone, or maybe there's a, maybe there's a podcast you listen to in [00:28:00] one ear while you're walking. Maybe it's the leash. 

[00:28:01] Mine. Yeah. I don't know. It's whatever is is helpful for you and feels supportive. Um, you know, I love that. Yeah. Looking for that. Oh, I wanted to mention too, I just found something called Ruff Relationships. It's, um, Marlene Lab, O'Neil Laberge, and I'm, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but just look up rough relationships. 

[00:28:21] She's got this cool setup that is helpful for both caregivers and professionals. There's two different series that you can take, and it's all about this. It's about all about helping the guardian or the trainer cope with all of the mental struggles and all of the emotions that come up with having a reactive dog. 

[00:28:38] Ooh. Okay. I'll plug a link into the show notes so people can find that. That's, that sounds really useful. Yeah, I found that in my, uh, family dog mediator group, so, awesome. Anyway, that's, that's all social support. I think the other parts of that is just knowing your emotional toolkit. So, you know, knowing, I, I love that you share these things, but those somatic tools, [00:29:00] um, grounding, breath work, physical movement, whatever, but having those and knowing that, you know, sometimes on a walk, I'm gonna need to dive into the trees here, and we're gonna need to sit down for a second and breathe together. 

[00:29:13] Yes. Because mama's not Okay. And that's actually good for your dog too. If you can find a little safe space, even if that is like, you gotta push, push back a little bit somewhere together. Yeah. And sit down together, maybe do a little treat scatter shirt, and then just sit there and breathe. It's gonna help them, it's gonna help you. 

[00:29:31] Yeah. I, yeah. Oh, that's just bringing forward all these memories of when I was like in the pits of reactivity training with, um, her name was Skye. She was a border collie. She was adolescent and my favorite dog I ever trained. Um, I love her parents. I still like, interact with 'em on social media. Um, but we just, she was very, so she was bred for herding for, for what border [00:30:00] Collies are bred for, but she came from a line that was specific for specific types of herding. 

[00:30:06] Then they moved to San Francisco, which is, I understand San Francisco's a hot city to live in. I loved living there. I miss it. But I don't think they anticipated her genetics and what could happen. Um, regardless of raising her from, you know, very beginning, early puppyhood from the breeder, they did everything right. 

[00:30:24] Like these were the most devoted guardians I have ever met. And they were just like, I don't understand. And she would lunge and bark at cars and buses and that is not safe. If she got off her leash, her long line, it's unpredictable. And she lived in an apartment building and so just getting out of the apartment building was a lot. 

[00:30:47] And so we had to have the protocols of like, okay, what do you have physically to be prepared? Okay, now how are you going to be emotionally prepared for going outside? Don't freak out. And internalize it cuz it's not your fault. You [00:31:00] are going through a gauntlet just to get outside with your dog. And, and even that can like really set up the levels of stress depending on how you do it. 

[00:31:07] So we had to navigate time windows of when was the least busy time when to do it. And, and having to get to that state is so mentally emotionally taxing. Um, but then, you know, we got outside and it was, I had to immediately hit the ground running with training and get her to. Come down a few decimals because she'd already be up here. 

[00:31:30] Um, and for those that aren't watching, my hand is going above my head because she would already be almost close to threshold. Um, and so I would have to go hide in the alleyway and play with her with a tug and get her to come down. And then we would try and do training, and our outside training was maybe like 10 minutes long if that got her back inside. 

[00:31:49] And I would work to bring her back down because she'd be o so overstimulated. And so that was such a trying time. I was so stressed. I was so anxious most of the times when I [00:32:00] ended those training sessions and, and this is nothing on her or her parents, I would go in my van and cry because I would feel like a failure because I didn't have a good session, even though it was like I got her outside and we did a little bit of training, but. 

[00:32:14] I, you know, as trainers and, and even as you know, dog guardians, there's that feeling of, I'm not doing enough. I know all this information. Why can't I change this for the dog? I'm not helping this dog. I suck at what I do. I shouldn't do this. Yeah. And you, you know, it's, it's hard to remember that we are good at what we're doing. 

[00:32:33] It's the environment that we're working in, and we're doing the best we can. I mean, that's an I, the situation you described right, is an impossible, and my heart's like racing from describing it, so, yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm right there because I'm like, I know I've had, I've had so many reactive herding breeds in Los Angeles and Seattle, and, and it's not, You know, it's so hard for the guardian not to feel like it's their fault. 

[00:32:58] It's also so hard [00:33:00] for the trainer not to feel like a constant failure. Always. Yeah. Because you aren't seeing the progress. I mean, nobody's seeing the progress they wanna see at the end of each session. Of course you're not, because this stuff doesn't change overnight. And this dog is being presented with what is freaking them out the most, maybe three, four times a day. 

[00:33:16] Yeah. And they lived in like the heart of the city. I'm like, yo, you guys gotta like find a different spot. Like this is way too crowded for her. Yeah. Like it was just buses all the time. And luckily they did get a more quiet spot in the city after I quit training with her cuz I moved. But. Oh, I was just like you, you gotta change your environment. 

[00:33:32] Oh my God. Why? That's possible when someone can actually do that. I had a client do that once where I was like, you know, I was just honest with him. I didn't say, you need to move because no, you can't. You don't know somebody's situation. Right. But I just was describing the environment and why it was problematic and whatever, and you know, and I kind of towards it, if you could move, you know, and I said, just kidding, you know? 

[00:33:53] But like five months later they moved and the reactivity really wasn't an issue anymore. It was something that they continued to kind of [00:34:00] manage and work through like little things, but it wasn't ever present. You know, it's the environment in that. Whew, man. I mean, that says a lot about us too because our environment changing. 

[00:34:10] I mean, holy cow, you, oh my God. Like, yeah, going from LA to Seattle to having your own land, like, hello. I'm sure you've definitely noticed a change in that. I noticed a huge change from living in San Francisco, eight years, heart of the mission, very, very busy area, um, to going to the Oregon coast in a small town that no one really knows of, and like, I barely had cell reception, my mental health. 

[00:34:34] It was right in front of my face and I was just like, wow. It's like I, I loved. Being outside more and not seeing buildings. But at the same time it was like, that was a really quick shift. Yeah. And like I'm having to come down and Yeah. I don't think we realize that until we get out of the stressful environment, like we tell our clients all the time, you're not gonna be able to fully come down. 

[00:34:57] And that could be right. And it'll take time. [00:35:00] Right. Oh, it takes transition so much time. Oh, it took me a good year for my levels to come back down. Oh man. Yeah, I was, I, well, you were talking earlier. I was thinking too, because I, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't say this like, as dog professionals, really in any capacity, whether we work as veterinarians, vet techs, you know, groomers, dog trainers, behavior consultants, whatever. 

[00:35:21] Um, We aren't mental healthcare practitioners. So like, you know, I think knowing when to when it's okay to bring that up to a client. Like if a client is struggling and you can see it, of course you need to be very careful about, you know, not saying, I think you need therapy. You're not gonna say that. No. 

[00:35:41] But you might bring up, you know, you might figure out a gentle way of kind of bringing up, you know, I wish I could help you with this piece of it. I can't, I don't have that training. What has been really helpful for me and other clients in the past has been really talking through this, you know, coping strategies and stuff with a qualified [00:36:00] mental health professional, with a counselor, with a therapist, whatever. 

[00:36:03] Maybe that's something you could look into and you know, I mean, it might be even. I don't have this yet and I probably should, but a list of resources, contacts that I can send to clients if they're kind of thinking about it. Yeah. And just being able to provide that support and, and say, you know, you're not alone in this. 

[00:36:20] Let's maybe form a bigger network to help, because this is a big journey and you need to have your appropriate outlet, um, that protects you as, as the, the animal professional. Because I think that's where actually a lot of my burnout came from. I was taking way too much responsibility. Um Oh yeah. Same for each client's behavior, the human's behavior, the dog's behavior. 

[00:36:43] You know, the fact that this dog can't get past two minutes on separation anxiety is all my fault. Um, it's, it's not, there's a lot of people on this team, you know, there's a lot of individuals on this team. It's not just you. Right. And remembering that, look, I don't, [00:37:00] I mean, I don't actually have that training. 

[00:37:01] There are tips and tricks I learned from books and my own therapists, but I don't know how to fix this for you. I think that's the thing a lot of the times is like, And I don't, this isn't a poo poo on, clients, it's, it's, they come to you as a professional, so they just expect you to help in every aspect. 

[00:37:19] But I don't think they notice the mental health and emotional where that happens when you know you're navigating whatever it is you're training with your dog. It could be reactivity. It could just be trying to like, not want to punt your puppy across the street when they are nipping at your legs. Like, let's be real. 

[00:37:38] I'm a professional, I know what to do, but like when you are over stimulated and burnt out, you can't immediately go to your tools and go, okay, I know how to handle this. 

[00:37:49] You're overstimulated, you're overstimulated. Um, and, and having a mental health professional to um, suggest to clients will really help take that load off of [00:38:00] you. Cuz that's not your responsibility. You're just, you're the trainer. You're not just the trainer, but you are just the trainer. 

[00:38:06] If that makes sense. Yeah. Good way to put that. Yeah. Yes. I can be this for you and I can't and, and there are limits there. I I I can't be, but I'm only this for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you know, I just makes me think of so many clients I've had over the years, which, which now are, are, are pretty. 

[00:38:24] They're not friends. We don't talk every day. But you know, these people, you have a better relationship, you know? Yeah. I like to get updates and stuff, but honestly, during their programs, they were a handful. They weren't texting me in the middle of the night. They were like, it was a lot. And I'm glad that we are to the point now where they can shoot me a quick email with a little update or a quick funny text or whatever. 

[00:38:43] Um, but yeah, sometimes, sometimes it's a lot. And you talk about this, and I appreciate this a lot. You talk about this on, on your podcast a lot, but setting those boundaries, my God, and then sticking to them not being available all the time. I mean, that's like, I, [00:39:00] so, so what I do as far as trying to set my own boundaries or telling people right away when I start working with them, you know, here's when I'm available, you can message me anytime. 

[00:39:10] Um, I'll respond during my working hours, whatever. Um, good. And then the hard part is actually sticking to that, right? Oh God. I know. It's always See that text. At 10:00 PM are you gonna answer it? No, because you need to stick to your boundaries. But how much are you gonna overthink it and let up, let it take up your mental space because you read it that, oh, you were just in my mind right now. 

[00:39:32] Right. Well there's, so I have been toying with this and I think I should is is doing that separate messaging app that isn't actually, yeah. It doesn't even tell me right now. I've just been, I mean, people just get my personal cell phone number, which is probably a mistake, but you know, so I just see their texts come in. 

[00:39:46] Um, and so that is mental work for me. Seeing come in and even, and having to ignore it. Read it is a lot. Respond. Well, and just going, okay, I have that, gonna have to read that in a couple days. Like, I don't know about you, but knowing I have to [00:40:00] respond and read something, it's like, ugh, that's just as taxing. 

[00:40:03] Well it also, yeah, it makes you feel like a failure every step of the way cuz it's like, I'm not responding to that this minute, I'm also not responding to it the next minute. And it keeps weighing on you. Right? That's, and, and, and I've made this rule with myself of like, so I'll stop work around like five or 6:00 PM and I'm just like, I'm not gonna check my email at five because I know if I see something in my inbox and I go, because I'm gonna feel the need to like respond or figure out something for that and then I'm not gonna let it go when it's like, okay, I'll just open my email and it'll be there in the morning and I can handle it then. 

[00:40:38] But, and this is something I said in a social media post, um, about taking work, email off a phone because I'm very. I'm a stickler about that. I will say that until the cows come home, like, you gotta get work, email off your phone. It's when people email you, they're not expecting an immediate response. They're emailing you. Email has never been a quick way to respond to someone. 

[00:40:59] You [00:41:00] can either do that, you know, Facebook Messenger, dm, text call, but email is never a fast way of communication. So I, and I feel like a lot of times, at least from the amount of, I mean, all my friends are dog trainers, but, I, I just, so many times I hear them saying like, oh, I didn't respond to this client fast enough. 

[00:41:17] And it's like, but they emailed you. You don't need to respond that fast. . And yeah, just, just having that boundary within your work of when you check your email, when you open things, it really helps getting things categorized so that you're not constantly thinking about work. 

[00:41:33] Yeah. Well, and, and just, I, I know I will never shut up about having work email on phone, but it's just, you're always having work with you, when are you gonna be able to step away from it? Mm-hmm. Because you're gonna have that impulse to be like, well this came in, let me just read it really quick. And then it's like, well, shit, okay, now I need to get to work. 

[00:41:49] And it's like 8:00 PM at night. Yeah. The fact that I'm always available and none. I not even talking about work, I'm talking about just always available because I always have, my phone is [00:42:00] something that really blows my parents' mind. I mean, they, neither of them, my mom has a cell phone that she uses occasionally, but it's one of those paper text deals. 

[00:42:07] It's not even a, like a real cell phone. But, um, my dad would never touch a computer or a cell phone. They have a landline and that is it. And, and envious, you know, and they, they can't understand at all. I mean, I almost feel bad if my phone is in the other room. Like, I feel guilty somehow that I'm not available for someone. 

[00:42:27] And that in itself is, is a work that I know that I could do because it is actually, you know, 20 years ago that was normal that you Right phone on you all the time. Right. You know, and that's okay. People were actually probably a lot more healthy mentally. so I think it's been a being home and being with my parents and also being in a rural environment, which, um, oh yeah. You know, you lose power, you lose whatever, y you don't get service half the time, places you're driving. Um, it's been a good reminder that actually you don't need to be available all the time to everybody who might possibly [00:43:00] need you. 

[00:43:01] Yes. And you know, that's not saying that we all need to go off grid or that, but, but just knowing that we don't need to be in constant communication. Um, my aunt in-law, Veronica, she is very anti-social media and, you know, she knows what I do with Woof Cultr. She knows that I really like to be active on it and. 

[00:43:22] Do that. And she's just like, it, it's funny cause she has a different, you know, different generation doesn't really understand social media and she's just like, you know, I don't understand the need to like always update people and, and share your life. You know, you, you don't have to share everything. And it's like, yeah, but I want to, and people like that. 

[00:43:39] Yeah. But I think having the boundaries within that does help. Yeah. But it's hard and it's that dopamine of getting liked. Yeah. But it's also, I mean, sure you just said the dopamine of getting liked, but there is always an opposite side to that, right? Oh, always. With everything. If there's give and take, if, if you see the dislikes, for example, like if you know you've, [00:44:00] you've got a troll or you've got people who have strong feelings about you in some way that gets posted or you, or you posted something two hours ago and. 

[00:44:08] You didn't, didn't have any likes yet. Yeah, yeah. Like, like that gonna hurt. You know, you're like, I put this much effort and like three people liked it. What the hell? Yeah. Like I was on Canva for like five hours making this beautiful post. Look at it. Yeah. It can really, and, and it can hurt. And I think, um, it's, you know, social media is so important to talk about, right? It's, it's almost like it needs to be an ongoing conversation because also things are changing by the day. It's always, yeah. Um, it's like evolving and like, as a business owner, like a small business owner, it's just me, um, doing what I'm doing and I don't, I don't have any employees or anything at this point. 

[00:44:44] Um, and so figuring out, you know, yeah. What, what portion of my life should social media take? Um, right. First just, just business wise, but then what effect is that having on my mental health, um, which is a also a huge important part of my business [00:45:00] cuz I need to be sane to run my business. Um, and it's, it's really hard because social media, I, I want the followers and I'm scared of the followers. 

[00:45:09] There's two sides of it. And I think everybody feels that. Like, I want people to see what I'm posting because I wanna be helpful. And they also, yeah, there's a, there's a selfish part. I would, I would really love to have my name out there. Um, and I'm terrified of it cuz like, what if they don't like me? You know? 

[00:45:24] It's, it's that, that's what it is, that it's at the heart of it. It's what if they don't like me? You know, what if I'm up goes back to good old MySpace, top eight really screwing us up. Yeah. Yeah. It's so scary. It's just, it's a scary world and it's ever evolving and yeah. That's that's a piece of burnout. 

[00:45:44] A hundred percent. I've gotta be careful about the amount of social media I consume, especially these days with Oh yeah, with, oh, with just the hot, the big feelings surrounding our industry and within our industry. Um, you know, I have, I've gone [00:46:00] on rabbit holes of reading through kind of hateful comments, and it's been, it's so easy too. 

[00:46:05] It's really easy and it's, and it hurts actually. you feel awful afterwards. You go to sleep filled with anxiety. You wake up, it fogs you down. You internalize it. You may not think it in the moment, but it's in there and it's in your brain and it plants a seed, and then you spiral. Yep. Yep. And it's kind of hard to when you're, when you spend too much time on your little side of the internet, right? 

[00:46:28] So if, if everything you see is surrounding dog behavior and training and whatever, and all this stuff, um, if that's all you're really paying attention to, uh, you kind of forget that there's this whole other world out there. Like right after, after the most recent controversy, um, there was, I was. I kind of came out of it and I was talking to my mom and I was like, oh, and there's this thing, and then there's this person who did this, and then this person said this, and it was all of this. 

[00:46:50] Oh my God. And that's the dog training world. That's not even, she was like, who? What? And then you forget. It's like, oh, this is just like this tiny part of the world like this. [00:47:00] Most people have no idea. Right, right, right. They don't know what's going on, what everyone's debating and hair's splitting, and you're just over here like overthinking, over analyzing everything. 

[00:47:09] And they're like, why are you so worked up? Like, do you not know? Like we just came out of a pandemic. You're like, yeah, but. Like, yeah, well that's a, that's an important piece, right? It's like, okay, that's actually refreshing, right? To like step away and be like, oh, okay. You know what? This is not, it's a small, it's okay. 

[00:47:24] Small thing. And that's for anyone that's listening, like, yes, the dog training community online is very important. Networking is important. Having peers and colleagues to bounce ideas off of and commiserate with and, and share ideas, whatever, it's important. But it's such a tiny sliver of like, what's going on with your career, with the world, with your business. 

[00:47:46] It's so minuscule in that sense. And I think a lot of the times we think that social media is like the thing that is where we need to be. We need to be active, but it's not, and it's clear. It really takes a toll on our [00:48:00] mental health. It's, I mean, hello, like, Yeah. I mean if, if, if I wanna think about things that actually make me feel good, it is being with other humans and helping them and dogs. 

[00:48:12] Uh, obviously I think I didn't say that because I just assume everybody is like, yeah, of course dogs. It's standards. Yeah. Um, but you know, I love teaching people. I really love that, you know, the one-on-one, the I'm here with you in person and we are, we are making a change, a positive change right now with what we're doing. 

[00:48:33] Um, Sitting on social media, you're not getting that feeling. I mean, you might get those little dopamine. Sure. It's also kind of risky, you know? Yes. It's an important part. But for me, I think I've realized what I need to be sane. Actually, for a while I thought I can just do virtual training, but I also know for me, that doesn't feed my soul and I'm gonna burn out that way. 

[00:48:55] So for me, I'm gonna need to maybe teach a group class [00:49:00] quarterly. Yeah. Um, maybe I, I make that as an maybe evens even donation based offering to the community. Um, I don't know, you know, maybe I do talks at vet clinic, you know, whatever, to get that social aspect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I think that's why I kind of tapped out of training too, is because we moved and I was just like, okay, I can still do things virtually. 

[00:49:21] But I didn't like it. Mm-hmm. And it didn't have the same ooph for me. It didn't ig it, it didn't ignite that fire that I had for training because it was all virtual and I couldn't physically be there. Yeah. Not to poo virtual training, cuz it's amazing. And look at the freaking changes we've made because of it. 

[00:49:40] But that's why I stopped because I liked the physical aspect. I liked being there with my clients in the weeds and virtually it just didn't feed, like you said, it didn't feed my soul the way I wanted it to. Um, and so I had to find a different outlet for that. But that's okay. Mm-hmm. Not, you know, and that, that goes back to saying [00:50:00] like, you don't need to do what everyone else is doing. 

[00:50:02] You need to do what feels best for you. Yeah. You need to make money. Mm-hmm. But there are ways to do that while still keeping yourself at top priority. And I think a lot of times that. We run our businesses and, and, and we become entrepreneurs in that. But we don't think, is this feeding my soul? Is this gonna fill my cup? 

[00:50:21] Do I feel good navigating my business and just feel fulfilled? Cuz you can work as long as you can and, and love what you do. But if it's not lighting a fire and making you feel good about it, then what's the point? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's the point exactly. Um, you know, and what are the, what are the potential problems that come from that can come from, oh my God, I can tell you. 

[00:50:43] You know, it's not fun. Um, yeah, really figuring out what feeds your soul, I think is so important. You know, we, you know, meet your dog's needs. Yes. But of course, oh my God, meet your needs too. And, and if we say that and people will go, oh yeah, of course. But. Are, are you taking it in when [00:51:00] we say that? Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:00] And are you actually thinking of how your needs are getting met? Because a lot of the times people will be like, oh, well I love getting outside. I'll go hike with my dog. Okay. But you're still having to be scanning the environment, being aware of the environment, pulling off the trail with your dog. You can't just pass people. 

[00:51:18] Maybe like there's still those steps that you are putting in front of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Of like, that's not fully meeting your needs. I understand why, but that's not it. I'm, I'm laughing because thank you for, thank you for that. I'm actually gonna try and take that advice. Um, I'm always saying, you know, I went for a walk with the dogs, you know, um, not relaxing, but the, the, not at all for me, because I'm someone who has a lot of trauma, um, around a reactivity and aggression and a walk is not at all relaxing for me. 

[00:51:47] If I have a dog with me. No, I, it's furthest thing from relaxing. No, it's not. And like, same here. Like, we've had previous dogs in the past that were very reactive and aggressive and it wasn't enjoyable doing the neighborhood walks. So I [00:52:00] don't find that enjoyable and mm-hmm. Fern's great now that she's older and she can handle the neighborhood walks, but that's still not relaxing for me. 

[00:52:06] I'm still having to be on, I'm still having to have treats, be prepared, be ready for triggers, be ready to bring her down if she needs to come down from something. That's not relaxing. Yeah, it's, it's, you're still in a different state than you would be if you were doing it yourself and letting your mind wander. 

[00:52:23] Cause that's the thing, when we're working with our animals and out in the world, we're not able to let our mind just. Go. Mm-hmm. And do its thing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, more to that. I mean, just, just more of that. I just, I want more of that for everyone I know and love in the world. More freedom to exist and let your mind go where it wants to go without being told where to go by social media without being forced where to go because of a, of a need that someone dependent on you needs just the freedom for even a couple minutes just to sit and let your mind go, you know? 

[00:52:57] Yes. And I know that it almost comes, it, it does not [00:53:00] almost, it comes from a privileged place to say that because it, um, there's so many people out there who don't have that ability. You're right. Who really aren't able to do that. Um, so I acknowledged the privilege, but I just, I wish that for everyone, you know, I wish everyone could just have the freedom to. 

[00:53:15] Ah, just breathe and let your mind go where it's gonna go. Because without that, I mean, oh, you're just constantly reacting you wrong. That's all you're doing. You're just reacting all the time. I will say it is definitely a learned skill in learning how to decompress and relax and y I mean, that's why this podcast has been formed because I realized a lot of people don't have that, or they need that, that reminder, because we don't have that reminder in the training industry and in any of our courses, any webinars. 

[00:53:46] No one is saying like, Hey, take a second for yourself. Like it's, how do we do this for the client? How do we do this for the dog? How do we get these CEUs? How do we, nah, nah, nah. It's never like, Hey, check in with yourself. [00:54:00] And it's a learned skill. It takes a lot of time. It's taken me years to figure that out. 

[00:54:04] But that can be something as simple of, you know, maybe you have a balcony or a porch or a backyard and you just go sit. No phone, nothing. Like, but being able to sit and just let that happen is hard. Mm-hmm. Like just me going in my yard and sitting down and letting my mind do its thing. Not thinking about work, not thinking about what I need to do. 

[00:54:25] That can happen when I go back inside. But learning to just come down, that takes time. It's not easy. I had to learn it the hard way. I had to feel very uncomfortable and hate it for a while. But then after I did it enough times, I was like, I look forward to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's something about water for me that helps that happen. 

[00:54:44] Oh yes. Right. Like, you know, I do the thing too, the just the grounding thing where if I just have a couple minutes and I wanna go stand outside and, and allow that to happen, I do it. But in order for that really nice fluid thought to happen for me mm-hmm. I gotta stare at some moving water somewhere. Oh, I totally [00:55:00] feel that. 

[00:55:00] I love that you say that cuz not many people even think about that. That's so true. Um, ugh, God. And just when I lived on the coast and, you know, our, our, uh, aunt has like, they live on a river and so, oh my God. Like my stress levels just went who after living in San Francisco. So being in the nature. Yeah. 

[00:55:19] And what were you gonna say? It was probably the sound too literal sound of moving water. Like Yes. And like, not sound of traffic and honking horns and like, um, houseless people outside my window. Like just the ch that shift. And so, Yeah. I don't even know where I was going with that, but yes, I, I think it just comes back to whatever we are doing in our careers, we need to find ways to check in with ourselves, whether it be in the moment when we're dealing with a reactive dog, because, you know, if we're getting stressed and they're stressed, who's gonna help? 

[00:55:52] Who in the situation here? Right. Right. No one's helping it. This is a, a terrible spiral. Right. And it's like, [00:56:00] we're not gonna be helpful when we're stressed and overstimulated. And if we notice that, okay, let's go back inside, let's bring ourselves down, go give them a snuffle toy puzzle toy, and you just go and breathe. 

[00:56:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I mean, well, one thought on what you were just saying is, I'm not sure I knew what my needs were until recently. No, it takes time. Yeah. And so, so, so meeting your needs can, I think some people are just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I gotta drink water. I gotta do some breathing. I gotta do the fucking yoga. 

[00:56:32] Oh my God. You know how many times is just like, oh yeah, you just have to do more yoga. Okay, that'll be fine. No, you just need to move your body. It's, it's, it's not enough. That's not enough that, that advice is not enough because everybody's needs are so different and I think it is so worth taking some time to try and figure out what the heck your needs are. 

[00:56:53] You're an individual. They might be very different. Like I'm just now figuring out [00:57:00] that I do need moving water very close to me to be sane. So, um, I also need to live in an area where I can. Find places that I can feel safe with my dogs. Mm-hmm. And I can let them be off leash. So, um, you know, there's nothing that calms me more I think, than watching my dogs enjoy romping and running. 

[00:57:21] And there's so few places you can do that safely. I mean, I have adolescent dogs. I don't feel comfortable just walking into the woods and letting them off leash. Oh God. No. Anything could happen. Yeah. But yesterday I was at a post-surgical appointment and so we were up by Lake Superior and we found this little beach that there were all these logs, so there's only a certain part of the beach they could use. 

[00:57:43] They couldn't get past these areas. Oh. So it's like I obtained. Yeah. And they could run and I could look at the water and I wasn't stressed. And I remember getting in the car after and it was like, whoa, I Right. Speaks right. When you just [00:58:00] have that perfect, like mesh of things and that's not always perfect. 

[00:58:03] And I know that, you know, we don't all have access to that. It's. It's a matter of finding in your environment where that can work for you. And it's different for everyone. It looks different for everyone. You know, before my surgery, I, there's a park near us that I know I can trust. Fern, I, I let her on the long line. 

[00:58:23] Um, the few times I had her off leash, I learned not to do that. Yeah. Been there. But, um, I, I have her all long line and we just have a good time. And I've, I've learned that there are, especially now that it's lighter, like if I can go at 6:00 AM before anyone's there, like her and I have a good time. And there were moments when I would go to start my day and I'm just like, I don't wanna go sit down right now. 

[00:58:48] I don't wanna go at my desk. And I'd look at Fern and she'd look like, you know, I, I wanna go outside. I wanna do stuff. And so I'd be like, oh, okay, well I'll, I'll have a little later day, I'll start maybe an hour later if it means I get to go have a [00:59:00] good time with her. And I know every time I'm gonna feel good after I go out with her. 

[00:59:05] Mm-hmm. And it's not that it's near water, it's just, it's quiet. I can hear the birds. It's very foresty, um, big field for her to go on and just go sniff. And I know that she can decompress and just go be a dog. And I can still have a great view of the, um, environment and, and keep an eye on things. But I don't have to be hyper-vigilant because it's such a big open space that I can see things and just like, that's it for me. 

[00:59:33] I'm not near water. I love water. I love being in the mountains. Mm-hmm. But that's good enough for where I live. Yeah. In my urban, suburban envi environment. Yeah. I've, you know, I think that's good advice for, for everybody. Cause I've certainly been in locations in my life where, you know, it was very hard to find a place to, to, to relax. 

[00:59:51] I have made, somehow I've made this happen for myself. Um, uh, well, sort of out of need. I mean, you know, right now it's usually how it happens. [01:00:00] Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm building a van cuz I thought I'm gonna do van life. Um, that's still a dream of mine. I love one. Yeah. I don't, you know, in, in. To be realistic. I actually don't think we're gonna be able to do it. 

[01:00:13] My back is never gonna be the same as it was. Um, you know, my dog just had t p l low surgery. Oh yeah. I'm worried that's a, she might have another. Um, cuz sometimes when one good leg goes, the other leg goes, oh, I know that too. Well, I have some trauma. I'm a little nervous about traveling the country by myself, um, at this point in my life. 

[01:00:30] Right. You know, so I think probably what I'll do, you know, is, is just finish the van, sell it and, and I mean, I don't, I don't have much in my savings account, so I'm thinking maybe I'll, I'll buy a very small chunk of some raw land near water and figure it out from there. I love that you just have, I'm sure it's not that you have these set ideas, it's just like, well, this could be plan B, this could be plan C. 

[01:00:52] Yeah. And they're just hypotheticals, but they're directions you could lean into and yeah, they're not concrete, but it's just like, well, if that doesn't work [01:01:00] out, I like this idea. Yeah. Yeah. And being able to shift your perspective helps you. At least from my perspective, it, it helps me not get bogged down with the negative that can come in that. 

[01:01:10] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because if you're not meeting expectations, you know, if you have these plans, life is gonna going to, gonna thwart your plans every time. We were laughing when we first got on the call. Right. Is cuz I was super stoked about, um, being on your podcast. I like, I made sure my office space was clean and looking good. 

[01:01:28] Right. And then we lost power because there was a thunderstorm in the Midwest and I had to go to the community, the little towns community center. And I've got this funny setup now, but, and no one would know. I know, like no one would know before you're like, look, I'm in a storage room and I'm like, It looks like you're in your office. 

[01:01:44] So it works. Like, but it's, it's being able to adapt and not dwell on, oh God, this is gonna seem so unprofessional. No, it's Mandy. I don't see that as unprofessional. I just see that as, hey, this person knows how to roll with the punches and [01:02:00] just make the best out of it. Those are my kind of people. Good, good. 

[01:02:03] But I think that goes just with businesses and, and with life in general. If you don't learn to just roll with the shitty situations and, and try to find the good in it, you're gonna, it's gonna just take over. And that's something I really learned big time from my husband because I was always, anytime there was a problem I would fester. 

[01:02:24] And he is the type that would be like, all right, well how are we gonna figure this out? And it took, you know, us being together nine years for me to finally adapt to his. Way of thinking of like, all right, well I just need to problem solve cuz no one taught me how to problem solve growing up. It was always crisis and fester on the crisis. 

[01:02:40] And I'm the victim when it's like, okay, I need to figure this out. And I, I think that's why I love dog training so much because it's a lot of figuring it out and, and learning to offset things and how is it going to be better? It's a lot of problem solving and we do that great with our clients, but when it comes to our lives and taking care of [01:03:00] ourselves, it does not trickle over. 

[01:03:01] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. I think almost all the people I know that have probably all the people I know that have, you know, chosen this as a profession, uh, give far, far more of themselves to other people than they, than they do to themselves. Well, and I just, that really, I mean, I feel like you're like me, but like pretty much all my friends are dog trainers. 

[01:03:19] Mm-hmm. And that's for a reason. Um, because I hate explaining dog training to people that, but it, it's also just they're so like-minded and they understand your journey. And I'm not saying that, you know, you need to go make friends with a bunch of dog trainers, but it helps having people that are on your same wavelength and understand where you are because yeah, it can be a very lonely journey. 

[01:03:41] And if, if we don't have others to not rely on, but share the. Experience with, and it's gonna be lonely and we're gonna get burnt out fast. But, and, and I think this is where this podcast is really helpful, is because we're hearing other people going through the same journey and we're being reassured, like it's not just me. 

[01:03:59] [01:04:00] Mm-hmm. Even, even the, even the big guys, like, you know, Mike Oh my God, I can't wait to share like, uh, my episode with Dr. Pachel. I don't know if that'll come out. That'll probably come out before this one, but, oh, just hearing how he has imposter syndrome, I'm like, really? You like, but you're like a god to me. 

[01:04:20] Yeah. I love it. But that's the thing. Yeah. Like I, I think a lot of people don't realize that all these people who are successful and, and are have these accomplishments. It's the same situation. Mm-hmm. For all of us. It's just some of us have figured it out a little sooner and, but, but then we pour it back into other people and that's why I do wanna have some of the bigger names on here so that I can show people, look, it's not just you. 

[01:04:43] Yeah. Oh yeah. I think it's really important to remember too that, um, you know, life, I'm, I'm moving my hand like a roller coaster right now. Uh, that is life, right? Yes. I mean, sometimes you can coast and you can go fast or, and you're way up in the air and you know, people are [01:05:00] envious and you're killing it. 

[01:05:01] But it might not be like that tomorrow, actually. Like, you might be really struggling tomorrow and you're gonna dip on that roller coaster, and you're gonna need the support of, of the people around you who know what it's like. Um, because nobody stays in this, you know, really confident, amazing spot forever. 

[01:05:16] They don't, you know, that's not progress. That's not life, you know? No. You're gonna feel really good one day and you're gonna, something might happen or. Or whatever circumstances, good or bad change and yeah. And things aren't great the following day. So having that support is really helpful. Um, people who love you and believe in you and get it, you know, the, the believe in you is important. 

[01:05:37] Right. Sometimes I need, you know, my friend Rebecca, is that for me, sometimes I just need someone to remind me Yes. That, that I'm, I'm pretty awesome and worth it. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Like, remind me of how awesome I am, cuz I need to hear it. Like, and, and I think you developed those friendships and, and colleagues within the community and you have your people. 

[01:05:56] Like I have my friend Jenna, every time I make an [01:06:00] episode, I have her listen to it before I put it out cuz I'm like, does this sound good? Did I sound stupid? Did I say that right? And she's like, Mandy, Stop. Like you, I mean, I know I need to tell you, but like, this is good. Mm-hmm. And I'm just like, okay, I know what I'm doing, thank you. 

[01:06:14] Like, but sometimes you need that check-in and that reassurance and that's okay. We can't be fully confident all the time. If we were, we'd be so cocky, like, and no one likes that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has just been such an awesome conversation. I feel so just like fulfilled and warm and tingly because it's just, it, it's so nice to hear these conversations and, and have them with other people and know that it, there is a shift starting to happen and mm-hmm. 

[01:06:46] I am noticing it more and more. I don't know if that's cuz of the podcast or it's because more people are talking about it, but people are paying attention to their mental health and it's making me really happy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. It's so needed. Well, we just, we, we don't [01:07:00] realize our job is a lot and we deserve to take a break from it and, and take care of ourselves so that we can keep doing what we love. 

[01:07:07] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think the other shift that's happening is that dog training is becoming much bigger. So, and I don't mean just more popular, I mean more, um, there's more options. I wouldn't call myself a dog trainer anymore. Um, I'm not sure. Exactly what, I guess I'm closer to a coach. Um, maybe there's more people. 

[01:07:28] I've seen therapist saying that, you know, um, I mean, I am a family dog mediator that might be a little bit closer. You know, I'm much more educator. I'm advocate. I'm much more interested in helping, you know, canine and human just communicate better and not mm-hmm. By teaching, here's what sit means. Here's what leave it means. 

[01:07:46] It's much more about how can we meet both of our needs. And those needs are environmental, they're emotional, they're, you know, physical. They're so, so that's what I'm doing right now. Right. That's who I am. And I think that [01:08:00] people in our field don't feel as boxed in as maybe it, it felt 10 years ago. 

[01:08:06] You're so right. I didn't even talking about it. I, I do realize that, but before I didn't really. Even notice that, but you're right, like it, I am seeing more people focusing on the bond and, and mm-hmm. The connection. And that's something I liked more with training. It wasn't just, you know, here this is what we do when you know, your dog sees a squirrel, this is how we get past traffic. 

[01:08:27] It's, you know, okay. How do you change how they feel in this situation? How do they feel in the situation? Are you noticing that? Like Yeah, it's, it's a different approach to the traditional training. Right? Right. Yeah. It just feels like there's more options. I think it's a very exciting time in our field. 

[01:08:45] Um, with that excitement become, becomes stress and, you know, worry and anxiety, but it's also pretty exciting. Yeah. Well, with, with any growth in, in pivoting and change, it's gonna feel it, it's not gonna feel how it should air [01:09:00] quotes. Mm-hmm. But it, it'll, if it feels good to you, then you're on the right path. 

[01:09:05] And I think mm-hmm. That my episode with, uh, Gio and Taylor from Smart Bitch really magnified that of you can just make your own rules and set your business up the way you want. And it can work like they're walking proof. Yeah. Oh, because I lost internet. I haven't listened to it yet because I lost yesterday, so I'm excited to listen to it. 

[01:09:24] Um, oh, thank you for that reminder though. Oh, good. You know, my, I've been, I've been feeling like, oh, okay, so where am I going professionally at this point? Right. You can probably tell based on my description of kind of who I am, um, I don't have a concrete idea of exactly what I want to do, what I wanna market with mut sense with, with my new, you know, with my new business. 

[01:09:49] Mm-hmm. Um, you know, what exactly does that look like? I have all these qualifications, I have all this experience. Experience, but what feeds my soul? So, and how can you [01:10:00] shift that to work for you business wise and emotionally? You know, so, so thank you for that reminder though, because the truth is, is that you can do what you want and you can monetize it. 

[01:10:11] You can actually, you just need to talk to the right people. You need to figure out how to get that help. You know, it sometimes it's like, oh God, but, but should I have like, some sort of, you know, job on the side that gives me benefits and stuff, right? Uh, you know, that's not me. So, no, same for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put, put my eggs in this basket for right now, and I'm gonna believe in myself and I'm gonna try and get the help that I need to make this work. 

[01:10:39] So, you know, I might need some more help with marketing soon. Um, they probably need some help with my therapist to really figure out my. What path is right for me? Um, you know, you, you reach out, you get that help, and I really think you can do what you want and you can make money doing it. Right. And on that note of, of, you know, being able to reach out for help, you can [01:11:00] and, and don't feel like you can, and don't feel that that resource isn't available to you because. 

[01:11:06] You know, I know money's tight. I know this economy is crazy right now. I am on a budget. I do not have a savings, but mm-hmm. It's a matter of finding and networking and, and that can look like Facebook groups, that can look like, you know, messaging someone that you really look up to and saying, Hey, I really like how you did this with your business. 

[01:11:26] Um, let me know if, if you have time to schedule a meeting and, and we can bounce ideas around. I really look up to you. Um, and most times like people are gonna say yes because they wanna see others succeed. It's. Yes, it's so true. I have, I have reached out to Dr. Paco, who on three occasions has answered me, which was like, oh, you are so lovely. 

[01:11:45] I know they're, they're like, um, oh, sometimes if I want advice from, like someone I really admire and, and I get so much out of this, I'll join one of their webinars because there's a q and a section and I know that my question is probably gonna be helpful for someone else. [01:12:00] So I will ask those questions during that q and a and like, like big names in our field. 

[01:12:05] Actually aren't all that unapproachable. Like they, they're the most approachable. They want to help you. Yes. They want to lift you up. I think I know that that feeds my soul. So my, my role really with Tully's training now, the other company I work with is much more of a mentor and helper for our young Oh, I love that. 

[01:12:25] That's great. Um, and I love that, like, it is, it is so good for me because so many of us trainers are teachers at heart and that is what feeds our soul. So, you know, helping younger trainers maybe avoid the mistakes I made and just helps exactly. Help them up. Um, it's fun. It feels good for me. So I just can just imagine, you know, for, for someone who might have more of a following or whatever, it probably feels really good for them to be able to help too. 

[01:12:49] Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, yeah, exactly. And. Yeah. So, so don't feel like that is out of your realm. You can reach out to people. This is, [01:13:00] I I people may seem intimidating and the second you talk to them, you're like, oh wait, they're human. And they're very nice. Yeah. And they actually are very nice to talk to. 

[01:13:09] Like, there are plenty of trainers I have spoken to and I'm like, I think they lightweight hate me. And then I talk to them and I'm like, oh, you like me just as much as I like you. This is a great conversation. So like, there are so many ways to get help, that don't require money in, in, in spreading your budget thinner. 

[01:13:26] And I want people to know that, that it's out there and it takes time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just takes time. It takes time and it takes, it takes that work, you know, bring it back full circle. Um, actually I hate calling it work. It takes that investment in yourself. Yes. Where you learn your needs. You pay attention to taking care of yourself and not just in the generic way of go do some yoga and do go do some breathing. 

[01:13:50] Just devote some time to yourself. You gotta take Yes, yes. That is what I always try to say. And, and that's why I like, you know, for me in the mornings, that's how I need to start my mornings [01:14:00] with myself taking care of myself. Even if I, that is me just grabbing my coffee, not checking social media for like an hour or two cuz my brain is still waking up and I just read like a chapter of my book and that's what I tell myself. 

[01:14:13] I'm not getting up from this chair until I finish a chapter and then I will move on with my day. Oh, such good advice. I have noticed a giant, it's trial and error shift. Oh, I get it. I have noticed a giant shift. It is, I know. I would say in our generation or I, I don't know, let's, let's say 30 somethings to 50 somethings, we probably almo probably the larger majority of, of, of us check our social media in the morning and then it sucks you in first thing for an hour and then all of a sudden it's seven 30 and you know, you. 

[01:14:45] Uh, feel awful. You're down already and you haven't gotten outta bed. You haven't even had any coffee yet. You just like, oh God. I stopped doing that. I feel better. I wake up. I have a routine. I make the coffee. I go sit [01:15:00] outside with the dogs. I, I do not, I might look at my phone to check the weather briefly, whatever. 

[01:15:06] Yeah. But I am not touching that Instagram icon. I'm not, it's hard though, that temptation's there. My husband who will wake up and I'll feel him turn over and I'll look over at him and I'm like, why are you on your phone? You just woke up. You haven't even gotten outta bed. And he's like, I just was checking. 

[01:15:21] And I'm like, for what? Right. Who is trying to get ahold of you at 5:00 AM It should be me and I'm not bugging you. But yeah, I think really how you start your day, and I was going to do an episode on this, but I was like, oh, people don't really care, but maybe it does matter and, and habits of how you start your day matters. 

[01:15:42] Mm-hmm. Knocking down that first domino block of your day that is going to affect how you move through it. You were starting your morning checking social media, checking, you know, these stupid influencers with their pretty lives and seeing what a dog trainer's posting. Maybe someone left you a shitty comment on something, you're immediately taking [01:16:00] that in and that's how you're starting your day. 

[01:16:01] Yep. Yep. It's not good because even if it's positive stuff, a lot of that stuff just makes you feel bad about yourself, you know, if there are other people in or you need to get to work. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh shoot, I'm definitely not doing enough. Right. Just none of it is a good way to start your day. I love your idea of the book. 

[01:16:18] I think the book is a great idea and I mean, if you don't like reading, maybe that's just a matter of like, you know, you go journal if you feel like it, like whatever it is, go sing a, sing a song, whatever, go for a walk, whatever it is, go dance to some Fleetwood Mac, whatever it is. Like it's different every day and I'm not perfect about it, but the temptation's there. 

[01:16:36] I have my phone next to me. I mean, I don't, I don't think, maybe, again, for our generation, I don't think it'll ever be a. Won't, it will never not be a conscious choice. Right? Like I probably for the rest of my life in the morning, I am going to have to remind myself, Nope, do not open that social media yet. 

[01:16:52] We're not ready for that yet. You're training yourself probably always gonna have to do that. No, that's so the case, and it's like sometimes I'll like hit a boring point in my book [01:17:00] and I'll be like, maybe I open. No, no, no, no, no. Because I know if I open it, I'm gonna get stuck for like anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour and then there goes that time and then I lose any time I get for myself and then I rush through my day. 

[01:17:13] Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. And you know what? I'm still gonna have those days, right. We're not perfect, you know, probably once or twice a every couple of weeks it's gonna happen. But again, you're gonna learn, you're gonna say, Ooh, you know what? That day didn't feel great, right? Tomorrow. Yes, exactly. Well, thank you for making me feel less alone in that and reassuring me that it is a struggle, but also a work. 

[01:17:39] Um, it has just been so great talking with you. You were just, oh, you too, such a joy. You were just, your energy is so awesome and I hope people really pick up on that in the episode. Oh, yay. Thank you so much. Well, I will let you go, but I hope to have you on for another episode. There are so many other things that we can talk about that I'm sure people would love to hear. 

[01:17:57] Yeah, yeah. Oh, I would love to, I think [01:18:00] this, this mental health conversation, when I first saw the you post about this podcast, I was instantly like, it affected me physically. I was like, huh. Yep. That's what we need. Like, oh, that makes you, thank you. So happy. I love Woof Cultr. Like I already was very, I was a fan of yours, and when you started this, it really was like a yes. 

[01:18:23] This is, this is what we need. Um, you know, we, we really, we really need this. We need to remember how to work through these, these issues because no one else is helping us. You know? So let's talk about it. Thank you for saying that. I, I feel like when I hear that from people, it just makes me feel like, okay, this. 

[01:18:41] This is the right path. People want this. Like I am doing the right thing and I, you are, I really care about dog professionals and I don't want them to feel that way. So I'm glad that you say that. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, I'm just, I'm just gonna say again, like it is very evident that you care about dog professionals, not just Oh, good. 

[01:18:58] Through the podcast, [01:19:00] also through your other business. It's like this stuff's for you. You know? That's like what all of everything you produced, that's what it says, which is a really lovely thing. So thank you so much. Oh, so much. R plus. Yay. 

[01:19:11] And if you found this podcast helpful, you like what we're doing here at the leash mind, leave a comment, subscribe, like tag us on social media, just give us a little r plus and we'll be back with another episode.